Compassionate Collaboration w/Mikkel Becker

In Episode 2 of Season 2  your host Mandy Boutelle welcomes Mikkel Becker from Fear Free Pets for a compelling discussion that continues the themes explored in the previous episode with Karen Chapdelaine. The conversation delves into the evolving landscape of the dog training industry, shedding light on its transition from a competitive to a more collaborative environment, especially post-2020. Mandy and Mikkel tackle the crucial topic of mental health support (or the lack thereof) in dog training courses, emphasizing the emotional toll that trainers often bear in their profession. They explore how deeply trainers are affected by the emotional challenges their clients face, discussing the impact of these experiences on their personal well-being and business operations.

The episode also addresses critical issues like compassion fatigue, imposter syndrome, and the necessity of self-care for trainers. Mandy and Mikkel engage in a candid conversation about the journey towards a more supportive and empathetic community among dog trainers, celebrating the positive changes while acknowledging the challenges that remain. The discussion also highlights the adorable guest appearances of Mikkel's pugs, adding a light-hearted element to the episode. Listeners can expect an insightful, engaging, and heartwarming episode that not only covers professional challenges and developments in the dog training industry but also provides a deeper understanding of the personal journeys of trainers navigating their mental health and professional growth.
---
Want to support Mikkel Becker?
Follow her on IG- @mikkelbecker
https://fearfreepets.com/about/our-team/mikkel-becker/

If you are new to The Leashed Mind Podcast, Mental Health & Dog Training then please don't forget to like, follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
@theleashedmind on Instagram
@theleashedmind.pod on Facebook
@theleashedmind on YouTube

Support the show & help us continue making great content for listeners everywhere - cancel anytime, no commitment!

Think you might have some great advice, experience or story you'd like to share with our audience? Head on over to https://www.theleashedmind.com/ and scroll down to our guest application!

Transcript

0:04

Welcome back to the Leashed Mind podcast. I am your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Mikkel Becker from Fear Free Pets. We kind of talk a little bit about the things that we talked about in the last episode with Karen Chapdelaine from Timeless Dog, touching on, again, the days of the dog training industry. And I mean, when I say early, I don't even mean that early. I'm talking like anytime before like 2018 even of just kind of that competitiveness and how there was this like mean spirited element of like, don't post what I'm posting, even though we all teach the same thing and Um, how people can get irritated online and just all of those things. Um, but also we kind of touched on the lack of emotional support that happens when we go into these training courses. Doesn't matter what it is, any of the training courses out there. there is little guidance or support when it comes to mental health and how working with clients. And there are dogs in these sometimes really big behavior situations, how that impacts our mental health and how sometimes we're kind of taking on the emotional burden that our clients are dealing with because we care so much and we want to help, but we don't realize how that affects us and how that really can bleed into our business and how that affects how we feel about ourselves as trainers and business owners. we talk about that. we also delve into that evolution that Karen and I talked about as well, of how things have gotten to a more collaborative point with dog trainers and helping each other out. especially, you know, again, after 2020, I feel like a lot of us kind of noticed our mental health and how we were reacting to each other. It's slowly evolved into something really awesome, and I'd love to see that with trainers and just helping one another. we also discussed the challenges of maintaining personal mental well being while working in such a demanding, emotionally taxing profession. our conversation touches on themes of compassion fatigue, imposter syndrome, and the importance of self care when we are managing our businesses. We also emphasize the need for the support that we need in these training courses. Because I think a lot of us, we need to find a better way to set up these newer training generations so that we are seeing less burnout. Burnout is going to happen, but I think if we can set it up in a way where we can get ahead of it and notice. The cues for burnout. So this conversation is awesome. There are a lot of guest appearances from McHale's Pugs. So you got to watch the YouTube version because they are so cute. let's get into the episode. It's going to be awesome. Mikael, I am so excited to have you on the podcast and talk all things mental health with you. Thank you so much for coming on. Oh my god, I am so excited to be here with you today and just to have this opportunity to have real talk and real conversations about what's really going on under the surface. Because, you know, for years we do not discuss that in society and specifically in this industry. I, you know, we were talking a little bit before we hit record about how we have taken all these courses and none of our mentors in that process. Or just in the course, like, ever talked about mental health, ever. Like, I don't know about you, but like, it was never touched on. It was just, here are the mechanics, here is some behavior, this is how we work with clients, a little bit. But like, you're kind of on your own. Yes, no, totally. I think the only thing I ever learned was like, how to block out a schedule. Like, so that could help you with your mental health. But that's like, probably the closest thing I ever got. Yeah, totally surface. I just remember getting in the industry and going to actually, I remember my first APDT conference was like probably, and it's so, it's so different now this is, this is a lot, but it was, I think it was in, it was in Kentucky and just the atmosphere was so different than it is even today, like where it was so much more like competitive and I don't even know what year this was. This is probably 2006 to 2008 timeframe, but It was, like, so competitive. People were backstabbing, kind of mean, like, that, like, one speaker would get up and say something, and then the next one would get up, and they'd be like, I can't believe that they just said that. Like, like, that's, don't, don't listen to what they said there. And it was like, whoa, I should have told my mom. I'm like, dude, this is, this is strange. Like, this is so weird. but you know, even then, like, there were still people that were so good and so kind and, uh, R. K. Anderson was one of the first kind of friends I had in that, that industry and, do you, do you know him? No. so he, he's the creator of the Gentle Leader and he was like this, like, yeah, and he was the coolest guy, like, he just did a lot for behavior and in the vet world and, He was like, you know, in his 80s, 90s, still going to conferences. Oh my God. Yeah. He was the coolest guy and just really kind of a pioneer in the behavior field and a huge supporter of being able to have education. But it was cool to talk to him because at the time also people were so afraid of like anthropocentrism. So like they say animals have this emotion or this emotion and thank God it's come so far from that to like actually show, you know, scientifically, like animals have such a huge range of emotions and they are so capable, but like back in the day you had to be so. Careful. And he, he would tell me, um, I was talking to my mom and I one night at dinner and he's like, you know, I think what's going to happen is we're going to see more and more that ability to like prove that animals have these, great depths of emotions, including that ability to love, which of course we all know that with our pets, but like people back in that time, like it was like, so taboo to even like talk about emotions or like, When I would write articles at the time for Pet Connection, like, I would, uh, sometimes, you know, get, get backlash or get in trouble if I made it seem like I was doing this to animals. Yeah, an animal is feeling this, feeling, feeling fear, feeling, and they're like, well, you can't say what an animal is feeling because it's, you know, that's anthropomorphizing. And it's like, but it's so crazy because that's really what fear free is all about, is like, the intention of what animals are feeling. Yeah, and they have such a capacity for all of these emotions, like people really just deny for so long and we didn't really have that evidence to show it and now it's like so cool that it's there and we can show it for animals and I think we can recognize it more for us as people too, thank God. So, oh my God. Well, that's really far. It's crazy that it's come that far. And I, I really feel like 2020 kind of just changed everyone's approach to mental health because it was all right there in front of our face. Me specifically, I went through a lot of panic attacks and it really changed how I approached my mental health because we couldn't leave the house and it was right in front of us. but just knowing that, like, Cause now I feel like everything is about how the animal feels. It's all about like how we approach it and making sure they are feeling comfortable and confident and safe in the situations. And that's just, that's so crazy. That shift, but isn't that crazy? That's already a way to like gauge of just how much the industry's already changed. that was like, well, almost. 20 years ago. So, yeah, it's just seems, yeah, it's so crazy to think about that. And, you know, thank God. And, and thank God, like, I love that there's so much more out there for mental health for, for people too. I, I know, like, it's like mental health awareness. Time right now. And, you know, and thinking about like, um, our, our good friend Dr. Sophia Yen, like, you know, growing up and starting like, uh, Dr. Yen and Dr. Anderson Anderson were too, like kind of those people that I looked up to that, you know, kind of helped to paint the way. Yeah. Yeah. And. You know, Dr. Yan, she was just such a, a strong person, just this person who just, you know, really was so put together and had so many things together. And I think now, you know, it's like, and at the time, like, she's starting to open up a little bit about kind of what she's going through, but to very, you know, very few people. And my, my dad was lucky enough to, you know, have her be able to open up to him, but. It's just hard. It's hard because it's like, you know, Dr. Yim is so able to, you know, treat these animals who were having these really big issues and big mental issues, but it was really hard for her to feel comfortable to do that for herself. Yeah. And to really think about, you know, doing mental health, uh, really care on her own or like thinking about medications. And I think that's the hard thing is like, there's some kind of weird. stigma that we can have in our own minds sometimes, or like where we think, okay, we can do it all. We can tackle it all when really it's like, yeah, to give ourselves grace and like treat ourselves with the same kind of compassion we would have for like the animals in our care. I think that's so important. You, I, I listened to the tales from the vet tech, uh, podcast, which if you guys aren't listening to that, it's the podcast by Tabitha Kusera. So awesome. Um, I heard you mention and it's something that I have always had in my own head on repeat is I don't have the compassion that I have for others for myself. It never makes its way back to me. I have always been the meanest and hardest to myself. And you know, that comes from childhood trauma, you know, having abusive step parents, not physically, but mentally and psychologically abusive growing up, you get into that negative headspace of not good enough. Don't deserve this recognition. Um, that bleeds so much into our career and how we approach things, if that is the mindset we have. And so I'd love to talk about that a little bit more in your experience with that, with your career. Oh my God. I think that that's so true. It's. It's hard. It's like, you know, and I think that those, those are the things that make you I think push harder. And so it's like you use, you have those sides where I'm like, okay, that's probably where I got to where I was, was, you know, feeling like, okay, I have to do more. I have to like, you know, people, except what's next. Yes, totally. And next achievement. Yeah, I need to get this certification. I need to do this or go through this class and then it's like hey Where does that come from now that i've done all that, you know, like where where and when do I stop? Yeah It's never enough. And so there's like the positive sides where i'm like, okay, I I value education Like but it's you're passionate yeah, but what's really under that is this insecurity and I always like kind of had this like Thought of other, other trainers or people where I'm like, you know, the ones that are just super confident and it doesn't matter kind of, you know, their background, but they just know what they know. And I've never been like that. Like I've, I've never had that kind of like. Self assurance to be like that and same, you know And I think like in some ways there are some positives to that because it makes you more open and makes you be like, okay I actually want to learn more. So you're more open to education. You're more open to other possibilities at the same time it's really debilitating sometimes because and it's also debilitating in the way of like I would catch myself being so Worried or aware of like what is this person feeling? How am I making them feel? how can I change this in a way that like I can help them feel better or them to You know, not feel, uh, you know, upset with me, and Oh my god, you're in my brain right now. That is exactly Isn't that crazy? That's that's how it is, it's like Like, did I make them feel negative about me? Like, did I put a weird feeling out there? Do I need to fix that? Like, I am constantly that person asking my spouse, like, are you mad at me? Did I do anything? And it's like, I know I did nothing, but like, it's trauma. Yeah. And that need to like, okay, I need to make, make sure everyone is homeostasis, we're good. Exactly. Yeah. And you take on this responsibility that is just. So big. And then it really makes you, I think, vulnerable to certain people too, that really take advantage of that part of your nature. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, know, the biggest thing that I do now that's helped me so much, whether it's like on video, if it's doing an interview, if it's like writing something, is I just come at it from this. So I have two, two different tattoos on my wrist. I have one says free and the other says truth. And both of those are kind of like guiding principles. For me and like the part of like truth. It's like I just want to like really speak what I honestly feel and to not have any And to kind of do it with this freedom and this abandon and you know, because worrying about judgment. Yeah If anything, I think if you're coming from it from that headspace of always being so concerned You're always going to be on the side of like doing too little than too much and so it's like giving yourself that freedom to be like No, I really need to say this, and sometimes there are those hard truths that it's really difficult to say, especially to people that you care about, but I think, you know, at the end of the day, it's like you are actually, you know, you're doing the right thing by helping them, and you can feel good that you've spoken your truth, you've done what you can, and then, like, leaving it up to them, and, it's hard, but it's like that part of being able to let go and be like, I can't, I can't change another person, they have to want to change themselves, so, You do what you can and then you have to kind of like let it go from there. Oh my god. You guys, just let that sink in for a minute because like really it's, I feel like a lot of times, and this goes back to trauma, this goes to working with clients, but we get caught up in, I need to help them. I need to help them form a training plan. We need to get management under control. I need to set them up in a way that they are going to get help and you know, we're human. Mistakes happen. Things happen. You can't control every situation. You can't control your clients and how they are going to train, how they're going to manage. It's, you're doing the best you can. Providing the information and the tools that you can. After that, it's out of your control. You can check in. You can do homework. But you can't make people change and I think a lot of the times we get into this career because we feel so passionate about helping and Sticking up for I mean, that's why we all love animals that you know we want to be the voice for them and advocate for them and and help people bridge that understanding of how to approach this and then We get caught up of, oh, I didn't do enough. I didn't provide enough information. It's my fault. And we internalize it, and then it turns into imposter syndrome. Then we feel like a shitty trainer. Then we feel like we shouldn't do this anymore. And, oh, hi, that's why Mandy left the industry in 2020, because I got in my own head of thinking. I would never get better at it. and that's okay because I went down a different route and I love what I do now, but I wish I would have stayed with training because it is something I really loved. I loved the practical application of it and. it was the communication with the clients that was hard for me and, and setting realistic goals because come to you with all these problems and they're like, help me. And you're like, yes, great. Especially when you're a green trainer, you're like, I got it all. Let's plan it all. Yes. But then you're like, it, it's hard to. bring them down to earth a little bit and be like, no, you're not going to be able to push your stroller, walk your reactive dog, drink your coffee, and walk on your phone. Yeah. Like, it was so hard to have that, like, come to Jesus moment with them. Because they'd be like, well, what are you talking about? You're the trainer. Why can't you? You should fix this. It's almost like they see those TV shows where the behavior is just fixed. Like, why can't you fix it? And it's like, well, that was filmed over like three to four months. Yeah, exactly. And then in some of those, you know, it's like the behavior is inhibited. It's not really fixed. That's going to come back with a vengeance, you know, but they got lucky when they were filming and there weren't any triggers. Totally. Yeah, totally. And, you know, and especially like, you know, in those, those situations where, you know, you're using more fear force based kind of training, like the dog is shut down and the person doesn't know that when they're in that state of learned helplessness that That's not a good positive state. That's not a calm state. Um, you know, it's that pet is just terrified. They're shut down. They're like inhibiting what, you know, they're, they're outward expression of that behavior that comes from that root emotion, but you aren't fixing that emotion. You're making it worse and you're fixing it. You are taking away their ability to communicate their unrest and how they actually feel. And so when you take that away, there's going to probably be fewer warnings in the future and you're going to get a lot more of a severe bite. Yes. Yeah. So, but yeah, it's like they, you know, someone looks at that and they think, okay, I want you to, to fix this. And, you know, and that's that part of like. being able to, don't know, it's, I almost think of it now because I, like you said, as a green trainer, like I took that stuff so personally and I wanted to fix all these dogs, fix, fix these people, I guess. Let me help you. Yeah. But you can't, you can't, like you can do what you can. And if they take the tools that you've given them, they can make a huge difference for their pet, but They have to be there. They have to be willing to change. And so many times, too, you're working with all these other family dynamics that you don't realize you're going to be working with when you go to training, where it's like, you know, it's kind of marital counseling, relational counseling with their kids. Like, there's so much stuff. Like, I think we don't give ourselves credit for the amount of, like, emotional navigation and, you know, coaching that we have to do because it's for not only that dog or whatever pet we're working with, but it's like this entire family and all of these other people coming into their lives that we're also trying to coach and guide and it's a lot. Well, and like a lot of times I feel like people don't even consider like the whole family dynamic in the training plan because I, you know, I, a lot of us have encountered this. It's been always the wife that contacts you and wants to do the training plan and no offense to husbands because there are some unicorns out there. Mine is one, um, the, it's just, it's always been the situation of wife contacts you for the training plan. And then the other spouse is just like, meh. And then you're like, okay, well, how am I going to make a difference if only one of you was on board? Yeah. Only one of you were listening. I had a training situation where my client had a background in applied behavior analysis. She worked with special needs children and so she had the understanding. So I'm like, great, you're going to understand me. This was the one that was like, I want to walk my reactive dog and drink my coffee and be on my phone. And I'm like, lady. Do we not understand behavior here? Isn't that crazy? That's, it's so, it's so interesting. The disconnect from like children and dog, but it's like, it's the same way we approach it. Yeah. And it's, and it's so, yeah, it's so much of it is like, I think that's the other thing too, that like as, as a newbie trainer, that I feel like I, I could. That I want to help people feel I was just actually talking to a veterinarian about this the other day They were like, you know, I you know, I would love for you to meet my one dog But my other dog is just so cray cray. You would totally judge me and I'm like girl I would not judge you for a minute. Like no, I have I have one of those cray cray Dogs little odious right here. He's so sweet, but he is Panda bear He does. He's so cute. He's the best little guy, but oh my God, he, he is, you know, he's, he's our sensitive soul. Like he's our dog that like. You know, he went through five homes before we got him and, you know, he's just, he's had, had a, had a hard time and so I, I have one of those and you know, some of my trainer friends, like they, you know, they feel embarrassed and ashamed when they have an issue with their puppy that, you know, now as an adult dog and they're like, well, I had, I don't have that excuse that, you know, I had this rescue and I'm like, you know, sometimes there's so much at play, there's genetics, there's this, there's this, you know, we, we, yeah, we still, it's like this burden, you have to have these like picture perfect kids and, That's not realistic. They're individuals. They're just like people, and it's like that is such a burden too that we have unnecessarily, I think. Right, and I feel like a lot of times, and I love that so many trainers are changing the way they do consults and that they're not coming in the house. Like, you know, because that's what we were doing before 2020. We were going in the house and assessing things. And we'd be overstimulated. And a lot of us are neurodivergent and have ADHD. So it was overstimulating going in the house and trying to focus on the client. There's kids in the background, the dogs barking and wanting your attention because you smell like hot dogs. And. It's a whole thing. And so that's changed. And I just, I feel like people are realizing like, Oh, there are easier ways to set ourselves up for this and set the clients up, set the dogs up and not stress and overstimulate everyone else involved. Absolutely. Absolutely. No, that, that is so interesting. It's like thinking about, yeah, what sets you up for success and like. That's, that's a, the, the cool thing about ADHD is like you can get in that hyper focus mode and like I'll get in that sometimes where I'm, I'm like a client and it's like And we can lean into it. Yeah, and you can totally get into it and then, like you said, other times I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting, I, I can feel that deer in the headlights feeling, that panic, that overwhelm where I just feel like, In this I'm like frazzled and that's like you hear everything and you can't think. Yeah. And I think like even just recognizing that because I felt so alone in that too, like, you know, feeling that I'm like, and there'd be days like where I would come back from classes or, you know, classes where it's like, I, I had like a normal, it's just like typical manners class. But then all of a sudden we have this one dog that's just really, really a lot, or this person that's really loud. And it's just like, Oh my God. And those are the days when I would get. come home or I'd be driving home. I'm like, I don't know that I want to be doing this anymore. Like, you know, and just fit, but I, I don't know. It really helped me to get with a good group of trainers and to be able to actually start talking about those things and realize that I'm not alone. Cause I felt so alone in that and realizing that's normal. That's human. Of course you feel that way, but like, I don't know, it's like almost thinking that you, you have this, I don't know, I have this like super human expectation upon myself to fix all these things and to not be upset by these things that, of course you would be upset by it or feel overwhelmed by it. It's, it's kind of a crazy thing when I look back. Well, and it's funny because it's like, you know, any other profession they would prioritize mental health doctors vet. I mean now vets really take care of their mental health like it's about time and so now trainers are starting to get on that and you know, annie phoenix is Starting to work with the people from not warmer vet for trainers and so it's like my hope is that it just keeps getting better, but And this is something that her and I talked about the other day is that a lot of us, so training isn't really considered a profession the Census Bureau. A lot of times we label ourselves as small business owners because that's what we are, but the statistic we're not able to clearly read. of who is leaving the training industry. Um, you know, those that are having a hard time struggling mentally and, you know, losing their lives from this job. We aren't able to see that statistically to really know if there's a difference. Because they're labeled as small business owners, not dog trainers. I had a whole conversation with my husband the other day and I was like, you know, it's not considered a real thing when it's like people work themselves into the ground, doing this, trying to help each other and get so burnt out and we lose so many people that could have been incredible trainers. they got burnt out and overwhelmed and didn't want to do it anymore. And they didn't see a way that that could change. Gosh, that's, that's, yeah, it's hard, hard to hear and, but I can, I totally see that. Yeah, but we don't think about it because it's just, it's like, oh, we're a dog trainer. It's unregulated industry. What are we going to do? And it's just like, well, okay, we can't keep living like this. No, And to, yeah, feel unsupported and to, yeah. Feel alone, feel like it's something wrong with you, or I should be, I don't know. At least for me, that's, that's what how I used to feel is like, there's something wrong with me there. Like I, I need to be, I'm the problem. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm just not good enough sometimes too. I'd always have that, or I'd have that like comparison to other people and yes. Comparison. That's, I know. And it's such, and trying to like do your, your training according to kind of like what works for them and how. You know, what, what makes, but it's like, I think that that's the other thing that I've come a long ways in is like, you know, being able to like give myself freedom to, first of all, not feel like I have to fix everything. So I actually started to limit, like, when I give, and this is really hard because I do want to fix everything, but like, you know, it's, I still have that desire, but I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm only going to give them like. For recommendations, like, because that's all they could handle to handle. Yeah. And like, though, like, statistically, it was like, I think it was on separation anxiety, that if you give more than four instructions, people are going to have less success than if you're giving them fewer instructions. So like, okay, that gives me some relief to not feel like I have to fix everything, you know, having a better timetable. And then, yeah, being able to. think it's like being able to recognize what your gifts are. Cause like some people, like my, my friend Kim Lepick is, I mean, she is the bomb. She's amazing. She's just like this, like amazing trainer. So structured, like she has the best boundaries and like, I mean, I learned so much from her. She was like, and I love that about her. And I'm like. You know, but she appreciated about me that, like, I would always kind of, like, my brain is more creative, I guess, in that way. Like, we're, yeah, yeah, totally. So I would try and follow this formula, but, like, I couldn't do it. I wasn't as good with it. And it's, like, I can, so it's, like, I take, take what I got from her, which is like to have this structure and this kind of outline, but then like give myself grace to like, you know, kind of somewhat freeform it and be able to kind of like, sometimes I pick up on things that I don't think other people pick up on. So it's like, that's, that's kind of the gift in that too. It's like recognizing that, that gift in and of yourself. Like maybe I'm not the best on, you know, having this structure, but I really can't pick up on these other things that maybe other people miss out on. And I can. train this in a different way that maybe nobody's really thought of for this pet and, you know, recognizing that as a strength. So I don't know. I feel like I've given myself a lot more grace and I've just tried to appreciate that part of myself right there. Oh, and you're leaning into your natural talents, which I think a lot of us, you know, it took me years to realize like I'm more creative. I'm not analytical, never will be. And that is a good thing because the world needs creative people. And I feel like. a good chunk of people in this profession. We are creative and that's why we are in an industry where we are using our hands. And we are, you know, it's not sitting in front of a desk all day. I hope not for a lot of us, but it's just being able to tap into what we are naturally good at. But it's going to make our career so much more enjoyable. And I feel like a lot of the times, you know, we have to wear all the hats and we take it all on and then we aren't doing what we're good at. And that is why I had a whole episode with Milena Demartini about delegating because I think people get caught in the, I need to wear the hats, I need to juggle it all because I'm a small business owner. Therefore I do it all and you can, but you're going to peter out and lose steam very quick. And when you're not doing what you're just naturally attracted to and good at, you lose that spark and that drive for keeping going. Cause you're just like, I'm doing admin work. Like, you know, how many days out of the week? When am I actually training? When am I learning? When am I having fun? We got into this because we want to train. We didn't get into this because we wanted to spend, you know, 40 hours in front of the computer. Like, yes, exactly. Exactly. That's exhausting. That's so exhausting. Yeah, and being able to find like someone I think that you can like complement each other and complement each other's strengths. And yeah, that was the thing like sometimes she would like Kim. I she is just the best person but like she and I would complement each other because sometimes there would be certain clients like where she's like, Oh, I just can't, I can't deal with them today. Like, I'm like, I don't know. I like it. Like, I think people are interesting. Like, I like kind of like having, you know, and then I'm like, okay, Kim, you can follow up with the email. Like you did that piece. And it's like, for me, that's hard. That's the hard part. Yeah. I hate thinking through that. Yeah. And like thinking, okay, how do I use my words here? This here and. You know, she's so good. She already has like her pre done, uh, handouts. Like she has all that stuff. And I just, it's hard for me. And so like I would go, you know, like I can work with the people. That part was fun and easier. And, you know, and then she could help me out when I was feeling exhausted there. And, you know, and sometimes don't know, it's like, at least for me, like, you know, recognizing having adults. ADHD and getting diagnosed later, like in life, I, feel like I can recognize that part of myself where I get frazzled or I get burnout and I'm just like in that state of overwhelm and, you know, being able to like get help there and trying to like take advantage of like those, those energy flows because sometimes those things are so much easier. So I'm like, okay, I'll just like bust this out and I'll get this article done. And like, yeah. Two hours, but like I'm trying to do it at a time when I'm not in that flow that thing will take me like five Days like right you do have to be in the certain I'm dying over your pug right now. Like for those that are looking on YouTube, they're just getting such a kick out of it It was just like Just up at your chin like mom just look at me He's my baby He loves when there are interviews because he just gets to sit on my lap and he waits He usually gets treats every once in a while, which I guess I haven't I've been stingy today Sorry dog distraction, but ADHD But no, I think not that we We all need that diagnosis. It's not like, you know, it's, it's not like we're trying to label ourselves because I feel like, you know, we all hate putting labels on animals. It's not what this is. It's getting an understanding so that we can figure out how to change our behavior, how to set up our antecedents. And we're not going to know that without a proper diagnosis. and that is something, I talked with my psychiatrist about this because I had such a struggle with thinking I didn't need my ADHD medication. And I would just be like, you know, I haven't taken it for X amount of days. And she's like, why? It helps you? And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I just, I feel like I can power through it, and like, I don't need it, but she's like, okay, well, how about instead of thinking of it as, you know, this is what you are, and this is your diagnosis, it's, this is how your brain works, and these are the ways we can set it up so that it can work in your favor and not stress you out. And I was just like, you just like explained dog training a little bit to me. Yeah, that's. And you see that overlap a lot. Oh my god. Falling asleep looking up. He's so. No, that is the interesting thing. Yeah, like we're. I mean, I know that I have the same thing with my medication sometimes, like, where I'm like, Oh, I'm, I'm okay. You know, I don't necessarily need it. And, um, God, now I'm getting distracted. It's so cute! I can't open it! I gotta give him a treat. I, I'm like, You have to! The torture! Yeah, I know. Oh my God. I feel like everyone's gonna have to jump on YouTube and see this. Oh, so funny. Oh my goodness, you So I'm sorry, that was my squirrel moment. I forgot what we were talking about. No, it's too good. yeah. Just ADHD and need medication. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And to be able to, like, understand yourself better. Oh, like, just like we were talking, this is my squirrel moment. Yeah. I'm coming back. Shiny. Yeah. Um, you know, like, knowing that about yourself and knowing how, how you work the best, like. I know we were talking about like having a treadmill desk, like that has been such a lifesaver for me because then I can do that stuff that sucks so bad, which is like for me, it's like the email, those things, like if I'm walking on my treadmill, I have my under desk elliptical, like that helps so much or engages your brain. It does. It totally engages like manually starting our brain. Yes, totally. And I, I don't know if this is the way for you, but like sometimes like when I get that stage of burnout to you and I think that this is just, mean, so for some of that, that, that stuff, that's just taxing work where it's just repetitive stuff, like whether it's like taxes, for instance, or certain things like that. Like, that's where I'll turn on a show, like a show that, like, I can just kind of watch in the background. Comfort show, yeah. Yeah, that helps me feel like, okay, this is better. Or I'll turn on some good music, like something gets me, like, pumped up. Because otherwise, I'm like, I just, even with medication sometimes, I'm like, I'm just really struggling with this. So finding some way to make that situation better for yourself and, and not so stressful. You're setting up your environment. Yes, that's true. Like, that's what it is. But I feel like, again, we know all of this for dog training but we never think to train ourselves and set ourselves up that way. And that's, I love that you say that you turn on TV too, because I do that too and I always feel guilty. be like on the couch when I have to do the mundane, like repetitive work of like uploading designs on the website and I'm like, alright, this is going to take so long. three hours and I don't want to sit at my desk, I will fall asleep or get distracted and walk away. And so I'll be like, okay, I'm sitting on the couch. I have a snack, turning on a show might get distracted. That's okay. and my husband will be like, are you working? I'm like, yes, I'm working. It's just, it's in the background. It just keeps me focused because otherwise. You get, you're just like, I don't want to do this, this is awful, it sucks, and I'm not going to be able to focus. Yeah, and you're going to put it off so much longer. Yes! When it's like something that does not take that long. No, no, but yeah, it's like, just make it, make it better, make it less, less stressful, more enjoyable, and you're going to get it done. Like, yeah, I get my little, make myself a little special drink, like, it's just, you know, Fresca and cranberry juice or whatever it is. Just suck it in! Yeah! Yeah, I have that and you have your show and yeah, it just it makes it go by so much faster because otherwise it is it's kind of Kind of torturous when you're like sitting there and you're trapped at your desk and Right. And you're like, no one else is gonna do this. I have to. Yeah. It doesn't take a lot of brainpower kind of work either, right? Yeah. And so you can have those things going on if it's gonna make you feel better in the moment. Yeah. I, you know, I, I have plenty of, so I, I do a bunch of random things. I do design work, I do the podcast, I do a lot of things and. Half of my job and in the tasks I have, I'm not sitting at my desk because there are certain tasks where I'm like, I know I'm not going to be able to focus in that environment. I might go sit in a big comfy chair. I might go work at the kitchen table. It's whatever I know I'm needing in that moment. And that's okay. Like, I just, I feel like a lot of times we get in this, like, this is how I have to do it because this is how. XYZ does it, and they're successful, but it's like, but your success isn't going to be the same as theirs. No. Your business isn't going to be the same as theirs. The way your brain works is probably not the same as theirs. Yeah, and like, even like, as you're saying this, I'm like, I'm, yeah, as you said, there's so many parallels to like dog training, and I'm even thinking like, what kind of emotional state are you in in that situation? Right! Yeah. Or if you're a woman, like, where are you at in your cycle, because that really messes you up. Yes. It definitely does. Yeah. As I was saying right, right before getting on this today, I was like, Oh, crumb, I forgot it was a video. And so, yeah, I had the big pimple on my nose and I'm like, Oh my God. I'm like covering it up. And, but yeah, no, it's like sometimes, yeah, you'll have those times where you feel high energy or low energy and like, there'll be days, like I, I'm telling you, like, I should, I should, I wish I could like make, uh, some, amount of Proceed from the treadmill desk sales that I've made probably I'm like, I freaking love that thing because I hate exercise like I really do but like I will but I I also I get that stir crazy feeling and that during the headlights feeling sometimes when I'm Working and it's like, I don't get that when I'm on my treadmill desk and there'll be days where I walk like, you know, eight miles easy, sometimes 15 miles, which that's a crazy day. I don't normally do that. Usually my typical is like, you know, four miles, but it's like, so nice. Cause I get that done without, you know. You don't have to go for a walk. Yeah, don't need to leave. Yeah, it's so nice and, but yeah, and then there are some days though where I'm like, gosh, even like two miles feels like a lot and I'm like, oh, then I'll get those thoughts. I'm being lazy or whatever. I'm like, no, like, it's just you have, it's, it's normal to have those energy changes in your life. Oh my God. I think that's so important because I, I know for me, but I'm sure a lot of us feel this way too of just. We try to set up habits in a way where it's like, okay, this is my morning routine. This is how it's going to work, but it's not going to be the same every day. Some days you might wake up, you know, this morning I woke up and was not feeling my normal sparkly self and that's okay. I just have to adjust it and move through my day gentle and in a way that I love myself and I want myself to do. Good, but our energy isn't going to be the same sometimes, you know, we'll have a full book of clients and we're just like, how am I going to get through this? it's just, it's remembering that we love what we do. Our clients are hiring us because we are the professional and they are seeking our advice. No one is giving you these huge unrealistic expectations, but yourself. And that is just the negative self talk that you can just, you know, they, that, I call that bad Mandy. Like, bad Mandy needs to shut up. She needs to go away. Like, get out of here. And I've, I've, it takes practice. It's work. It's training. We have management plans in, you know, place for us. But lot of the times my self talk will start getting negative and I'll just be like, shut up. Go, like you don't need to be here and I had a whole conversation with Tabitha about, you know, a lot of times we get into our heads and we have that negative self talk and we'll just be like, Oh, these people don't like me. I didn't get enough likes on this video. This real only got this many views. That's okay. You know, not every single thing is going to be perfect, and I think that we always need that, you know, we grew up in social media, so we all need that, you know, like me, like me. Engage with me. You're not engaging with me. You don't like me. But the right people will engage with you. The right people will like your content, and I will say this repeatedly, but the people on social media are not paying you, so don't put so much effort in something that isn't, you know, fueling your life. Yes, absolutely. And be okay taking a break. Like there's some weeks like we're, you know, even my, my Instagram, normally I'm on there a lot more and, but I'll get in the flow sometimes and like, it's okay to not post every, every single week. Like, I think that that's a burden. It becomes a burden and social media becomes like not fun when you are. Putting so much pressure on yourself. And then yeah, you can feel the mood, like, yeah, go ahead and post that. Or if you feel passionate about something, that's like the perfect time to do it. At least for me, it's like, yeah, when I try and schedule stuff out, cause a lot of people will, which I think it's awesome. If you are the type of person that can just like schedule this post out and that, that post out, like, cool. I love that. And I wish I was that way, but I'm not that way. Like, but if I'm in the, in the mood or in the moment or something is really exciting, like, you know, that's, that's when I'm going to post it. Yeah. And those, that content always gets far more likes, because I'm actually feeling it, versus like, Right, it's not automated, and like, meh. Totally. So I think it's, I think it's okay to do that, and to not feel so pressured that you have to, know, have a certain thing done, and Because yeah, otherwise it really, it becomes so stressful. And also to be okay, you know, in some situations, like when there are those negative voices, you know, you don't have to keep those people honestly on your page. Like it's okay to kick people out. It's your page. It's your space. Yes, I am a big advocate for blocking to leave. It's, you know, it's not worth your energy. And like, I know there are instances where it is a good situation to respond in a nice way, acknowledge someone asking a question. Yes, of course. But still, you don't have to do it if it's going to drain you and like me. I'm an overthinker. And so I have a habit of I'll send a message or send a response and then I will pick through it and be like, Oh, did I say that right? Did, should I not have said it that way? Was there a tone? Did they get my correct tone? Did I use too much tone? Was I bitchy? And it's just like, Oh. God, the effort that goes into that, was it worth me responding? Yeah. No, I, I feel you 100 percent right there. That, like, yep, that's me. So, I get it. I get it. Yeah, and like sometimes you'll see people like where it's like, okay, like you'll, you'll get those little wins, but sometimes you just literally can't win. I mean, uh, this is just an example like I was putting on because I, I was made aware of this in like the last few years. It's like, you know, traveling with your pet. Yes, not everyone's going to have like a, a safe travel harness or carrier for their pet, but the more I've learned about it, the more I'm like, God, this is like really, and I don't think most people know how dangerous it is for pets to be in these travel devices that aren't actually, Like crash tested and approved. So like to me, I'm like, I, I want to like share that message, like just how dangerous some of those systems could be like a, a zip line, for instance, the zip line, uh, car tethers or the, the bungee, or like they have like the booster seat car travels, like, like none of those, uh, that I, uh, like at least on the center of pet safety, like all of those are like. far more dangerous to your pet than just riding loose. And they're more dangerous to other people, too, because it kind of slingshots the animal and, you know, and it can, and like those certain harnesses that are marketed for travel, but I haven't actually been crashed tested and approved. They're going to actually cause even more internal damage to the animal. So, like, I feel like I'm like trying to, you know, advocate for animals and be like, okay, you know. Just, just so you're aware, like, this is what you can do, and these are some safe options, like, it's really worth, honestly, it's worth that investment, because you are going to be protecting your pets, uh, you know, by getting that certain crate, carrier, harness, whatever it might be, but even on that, when I posted that, it's like, You know, how dare, how dare you? Yeah, like, it was like, how dare you do this? And like, I do this, and I use the booster seat. Yeah, yeah, you make me feel like a bad person. I'm like, I'm really, But that's not the intention. No, it's not. And that's the hard part. I think that's the thing too. Just having humor in it and realizing no matter what you do, like, you know, you're going to get criticism and you're going to always have some people that push back. And so sometimes it's like you can say your thing and then you just ignore them. But I mean, there are those people that are repeatedly critical and, you know, and just are bringing a bad voice and they, they don't change. That's where, know, that's where maybe they just, yeah, you don't need them on your page. Like why, why waste that energy? And this is another thing I said with Tabitha, but it's just you're not it made for everybody and your clients You're not gonna cater to everyone. It's going to be specific people that work for you And you know that's why Woof Cultr has worked because it's very specific and niched and I have learned to very much like weed out and find my audience where I know like These people care, they are nice, and if they are not nice, they are not allowed on my page, because I don't have the energy for it. I spent way too much of my career fighting for myself and, you know, trying to be like, no, like, don't tell me this isn't right. This is what I'm doing. If you don't like it, get out. And it's, you know, but of course you're a bitch for doing that and it's like for defending myself and, and advocating for my page and my space and my business. How? It's just that gets me fired up because I'm like, I feel like that part of being a strong woman that is such a valuable thing. And I think we do, we have to get rid of that. Feeling of like, you know, and it's almost like I feel like you preface it or I mean, I preface it sometimes in the past. I have I'm like, I'm not meaning to be a bitch, but here's this thing. And it's like, and why do we need to soften that delivery? Like, you don't need to and it's not anything personal. And you're saying stuff that like a guy could say, and it's not a problem. And a man wouldn't approach it that way. Never, never. And it's just you being strong. And like, I think that's where, you know, I really, really appreciate my my dad for that. Because he's, um, Always, always supported me sticking up for myself and being a strong woman and, you know, and that's unusual, I think, in our culture, because so many women, you know, are, yeah, made you feel like they, you know, they're, they're the problem when they're standing up for themselves. And, you know, I, I just. Yeah, I, I, I celebrate strong women and you know, I want that for others. And think so many women, it's like, you know, any of my friends and people in the industry, it's like all of us doubt ourselves so much and second guess ourselves so much. And, and, you know, it's like, I think giving yourself the freedom, like you need to like advocate for yourself and respect yourself the way that you would other people, because you wouldn't put that on anybody else. That was your friend in that situation. You'd be like. You go girl, they deserve that, like, I'm pretty sure you're doing the right thing, but then it's like when it's ourselves, it's like we have this like crazy, I minimize, yeah, and it's like, you know, letting that go and be like, no, I think it's like having kind of justice for yourself in those situations because, you know, it's like, I think sometimes we just put up with so much stuff and then we keep putting up with it and it's like, You know, and that's not healthy. And like you said, it's like it leads to burnout. It leads to those feelings of like, this is so negative. I don't want to do this. This is so exhausting. And you get to that really low point in life. And it's like, no, you need to stand up for yourself. Like, that's good to stand up for yourself and to call things like they are rather than tippy toe and pretend like things don't exist. You know, that's, yeah, so I, I could go on that for a while. No, it's great. Yeah. Well, and I think it is good to stand up for ourselves and say like, no, this isn't okay. I'm not tolerating this. But at the same time, don't, of course, you know, I, I feel like it just needs to be said, but like, don't do it in a mean and condescending way where you're tearing somebody else down because then it's, you're just adding to the problem. But I think everyone knows that. Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're so right in just, in another thing, God, I keep mentioning Tabitha. I love Tabitha. I love Tabitha. One of my good friends. She's awesome. I love her. But, you know, she was hyping me up about Woof Cultr on the episode. And I was like, you know, to toot my own horn and my body language went like this. And so those that are watching on YouTube, I kind of just curled and tucked in and she was like, that is so interesting that your whole body language shifted even though you were trying to talk, you know, proudly about yourself, you still kind of, and I'm like, I still do that. I'd minimize myself so much and the amount of people I talk to that are like, Oh, I love what you're doing. Like, and I need to work on that clearly. But a lot of the times I'll just be like, Oh, I'm not that cool. Like, I don't know why you like me. And I have so many friends that are like, why are you doing that? You are cool. You do deserve this recognition. And I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I'm not like that with those people. Like I'm just back here in the background. Like, yeah, yeah, no, totally. And you need those people that like. Can call that out in you and I think that's like having those good friends So when you are having those moments of self doubt like talking through it with them and then being able to be like no That's I am good. And yeah, really truly if anything, I think that is you know, really any of my my Women friends or my even my guy friends that have you know When they face those situations when they are second guessing themselves, just so hard on themselves like I don't ever really see it the other way because it's like you you know And they wouldn't talk to you like that Exactly, and you have like those those two types where you have like a person that is more of an internalizer or or you have A person that's more of an externalizer right and the externalizer. They're going to be The type that's always somebody else's fault. They're blaming people all the time. you know, as an internalizer, it's like, just like how you said, like, where it's like, I think about this all the time and I, I second guess myself. I doubt myself where I like, you know, it's like I run through, did I say this right? Did I do this right? That's an internalizer right there. That's that part of you that's like, you know, and if anything, I think as an internalizer is like you, you are never, it's going to take a lot for you to ever go too far. Like maybe when you, yeah, maybe when you're first testing out those boundaries and you'll have those moments where it's like, okay. I snapped here or I said this and you can go back but like giving yourself grace and like not feel like you even have to get it all perfect when you are having confrontation and when you're giving yourself permission to have that because it's a learning experience and being able to take that space, really think through your feelings and being able to, come back whether, and sometimes it's, it's putting it in writing. Like when I first started having better boundaries, I was doing it in writing and that helped me. Like now I can like speak it out and, I'm comfortable with that now, but yeah, do what, what works for you. What helps you to feel in control and what helps you to not. Minimize what you're feeling, because I think sometimes, too, if that other person isn't responding well, then we can like, start to like, okay, I'm going to appease you now. I'm going to like, I'm going to try and make it better. Yeah, to respect yourself and not, not go there. Maybe put it in writing at the start if you need to. I love that. And that's, whatever it takes to help us slowly build on that, because a lot of us are former people pleasers and overthinkers, and we need those extra layers, and they are completely okay and acceptable, whatever it is that is going to advocate for you and your mental health, so that you can keep doing what you love, because otherwise you're going to burn out so fast, and yeah. The burnout can only stack up so many times before you start thinking, am I right for this? When of course you are, because that's why you got into this. That's why you, it fueled you to take these steps. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And recognizing those signs of like, fear, anxiety, and stress in yourself. Like, I think we can be so good about recognizing it in animals and then Yeah. When it comes to our own self, it's like we can ignore it until it builds to that point where, you know, in fear, like, yeah, we were lovely. You're at the red level or it's, yeah, you're just exploding or you're just like totally imploding in on yourself, which that's always my, that's actually another thing I've been learning. So just in this last week, it's so cool, like how, with like self development, how you always are learning and growing and it's like a, it's a journey. It is. It's totally a journey. And I, I feel like sometimes, like when you're talking about being hard on yourself, it's like, I think when it comes to change or anything stressful or anything that, bad happens, like you have a certain pattern of like, how, how do you react to this? And I never really related to that part of like, um, that outward anger. Cause I was like, I don't really feel like I don't really feel that. But then I. Start to think about it. And I'm like, I don't know. It's just like how it manifests differently. Yeah for me It always comes out is like I implode like I get really down on myself I get really Judgy of myself and it's like and even these things I truly didn't have control over like I find some weird way to be like Bully yourself. Yeah totally and Yeah. And then it's like, so then, and that comes in right after that part of, I try and fix it. I try and fix this, try and make it better. And then when that doesn't happen, then I get really down on myself. I go into that imploding mode and then I get, and I'm anxious and then I get kind of depressed about it. And then your whole body just feels dysregulated. Totally. Yeah. To even just recognize those patterns that like, okay, this is what I do when I'm under stress and like, you know, I've been dealing with, uh, there's been a bunch of stuff with my, my daughter, unfortunately, she's been having these seizures kind of out of nowhere since March. And so it's been, it's been very stressful and, uh, but, giving my, my self grace in that situation, because honestly, like it, I mean, this whole, we did the seminar. On change with our, our fear free group, which it was like the perfect thing to have happen like during this time. So I'm like, God, like I didn't even realize how hard I'm being on myself to about this situation. I could have been a better mom. I could have done this. And I'm like. This has nothing to do with this, and I know it is, but it's so weird to, like, recognize your thoughts. And how our brains go to that point. Yes. The brain is a crazy place. I think we all know that. It is. The amount we work with behavior, but it's so true, and you're so on point with it of just, we can acknowledge all this with animals, and we study this, and we learn so much about it, and it can apply to us. But a lot of the times we don't want to see that or we're just gonna like put our head down and just get the work done. And then we wonder why we get burnt out. It's just like, well, yeah, we're not taking care of ourselves. And one thing that I have really worked hard on is I was the last person I would keep a promise to. I always broke promises to myself. I never held myself at the higher level that I deserved, never prioritized myself. And once I started doing that, I started enjoying what I was doing more because I was taking care of myself. And it's sounds so silly. Right now, but in hindsight, it really is a matter of just like remembering to feed myself, remembering to drink water, move my body, like just little acts of love throughout the day. And I know that just sounds like, okay, Mandy, but really like that, that is. Like, this is how we are going to keep loving what we are doing if we are taking care of ourselves. We are nothing to our clients if we are falling apart and burnt out. We have to show up as our best selves and we can't do that if we are not taking care of ourselves. No. And it's, yeah, and you think about that, it's like, yeah, anytime when you are, are feeling the most fulfilled and the most like, like kind of centered within who you are, you, you are in such a better place and a more quick place. Uns, untoppable help other people. Exactly. I just, I think it's so good to like, come at these things with like that thought of like curiosity, so like that curious mindset rather than that like judgmental mindset because, even like when you recognize those patterns in yourself, it's like, Oh, that's, that's interesting. Like I did this or that's interesting that like my, my first thought was this, or like, you know, like you're talking about like having, this feeling like panic attacks. Like I've, I've experienced those in the past too. And I haven't had them in a really long time. I haven't either. Yeah. And it was really weird. I, I happened to have one for the first time in like years the other day. And it was like out of nowhere. I was listening to this like, I was working and I had my jam songs on and this like, Bohemian song came on with these drums and it was like And it, but I, I didn't go into full panic attack mode, but I could start to feel like my heart, it really did. And I started to feel this like anxiety and like, started to think about the situation. I know we talked about this a little at the start, but like, I, one of the bad relationships I had with this guy, I, his code name is Kylo Ren, um, from like Star Wars. But I started to think about him and I'm like, did that come from? And, it was interesting. Yeah, I realized Trigger, Trigger was that song, which goes back to this time I had with him in the Bahamas. It was honestly super traumatizing. And it's like, and all of a sudden I'm having those emotions come up. But like, yeah, to feel like I'm having that curious mindset and that kind mindset to myself versus that judgmental, like. What's wrong with me? Why can't I just, and I'm taken away from my work, but like, yeah, having that care and that compassion. And then it's like, from there, I can, work through that. I am a huge fan. Have you heard of EMDR? Yes. Yeah. Oh my God. I love EMDR. I wish I w I would love to be able to think of ways we could do something similar like this with dogs. Oh, I'm sure it's on the way. Like there has to be. It's so cool. Like, it's just so amazing to like, Be able to replay those situations and be able to do it. It's like, you know, because it's like that thing where people say you have that bad situation. They're like, okay, well, just sleep on it. But, you know, sometimes some trauma is too big for us to just sleep on it and we don't recover from it. And so to be able to process that again and have a different association, different thought pattern. Oh, my God, it makes such a big difference. So, yeah, I worked through that situation. And, uh, you know, and with EMDR because of that, but yeah, to be able to recognize that and be like, okay, I'm not okay right now. It's okay. I'll be okay. Why am I not okay? What's going on? And yeah, being kind to yourself. It is okay to not be okay. Yes. Like that is, we say that so much to our clients and their dogs, but like, again, never comes back to us. We think that we need to always be okay, and if we're not okay, there's something wrong with us. No, this is a hard job. This is a hard profession in an unregulated industry. Like, it's gonna feel like a lot and just, yeah, I, I think the biggest thing I want people to take away from this conversation is just, it's okay if you're struggling and it is okay if you are not where you think you need to be with other people. It's, , just. Do it in a way that you are still enjoying this and that might be that you only take you know X amount of clients a month you might only you know Do x amount of classes, but if it's preserving your mental health and helping you still love what you do I don't see anything wrong with that. No, definitely well worth it. Yeah, being kind to yourself, like, maybe you have to think, like, for me, in those times when I have been down on myself, and I've gone into that imploding mode, it's like, even then, like, I started to think of myself as my best friend would think of me, or I'd think of it for my daughter. Yeah, because it's like, it's so much easier sometimes to be kinder to other people, so if that's where you're at in that moment, that's okay. Be kind to yourself, you know, as you would be to that other person. What would, what would you want for them in that situation? How would you talk to your client? Yeah. Yeah. Like Yes, exactly. Oh, I think that's really helpful too. And, you know, it's, uh, you know, and remembering, remembering who you are. Like I, for me, like probably this, this is like kind of a big turning point in my life. Like just, uh, it's been a few years now, but I had, you know, been in, Different relationships where, you know, it was like abusive in different ways, especially like the emotional abuse is pretty rough at times and I just got so beaten down. I felt so, so crummy about myself, so shitty. And I was just made to feel like, you know, and you're gaslighted all the times, too. Like, you feel like you're crazy and you feel like I'm messed up, like. You second guess your own brain. All the time. And it's like, and then you, you're trying to fix it. And so then, and then you start to see those little things like where you're like, okay, it is changing. It is getting better. And then of course it never does because it's a cycle of abuse that it just gets, you know, it'll get better, but then it's, you know, it's going to get worse again. To a point. Yep. And it's going to explode and then you're going to go back to that repair process. And, but I just happened to like, I was just looking through pictures and I just happened to come across this picture of myself as like a little baby. And it was like just right after I was born. And I was like, oh, like. But I just felt like this, like, feeling of, like, compassion. I'm like, oh my God, like, I have been telling myself I need to stay with this person, and I need to put up with this, and I need to fix this, and I need to make work. And I'm like, I would never have thought that for this little girl, this little, and that's me. Like, oh my God, we could go into a whole thing about, like, tapping into our inner child. But really, like. I love the idea that a lot of people have of you, you know, post a photo of your childhood self on a mirror and you, you, that's who you're talking to, that is who you are belittling and tearing down. When you think of it that way, it's like, oh, why would I do that to her? Like, I hadn't heard that before, but that's so interesting because I kept that picture in a drawer and I would look at her all the time and I'm like, that's me. I have to myself the way I would be to her, so. That's so cool. Yeah. I can't remember if it was like Jay Shetty or maybe Mel Robbins. I love both of them, but, um, they, they'll say like, you know, put your childhood photo on a mirror and like, see them and like, that is who you are tearing down. Don't do that. And it's like, well, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. And what would you want for her in this situation? And I think that helps you to feel like that freedom to stand up for yourself because we have to stand up for ourselves. Like. You know, as much as we want to live in that ideal world where everything is, you know, in harmony, everyone gets along. Yeah. That's just not reality, unfortunately. And, you know, and it's okay to say that for yourself. And sometimes that will mean losing clients. Like, you know, with fear free, I think that's a hard thing for people when they go into the, like when vets are adopting this and there'll be clients that are like, well, I, you know, we've, we, my pets. It's fine. Like, you just push through. They don't need medication, or we don't need this training, and it's like, well, actually, you know, we're not going to treat your pet at the expense of their emotional well being. Like, we need to protect both their emotional and their physical well being, sometimes, you know, that's where you need to break up with your clients, and it's okay to break up with your clients. Like, you know? And I broke up with my old vet, and I found a fear free vet, and it was the best. Best like point of like ever working with a vet ever again. I'm like, oh my god It's worth the 40 minute drive if I know my dog and my cat are gonna be in a better mental state and not be pushed Yes, god, doesn't that feel good? Like I actually like taking my pets into the vet now. I'm like, oh, they love it They walk in super happy now Never before no Yeah, and it's just it's such a different feeling it, you know, and it's like To know that you're doing well for your pet physically and emotionally at the same time, like, it just feels so good and, like, they just have so much fun. And knowing you can trust the staff and, like, you're on the same page and you don't need to worry and, like, over advocate and, like, because I feel like with other vets. That, like, I would show up and I'd have to, like, put on my training vest and, like, Okay, this is how I have to handle this because you're not going to listen to me. A hundred percent, me too. Now that I have a fear free vet, I'm like, oh my god, this is like it. My only wish is just that anyone that needs a vet, they can work with a fear free vet. Yes, yes. To be able to have that difference, it really is. And stress reducing on you, too. Oh, my God. Yeah, that is like, yeah, before it was just like that stress of like, okay, I'm going to delay this because I don't want to have to put it off for a year. Yeah, yeah, where it's like, now I'm like, Oh, you know, I'm going to go back for, you know, they encourage happy, happy visit, go do some victory visits just for fun, you know, like, I love that. And it's like enrichment for them, honestly, right? And it was that actually would be enrichment now versus like, yeah, fear. Right. Yeah. Well, this has just been such an awesome conversation. I'm so excited that I finally got to talk to you and meet with you, but also just talk with you about mental health, because I know that is very passionate topic for you. And I really, I think people are going to love hearing this side of it and just the way we've approached it, this conversation. It's just, I love it. Well, I love it too. And I love, I just love getting to talk with you. I love all the work that you do and thank you for being so real and for inviting these like honest conversations because I do think they will make such a big difference for other people to not feel alone and to not feel that isolation and to know that it's It's okay to not be okay and that everybody, you know, everybody's going through something and whether it's, you know, and same thing with dogs. Like none of us have to be perfect and taking away that type of pressure is just so freeing for everybody. Awesome. Well, I think I'm going to have to have you on for another episode, obviously, because we could just, we could talk all day. I know. So I felt like, oh, we're done already? Dang, it went by so fast. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,