The Balancing Act of Business w/Hannah Branigan

In Episode 8 of Season 2 your host Mandy Boutelle has a fun and inspiring conversation with Hannah Branigan is an enlightening journey through the challenges and triumphs of being neurodivergent in the dog training business world. Hannah, known for her podcast "Drinking From the Toilet," shares her unique perspective on navigating business ownership while managing neurodiversity. We delve into topics like burnout prevention, overcoming imposter syndrome, and the importance of finding effective ways to relate to clients.

Hannah's experience as a clicker trainer and behavior nerd, with an intriguing career spanning various roles in the dog training world, brings a wealth of knowledge to our discussion. We explore the intricacies of mental health in the business realm, discussing how easy it is to fall into the trap of believing we need to wear all the hats and do all the things in our businesses.

This candid chat is interspersed with Hannah's trademark sarcastic humor, making it not only informative but also highly enjoyable.

Tune in to this episode to gain insights into finding balance and growth in both personal and professional spheres, especially when juggling the complexities of neurodiversity. Hannah's story is a testament to the power of embracing our unique paths and learning to delegate and prioritize for better mental well-being and business success.
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Books mentioned in this episode:
Profit First by Mike Michalowicz
ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life
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Want to support Hannah?
hannahbranigan.dog
Listen to her podcast- Drinking From The Toilet
Follow her on IG- @hannah_branigan

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Transcript

0:03

Um, Welcome back to the Leashed Mind podcast, mental health and dog training. I am your host, Mandy Bowtell. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Hannah Branigan. So this episode, it is filled with so many valuable nuggets. We talk about being neurodivergent and being a business owner. We talk about burnout, prevention, bouncing back from it, imposter syndrome, how it's kind of Always in the room when we are trying to grow as professionals and grow our businesses, talk about, you know, finding ways to find other ways to relate to clients, get on our clients level, talking about, you know, just mental health and the ways in which It can get ignored in our business or ways in which that we find ways to delegate within our business so that we can not only preserve our mental bandwidth, but also, not taking on everything because we don't need to take everything on as business owners and yet we have this internal belief that for some reason we need to wear all the hats and do all these things when we've never been taught. To wear all the hats or do all the things, but here we are trying to do that and then, you know, some of us wonder why we get burnt out or why the imposter syndrome is constantly there. So Hannah and I talk all those lovely things and, you know, just approach all of it with her awesome, sarcastic sense of humor. So let's tune into this episode. I know you guys are going to love it. Oh, Hannah Branigan. Thank you so much for joining me on the Leashed Mind podcast. It is an honor to have you on and I'm so excited to pick your brain on all things mental health. So thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. So, I'm sure at this point, a lot of people know who you are, but for those that may not listen to your podcast, Drinking From the Toilet, may not follow you actively, can you just give a quick intro of what you do, what you have going on currently, and where you are in your career right now? Yeah, so, I mean, I'm a behavior nerd, first and foremost. I'm fascinated by learning and behavior of I mean, not everybody of all organisms, professionally, I consider myself a dog trainer and a clicker trainer. I have had many, um, phases to my career as a, as a professional from working, in veterinary clinics, as a tech slash dog trainer to full time training and running classes and day school and board and trained in. home and then, you know, spanning out on my own and teaching group classes and in home lessons and private lessons and then into competitive dog sports, which was weird. Transition. I still fully understand. and at this point, I primarily work with Like, I think of it as like kind of the upstream population in the dog behavior world. Um, yeah, so I, I work with, about 50 percent professional, other professional trainers and about 50 percent like non professional training obsessed, The, like, true behavior nerd, like, dog parent kind of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, who, who often have, roles, you know, as volunteers, either at training clubs or assisting or they, you know, mentor other people or they, um, some of them teach, do teach some classes, uh, you know, in training clubs but aren't really, like, they have other, they have real jobs. Um, and, and, um, or, you know, or active in rescue, like there's, there's, I am very rarely working with, like fresh dog owners, which was my original population. So I've kind of, Oh, so I now work with the people who work with those people. Ooh, I want to get into that a little bit. Well, I'm just curious how you kind of decided to kind of segue and go off and be like, you know what, I want to like hone in on that. Because I think a lot of the times professionals, they have a really hard time learning to niche down and figure out like where they want to go direction wise with their business. Yeah, I think that and my niche has shifted. kind of as I have. Like, I mean, I don't know if it's, you know, partly a function of Adult ADHD, partly a function of, just like normal, like, personal evolution. Yeah, growth. Career growth, personal growth. I, I can't imagine doing exactly the same thing for 40 years. I just, I don't, I don't know how, how people do that. I know that's really appealing to some people, but it's not all appealing to me. So I'm always looking, like, I mean, I mean, ultimately I love learning. I love learning new things and new challenges. And so that's, That's, that's part of it, there, yeah, but I do think that focusing on a niche has been really important and something I have to keep reminding myself of because I easily get excited and want to do everything for all the people. There's also a lot of people pleasing in there as well, but, um, yeah, but then, you know, can't help everybody. And when I try to help everybody, I end up helping nobody, and You know, that kind of thing, so. I love that you touched on that, because I feel like a lot of the times, especially when we're green trainers, we want to help everyone. We just want to like, okay, I'll take puppies, reactivity, whatever you got, throw it at me and I'll take it on. But then we start noticing like, oh, I actually really hate working with puppies, or I really hate working with like, High energy dogs. And it's just for a lot of us. And I noticed I have these conversations with a lot of trainer friends that will feel like we don't deserve to narrow our scope down almost, or like that pressure of like, take them all. And then. I think, you know, initially I was so shocked that anyone would want my help. Like that, like I was so like, as a baby, well, no, honestly, I still have those feelings, but now I just, I know them better. But as a baby trainer, I was like, I don't belong here. Oh yeah. I can explain, I don't belong here. But, like if anyone was like, oh I want to hire you, I'd be like, oh my god, thank you. Right. so much for wanting to hire me. Um, and so I was afraid to say no. And there's a, I mean there's. I know you said this is a mental health podcast. We can definitely talk. There's a lot of, a lot of trauma behind it. Oh yeah, totally. Yes. Um, but you know, definitely some of it was an inability to tell anyone no to anything for any, any reason. Oh my God. Yes. Yeah. They were contacting, they're like, Oh yes, but I, I work until, you know, 8 PM at night. So you're going to have to come and, you know, do in home lessons and. That's fine. Sure. And I'd be like, sure, that's okay. I normally start work at 7am, so the lesson at 9pm is fine. I can do that. I'll make that happen. You're hungry for the clients, and you know, having a livable wage and being able to provide for yourself and family. That's the big kicker, I think. That's like why we take everything on and then we're like, I can live, but like, don't have a life. Right. No, that was definitely a a problem. You know, my first mistake was not being born into money. And that was, um, Yep. Same here. Hard worker. Yeah, I can't believe I did that. Yeah, so. Your sense of humor kills me. I love it so much. So yeah, so, so growing up without a lot of money and The scarcity. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of pressure internally, you know, at this point, or even at that point. Oh yeah. To not end up destitute. Yeah. but. I think with the people pleasing and the needing to take all the clients on, I think that, you know, we're around the same age demographic and we grew up with that MySpace, Facebook, like me, pay attention to me. What do you mean you don't like me? You're not, I'm not in your top eight. What did I do wrong? Internalize it. And then it's just that totally goes forward into our business of like, okay, why aren't I getting clients? Why aren't they liking my posts? Why aren't I getting followers? And then we just, for me specifically, I get into the hamster wheel of not good enough, imposter syndrome. I suck. Why am I here? Don't deserve to be here. And I think a lot of us have those inner thoughts and then it stops us from really diving into our career. I mean, hello, I tapped out being a trainer after four years because I just was like, I, I'm not built for this when no one else around me was talking about mental health and You know, just where I'm going with this is because a lot of times, like, you have a sucky session and you're just like, oh, I suck. I'm a bad trainer. Like, I let that client down and it's like, well, okay, but maybe it was the client. Maybe it's the way it was communicated. And I think with a lot of that, we get into that internal spiral. And so I'm curious where it's been for you and your journey where you've noticed that and. How have you kind of worked to like, maybe swat those thoughts away? Because I know they'll always come up. Like the imposter syndrome. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so for me, the biggest challenge is I am like equally afraid of getting clients as I am of not getting clients. Because And, you know, my preference, my natural inclination would be to not be perceived at all. Like, don't notice me. I would just be like an invisible essence, floating around the universe. But in the name of capitalism, it doesn't really work out. So, I've had to work on that. And then lots of, lots. of if someone contacts me, I won't really, I don't really know how to help them. Like, I don't know how to solve this, because I don't have any idea what I'm doing. I'm making this up, and someone's going to figure out that I'm just making this up. Do you still feel that way now, or was that, like, mostly in the beginning? The thoughts, oh. I would actually, was probably more confident at the very beginning, because I didn't know what I didn't know yet. Right. So I, you know, I started very much from the, it's all how they're raised, I just have to, you know, love them hard enough, and like, they're all savable, and I can fix all the things, and the universe, the universe is real good at helping you out of that. Yes. Hard reality check, really quick. So there, there is some of that. and, yeah. So it actually. like in the, in the weird like fever dream that has been my, my training journey, I was asked to speak at Clicker Expo, which I still present, um, most years at Clicker Expo and at one of the, I think it was probably the first Clicker Expo that I was presenting at. And I. When was the first one? Oh God. Time is a construct. I know. Um, yeah, it was, it was, it was in the before time, right? Like it was, it was pre pandemic. Which automatically makes it very difficult to nail down. Oh, always, yeah. Anything before 2020, I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Goes as, gets as good as mine. Right, so sometime between the end of college and the beginning of the pandemic, it nails it down. but, but yeah, so I was, I was at that, uh, Clickers when I was still, like, even worse, because now there's Kathy Sadao and Ken Ramirez, and, like, all of these people that, Like, why am I here? Do I deserve to be here? Yeah, the real trainers. And then there's me. And so I'm like, you know, kind of hiding in the corner. And, they sat me next to Karen frickin Pryor. at the dinner. And I don't think I ate. My mouth was so dry the whole time. But, in, in one of my, one of my responses to feeling very anxious is I just like blurred out random things. like oversharing. Oh, hi, are we the same person? Yeah. So, I felt compelled to tell Karen Pryor that I had no idea what I was doing. Hey, I bet she loved that vulnerability. At least I hope. Well, she actually shook her head at me and she said, none of us do and we're all making it up. And I was like, oh my god. And I didn't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing because I still, like, I'm still in that place where I'm waiting for the real grown ups to show up and save me. Like, I'm trying to hold on to things just long enough until they can get here. And people are like, you know, there are no grown ups. You're supposed to be the grown up. And I think that's really terrifying. I don't consider that at 30. I'm like, I'm still a child here. Thank you for thinking I can own a home and run a business, but I keep waiting for them to find out that I've accidentally stolen this house, right? And I mean, I just figured out last week what it really means to vacuum your refrigerator coils. Don't tell me that. I don't need to know that. So I'm down there scraping the, the, the balls of hay. Like, there's a family of elk under there. And I'm scraping it out with a fork. And, you know, I will cry. Because I, and then the whole rest of the night I was waiting for them to show up and revoke my home ownership privileges because I clearly am not enough of a grown up. But anyways, back to the, back to the topic. so it was actually, so that was a, a Interesting and helpful. Like I, you know, confessed to someone that I truly idolized. Right. and she To just get reassured. Yeah, yeah. Like, you have the right thought process, you're not alone in that. That's huge. We're all, we're all doing that, yeah. And, and I know Ken has told me he struggles with imposter syndrome, complex, whatever, which You're the only white man that I've ever heard, like, read. Admit that. Yeah. but, and then, so, and then there was something that Kathy Sado said, not to me personally, she said it like at a, I don't know, seminar presentation or something, I can't remember where I heard it from. pretty sure it was her, but I'm gonna give her credit, because she deserves all the credit And, and this is the one that I hold on to, like, every day, as almost like a mantra. And her, I'm going to paraphrase badly, but what she was speaking to was the kind of like core belief that we have to like know everything and be like flawlessly good like experts in order to have value as a professional teaching others. So like, yeah, and. She said something to the effect of, like, you don't have to be at level 10 to help people who are at level 1 and level 2. And since I consider Kathy to be, like, a level 10. Um. I was like, wow, because I, I did really feel like I need to go, I need to get a PhD in dog training and then I need to do like, oh, in order to have. Check certain boxes. Yeah. To feel adequate. I need the right merit badges in order to feel qualified. Right. And I've since read similar things in different places, not related to dog training, but just, you know, with regards to education and teaching and stuff. And I've really absorbed that because one of the things that I've noticed is not only do I not need to be a level 10 to help people who are 1s and 2s, brand new dog training, people who are at level 10 are actually not as good a fit, because we learn best from people who are just a little bit ahead of us because they still remember what it's like. to be a two and that's part of how like part of what's behind how I've shifted up with my kind of population that I focus on because I'm actually not a great fit for brand new dog trainers anymore to a certain extent I mean I can say with maybe like a five on that scale right so I'm I'm actually best suited to help The threes and fours, um, we're going to be a better fit together, and they're going to be a better fit to help people who are ones and twos. I love that. How did, how did you kind of figure that out for yourself of like, oh, wait, this is where I'm at. This is who I'm going to help most and removing that thought of you're needing to hit all these marks to feel like you need to be at that certain point. Did that make sense? I mean, maybe, um, I, I don't know that I have like a single answer. I don't, I mean, it's just like, it's a collection of little things that I've just kind of noticed as far as like what I find reinforcing and where I'm noticing that I'm doing a better job. Um, so like, as part of that whole niching down thing, you, you, you really can't effectively Like from an instructional, like, pedagogical standpoint. Teach both behavior 101 and introduction to competition. Right. At the same time. Yeah. So you kind of have to, have to pick, right? Am I, am I focused on more like elementary school stuff or, or, you know, college or graduate school? and I don't mean that as a, like, in a derogatory way at all. And the more I put into my own education for teaching people and giving feedback and, learning about learning and how to improve myself as an instructor, I noticed that I didn't have enough room, in a way, like resource wise, to to do both of those things. And then what was more effective in terms of like me, you can living a purposeful life. I get, but you know, making the world a better place is I can work with the people who work with the people. And now I am actually able to help more dogs and their humans. Then one on one, right on the ground. So like we can kind of, this is a little bit of pyramid scheme, but it will, it's a ripple effect. You're just, you're helping in a different aspect. And then it's trickling to other people. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. I'm curious cause you did mention adult ADHD. So do you have adult ADHD as well? All right. Well, I am, I have ADHD and then whether or not I'm an adult is up for debate. But yes, I'm diagnosed neurodivergent, for human. Same here. So, with that, when did you get diagnosed? I was just diagnosed. Last March, I believe. And so I'm curious when you were diagnosed and where you kind of noticed, like, oh, oh, my brain works differently. Let's, like, lean into that more and help ourselves. I hope you've been doing that. So, well, so, I was actually, this was a little different than most of us. Um, I was actually diagnosed at 12. Oh, lucky. Which, well, in a sense, well, right. So I was diagnosed at 12 and that was in the 90s when girls didn't have ADHD. so that was, that gives you an idea of how bad it was, um, that I was even evaluated. Now I did, I did, I was lucky in a lot of ways. My mom, worked in special education. I think that really helped my brother. Of course was diagnosed. first because he had disciplinary issues and was a white boy, which also helped. And then I got like, kind of like, Oh, well, so you were also diagnosed. I did not receive any treatment or support or accommodations. Um, so it was just kind of like a. Here you go. Like, it was just like, okay. Okay, thanks, what do I do with that? Now, now, apply yourself, now that you have that. So, because you have a lot of potential, and if you just apply yourself. But we're not going to help you figure that one out. Yes, and of course, like, I did the thing like that, again, I think most of us did do where, because I was bright, because I was a terrible people pleaser, I just killed myself, and I was mostly pretty good at school. Like, I mostly I would have, like, random sitting stills, even for me was not, was not great, um, but I could, you know, I was doing well on the tests and so I was, and I was not a, uh, was not a disciplinary challenge for the teachers, so the only problem was that I, you know, was forgetful and, like, would always lose my calculator or my notebooks and, you know, was late a lot and, Time blindness, yeah, time blind, nobody really noticed how much I was. you know, crying at lunch, um, and after school and and being a teenage girl, they're like, Oh, she's just hormonal. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I got through college, got into graduate school. Graduate school was where the compensations fell apart, which again, I think is a Everybody hits some kind of wall there, and for me, it was grad school. Yep. And so they diagnosed me with depression and anxiety and gave me an SSRI, which did nothing to help at all. And of course, once you have anxiety on your medical chart, you can't get treatment for anything after that. So, I would love to have that removed. But it was then after my daughter was born, when I hit a second wall, and I went to my, first to my OB and then the general practitioner, and, like, I thought I had borderline personality disorder. because of like, something's wrong. Hormones? Yeah. It wrecks you. Um, there was, it was, I was afraid. I was very afraid. and she, I don't remember how I got, but it got, I got referred to a psychiatrist because they, it was not a great, the whole thing was not a great experience until I got, and then I got really lucky with a psychiatrist and I was talking to the psychiatrist and I had marked that I had the diagnosis of ADHD and he's like, well, let's talk about that. And, and I was talking, so then he. Did, like he did, we didn't do the whole screening thing again. I don't even really, I vaguely remember it from when I was a kid. Mm-Hmm.. And he's like, and you've not been treated at all this whole time. And, and I was like, well, no. I just, you know, I'm not trying hard enough. And, um, God, I dunno if I said this exact, but that was kinda like, they just have to figure out how to try harder. Like tomorrow I just have to wake up and be a different person. And so then he said, well, you know. A lot of times when we get the ADHD treated, the anxiety goes away. I mean, it doesn't do anything about the decades of trauma that were, you know, accumulated. That's all surface, yeah. But he was totally right, like, it took, it took a while, to even get on top of it. And I think I'd actually, prior to that, I had been doing some Like stuff on my own in terms of figuring out systems, like I've always, I mean this is part of what got me through in the first place like that I'm, that I am here to be here to have the conversation was like an obsession with systems. Right. If I can find, if I can find the right system, the problem is I don't have the right system for remembering my homework. The problem is I don't have the right system for managing whatever this thing is. Let me hack my brain and figure out, yeah. If I can figure it out, and then, you know, and then all the, which, I had been at one point on my screen for OCD, which, again, was because I was so anxious about. All of the things that were falling through the cracks and, and just peddling so hard, To slam in your head against the wall trying to like figure out like, what is it? Right, right. So, you know, researching like ADHD friendly ways to organize your home, which was a great book that I found really helpful, you know, previously. But yeah, medication helps some, not as much as I had hoped. I see people on the internet at the time that are like, Oh, you know, it's like, this is what it's like to be normal. And I was like, well, I'm not really having this, like, magical experience. It, you know, a little bit helps for a few hours of the day. so I can get the dishwasher unloaded and stuff. But, but it is, the rest of it coming together helps. And, like, just knowing where to, like, Point the research, you know? Well, yeah, and, and being guided to a path of like, okay, this is where you can start figuring it out. And I'm glad that you touched on, you know, having improper diagnosis, because I think a lot of us, especially as, female, born female, a lot of us get hit with, oh, you're just anxious, oh, you're just depressed, oh, it's just your hormones, and it's like, oh, wait! I am actually neurodivergent and the reason I'm anxious and depressed is because my brain is working against me and no one has taught me how to work in favor of it or set it up in the best way possible. and yeah, I, medication only helps like a smidge amount maybe so I can do my emails and like remember to drink water. But like, my husband has ADHD as well and I'm like, it's not working. I can't focus. And he's like, you know, it's just like, it's, it's the tip of the iceberg. You still have to sit down and do it. I'm like, well, what's the point then? Like, I still have to apply myself. If only, if only you applied yourself. Potential . but I'm glad we're talking about this because I think a lot of us in the dog training community are neurodivergent and I think it's kind of a block in the very beginning of trying to start a business because it's so daunting trying to look at the umbrella of how to navigate a business when you know certain things are very overwhelming to those of us. I hate bookkeeping. I'm terrible at math. Like, horrible. No, I can't do it. And Overwhelming, yes. Yeah, people are like, how do you do it? I'm like, I, I use people, I delegate, I ask for help where I can, and I think, that goes hand in hand with having systems, and, and finding ways to have other people help and do it, and I know I, I am very privileged to have that option, I've also worked my butt off to be able to get to that option, because I think a lot of us will scramble for the longest time trying to figure it out, so, I'm curious, what systems did you figure out that, like, worked the best for your brain to give you a good jumping off point to really figure that out? Business and person Yeah, let's start with business. so I, I did start delegating and that helped so much. I, it was a big expense for me. It's still a big expense for me. but it was Unbelievable how much that helped and I, I, it took, it took a while. So like right now I have a bookkeeper that I love. The bookkeeper was the first thing that I hired. because I'm so afraid of going to jail for tax fraud. Right. It's not because I'm clever enough to actually defraud the government. I don't. I don't understand, like, I can't keep receipts, like, I don't, and it's just, QuickBooks has just made me cry. Like, I download, which is what you're supposed to do, right? You download QuickBooks. And I, and I was like, we now have the QuickBooks and it's supposed to do something for me and I don't really see that it's helping me in any way because I still have to put in all of this stuff. I'm still getting frustrated and burnt out. I'm still getting frustrated, like I'm, like, I found, you know, a check that had been floating around in my car for four months that I'd never deposited from a client and, you know, like that, that kind of thing, which just adds to the, all the shaming, you know, self loathing. Oh, yeah. so yes, I, I did, first bookkeeper was a nightmare, but it broke the seal of, like, trying, you know? Oh yeah, you got your toe in. Yeah. Yeah. And she just wasn't, she just wasn't a good fit, ultimately. And it took me, I mean, it was only probably two years ago, to figure out that it wasn't just because I'm terrible, it was, like, just really, we weren't a good fit together. Right. Right. The way she preferred to work and what I am. what works well for me were not the right things. And I only worked with her for a year or two, I think. and then I switched to like someone else that was a little bit better and now I have a bookkeeper that is, is amazing. Um, And, I mean, I don't know that he does anything particularly. He does his job. Yeah. I know he does his job, but like, he, he is totally on board with some of my weird systems that I have for, um, for keeping up with things. So I've read, I read, um, Prophet First, which I don't know if you're familiar with that one. Um, this was several years, many years ago at this point, and that actually helped me the most in terms of, Figuring out a book, because like I had this one really bad year with, um, where I learned the term tax liability. Which is a word I wish I had never had to find out about. It was probably like the first or second year that I had my own business, and I had not figured out about Saving my own tax money, and I had to figure it out. I hate that reality, had that happened. That was really rough. Um, and so then I did Profit First. I forget who recommended it to me. And that really helped. Like, it was a very ADHD friendly, I don't know if he has ADHD, I think there's a high likelihood that he might just from, from the book, plus it's an audio book, so that helps me out a lot. Oh yeah. and so I implemented a very, like, modified version of what he talks about there, because not everything that what he's talking about is applicable for a sole proprietor. Right. kind of thing. And so I, I implemented that and it's like with different, Accounts and you allocate things as you go and so I was able to, that made a huge difference and so now I have a bookkeeper who understands what I'm trying to do there and is cool with it and is just so very chill when I do something stupid like accidentally use my business credit card at Sephora. and like that used to be something I would feel so mortified that I would have, like I spent money on something frivolous in the first place. Right. My business card, and I, it's my business credit card, like it's all the same money. I don't know why I get so hung up about it, but I absolutely got very hung up about having to confess to this frivolous purchase with company money. My boss must be so terrible. And he's like, Oh, I know, there's a code for that in QuickBooks. And I was like, what? Right. Exactly. And now he's like, what's this Home Depot? I was like, oh, that was a personal, he's like, okay. And he like does all the things. So, we found a way to work together that is not overwhelming for me. He can distill things down to yes or no questions or multiple choice. Ugh. And he can give me context when I ask, or rather, like when he needs to know something, he can give me the context so that I can understand, because I always need to understand why in order to do a thing. Right. Like, that's part of how, what I have to have. But I also, when it comes to bookkeeping and taxes, I also don't want to know. So that's, it's complicated, very complicated there. But anyway, so he's got, he's got that balanced down pretty well. so that, and that has helped keep me out of prison, to date. that's, but that's the, like, most challenging part of running a business. And I think, you know, personally, I think it's the scariest part because it's money and legal things. It's the part you can actually go to jail for. Right. The rest of it, I just have to live in a cardboard box behind McDonald's, but, um, but, but that one, you could go to prison. Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of the times, like, We choose to set up a business and unless we, you know, have the means to hire a business consultant, which a lot of us don't, then we're kind of just going in blind. Like, I think this is legal. Is this a business? I feel the format on legal zoom. Yeah. I am a business. What do I do? I have no idea how to navigate it. And then we get drowned with the overwhelm in it. Um, and like you said, negative self talk and thinking that, you know, we're not doing it right. and Yes. Oh, God. Being able to delegate is so huge and just pass it off when it's something that we're not good at. And I think a lot of the times we think we have to be good at like the whole picture when it's like, no, you don't, you really don't. Um, it's just finding ways to like offset that. So you have the bookkeeper. Are there any other systems you have in place with your business that have just made it easier to navigate for you? Yes, so I do have a VA who does, with like an hour, some number of hours per month, more now than when I started. I started off with like very minimal contract, just like a, you know, a couple of hours a week, and I wasn't even using them, but she took over my scheduling stuff. That's huge. Like probably the That's probably harder for me than bookkeeping, to be honest. Is it letting go of the control of it that was hard? Or just implementing? No, um, like decision fatigue and like trying to, I have a problem with trying to optimize everything all of the time. And so I, especially when I was doing a lot of in homes, I would like, Waste a lot of time trying to calculate the best possible route to go to all of the, the in homes and like try to schedule them all to like, like completely optimize the whole, that, it, it was ridiculous, um, spending way more time trying to do that, but that also resulted in a lot of delays with communicating back to the clients in terms of scheduling, just getting overwhelmed and then when I would feel overwhelmed, that's when I just start saying yes to everything because I can't say no. and trying to figure out, like, okay, well, um, this one's over here and it's gonna be, like, 30 minutes. And, giving her just, like, a set of rules? Like, just basic Guidelines. Yeah. of how long the appointments were, and, and, the drive times, and, and everything. and then she took that, and now she just does it. And I don't have to make those decisions. And she doesn't have the emotional problems because it's not her. It's not her client, so she doesn't care. I mean, she does not care, but she doesn't And so she can just say, we have Thursday available. Instead of me trying to tack on, you know, something else to Wednesday. Like, she can just say, we have, these are the two appointments that we have. You know, this is the next availability. And there's none of the, again, none of the emotional stuff. Cause I, I'm totally like, well, I suppose I could fit one more in. Oh, well, you know. I could, like, not eat that. I can skip lunch, and, and, you know, yeah. You know, I could make, I'll figure out a way to make that work, and, and, you know, Oh my god. You know, I'm really scheduling three weeks out, but I could, Friday night? I don't need a day off, it's fine, it's cool. yeah. So, so she could, she could do that. And now it's even a step further, because I use Calendly for, um, people to select their own appointments. Oh yeah, so much easier, but online for stuff, yeah. Letting that go, I feel like can be really hard for a lot of us, especially those of us that are anxious and we're, I'm in that boat right now of trying to learn to, I described it to my husband as was like, I feel like I have my stove and I have multiple pans on and I'm not ready to give the pan to anyone else. I'm just going to keep juggling them and juggling them and trying to figure out. And he's just like, But there's so many things that like, it's just, it's taking up too much of your time and somebody else can do it that's better suited and that's their job to do it. But somehow I'm like, I don't want to waste the money. I don't want to like, it's fine. I can do it. I can handle it all. And so, what advice do you have for anyone that may be feeling that they are juggling too many pans on their stove right now? And just like, even if it's one hour every two weeks. Having someone take over. Any advice for that? I mean, it's not as expensive as you think. And, um, people One of the things that I have discovered, I don't know if this is even gonna answer your question, but whatever. people who aren't you can make, like, you know how, you know how no matter what your life looks like, you could totally get somebody else's life together if they would just listen to you, right? Like, that's very easy to see from here. From the outside. And I've discovered that that applies in, small ways as well. I can't make decisions for myself, but I can make decisions for other people. And so like I, my friend, uh, Lori Luck, who's also a trainer, also KPA faculty. And she. It's not quite, she does not have the challenge. She doesn't have all my, all my baggage. But, um, We, we noticed that we have the same thing because, like she told me she had just spent 45 minutes trying to pick out a photograph of her dogs to order, a custom mouse pad. Years ago when we had mice, mouses for computers. And I was like, oh! And so I go to her Instagram, I grab, A couple I thought looked really good. I uploaded them to, I don't know, Shutterfly or whatever we were looking at. And I just ordered a mouse pad and had it sent to her house. Because it didn't matter, right? Like, any of them would have been fine. And she's done the same thing for me on a number. I was like, I just need you to pick one of, like, I've been researching this for three days and I just need you know, a new wireless keyboard. Can you just Can you, can you, she would just like Like, this is the one you want, and like, send me to Amazon, like, and I would just, you know, click buy now. so, where was I going with that? Well, it does, it does answer of, of, like, having someone just be like, tell me which one. It's the control, yeah, it's the control, the control thing is so expensive. At least, I'm only talking about myself, but. It costs so much energetically that, um, even. That I'm, one, I'm already doing it badly. So that's part of what made it easy for me to delegate, because I'm already doing this poorly. So, like, somebody else doing it poorly, at least I'm not doing it. Right, and they'll probably be faster about it. And they're faster about it, and the people, it's like with my bookkeeper, he appears to love bookkeeping. He's passionate about it. He wants to do calls with me and talk to me about my books, and I was like, I just want to know how much I need to pay the IRS. Right. But he's really, gets as excited about bookkeepy things as I do about dog training things. Oh, that's what you want. That's the kind of person you want to hire. Totally. It is, I can't, it's unimaginable. but I can believe that it exists. And there are people for whom Scheduling stuff and, booking, whatever, isn't hard for them. Like, they actually enjoy those kinds of tasks. Mm hmm. the people with really organized pantries, I like to look at them on Instagram, but I never Like, we'll never, yeah, that's not me. there, there are people who, who like that and are good at it, and, so it, and this is part of the problem, like I, I use the smallest, you know, package of hours per month and I, and I rarely use them up because the things that were taking me, you know, five or ten hours a week, she does in an hour and a half because one, she's better at it. Two, she doesn't have the, the, like, waffling. The overthinking. The overthinking, um, stuff. And, and it just doesn't cost her as much. For 25 an hour, like that's, like, unbelievably, like, at the time I was like, well, I'm just gonna try this and I can always just schedule one extra lesson per week to cover it. Right, there's ways to subsidize and offset that if we need to. And it turned out, because the other thing that she does for me that made a huge impact, like, bringing back to the mental health thing, is she just deletes the emails that I don't need to see. Oh my god, yes. I had a discussion with Sarah Strumming about this last week. Um, she was saying that she has a, and after we hang up I'll tell you what she said the folder name is because it's quite hilarious. but she said that her assistant, like, there are certain, you know, emails, whether they're snarky or she just doesn't need to read them, her assistant will put them in the folder, Sarah never reads them. And I think that's so great, because it's just, you don't need to take that in, you don't need to see it, what's it going to do for you? But if you're managing it, you can't filter that. Yeah, no, and I felt for a long time like I was supposed to, like I had to to be a real person, like I had to read the letter. You need that critique and take it in. I had to be ready for the feedback, and of course I was expecting it. And I do want, well want's a strong word, but I do want feedback. Because I want to do a good job, that's important to me, and, you know, I'm doing the best I can, but I want to know, like, if I'm putting my energy in the right places, and, Right. Um, so I, I do want to know where I'm doing well and what I could do better at, and then I can make decisions of, well, actually, I can't do better at that, so I guess I need to figure out something else. and, but not everyone, because email is free. And especially since launching the podcast, there are people who believe that they, I need their opinion, and some of those emails, there's a nugget of something that I could make use of, and some of them are just garbage, like, like, I am so sorry that, you know, you had such a terrible childhood, but that trauma does not need to be expressed in my inbox. That's, that's how I, like, am generous. Because we're all, we're all, we're all working through stuff, yeah. and if yours, the way you're coping with that is sending strangers, all caps, emails. I'm not going to read it, um, but she can just delete those and she can pull the ones if there are some, some that have like, well, there's something in there that we could act on. That's worth picking apart. Yeah. She can. Pull it out and give it to me in a more straightforward, like, just factual, That isn't going to make you cry. Yeah, that is separated from the personal, critique. Like, okay, that is something, you know what, that's, that's a fair request. I could, you know, I could worry about that. Right. And then she saves the ones that I read. that are, that are nice. so that's helpful. But yeah, that just taking away the, just the, I don't know, the crazy ones from angry people who are just angry and I don't even see them and that's helped because one, I don't have the impact of those, but then I also don't have the, dread of opening my inbox because it may or may not contain an ugly email and it's not like I get that many. Like I don't, um, I don't get that many. It takes just one, though. Right. Right. And that's, yeah, I remember there's a quote that I read when I was first publishing my book from, I want to say Elizabeth Gilbert. And she said that reading reviews of your own creative work is like taking a bite of a sandwich that may or may not contain glass. And I was like, oh god, that's true. Ooh. Um, that's a really good way to put it. And, and I feel that way when I'm reading, you know, survey results. And I feel that way when I open my inbox because There may or may not be some like really angry person working stuff out on me and that, that would then kick me into the like procrastination dread cycle where I'm like dicking around and not accomplishing anything and I'm not going through my email because I was afraid of what might be in there. So then the email index gets backed up and now there's the shame of like real grownups would, would keep the inbox zero and you're at like inbox a thousand. So what kind of angry person are you? but now that I know that she's pulling those out and I don't ever even see, she doesn't even tell me that they were there. So they're just, they don't exist. They go away. it makes it so much easier for me to then go into my inbox on a regular, on my regular schedule and clear out the things that need my attention and. Great. And well, and you know, it's filtered in a way that it's not going to trip you up during your day or make you overthink or second guess how you're feeling about yourself. Cause we all wake up feeling, you know, not confident. Yeah. And then it's. It's like, Oh, here, let me open my inbox. And it's a big, you know, kick into the gut and you're like, Oh, well, that's a great way to start my day. Now. I'm just going to let that roll and take over. And it's so easy to get into that negative shame spiral and negative self talk and get real down on ourselves. It's the easiest one to lean into, but I think it takes a lot when we do have to read that stuff and finding like, okay, well. Well, how much of this is actually about me and how much of this can I actually just take with a grain of salt and improve because, you know, wolf culture, like I get plenty of backtalk from plenty of people who claim to be force free, but they are not force free to people. but that happens and I think I've just learned when someone is. Um, it's actually coming at we with good intention, good feedback that is useful, or are they just being a dick. Cause there is always that measure in there. and I think that's so important that you talk about that, and that And you have those guardrails to really protect yourself and your mental health for your business. Because that's something that a lot of us don't think about even, even, even if it's just someone that filters our inbox, it's so big. And it's not a big thing, but you having to go in and see just even the beginning of the email, it's like, oh, that's, it's like your stomach drops. Yeah. Just the little like preview that Gmail gives you that like that first sentence. You're like, oh, my day is going to go shit now. Yeah. Yeah. It just takes that one thing. Yeah. And, yeah. So, I'm glad that you do that. That is such a good goal to have. And it's something to work up to. It's not something that we can get right out the gate sometimes starting our business. But I think knowing that's a point that we can work towards. And it doesn't, it's not going to bleed our wallet dry just having that one thing implemented. Not at all. Like, like, really not at all. Like, it's, it's the amount of time that I got back that I could put towards the things that were making me money, to pay the bills, the amount of energy that I had, and then also, like, I was a better, I am a better trainer because one, fewer things fell through the cracks. People get responses. much faster, than they did before. So I can run more lessons, which meant that like, and it was, again, it was really one lesson. I was paying her the equivalent of one of my lessons per week. and now I pay her less than that because I've raised prices since whenever this was eight years ago, five years ago, I don't know. Time is a contract. But she, and she's raised her prices, so it, it, the not falling through the cracks, the not having, like, I have fewer emails in my inbox altogether because I no longer get the, did you get my email emails. Right. I was wanting to see, you know, just circling back, just circling back, I'm like, God damn, I need to answer them, get them on the calendar, but, also need to get my hair cut. I don't know how many, anyways, I, I wish I'd done it way, way earlier, but I, I did, I feel like, oh, well. Did you talk yourself out of like, feeling like you deserved, I put air quotes on that. absolutely don't deserve it because if I were a real person, I wouldn't need the help. Real professionals work through it, air quotes again. Real professionals. I should just be able to keep up with my inbox and definitely self criticism has worked so well for me, it changing all of that the whole, my whole life, um, I'll just really double down on, on feeling bad about it will help. It did not. Spoiler, did not help. Ow. But, but also just, I had in my mind. That it was going to be so expensive and I needed to wait until I had, you know, a more stable business. Or guess what? X amount in the account. Yeah. Yeah. Guess what? Um, not being able to consistently respond to scheduling emails. Does not result in a stable business, or a stable income flow. Yeah She sends invoices So I would do work and then I would fail to send the invoice to get paid She doesn't deposit checks for me. That is still on me. So I still have to deposit the checks but It I made way more money, more regularly, more consistently, once I had somebody making sure those things weren't falling through their cracks. That I was actually sending the invoices and keeping up with if they didn't get paid. That's the, if somebody's, card doesn't go through, she makes sure that that gets followed up on. Me, when the card didn't go through, or I remember the first time somebody bounced a check with me. I felt responsible for their balance check. Right. So Well, no one tells you how to navigate that either. I don't know how to do that. Like, what do you say? How do you, like I mean, I've experienced being the person who's paying the check or had the credit card decline, but I've never been on that side of it. and she just, like, unemotionally, like, like, hey, do you have another form of payment? And makes sure that the money comes through. So just the amount of money I was giving away on that kind of thing was was, I mean, it was embarrassing, and totally okay for her, her, her, you know, rate. Right, and something I always say is it just, it kind of comes out in the wash in that sense, like, whether it's coming back to your energy levels, to whatever you're putting back in your business, your time, downtime, whatever it is, it's going to end up going in that other category. yeah, so I, I feel like that's something that. If you are struggling with even just managing your inbox, just hiring someone to go through that weekly. It's a good toe into the waters of learning how to delegate. And it's, it's a learned skill. I think we do have to train ourselves in giving up those things and being able to pass those hats off to other people. Even though a lot of us are quote unquote control freaks and don't want to do that because I struggle with that all the time. Um, I tell my husband constantly to do chores, but then I'm like, you're not doing it the way I'm going to do it. So I'm just going to do them all. And then I'm like, why am I resentful that you don't? Take out the trash, because I keep doing it myself. Yes, yes, yes. I, you know, definitely have controlling stuff. Although it, just at least for me personally, it's less that I feel like they won't do it as well as me. I already feel like I'm not doing things. Like, I already just feel like I'm not doing things very well. It's the, It's more the admitting that I can't do better, or that it's not worth it, like Not in your wheelhouse? Yeah. Yeah, there's something in that for me. That, in that part, I have gotten much, much better at leaning into, like, oh, I don't have, like, it's not a reflection on my character That one's forcing you to, yeah. that I'm really bad at bookkeeping, or that I'm really bad at this other thing, or, Like, I, you know, I made the rules for her to do my scheduling. Like, she would handle when I was traveling and speaking a lot, doing seminars, she would handle making the travel arrangements and stuff. That had to be so helpful. Very very helpful. Just, again, just executive function. Just, she could work down a checklist, and I just can't. Oh. Let me overthink it for an hour or three. Let me overthink it, you know. And, yeah, so giving, you know, giving just some rules, like I, these are the hotels I prefer to stay at. These are the airlines. These are the You know, this is how long it takes me to get to the airport from, you know, my house and, and, you know, various rules like I, you know, I no longer will stay in someone's house when I'm traveling to speak. I need a hotel room because I need my own space. Yep. anyway, so it's just so much easier for her to hold those boundaries and follow those guidelines. And I was doing it poorly, like I wasn't following my own guidelines. What am I giving up control of here? Like it's, it's, so for, yeah, for me it was, it was the, I don't have to be good at everything. Just let that sink in. Yeah, I'm still working, I'm still working on that. I'm the same. Yeah, but the culture doesn't really help because we are, you know, you'll see, you'll see criticisms out there, like you have to be Uh, to make a living doing this, you have to be an expert at dog training, obviously. You also have to be an expert at teaching people. And so like, oh, you know, positive reinforcement dog trainer, that's one skill set. Being a positive reinforcement human instructor is a different skill set. And it's not guaranteed. but you are expected to be both. And then you're also expected to be good at customer service. That's yet another skill set. That's not one that I'm particularly happy. and you're also supposed to be good at, at, you know, at marketing communication and bookkeeping. Yeah, and business management. And scheduling. And I'm like, holy crow. So I need to go back. Let's just count out the graduate degrees that I'm going to be accumulating in the next decade. I absolutely need the, uh, master's in social work. I think we all can agree on that one. I'm gonna need an MBA, for sure, for that as well. And then probably something in marketing. can't do sales. Cause I understand a little bit the difference between marketing and sales. I don't, but I understand a little bit because I can, podcasts are to a certain extent, right, element, but the sales is where you actually have to tell people to buy. And I'm better at saying you probably won't like this. it's a psychological warfare in that, I guess it's complicated, yeah, there's a lot we're supposed to be good at that we're expected to be good at. I am not good at all of those things. No, and I think we, we internalize a lot of it and get into the doubt of like, okay, now I'm not good at this, and how am I supposed to like, keep this and make a living doing this when apparently I suck at everything. When, I mean, pfft. Right. And then also, as a woman, I also am supposed to be an expert at housekeeping. I'm also supposed to, uh, but I'm also supposed to, like, keep up with car maintenance? what? And then there's this whole refrigerator coil situation. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. Like, there's thousands of examples of things that I have discovered that I was supposed to have been doing as a homeowner. Like, okay, you're supposed to, you know, They need to give you a book or like a video of like things you need to check like x amount of times during the year because no one told me that I needed to check my dryer vent. And get that cleaned. I'm like, someone's supposed to do that. Like, what? Sorry. Did I just add to that anxiety? No, I am actually on top of the dryer vent situation. So that, that one, I, that one I had was good. I did not know that the thing with the refrigerator coils is I thought I was doing it and it turns out that I've just this whole time been vacuuming the cover on the ice maker. There's like a. whatever the pump or the motor, I don't know. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. It has this little cover on it, and I thought that was a refrigerator coil, and it's not. It's actually not. So, I actually thought I was doing it, but I was not, it turns out I had not been this entire time. So, years and years of, of that. I also thought I was doing okay with changing the, filters for my HVAC. Oh yeah, don't get me on that one. Yeah, no. It turns out there's also a filter inside the furnace that you have to like climb up there and get it. I found that out, like, two months ago. And somehow we're trusted to run our own businesses and we, you know, I don't know how that They let me take a baby home from the hospital, like I barely had to sign anything. They just, like, let me walk away with her. Are you sure? I, like, kind of know how to feed her. I don't know. Somebody, like, What if she wakes up? I, I cannot do that right now. So I applaud anyone that has little human beings and runs a business and, you know, has a hobby. Like, that's a lot. Are we supposed to have hobbies? Oh, sorry. I am just assuming you have time for those ones, yes. It's on my list. Yeah, Sarah's drumming was like, I had to google what hobbies were before we hopped on because I do everything's dog training. I'm like, I feel that. Is gardening a hobby? Is standing in the yard staring at the sun a hobby? Because that's what I do. I, how about, how about online shopping? Is that a hobby? Oh, hardcore, yes. I'm into that one, yeah. Or, or just, uh, throwing a bunch of things into the cart and then overthinking and thinking about it for a week and then talking myself out of how I don't deserve or need those things. Yes, yes, yes. so we talked just like a hair about imposter syndrome and I do want to ask you, you know, since you do talk on the platforms and at conferences and you were asked to speak. On top of, you know, navigating having a podcast for, successfully, quite a few years now, you've been doing How has the imposter syndrome been within that realm, and, and, feeling like, yes, I do deserve to be here, and I do know what I'm talking about, and, and people want to hear what I have to say? I mean, it's still there. I won't lie. I, it's a, you know, I just do it anyways, like, Do you kind of just like, kind of push yourself like, all right, let's, I just, yeah, I, I just, I, I don't know. I just, I just like swallow the nausea and I just like squinch up my eyes and, and I just, and I just get it done. It's like, um, I think it's like Elise Meyers on, uh, TikTok or whatever says, like, you know, do it scared. Like, that's, I'm not not scared. Like, at no point have I ever not been, like, am I still, like, super sweaty before I get up on stage? Absolutely. do I, like, like, use the bathroom six times, um, before, like, an hour before? Absolutely, like, that's not changed. None of that has changed. I just I have, I mean, it's fluency, honestly, I just, um, To learn skill. Yeah, I have gotten fluent and then, and I can just do more things while terrified. and that, that part, that part has gotten easier to a certain extent, uh, or larger, maybe not easier, but it, you know, it encompasses more. Right. so before I let you go, I do want to talk about burnout just a little bit because it's, it's inevitable. It happens. And sometimes, especially with the brains that we have, we like to, me specifically, I will go, go, go, go, go, and then crash and be like, why am I burnt out? Why am I crying over looking at my email? so how is the burnout for you? How do you. Try your best to prevent it, and then how do you kind of bounce back from So a little hard question. Um, I know. So I've had like little burnouts, didn't feel little at the time, but like little experiences with that at different times in my life. Oh, sure. And then the larger one that I think we've all hit with, the pandemic and just everything fine. And then the two years of doing school from home by myself while also trying to Like, continue a business, which had to change rather dramatically. Right. Which can happen to, to most of us. Um, maybe not everybody trying to do school from home with a small child at the same time. but you know, no support. Like that was, that was damage. Like that was, that did damage to me that I'm still trying to claw my way back from. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, but I will say, so for me, one of the things that I've learned. the big, like the warning sign that I'm about to get in trouble, I'm gonna, I've got a couple, but a big one that I keep an eye on, the closest eye on, is when I find myself getting irritated with my clients, my, my students. In what way? For, for not knowing the things that I haven't taught them. And that is a, like, that's one of my core values that I, um, that I hold because I had the experience from the others. There, there are, and this kind of ties into the, like, why tens aren't the best to teach twos, right? the. The attitude that I've encountered with some professionals at times where, such that you feel like you're an idiot for not knowing something that nobody's ever taught you. and I set out from the beginning to watch out for that tone and to try really, to work really hard. To not have that tone with clients, you mean? Just stay, yeah. To stay out of that. Well, to stay away from people who are in that space. Right. Right. and also not to get into that space myself. And so if I find, like, someone's asking me a question that is a valid question on the subject matter that they are paying me to teach them and I'm irritated with them for wanting me to do my job, that tells me that there's something That needs attention. Why am I feeling that way right now? Yeah, right. That, that is a, it's not even super early. That, that's the like, you have begun the process of falling off a cliff. So, when I catch myself having those feelings, I need to change something right away. and some of the time it's just like, hey, you know, just, you know, sit down, like I'm, I need to take Monday off, um, I'll be back in the office on Tuesday, or sometimes longer. Um, I need to take a few days off, and I want you to walk away. when I catch it early, then I'm able to circle back to what, what I've loved that got me started on this path in the first place. Like, I love learning, and so, that often means, like, okay, I'm gonna Trim my schedule for, you know, the next couple of days or whatever is, depends on many variables. and then find something to learn about that is exciting to me. So like hit some novelty. Hit some, ideally, some external validation of some kind. So, doing a course that has a certificate at the end. So, you know, like Susan Friedman's LLA. Right. was a, was one I used in that space at one point. Um, and I've done, I did KPA under similar circumstances early on. But find something, something where I can like touch on that, the things that got me excited. Like reignite you. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like learn something new. Take, um, you know. Pick up a new sport. Um, pick up, like, find, like, so for, for, for me, my rest, I'm gonna put in air quotes, is not the same as, as like, like going to a spa. Although I do sometimes fantasize about being hospitalized with nothing very dangerous or painful, but just for maybe a week or two weeks. Just to like nap. Yeah. Nobody, nobody would want anything from me. Um, that's, that's actually, and that actually took me a while to land on because it doesn't sound like it would be RESTful, but for how my system works, that's the, my daughter calls it shaking up her glitter jar, and, and I think that's actually kind of perfect, I need. I need to, I need something to shake it up to get stimulated. and I mean, that doesn't address the like, like there still has to be like the physical needs need to be, like I need to, usually when that has happened, I've also not been sleeping. I've also like been falling asleep. Things like, it all tends to come as, you know, chicken or egg, but they all tend to fall on that same cycle. So I still need to make sure I'm getting sleep. I need to drink the water. I need to eat food. cause I tend to stop eating when I'm getting into that space. Um, yeah. All kinds of bad, disordered behavior patterns start to show up there. Which again, there's a lot of things that I can look for, like, Oh, I am only drinking protein shakes, and that's like the only source of calories that I've had in the last three days. Great. What's going on? We're getting into that place. so, but yeah, so, so, for me, those are the things. That, that helped me recover. And it does take, it does have to, like, because again, time is, is, what's a contract? But also, like, Smoothing it out. Yeah. Yeah. Not having them all blend together. It will mean, like, at least temporarily replacing some of the revenue. acquiring. Like, time, tasks, with, this, like, enrichment, I need more enrichment in my enclosure, yes, but that's been, that's really been the most helpful thing for me, something in that, like, it looked like a lot of different things, but, Yeah, well, and I think it's also what you're feeling that you need in the moment, because you may not need the same thing every time we're human. Mandy, I need exactly the same thing, like, and I tried, I tried the stuff that, like, like the mental health influencers, like I did the coloring, I have a paint by number, but I've never finished a paint by number in my life, I can't finish a cross I can't sit down that long, yeah, I can't sit down, but the, the learning something new is helpful for stimulating, it always helps me generate, You're getting out of your mind, too. Gets me out of my head, it, it, it, I was just, I was talking to a person recently who's a local neighbor who is a first responder and loves, does, like blacksmithing, and like craft, like, blacksmithing. That's so random! That's his hobby, and he was saying, well, because you can't think about anything else, you've got molten hot metal, like, you can't get distracted. Or you'll burn your leg off or whatever. And I was like, I totally get that. Like, I feel that way about, like, the things, riding horses and, and train, working, especially working with certain types of dogs that I tend to gravitate towards. Take your eye off the ball if you're going to pull back and watch your fingers. Yeah. So, yeah, so, so those are very helpful for me, but also, again, and this is maybe just specific to me, but other people may experience as well. It helps me so much stay in the place of empathy for my learners when I'm spending a significant amount of my time as a learner. Putting yourself in that, yeah, that mind state. Yeah, who doesn't know what's going on, who doesn't know how to find stuff, which seems obvious to people who've been doing it for a long time. And that has helped me. So much, because I work, my, my, you know, my online program is for people who are getting started in novice obedience, so first level obedience, and I mean, that's part of my, my imposter complex of like, I can't teach people, competitive sports because I don't have, you know, world championship, and I've not been doing it for as long as most of the people. So. In this industry, or certainly in the competition industry, because it's, you know, it's an expensive hobby that takes time and money. And most of us who are in our, you know, 20s and 30s don't have that, and certainly not once you start having kids and stuff. So, what's wrong with that? Oh, but I'm not trying to teach people who want world championships. I want to work with the people who want to get started. Right. They just want to do really good training and they want a, you know, a project to work on. Like they're probably coming from very much the same place that I am when I'm going to, uh, you know, Frisbee dog, um, seminar or fly ball. Yeah. Just gaining insight, gaining knowledge and, and, yeah, learning stuff, doing good training and having a, you know, a project, a medium to apply these things to as you're learning. So it's not just, you know, abstract anymore. And part of what makes me good at that is when it wasn't that long ago that I was the novice, competitor. Right. Five minutes ago, as far as I'm concerned. So again, that makes me more qualified than someone who's, it's been 30 years. Right. Since they had a novice doc. but because of that, I really, it's really important to me to keep it fresh, what it is like to feel like a beginner. And to, to be a learner, and the best way for me to do that is to go out, find something new I'm interested in, but I don't know very much about, and, have that experience. And then I always gain some kind of insight that I can bring back and it changes how I teach. Yeah! Oh, that's so good. But I think a lot of us don't think to, like, even go to that, because it's like, well, that's dog training. Technically, that's work. That's not relaxing. But I think it's just what your brain needs in the moment that's going to get you out of the spiral and the self doubt and the down talk. Because, yeah, when you're a learner, you're new and everyone else in that platform is going to be on the same level as you. So you're not going to have that, like, inferiority complex with anyone. Yeah. And it, I mean, it doesn't have, at least for me, it doesn't have to be dog training. It often is, it is helpful when it, so I did like a, like a running class a couple of years ago, a course for like, form, like running technique, and I learned a lot about coaching physical skills in a way that was really useful and I was able to bring that back. That can still get applied. Yeah. And see like, oh, this is a way. And then I learned things like, oh, well, I would never organize information like this because this is really overwhelming. And then I turn around, I look and I'm like, oh, I've been doing exactly the same thing. Let's break that down. Why are my clients frustrated? Oh. Yeah, exactly. well, this conversation has been so awesome. I. Have always loved your sense of humor and so just having it applied with the mental health feel has been awesome And I'm excited to see what our listeners think of it any last minute advice for anyone that is starting new business trying to just Change their angle right now, and they're feeling stuck feeling like they don't deserve to do it. It's going to sound cliche and like kind of overdone, but I really think that the biggest piece of I said I would have given myself would be the, that, that niching down in some way, and different resources presented in different ways, like different ways to do it. And I don't think it matters. Like, I think it doesn't matter. I know it works for you. Um, and it can, okay, well, here's two. This is, this is a terrible parenthesis. pick a horse and ride it is another one that I, that's a little mantra because You're gonna be listening, and you're like, well, how do I niche down? Like, well, I like working with reactive dogs, or you don't like working with them, or whatever. Or, but, you know, I also really like puppies. And, but I also, you know, I feel compelled to help rescues. it, you don't have to marry it. Like, pick one. Try it out. Try it out. And then you can always change, or evolve, or, or, you know, nudge it. And just, it doesn't, it doesn't, it probably doesn't matter. Like, like it doesn't matter. Right. It doesn't need to be permanent. It can change. It doesn't need to be, it doesn't need to be the perfect niche. It doesn't need to be perfectly described. Like I, I took, like I read, I took an online course at the beginning of trying to figure out how to be a business owner and not go to jail. And it's like, oh, you have to like write your perfect customer avatar. And I just spiraled because, like, and then, and it was a long time later, I was like, oh, well now I understand the principle that they were trying to get at with that. Right. And it turns out I'm actually already doing that. I didn't need to do it that way to get to, like, who am I good at helping? I'm good at helping people that are a lot like me. That are a lot like me five years ago. Those are the people that I am the best equipped. It's the five years ago me. so, that's, that, that, the niching down that you don't have to take everything, I don't do separation anxiety. Period. Ever. I'm not gonna do it. And there's people that specify in that. They love it. Yeah. I'm so grateful that they are out there, that they exist, and I refer in a heartbeat. I don't even read the fourth message, the first sentence in your email. Let me give you a list of somebody in your area. Right. Here's three really qualified people that can help you. And those people niching down is like their business crew that way. So, yes. Exactly. That actually really helps. I don't need a dog trainer in Detroit. I need a separation anxiety specialist. Beautiful. Here's people that love separation anxiety and are really good at it. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Hannah. It's been so awesome having you on. Um, definitely going to need to have you on for another episode because we can't talk about mental health enough. So. Especially these days. Yes. For sure. Thank you for having me. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,