Ever wondered how systematic innovation can transform organizations and businesses for enhanced decision-making? We had the honor of visiting with Darrell Mann, an expert in this field who has worked across various industries and continents with a focus on research and decision-making.
Darrell Mann is CEO of Systematic Innovation, Ltd. A prolific writer and researcher, his recent books include: The Hero's Startup Journey, EveryThink, Dealing with the Mirage and Generation Z.
He shares fascinating insights on 25 years of generational research, the decision-making process for innovation, and the perspectives of people from different countries. You'll also hear about his current work in India, China, United States and Europe and the cultural challenges of operational excellence and true innovation.
In this conversation, we get an introduction to TRIZ, a theory of inventive problem solving, and how difficult it is for people to move away from a focus on operational excellence. We learn about his billion-dollar success story with Procter and Gamble and how Samsung has thrived through use of the principles of systematic innovation.
Join us for this first enlightening episode (First of Three Episodes) as we dive into the factors that contribute to successful innovation and the challenges leaders face in today's rapidly changing world.
Ever wondered how systematic innovation can transform organizations and businesses for enhanced decision-making? We had the honor of visiting with Darrell Mann, an expert in this field who has worked across various industries and continents with a focus on research and decision-making.
Darrell Mann is CEO of Systematic Innovation, Ltd. A prolific writer and researcher, his recent books include: The Hero's Startup Journey, EveryThink, Dealing with the Mirage and Generation Z.
He shares fascinating insights on 25 years of generational research, the decision-making process for innovation, and the perspectives of people from different countries. You'll also hear about his current work in India, China, United States and Europe and the cultural challenges of operational excellence and true innovation.
In this conversation, we get an introduction to TRIZ, a theory of inventive problem solving, and how difficult it is for people to move away from a focus on operational excellence. We learn about his billion-dollar success story with Procter and Gamble and how Samsung has thrived through use of the principles of systematic innovation.
Join us for this first enlightening episode (First of Three Episodes) as we dive into the factors that contribute to successful innovation and the challenges leaders face in today's rapidly changing world.
Welcome to Stories in Life. You're on the radio with Mark and Joe. We share stories that affirm your belief in the goodwill, courage, determination, commitment and vision of everyday people.
Mark Wolak:
Our goal is that through another person's story you may find connection. No matter your place in life. The stories we select will be inspiring and maybe help you laugh, cry, think or change your mind about something important in your life.
Joe Boyle:
Join us for this episode of Stories in Life.
Mark Wolak:
Welcome to another episode of Stories in Life. Have you ever met someone who fills you with new information, insights that you've not had before, insights about the world, how decisions are made, new knowledge that transfers to your life? Well, that's what happened to me when I met Darrell Mann about 10 years ago. He is so knowledgeable and experienced in helping people in organizations make great decisions. He's knowledgeable about systematic innovation. He's knowledgeable about generational research and the patterns of generations across continents. He's knowledgeable about how people think, what their perspectives are like in Asia, in the United States, in Scandinavia, in the UK. He's a wonderful human being, a great person, and I can't wait for you to get to know him in this episode.
Joe Boyle:
We welcome systematic innovator, Darrell Mann, to our studios today.
Mark Wolak:
We have just a huge passion about getting some really good stories out there, and you've got one. I'm curious, you mentioned in a text or an email exchange that you're working across continents on Zoom or Team.
Darrell Mann:
Yes, so today's work has been with a team in India and working with a client on leadership skills. That's this morning. And then, this afternoon, we're putting together a proposal for a railway company in Europe, and they've decided that they need to be more innovative and are really right at the beginning of the journey. So it's been pretty painful establishing from them; where they are and where they want to get to and what resources they've got available. I think we're winning. And then we've got this session, and then I've been doing some work with first responders and talking to an actual first responder for very asymmetric threats, so earthquakes, big things like that in Denmark, and so we're putting together a paper at the moment, and so evenings is his best time. So, yeah, we're going to try and put the paper together.
Mark Wolak:
Well, thank you for taking your afternoon's time for our show. Joe, do you have a starter question for us?
Joe Boyle:
I'd like to know, and our listeners will need to know, what systems innovation actually means. Could you give a layman's definition of what it is?
Darrell Mann:
Of innovation itself?
Joe Boyle:
Well, i know there's innovation and then there's systematic innovation. Yeah, okay, maybe you can specify the difference.
Darrell Mann:
Yes. So I would say that the idea behind what we've been trying to do for the last 25 years is, if you look at the global statistics for innovation, and was I successful? So did I add value? Did I make money? Yeah, whatever we find success, as then, 98% of innovation attempts are going to end in failure, and so what we've been trying to do is to decode.
Darrell Mann:
Okay, what's the difference between the 98% that failed and the 2% that were successful? We could have found that it was completely random, of course, but what we found was there are some very clear differences between the successful people and the less successful people, and so systematic innovation effectively became let's put together all those things that the successful people have been doing over the years, and so we tend to use the expression DNA. So what is the DNA of success? And, more recently, we've been using the expression First Principle, trying to distill the world down to first principles, and if we can understand those first principles, then we've got a much better chance of being in the 2% when we've finished, and the 98% who failed.
Joe Boyle:
Can you give an example of something that in the two percent area, an example of someone you worked with?
Darrell Mann:
So, in terms of things that we've worked on directly, we've been very fortunate over the years to work with Procter and Gamble, so we've been involved in a number of their billion dollar brands. But the one that's got our hallmark all over it, I would say is Swiffer, in the US, which was a billion dollar brand. We were there literally right at the beginning, and the first couple of million dollars that were spent on trying to work out what the problem that needed to be solved was.
Joe Boyle:
Now, everybody has one or two.
Darrell Mann:
Yeah, it's. one of the things that I find really strange is that when we were doing all the work for it in the US and there was some thinking about, okay, should we take this to the UK? And when we looked at the demographics in the UK and the frustrations of people in the UK, we thought this is not going to work. And it's only, I would say, in the last 18 months or so that that Swiffer Light product has begun to make inroads in the UK. So there's definitely been a demographic shift, I think, in the direction of a Swiffer Light product.
Mark Wolak:
Darrell, what are you seeing with leadership across the continents and the countries that you're working in? Because I know at one time before COVID, you were traveling 275 days a year to help people around the world. What are you seeing with leadership today?
Darrell Mann:
So I'm just finished off a book at the moment which is called Future Proof, and one of the things that the book is built around is a metaphor of Red World, Green World. And so, Red World is effectively the world of operational excellence, improving the current way of doing things, and then Green World is innovation world. It's the time when an organization says right, we're going to make a jump now to a different way of doing things. The idea behind Future Proof is that in most organizations it's an enormous imbalance between Red World and Green World. Far too much Red World operational stuff and not nearly enough innovation stuff. What that's meant, I think, is that when COVID-19 came along, all of the Red World leaders think they built just in time supply chains and everything was very, very efficient Very quickly. I think they all found themselves in some form of chaos. They needed more Green World thinking.
Darrell Mann:
Unfortunately, when you talk to the Red World leadership inside organizations and I say almost exclusively when you get to the top of an organization, it is that operational mindset, because what gets people promoted inside organization is hitting KPIs, it's meeting all of your targets, it's doing following the rules, all the stuff that we would expect with continuous improvement, whereas the innovation stuff is traditionally much more risky, and so you tend to see the innovation people. They don't rise up the hierarchy. So you've got leadership which is very dominated by operational excellence thinking, and that, i think, made the crisis worse for organizations when COVID came along, because they, first of all, they didn't know what to do. Because suddenly, they're just in time, supply chain had collapsed, for example. What we're seeing is just great that we've got a lot more senior leadership teams coming to us and saying, please help. But the downside is, I think, they are a long, long way away from being able to deal with the new world that they find themselves in now.
Darrell Mann:
(As a leader) You are very uncomfortable in this Green World where it's all about uncertainty and confusion and breaking rules to find better rules, and it's just not part of that leadership DNA. So what we've seen is that they either recognize the problem or, what they're looking for is a bandaid type solution that's going to fix things as quickly as possible. But, unfortunately that's just not the way you get out of chaos. So it's a much smaller group that, I think, is saying okay. Well, I acknowledge it's not going to be an easy journey to get back to where we were. Never mind, yeah, staying in business. So we're going to have to embark on a much deeper dive program to re-skill people and give them these Green World skills, this ability to deal with confusion.
Joe Boyle:
Is that a tough sell to companies?
Darrell Mann:
Yeah, I think it is. But I've reached a point now where we decided just before the pandemic hit, so we were in the "making a difference business And we've never had any sales people, never had any marks in people at all. So people find us And you know that's, that's been a great thing for us. So what's what I've been able to do is have a, I would say, a meaningful discussion with leadership teams, and if it doesn't feel like they're actually going to put in the hard yards to be successful, then I'm just very open and so I (say, I) just don't think you'll do it. I also know, when I say those words, that what, where they're likely to go next, is one of the big five consulting companies.
Darrell Mann:
I think in many ways, the big consulting companies are a big part of the reason why we've got so many problems right now, because they're the ones that have been teaching operational excellence, this Red World start to leadership teams in their clients for the last 40 years it's created. I think this almost impossible to solve problem for some leaders. I mean, some will will knock all down and put in hard yards. But yeah, so our job, i think, is to try and weed out the ones that are prepared to do that from those that are just playing a game, I would say. So one of the first tests we've looked to apply is: how long is this chief executive, for example, going to be in place?
Darrell Mann:
What they're thinking is, "is something really bad going to happen in the next couple of years while I'm still in this role? if the answer is no, then they're probably not going to do anything. Anyway, if the pandemic has taken them into unfortunate territory, they're just trying to get back to normality as soon as possible. And if they can't understand that that's not going to happen, then I'm in a position now that where I say I'm sorry, i don't think we can help you.
Joe Boyle:
Looking at your website, it's said that you are the only true innovation company on the planet. Is that true?
Darrell Mann:
Yeah, I've had so many comments from the rest of my team for putting those words on there!
Darrell Mann:
Yeah, I mean there is a hyperlink on the word "on the website! So we do qualify a little bit, but I think one of the things that we've noticed in the last three years in particular, we wrote an article, it probably is exactly three years ago now on it's called defining innovation 40 years too late. And, I think the problem is that that the innovation word has got so many different meanings depending on who you are. And so we did a program of research just to look through the business literature, look through things like Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, etc. And try to decode the definitions that people were using for innovation. And, you find there are three dominant definitions.
Darrell Mann:
The biggest one is that innovation equals lots of new ideas. The next (definition) is it's only innovation when you've implemented the idea. And the third definition is the one IT'S ONLY INNOVATION WHEN YOU'VE BEEN SUCCESSFUL AND YOU'VE HIT THE TARGETS THAT YOU WANTED TO. That is the definition that we use. It doesn't get used by many authors, but it's the one that says: So, the reason I justify my statement that we're the only innovation company is we're the only ones that have been able to decode what is it that enables you to be successful.
Darrell Mann:
So, there are certainly lots of people out there offering innovation. It's interesting the big five consulting companies. They know they can't do it, but they've been buying up boutique agencies who, unfortunately for them, also don't know how to do it, but they just have innovation in their name. Being able to decode what does success look like and what are the characteristics that you need to be able to deliver it inside your organization. That distinguishes us, and I've been saying to the team for a number of years now we've been given the keys to the kingdom. It is a systematic process, it is unique. The new problem, i think, is trying to find where the lock is. So we've got the key, but who wants the key? That's where I think we still struggle, right right, good metaphor there.
Joe Boyle:
I suppose this is where that amazing matrix that you put together comes in as a tool. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you arrived at it? I mean, that's pretty complicated stuff there.
Darrell Mann:
Yeah, it's definitely standing on the shoulders of giants, i would say. So what we've been able to do for the last 25 years (that's how long we've had a research team) is start from a premise that someone's done some hard work for you, and in our case it's the methodology TRIS from the former Soviet Union. That is one of the things that starts completely by accident but delivers the first clues towards what this innovation DNA is. So that team of researchers, what they were doing, was they were told to go and find good patterns. And now, as soon as you're given that question, you've got to work out what's the difference between a good one and a bad one. And so the only thing that they could do to answer that question was to look at success. Let's look at products that have been successful and then go back and find the patterns, and then we'll reverse engineer what happened in those patterns. The thing that really stands out from that kind of analysis and they, by all accounts, looked about a million case studies. We came along and said we've got computer technology, we can do that much faster now, so we've got 11 million case studies. But what really stands out when you look at the 2% of the successful attempts is not making trade-offs and compromises. So in TRIS the word is contradiction.
Darrell Mann:
I think society uses lots and lots of different words to mean essentially the same thing. So paradox, conundrum, trade-off situation, chicken and egg situation, that we're surrounded by these conundrums, these difficult problems, and I think, largely due to the education system. We're all taught that you've got to make trade-offs in life. So zero sum bias is, i think, a very dominant thing in people's minds. And so I think there's a on some part that's the Red World leaders again the reluctance to even acknowledge the idea that you can solve contradictions. You don't have to make trade-offs. But that matrix is literally a database of us reversing engineering, all those people that have been before us that had successfully found a contradiction and then were persevering enough to identify okay, well, here's how we can get a win-win solution. We don't have to make the trade-off, i can have my cake and I can eat my cake as well. So the 11 and a half million data points is essentially eleven and a half million inventors, problem solvers that refuse to accept the trade-off.
Mark Wolak:
I wanted to not lose that train of don't make trade-offs. We had an interesting circumstances winter in the Minneapolis St Paul area. So much snowfall they couldn't get the streets plowed, people couldn't get to work. So they began to allow people to use the parking garages to put their cars in at night so that they could plow the streets the next day and not have all these cars to tow.
Joe Boyle:
I thought it was an amazing example of not making a trade-off.
Mark Wolak:
And so for our listeners. that's an example (of innovation) at a level of government, but there's all kinds of trade-offs people make in their personal lives all the time, right, Instead of looking for the innovation
Darrell Mann:
To be fair to people, for most of our lives we're busy people, so the way our brain has evolved is we're really good at remembering patterns. So when we get up in the morning then we've remembered the various activities we go through to get out the door and into the car and to the office. And very often we can get all the way to the office and not have any memory at all of what's happened for the last 45, 50 minutes or so. So for most of our lives that hasn't harmed me. Capability is wonderful. Saves a lot of time and effort. When it comes to being inventive, first of all, before the innovation.
Darrell Mann:
Then this TRIZ research says you've got to solve the trade-off. People's minds are switched. Where it says okay, well, I mean everyday world now. So I'm going to have to accept the trade-offs. Getting up, you know alarm clock going off and getting to work you've probably made hundreds of trade-offs there because your job was to get to work. But when you sit down and say no, no, right now we need to find a breakthrough solution to this problem. You don't have to make those trade-offs anymore. And if you can get people to turn that switch, that says okay, I'm going to turn off the trade-off mindset now, or myself to think about solutions where I can have best of both worlds. Then I think all the TRIZ research and what we've done since demonstrates that it's completely possible to do that.
Joe Boyle:
Are there any companies you could point out that we would all know that are obviously successful in using systematic innovation, and maybe some that have failed for obvious reasons? I don't know if you're comfortable doing that, but it would be nice to give our listeners some examples of that.
Darrell Mann:
Yeah, i would say probably the biggest success story has been Samsung. So yeah, so if you look at what's happened to them in the last, let's say, 15 years in particular, maybe 20 years, I mean they first started using TRIZ probably 2000- 2001. We did one of our first projects with them. We just got three problems solving teams together in a workshop, with real problems. One of them, one of those problems, turned into very quickly at $92 million savings. And, from that point onward, every manager inside Samsung, it felt like, wanted to bring TRIZ into their domain.
Darrell Mann:
So, yeah, right now they've trained probably 35,000 people. Every one of them, I would say, is very conscious of the idea of looking for trade-offs. Once you've found one, doing your best to avoid making that trade-off. So I think they're probably the most successful organization, although ironically and it would be fantastic for me instead of continued promoting themselves as a TRIZ engaged company. So back in, let's say, 2010 or so, they were still arriving at conferences saying, yeah, here's what we're doing with TRIZ, and then, for some reason which I can probably imagine why, if I was in their place I would have done the same, they shut the doors and basically stopped telling the world what they were doing. It's one of those things where I would say if you've got something that's working, why would you share it with your competitors? I think one of the reasons that TRIZ is still very much and systematic innovation very much an underground thing is because nobody has stood up and said yeah, we've been successful because we used this.
Darrell Mann:
And you asked about failures. Right, I would say one of the biggest failures has been GE. The reason for that and again, we've worked with them over the years is obviously a very successful Sigma organization. So the idea of continuous improvement and when you've trained 300,000 people in your business to be continuously improving, reducing variation, when you realize that innovation means increasing variation, you've now realized you've just told 300,000 people to do the wrong thing.
Darrell Mann:
So when they started to introduce TRIZ into the organization, based on what I saw when I was working with them, to do that, that's underpinning DNA of reduced variation, Sigma overwhelmed the innovation stuff. As far as I can see from my outsider's perspective, Jack Welch was the Sigma guy, the guy that said you're all going to do it. And, he came along at a perfect point in the continuous improvement cycle. It really made a difference. Then Jeff Immelt comes in and Jeff Immelt's job is to say we don't expect a transformation, we just make some of these bigger jumps. So he was brought in with direction to do the innovation stuff. But, as we now know, he kind of failed with that mission because the Sigma DNA beat the innovation DNA.
Joe Boyle:
And now it's time for Stories in Life. Art from the Heart, deep thoughts from the shallow end. Each episode, we bring you a poem, a song or a reading, just for you.
Mark Wolak:
You were just listening to the fabulous John Mayall singing "Mess Around from the Jazz Blues Fusion album 1972. We hope you enjoyed that. Joe. I found out that Darrell Mann is an avid concertgoer, loves music, plays the guitar, left-handed, by the way. When I saw him he was interested in the music I was listening to. So I gave him that album and he said he enjoyed it. So that's why we picked John Mayall for our song today.
Joe Boyle:
You can find out more about Darrell Mann and his company Systematic Innovation at Systematic-Innovation. com.
Mark Wolak:
Thank you, Joe. You can find out more about us at storiesinlife. buzzsprout. com.
Joe Boyle:
Listeners, Darrell Mann was just getting warmed up there. Wait until you hear the next episode where he discusses where to start to choose the right problems to solve.
Mark Wolak:
And he gets into generational cycles. research, which he intended to disprove it and over 25 years, has found it to be true that there is a four-generation archetype globally in China, the US, UK, Scandinavia, Brazil, and Eastern Europe. And, that we're going to have chaos for a little bit, but after Generation Z we're going to have some new leaders emerge.
Joe Boyle:
So join us on the next episode of Stories in Life on the Radio with Mark and Joe.