Navigating Identity: Decolonization, Cultural Appropriation, and Embracing Our Roots

Ready to shake up your worldview? Join us on this thought-provoking journey as we unravel the ties of colonialism and its effects on our identities, spirituality, and much more. We'll start by challenging you to rethink and renegotiate the structures and ideologies that colonialism has engendered in our lives, penetrating deep into subjects like the caste system and anti-blackness to decipher their influence on our culture. 

Our conversation takes a sharp turn towards examining cultural assimilation from a BIPOC perspective, peeling back the layers of complexity inherent in living outside the dominant culture. We'll share valuable insights from literary giants like Toni Morrison, and delve into the delicate intricacies of cultural appropriation, underlining the importance of understanding other cultures instead of appropriating them. There's a whole discussion about the power and pitfalls of language, and the hesitations we often face as BIPOC individuals when utilising certain words.

As we navigate through this enlightening terrain, we'll discuss the complexities of acknowledging our cultural and ancestral identities while grappling with the appropriation of cultural elements by the dominant culture. This conversation is aimed at inspiring you to understand and respect your roots. We'll conclude with the importance of conversation and unity, encouraging you to embrace your identity and learn more about decolonization. We firmly believe that understanding each other can help dismantle oppressive systems, and we extend an invitation to you to be part of this transformative journey.

Make sure to Subscribe and follow us at:
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/motherlandthepodcast/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@motherlandpodcast/
Email: podcastmotherland@gmail.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:20

I remember last week I was like let's break down some of the terms we use, because I felt that people don't understand. Maybe they do, I don't know, but when we talk about decolonizing or assimilating or even I don't know, I'm pulling up my notes. I did keep notes right now, Even as far as it goes with we talked Odeisha's different stuff like that. I don't know what your thoughts. Let's do that.

Speaker 2: 0:53

I broke my dog. I've been taking her on very long walks in the morning. We did a five mile walk this morning and she's been asleep in the same spot since we got up.

Speaker 1: 1:08

Oh my God, I heard her barking.

Speaker 2: 1:13

But she was barking from laying down, she was just like, and then I broke the dog.

Speaker 1: 1:22

Did you hear? We had a hurricane in California. It was not like that, it was just rain and wind. It was not a hurricane. My little butt was running the street still, so it's all good Anyway. All right, let's do it. Welcome to Motherland.

Speaker 2: 2:11

Motherland. Today we are talking about what do we mean when we say decolonizing our spiritual practice? Isabelle had said earlier, before we started recording, that we talk a lot and we use a lot of terms like decolonization and what does it mean to appropriate a culture or practice? What do we mean when we're trying to decolonize from that? We have had questions and people have asked what do we mean when we're using those terms? We thought we would take some time today to talk about what do we mean by decolonizing our practices. I'm looking forward to this.

Speaker 1: 3:03

Yeah, I got some great other questions that I didn't tell you. That I kind of was like Okay, we'll dive in. All right, let's start first with the term decolonization. First, I think we're going to use let's talk about assimilation and decolonization a little time twister, because these two concepts I think are often discussed when we are having the context of social or cultural and political discussions, especially relating to the BIPOC community. Let's start with the term decolonization. How would you break that down? I feel like you're going to do a good job, but I can piggyback on it.

Speaker 2: 3:45

Yeah, when I say decolonize, I am talking about a reference of colonization. I'm talking about what happened when European culture went to different parts of the world and killed a lot of those people and pushed their own views, religion and agenda into these different cultures that started to adopt a lot of aspects of European culture. To decolonize is to separate yourself from that aspect of European culture. It's a reclaiming and a re-remembering of who we were before European influence came in.

Speaker 1: 4:31

Well said. Basically, it's taking. What I was just basically going to say is undoing the effects of colonialism and challenging. I'm going to say challenging the system, but I actually feel like you are the system. It's allowing you to challenge yourself, challenging the structures and the ideologies that have kind of come into play.

Speaker 2: 4:57

Yes For me, and I think it gets really layered and complicated because I think, when a lot of people may think about decolonization, I have had to unpack in myself a lot of elements of racism, homophobia and sexism that I embody because of the culture that I'm in. I think there is an aspect for some black folks that they think they can't be resists or embody that because they're black. For me that wasn't true. There were elements of me that didn't like the fact that I was black when I was growing up. That's super cringey to say, but I was surrounded by whiteness.

Speaker 1: 5:40

I think that makes sense.

Speaker 2: 5:42

I was told again and again that my skin wasn't good enough and my hair wasn't good enough and I wasn't pretty enough. We've seen this happen not just. We'll talk about it in reference to spirituality, but I think that the doll test that happened in the 60s or the 70s was really popular, where they showed a white doll with blonde hair to little black girls, and then a white and then a black doll. Then they asked the children questions like which doll is the nicer doll? Which doll is the doll that's good? Again and again and again, the white doll was chosen for being good, smart, kind and pretty, and the black doll was seen as being bad and ugly. That's not an accident. That is the messages and the narratives that is sent through every aspect of our culture. To unpack that takes work and I think it's a lifelong journey.

Speaker 1: 6:42

You remind me of when I was a kid and it's like, the more I've studied this, you understand the caste system and the way that we were actually going way back in. If you guys have never looked at caste system, go look it up. As far as, like you actually seeing the pictures of, depending on where your skin color is and how dark you are, and your hierarchy, especially the Europeans coming into Mexico and taking over, as well as an Hispanic, my skin, especially as I was child I was so dark. They used to actually make fun of me because I was so dark. My family alone. They'd called me a Hershey bar and all sorts of names, and it hurt but what?

Speaker 2: 7:21

I was just really dark. Yeah, that's anti-blackness.

Speaker 1: 7:24

Yeah, it was because your darkness was degraded. I was degraded because I was dark and I say this, I was piggybacking on what you're saying. I lost my thought. But I lost my thought Basically. Yeah, I was just saying it. I was thinking of the caste system and the way that it's gone into works. As far as going back into time and looking at how you have to get, I don't know, I kind of lost my thought, but finding yourself.

Speaker 2: 7:54

I think a lot of this comes back to anti-blackness, and you'll hear a lot of people push back against this idea that so much of what we're talking about in the issues that we have in our society are rooted in anti-blackness. Here a lot of people say that race is a construct and all this stuff and it is to a degree. It's been weaponized. Whiteness has been weaponized. When I say whiteness, I mean whiteness as a construct. I'm not talking about individual white people. I'm just clearing that up as we have this conversation. Don't at me. I think when whiteness is weaponized, it hurts white people and it hurts black and indigenous and other folks of color. I think it tries to make whiteness as an individualistic sort of thing. White people don't have to belong to a group of white people, but brown people belong to brown people and black people belong to black people.

Speaker 2: 8:52

So there's a sense that blackness is one thing, brownness is one thing, but whiteness is a bunch of varied things. We see that happen when there's a shooter and the shooter's white he was somebody who had mental illness but if it's a black person who does it, this is what black people do. There's those kinds of conversations. It can be very harmful. I think. When people talk about changing the system or reforming the system or saying that the system's broken, I completely disagree. I think the system is working as it's designed. If we're going to talk about sort of decolonizing, we need to think of a new way of being with one another and reimagining a different way.

Speaker 1: 9:36

Yeah, do you think that the process of reimagining in a different way takes, though you looking at kind of your reclaiming your own sense of your own traditions, your own maybe indigenous sovereignty. Do you think that is a process of reclaiming that?

Speaker 2: 9:57

or, like you said, yes, I think by liberation. I can't remember who said this it might have been Ness in Mandela or Stephen Bukow but freedom isn't given, it's taken. Nobody gives you freedom. But I think when we're talking about freedom, I seek freedom as being collective right and I see liberation as being individual. And so if I'm going to liberate myself, I have to take my liberation and I need to do work for it. And while it may be unfair a lot of the things that happen to me as a black individual it's still my responsibility to do what I need to do so I can walk around and feel liberated. And it's work, and by work, sometimes that means rest. It's doing my homework on various practices and where I come from and study and just in the community.

Speaker 1: 10:59

So Well, let that kind of I think is a good way of process going into the term assimilation. You know, we talked right now we just broke down a little bit, of decolonization, even though we can go so much more deeper, I think, even with that, which I think we will in a little bit. But assimilating or assimilation, what do you want to say with that part of it? What is that? What do you think that is to decolonization?

Speaker 2: 11:24

I think people saw it and we were told that assimilation as kids was like being in America. That's a big old melting pot.

Speaker 1: 11:32

Oh my gosh, I forgot about Do you remember that whole melting pot. You used to learn that in social studies. I can actually smell the social studies. I don't know what that used to say that and actually remember reading that in the paragraph.

Speaker 2: 11:46

I think how assimilation was taught and what it really is are two different things. I think it's taught as this idea that everybody is appreciated for where they come from, but I think it's really trying to get yourself closer to the proximity. Of whiteness is what I think assimilation is and so. But I don't think it's pitched that way and it's taught that way in schools. I think it's taught really differently. But Toni Morrison says to be American is to be white, because everybody else has to hyphen it, and when I first heard that quote it like slapped me in the face because it is so absolutely true African American, mexican American, chinese American. But when you say American, the assumption is white.

Speaker 1: 12:30

That is so true. That's so true. Yeah, I think that you know. It's funny, because I think, if I was to break down the actual term of assimilating or assimilation right, it's literally adopting the cultural norms or values of, you know, society, like of what that is, but what is that? Like dominant culture? See, they won't say that, but it's dominant, yes.

Speaker 2: 12:54

Dominant society, yes, yeah, it's shedding the things about you that make up who you are, so you can get closer to whatever that dominant culture is, so you can be accepted.

Speaker 1: 13:09

Yeah, because you have to throw your own cultural identity out the door in order to adopt these values.

Speaker 2: 13:17

And then, on top of that, you know, when we talk about cultural identity, there's also this sense that everybody who is of a particular culture has the same view about everything, which I also find incredibly irritating Like to be black. There's a lot of different ways to be black in this world, right, there's not just one. There's a lot of ways to be black in the United States, and I think that is also something that we're having a conversation about. I saw on Instagram a few months ago a teacher a desi yoga teacher was talking about and using the term BIPOC, and I say BIPOC sometimes I think just when I'm being lazy, but I don't identify as a person of color. I identify as black Like. I think blackness is very different than you know being Asian or being Indian.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Because I think there's an element of anti-blackness that has woven so much into our society that to be black in this country is very different than other things, and so I call myself black. I don't even say African American, you know, black is the descriptor that I prefer for myself and some people. And there was a I mentioned the thing about Instagram because there was a yoga teacher on there who said you know, I don't even use the term BIPOC, like I don't use the term BIPOC to refer to myself. I'm black, I call myself black, black, black, black, black. That is who I am, and I think being able to claim how you identify is important.

Speaker 2: 14:51

And I'm going to talk out of the other side of my mouth, I think in order to transcend you know, for talking about spirituality, in order to transcend and get to that place where you're appreciating your essence, there is a time that you have to let those walls sort of dissolve and then you are just talking about yourself as a soul. But you can't do that until you acknowledge a lot of the trauma that you have to go through to get to that place, and that's where spiritual bypassing I think came in for me from a lot of white teachers when I would talk about this idea of having to acknowledge a lot of the harm that came because of my identities to get to the soul and being told outright that by me talking about that I was not spiritual, I was getting hung up on politics and that I was doing it wrong.

Speaker 1: 15:42

Yeah, I get what you're saying because I think on my side of it you know it's hard, it's interesting. I'm listening to you, you're like. You're like I identify black. That's what you said. You know, I think we use the term BIPOC in our podcast because it kind of covers all areas. Right, it's really hard, especially if you have done a lot of studying into.

Speaker 1: 16:06

You know, like, I've studied ethnic studies. I've studied, you know, chicano studies. You know, right now I'm in religion and culture. I'm just, I love the breakdown of it. I find myself going what the hell am I Like? Who am I and what am I? Because when you really understand that a Mexican isn't really Mexican, like that's not really a thing. So it's like well then, what am I Like? It's a. You know how is that.

Speaker 1: 16:34

So I'm just listening to you and I'm like, yeah, I really always struggle with like, how do I identify my like?

Speaker 1: 16:38

What term to use?

Speaker 1: 16:39

You know, sometimes I use Latina, sometimes I use Hispanic, sometimes I use Mexican, because it's like I don't quite know where I fit, other than understanding like, yeah, I'm a Dingeness, you know, but it's like because of the assimilation process that has been so confusing for so many people now, especially in my own, you know race and trying to figure it out.

Speaker 1: 17:03

But in that, even the sense in my own spirituality, bringing back to it, it's like we were so brought in and assimilated. We go all the way back, right to the Aztecs and to the Mayans for me, and going back in those times, that what we believed in and what we taught was so wrong and it was wrong right To the fact that now, even when people have to, if you're growing in your spiritual practice and it's going to come to a point that you're going to have to face, quote the fears of your ancestors that were told what they were doing was wrong, what their practices were was wrong, right, what their traditions were was wrong, and then you know, coming to that part of like breaking that down and understanding, you know why people thought it was wrong and how it was, but thought, power.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Yeah, and that goes. So my grandfather I had mentioned was a communist and an atheist, and my paternal grandfather because he saw Christianity as being a tool of slavery and completely rejected it and he was not going to be controlled and that was like a very big thing that he taught his kids.

Speaker 1: 18:12

I understand that it was, though. Oh yeah, look at the holism, look at the traditions that we have to learn about it was a tool of oppression.

Speaker 2: 18:23

And so, and I think, sort of as I've gone on this journey, that I've always been on this journey, I've always been this person who's been curious about who I am in the world and my place in it and my connection to this larger thing, and it felt like something I couldn't necessarily talk about out loud because it that aspect of questioning who I am on the planet, and then the universe was construed as being religion, which was construed as then being, like you know, an uncle Tom, or being sucked into whiteness or, you know, sleep mentality and all that kind of stuff which I don't see it like that. And so it was a long time before I felt comfortable even even talking about these things out loud. And I still get, you know, that flash of like tightness in my stomach, like, oh God, my mother's going to be rolling her eyes or whatever.

Speaker 1: 19:21

And this conversation.

Speaker 2: 19:23

Yeah, because I think there's still this, this idea that spirituality is connected to organized religion. So it's not a conversation.

Speaker 1: 19:33

Yes, the other day, Tuesday, while I was in my religion and culture class, they were actually talking about how spirituality is like the number one thing coming up right now. You know it's not about the religion or fit in, it's actually the fast. They forget how they named it. They were like it's not a religion but it's very fast growing and it's the fastest growing thing right now.

Speaker 2: 19:55

It's. I think it's really powerful. I think I am. I am more whole in my body than I have ever been. I think, because I have embraced this idea that I'm more than this, this thing that I sort of walk around with.

Speaker 2: 20:14

I was listening to Wayne Dyer as I was walking my dog this morning and he was talking about you know how we shed ourselves every seven years, you know, for essentially a new body, which is kind of fascinating if you think about it. Right, if you shed all of your, I don't have any of the cells that I did as a kid. So how to how, who am I? Yeah, like I got myself in a knot thinking about it. I was like, wait, wait, like it gives you this really incredible understanding, that of consciousness. Right, if your cells are always changing and we're in this form and we're, you know, it's like this idea that our body is constantly just moving and changing. So what makes us consistent inside, I mean, is it our soul, in our, in our consciousness? And I think it's a really important conversation that we're able to have now. But being able to have that conversation away from the glare of whiteness, I think, is really important, and it can get messy and you know, and not everybody has to agree, and I think that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 21:31

I know? Did you listen to the um side note? Did you listen to the podcast that we did with Aaron? Did you ever re-listen to it?

Speaker 2: 21:39

No, not, since we recorded it.

Speaker 1: 21:41

I think I sent you the link. Uh, I'll try to. Yeah, I'm saying that to you guys because we just did a pot. We recorded a podcast um, me and Onika together on another podcast platform and it was spirituality through the eyes of BIPOC or something like that. Um, and it brought in some of these topics that even we're talking about today a little bit Um, but I find I find it where. Again, you guys, I'm going to play back into what Onika says Like we're just having a conversation right now. I, you know I don't want you to think like I'm not racist Sounds weird to say that but I'm saying that in the sense that you made a comment right now on out of what did you say? Out of having this conversation, out of the glare of whiteness, and I wanted to be like are we ever out of?

Speaker 2: 22:25

the glare of whiteness. Um, I think you know what I do. I think right now, we we are because we can acknowledge that is, you know it's, it's around but it doesn't. It's. It's informing our conversation because of our experiences, but we aren't speaking to that group of people. Like you might have to do some catch up homework to to understand some things that Isabelle and I are talking about, that you might not have to, um, if you are black and brown, because there are some things that are understood about our experiences. So I think that's what I mean, um, and I keep using Toni Morrison as an example, but I think Toni Morrison freaking lover user Um so you know all of her books.

Speaker 2: 23:12

She, she spoke about the black experience and she spoke about racism and a lot of the pain and trauma of slavery, but she, um, doesn't ever really reference white people at all in any of her books.

Speaker 2: 23:26

And that is very powerful because she's speaking to a specific audience and that doesn't mean that everybody else isn't welcome to read. But she's reading, but she's like this is who I'm talking to. So I think you and I are talking to our communities and everybody else is welcome to listen. Um, but there's no contorting who we are to try and make this conversation acceptable, and so it could be sort of assimilated, and there there will be plenty of people who might even be listening, who pushed back and say, well, what about this and what about that? And I am not here to address any of that. I'm speaking through my experience in my body as a black queer woman who teaches yoga and mindfulness and joy practices and that, and that is my lens by the way, toni Morrison for me as a child, and Toni Morrison, and, and I can name a couple of other authors.

Speaker 1: 24:29

We and I have had this conversation with other people. Um, in the sense that, as you know, as an Hispanic, there wasn't very many Hispanics that speak out on um, what it's like for us. You know what it's like being brown or what it's like feeling. You know having that segregation or different things Like we just don't. Because in my, in my upbringing, it was about always assimilating and not fitting it Like.

Speaker 1: 24:56

Assimilating is what I mean. We were taught to assimilate and if you don't assimilate, then we were obviously in the wrong. Right, like we were in the wrong if we don't assimilate, even by, like you brought up your mother right? So, like my grandfather and things like that, like I'm I'm probably the one that speaks out the most and I think, towards the end of it, my grandfather was always very prideful of you know what he calls his La Rasa, you know his family, but um, in his culture, but at the same time, make sure you assimilate, right.

Speaker 1: 25:24

So I say that, as there was no books for us, there was nobody that was writing to say hear what it's the, the fight, here's what it's like to you know to decolonize. Here's what it's like to be proud of who you are. Like we didn't have that. There wasn't authors back then. Now there is now, absolutely there is. But as a child I related to Tony Morris and I related to these black authors that were speaking of things that yeah, you know, speaking of things from their own experiences or their ancestors experiences, because it was the close, most closely related thing for me. We didn't have any of that. Like I didn't have that as a child.

Speaker 2: 26:11

I didn't embrace a lot of this, though, until I was in college. So much of me just wanted to fly under the radar and to fit in, because I felt like I was always sticking out, less in the police school, but definitely in elementary school. Yeah, interesting it was really.

Speaker 1: 26:31

It was really, it was really uncomfortable, it was I agree, I felt I fit in in elementary school because in elementary school I grew up in South San Diego, you know, is predominantly Mexican, Mexican, black, like it was. Just that was. That was our predominant. And then later on I moved into an all white neighborhood and that was the rest of my junior, high and high school. So I always felt out of place. I've always sought to try to find. I always lived in that uncomfortability of like, who am I? Who am I? What does this look like? You know, I, like I've said before, right, I'm not, I'm not white, so I didn't fit in white, but I'm not Mexican enough for the Mexicans and some of them, you know, is this like, where am I and what? What does that look like? So I think I, especially in high school, I think I started seeking more of that of just wanting to know like things. But that's, that's. All I had was the books.

Speaker 2: 27:29

And I always felt on the outside too. And it's funny because I think if people I went to high school with would hear me saying this, they'd be like you you had friends, you were popular like what do you do?

Speaker 1: 27:42

I made it too.

Speaker 2: 27:43

I don't. I don't mean that I didn't have friends right, but I never felt like I fit in, even though I was invited to party, all that kind of stuff. It's not like I was a social, I was not a social outcast in any way, shape or form, and I still felt terribly uncomfortable. I did and didn't feel. I don't think I started to feel comfortable until I went to college and took the majority of my classes were Africana studies classes and English, and so I met kids who were like me and who were, and if they weren't like me they embraced me.

Speaker 2: 28:25

Like the music that I listened to wasn't so bananas and even though I sounded that a way that I did so did so many other of the black kids. I finally, like I finally met kind of my people when I went to school and it was, it was kind of refreshing. And then I still didn't quite feel like I fit in because then I was sort of navigating my sexual identity and orientation. So I've always kind of felt like you know, I've always been a little bit on the edges of everything and I think that's probably what led me to teach, you know, for so long at a place like Rikers Island, where people are sort of cast out, because I think I always felt a little bit cast out, even if it was by my own doing sometimes.

Speaker 1: 29:09

That's probably why we both do what we do.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Because I have a family completely Like.

Speaker 1: 29:13

I've always thought I don't think I really understood, even though I think I've always sought to figure out who I was or how I fit.

Speaker 1: 29:20

Because you know, even though I say those things about my family on the other side, here in San Diego or in California, my family has done a lot for the community and there's like we're literally in history books for what we've done for the community and so I've always like, well, you say this and we're proud of this, but yet we assimilate in this way, like my mind has always worked this way, but it probably wasn't until later on, I think probably maybe in my I don't know maybe my 30s. I think I really kind of started connecting the dots as I watched my kids, because I wanted my kids to be really proud of being Hispanic, I wanted them to really come back to their roots, and so I think somewhere through my children I kind of started to do the decolonization process and kind of looking at those things, like I feel that now and now I have a sense of a big community, like why I'm like, okay, these are my people and this is why I fit in, but I definitely didn't feel that growing up at all.

Speaker 2: 30:21

Yeah, and you know I think it's interesting because I'm 52. And in the late 80s, that's when Cosby Show became sort of like a standard of you know, of a new standard of blackness. And for all of the people who said that the Cosby Show wasn't realistic, I watched it and I finally saw myself on TV. I was like, oh, that's my fan, that's my fan. Like, no, that's me, like I'm Vanessa, I wanted to be Denise, but I'm Vanessa, like I'm that person, my parents are like that, my parents have friends like that, like it was really very affirming, like holy shit, I feel seen. And it wasn't until that point that I and then a different world came out and I was like, oh my God, I, you know, it was just so refreshing to sort of see my experience reflected.

Speaker 2: 31:22

And then, as elements of black culture became part of mainstream culture. I think there was this sense that you know society was trying to become like post-racial, that there was going to be, you know, everybody was going to be okay with all different kinds of cultures. But I saw whiteness sort of adopt elements of everybody's culture, but without appreciating the trauma. Right, what would Amanda Steele say? They want our rhythm but don't want our blues, and I think it's so true. It's so true Like and I don't just even mean black culture, I mean people taking Indian names when they become yoga teachers.

Speaker 1: 32:11

Oh, everybody's a shaman.

Speaker 2: 32:13

Yes, yes, all that kind of stuff, like then, as aspects of our culture, became acceptable. It was like wearing us as costumes, which I started to get really infuriated with. And then I even had to check myself when I started to study yoga. Like wait a minute, what am I doing? Like I don't say Namaste anymore Because it's not my, it's not my culture. I've studied yoga and I appreciate it, and there's some really great teachers who talk about. If you're going to say Namaste, how are you staying in and why are you saying it? But I had to even really notice. Am I appropriating elements of language, as I've been on my own journey too?

Speaker 1: 32:55

That's so true. Like I'm just listening to you and I was like, yeah, it wasn't. It was like we're going to have this, but now it's just been a blending of we're going to take this, and then we're going to take this, and then we're going to take this, and I think that brings us always back to what we talk about. Then we're now once again seen as okay, this is the right way of doing it, but the way that you do it is the wrong way. So you know, just to FYI, and it's like no, that's not, that's not at all. You know, let's just not how it works.

Speaker 1: 33:23

And so we're right back to again. It's like we're always in this, like perpetual cycle of like, okay, let me reclaim it back, let me reclaim it back, let me reclaim it back. And it's like. It's like you guys, I'll be honest, it's like you have to stop taking what isn't yours to take. And if you wish to understand it that's a completely different story, absolutely Then understand it, learn it, acknowledge it, grow in it, like whatever, however you want to be it, but you can't take it as yours in that way.

Speaker 2: 33:54

And quote it. You know what I mean. Yeah, there are so many teachers out there who just quote things from like the Buddha or other people Like those aren't your words. It doesn't take anything away from you to properly give acknowledgement of who you studied and where you studied, and in fact I think it shows the depth of your experience that you can tie together different people that you've studied from to sort of make a larger point.

Speaker 2: 34:31

It shows how diverse you are in your learning, rather than just trying to hoard everything and say that you came up with all of this stuff and sort of think that you're now the expert, you're now the guru. Because that's whiteness? Because if we're talking about indigenous practices, it is centered around this idea of community and collective consciousness, and I think that that is really important.

Speaker 1: 34:59

It's so interesting. Okay, I'm going to say I'm going to pose a question right now, but it's like. It's like because of the way things have been so misconstrued with language in itself, I find myself either hesitant to use language that I feel I'm allowed to use because it's like it's overly used or it's been used the wrong way so many times. I hold myself back often from like speaking certain things because I'm just like no, like I don't want to trendset with that, or I don't want to jump into that.

Speaker 1: 35:24

You know, one of the things I was going to say, just piggybacking on this, is how language is often intertwined with spirituality and culture, right? So just a question, because I had a few how has this impression of indigenous languages Okay, it's going to be a deep question, guys that are listening how has this impression of indigenous languages during colonialization affected your spiritual knowledge and beliefs? So, just exactly what I'm saying, right? Like, like I hold back what I want to say in my knowledge, or what I know, and even in my upbringing, because of the way things have been assimilated, I don't teach in certain ways and it affects what I sometimes teach on or how I show up.

Speaker 2: 36:14

Yeah. So I think I'm thinking of a couple of things. One, six or seven months ago, I was on a panel for a virtual conference and the panel was a shit show. It was terrible. The moderator was awful, she's all caught up in her nonsense and she's asking really racist questions. It was terrible and it was awful.

Speaker 2: 36:41

And I was on a panel with this one guy of South Asian descent and he started going off about people appropriating culture and language. That was not there. There you go, and I heard what he was saying and I pushed back a little bit, I think to the surprise of a couple of people who are on the panel, because I was like, yes, and as somebody who is of African descent, who just recently found out where she is from, I do appreciate what you're saying. Let's make sure that we know who we're talking to, because I don't know who to study, because I didn't know who I was because I was taken from where I'm from. So, yes, sir, I understand what you're saying, but let's also acknowledge that there's a whole bunch of us who don't know where we're from, going back three generations, because there are no records. And so it's like this dance, right, like it's a very difficult and challenging dance, and this is where I believe and this is where I think the spirituality comes in, where I start to know and recognize and feel parts of my culture.

Speaker 2: 38:01

When I hear things like a drum, for example, I just had this conversation with my mother. She hates drums. When I hear drums, I know for a fact that I am African. I just know it and I can't explain it, but I know it. I hear drums and I am being spoken to and it is something very powerful that I can't put into words. It is just a feeling. You're saying that completely. Yeah, so I don't know if I completely answered the question, but I think that is how I've learned to navigate it and being able to know my DNA so I can research Personally Nigerian and Cameroonian. I've started to do some research there, but I can walk there and be because it's so far removed from who I am.

Speaker 1: 38:50

So one of the things that often comes up with me and my clients is people asking how do I get to know my ancestors or who I am, when I have no idea what that is? What would you say?

Speaker 2: 39:01

I would say to study as much as you can to find out. But I think for black Americans there is an element of our spirituality that is in our culture and that's where I think there's this connection between blackness being a culture and also a spirituality, because of the very unique experience that we have in this country, that there are elements of our culture that is spiritual. I also think if you ask to be connected with it and you do that study, you can't figure it out.

Speaker 1: 39:43

No, I don't think that sounds like. I think that makes sense. I think one of the biggest things for me it's interesting just a little bit. Mine is that my okay.

Speaker 1: 39:51

So what's really interesting in this? Just a full, quick picture my stepmother, who's white growing up, worked with the indigenous community in trading. So growing up I had a lot of, yes, my own stuff, but then there was indigenous stuff that I had learned and practiced as a kid just because she was part of that community and worked in that community and later on, through my own work and my own meditations, my own guidance people, I always had indigenous guides and I'm just like I don't know this, but I know it's somewhere in our roots, I can feel it in my blood, even though no one's talking about it, and so much so that I even in sweat lodges when I've gotten invited to sit, they're like you are. There's so much more to like you're indigenous. We can see it the way you teach your beliefs, like what you say are things that you wouldn't even know if you weren't it wasn't in your blood of being indigenous and I'm like, well, it's not. No one's saying anything, right? So just last year before before I actually got my ancestral. I had did the DNA.

Speaker 1: 41:02

Before I got it back, my father came to find out that he was a hunt. He was like 100% or like 90 something percent yaki fool and basically the name of the selling of the land. When the yaki's were getting killed off, like they had some people change their names and basically our land was stolen, which I guess there's like my answer, like yeah, it's in history you can actually read about your great great grandfather. We're finding out more right now that the land was stolen because of he had to change his name and all the stuff to hide. And I'm like, oh, this all makes sense now, like everything was like I told you all that we were indigenous this whole time, when everybody's like what are you doing? And I'm like it's us. So I think you make a good point when you're like you'll know, I think you just know inside yourself like okay, this is you know, this is what it is or this is what I am.

Speaker 2: 41:59

Which is why also and this also goes back to what you and I are always talking about you have to know yourself. You have to know what's happening inside you so you can start to hear messages that are happening inside you and that are being told, so you're not ignoring them or just thinking it's some random coincidence, or you know, or you write it off to some weird experience, and that people are talking to you.

Speaker 1: 42:33

So I know that, like now, looking at spirituality and the way that it is and like we see, like you've even touched on it today, about how, like there's been so much has been picked up here and there and here and there, right, it's like a blend of cultures, of people teaching various topics that some just shouldn't be teaching.

Speaker 1: 42:50

Sorry, I'm going to say it, right, and I feel like I'm even listening to this conversation and I'm like it like brings this whole other element right, Decolonizing within yourself. Right, and understanding like I have to decolonize my family, I have to decolonize my roots, I have to decolonize what I went through through my childhood. I've decolonized all these things. Now I'm in the process of now I got to decolonize spirituality as well. Do you know what I mean? You're like now I got to break that stuff and so allowing yourself like this is just something to I guess I wasn't expecting to say this, but I'm going to say it like allowing yourself to decolonize your own spiritual practices, to really discover what that looks like in reconnecting you back to your cultural roots, you know, and resisting the impact of, you know, colonization, in a sense.

Speaker 2: 43:41

I love that. I think it's so important. And also, and also showing up as you are as a teacher and you've been doing your work. That also helps decolonize certain practices when you are teaching through your lens, right, that's also an important. I think that's really important that I show up who I am and I don't. I don't not talk about who I am and through the teachings, because that is, that's a part of my experience and I think that I think that matters and which is why I think it's so important that a lot of different teachers for a lot of different experiences choose to teach, so it's not just all told from this one lens.

Speaker 1: 44:33

Yeah, and I think that right now is becoming the beauty of it. But I think, unfortunately, especially going back into how long I've been practicing this or how long I've been in this, it's that, you know, I think I always thought go back and when we talk about spiritual bypassing, is the fact that so much during my spiritual involvement, right was assimilating, so much was it was assimilating into certain things of, like, the dominant cultures beliefs, the dominant cultures beliefs, the spirituality, the way spirituality was taught, you know. And so now, like, for me it's a breakdown, but educating is a big part of it. I feel like that's why, if I think it's really important as I'm gonna use the word BIPOC, but as a BIPOC teacher, as a leader, it's important that we are educated in our, you know, cultural studies, our ethnic studies, you know, like I said right now, taking religion and culture studies, like, so that we're able to break down and help people to, you know, see things in a different light and understand stuff.

Speaker 2: 45:33

Absolutely, because we certainly have our own, you know, phd in life experience. But we are also both academically trained. You know, like I am academically trained in Africana studies, women's studies and political science. Yeah, I also have my own lived experience of being in this body and living in this country.

Speaker 2: 45:51

So I think when we're both speaking about these things, we're speaking from life experience, but we're also speaking because we study this stuff and I think that's important and I think it matters, like I think it really matters. I don't think everybody agrees and I think you know people are entitled to that, you know. I think you know, even thinking politically, like black people who are conservative or Republicans and all that kind of stuff, you know, do I want to discount their experience? I mean, I agree with them, but you know we're not a modelist and I think that happens in spiritual practices too. Like, you know, people who are black and brown and indigenous, who have adopted European culture, religious culture and spiritual culture and double down on it and so what would you say, though, in the sense that so much of spirituality is rooted in indigenous beliefs?

Speaker 1: 46:45

and how do people respectively engage with and learn from these practices while without appropriating?

Speaker 2: 46:53

I don't know. I think that's a really good question, but I think we even acknowledge that elements of Christianity have been rooted and a lot of natural spirituality that they just pretend right and I'm I'm actually asking that I'm more telling because I do not know a lot about Christianity but isn't even like Easter come from, Like the way that we celebrate Easter is not the way that Easter right, there's a little.

Speaker 1: 47:20

I mean that's like. I mean that's not part of any Christianity. I mean Easter is about, you know, the rising of Christ. That's why we celebrate. It's supposed to be about Christ rising.

Speaker 2: 47:34

And all of that stuff does come from other. I think European pagan traditions right A lot of it does.

Speaker 1: 47:43

There's actually a really interesting there is I have to look up. I cannot remember the name right now. It's really interesting if you look at the story of Christ and and and view it. There's actually I cannot remember, I'm gonna have to look it up but there's a Greek story on a God that actually mimics the same story of Christ. That was written years before. Wow, the Bible was written. So it's this whole thing. I read this whole book. That just was like I kind of left it like what it's on my bookshelf right now. I can't remember the name, but it basically was like this is the Christ that we're talked about, but let's review actually where this story could have actually came from, because these are stories that were written years before the Christ story came, and so, yeah, so I guess I say that there's some elements of appropriation that are even recent in European culture that people don't even recognize.

Speaker 2: 48:48

I think it's my responsibility to move in a way where I'm trying to do the least amount of harm that I can. So I do my best to study and appreciate and what I learn. I don't do certain things like I mentioned. I don't really say not, must say anymore, and some ways that I learned yoga. I realize now a lot of that was appropriated and it wasn't a way that I should have been teaching yoga and I don't anymore and I acknowledged that I learned what I learned because that's how I learned it and then I had to sort of let that go. So I think as I get more appropriated and gain more knowledge, I give grace to that version of me who didn't know better and then adopt and sort of move forward.

Speaker 1: 49:34

I want to say something on that, because you were saying I learned what I learned. Look, here's for the listeners If you're guided and you want to learn yoga or meditation instructor or even Reiki or whatever, learn it, go ahead and be learned, but allow yourself to shape that to what it needs to be shaped for you and your culture and who you are, rather than just sticking to the lines of that you know, like you're doing for yoga and the same thing like, yes, I certify and I teach people in Reiki, but my Reiki is so different, it's a more in guiding people to their own cultural beliefs, like I. Have people that are like, how do I do Reiki and incorporate Olympias, you know, because that's a big thing for us, right, and I'm like, well, they're kind of one of the same. But if you want to incorporate a full blown traditional Olympia, by all means incorporate it with the Reiki.

Speaker 1: 50:22

Why not? Why not? Let your cultural practices breathe into it? Because that's the gift that you are given that I fully want to say nobody can take. Nobody can take that gift.

Speaker 1: 50:35

That is your beliefs, that is your traditions, that is part of your heritage and there's a reason, I think, that so many BIPOC, teachers, leaders, healers are rising, because I think that, no matter how much society, no matter how much they have tried to take it from us, it's still part of our blood, it's part of our DNA and it's going to find its way to come out.

Speaker 1: 50:59

And I think that's the beauty of like fine, we're going to learn and underquote what you're going to call it Right, but we're going to make it ours and we're going to show you how to make it ours, yours, you know, and to feel safe in that. And that's the other part, I think, with decolonization is that feeling safe and allowing yourself to feel safe in who you are, because we were taught that we and ourselves were not safe. We were taught we're not safe. You know it's not safe to believe what you believe in. It's not safe to look the way you look, like everything about you is a red flag. So now you're like how do I go about and speaking out and who am I when I've literally have been wired to not feel safe?

Speaker 2: 51:42

And to think that my exact, my entire being is wrong, right, yeah, and that that takes grieving. I think grieving is a yes, that's huge. That we don't talk. I think you and I do it sort of naturally, but it's an important part of the process that this isn't just always this just happy go lucky thing. There's an element where I was really angry and sad that I had to go back and do this work. Like what was that? I was mad, right, I was mad, yeah. And then like how much time you know and I put this in air quotes how much time have I wasted and you know, and feeling brokenhearted and allowing myself to go through that processing, breathe it, not just for me but for my ancestors before me yes.

Speaker 2: 52:37

All of those people who were, who had to hide, who weren't allowed to be who they were, who were killed. All of those things are also in me, and having to hold that and then from that also finding a place to celebrate and stand in joy and be really proud about that, it's definitely a strength in it yeah.

Speaker 1: 53:00

There's definitely a strength in it, but I think grieving is a very, very big thing and I think that's a good warning too, and I'm gonna be. I'm gonna say it's a warning that as you do this work, there's gonna be a lot of emotions that rise up. You know there's gonna be a lot that you may be really angry about. Depending on how deep you go. You're gonna find out things that you were like. This was not taught in my history books. You know, I think recently, what I was like reading about the lynchings of Mexico. How many Mexicans were lynched? Who the heck?

Speaker 2: 53:27

ever talks about us being lynched no one talks about it.

Speaker 1: 53:29

I know Like nobody, and I was just, and we were lynched for being successful. That's why we were lynched. Oh, you're having a successful business lynched. You know, even right now I'm talking about it, I'm getting emotional and it's like you guys have to like know, you have to allow yourself to grieve for your ancestors, and you're gonna find, hey, I'm really angry, but none of this was addressed. I'm really angry about this and there is a thing that I went through where I was like wait a second, am I racist now? Because I'm like mad at this, I'm frustrated at this, you know. Well, that's what I had to kind of look at.

Speaker 2: 54:09

Also racism and racism to be racist. There's an element of power that is a part of racism.

Speaker 1: 54:17

Yeah, you don't have. So yes, I understand that, but I'm just saying my own notions, Prejudice maybe but Right. Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2: 54:28

But I think no, I think you're right, isabel. There's an element of rage that has to be acknowledged, which so many of practices that are taught through a European lens.

Speaker 1: 54:40

No rage.

Speaker 2: 54:40

Try to watch over, try to push your rage down, tell you to swallow it. And you know why? Because they know that there's every reason that we should feel rage, that we should be angry, and we are easier to control when we're happy and smiling and saying that everything is okay.

Speaker 1: 54:58

And you know what Sad is they're still doing it this day, like look at all the bookbans. Have you seen all the bookbans? Oh yeah, like that's insane, like I'm just like we're right back at it again. Yeah, like, here we go again. You know, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:16

But just my, conversations like this are incredibly important for us to be able to have with each other. That's why I think some of these affinity spaces are really important, and it's not a way to segregate. It is a way for people to be able to come together and talk out of that glare that I was talking about, so we can just share and be in community and just be ourselves and let our shoulders drop and sigh and not have to catch people up. I'm not trying to catch you up on the barbecue because I don't have time. This is my time to talk to Isabel. I'm talking to Isabel and I'm not filling you in. You know you put raisins in your potato salad and there's nothing I can do about that. But this is our conversation that we're having right now. You're welcome to listen, like, listen, like not stop at you, but sometimes we just gotta be able to relax. Yeah, it's so, it's it's, it's vital. I think it's absolutely vital and there's nothing.

Speaker 2: 56:18

We're taught to think that there's something wrong about it. Right, like groups of black and brown people can't gather together because you know we're trying to like start a riot, so. So it's even seen as being sort of subversive for us just to gather and relax. There's this really great documentary called the Dharma Brothers and it is about a group of guys who were at Angola Prison who started meditating. They would get together, they'd talk about the Dharma and meditate. It was actually seen as being a threat because these guys and a lot of them were lifers were just sitting and being quiet because it was so against everything else that there must be. They must be up to something. What are they up to? Why are they?

Speaker 2: 57:05

just sitting and meditating. What are they really doing? And I think it those kinds of things shape the system, like us talking and celebrating who we are and crying about who we are and feeling joy and all of that kind of stuff. It breaks, it, chisels away at the system. The more that we step into our power, the more that we move from a place of love it all sort of chips away. There's this sense that we should always be. If we're always fighting, we're not paying attention on what's really going on. So the more that we can be in rooms together and talk and chill and understand each other we don't even have to like each other, but if we can understand and appreciate and love each other, we have this ability to be strong. We are the global majority in you. We make up Right. Yeah, we are the global majority.

Speaker 2: 58:02

It's us, yeah, and so I think it's important that we, that we sometimes get together and talk about and remember it, and that's why I think our podcast is really special.

Speaker 1: 58:14

It is. It is, I agree. All right, that was good. Any other notes you want to give to the people?

Speaker 2: 58:22

No, I am. I'm so glad that you had us have this conversation. I love this conversation, yeah me too.

Speaker 1: 58:30

I love this conversation.

Speaker 2: 58:31

I'm sure we'll have more. All right, yeah, I just want to come.

Speaker 1: 58:34

I think you guys are looking for any resources or you're looking to know more. I think you can either reach out to you know me or Onika, separately or together, whatever you guys want to do. And yeah, all right, onika has some great book references. I have some of my own book references, so if you're like where can I find more knowledge or read about this, give us a DM. Yeah, all right, we will talk to you guys later. Have a good one, bye.

Speaker 2: 59:35

You.