What if you could glimpse beyond the veil of mortality to find a deeper understanding of existence? What if you could shift your perspective on death, and in doing so, uncover a more profound appreciation for life? This episode takes you on a journey through time and perception as we explore the intricate dimensions of death.
We often perceive death as the end of the line, a destination that we all reach, but what if we thought of it as a cycle, a process of constant departure and return? We discuss the compelling concept of reincarnation, a continual cycle of endings and beginnings. As we delve deeper, we dissect the concept of 'dying of self', where the ego vanishes to make space for new experiences, leading to a transformative liberation. This isn't solely a dissection of death; it's a celebration of the life we lead, an exploration of how our cultural heritage shapes our perception of life and death.
This episode doesn't shy away from the stark realities of life. We touch upon the harsh experiences of racism, the impacts of which can be felt even in moments of joy. In the midst of all the pain, we find resilience, born out of collective and individual trauma, and the power it holds. We also discuss the magical power of surrender, of letting ourselves be present in moments of joy and grief. We conclude by reflecting on the ever-evolving journey of spiritual growth, the rebirth and changes it brings, and the importance of accepting these changes with an open heart. This episode is a deep dive into the cyclic nature of human existence and a celebration of the resilience of the human spirit.
Make sure to Subscribe and follow us at:
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/motherlandthepodcast/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@motherlandpodcast/
Email: podcastmotherland@gmail.com
What if you could glimpse beyond the veil of mortality to find a deeper understanding of existence? What if you could shift your perspective on death, and in doing so, uncover a more profound appreciation for life? This episode takes you on a journey through time and perception as we explore the intricate dimensions of death.
We often perceive death as the end of the line, a destination that we all reach, but what if we thought of it as a cycle, a process of constant departure and return? We discuss the compelling concept of reincarnation, a continual cycle of endings and beginnings. As we delve deeper, we dissect the concept of 'dying of self', where the ego vanishes to make space for new experiences, leading to a transformative liberation. This isn't solely a dissection of death; it's a celebration of the life we lead, an exploration of how our cultural heritage shapes our perception of life and death.
This episode doesn't shy away from the stark realities of life. We touch upon the harsh experiences of racism, the impacts of which can be felt even in moments of joy. In the midst of all the pain, we find resilience, born out of collective and individual trauma, and the power it holds. We also discuss the magical power of surrender, of letting ourselves be present in moments of joy and grief. We conclude by reflecting on the ever-evolving journey of spiritual growth, the rebirth and changes it brings, and the importance of accepting these changes with an open heart. This episode is a deep dive into the cyclic nature of human existence and a celebration of the resilience of the human spirit.
Make sure to Subscribe and follow us at:
Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/motherlandthepodcast/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@motherlandpodcast/
Email: podcastmotherland@gmail.com
All right, so we're talking about death today. Like what was your thought process when you were like Isabel, let's talk about death. Like what are you looking at in regards to death?
Speaker 2:I'm looking at all aspects of death. I think it started when I mentioned that movie Arrival.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I started watching it but I remembered I'd watched it before so I didn't finish it, but I did see a little bit of it.
Speaker 2:So the reason why I loved that movie was for a bunch of reasons. One lately I've just been obsessed with the concept of time and how it's not linear in this idea that everything is happening now, everything past, present, future and Arrival, this whole idea that these people, aliens from another place, come and land and I don't know if you remember. But she ends up talking to them because she's a linguist and they tell her, they give her this idea of the concept of time and she realizes that she is going to have a child who is going to die young, and she sees everything in a moment. And then she's confused for a second because she's recognizing is this happening now? Has it already happened?
Speaker 2:And she's able to stop something terrible from happening because the people, the terrestrial that she was talking to, give her some information. So she's able to stop something catastrophic from happening. And at the same time she recognizes that, wow, I am going to fall in love and have this incredible life and I have this chance right now to say no to it. So I don't go through this incredible pain. But she decides she's not going to go through it. So she does. I mean, she decides she is going to go through with it and she falls in love with the guy who she's been working with and we find out in the very beginning of the movie that she has already told him about her experience and he leaves her because of it, because he can't deal with the pain and yeah, the hug.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Motherland I thought you were cutting this whole part out. I didn't know we were going to use that part. I was just trying to fill you in my thought process.
Speaker 1:Let me just give you a spoiler alert. No, I want to hear the thought process. I wanted to know like OK, I want to know why. I don't care. Like this movie's been out for a while, I'm sure people's watched it 2016.
Speaker 2:2016.
Speaker 2:It's been out. The guy leaves her, yes, ok, he divorces her and she still stays with her daughter. Her daughter, very young, asks a question about her dad. I found out something and I told her dad and he didn't like what I said. And this is where we are now. So the daughter does end up dying, but we don't know. It's interesting because we know she's lost the daughter. So this concept of time, it's like we keep interacting. I can't even say we keep going forward and back, because it's not going forward and back. It's like you're in this sort of fluid movement of time and you are almost experiencing her life and what is happening as she's doing it.
Speaker 2:And I was fascinated by it. When I first saw it, I will admit I had an edible, so it's totally high and it blew me away, right. But then I was like, let me, was it just the weed or was it the movie? And so then I watched it and I wasn't high and it had even a bigger impact on me. And then I was just thinking about death in general. When we leave our bodies, what happens, thinking about it as a kid. Death is a beginning as an ending. So yeah, I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1:I don't know where this is going, but I'm intrigued by it. So, okay, interesting. I remember watching the movie before and I'm like I don't remember all of that Like I need. And even yesterday, I don't know why I couldn't get back in, not yesterday, it was like the other day, I couldn't get back into it. And I feel like that's how it was the first time I watched it, that I just couldn't get into it. But I remember her talking to the aliens and I remember all of the things. So I'm like I know I saw the movie. It's slow, it's very slow. Yeah, I'm wondering now if I was high when I watched the movie the first time. But like I remember seeing like the alien part of it and then when I watched it the other day, you know, seeing the daughter, and I was like, okay, I've seen this movie before, all right, so time and death, all right. I don't even know what to go with this right now. I'm a little bit kind of stuck.
Speaker 2:Well so, and some African spirituality, and I want to say it might be Zulu and I'm not sure on that, so don't at me if I'm wrong and correct me, listeners, but there's a concept of Sasha and Zemani, and I remember reading and learning about Zemani when I was in college for a literature class, and I can't remember what book I was reading. But Zemani is like this space between death and life, past and future, but it's not the present and it's like this, this sort of liminal space where we hang out. And then there's this idea of Sasha that is also about ancestors and the future and the past, and we sort of live in this space. And so it's like you think to yourself well, there is death because we become, we become ancestors. But then there's also this moment. So, like, how can we live in this moment fully knowing that we're going to be ancestors and that what we do both impacts where we're going and where we've been? But that's what we're at, right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't think we talk about it in terms of, like, leaving our bodies. I think it's all in relationship to being in the body that we are right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, I get what you're saying. It is in relationship to being in the body right now. But once we leave our bodies, I mean I can see what you're saying and I understand in different, in different really cultures and how they see and how they view death. You know everybody's different but I do think, like they're right in what you just said. Right now, I do think that once we, once we leave our body, we do hit avoid area. We hit that. I'm going to call it avoid area. I don't necessarily think there's nothing there, but that's the best way I can explain it. You know we hit that void area. That's where I always tell people I'm like, yeah, you go through your life review for a while and you're kind of just like there you're going through your life review and then making the decisions of how you want to go about as a soul to learn those lessons. This is pretty deep conversation right now.
Speaker 2:I know it's early for you.
Speaker 1:It's eight in the morning. It's eight in the morning here and I'm like I have to have this conversation.
Speaker 2:I mean this is just how my mind works. I'm actually down for it.
Speaker 1:I'm just like I think, because I'm in thought process with it right now. That's why I say like I'm just sitting here going like all right, like I just think it's really beautiful. I think death is given a bad name. I think that's death is given such a bad name. I think, like you say the word itself and it's like death right.
Speaker 1:I think the connotation of death is given a bad name. But I don't think it's it's. I don't think it's bad. I don't think that death is bad. I think we're taught to fear death, we're taught to be scared. But you made a good point when you were texting me about all the different levels of death, because you were like I want to talk about death in all different types and I was like explain, like I was like I don't understand, and you're like death is rebirth, death is a beginning. Well, same thing beginning or death as an ending. I was thinking death of self.
Speaker 2:Death as rebirth and death as a beginning are actually different, because death as as a like, as rebirth, can be sort of like the person that you are born into, somebody new, and death could be also a new beginning because you're shedding something of yourself and starting like a new path.
Speaker 2:It doesn't even have to be about you specifically like the death of like you know, a project that you were working on and you know sort of like letting that go, sort of like a closing. But I think we I think we are definitely at least here in the States are taught to fear death, that it's something that's scary, it's something that we try to avoid. I think, if you look at all of the anti-aging conversations that happen and that everybody is terrified of getting older and people don't want to admit how old they are or they're so happy that they are a certain age and but don't look that age. I have fallen into that trap and you know, what are we? What are we really afraid of? And if we can incorporate this idea that we leave our bodies into our conversations, I think the lives that we live while we're in our bodies can be so much more beautiful.
Speaker 1:I think that freaks people out. Oh, totally, I mean, I understand what you're saying and I definitely agree, but I think it freaks people out. Like I always tell people, I'm like you don't have anything, there's nothing to fear in death, like there's nothing, there's nothing to be scared of in regards to death. I can say that 10 times over, but the thought that I can be separate of this physical body scares people.
Speaker 1:You know, so, even though you're like, if we can all wrap ourselves in that concept, then you know the world would be a better place, but it's like I think it would really scare people and I actually question would the world be a better place Because people would?
Speaker 2:not be like I would say it would be a better place. I actually what I said was that we would have a better experience in our lives.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I misinterpret that as saying like a better place.
Speaker 2:No, and by, and I don't even think better, I think more full is what? Yeah, what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm actually wondering myself, like I'm sitting here going, like, how do I view death? Like I think like this conversation is intriguing because I don't think I've ever sat back and really thought about how I view it. Like I've never sat back and thought like, oh, what's your viewpoint of it? I mean even in the sense that reading people and seeing spirit and talking you know to spirit, that I say the other side guys, again, don't come at me. I know there's not really another side and here it's part of this whole realm, but that's the best way I can explain it right now. But even talking, you know, to spirit, it's like I don't think I ever really sat back and watched and really thought about it.
Speaker 1:I remember watching my grandfather die and being intrigued of the in and outs of him, you know, leaving his body and being present in his body. And leaving his body I mean present in his body, before he was finally ready to like make that change, whatever it is. And but I guess I've never really like thought of it. I know like death as, like you know, something dies and then something grows. You know, like I know, in that sense of like, when there's different things that happen in our life that you know are what people would deem bad, or is the ending.
Speaker 1:I don't believe in endings, I believe in new beginnings. I don't think that anything is ever like oh, that's the ending. I think every ending leads to like a new beginning and I think in some way it's the same if we talk about reincarnation. Right, like you die, but you are going to have it. You have an opportunity to have a new beginning. You know, I don't necessarily think it's a do over. You know I get to start over. It's like no, it's not a do over, but I think we have like an opportunity to be like okay, I get to. You know, I know we have an opportunity where we come back and bring those still lessons that we learned. Yeah, but I wonder, if you knew what your life was going to be like, would you still choose your life? How many people would actually say yes, I think it would, I would. I think about that like all the time. I'm like look it, if I knew that I was. That was the point of arrival.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the point of the movie. Would you still choose it?
Speaker 1:if you knew, yeah, I think I would I would choose it and that's the whole point, right. Like we have this thing when we're in a soul without a body and we have what we talked about before. Like you have your contract, you make your contract, you kind of get an idea of what your lessons are going to be learned, and then you come down here and you forget all the things that you signed up for, all the lessons and experiences that were going to happen in your life and you go through it. I look back at that all the time and I'm like I would never change my past. Did some of it suck? That's the apps of fucking Lutli, but I would never change it. I mean, I have four beautiful children for a reason and I don't think I would ever give that up. I mean, there's things I regret. I don't I regret the right word. There's things I wish I maybe did different. I don't think regrets are the right word, but it is what it is and I think if I knew I still wouldn't, I wouldn't change it. That's weird.
Speaker 1:I'm in a circumstance right now where I'm like I had this conversation with somebody the other day and I was saying I'm in a situation right now where I'm like I'm not reading the situation, I'm not reading it. I'm not asking, you know, if the person I'm talking to is is the person you know. I'm like, no, I'm not reading it. I was like I sat with spirit and spirits like no, it's the situation you need to be in right now, so let it be. Whatever that looks like is whatever it looks like, and I was like you know what that actually makes sense to me. I was like I have a piece about whatever it is, even if it's a week, two weeks, a month, a couple months, you know years from now like it's, like all right, let it be, let it flow. And yeah, I don't know what where that means, but I was just saying that in the sense that, again, sometimes it's better just to let it be. What's your thoughts? Do you look? You're making a face.
Speaker 2:No, I'm listening. I was listening to what you were saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the last thing I was telling a client yesterday. They had this question. They were asking us which is kind of interesting that we're talking about this. They were asking us to talk about death of self and I was like, are you serious? She's like, yeah, I think you and Onika should talk about death of self and I was like we're actually talking about death tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Oh see, as a kid I used to think about death a lot and I would think about it in this, the way that, like everything's over and I would be. I would get this sense of fear, you know, like when you're a kid, and then you realize like that death is a thing and everything was sort of over, and I got this like almost this crippling paralysis, like is everything just going to be black? And will I be conscious of the fact that it's black? I was like eight, having these thoughts and then I was thinking I would miss everything, right, I would miss everybody and I would miss everything. And it was all about sort of like me missing out, like literally fear of missing out because you're gone.
Speaker 2:And then, as I got older, I started thinking that we needed to, I needed to practice this idea of sort of letting go.
Speaker 2:And then I started, you know, thinking about is there something beyond?
Speaker 2:You know what happens in this realm?
Speaker 2:And started in thinking about it that way.
Speaker 2:And then when I started to really study yoga and the pose, even Shavasana at the end of a yoga class is corpse pose and it's practice for death, like you can practice it if you allow yourself to think about it that way, and it's not some, it's not a way that we approach it here, but one of my teachers, when I studied yoga for cancer and chronic illness, my teacher, yanni Chapman, who was also a death doula, talked about. You know, you can practice this idea of letting go and it's a powerful thing and it will allow you to be more present when you're in this body, when you're in Shavasana, like just let yourself be really heavy and like sinking into the earth and allow your breath to just be very minimal and like nobody could tell that you were breathing if they were looking at you and recognizing that you come from. You know the earth and you'll return to the earth, and what a gift that is that we come in these bodies as humans and we are able to be conscious of that.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah, I think you do. That's a cool way. I've never looked at it like that when you're in Shavasana of, like the, you know, practicing letting go.
Speaker 2:It's always about rest, just rest and let your practice be inside your body, and that's cool and all. But if you really want to appreciate what yoga is and if you're truly studying the roots of yoga, it is a way to be fully connected, right? Yoga means yoke, so we're yoking our body, our mind and spirit to the moment, but not just to the moment, but to everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I never really was scared of death. Is that weird? No Death, never scared.
Speaker 2:I'm not considering who you are now.
Speaker 1:I think there was a point that the only way, the only part I was scared of when it was death was, I think, at one point when I was really into the church as a child and it was like the fire in Brimstone, yeah, and I was like, huh, I couldn't imagine that must have been terrifying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was really, really terrifying. Like I was really scared that I was going to go to hell. And I remember, like I had an aunt, who I no longer speak with, who teaches, who preaches fire and Brimstone, to the point of like I mean, that's why we don't talk, you know. And I was really scared. I was going to go to hell and I remember like just always praying, like forgive me for my sins, forgive me for my sins, forgive me for my sins. Because I was just like, oh my gosh, like I did bad. I got to ask for forgiveness. Because they say, if you don't ask for forgiveness, right, Then you're not going to be in, you're not going to be allowed into heaven. But it was weird because that was.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's necessarily a reflection of death. Heaven and hell Like like when I now think of death, I don't think of heaven and hell Like a first thought. That's a whole different conversation. Like there's not a heaven and hell like that. But I don't think of it like that. Like you get what I'm saying and I didn't think of it like that. So I was never scared of it. But I got scared of it when I was taught heaven and hell. And then I was scared, and then I was like, oh, I don't want to die because I don't want to be tortured in hell forever, because of whatever choices I'm going to, I'm making in my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I probably didn't make acceptable choices, and I still don't, and I still don't.
Speaker 2:I think that we also think that death is the worst thing that can happen, and I just don't think that.
Speaker 1:I think that the death is far worse than death.
Speaker 1:Far worse. I think there's a piece, when you start to understand death, that it's actually quite beautiful. It's actually a really beautiful thing. I think it's a time where you've done for some, not for all, everybody's death is different but you did your time. You did your time, you served your purpose, you lived your lessons. I know this is again. I know some lives are cut short, so I don't want to say for all, but for some it can be like a really beautiful process.
Speaker 1:I remember I always say, because it's just the recent one when I really sat with my grandfather when he was dying and, like I said, I was watching him in and out, in and out, in and out. And then I remember, when watching his family that was on the other side, or spirits kind of start gathering, I could feel them right, I could see them. They're gathering, they're gathering. And I always thought my grandmas I say grandmas because he was married twice were going to be there and I was like that's who's going to take you to the other, that's who's going to ask where you is, like that's who I'm going to get to see. I'm going to get to feel like, oh my gosh, and it wasn't, it wasn't them. Okay, so funny story. I may have already told this story before, but I'm going to say it again.
Speaker 1:I was driving really quickly. I went home because I was like I'm going to go home, grab some things, and on the way back to his house, his father popped in, who I never met, and I was like I know you, but I don't know you. He was telling me all these great, amazing things about my grandfather and why he was, who he was and how he was raised, which was so intriguing, cause I was like all of this makes sense and I knew none of this right. So I got back to the house and I was telling my mom and my aunt what happened and they've never really seen me do a medium ship read, you know. And I fully was like that's what I have to tell you. And they were like that, they were validating, like yeah, that's true, that's true. And I was like, well, they're saying this and this and this and this.
Speaker 1:I said there's a woman here too that keeps calling him something I go, I can't hear, but he keeps saying it, though, it, though, it though. And I was like I don't know what she's saying, but like she's giving mom energy, but she's not his mom. Like she's giving like that's mom energy, but she's not his mom. I was really confused. I was like, but she's there with him. Anyways, I guess she called him punch it and it was who raised him his stepmother, that's. Who showed for him was his father and his stepmother and that too, was with him. And I say that because they stayed with him and that day he was very in and out that day.
Speaker 1:That day his first language was Spanish. Now, my grandfather banned me from speaking Spanish and us from speaking Spanish because of all the racial stuff that went on. But that day, all of a sudden, he's mama and just he starts calling out for her and in his dad, and he introduced us to them, with his eyes closed, in Spanish. And it was just we were standing there and I'm like, oh, my God, he's really doing this and he was just like talking to them in Spanish while telling them like this is my family, like blah, blah, blah, blah. And yeah, it was pretty cool to see. And I'm like, wow, he's literally in both worlds right now, like he's literally in the body, talking to us, but talking to them with his eyes closed.
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's pretty cool, but it was beautiful. Right, it wasn't scary, it was, it was. It was actually really beautiful, and I think that's what that's what we should look at it as it's funny that we've been taught to fear it. I think I forgot to say to that, because I think, if you look at the way that you know, we talk a lot about our cultures and the way we're brought up, I think that we're taught to fear the things that give us freedom. We're taught to the things that give us peace. Oh, I need you to say that again for the people in the back. We're taught to fear the things that give us freedom and we're taught to fear the things that give us peace. Yeah, and that's, that's not the way that it was. I mean, so many cultures celebrate death. You celebrate it.
Speaker 2:So big I just need to sit with that for a second. I guess I'll just sit with that for a second. We are taught to fear the things that give us freedom. I don't think I've ever heard it articulated like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't think I really hit it like that till I was like thinking about it. I was like, yeah, I guess that's what it is all the time, because when you think about my own work, I'm always giving you know, bringing people back in to peace, and it's okay to feel this way. It's permission to do this, it's permission to do that, it's permission to do that, and it's like everybody's, I don't know. We've been stripped so much of all the things that come natural to us, all the things that come natural to us. We've, we were taught to fear, you know, and now it's like okay, you know, we're taught to fear endings where and like we said, other ways are celebrated.
Speaker 1:You know, we're taught to fear. You know the fact that we have to die of self when in other, in other, you know, cultures are again it's celebrated. There's huge things that go on and ceremonial things that go on, you know, and here we are, these stupid ass Americans that are like one way, one way only, you know, with our blinders on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so as soon as I, as you were talking, I was thinking about that listener who had asked you to have us talk about death of self. Have you ever had a death of?
Speaker 1:self which one.
Speaker 2:That's what I was, so go ahead, talk about one.
Speaker 1:Which one. I think that I think I'm in a light kind of just go in and out for a bit. I think the thing is is that we die of self multiple times within our life. That's just the way it is. And even as I say that right now, you know, I'm like I'm saying that with trepidation, because I can actually hear Spirit telling me like and there's one more like I can feel Spirit telling me and there's one more right, I'm like oh fuck, you know she's on the floor. Oh my God, I love you so much, I love you so much, I love you. You know, really quickly to before I explain you guys, a death of self is basically is like how you identify and what you identify with, basically like freaking, just imagine it just falling and crumbling down to the floor Like that's it right, and like we all have, whether it's our gender identity or beliefs or morals, right, those are all part of who, you can even say your ego, right, and so, just to sum it up like that, I think the biggest one for me was my divorce was a death of self.
Speaker 1:That was a death of self, but that came, I think, before I asked. I asked for the divorce and I'm not afraid to say that because it was a sense of I'm not this person who I have to take it on because of my family beliefs. I'm not. I'm not this. I never was comfortable with being a stay at home wife. I never was comfortable with being this. You know, quote stay at home mom that could do whatever the hell she pleased, whenever she wanted. And that wasn't who I am. My purpose was bigger. I knew my purpose. I knew in my heart what I was meant to do, but in order to do that, I knew that the life I was living was not part of that life and I had. It had to fall away and I had to change what that looked like. But people don't realize that when I say things had to fall away, that meant that I, the daughter of my grandfather, but also his, the daughter I just realized. I said daughter, not granddaughter, because the daughter of him. I was the next in line and coming up as a matriarch and if you're Hispanic, you understand the roles that people play in the family. And that was me, right. I had the parties, I held the family together as far as the cousins and things like that.
Speaker 1:So when I died of self. It wasn't just a sense of me dying of self, but it was a family dying of self and everything changed. Everything changed in my family. Everything my family life changed. I changed. I had to just step out. I don't know what else to say other than dying of self can be very free. It can also be very lonely. There's something in it when you get to wake up fully being who you are, without pretending, and you realize how many masks you wear for everybody else. You know, you realize, oh, I put that mask on. I put that mask on, but yeah, I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I can answer questions on it, but other than that, like I just had to go through it, yeah, I just had to go through it and I think, like I say, there's so many different layers to it and we die of us all so many different times because we build an ego at such a young age. We build this ego up at such a young age and our ego is how we are taught to perceive the world around us and it's what we identify with, you know, and it's a fabrication of who we truly are, but we've created that in our mind. Okay, so like that's, you know, so that's kind of it. So when you die of self, you're creating that separation of the ego that you fully believed was you, and that's fucking scary as hell, because who the fuck are you then, if you aren't the accurate?
Speaker 1:Talk about it. Yes, you know, and the thing is, the thing is, whoop, all right spirit thing is, is the fact that we are taught, like I said, death, right, we're taught to fear death. So what are we naturally going to do? We're going to resist the dying of the ego. We're going to naturally resist it because we're taught to resist it. So that's the thing. But I will say there's a sense of and I say this with whoever's feeling this right now, if you're, if you're going through it right now, where you're like my life is just went from day to night or night to day and it's just drastically shifting. I know there's a lot of listeners that are. There is a sense of detachment and dissociation. That happens during this time, but I don't want you guys to panic, because people panic in that too.
Speaker 2:Right, I'm thinking of a few things.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking that I was going through, I was approaching a death of self actually, when I was interviewed on your podcast.
Speaker 2:I think that is why I also feel that connection with you and I think you tipped it when you were like, give me that date, because I knew it was there, like it was there but I didn't want to touch it because there were such a big part of my ego that was associated with what I did and I didn't know who I would be without that and I was clinging to that. But I also knew in the clinging that spiritually and psychically it was killing me. And we get comfortable, right, we get comfortable with pain and I would, I was part of me was would rather hold on to that idea of dying than to let go and what happens, right, and let the, the wind take me. And then, when I did, and that loneliness and that fear that I still, that still comes and goes that I was I, because I don't think it's completely over, I think I'm still sort of evolving into what's next before my next death.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I was thinking that. And then I was also thinking when I, when I worked in jail and you were talking, when you were talking about ego, how I can have a sense of who I am. And there were so many people that I worked with who were starting to know who they were and also had to keep on that mask for protection inside and recognition of the mask that they wore, and seeing them real take that mask off when they were with me in my office and how sacred I thought that was and how much I treasured that and appreciated what a big, what a big offering that was to bear witness to something like that, because it can be really scary to reveal your true self just to yourself, let alone to somebody else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it is. I think that's something that I struggle with. I did that the other day. I said it on my Instagram story and I was like I don't know how to put into words the gratitude that I feel to get to hold that space for people, that that they get to see themselves Like I don't I don't know how I still, right now, like I'm like I don't know how to. I know what you're trying to say, because I'm like don't know how to explain that. You know that I get to help you take that mask off and just be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what about you with your death of self? I know you were saying like you, you were going through it with, with, when you chose to leave Rikers, you chose to do the stuff. But like, how was that for you and what did you find?
Speaker 2:I. I felt really afraid and excited at the same time. Afraid because it felt similar to another death of self when I stopped holding on to hatred around white supremacy and started to lean more and to love Such a big part of my identity I'm trying to find the words. I'm saying that's okay. Such a part of my identity was holding on to racism and the impact that it had on me and my community, that I completely identified with that, which could make a lot of sense, right, like you know, fighting against that. And then I realized, as I really started to get into my practice, that holding on to that connection was actually only embodying white supremacy more and more. And if I truly wanted to be free, I needed to offer myself unconditional love and friendliness, and that would mean letting go of that hatred.
Speaker 2:And there was a moment of fear in that, because if I let go of fighting against racism, then who? Who am I really Like? What is blackness really for me? And that was that was enough to keep me up at night for months. Well, who am I? What does it mean to be this black woman If I'm not pushing back against the fact of what white people are saying I am and me saying like I'm not that, I'm not that. So I never asked myself what I am, I was just like I'm not that and that was a huge. It was a huge awakening and I think it ushered in a softness. So when I came to this death with Rikers, it wasn't as scary because I knew that softness was there and, even though I didn't know what was going to come out of it, I knew I would come out of it. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:I kind of feel like it was almost like two senses of dying of self at the same time, like you're going through two senses of dying, two senses of releasing. It wasn't just like, okay, there's Rikers, there was also the thought process of this other part of it too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that's a part of your ego, too, that you wrapped your identity in, like that's a part of you that you I was talking to yeah, I was talking to this another black meditation teacher who lives out of the country, and we've just been chatting about a meme that we saw about a black woman who was saying that now that she didn't realize the amount of tightness and holding on that she was doing living in the United States and all she was ever thinking about was this idea of blackness and relationship to herself and relationship to whiteness, and just always navigating that until she left and then she could just kind of be. And I remember and I'm getting a lumpy even now because I remember reading that and I was like I don't even know what that's like. I think I know what it's like in moments, but just to be like that all of the time, how fucking cool is that? Not to have to be in relationship to protection all of the time or thinking about it or thinking about how to transcend it, or thinking just being like, oh, this is what it is, just to be me, and how so many people in the United States don't get to do that.
Speaker 2:White, black, latina, latino, none of it, like nobody does. You know what I mean? Like nobody's free of it, and it's not just blackness. Nobody's free because of that relationship to supremacy that this country was built on. So we're also caught up in it, and so we were. Just, he was like you should leave Portugal's great, and I was like there was a moment of excitement and fear. Well, what would that be like? Just to be me, you know?
Speaker 1:that makes sense. I was thinking about that when you were talking right now and I'm like that makes sense, why, like you know, I just came back from Oaxaca and it was like it's a sense of just like why it feels like I couldn't put into words, like, yeah, that's Mexico and I'm Mexican, but like, oh, because everybody's me, everybody is just me, you know, yeah, you know interesting. And then there was something that happened as soon as I freaking hit that airport. As soon as I hit that airport, it was like welcome back to freaking America. I had this. My heart just hurt for you. I had this beautiful experience. I loved it.
Speaker 1:For those that don't know, you know, for those that when I was brought up, my grandfather did speak Spanish to me. I was fluent, and then I stopped speaking because it was a whole, like I said already, racist thing. I don't need to go through it. My Spanish level is now I'm not very confident here in America. I don't, I'm not confident. Give me a day in Mexico. It comes back. And my mom was like, oh, my God, like I was, like I'm confident. I'm like, okay, what do you need? I got you. I was like, oh, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:I had a beautiful time. It was amazing. I think I sent pictures. I, you know, I saw some land. I can't put into words what that was like. Even just thinking about it right now I'm being emotional, like just to be on the land that I had spent so much time learning about, and like the wisdom, so much wisdom, like freaking amazing how people, how we did in the past right, how we just created this land with, like, the stars and the alignment, and knowing how the trade system was going to work and all these things, like there's no maps, there's no calculations, other than they just knew how to lay it out. But point is beautiful time I get to the airport and this is the airport in Oaxaca to go to TJ.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're in there. I dropped a paper and this stupid ass sorry guys, I'm gonna say it's stupid ass white lady picked it up and she picks up the paper and she looks at me and she goes oh, did you drop this? And I said, oh, thank you so much. That's all I said. She goes, puts her hand on her heart and takes a deep breath and goes oh, thank goodness you speak English. And I turned around to are you there? I think you froze.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I turned around to the person I'm with and I took me like a brief second. It took me a second because I would have reacted, how I caught it and I just kind of like turned around and put it in because we were like moving, you know, when you're going through checkpoints, right, so we're moving, and then once we get to the checkpoint, I'm putting my stuff in the container and I look at my friend and I'm like did she just did she just say that? And my friend's like yes, bitch, yes, yes, she did. And I was like, fuck, like here we go, welcome, fucking back. Uh huh, like I'm just like, are you fucking serious? Like I'm just like welcome the fuck back. Like you just killed my whole, fucking whole lot. Yeah right, thank God I didn't catch it in the moment. There's a reason I probably went off.
Speaker 1:That was a gift. That was a gift for you, yeah. But yeah, my friend knew inside, looked at her like did she just my friend's like? Yes, bitch. I was like, oh, it's like what the?
Speaker 2:fuck. Well, anyway, the juggling, right, the juggling. Oh, there are things that are worse than death. There are things that are worse than death.
Speaker 1:I was talking to, um, we black or brown for a day, there are things that are worse than death. I was talking to a friend last night and she's laughing because I just did air quotes. I was talking to my friend last night and he was saying how he reminded me, like he, we're just talking about being with somebody of of that's not of color, like, just not of color. You know, I don't know, it was just I don't know what the point of this saying it, but I'm thinking about it as we're talking about these things right now.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I don't know what my point was, other than there was a point in what I had to say, but I lost track of it. I lost track of it, but I think it's the same, like it would be really hard when there's just certain things that you do and I think that's a part of bringing into the discussion of sense of dying of self. I think there's a part of you, um, as a person of color, whatever, that you do go through a sense of death, of dying of self.
Speaker 2:And it's.
Speaker 1:I think, in a way, there's a part of us that are forced to do it too, without without ask or looking to do it.
Speaker 2:I just felt that in my whole body when you said that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually want to cry right now because of that and now it needs to Like, all right, I like, I'm like I actually want to bring this topic up and I'm actually to the point right now, like I'm thinking about it. I'm like fuck you, like fuck you, but you would force me to do that and, yeah, you are forced to it and you think of, you know, we had Naya being on and and the sense of like you know, she talks about the children that are. You know, we're forced to die of self at such a young age and look at things in a way, um, that I guess things aren't, you know others aren't having to look at. Anyways, I don't know, I don't know if that's a you know, I don't know if that's a gift in a sense, because I think it gives us strength because, yeah, it's going to be other things in our life that we'll have to face and and and keep going and make other decisions.
Speaker 2:I always get really torn about in the camp where growth. I don't, I don't believe in that. I believe that, um, it would be better if we never had to have the trauma at all. Oh and by trauma, I mean like yeah no because you know how there's a lot of people are like well, it's a gift that this happened to you, because racism is not a gift. No, I want to prefer that it never happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. I'm not talking about you.
Speaker 2:I'm not talking about you I'm talking about, like other people who, um, who say that um, because you were talking about, like it's not fair, it's not fair and you're right, it's not fair. And there's so many people who I think are not black and brown, this idea of post-traumatic growth because they are in a position they impose, with historical trauma and systemic trauma, that the trauma that happens to them is so you know, few and far between and don't at me about single incidents of getting hurt, like I'm not here to talk about that. I'm talking about systemic and historical trauma to groups of communities over generations. That is so built into us that we know how to navigate it in ways that I don't think that we should have to, but we do because that's who we are, because we're adaptable and we're strong and we're resilient and we're capable and we're fucking magic, and it's still not okay that we have to do that. So, anyway, so pause.
Speaker 1:No, I think you're a hundred percent right, but we're magic.
Speaker 2:Like we're magical, we're magical and we'd still be magical if we didn't have to deal with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think that we were magical in the beginning. I mean, look what I just talked about. I talked about like all the shit and like we built and things that we did. That was like better than anything else out there. So, yeah, we are fucking magical, like you know. I mean that was the whole. That's the whole reason why we're trying to be shoved in a box, because we were too fucking magical. It was like let me shove you all in this, so that that's. That's really what happened. That's literally what happened, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that sucks.
Speaker 1:I don't know what's, that's what's up Because he's so many different.
Speaker 2:I'm glad, I'm really glad.
Speaker 1:I am, but it's like you actually made me think for a while. It's like, yeah, like there's so many different ways of death and you know, yeah, death is a beautiful thing, but, like, as I'm talking and I'm like, yeah, we were taught to die so many times over, you know, and, and some of it we didn't choose to, we didn't choose to be a part of this, Like we didn't choose to have that experience. It's just, it was what we were given. You know, I don't think it. I take back in the sense when I said like it makes it easier. I don't know if it does necessarily, but I think, for me and my reflections of experiences, I think, when I'm talking from my perspective, it gives me a sense of move the fuck out of my way. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:And so when I say that's the energy that I'm talking about where that's? That's the vibe that I don't. I don't have a problem with that, Like that don't, and it sucks that. My experience has caused me to be that way, you know, but that's that's the way it is for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you know. Anyways, back to that little minute things of dying himself, now that we talk about those things, you know that's still fucking scary when we have to do that too. It's still scary when we go through big life changes and the shit gets ripped out from underneath us and we're like I don't want to do this, you know, I just don't want to fucking do this.
Speaker 2:But I'm trying to think of what?
Speaker 1:but I took care of myself, I think the best way and I was talking to someone the other day the best way that you can do this is surrender, and I hate, in a way I sometimes hate using such cheesy words. I do Like there's a part I hate using cheesy words sometimes, but that's You're reclaiming it.
Speaker 2:You're reclaiming it because you're brown. So I understand what you mean by it. But when it's said in different kinds, like in sort of, you know spirit landia, it's meant differently. But I know what you mean by that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's the best way is just that's it. That's all you can do. I think you know for me, like I said earlier, the lesson for me is is stop trying to read it, stop trying to predict it, stop trying to control it, stop trying to ask the why of it, and just be in it, Just freaking be in it, and that's the best thing. And I find the more that we allow ourselves to be present in whatever moment we're in, whether it's the highs or whether it's the lows, and we're present in those moments, I think we get stronger and I think it goes.
Speaker 2:I don't even know what you heard, but yeah you cut off, like as soon as you started talking in here, any of it.
Speaker 1:I was saying that when we surrender, or the best thing that we can do is just be present in the moment, whether it's the high or whether it's the low. And the fact is is that when we allow ourselves to be present, there is a part of whatever when you're dying of self or you're going through it that instead of resisting the pain, instead of resisting the grief, instead of resisting all these things, and we accept it, we actually move through it faster. I know it's not about going through it with speed, but we do because we're just allowing ourselves to feel it. The only reason that things are so hard is because we're making them hard by resisting the emotions that come with it, and so that's the whole thing. It's like let yourself experience the emotions and part of it. Emotions change seasons. It's not meant, like we do, to have highs and lows and bad and good. It's just embrace it for what it is and then, as you embrace it, you kind of get to move through that and see, open up, have an awareness, create different things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, when my mom called me on the day that my dad died. She called, I picked up the phone and she said thank God you picked up the phone. You need to get home right now. And I was like why? And I knew I knew, by the way, that she would, I knew what it was and she wouldn't tell me.
Speaker 2:I kept taking me to my parents' house and I remember thinking this is what it feels like when you find out that your father's about when your father's gone. This is what it feels like, and I remember telling myself don't, don't run, because there were moments I wanted to just like disappear, like completely dissociate, and it's like don't run, because this is only going to happen once. So you want to remember every single part of it, no matter how much it's going to gut you, because you aren't merely at the place of being gutted because you haven't heard the word yet. So be present, because you're going to want to remember, like telling myself that. So I looked out of the window, I watched cars going by, I placed my hand on my car. I was touching my body to really be in it and completely collapsing because I told myself to be in it and not to disappear. Right.
Speaker 1:That's good, that's a great day to do anything and that's the way that you processed with it. I think that was just the right thing. I'm just sitting here thinking I was like I don't have. It's weird because if you knew me, if you knew Isabel 10 years ago Isabel 10 years ago, hated feelings, isabel freaking.
Speaker 1:Five years ago, hated feelings, I hated emotions, I hated crying, I hated grief. And it's funny because I remember my ex-husband. I would tell him, when my grandfather's dies, I don't know what I'm gonna ever do. This was back before he died. Right, I was like I think I may die, like I literally would feel that I was like I don't think, I don't know how I'm gonna survive. I remember telling him like when he dies, be ready for it, because I don't know how I'm gonna, I don't know how I'm gonna survive that. And I think for me, like I'm listening to you, it's like the same thing, though I was immersed in it, so I got to be by him with like two weeks, so I was very present in it.
Speaker 1:But by then, five years later, I had learned how to absorb it, be in that emotion and grief and just like be in whatever feelings were coming up in those moments which obviously helped me to deal with the circumstance of whatever occurred. But I think back to because I'm like, yeah, if I didn't know how to be in it, I think I still would have been str I, it would have been a darker, it would have been a darker situation for me. So, yeah, so I can hear spirit kind of saying like you know, when we, when you die, whether it's death of self, whether it's a rebirth, whether it's you leaving this physical body, it's a very I'm trying to understand what they're saying. It's a very like all senses thing. It's a very all emotions, all senses type of thing. There's not a separation of sadness, happiness, grief. It's almost like there's trying to say like there's this overwhelming all senses. That makes sense to me why they always talk to me about like emotions and teaching people how to be in the body, anyways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for those that ask cause I get this question a lot too. On a side note, people always are like oh, did my loved one suffer? Like we don't suffer. I need people to understand that, like we don't suffer when we leave this body, we don't, we don't suffer. There's not a suffering that happens when we leave Once the spirit makes peace with they're ready to go. There's not a suffering that ever, ever occurs. You know, once they did like okay, the physical pain is done, the physical pain is done. I don't know why people ask that Such a weird question. When you think about it, they suffer. What does that mean? Did they suffer? No, they did not, and now we do not.
Speaker 2:Anyways, yeah, I think that's more for the person right.
Speaker 1:A person asking Living with it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But like, why do people get the belief that they suffer and I don't mean in a selfish way, I don't mean I'm like a selfish woman. Yeah, I think it's for cause they? I think I wonder if it's somebody just trying to make sense of it.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know, like to me, like it was never, like I never thought, like I don't know, like I guess maybe they're trying to make sense of it. Did they suffer? Oh, I think maybe they're talking about the physical pain that the person's living right, like maybe they can't talk, or their chest hurts or those elements of it. But once we leave, that it's gone, it's like. Once we leave that, it's like okay, you know, I don't suffer going into the next stage of my life because I was physically in pain while leaving that body. No, it's like, once you leave the body, it's like no, I'm at peace, I'm good, yeah. And there's like this weird you have to remember too, they're going in and out of their body, so they're not sitting in that body with that pain the whole time as much as we see them right With our own eyes, right, right, yeah, any other things I don't know.
Speaker 2:No, I think that's good. I feel like we could talk about this forever. This is, I think, one of those things that it's a topic that I feel like needs to happen more and all different, I think, spiritual places that we're just we're so focused on and you say talking about dominant culture. I think we're so focused on, like the warm and fuzzy aspects of spirituality that we don't allow ourselves to feel the wholeness of it all and we cut ourselves off that, and I think that causes harm. And I'm glad that we were able to have this conversation, because this is what I think it's all about, like. I think this is we get calm so we can be reborn, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I mean that's a representation of every life that we have about us, whether it's nature right, whether it's however, it is Like that's always in representation. I mean that's the whole point. I think that's the whole point of us as the human experience. It's constant evolving, it's a constant rebirth, it's a constant dying of self. And it sounds kind of weird when I say it's a constant dying of self, but it really is Like. It is a constant like, okay, you know, there's my ego, or okay, there's this or whatever it is. You know, time for the next stage, time for this stage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm having some introspective looks at right now. I'm like, okay, I can see where I'm at right now, you know, I know I was like, oh, I'm gonna go through it again. I think, in a way, I'm going through it now, but it's just that it's not like a painful dying of self, it's just a sense of like I'm expanding up. So it's like okay, there's a lot of different changes coming right now. I can feel that I'm like, okay, but I'm just okay, what can I say? What can I do? Just stop fighting it. So, all right, you're under Great conversation, guys. Let us know if you have any questions? I guess that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, bye, yes.