Clemency, Freeing Others & Accountability with Fox & Rob Rich

Listen to this conversation with one of our De-Bug organizers, Yolanda Ledesma and our participatory defense family out in New Orleans, Fox and Rob Rich. In September 2018, Rob received clemency after serving 21 years of a 60 year life sentence. He was the only person in Louisiana to receive clemency that year out of over 2,200 applicants after relentless advocacy from his family and wife Fox the full 21 years of his incarceration. As soon as Rob was released, the couple started their participatory defense hub, Participatory Defense Movement NOLA, and have committed their lives to helping others fight against the system. 

Fox and Rob give light to the process of clemency in their home state of Louisiana, both how they fought through it in Rob’s release, as well as how they are challenging it now by holding their governor accountable and demanding release through other avenues. One of the first families PDM NOLA supported was for Ms. Gloria Dean Williams, “Mama Glo”, who at the time had been incarcerated for nearly 50 years. PDM NOLA supported with a powerful, calculated campaign that included marches outside the governor's mansion, a Juneteenth event, art exhibits and several meetings with the governor himself to fight for Mama Glo’s release. On Jan. 25, 2022, Mama Glo was released after serving 51 years.   

One of Fox and Rob’s goals for 2023 is to continue their accountability campaign and pushing for clemency to “massively reduce the prison in Louisiana.” We are proud to share this conversation from our PDM NOLA hub and shout out to Yolie for facilitating and for her own post conviction work in Santa Clara County and beyond! 

#TimeSaved #ParticipatoryDefense #ProtectYourPeople 

Link to book version of TIME

Link to documentary

More info on Participatory Defense

Time Saved YouTube Channel

Transcript

This is the time saved podcast. My name is Xavier Espanya. And I'm a participatory defense organizer with Silicon Valley debo. So participatory defense is a collective of community members, either individuals who are going through their own case or family members who have a loved one who's incarcerated inside, and they are the support system for the loved one. And it's all you know, people who are trying to have the best possible outcome for that case to impact the outcomes of cases and transform the landscape of power in the court system. So I'm here to introduce this really dope conversation with one of our debug organizers, Yolanda Ledesma, and our participatory defense family out in New Orleans, Fox and Rob rich. Specifically, you're about to hear Fox and Rob discuss clemency in their home state of Louisiana back in 2018. Rob received clemency after being incarcerated for over 20 years, he was the only person in Louisiana to receive clemency that year. Out of over 2000 applicants Rob achieved this do largely in part of his wife Fox pushing and advocating for him the whole time he was incarcerated. As soon as Rob was released, the couple started their participatory offense hub and began to help others go into the court system out there in New Orleans, you'll get to hear the amazing story of how Fox and Rob supported Gloria Dean Williams Mama Glow with her clemency in 2022 and how they helped her achieve freedom at the age of 76. After serving 51 years, we hope you enjoy

collectively we are foxing Rob rich, we work out of the New Orleans. New Orleans up PDM Nola. We are a formerly incarcerated couple we spent more than 21 years behind bars before receiving clemency. And 2018 probably one of our biggest takeaways that we that we took away from our prison experience was that to be free is to free others. With that being said, probably about six months after I came home, Fox and I started our own ministry and the first initiative of the Ministry. The ministry is rich Family Ministries. And our first initiative was PTM, New Orleans. We've done so with the we thought that it would be the easiest and best way, most effective way that we would be able to reach families that we had left behind, and families that we know that we're that we're not only meeting but also deserving of help and the same opportunity that our family had been blessed with after 21 years of incarceration. Probably to one of our greatest pieces is just that I know what when it comes to all participatory defense, we judge the success of our organization by the amount of time that we save, oppose the the amount of time that a person has been sanctioned to serve. To this date, we have saved over 3300 years of people doing time. And like I said, it is one of our biggest takeaways because inside of that, we were not only able to free, the country's longest serving mother, in the form of Gloria Dean Williams, she's affectionately known as Mama Glow. And additionally, we were able to bring home, our fall partner, my nephew, Ontario, Smith, through this same through the same work along with him. We were in the legislation that we was able to get over that resolution sold for not only gave him the opportunity, but it gave more than 3000 of the families the same opportunities that are at parole. And these were people that were basically had life sentences, practical life sentences, because many of whom had been sanctioned under the truth and sentencing laws were people are doing found guilty of crimes of violence would have to do 85% of their time. So many of those people, like I said, we're all we're basically issued practical life sentences, but now as a result of the resolution, and have been afforded the opportunity to reunite with their families.

Amen to all of that. I know you mentioned Mama Glow, and we definitely want to get into like her campaign that you all worked on. But before we get into that, because you all were doing work already when you came home, like you said, right. At what point did you hear about participatory defense? And how did this work enhance what you're already working on?

Well, I know when we first started out, we were all kind of just doing the next right thing. The thing that made sense to do next little did we know that that through trial and error. What we were working out of was actually a model that had already been created. I think Fox had come into contact with participatory defense, maybe a couple of years of better before And before I was relieved from prison, but I know that she left that experience, knowing that it was something that we had to incorporate, you know, in our own efforts to, to free other people. So no sooner then I came home, we were trained by the Silicon Valley, debug group of folks that, you know, basically gave us the tools that we needed, in order to add to add into our toolbox. The biggest piece of that is that when you take common everyday people, and you teach them legal awareness as a best form of defense, you are so amazed that, and how it is that people become empowered, because you have people that had been, you know, on the outskirts of the power vacuum, and you put those that are closer to, you know, closer to the pain, closer to the power, through giving them these tools that are that we were able to pick up through a participatory defense. And since we were trained in this model, we were able to not only be trained ourselves, but we were able to bring on other people that are local area, that can be trained as well. So it kind of helped us formulate and create an army of people to to be able to do this work. So much so that we started out as doing it here isolated in the city of New Orleans. But since being trained, we've been able to do this work all across our state. And in some cases, actually, thanks to the advent of zoom that was that, you know, was made popular during the pandemic, we've been able to go hybrid now as well. So we're even helping families that are well outside of our state, and then in various other states that we've been able to help. So this is probably the dopest thing that that I've witnessed, you know, in my whole time of fighting against the criminal justice system, it would be like people giving given arms and giving tactical skills to you know, people that have been fighting in these little small areas, trying to defend their territories against against bigger systems. So just the tactical strategies that we've been able to employ through the teaching of participatory defense, again, is his made us one formidable army of people. facilitating change.

Yeah, and I agree with everything that you all said. But to take it back for a second to like empowering families, because that's exactly how I came into this work right before I met debug, you know, my loved one, you know, I was serving the sentence with him, maybe like 1112 years in, and I kind of just went with what the system said, where it was life without parole, there is no nothing you can do, you know, appeals were being denied left and right. And, you know, it kind of washed my hands with that, like, it is what it is, this is our fate, right? But then I came to meet debug, where it's like, no, like, you have a voice. This is, you know, we're gonna give you a platform. These are the tools you can use, you can go out there and meet legislators and make changes change laws, and bring your loved ones home, you know, so, that is something, you know, when when the US as families are empowered, we want to share that we want to share with others like, no, don't settle for that, you know, like, you have to fight for them. Because otherwise, you know, I hate to say like they're voiceless because they have a voice. The families are just an extension of that. It goes a long way and look at you all like we're just saving time right and bringing our people home. And we're not, you know, for an answer and it's just we keep fighting until that day comes.

I tell you yell the one of the things that I say all the time is that I don't speak No, it's not in my vocabulary. I speak No, no.

And it works. Look at look at the work you're doing. So clemency has been a big part of Fox and Rob and the PD, Nola work right. Can you explain what clemency is and what it looks like in Nola and the state itself.

Um, couldn't see opportunities all over this country are far and few in between. And I think that President Trump probably had a interesting impact on it because he signed the fewest amount of pardons. But yet, the the ones that he signed, he promoted them in such a way that, you know, people thought he was handing them out like candy. And so even in the state of Louisiana, the year that Rob and I applied for a commencing, there was about 20 to 2300 applicants and out of those that were We were the only family that was incarcerated that received clemency in 2018. The only one

and some people may not necessarily understand what clemency is, but it is, in a lot of cases, especially for those of us during time during time here in Louisiana, and even in other places, a lot of times it is the, it is the last, you know, quarterback of redress. When you have, have forfeited, and or have have exhausted, you know, all of your all of your other opportunities that release clemency as a last ditch effort, that you're hopeful that someone would step in and exercise the power of authority to be able to interrupt your sentence. As Fox mentioned, it is a avenue that is open to all, but one that is seldom used by our governors. At the federal level, of course, the President makes makes the, you know, that ultimate decision. But you know, state by state, the governor is entrusted with that with that authority. In our particular state. We had a governor that came in that campaigned on criminal justice reform, and talked about how he was hopeful to be able to utilize the the method of clemency to relieve our prison population. And you know, like most politicians that sound good when they mentioned it, but it left a lot to be desired. When you talk about now that he is in his second term at bat. And to date, as a Democratic governor has signed left pardons, then some of us some of his Republican counterparts. As Fox mentioned, I think Donald Trump is probably the President that did in fact, give the least amount of pardons. But because he has such a big mouth, it seemed as if though he gave out more pardons than anybody. You know, I think that that may have been good and bad, good in the sense that it was at least positive conversations that was happening around the power of clemency. And the fact that you know, that governors as well as presidents could, in fact do. So we had lived quite a period of time following the, what was his name? Horton, Willie Horton, during the Michael Dukakis his attempt at at the presidency, Willie Horton had been had been given a furlough to go out on a on a leave of absence from from his prison sentence. And committed a committed an additional crime while he was out on on furlough. And that became such a big to do in the public. So much. So that governor started moving away from clemency, because of the Willie Horton situation. And as a result of it, it just kind of became a go to for governors all across the country that started saying, Well, I stay away from clemencies because of the Willie Horton situation, especially when you have governors that have political aspirations at a higher level, they will definitely use that as a scapegoat as a go to, to be able to avoid something that they have been entrusted to or to issue and utilize their discretion in doing.

And I think when you you even have that conversation, one of the things that we have to understand is that fake news is always at play here. Because Willie Horton was fake news. Willie Horton, they picked the name, they took the another person's image, put it with that and use some of the similar circumstances around him, and laid all of that on this gentleman that so much of it was untrue. And, and then that just became the soundbite that the bushes use to beat the caucus for the presidency. But if you go and look up, Willie Horton, you will learn that all of that was actually fake news. And so what we have to do is say, once we recognize that, you know, they hoodwinked us, right? They did it to us, again, that we have to say, Okay, I don't care anything about that. If you don't want your name on it, then just put an institutional policy in place, then you don't have to put your name on it, that it you don't sign off on it in X amount of time. That's one of the things we're looking to move Louisiana toward is if you don't sign that person's clemency application in a certain length of time. Then after, you know, six months, it actually whatever that board recommended is, if you don't reject it, then it becomes approved,

right, because many of these boards, I mean, many of these, many of our states have entrusted and created jobs, from taxpayers money for pardons and parole boards to convene on people's matters. And if we trust them enough to say They are experts in the field, then why would what a governor who is appointed a boy, then you know, skirt around the recommendations of his boy, Spock's made mentioned there were over 2000 people that had applied for clemency, many of whom have been given positive recommendations from the board. But yet no action was taken at the governmental level at the government level, you know, so again, as she made mentioned, we're working now with our own pub here in New Orleans, to bring about a change in that to where if a positive recommendation happens from the party and board, then if you don't, as a governor, respond to it within 180 days, whatever the recommendation of the board delivered, that it would be granted.

Yeah, that's definitely needed. It's similar to in California with the governor, he has aspirations to be the president, right? So when we learned that, we noticed, like a really slow down in granting clemency. And it's unfortunate that a lot of the times you have to know people, or you have to have this extensive campaign, and not a lot of people inside have family and community like that, you know, some have been incarcerated for decades, and don't even have family anymore, live living family anymore by people that are supporting them. So it's unfortunately that it does have to come down to that sometimes with, you know, the pushy media, social media, trying to get people to advocate on your behalf to the governor. I mean, I don't know if I should give him any credit. But you know, it is good to see that he is granting some life without parole, folks, because, I mean, they're the only ones who don't have any hope to come home. So I guess I give him that much credit. But, you know, we're also debug is also part of the California clemency coalition. So we meet monthly based on a monthly basis to try to strategize how to push for mass mass clemencies, and we've been meeting with the governor's staff that is in charge of clemency and pardon. So I mean, we're getting there, right, but it's just taking, taking time longer than we want. Okay, so we want to go back to you mentioned, Rob, about Mama Glow, if you both can share the journey with Mama close clemency campaign. With this,

I think for us, it was a matter of right when we started our hub, like, as soon as we got trained in April, the same week, we discovered that Mama go ahead apart and hearing and that she didn't have any support, she didn't have a lawyer, you know, just she had had a hearing in the early 90s. And she was denied. So this was the first time she was having another hearing. And this was 2019. So you know, that's a long span of time to even get another application in and approved. And so we, you know, we knew that to be free is to be free to free others. And so we took on the commitment of calling our family, because you can't do anything without the families and asking them do. Do you want our help? Because we can't make assumptions about what people want, right? So I think that it's really important that as we work to help other families, we have to even ask them, do they want our help? And so of course, her mother, her sister broke down and cried and said, nobody ever asked us to help us. And we've been, she's been going almost 50 years, nobody's ever asked us to help us. And so um, that was April in July, her hearing was coming up. And so we had to make make good on our work. Honestly. Yoli we took on mama girls mad because we thought it would be an easy win. She had served almost 50 years. The she was a woman she was a woman. And she the offense, the loss of life in her offense was not in her hands. So

she had the least amount of culpability of her or two other accomplices.

So we honestly she was 76 years old. I believe she was the same age my mother was. And so I was just thinking like, you know, wow, just imagine not growing up with my mother never being able to be with my mother what that must have been like because she had five children. And so we were determined to say this has got to be an easy one. This will be a great first win for our hug. We're gonna get in here get this victory. We just finished doing it with Rob. And so it should be nothing for us to go back through and do it for Mama globe. And that's when we learned that clemency campaign so like children, every last one you have is different. No two children that you have all the same. We have six boys and every last one of those six boys no matter how similar they may be. They are so very different. Even the twins even the twins, the was hurdles when they're like total opposites. And so with that we understood through that process that every clemency campaign is different. And it was not nearly as easy of an of a task to take on, as we had made the assumption that it was gonna be. It ended up being fed July, her whole family came down, I'm talking about she, her family showed up in a way that was just unbelievable after 50 years, and I'm talking about over 30 family members, three generations, even our great great nephew, newborn baby was there. So it was really incredible. And on the day, we got a favorable vote unanimous recommendation for her. And so we would think it would take no time to get the governance to the Governor to sign and little did we know

that it was going to take a Damascus Road experience. That is the actual words that we receive, when we send members of the clergy to talk to the governor about the possibility of signing mama glows clemency. What a lot of people don't understand is that not every state has a cookie cutter of a process from filling out an application for clemency to the you know, to the ultimate end result. And with that being said, we we have put together a nice social bio pack for Mama Glow. We had, you know, a recommendation, we had neutralize the district attorney's in her matter, she had no law enforcement opposition, she had no victim opposition or nothing of the sort. That being said, what a lot of people don't understand is that once you get past the board, getting the governor signature requires a campaign. And that campaign is to is an awareness campaign because you have several other people a lot of times sometimes 1000s of other people definitely hundreds of others that are that are competing for the same signature. That being said, you have to do something in order to elevate the the voice or the need for the for the applicant. We pulled together actions for mamma glow that included us marching around the prison where she was being housed.

Marching outside of the governor's mansion right to go on on the riverfront in Baton Rouge to launch and 50 skilled lanterns over the Mississippi River

lanterns to represent each year that she had been incarcerated at that point

was we put on a whole art exhibit, taking the persons to art exhibit at a museum and lifting her name there. We put out a Juneteenth event for mamma glow. So it was just action after action and being unrelenting in those actions and in our our work. And what

we were hopeful for is that, that, um, that compassion would set in. And we were hopeful that the people who we thought would be able to draw compassion from the governor was members of our clergy, to which at the conclusion of that, that that visit that sit down, he told the members of the clergy that it would take, they asked him, Well, is there anything that we could possibly do to, to get you to change your mind? To which he said that maybe it wouldn't take a Damascus Road experience. And I don't know how many religious people or spiritual people will biblically read people that we have that are listening. But at the rascals road experiences like when you're on the road to Jericho, and you have one of those transformations, where Saul becomes Paul, you know, because Paul was, was a murderer. Saul, rather wasn't one of Paul this, are they the same person? But as Saul, you know, he was on a murderous rampage. You know, and, and then there was this major transformation that happened in his life. And the governor was in essence saying that he needed to have similar to happen to him as an individual, for him to for him to decide mama glows on recommendation.

And so I think in that what are what our listeners have to understand and what are our people when we talk about protecting our people? What are people have to understand and that is that we don't speak No. So if the governor says to us, he's gonna take a mat since word that it's going to take a Damascus Road experience. We as people of faith, we who have seen the work of a higher power, we say, Okay, well, one Damascus Road experience coming up. Like, I don't know what that's gonna look like, but if that's what you're requesting, we're here for it. Let's go. Yeah.

So that turned into several meetings encounters with us when we You know, met up with the governor called sidebars with him hopeful that he would, you know, change his mind. What we learned along the way is that even though he continued to tell us no and even though he continued to not take action or mama glows matter, what we came to realize is that awareness was happening Nonetheless, if he didn't know if he didn't know now another app, clemency applicant that was in the stack. He knew Gloria Dean Williams and at that point, he knew Mama Glow. Her his staff knew Mama Glow. The people that do the scheduling for clemency hearings, new Obama. So whether he wanted to hear it or not, Mama Glow, I'm sure it probably woke him up in the middle of asleep sometimes at night, because we made it our point to make sure that her name was elevated.

Wow you you like you said you all were relentless. And can I just say I was honored to meet Mama Glow and her sister though at the free her conference like

beautiful I was honored to dance with Mama Glow at the free art conference, baby. Man, as a matter of fact, yesterday celebrating our one year freedom bursary, really made sure the January 25, the same day that our documentary Time was released into the world was the same day that she was released into the world back into the world. Hmm.

Wow, look at that. I love it. And then um, I mean, you you you already answered Rob to the are one of the next question was What did you learn from it? I love you all are just like ahead of the game. But how have you been able to tie in particular defense with the clemency work? And how does family power drive with clemency campaign,

in a way do this without the families, the families or the power? I mean, it's they're synonymous with one another. And I you can't say tie in to participatory defense, the work is participatory defense, you are participating in your own defense, you are participating in this person's defense. So that as well is synonymous synonymous. It just said up until the creation of this model. There hadn't been a name for it. But we've been doing it all along. But the model has just made it more succinct, more clearly coachable, well, you can get trained in it instead of just trying to instinctively do it. So all of that is just in alignment with one another, you can't have one without the other. And the

social bio packs are important when you go out to enlist help with with a with an applic in applying for clemency. It's a way that you are you able to give like an elevator pitch, because a lot of people don't have a whole lot of time. And when you're talking about people in power, whether they be DJs, whether they're judges, whether they're assistants to DJs, or assistants to judges, assistants to governors, or governors themselves, they don't have a whole lot of time, and you don't have a whole lot of time to tell them about the person. But you can give them something that gives them a snapshot as to who the person is in the form of a social bio pack. It allows them to comb through the pages. We try to make them as simple and succinct as possible. But they give everything from who the person was prior to prison, who the person is now as a result of rehabilitative training and programming since they've been incarcerated. It gives on letters of recommendations from people of the community, people in their family, that speak about who the person was, and that they've known them to be over space and time includes letters from people that can offer jobs upon release, people can offer wraparound services for the person upon release. But all of these things help the person who is looking to use their discretion and authority to help someone. It allows them to feel comfortable in that process, because they know that the individual has a support system that has been safely put around them that helps guarantee a successful reentry.

Thank you for that. Moving into the next question, will you all be continuing the work on clemency this year in 2023? And if so, what is the goal for this year?

Our goal for this year is I think clemency is just a part of who we are. So I don't think it's about whether you're not you. It's just you continue to work out together. It is an avenue for which we can massively reduce the prison population in our state. It is already in place. All we've got to do is getting governors all across this country to use that executive power and decrease the prison population in America. Every Governor we feel should be able to look at their roster. and find at least 10% annually of their prison population who deserves an opportunity to come home.

Even if you say at 1%, the population prison population here in Louisiana is roughly 40,000 people in each Governor across this across the country and our governor here in particular, were to exercise the power of 1%. That would equate to 400 people being relieved from our prison system annually.

And so for us that is our campaign for this year is that 1%, we want a bare minimum of at least 1% of the applicants that have been approved under your eight year administration, we want them to be released, because you're leaving at the end of the year, your term is up. And and that's you made a commitment to decrease the prison population. That was your the whole campaign you ran on. And so now, because you didn't accomplish that goal, you have a responsibility, a duty and an obligation to do it before you get out here. So that is the work that we are looking to launch this year. And that is to make sure that our governor executes his right as the governor to sign those clemencies of those pending applications.

So it's an accountability campaign for us this year.

Okay. And I'm here for it.

Oh, you and me both, when they put when they put the Louisiana on the headlines about this mass exodus from prison like they did with Kentucky, like they did in Mississippi like they did in Oklahoma. Right? This is not new. It's not new, but it has already been done, we just got to make sure that we are holding these lawmakers accountable and making them do the same. Once something has been done, then it proves to us that it can be done. And then it is up to us to determine that it shall be done.

And the other piece that I think that's worth mentioning is that we're really excited about all of the areas where participatory defense can go. We found that here in our own state, we were able to partner with our local Orleans public defender's office, where we were able to, to, to to assist in, in matters with plea bargaining on negotiations and those types of things to be able to not only reduce harm, but at the same time, allow people to sit, you know, to be saved from long, lengthy sentences just by being able to impart many of the things that we've learned and taken away from our participatory defense. But the thing that I think that we're even more excited about this year, is that Fox is running for state representative of district 93, which is the most powerful House seat in our state because it incorporates or encompasses all of our state's greatest assets. That being the French quarters, the Superdome, the Smoothie King Center, the French Quarter have mentioned Senator Ward, the oldest black community, in the country, and for us to be able to see how we will be able to through this scene, create legislation that we don't have to beg people to to create legislation or Arthur bills was, but we will be able to author our own bills and utilize the transferable skills that we're able to take from participatory defense and bring about the change with the passage of those bills.

Well, I mean, I knew Arsis was running for alleged legislation, legislator, but I thank you for breaking that down because I didn't realize what what that entailed with the district 93. Yes, yes. A lot. But I see it, I see it coming to pass that you're gonna take this and you're gonna do good out of it. So

yesterday, no, she is the she is the candidate. She is the front runner. candidate in all of this. She had a millionaire whose family owns banks here in New Orleans. That was also in the race. He was one of seven that was in the race. And after he started floating around with his checkbook, and he realized that he could not get any African Americans to validate his run for the seat in a predominantly black and brown neighborhood. He decided to withdraw from the race after a week of a week of being in the race. Not that Fox wasn't already the front runner she was definitely the one to beat before he ever exited the race. And now like I said she's been catapulted into the you know, well out into the, to the forefront of the of the race. So we're really excited about about What this all we'll, we'll wrap up it on and be

just entices all of us that we've got to get involved, you know, we don't have to just sit on the outside, I will have to tell you this, and then we got to get ready for a participatory defense meeting. I'm telling you this, and then we're going to wrap up. And that is, is that what Rob and I have actually learned is that we apply participatory defense to every facet of our life. That's right. Every facet of my life, whether we are negotiating a contract, or time to documentary, whether we were negotiating the contract for our book deal, as you know, we got our book that will drop time, based on our Oscar nominated documentary, it drops February 7, so we're praying for our family will support it. We give tribute to our founders of participatory defense in that book, and we talk about the work of participatory defense in that book, because it's a part of who we are. But um, every facet of our lives, this model can be applied, you got to participate in your own defense with the fighting for environmental changes, whether you're fighting against a foster care system, it doesn't matter what the challenge is, you got to participate in your own event, you got to present yourself the whole nine you got to present your argument your demonstration, your social biopic, it's just, it has made our lives so much more Incredibly, the model has made our lives so much more incredibly powerful. operating out of this model, it's the dopest thing I've ever found in my life next to him anyway.

He was waiting for that. To not finish you guys are the truth. I really appreciate we appreciate you spending your time with us and talking us through the work you're doing with clemency and everything. Just like you said PDS everything and so it's just a lifestyle, right, you apply

lifestyle, you're a well fed, well fed, and we are faxing Rob on all social media. For those that want to follow us our hub is PDM Nola 504. On social media as well. So to

know more about foxes campaign, it can be found at Fox rich.com.

Cool. Thank you guys so much. Appreciate you for having us. Yeah.

And thank you for this this gift. May God bless your gift. All right, shall we? Yeah. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai