East Meets West Integrative Acupuncture

Struggling with Crohn's disease led Dr. Alex Joannou on an unexpected odyssey, from Western medicine to the transformative embrace of acupuncture and integrative health practices. Our conversation with him uncovers the synergy between mind and body, and how stress and fear can directly influence our physiological state. You'll hear a physician's perspective as he recounts the profound impacts that alternative therapies had on his own health journey, offering hope and insight for those wrestling with chronic conditions.

When your body whispers, do you listen? Dr. Joannou teaches us to tune in to our internal dialogues, especially when they speak the language of fear or stress. We unravel the complexities of how our nervous system responds to these emotions, potentially leading to serious health implications. But it's not all about alarm signals; we also learn about the restorative effects of acupuncture, how it can quell the sympathetic nervous system, and why sometimes, the best medicine involves no words at all.

An energetic healing process that doesn't just dwell on the past but releases you from its grip, allowing space for growth and wellness. That's the transformative journey Dr. Joannou guides us through, 

Transcript

Julie Hilsen: 0:09

Hello, dear friends, and welcome to another episode of Life of Love, where we live in the spirit of curiosity and growth and just ultimate wellness. He has this special gift that he's willing to share with us and I'm really excited to share his message. Dr Alex Joannou is with us from Australia, so it's actually the morning of the next day I'm recording this on a Thursday and it's Friday morning for him, so I don't know why. I just think that's so cool. Welcome to the show, dr Alex.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 0:43

Thanks Julie. Welcome to the show, dr Alex. Thanks Julie. I've been a GP, a general practitioner, in Australia for the last 40-plus years.

Julie Hilsen: 0:59

And I've also been doing acupuncture for 25-plus years.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 1:09

So that's a story in itself to unpack is, you know, because a lot of yeah, so you know that took me on that path, as with a lot of doctors. So I've, I've met over the years, um, who get into alternate medicines, uh, or complementary medicines, as they're more politely called, um, that uh, um you, that Western medicine sometimes doesn't have the answers For my own issue. It was a matter of developing Crohn's disease and I sort of basically collapsed at work and was anemic and in severe pain. And the next week I found myself on the operating table and had two feet of intestine removed and had two large abscesses in my abdomen. The surgery, thank God, was successful.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 1:59

This was back in 1992, and the operation was successful. And I said to the surgeon afterwards, just before he discharged me uh, should I follow any particular diet, anything I should watch out for, and so on? And he says no, whatever you like, you're cured. So I did and within six weeks I started getting symptoms again. At that point I was 20 kilos lighter than I am at the moment and a lot of my patients thought I had cancer. That was a little bit bad. But yeah, that began my health journey because, you know, there was no way I wanted more surgery, which I was threatened with surgery and had to go onto steroids for three months, which settled it down.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 2:53

But you know the history of Crohn's disease as it keeps recurring time after time, and I had a particular patient in mind that was in her mid-20s and already had about six to eight operations. On a randomer, it looked like train tracks all over her with the number of incisions she had. So I didn't want to go down that path and fortunately I had a friend who was into integrative medicine. So that started me on the path of self-discovery and discovering that Western medicine hasn't got all the answers.

Julie Hilsen: 3:35

Right Gosh. So you were slapped in the face with the idea of the mind-body connection and you had an idea that it was something that you were doing. But the doctor's like, no, no, we, we removed the pathology. You're great, go ahead.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 3:49

And your body's like, oh no that's exactly right and um, the ultimate journey showed me ultimately that um, that I'd realized I'd been um capitalist, literally as as well as figuratively. I was going down that path because I wasn't standing up for myself and that meant a whole series of challenges, from a psychological viewpoint, to make changes in my life which, thank God, was all successful and I haven't had a recurrence of the cranes since 1994. So that was like 20, 30 years ago.

Julie Hilsen: 4:31

Oh, that's good to hear, that's so good to hear, that's right, that's scary. I mean, wow, you're not the first person I've heard. When there's something blocked in our psyche that it shows up in your body in a certain way and you know it's just. It's really interesting because that, that you know, your digestive track is like your center of your power, right and standing up for yourself is huge. Wow, what a, what a lesson.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 5:00

Yes.

Julie Hilsen: 5:00

Wow, and it didn't run in your family.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 5:05

No, no, it just seemed to be completely out of the blue. Wow, yes, but yes, ultimately I was on the path of acupuncture and I just found I had a natural talent for it. When I started trying it on my patients, I'd literally just gone to a two-day workshop and started using it straight away on patients who seemed desperate, because these are like patients with severe knee problems and they're on waiting lists for operation. But in the meantime they're in a lot of pain and either the opioid drugs were causing side effects or they didn't want to take them. So I said well, let's try some acupuncture. And they kept raving about the acupuncture. And so eventually I initially offered acupuncture as a last resort to patients who were desperate, and then I began offering it as an alternative. When people approached me like the back pain, I offered to get the x-rays and send them off to the specialist, or try some acupuncture first, and a fair percentage opted to try the acupuncture first and a fair percentage opt in for to try the acupuncture. And as I gain confidence, ultimately I say well, I mean somebody presented with a problem. Well, let's try some acupuncture. If that doesn't work, then we'll get all the tests done and go down the medical route. So, um, so the last few years in the practice I was just doing acupuncture only so it was awkward enough. And then I kept telling my wife, who's also a doctor, an integrated doctor about how great results I was getting with acupuncture. And it didn't matter what problem people came in. They were coming away saying that they felt terrific and they found that they weren't having arguments at home or the kids weren't annoying them or their work was. They were still having the same problems with work, but it wasn't bothering them. You're only taking home the problems. So my wife kept saying you've got to document this, you've got to document this.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 7:25

And then one day I had a woman who came to me because she had widespread osteoarthritis, mainly in the hands and the hips and the knees, and it had been bad enough that a GP decided to put her on opioid drugs. And apart from the addictive nature, which she wasn't keen on, she didn't like the dopey feeling she had on. So I said well, let's try some acupuncture. She was seeing another doctor in the practice and she knew that I did acupuncture so she was willing to give it a go. After the, after the third treatment, she didn't need the opial drugs anymore.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 8:08

And I kept going for a bit longer, for about two months, to see how good I could really get her. And she said she felt better than she had done for a long time and that she was on antidepressants and could she go off them. So I delved further into it and she'd been on antidepressants for 16 years and I thought, well, perhaps she didn't really need them anyway, because some people would just keep taking the pills because the doctor keeps prescribing it. But I looked at her records and the doctor she was seeing in the practice had tried taking her off antidepressants the year before and within six weeks all the symptoms came back and said you've just got to take these for the rest of your life. But this time she said she felt really terrific with the acupuncture. So I said, okay, let's try stopping it and see how you go. And that was in 2011,. And she hasn't needed antidepressants since and she hasn't needed opioids. She just takes the Tylenol for the pain on Tylenol for the pain and it was really brought home to me and to her.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 9:19

The change in her was that after about two months it was just before Christmas time she'd been off antidepressants for about six to eight weeks at that point, and it was Christmas time and she had a knock on the door, open the door and there were christmas carols. They started singing to her and she burst into tears and she just felt like her heart was just swaddling up with such joy and happiness. And, um, and she said she hadn't experienced that feeling for many, many years. And so I realized, yeah, the acupuncture was really doing something special here.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 10:07

And what I've realized since is that really, antidepressants they're good at suppressing the feeling of depression, the depressed mood, but they also suppress all kinds of expression of emotion, including all the good emotions like joy and happiness. So that, and talking to um patients since, I've found that a lot of them just, you know things, they don't feel depressed but they don't feel happy, and so more and more patients have been able to get off antidepressants and bring joy and happiness back in their life. So that was when I thought, okay, I've really got to spread this message, because people in Coffs Harbour, where I live, can benefit from this, but nobody else can. So that's when I got to teach acupuncture, take it on the road.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 10:56

Yeah, yeah. So now I'm teaching acupuncture worldwide, thanks to the beauty of the internet and Zoom.

Julie Hilsen: 11:03

Well, I'm so happy, I'm so happy to shout this from the rooftops. I mean well, I had two questions. Well, let's stay in your patient. How did you know where to start with the acupuncture for depression? Are the needles in the head? Are you into it where there's an interruption?

Dr. Alex Joannou: 11:27

It's interesting because, unlike the traditional Chinese medicine, the TCM form of acupuncture, this is based on assessing which chakras are blocked and then using acupuncture to alter the chakras to help unblock whatever energy blocks are there. And it makes sense when you think about it, that the chakra points are really acupuncture points, that the chakra points are really acupuncture points. They've even got names in the Chinese system, but they actually are acupuncture points and are chakras. So I now have developed a system where I get patients to fill in a questionnaire to work out which chakras have the issues, based on how they answer the questions, so like asking about their digestion and so forth, and, yeah, working out where the energy is blocked.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 12:23

I've sort of modified the system that had been started by another doctor, mikio Sanke, back in 95. He had come across the idea of using acupuncture to work on chakras and from his perspective, he was using it to help raise people's consciousness. But he was emphasising to us students that not to use it on people with mental health issues. And this was a year later when I sort of began.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 12:57

I said, well, that's all I've been using on people with mental health issues and he says oh, that's okay, you're a doctor, you know what you're doing, and so that really got me thinking about okay, how can we make this system safe enough that any acupuncturist can do it and not put a patient at risk? So that began this whole process of simplifying it and creating a system out of it to make it all something that I teach in those sort of eight weekly workshops. Wow, and good success teaching that. And you know acupuncturists uh, you know, over in canada and the us are getting getting success with their clients. So that's for me, it's like I get a little buzz out of that.

Julie Hilsen: 13:47

yeah, I can teach somebody overseas right, like you have the interactive workshops and these people have knowledge about chiropractic, but you're showing them your system and it's the transformational system that shows how to access the chakra points and the patterns. I love it. So I think you answered my other question. My other question was like, when you had it, was it? It was your chakra that's related to your root, or your sacral, and then they just worked on that area to clear it up so your body could have the feeling of flow?

Dr. Alex Joannou: 14:21

Yeah, yeah, so you tailor it to whatever the need is on the day. So I get patients to fill out questionnaires based on how they've felt since the last treatment. That way it's. You know, things shift. Sometimes. They've got a real issue with one chakra one week, but the next week it's another chakra. But overall I assist them in a scoring system and patients can obviously feel the improvement. But you can actually quantify it through how they answer the questionnaire. So I find it completely fascinating and it just appeals to that part of my mind, all that working these things out, because I love to understand how the body works. I realize what I learned in medical school was sufficient, but it's not the whole story. There's a whole lot more to the body than they teach. We aren't machines, we are people.

Julie Hilsen: 15:24

Right, and I think that's a common in many cultures. I mean, you're in Australia, I'm in America and you know, a lot of Western thought is that, you know, doctors know everything. You tell them what's going on and it's almost like a God complex. Well, you know, they're going to cure me. I'm broken, you know, give me something to fix me. And so I would love to encourage a paradigm shift of you know, your body wants to heal, your body wants to be whole and the doctor yes, doctors facilitate.

Julie Hilsen: 15:55

But you know, this idea of the body, mind, spirit connection is so powerful. Um, and, like you said, it's not taught in the. Yeah, I guess they only have so much time. But you know, at some point doctors in medical school need to learn about nutrition and like, because it's so obvious, what you put in your body is what you get out. I mean, you feed your dog really cheap food and your dog develops cysts and tumors. Right, I mean, we can, we don't need evidence, we have all the evidence around us. We know that people who eat cheese puffs every night for dinner develop clogged arteries and heart attacks. Like, there's this connection and I just love to illuminate.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 16:40

Yeah, yeah, it was interesting for me to reflect that in my years of training as a doctor, which is six years, we spent one hour on nutrition.

Julie Hilsen: 16:51

Yeah, that's pretty phenomenal and lots of time figuring out what drugs to give. And I'm not against medications, but I do find um, if I have something, well, I had a piece of sand to get in my eye over the weekend and I was a lot of times I can just lay in bed and and ask for healing and I can run energy through my body and like I can feel like support and a lot of times I'll have a fever and I'll just accept the fever and let it run through and I won't need an antibiotic or anything. But I was just crying so hard over the weekend I went to bed. I said said I'm going to wake up, my eye is going to feel better. Well, it felt worse. It felt so bad. I was like I got to go to the doctor, take me to urgent care because we were in Florida and I got drops and steroids and, oh my gosh, I felt so much better.

Julie Hilsen: 17:45

But doing both things is so amazing because I believe that I was able to to recover faster, because I know my body, if I support it, it's going to be okay and but I'm going to honor it.

Julie Hilsen: 18:02

And you know, I didn't spend the day pretending like my eye didn't hurt. I spent the day, you know, with my eye out of the sun and just taking naps and, you know, trusting that the eye drops are going to work. But, um, it's, it's really fun for me to play in this idea that you know, trusting that the eye drops are going to work, but it's it's really fun for me to play in this idea that, you know, let me run my energy, let me see where my blocks are, let me think about what's bothering me and be present with what's bothering me, instead of trying to push it down or have a glass of wine and forget about it like these, these avoidance. And I want to just talk to you about like fear and how you've seen it show up in your patients, and how important it is for people to recognize fear, to heal.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 18:45

Well, yeah, that's a good question. I mean, in terms of the Chinese medicine, they associate the kidneys with fear. So often that manifests as problems in that part of the body, you know, sort of down towards the pelvic area, and often, particularly the knee. Problems can indicate kidney issues, believe it or not. But more than that is.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 19:16

You know, from a Western viewpoint, you think of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 19:22

It's the two aspects of the autonomic nervous system which controls all those unconscious processes in the body.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 19:30

And for too many people the sympathetic nervous system is switched on all the time and that's the fights and flight reaction which, if you need to run away or fight, then that's perfect for you. It needs because the uh, the body reacts by diverting blood supply from the, from the digestive tract and reproductive organs, and directs it to the muscles, skeletal muscles, so you can run faster and get harder. And also, you know, as well as diverting the blood there, the heart speeds up, your blood pressure goes up all to and get the oxygen to where it's needed in the muscles, because they're going to be working hard, and that's terrific. And even things like blood supply to the kidneys shuts down, so you don't waste a drop of your blood. You retain all the fluid you can in case you're going to bleed, and also the liver releases clotting factors into the bloodstream so that your blood plots quicker, and that happens within three seconds of a fright. All of that happens, so that's pretty phenomenal.

Julie Hilsen: 20:49

Pretty amazing, right yeah.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 20:52

And then, of course, once the emergency is over, the parasympathetic system switches on, which then directs the blood away from the muscles and back to the internal organs, and so there's the nurturing and healing process, which is why, when somebody's stressed, they often lose their appetite or they lose a sense of comfort in their appetite, or they they lose a sense of, you know, comfort in their abdomen when they eat, because it's, you know, the juices can't get there because they're not, uh, they're not being signaled to to work. And if it's in a chronic situation like you're constantly in traffic jams trying to get to work and you're running late, and all of that still fires the fight or flight response. So by continually shutting the flow of blood to the kidneys, that's going to give you high blood pressure and your heart's going to be working harder, which increases the risk of heart attacks. And even with clotting factors, that increases the risk of a heart attack from a thrombosis in the coronary artery and also the cerebral artery, so you end up with a stroke.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 22:07

So all those things are at greater risk because the sympathetic system's working overtime, so they're switching off. So there are points that's. The first pattern I teach acupuncturists is to be able to switch off the sympathetic nerves from firing. And it's interesting that even often by the end of the treatment patients are pressing the buzzer because they need to go and empty their bladder. And that's because suddenly the flow to the kidneys is dramatically increasing, which increases the amount of urine they're producing. So acupuncture can help reverse the situation that quickly.

Julie Hilsen: 22:46

Yeah, all systems go right. It's like, okay, we're safe and we don't have to fight that lion, we. And then I understand that people can get addicted to that dopamine rush of you.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 23:02

Know your brain, what your brain does when your parasympathetic nerve system takes over and and you're, you're really responding out of this, this fear, state that it can be addicting that's right and because, uh, when, when you're in that state, that's when you uh people often comment, when there's great drama, uh, uh, that it's like time slows down and they see everything that's going on and feel like they can move at a faster speed. I mean it's the perception of that that's because of the extra glucose being released and going to the brain and so on. So hence the addiction sort of feeling. Because, you know, when you give patients treatments, apart from increasing their urine output, it also people fall asleep. They're just like ugh from exhaustion. Often, yeah, it's like they haven't got that artificial stimulation saying go, go, go, go go. So they fall asleep and after a few times of that they get into the swing of the acupuncture very easily. But before that it's like you have to spend all the time trying to switch off those sympathetic nerves and get the person in a calmer state.

Julie Hilsen: 24:21

And think about how the relationships can improve when they can be more present and not be reactive, because when your body's going through these things and your blood is thick and you know you're, you can't really feel where you are in space because everything's slowed down and you're, you know all these things. They affect the way you interact with other people. It's not like this is happening just to you. This is affecting people in your life. So, gosh, you know it's a really powerful, powerful shift, not just for the person, but you know their loved ones and their relationships and that's you know. A lot of times, when you get down to your core values, it's like your connection. You know that this, this idea of separation, is a myth, but you can feel so separated when you feel like you're under attack all the time, so you can bring people to this place of community. Yeah, yeah, it's the self-defense.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 25:15

Yeah, so you're going to see lions around every corner, aren't you really? Right and then and the news hypes that up, that idea of constant fear, and all and all you know that this is a bad danger, right, if that's what you're looking for, your brain is determined to see that too.

Julie Hilsen: 25:39

So it all works. There's there's studies that show your perception of what's going to happen definitely affects what you perceive. I mean, um, I just said the same thing twice, but what you expect to see, your brain will try to happen. That's why five different people have the same experience and five different answers will come out. It's totally different and it's curious. I know there's a. It's a psychological phenomenon, but I can't remember the name of it, but it's. It's so amazing how we can affect the things around us for positive and negative. We always try to say oh, you know, think positive, think positive. But there is definitely ramifications of the negative and sometimes, like you said, it's your unconscious nervous system. You can't even like, control it until you realize that you can like, until your awareness kicks in or someone like you says, okay, gosh, it makes you. You know they used to do those lobotomies or, um, the shock therapy. You know it's like. Well, maybe they weren't that far off, but it was very barbaric the way they did it in the beginning.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 26:47

Well, acupuncture is much gentler, it's gentler.

Julie Hilsen: 26:53

That's the body. The body's taking.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 26:56

Yes, and the thing is, often people will go into quite a deep meditative state during the acupuncture and they become aware of their own thoughts. It's a fascinating thing that we can it's a part of us that can sit back and observe ourselves, thinking that often during the acupuncture people start remembering things from the past or making connections with their behavior and their illness. You know their attitudes at mind and they're commonly expressed emotions or reacting like, say, with the liver. Issues in Chinese medicine is associated with anger and frustration, whereas with kidneys it's fear and so forth. So people become a lot more aware of this when they're having the acupuncture. The beauty of acupuncture, I think, is it can honour the person by putting needles in and then leave them in the room alone, so they're experiencing what they experience, and everybody's journey is individual and unique it sounds so great.

Julie Hilsen: 28:03

I mean because to me what you're describing, traditional acupuncture, is treating the body like a machine. Well Well, this hurts. So we're going to go to this area and your transformational acupuncture is looking at their energy systems as a whole, their symptoms, emotional and physical, and then treating with the needles with the acupuncture based on their energy system, not just the symptom.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 28:32

Yes, exactly Okay.

Julie Hilsen: 28:34

Well, I want to talk about your book, the book that you wrote Stick it to Depression. So I love that play on words there. I'm a punny girl myself. So Stick it to Depression. Yeah yeah, so stick it to depression.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 28:51

Yeah, yeah, I wrote two books, both called Stick it to Depression. The first one was subtitled Another Tool in your Doctor's Bag, and I wrote that to tell other doctors, make them aware that the value of acupuncture in helping their patients with depression and that there are alternatives and that it does work. And then I wrote the second book with the same title, stick it to Depression, but the subtitle was Get your Life Back, naturally, and I wrote that specifically to make the public aware of this, the fact that acupuncture can help them or their loved ones or friends.

Julie Hilsen: 29:35

Yeah, well up to their consciousness. I mean so many because we all have the answers inside us. It's just taking the time to really listen and explore, and I loved how you described that.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 29:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, too much in this modern world really takes people away from that. You know, your smartphones, tv, any form of entertainment you like on the internet is all a distraction really.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 30:03

Yeah, uh-huh, yeah and yes they used the idea of fear basically to to get people hooked. You know, like the latest news, where the news reporters breathlessly report you know another shooting or something like this, and it's almost like they're saying it with glee. In some sense, sometimes it's just because I've got this great story to tell me, and but it's. It's all designed to capture your attention and take you out of your out of your own way, isn't it really?

Julie Hilsen: 30:41

and and just that, the ability to recognize that, and you can experience that state of being in yourself and being calm and present. And then, when you realize that's coming at you, you can be like, oh no, that's, that's pollution. It's pollution to my spirit. You know what I mean. Like just that awareness, you can discern what's what's good for you, or you know you can tell when they're throwing the fear. But you have to, you have to make a decision for yourself and your family to uh, to uh cleanse. Cleanse your, not just your body, but your environment. What's up? Because it does energetically affect um, the whole, the whole environment when there's you know it's it's hard to. There's even energetics connected to words and even how the words are said or words are very powerful.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 31:37

So it takes a lot to um, to cleanse and reboot and a large part of adulthood is is um, re-evaluating what happened in your childhood and thinking is this truly a value I hold or is it something that was drummed into me so you know? Particularly with people with chronic illness, that's a good area to explore that sort of thing to get your thinking about okay. So why is my go-to emotion, anger and frustration all the time? Why do I need to hit out at something you know? All of that To unlearn, all of that takes the rest of your life, doesn't it?

Julie Hilsen: 32:27

Yeah, and just to say, well, I don't think I want to show up like that anymore and then just be curious about what. What comes to you. It's uh, yeah, because you don't. And I always, I always tell people every day is a chance to live the life of your dreams. So if it, if this day didn't work the way you wanted, maybe figure out how you could have shown up differently. And you know it's easy to blame the politicians or the environment, or blame your parents or your brother or your spouse, but ultimately your mood and your, the responsibility for your happiness falls on you. So I challenge my listeners to to take a look. And things aren't going well. Look at, look at how you might be contributing, because there's, there's definitely ways you can help, no matter what. Being in service, saying how can I show up for the highest good is a great place to start, because you'll see, when you're looking for good, good's gonna come around.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 33:23

So yeah, yeah, I mean, there are studies that show you that you have your focus on you, that you focus on. You're attracted on what you keep focusing on. You start seeing more and more. It's like if you decide to buy a particular model of car a Tesla or whatever and it's like then you start seeing Teslas everywhere because it's playing on your mind, so your mind's going out to this specifically spot for these things. So if you're looking really cool time yeah, then you're gonna find the bad things. You're gonna see suspicious activity and so on, and it's all.

Julie Hilsen: 33:59

You're constantly hyperpejual well, I've just adored this um time we had together dr alex um, and I know that your website's really informative and you're concentrating on your training of acupuncturists to use your method. And was there anything else you wanted to share or anything that was on your heart?

Dr. Alex Joannou: 34:24

Yeah, I was just going to say for anybody, if they go to my website, which is stickittodepressioncom, if they can get onto my mailing list and there's stuff that's relevant to the general public as well to inform them. Plus, that actress hopefully near you who can help has been trained by me Right like the Life University.

Julie Hilsen: 34:49

I'm sure they'd be really interested. You had a whole career as an internal medicine doctor and your knowledge is so valuable.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 34:58

Yeah, thanks, thanks, julie.

Julie Hilsen: 35:01

I'm excited and I hope that people can go on my website and comment if they've experienced any of these kind of things and and I know lots of people really love their chiropractor, so this isn't any. This isn't like crazy out of off the wall is um, this is, this is applying what we've done for a long time in a way that it is. It's transformational, so it all those kind of things, when they line up, always make a lot of sense, so I love it.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 35:34

Yeah, and you know it's not transformational. I'm just certainly not the only way to transform your life. But it does have an advantage that it doesn't require conscious effort other than to turn up for the treatments. Things start to happen automatically because that's the way the body wants to balance itself and get back to an even ripple. Whereas, you know, a lot of people will go for talk therapy, you know, sit down with a counsellor or a psychologist, which can be very useful, but for a lot of people they just get tired of retelling the story of their childhood and not feeling like they're moving on. So something like this can really help. You know, short-circuit, a lot of talk, because you don't need to talk about these things to let them go. That's one of the advantages of acupuncture and of course you can combine it with seeing a psychologist because it does dredge up memories from the past, things long forgotten. It helps to sit down and talk through it with someone.

Julie Hilsen: 36:46

It sure does. It helps to be seen, it helps to be there for someone who needs to be seen, and you can't, you can't discount that, that connection of you. Know I, I can, I can relate to where you are and I hold space for how you're feeling because you're right, we, a lot of us, have gone around masking our weaknesses, masking our emotions, because we're just trying to fit in and be part of the group. And you know, just not deal with it because it's too scary. And you know I, I totally get it, because we're just trying to survive, right, but at some point it manifests and in your you're seeing that in your practice. So so yeah, it just be curious, there's different ways to we say, in the States there's more than one way to skin a cat. Don't say that in Australia.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 37:39

Yeah, yeah, we use that expression.

Julie Hilsen: 37:41

So if this resonates with you, check it out. And again, thank you, dr Alex. I adored our conversation and I learned a lot, so that's always fun.

Dr. Alex Joannou: 37:52

Thanks, jolene, that was terrific. Thanks, thanks.