Why magicians make the best designers, with Adrian Westaway, co-founder of Special Projects

Special Projects' co-founder, Adrian Westaway  talks to us about his journey from amateur magician to master designer and how the skills of illusion can be applied to drive better design outcomes.

Design and magic are both human centric disciplines that leverage  psychology to influence behaviours and attitudes; and both benefit from "someone spending more time on something than anybody would reasonably expect". 

We talk about: Adrian's experience at the burlesque experience, Lost Vagueness; about managing creative partnership with your life-partner and talk trough how to create awe when designing experiences.... Could it be magic?  We certainly think so.

About Adrian.

Adrian is an award-winning designer and inventor whose unique approach to design draws on his two biggest passions: magic and technology. Fascinated by the similarities between the two disciplines, he joins them together in products and experiences that have the ability to not only surprise and delight but prompt positive change for individuals and communities.

As co-founder of Special Projects, the London-based design and innovation studio, Adrian leads a team that crafts strategic design visions and reinvents user interactions for forward-thinking global clients. Special Projects blends magic, humanity and technology to transform ordinary interactions into extraordinary experiences. The studio's work spans sectors including consumer goods, technology, AI, automotive and health and wellbeing for clients such as Google, Samsung, BBC, Lego, Sonos and P&G.

A thought leader on design thinking and innovation, Adrian frequently speaks at events for organisations such as Innovate UK, Design Museum and Google Creative Lab and was on the Advisory Panel for the UK Design Innovation Network, helping deliver the UK Government’s innovation strategy.In 2007 Adrian became the first ever James Dyson Fellow, and in 2012 a Fellow of the Royal Commission of 1851. He is also a full member of the Magic Circle.

Links from this episode.

Hoxton Street Monster Supplies.

Its not how good you are, its how good you want to be. By Paul Arden

Anika Yi's great flying sculptures at The Tate Modern

The Helen Hamlyn Centre for Design.

Service Design YAP is developed and produced by the Service Design Network UK Chapter.
Its aim is to engage and connect the wider Service Design community.

• Episode Host: Stephen Wood
• Production Assistance: Jean Watanya

Transcript

00:00:00] 

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So welcome to another edition of service design yap. 

, on this episode, we're joined by Adrian Westerway, who is the co founder of special projects, which I can't describe. So I'm going to pass the baton and ask Adrian. First question is how would you describe special projects?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Hi, Steve.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Hey,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: a lot for that. I was kind of hoping you would describe it for me, so Special Projects is a design and innovation studio, and we blend magic, human centered design, and technology. , to create new product vision. So basically in completely inventing, new products, , or trying to really rethink how we interact with existing things in a more sort of delightful and magical way.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: And the reason that we've asked Adrian to join us on yap is for the magic element. I think. In a sea of sameness, when you look at a lot of the design and innovation consultancies, I don't think any other consultancy has magic [00:01:00] as one of its core values. So we'll come on to that in the main body of the Yap podcast. always start off with a quickfire round and unfortunately, Adrian, you are not exempt from that. So are you ready to rattle through the seven quickfire questions?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I'm really ready. Let's go for it.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So career path, was it design school or was it on the job learning?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: , Um, I studied in electronic engineering, so it was kind of engineering first, and then I went to design school. , one and then the other.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: did you study? And

, And 

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: so I did engineering in Bristol and then I did, , design Innovation, design, engineering at, the Royal College of Art , in London.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: when was that?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh. , I finished the RCA in 2007, so of, the whole thing was from sort of 2000 to 2007

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: And if you think about your early career,, what was the first job you ever had?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I was a shelf stacker in a toy department of a [00:02:00] department store called Jenners in Edinburgh. And that was my first job. Yeah. You know, Jenner, .

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: classy.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Absolutely. , it had a great code department in the basement and, , , I think I was 15 and I would do Thursday evenings sort of from six till nine.

The store had to be shut and we would get these sort of, oh, hang on, this is quick fire. Can I keep going? I don't know. I feel, I feel very,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: about toys

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: ,

um, is a foundational thing.

It was a great first job, definitely. And then we would get the toys in, , that would be kind of unloaded from the crates and we'd have to go and go around the toy store.

, I did find it quite scary sometimes being alone in the toy department at night and having all these furbies sort of staring at me and, , and yeah, I don't know. I kind of now when I'm on holiday and I see sort of inflatable, swimming pool stuff, on sale on holidays, or like swimming goggles, all these kind of things.

It kind of brings back all these quite scary memories of like toy packaging and, and evil Furbies and stuff. , but apart from that, , it was a great first job.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: are doing the night shift at Jennas and

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: [00:03:00] Yes,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: to do a bit of an elf given you were at home alone? Well, that's a different movies, isn't it? You were in the, toy department at night.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I did. I remember one time I used to do card tricks for the team because there were lots of people in all the different departments. Sometimes there were three of us in the toy department because it was pretty big. And I remember one time just doing some card tricks.

And then my boss came down and really told me off, I would have been 15 or 16. and then I never dared to do anything like that at work again because it was quite a strict sort of a Scottish boss. So yeah, , I stuck to the job.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: they, they were desperate to take joy outta the toy department then. Awesome.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: It's true. It's true. Yeah. Maybe if I'd gone to the toilet paper department or something, it would have been more fun because maybe it would be the opposite. I don't know. I should try that next time.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: there's a toilet paper department. It's

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah. I do know that folding the shirts in the menswear department, because my good friend Colin worked there, that was quite an art [00:04:00] to kind of get the fold, you know, just right.

So that could, yeah, exactly.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: flap when you go to the men's department?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Do I

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah, are you a

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: flap? I don't know what you mean by flapping.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: out the shirts , and the sweaters and , give them a

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: back in it,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: no.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: folded way.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: No, I always feel incredibly guilty when I pick up any item of clothing in a clothes shop because someone's going to have to fold it and put it away. So I do often kind of try and hide it somewhere and then just escape. , yeah, I don't think I'm a flapper.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: for all those people who do any sort of drawing in a new warm up activity, , let that be a lesson to you. If you do something perfect, people really don't want to follow. So if it's messy, people will take it off the shelf and maybe even buy your sweater. But, , there we go.

, ....., if we think about your job, then. What would you say that would be?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh, that's really difficult. I mean, without sounding cheesy, , I do really love my job right now. , and, as it's sort of over a long period of [00:05:00] time that I've been doing it, but I think , it's really hard to kind of. answer that question, because they've all been kind of different, , and exciting in different ways.

But I think the moment where I felt really like, oh my goodness, I found this incredible place was when I was an intern at an interactive artist's studio called Grey World in London in Spitalfields. And when I just walked in the door, they were making so many crazy things, they were trying to write words in water with bubbles and robotic tails and there were so many things projecting on smoke that was appearing, really just a lot of kind of electromechanical interactive kind of things.

And I just remember thinking, oh my god, this is just incredible, this can be a job. , so I think that was my favorite kind of moment where I kind of realized it was possible to have jobs like that. But I do genuinely love my job right now as well.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So it's more of a career epiphany moment rather than a,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah, [00:06:00] exactly.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: and, uh, clearly because of your very close relationship with your co founder, you must say that your favorite job is the one you do now.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I have to say that. Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: and just for the avoidance of ambiguity, who's your co founder?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: So Clara Gadgero Westaway, who's also my wife, so we met at the RCA, , and essentially, , I've been working together ever since sort of the first week , of meeting on the course.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So many people take refuge, , in their job, , and then keep the domestic and the professional as two very, very separate realms, but you don't have that division or do you? Is there a way to perpetuate a division, in some way?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: We do now, but it took time to figure it all out. , and it's really fascinating talking to, different friends and couples , who kind of work creatively together. I think there's definitely a really interesting book in that. , and there's a lot of people, I mean, just within, , The Royal College.

I know so many couples that sort of started things together. , [00:07:00] and I think most of them are actually still , running the things that they started, at the beginning, we just worked flat out all the time forever. And it was really fun because we loved it. , but there was a sort of turning point where we realized we really, you know, quite predictably, , had to kind of try and put some boundaries on it.

So now we're really, really good. We basically don't talk about work. Yeah. at all when we're at home, . We, , really try and stop at six , and just keep working in work really. , and, and that works . Yeah. I actually, I feel bad now cause I know they were quick fire questions.

I was going to say, I could tell you what my worst job was because I find it hard to pick the best one, I was talking about all the different bits and pieces and jobs I've had over time and actually quite strangely. The job I hated the most was when I was a magician. It's strange because magic's always been my passion.

. , but, , I thought I would absolutely love being a professional magician , for money. And I did do it for a while I would do it before theater [00:08:00] shows like as people were waiting and I would go to these sort of burlesque events in a elephant.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Okay.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: one called the lost vagueness in elephant castle. So that I'd be on from sort of 2am till 6am or something. , and I do magic and I really just hated it. And it was quite surprised that something that's been always been such a passion for me, as soon as I had to do it for money and keep repeating the same thing again and again and again and again.

, I really didn't like it and it was quite surprising. It took me a while to come to terms with it, but now I just do magic like in terms of tricks anyway, just for friends, you know, and when people ask when I'm, you know, having dinner or whatever, things like that.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: the same page. I think, my father always used to say happy as the person that does, what they do for a hobby for their living. But again, you have this division, and when things shift over from, this is what I love to do, to this is what I have to do, , it, it almost robs it of, of the joy. I studied film and. When I was studying film, the last thing I wanted to do was go and see a film after spending a week studying film. [00:09:00] that was, and I don't think I've really recovered.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah, it's really interesting. And in fact, I'm really interested to have this chat today, actually about magic because, you know, I arguably, , do use some bits of magic in my work, but it's not the same as doing tricks is actually quite different. So there is overlap and that's lovely.

I read magic books every day. , to relax and learn, just learn tricks constantly. But yeah, the actual performing of the trick itself and everything. Yeah, that's not the same as my work and I keep those things separate.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: talked about reading magic books every day. Is there

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yes,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: a kind of design y book or some sort of source that , you always bore people with by saying, Oh, have you read this? Oh, this is life changing.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I find it really hard to think of a design book to be honest. So, so there is a magic book which will only be appealing to very few people , , but, , probably one of the books that had the biggest impact on me, was called The Art of Astonishment by Paul Harris.

And it's three books in that series. I mean, the title is The Art of Astonishment, Pieces of Strange to [00:10:00] Unleash the Moment. And, it's all about creating these really surreal moments where strange looking things happen.

And there's three whole books dedicated to it. And that's just such a wonderful book. In terms of design books, I'd love to name some sort of highbrow design books, but I mean, I read lots of the ideal books and stuff before I studied and I really enjoyed all of them. But I think, , I really liked, it's quite a cheesy book. My friend's gonna make fun of me for picking this one.

But anyway, , it's not how good you are, it's how good you want to be. It's just like a tiny little book, , and it's just got lots of really little inspiring creative quotes or little ideas in them. and I mean, I haven't read it in a wee while, but, I definitely went back to that book and I probably bought it about seven times because I'll always just give it to someone and say, Oh, you got to read this.

, and I do find it quite nice just when I'm a bit stuck or a bit down creatively, or, you know, I just need a bit of a boost. And there have been many, many, many, many other books that sound exactly like this book, but none of them I think are as [00:11:00] good . 

And it's amazing because I've been reading that book since I was about, I don't know, 16 or 17. And I've always gone back to it. And I love it. It's quite old now. But I think it's just like a nice, inspiring, creative book. It's very light.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: it sounds a bit like Alan Fletcher's the art of Looking Sideways, which you see because

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh yes!

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: you see on many shelves. And I, I just absolutely love it. Editorial design's great. , and also the content always, gives you a bit of a kickstart.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Nice. Yeah. And there's so many of these, you know, packs of cards and inspiring things and everything, but I just, I've not had anything as good as this one. And I think it's just a fiver. So

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Well,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: it a go.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: value. So thinking back to this idea of couples that work together, but I do wonder whether the relationships of people that work together actually last longer than those who may not, because if you work together, you're going to encounter. Differences of opinions and potential conflict and contradiction on a very regular [00:12:00] basis and have to talk through how you get to a conclusion. So maybe it's, uh, , what doesn't kill you make you stronger scenario.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: It's really interesting. I think there's lots of pros and cons. One of the advantages , especially in This sort of strange little design world , that we work in. It's quite a strange job. I don't think any of my friends or family really, I think I've managed, well, it's not their fault for not understanding, but I don't think I've ever managed to really explain it to them.

And, , it's just quite nice to have someone who really understands inside and out what you've been working on , and you can . acknowledge and celebrate the good bits in a really deep way that you would just never be able to do with someone who didn't fully get what you do.

So I think that's brilliant , and I love that. , but then, it sort of never stops. It's quite nice also to just have, things to talk about, but, design's one of those things that really becomes part of your identity and who you are, and it's quite hard to strip that out completely.

So, so Yeah, I do think it's good, but I'm not gonna lie, it can also be challenging too.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: absolutely. [00:13:00] So, carrying on with a quickfire round. I think the next question is around, which approach to design that you favor. Would you put yourself in the faster horses category or are you a data-driven designer?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh, it's a really difficult question. It's got to be both. When I came to, the RCA after an engineering degree. I was very much in the sort of faster horses, didn't believe in design process, just thought you would get an idea immediately and just go with it.

And I kind of went along with that for two years. , and it worked quite well, and it can work quite well. Sometimes it works brilliantly. , but then I went to study at the Helen Hamlin Centre. which is, , for listeners who don't know, , it's sort of part of the RCA and it's a center, , devoted to developing human centered research methodologies.

I was really lucky to work there with Jeremy Myerson and Rama Gurao and the rest of the amazing team there. And it was just incredible. We spent a year just thinking about how to [00:14:00] involve people in research. And we were kind of, you know, Motivated and provoked to create new ways of trying to get insights out of people, and it was just wonderful.

And I think at that point, I realized, Well, wow, this is incredible. So then after that point, , any project we've ever done, and I really genuinely mean it, there will always be, sort of human centered research element will always involve people and we'll hold back from coming up with ideas.

And we'll really, really try hard, , to just lay down the foundation. And I mean, everyone does it secretly on the sketchbook and it's fine. It's not, it's not the end of the world if you get the idea before, but we literally spend one third of a project on research. We don't talk about ideas at all with the client or internally.

And then we can go into the sort of visionary ideation bit where we can kind of be quite free, but it's really important that we've laid the foundations first with, with the research, , and everything before we kind of, you know, go wild with the ideas and that anchors it in, in a nice place. , and I think [00:15:00] that just works really well.

So I don't know if I've answered your question, but it is definitely a bit of both. Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: that difference between using data for context and using data to lead the witness because, , , it may be a signal, but it's a signal of what may be rather than giving you an absolute direction and it's how do you then bring in your view or maybe some context that you bring a new into that mix to create something that is. And

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah,

.

absolutely. Yeah, it's kind of like, I kind of see like, you know, the idea is a bit , like little helium balloons with the ropes and stuff, and you can release them all at the beginning, or you can kind of tether them to some sort of concrete, , meaning or insight or need. And it's just, , the balloons are still there, you're still coming up with ideas, but it's just that they're anchored into something, and I think that's really, really important. So it's just, I think, yeah. It's both.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: happy.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Does everyone say that? I bet they do.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: no, no. You're a unique and visionary thinker. Yeah, everyone says that. , did you see the exhibition at the Tate, uh, about a year ago where they [00:16:00] had , the floating robots that were

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah, those kind of weird, like, sort of octopus y kind of sea they look like they were like, almost underwater creatures. Yeah, I remember that.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: it's, , it's, those are the, kind of the ideas that interact with , the reality of , the surroundings that then, you know, You dictate the course that they take. I, I think that exhibition

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: the

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: only one where I've seen kids just with amazement and watching these things go through.

And you know, , I go to the Tate far too regularly and I've seen lots of people go, Oh, where are the, where are the little floaty monstery things? And there's a real sort of nostalgia for for those little Whatever they were, like the Hyundai sponsored, floating automating. We'll have to find out what they were.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I love that exhibition. And, the, I mean, one of the thing I absolutely loved about it was the charging area. Because actually. a whole chunk of this tape modern, it was a prime kind of exhibition space, , , it had to [00:17:00] be sectioned off to maintain and charge these robots and there were people kind of working around the clock because probably the batteries didn't last that long, , and one would come in and kind of dock and then they would have to recharge it and send the next one up and I kind of just love the sort of logistical side of it and how You know, you had this really wild thing, but then it also, , had to work and, and kind of be designed properly.

But, , it's interesting, I don't know, this is completely off topic, but it feels,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: it. Yeah. Yeah.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: guilty that this is the quick fire question. I actually, I mean, anyway, it's fine. . , what I thought was interesting with that exhibition was.

And I agree with you, there used to be, I feel like there used to be so many more of these amazing genuinely interactive kind of installations about sort of 15 years ago, . And in fact, the job I mentioned that one of my sort of favorite epiphany moments was, was exactly making these types of things, you know, things that would have been similar.

And, and , a friend of mine, , you may know [00:18:00] Alexandra Dino, and she was involved in a lot of internet of things, things and many, many other things as well. But , I heard a, a podcast with her recently and , she sort of said as soon as the iPhone came out, all of that really interesting physical, interactive art just sort of got sucked into the iPhone or an iPad and, and a screen.

And , it's really true. , you had all these amazingly wonderful tactile analog experiences and , then the sort of the multi touch thing appeared and then there was projection mapping and then it all just became kind of this generic sort of, you know, generic kind of exhibitions and yeah, anyway, that's a whole, I love that exhibition for that reason really.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: And I think when things shifted. the glass, they became scalable and they became cheaper. There was less

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: There was less transportation. , the only docking and charging you need to do with your iPhone is when you get home at night. So yeah, it's a, an, an, a great accountant, uh, driven art, uh, movement, maybe, there, there we go. Fantastic. [00:19:00] So the last question in the quickfire round, Adrian. Do you have a favorite design framework or method?

It's really difficult because we have our own process in the studio and, you know, , there are lots of other kind of like approaches like double diamond approach and different famous approaches that there's a lot of similarities in it.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: So I don't think it's. , and I think that's really necessarily worth going into too much detail with it. But I think maybe I thought rather, rather than pick a favorite whole method, I thought I could just pick a favorite point that's present in a lot of methods. , and, you know, so the research is, is really, really, really, really important, , essential.

And. I think, , we do a lot of user research and expert research and, you know, going to places and shadowing and all sorts of stuff. But I , think the unsung hero in the, the sort of bit of research that does a lot of the heavy lifting I've found in lots of projects is, is looking at [00:20:00] parallels, like kind of parallel experiences, parallel markets.

So as an example, we were doing a project. with , a big tech company around AI personal assistants. This was maybe five or six years ago. And one of the things we, were looking at was how you might sort of choose an assistant that behaves in a certain way, .

And as part of the research, we thought of many different Parallel. So like, how do you choose a perfume? How do you choose a pet? , how do you choose a partner? , choosing basically was kind of the parallel. And, and then we went to sort of speed dating events. 

We tried, we sort of pretended, well, no, we weren't too devious, but we were, we went through the process of adopting a dog. , and then also with perfume, which is such a, an intangible thing.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: this?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: No, we didn't, we didn't, but we kind of went and did a few sessions to see what it was like. But anyway, the point being that, you know, choosing an AI assistant is something that, you know, not many people will have ever done.

And so there's a lot of unknowns in [00:21:00] there. , and it's just the same, like choosing a perfume. It's a really intangible thing. And it's got, you don't have the vocabulary to describe what you want. You often, you often don't know what you want. It's very personal. And there's some really amazing, I absolutely love perfume.

We've done some, few perfume projects, and it's such a fascinating world because it's so intangible. , and there's lots of interesting, , places that have interesting processes to kind of choose one. But anyway, I think what really helped in that project, and it has helped in so many other projects, was taking whatever you're looking at, and breaking down bits of the process, and then trying to find, Parallels, , in, in other areas that may be doing it well, but you're doing completely different fields, , and it can make the client quite nervous sometimes, depending on, you know, what those parallels end up being.

, but I find that really, really, really helps the most. So yeah, that's my favorite part of a, method.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: who in the team suggested the speed dating?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I don't remember.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: that's very

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: there's some funny stories about it. There are some funny stories about it, but I won't, I won't go into them, 

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: [00:22:00] looking

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: going to talk.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: analogous processes via open relationships and disappointing stray dogs. yeah,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yes.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: the, the, the dog there going, I didn't know this was a prototype. this was, , going to be, uh, yeah, yeah, there we go.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: , we've done cats too as well. It's not just dogs always, but Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So yeah, this is it.

Uh, if you thought, , Vance's comment about cat women has turned people against , the Trump campaign, the fact that you've gone in and got the hopes up of dogs and cats in, cat's homes. , what?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I, the, the photo of the dog is still haunting me and we actually, we look at it in the studio probably once every, I'll, I'll send it to you. I'll send it to you after, but , we kind of look at that picture every six months and it's just, yeah. , I hope it's happy. I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is.

But it's interesting because in the batch sea, cat, and dog home, you actually get to go. in a little, , living room for, like, half an hour and spend time on the sofa with the dogs. You get to, , experience what it might [00:23:00] be like to have the dog in your home and I think it's really fascinating. .

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So it's almost like a sort of a design mock up area where you can see

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah!

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: this might be used in a home scenario. Good Lord. Those two way mirrors though, I'm sure they've kept the videos. Brilliant. I think you answered that question really, really well. Uh, even though you said, well, I'm not going to answer it.

You actually it bang on the nose. So

So let us move on to the main body of the

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Okay.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: We're talking about Magic. And you've told us a little bit about your background doing card tricks, , in. Toy department uh, in, uh, burlesque, , shows two things, which

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: be farther apart, , or could they, how do you bake in magic into your design process?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: so I'm not going to have a really succinct answer, because I think there's lots of ways.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: we [00:24:00] can edit.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: to think about it. I can ramble. I will ramble.

.

I think there's kind of two ways. Well, probably two ways of thinking about it., like there's magic as a sort of experience, like, you know, witnessing a trick or something and getting that kind of wow, magic feeling , when you see something really astonishing.

But then there's also just magic as a process and the process that magicians use. To come up with new tricks. , and I think we use a bit of both. , and they're both, , , they're obviously connected. So a lot of the work that we do, we really do try and have and kind of build in many what I guess people would call moments of delight, right?

And very often we use them to kind of overcome a problem to try and actually make it more desirable. , to perform some sort of action or kind of get to some point, , and kind of create , this really kind of deep experience and this sort of connection , , with what you're interacting with.

So that's kind of one thing is when you're trying to actually make products that feel a bit like magic tricks or have actual magic moments [00:25:00] in them. The other side is when you kind of think of just the process. How does a magician,, go about creating magic? , a magic trick or an illusion or a feeling and how can that be applied to design?

And I think for me, it took me ages, to kind of get my head around it. I've been doing magic since I was 11. , and , when I came to the RCA, I was doing tricks all the time. My dissertation was about magic. Every single one of my projects were called magic something.

So magic light, magic string, magic everything. But, it took me another four or five years after graduating to really start realizing, I guess, as I kind of learned about design, really, that there were many parallels and I think , we were very lucky to work with BlackBerry early on, Samsung actually as well, BlackBerry were still doing really, really well.

And we did many conceptual projects with them. And I realized that with technology. , quite often, , , there's how something works and , we got to see some amazing sort of [00:26:00] prototypes , of things , that they could do with technology at the time, , there's how something works, but then there's this sort of how something feels.

And I think with magic, , that's really what happens when you're doing a magic trick. You've got a way of making something happen, but then you've got a way that you want it to be experienced. Sort of like what's happening behind the curtain and what's happening in front of the curtain in a show.

Although I'm not revealing anything. Maybe there's other ways of performing tricks. You don't need a curtain to do it. I've got to watch out because I'm in the magic circle and I really cannot reveal anything about, , magic tricks. Otherwise I get kicked out. So, uh,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: They're

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah, no, it's really true. Well, yeah, , they're very strict about it.

, and Penn and Teller were kicked out , and it's a hot topic in the magic circle, , so I was saying that there's sort of how something works and, , behind the scenes and there's how it feels, which is sort of what's in front of you,

and I kind of find that, not always, but with technology, there's a tendency, . To really rely on the tech to do all the magic, you know, just to assume like, Oh, we've got this version of this AI or whatever it is, you know, we've got this new haptic sensor or whatever. , it's [00:27:00] going to just immediately be magical and you see it straight away.

So many of these kind of products fall flat as soon as they're kind of released because what magicians have realized that, you know, the magic isn't really, in how it's done. It's, it's actually in how it's felt. And often in magic, . You try and find the simplest possible way to get to the effect you're looking for.

So you don't want complicated tech. You want to kind of get there in the sort of cheekiest, boldest way. And from working in technology, , we've always been handed these amazing pieces of technology from different companies. , , but often the real work is in, , Not necessarily hiding the technology, but really shifting the focus on how it's going to be experienced and actually keeping that tech as far away as possible, from the experience.

And it's really interesting. , we're not saying to pretend there's no technology doing it and we're not trying to necessarily lie to people about how something's working really what we take from the sort of magicians process is more just that balancing act between how it works and how it feels [00:28:00] and where we decide to spend our time in the project 

so yeah, I think , That's the two ways, , that we could have used magic and, I mean, talk about it sort of forever.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: And there's this element of expectation. And either, sort of, Inverting it, so delivering something that is counter to expectation, gives you a sense of wonder, , or doing something that is completely unexpected. so

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: about the, the Taylor Swift bracelets at the Eras tour, didn't you?

Last time we spoke. And that's, , you knew we were going to get the Taylor Swift reference

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: you really wanted to talk about this. I thought, okay, that's, yeah, that's, yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: it's something that sort of lights up. But actually when it all came together and it was seen , as like you were a pixel of, uh, a completely orchestrated hole, actually no one was expecting that the first few times it was done and, and then that gave you that sense of, of awe. Oh yeah, that's, there's awe and delight. So everyone talks about like MPS and , experiences that delight, [00:29:00] you know, how many people actually end up with that feeling at the end of something where they're not unexpectedly given a huge wedge of cash because some mistake or delivery, I think they're very rare.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I think it's really just incredible when something, you know, appears to be more than the sum of its parts. So just , a couple of ordinary things become sort of extraordinary. And I think that's what happens in magic. You often start with something very familiar and expected, and that takes a really unexpected twist.

And, and actually I think , most of the. magical products that we've worked on and that I really love and respect, you know, , that other people have done, , often just start off with something really humble, It's a sort of, a level of thought that's gone into it that suddenly completely changes the way you perceive it.

, and, , I think there's a really good quote by magician, , Teller, who's one half of Penn and Teller, the American magicians. But he says, sometimes [00:30:00] magic is just someone spending more time on something than anyone else might reasonably expect.

, and in a way, you know, isn't that just design? I mean, that's just good design, really. And , like in many ways. Really good design is magical like just the way a pen can perfectly balance on your finger or Kettle, it doesn't drip these little things actually are really magical , and , it is just because someone's Decided that it's very important to spend a lot of time thinking about that little moment that you're experiencing

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: We always talk about designers and an intentional process of creating something that engages with what people do, what they think and how they feel. And the feeling is usually the one that's completely left to the end. It's like, Oh no, there's a mechanical do , the thinking again, that's usually under indexed. And. Yeah. Often you go through a whole process of journey mapping where no one talks about the levels of assumed knowledge. What [00:31:00] knowledge do people have of what's been or what's to come in that process? uh, yeah, apart from putting a happy smiley face on a large journey map at certain points, I'm not sure people spend as much time as they should thinking about changes in emotional state that come throughout the journey.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah. And in fact, you know, in magic, like as conjuring that the kind of magic that you would see on a show, on TV, , they do so much research it's, it's all about understanding people, , if you're going to be able to take someone to that feeling of astonishment, you have to completely understand, , how they're going to react and expect something to happen.

, so yeah, it's, really, really similar. I think the main difference is, , , what magicians do on TV and, and, and these things are, you know, it's entertainment. Whereas as designers, , we're trying to overcome some problem. We're trying to solve something, you know, we have a functional kind of goal.

And I think that's where it's really interesting. And in fact, I get really, I get really sort of, , I don't know, you can tell me [00:32:00] excited and kind of a bit, , what's the word? I don't know how I get, I get,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: You can use the P

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: what's the people, I don't know,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: very American. It's like,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: passionate, oh okay,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: And you're like,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I have, I have,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: really passionate about you. Yeah.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I'm definitely passionate, I thought, I've got a six year old, I thought it's a completely different word there, but , so I think, I

Okay.

, I think, , yeah, so, so, you know, I, I think I get really animated because I think , the worry I have with saying, Magic in what we do is that there are many companies that would say they make magical products like many and it's used a lot.

And the slight problem with magic is that there is a gimmicky, quite cheesy side to magic too, right? That everyone's sort of seen the kind of cheesy magician and These sorts of experiences they've had the kind of Vegas holography , thing and, and I think, , there's an element, that you could think of as making things magical.

It's just gimmicky and it's not really necessary. And there are many products that really are just gimmicky and not really necessary [00:33:00] that you could argue are magical. But I think what we're really interested in is. When we do try and make a moment of an experience feel magical, it's always got to be solving some sort of problem, and it's anchored in a kind of context or a need where it needs to be used.

So we worked on a project a long time ago with Samsung around older adults learning to use mobile phones for the first time. And there was some really, really tricky moments in that experience. Just yeah. Peeling the back off a phone, putting a SIM card in, et cetera. Kind of all the setup and stuff.

And it , just made a lot of sense to try and make those moments delightful because they were causing so much frustration. So I think , the really important thing with making designs, you know, moments in a design experience magical is that, , There really needs to be a need, for that to happen at that point.

Otherwise, it's just gimmicky. And I'm kind of thinking of like levitating Bluetooth speakers and these sorts of products, which, you know, you could say, yeah, they are magical. It's floating, but I don't know, actually, , , you could argue that they're magical, but they're really gimmicky.

And I, and I think for [00:34:00] me, one of the most magical products is, the apple MagSafe , power connector is just amazing because it just sits there quietly most of your life. And then it's only when you trip up on that cable and turn around and stare at it that it kind of performs its trick.

And in that moment, that is the greatest trick of, of all time because it saved your mac from kind of crashing to the floor. And, and I think, yeah, I dunno, I think it's, it's often just really thinking about. when the magic is happening,, rather than sort of what the magic is.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: MagSafe has returned in the latest generations of

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Pros, and you do wonder whether the product department saw the massive rise of aftermarket MagSafes. I know I definitely bought five of them because, , I have pulled a MacBook off by walking through the you've lost a couple of grand.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh, yeah. What? So you mean there were third party ones? Is that what?

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: got

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh, wow. I love that.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: into the USB, , C and you just mag onto those, so

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I can't believe I [00:35:00] haven't seen that. . And it's interesting because you think of, like, the touch bar on Macs, which are so kind of, you know, technologically advanced. And then you've kind of got, you've got this MagSafe thing with a magnet, which is still obviously perfectly executed and advanced in its own right.

But it's just amazing, you know, that that's come back. But yeah. Like,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: , good designers, I think need to have curiosity and annoyance in equal measure, uh, combined with agency and energy. , 

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: constructive discontent, kind of,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: being grumpy,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: that's crap, but you've got to say that's crap and it could be made better by X or Y, and then the hacks are the things that turn into actually , those next solutions, hopefully,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: MagSafe is back, maybe they listen.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah. We'll never know.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: the Samsung project , the older adults to engage with mobile phones. And that's a genius project. , I'll put a link into the show notes because I know that's featured on your website. The other project, which also is kind of an astounding special [00:36:00] project from special projects was the monster shop and that's got delight and magic in Tell us a little bit about that.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh, that's really interesting. So if, if anyone, , doesn't know, there's a one, well, many people, you know, probably won't know. Actually, you can edit that out. I don't know what I'm trying to say. No, I don't mean, basically, I just know, I'm always conscious of things being really London centric. And I kind of, I know that people get quite annoyed with just assuming that everyone is in London and talking about places in London.

, I don't know. And I think that's.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: joy of this case study is it could be portable, it could be independent.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: a, it's a thing of beauty. Don't worry about it.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Okay.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: go

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: So,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Tell us,

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Okay,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: bit about the monster shop.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: so Hoxton Street Monster Supplies is a little shop in Hoxton in London, and it's run by the Ministry of Stories, which is an amazing charity all about [00:37:00] storytelling for children. And all the kind of incredible kind of benefits that it brings, like being able to tell stories and literacy and all the things around that.

And. Hoxton Street Monster Supplies, I think it's been around for , at least 15 years, I think. It's a really believable shop for monsters, , and, and it, I mean, Google it straight away, because , it is amazing, the idea is that it's a little shop, and it's a bit like a kind of, , grocery store from the 1800s that sells products that monsters would go in and buy, but they've really, really gone far with , the lie, if it's a lie, it might be true, actually, sorry, They've really kind of , gone far with the whole illusion.

So everything about that shop, it's completely on theme. , and, and you can buy all sorts of things that, that monsters would buy. So you can buy, , you know, like crystallized unicorn tears and all sorts of stuff. It's just amazing. , and everything that you buy is contributing to this incredible charity.

, and so we had a bit of time at Christmas and , we kind of approached them. , [00:38:00] to see if we could maybe help them over a couple of weeks and kind of use the studio to do that. So, , we were asked to create some new products for them. , and there was a really nice kind of design challenge because , they often get volunteers from large organizations, like they might get, you know, 100 employees from a bank to, that come in and help for a few days to kind of do something.

So. everything that we kind of created would have to be able to be produced quite quickly and simply by people who maybe haven't done it before. And so we ended up coming up with lots of ideas for products. it's just an amazing story. They've got a really, really kind of strong visual identity. So all of that, , was already , done.

And what we ended up creating was, , coloring pens, , for monsters based on different kind of Things that monsters might like. So, , moldy things, bodily fluids, , different depths of water, blood types, et cetera. , and we also made a simple kind of candle thing that would wrap around a candle and project spooky things on your wall.

For monsters that were [00:39:00] traveling and might be missing home. And what's really interesting with that is there were lots of constraints. So, you know, we, we had to go with things that you could buy very cheaply, like coloring pencils. apply a little bit of a label to them and then package them, , in a simple way with cardboard.

, it was a really nice kind of design challenge and it was interesting for us from a , user centered design, methodology way, because we were actually designing for these fictional monsters. So we had all these, , personas and mood boards that , were monsters.

And at one point Alexa , from a studio went away because often people would just go out and do a bit of, you know, interview people on the street and just get some kind of sense check, some ideas. And she goes away, she goes away for a morning and comes back and she's got all these photos about all the monsters that she's been interviewing.

And we're kind of looking at her. We don't know who's, you know, is she ever going to , flip out of character? And she didn't at all. She had kind of find all these monsters on Brick Lane. , but, uh, but it was a really interesting project, uh, for us and, and we're hoping actually to do more with them.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: 

So

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I think it's,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: it's a great way to try and, , [00:40:00] engage with the topic of literacy.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: On a previous episode we've spoken with Judah Armani who works, in prisons looking at literacy and numeracy and education there, he found that, the best way to position Literacy and numeracy was to set up a record label because that was cool. Going back to learn how to read and write and to count was clearly not cool, but by giving us this veneer by giving it this glass and put it into a context where people could see how it could be used. When you leave, as you go out the gate, , that made it really, really palatable. It made it something that was a high kudos to engage with, a fantastic thing. And, the, the Hawks and Monsters supply shop, you've got this veneer of, well, it's kind of cool. It's kind of weird. It's kind of creepy. All the things that kids love, but it's also educational. And at the

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: around actually books are fantastic, stories are fantastic, it's a life skill and we can help you to get [00:41:00] there, even with your earwax based colouring pencils, which this is a great

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: It's really amazing and if you're listening, you really should just have a look at the website and, and buy some things because it's just wonderful.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: will be a

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: , yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: notes as ever. So we've talked about. uh, and we've talked about the joy that can be created or the awe that can be created through great magic. Let's talk about bad magic. could being a poor magician also generate value in a design context?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: By bad magic, do you mean, , kind of deceiving people, manipulating people in that sense?

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: really thought about that. I was thinking more like inept. So how could we

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Oh,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: lower the bar and encourage participation by taking something which is typically, , high skills, taking a lot of effort to try and get a state where you're perfect and actually almost like Tommy Cooper type

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say it's Tommy Cooper, yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: and voodoo.

, [00:42:00] maybe not something we've come on to yet.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah. It's interesting. And, , that's a really interesting thing. I think in terms of dropping the curtain, I remember talking to, , Daryl Bishop, who's amazing. I remember talking about magic and he was talking about how actually, you know, rather than trying to mask things and make things invisible and make them disappear, , there's a real advantage in actually, , which this happens a lot with modern technology, right?

All these features and how something works. It just held so far away from you that you have no kind of inherent idea of how something works yourself. So. In some ways, you can't really, , get the most out of it or be able to make it work in a way that you could if you actually had a bit of an idea, , as to how the underlying mechanism, , was actually arranged.

So, for example, , maybe being able to see the data going in and out of your router or, uh, to understand where to position it and all these things, because everything's sort of so obscured and abstracted. So it's quite interesting. , I think that's a, that's a really, really good [00:43:00] point. And so in a way with, I don't know if that counts as un magicking, I think it would still be quite magical to be able to see the data come from my router, but it was a really nice kind of, , idea.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: So things can still be magical, even if you understand them and the mechanics, just because of , the nature of it, the extreme nature of it. It's like, well, yeah, I know that it works, but it's magical because I couldn't do it.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah. I mean, , I think like what magic is often is a sort of silent agreement between the magician and the, spectator that they are, for now in in this bubble, we're going to decide that what we're about to see is going to be magic. And you may even know how it works, but you've got this sort of silent contract.

And I think, you know, we're talking about Apple products, but there is that sort of aura, isn't it? That, you know, when it happens on a Mac or an iPhone, it's, oh, it's just, it's just magic in a way. I think it's Darren Brown has a really good quote , it's along the lines of, you know, the magic isn't in the method, it's in, it's in the [00:44:00] mind of the spectator, like that's where the magic actually lives.

, it doesn't matter even if you know how it works, just like the magsafe connector, you know, there's a magnet. I mean, I think that's how it works. Maybe there's something else going on. But, but, , but, but, well, yeah, of course, it's probably something else. But, , , I think with that, you know how it works, but I think you can still appreciate that as a sort of magical moment because, , that's sort of the agreement you have with, , Apple products and how they kind of behave.

So, you don't necessarily need to, , hide that. , the method from, from someone.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: No, I love the quote. And we'll definitely end on that quote. And the fact that the magic happens within the mind. So it's actually, how do we consider that? When we're designing an experience or a product, how do we bring about the conditions that create that spark of magic, whether there's a suspension of disbelief or not in the mind of , the observer. brilliant.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I mean, it's really, it's also really, really difficult because often you kind of think that magic is like one [00:45:00] big thing, but it's often lots and lots and lots and lots of little things. It's sort of like, , you know, many, many tiny little, , vectors, you know, that all add up to create one sort of big feeling.

, and that's why it's so difficult to, you know, Have a magical experience because you just need to trip up once or twice. And then you don't sort of perceive the rest , as a magical thing. And you see that with that, you know, many apps where, you know, it's all going perfectly and then it just needs to go wrong once or twice.

And you know, that app will be deleted immediately and be banished from your life. , and it's really hard, for people to justify spending the time that needs to be spent on, on kind of designing these experiences to kind of get you to that state where you feel something is magical.

Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah, it's, uh, it's rarely done, we know why it's rarely done, because it takes great effort and great skill.

When we think about magic, magic's fantastic if it's done once. Often, if it's done repeatedly, it becomes better. Less magical more mundane. Maybe you can see through [00:46:00] the illusion that sort of erodes it

what are the best ways to understand, the right places to insert? Magical moments that matter.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: I think it's really important to act at the right moment. , that's really half the work, is choosing when to act, and sort of why., it's a bit like, if someone kind of does a magic trick to you, And when you're not in the right mood, you know, that's not going to feel magical when, when, when you are, it's going to, you know, I feel I'm thinking about my mom here when I was 11 years old.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: as well. Yeah, I know. I'm very lucky to be very patient and watch tricks thousands of times. But, . I think there's, there's a magician, one of my kind of favorite magicians, I really, of all time, was called Max Molini. And , I think he was performing in the sort of early 1900s.

There are just a couple of books about him. And he was this really, , short, quite kind of angry sounding magician who would wander around, you know, , he became famous because he happened to find himself on the same train as a US [00:47:00] president. And he went up to the president and he bit the button off his shirt, made the button disappear, and then rubbed the shirt again and the button appeared again.

And , this, Max Mellini was really audacious and a magician and a master of the moment. And , my favorite sort of Max Malini's story was that , he would often, , wander around with a huge block of ice strapped to his back.

And back in the sort of early 1900s, it was quite hard to get a block of ice. Like a block of ice was like a flux capacitor. You know, you could, you could kind of like, where did you get that? Is it, and we're talking like quite a big block of ice. He, and he would just wait there. He was quite a short guy with a hunched back, so he could kind of tie this to his back, and you wouldn't really notice too much.

And he'd wait at a bar, , sometimes for hours with his eyes strapped to his back, and he, he, he would only perform if the moment was just right. And , he would wait until somebody asked him to see a trick, so it would feel even more, , Impossible and impromptu. And then he would take their hat and sort of [00:48:00] flip a coin a couple of times, cover it with their hat, and then the third time he lifted up their hat, there would be a block of ice, which was just completely , mind blowing.

He sometimes did it with a live chicken as well. This is no,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: Where

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: joke.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: the chicken? In

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: where he's, he had it strapped behind his back and , he would wait for hours and there's, I think there's diary entries that they signed where he's, he says he's gone home and he's like another, another night goes by and I still didn't get to perform the chicken trick because he sort of quietly puts the chicken back into the cage and stuff and starts again.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: it's the

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: And, and

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: standing

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: there's the same chicken. Oh yeah, I think so. And he would also, sometimes in New York where he lived, , , , basically he'd be wandering with you and he would get you to name any card. He'd be going for a walk with Max Molini and he, let's say you say the Seven of Clubs, and suddenly he would say, look up ahead, look on the street, there's a card on the floor.

And And you would go and pick it up and it's the seven of clubs. It was completely mind blowing. And again, no one knows exactly how he did it, but [00:49:00] the kind of method he would probably do, would be to have 52 cards, on every intersection of the blocks around you. And actually, engineer the walk for you to end up on that card, , so that it feels completely out of the ordinary.

And you see he spent so much time, it's such an obvious solution to the trick by having 52 cards out there, but you would never imagine that someone would have taken the time to walk around all those blocks and put those cards in those places before they do the trick.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: which cards were where.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Exactly. And , like Teller's quote, you know, he spent so much more time than you could ever think possible on making that trick happen in that moment. That was the magic, the fact that he spent that time. I mean, the solution itself is quite trivial, really. And I just love that.

But yeah, there's some really wonderful books on Max Molini, actually. Yeah.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: the right point. And maybe not doing things every time. I know, you know, when I complete a task in Asana, sometimes I get a [00:50:00] magical unicorn leaping across my screen. Not every time though, which again makes that a moment of slight delight. I mean, I'm not disappointed if it doesn't happen because I've completed a task, which very rarely happens, but there we go.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah, it's true. They get it right. They get the balance right on Asana. Yeah, it's hard, but they get it right.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: yeah, understanding context, knowing that , it will get old if we do it every time, but we'll say. Putting in the hard yards of practice to prepare. It does sound very designally, doesn't it?

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: It's, it's just, it's just good design, really, really.

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: What a

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: Yeah,

steve-sdn_1_09-13-2024_141208: end. I'd just like to thank our guest Adrian Westaway, of Special Projects, for spending the time with us to talk about magic, , and magic within a design context. It's been fantastic talking to you. Thank you so much for spending time with us and we look forward to cocktails in the future.

adrian-westaway_1_09-13-2024_141208: absolutely. Thank you so much.