Cycling Over Sixty

Bikepacking 101

• Tom Butler • Season 2 • Episode 50

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This week on Cycling Over Sixty, Tom sets his sights on the exciting 206-mile Cascade Bicycle Club Seattle to Portland ride! He'll share his training progress and growing excitement for the challenge. But the journey to optimal health isn't always smooth. Tom reflects on recent conversations that have him pushing even further.

Looking to explore unsupported and beyond the pavement? Tom sits down with Brett Babb, owner of the Bicycle Hub and a seasoned bikepacking enthusiast. Brett's expertise in bikepacking and bike mechanics makes him the perfect guide for anyone curious about this adventurous cycling style. Tune in for essential tips on packing light, choosing the right gear, and getting started on your own bikepacking adventure!

Thanks for Joining Me! Follow and comment on Cycling Over Sixty on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cyclingoversixty/

Consider becoming a member of the Cycling Over Sixty Strava Club! www.strava.com/clubs/CyclingOverSixty

Please send comments, questions and especially content suggestions to me at tom.butler@teleiomedia.com

Show music is "Come On Out" by Dan Lebowitz. Find him here : lebomusic.com

Tom Butler:

This is the Cycling Over 60 podcast, season two, episode 50, bikepacking 101, and I'm your host, tom Butler. Welcome back to the podcast if you are a regular listener and if you're new. Thanks for coming by and checking it out. The podcast is my attempt to bring some information about getting and staying fit to everyone who, like me, wants to stay pedaling later in life. Before I give a brief update on my progress, I just want to point out that if you want to see others who inspire me every day, join the Cycling Over 60 Strava group. You'll find a wonderful group of cyclists there.

Tom Butler:

This weekend I do the two-day 206-mile Cascade Bicycle Club Seattle to Portland ride. I'm doing it for the second time. Two years ago at this time I would have said that I was too old to do that ride. Last year at this time I wasn't 100% sure I would be able to finish. At the time I told myself that I would start and go as far as I could go and that there would be no shame in coming up short. I was very excited when I crossed the finish line in Portland. I felt like I had really achieved something. I fully expect to finish. That doesn't mean that I know I will finish. There are still a lot of challenges in place for me this year, but I'm riding a bike that I love and it is much better suited for this kind of ride than what I was riding last year, and I am more fit and have a better cycling technique than last year, so my confidence level is quite high. I'm going to be riding with a group of people who are all under 25 years old. They include my daughter and son-in-law, and I think this is absolutely awesome. I do feel sorry for my poor wife, kelly, who has to be alone for the two days as we ride. She is very excited to see our daughter take on this challenge, but our goal is that she joins us next time. That will be very special.

Tom Butler:

I had a couple of interesting conversations this week with health professionals. First was someone helping me with healing from the small accident I had recently. Once again, I got the same feedback from this person that I get over and over again. He was very concerned with the lack of flexibility of my hamstrings. He proceeded to give me an anatomy and physiology course on how all the structures from my calves to my shoulders are being negatively affected by tight hamstrings. He stressed the impact of my hips not being able to rotate freely and how other muscles and connective tissues are impacted by this. There is simply no question about the fact that I have to take the challenge of flexibility seriously.

Tom Butler:

The second conversation I had was with Dr Wes Youngberg. Dr Youngberg was one of the first people really stressing that type 2 diabetes could be reversed with lifestyle change. His book Goodbye Diabetes was published in 2012 and presents lessons he learned from working with a population prone to insulin resistance. The conversation was like standing in front of a fire hose. Dr Youngberg has become one of the most experienced practitioners in the field of metabolic health.

Tom Butler:

I came away from the conversation a bit disappointed with just how far I need to go to reverse the years of damage I've caused to my system. However, we're going to get some specific lab tests that will be able to give me the best look at where I am currently and also help develop an individual plan for recovering metabolic function. One thing that Dr Youngberg really helped with was the plan for how to eat on the STP. I feel confident that I now know how to feed my muscles what they need during the ride and, at least for now, that is what I needed the most. I went to a new bike mechanic to get my bike ready for the STP the other week.

Tom Butler:

His name is Brett Babb and he owns the Bicycle Hub bike shop in Puyallup, washington. I don't know about you, but I am just drawn to small, independent bike shops like the Bicycle Hub. Seems like a huge challenge to keep a small shop going when you have to compete with online retailers. Brett has a focus on providing an exceptional bike service experience, which seems like the way a small shop can thrive. While we were talking, I learned that Brett loves to bike pack. I have a real interest in bike packing and I felt like he was a great person to come on and have a conversation about bike packing. Because of his interest in it and his perspective as a bike mechanic. He was very happy to come on to help others learn some things that might help them get started enjoying cycling in the way that is unique to bikepacking. Here is our conversation. I'm joined today by a new friend of the podcast. Thank you, brett Babb, for joining me.

Brett Babb:

Yeah, tom, thanks for having me, it's a pleasure.

Tom Butler:

We met recently because I brought my bike into your shop for a tune-up to get ready for the STP. If I don't do amazing, I guess we know who to blame.

Brett Babb:

I guess you can blame it on me. Sure, I'll take it.

Tom Butler:

I'll take it for you, tom. Of course I'm not being serious. I think my bike is in perfect shape for the ride. I mean, if there's any weakness it's in the operator.

Brett Babb:

Yeah, I think so. You only have like four days left, right?

Tom Butler:

Yeah, just like four days left. Yeah, I'm excited that bike. It's a different bike and I wrote it last year on a fitness bike, much more upright position. So I'm pretty excited to to be rolling with this bike. So I'll ask you a question that I commonly ask what are your earliest memories of the bicycle?

Brett Babb:

yeah, uh, my earliest memories um my earliest memories actually aren't too early.

Brett Babb:

My most fondest memories are when I was about 10, 11, 12. You know that transition between an adolescent and teenager and starting to venture further and further away from the nest. It was my first taste of freedom. That bike I don't even remember what it was, I don't remember what style it was, but I was on it and I was going. Man, you know, you know, and that is that time when you're a teenager and you got, you got things going on and you don't really know how to, how to handle it. Yet You're not prepared. But that bike was, was just my freedom. Man, get out, clear the head and just kind of forget about everything that was going on.

Tom Butler:

I love it. I hear that a lot from people, that that aspect of freedom, and I think the bicycle is a symbol for that. I was recently watching a clip of something I don't even remember what it was, but they were talking about the early days of the bicycle and how it was threatening to men because it was a vehicle of freedom for women early, early on. And so, yeah, I think it's a symbol of freedom for a lot of people. I mentioned your shop and you know you do own a bike shop and I'm curious what led you to work on bikes?

Brett Babb:

Well, getting back to you know, when I was 10, 11, 12, you know, I loved riding my bike, and my dad was not one to spend much money on on anything really. So he put a couple of tools in my hand, said I'm going to show you how to do this, and, uh, and that's going to be it. You're going to learn how, or you're not going to be able to ride your bike.

Brett Babb:

So you know with those tools. He taught me some stuff, uh, mainly how to, you know, put my chain back on, change the tube out, you know, get the chain tension properly on, like my single speed BMX bike. It really started there and I got into actual like freestyle BMXing when I was around 15. And I got my first job at a bike shop. You know, working at the bike shop was awesome because I got to talk about bikes all day, I got to work on bikes and just be around bikes. So it was great.

Brett Babb:

And I wasn't really one for the structured educational system. I consider myself a pretty intelligent person but, you know, school was definitely not going to be for me and I knew that. So since I was already in the bike industry, I put about 15 years in by now. I just stuck with the bike shop thing, put in some hard work, put in, put in some good time. I had four years where I went to the military, was in the army, came back and started working on bikes again and just stayed with it. Man Learned the ropes of the shop how to, how to run a shop, how to do orders, you know how, obviously how to to maintenance bikes, but but also how to sell bikes and just every facet of the bicycle shop. I learned and gathered, so you know.

Tom Butler:

these 15 years have came together and now the bicycle hub is a thing yeah, it's cool, you know, and I I actually like the bicycle hub as a name too.

Brett Babb:

I think that, yeah, that's great, that that was you think you know yeah, yeah like uh, is it the as a hub where everything comes together? Is it like a bicycle hub?

Tom Butler:

Yeah, I like it and I'm always interested in independent bicycle shops like yours. You're running a small business and there's a lot of elements to that. I'm wondering what you found to be the toughest part of owning a shop.

Brett Babb:

A couple of things come to mind. One thing that's always kind of been there from the beginning a tough part in owning and being a sole proprietor. I'm a one man show, I don't have anybody at the shop with me, and that's the struggle for me. It's not necessarily, you know, needing another body to get the work done, it's just having someone else or you know a couple employees in the shop to banter with and just have that shop talk.

Brett Babb:

That connection, you know, being in a bike shop for 15 years, all different kinds of bike shops you know that's something I really look forward to each day is coming in and hanging out with my fellow co-workers and just having fun at a bike shop man. You know it's like a cool hangout and it's a job at the same time. So my, my experience right now is I'm missing having someone there to just talk to during the day. And it's great when customers come in and I can, you know, give them a little time and kind of get that from them. But you know there's there's something to be said about hanging out with co-workers at work, you know, and just kind of making the time go by faster, you know yeah and I think the latest thing would be you know business is improving and I'm getting more customers.

Brett Babb:

I'm finding now the time being taken away from actually wrenching on the bike. You know customers coming in looking for parts, talking about their bike. You know that's obviously what I'm there for, but I'm finding that more and more people coming in it's taking time away from me working on the bike.

Tom Butler:

So it's just managing that time and, you know, trying to find a little little extra time, like maybe after before work, to get stuff done so that I can give attention to the customers that come in and stuff that's such a classic problem, you know, of starting a small business is that if you do good work, you're going to get busy, you know, and you're going to have a lot of time for customer interaction, and then that takes you away from doing the work it's going good.

Brett Babb:

I have, I have a pretty good balance, getting a little tougher, but I'm still able to balance out and you know, normally I don't have bikes, uh, sitting in my shop more than maybe five days, you know. So I don't have a, I don't have a big backlog, so which means I'm able to keep up on stuff, which is good yeah, when I was in there, we started talking about bike packing and oh yeah that's something that I haven't done any of, but I'm really curious about it.

Tom Butler:

I'm a little bit nervous about it because I think I like it, and then that's a whole investment.

Brett Babb:

Another yes, bike investment that I've been making A whole new genre. Yeah, it opens up to you.

Tom Butler:

I was glad that you had the experience, because I do have questions about bike packing, because you personally hit the trail, hit the road, whatever with the stuff that it takes to successfully go out on a packing trip, but also you have this technical knowledge and knowledge of bikes that comes from 15 years of being in your place. So I was really excited to be able to talk to you about this. So I'll start out with what's the most important factor to consider when planning your first bikepacking trip.

Brett Babb:

I would start off by saying I think everyone is pretty. You know, even if you're not fully into bikepacking, I think everyone pretty much understands what you have to do before you go on the trip.

Brett Babb:

You need to make sure you have everything with you, you need to make sure you have a route plan, you need to make sure you have the time, obviously. But one thing people don't commonly think about, I feel, is once they actually get out on the trail and they have everything ready to go and they're on the trail, the nutrition aspect is a huge thing that people don't understand or, I guess, need a better understanding of. I should say you know, when you're bikepacking, touring, you're doing five to eight hours a day. You know, at the least that does mean that you have to stop a lot of times to eat. You know you need to stop probably at least three times for a good meal. So you're busting out your stove, you're cooking something, you're trying to get a good, substantial meal. That's at least three times during the day. And then you're going, you know, stopping. You know 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there for like a bar or something.

Brett Babb:

You know you got a nutrition aspect, I think, the thing that people don't really plan for as much they may think. You know, I got my food when I get there, that's great, but, man, you, when you're putting out eight hours of good, solid work. You know 10, 11, 12 miles per hour average. You know, with extra 30 pounds on you, you know that adds up and people don't really expect to lose that much energy. You're burning calories just constantly, hour after hour, you know, and you do need to replenish the fuel tank.

Brett Babb:

So I think that nutrition would be probably the most important factor that probably people don't think about. You know you're already thinking of what you're packing, you're thinking of your route, but it's not actually till you get on the trail that you're thinking oh, shoot, like I got to make sure this tank stays, you know, full, or I got enough gas in here to make it, because if you don't, you know you can bonk and once you bonk you're going to have to wait a couple hours to get yourself back together. You know what I mean. So just to stay on top of that nutrition and, you know, just sustaining yourself for those five, eight hours.

Tom Butler:

One of the things that I really consider is what you're talking about. You know 30 pounds of gear, you know like adding that additional weight I mean that's a significant thing and then you're not as aerodynamic. It seems like if you're hitting a headwind, you've got the extra weight, but then it seems like you're also getting hit by a lot more wind. Is that fair?

Brett Babb:

uh, very fair to say yeah, absolutely. Um, you've got. I mean I have one, two, three, four. Right now I have like four different bags on my bike and all of those are sticking out to the side in the front on my handlebar, um, out the back. So, yeah, definitely going to catch a lot more wind with that and the and the weight is going to slow you down too. Um, so that's something to keep in mind.

Brett Babb:

Don't expect to go out if you're a road rider or even like a gravel rider. Don't expect to go out and be on par with your road or gravel rides. You're definitely going to be held back significantly. You know. That's why I was saying that 9, 10, 11 average pace is not too bad for a bikepacking trip To where, if you're on your road bike, gravel bike, you can average a good 15,. You know not too hard to do. So just not going out and like busting your butt and trying to hit that 15 average the whole way. Take it slow, you know, keep in mind you do have that weight and the aerodynamics are definitely not there for you. So just taking it back a little bit and not exerting yourself, you know, trying there for you, so just taking it back a little bit and not exerting yourself. You know, trying to be your normal fast self, yeah.

Tom Butler:

So it takes a bit of time, I guess, to think about how am I going to feed myself. It's going to be maybe more calories per hour that I'm used to burning, and you know factoring that in, and it seems like it's one of those things where a route is something that's really important to consider, you know, especially if you're going out for the first time and you're not really used to, you know, being loaded down that much. So I'm thinking about bikepacking as something that gets you out away from civilization. I shouldn't say it Uh, get you out away from okay.

Brett Babb:

Get you out, away from a bunch of people. That's why I do it, man. That's why I do it.

Tom Butler:

And so to me, that means you could be faced with more climbing. You know, if you're not really familiar with the route, then maybe you're planning to do so. It seems like, as a beginner, making sure that you're doing a good job. Route planning would be an important part of it.

Brett Babb:

Yeah, absolutely. I would say your best bet if you're just starting to get into bikepacking and you're really unsure, or you just want to become more sure of yourself. Let me go back a little bit. If you are a cyclist that can do, like an average of you know, 50 miles per ride, you know your, your stamina definitely has to be up there. But if, but if you're unsure, you want to be more sure of yourself while backpacking and you're just starting to get into it, I would find a like 50 mile route, load your stuff up and and just try to go for it. You don't, you don't necessarily have to go out that far, but I would at least just gear up like you're going out and just go for a good ride, try to do as many miles as you can. Just get a good baseline, get a good idea of what you can do with that load or in those circumstances, because things change significantly. But I guess, to answer your question, to get a better idea of of what to do or or you know what situations to be in when you're back bikepacking just go out for practice rides.

Brett Babb:

You don't need to actually go to a destination to get some experience. You can load your stuff up, go, you know, out 30 miles, 40 miles, and then come back. Okay, cool, you didn't. You didn't really do bike packing. It's not that cool, but you got the experience of having the stuff and that's and that's most of it. You know, going these extended periods with you know that weight on is is really what it comes down to and if you can, you know, feel more comfortable with that and be kind of in the comfort of your area, you know around your home, you know people can come pick you up. You're not going to be stranded anywhere. It's a little easier to ease into it if you will.

Tom Butler:

Something that goes along with route planning is navigation. How have you found it to be if you're going out someplace new? How easy is it to navigate? Are trails pretty well laid out now? Is it easy to be on a route, or do you need to have some mapping skill? Do you need to have some software that kind of assists in navigation? What's that element like?

Brett Babb:

Yeah, good question. And so I've done it both ways. I've done routes to where I just look on Google Maps and I literally find a lake or something that is far away from civilization and I will try to find a route to that lake, and it's all just Google Maps. You know the satellite view, so you can see, you know everything. And then there's routes that you know I can find on bikepackingcom or ratavistcom and those are great sources to find bikepacking paths and those ones are most of the time will be, uh, you know, marked trails pretty well kept.

Brett Babb:

Our washington has awesome trail system. Man, pretty well kept trails, marked. There's nothing that's going to really impede your, your travels. For those I'll usually do like a, I have a wah element and I can go into their website and upload a file and load it to my element, my computer, and then I can have basically turn by turn, but it's off road. So turn by turn navigation, but it's off road. So it's telling me to you know, go this way, go this way. So I do it always.

Brett Babb:

Sometimes I like not knowing exactly where I'm going or having the challenge of having to find another route. So you know, that's that's kind of challenging myself and you know, getting out of my comfort zone to like, hey, if you don't find your route, you're going to get stuck or you're going to you're going to have to stay here for the night. So you know, find your route. You know I like doing that. But then there are some routes that I just like to not have to worry about anything, not have to worry about something coming up and you just go, and those marked trails, the open trails, are great for that.

Brett Babb:

There's one more thing to keep in mind. Garmin makes this thing called inReach. It's a satellite, I wouldn't say phone, but you're able to text, you can put in GPS coordinates and it'll navigate you there. But that little in reach thing is super helpful. If you get stranded, like I said, you have to pay for a service, but you can text somebody in your preset numbers. So if you are, you know you break something and you're not coming out of there and you're deep in some woods, they can find you by a pin. But that inReach can also navigate for you too. So that'd be a good thing to have A little more spendy than the Element or a standard like cycling, computer or GPS, but it works very well.

Tom Butler:

It sounds to me it would be a good idea for me not to go out for the first time on my own. I mean, I think what you're saying about, you know, getting loaded up and doing some test drives and stuff on a familiar trail or something and just getting the feel for riding loaded down, but to be with someone who's experienced, you know, the first time you go out, that seems like that could be super valuable.

Brett Babb:

Absolutely. Yeah, when I first started bikepacking, I had no idea what I was doing. I I didn't have any bags on my bike. Um, I had a backpack and that was it. Man, you know, pretty much like 40 pounds on my back and I'm just heading out not really knowing what I was doing, you know. And, uh, eventually, yeah, some people were like, hey, man, you know you can get bags on bike and you know you don't have to have any weight on you. It's great. And I was like, okay, great. So you know, for that aspect of you know, knowing what to do and how to do it or how to do it better, that'd be great. And then, also, like the navigation, just knowing how to deal with certain, or having, I guess, being with somebody that knows how to deal with certain circumstances, that's invaluable, yeah.

Tom Butler:

You have a bit of an advantage that I wouldn't have, and that's that you repair bikes all the time, and so if something goes on when you're on the trail, you're far more prepared to handle that than I am. I'm wondering you know, from a perspective of anybody you know starting out, what are some repair skills that you have to have if you're going to do this?

Brett Babb:

Let's put it this way If your chain breaks or if your derailleurs go out, you can still roll right. You can use gravity if you have it and you can maybe get somewhere. However, the same cannot be said if you break a tire or, you know, pop a tire or you slice a tire or you don't have any tubes or patch kits to patch your tube. So I would say, in general, just tire and tube maintenance and mechanics are probably the most important thing at a base level. You know, if your, if your tires or tubes are damaged, you're're not rolling anywhere. So getting that fixed and rollable is your main concern or, I guess, your thing that would be best for you.

Brett Babb:

There's patch kits, obviously, to patch tubes. There is tire boots, which not a lot of people know about, but they're super handy. It's a 4x2 vinyl adhesive like a 3M clear strip that'll go inside of the tire in case you do have a slice. You know if you have a big enough slice, once you put a new tube in, your tube will pop out of that slice or the hole, whatever it is. So putting a boot on the inside to keep that tube from pushing out could be a huge savior for you. You know, if you do have a slice in your tire, putting a new tube isn't going to do much for you. So you're. You know if you, even if you have a million tubes, you're, it's not going to help you much. So tire boots and tube patch kits are probably the most important thing. And it's such a a rudimentary fix.

Tom Butler:

A while ago I was watching someone. I kind of followed his trip across the US, and he was out in some place quite a long way from a bike shop and he was duct taping his wheel, his tire, every morning, yeah, and that was what was keeping him rolling. Yeah, and by the end of the day, it was shredded. Yeah, and so I think he did that for three days, but he was like duct taping his tire.

Brett Babb:

Yeah, you got to do what you got to do, man, duct tape would definitely work as, like I was talking about tire boots, duct tape would definitely work as a tire boot. You know, yeah, use what you have. You know there's a million things that could help you out if you look at it that way. But you know, if you're not looking at that the way, it's not going to help you out.

Tom Butler:

So right, duct tape, yeah, fix all you're saying boot, which in my mind sounds like something that like goes over you know something, but this is, this is a liner. Is that a right way to say it?

Brett Babb:

yeah, I would say. Uh, I would say it's. It is more like a patch, probably so four, four by two inch vinyl. It's probably 0.8 of a millimeter or a millimeter thick, so it's gonna hold that tube from popping out. But it's just literally like a sticker, basically, and you just peel it off and then stick it on the inside of the tire.

Tom Butler:

So that's not something, that's not something you put on as prevention. That's something that you do if you've, if you've slashed a tire or something.

Brett Babb:

Correct. That's a yeah Once. Once. Something has already happened. Now there are liners that you can put in there as preventative measures. They're called tire liners. Those do help. Those are like a vinyl material that goes between the tire and the tube and that definitely helps from punctures. You can put them on any bike. Any application will work, but those will definitely help too. I mean that's you know, if you can put one of those in there before your bikepacking trip. Tire liners are cool, they help.

Tom Butler:

On November 16th the last year I had someone from the Adventure Cycling Association on and got to hear about the history of that organization and that was really cool People loading down bikes and getting out there. It's gone on for a long time and I'm thinking that you know I don't look at that stuff typically when I'm a bike shop and looking at other things but I'm thinking there must be a lot of equipment that has evolved over I don't know 50 years or whatever that people have really gotten more into loading their bike down and getting out and exploring the world, kind of self-contained. So I'm thinking that you're in a position to see that innovation and I'm guessing that there's just been a lot of innovation over the years. Is that right?

Brett Babb:

There has. The one thing I've noticed in regards to that is the materials used for these bags and everything. Textiles have come a long way, especially in the past 15, 20 years. I mean, we got some really lightweight, waterproof, rip-resistant materials. So in that respect, yes, bags have come a long way. You can fit a lot of stuff, a lot of heavy stuff, in these bags that compact and compress. So, yeah, bags have made bike packing one possible, but just kind of endless possibilities with it as well. You know you can pack up anything you need and get out there and sustain yourself, you know. So, having that freedom, you know again, with the freedom thing, you know, having the freedom to be able to do that and go out and just be disconnected for four days, that's that to me that's super valuable, you know, and bags have definitely made that possible.

Tom Butler:

There's a lot of other things too. You know sleeping pads and you talked about cooking. You know stoves and and all that stuff. Do you think there's been an evolution of bike packing gear that's that's different from backpacking, or do you think it's kind of a lot of the gear and the innovation has been the same for both.

Brett Babb:

I would say that, for the most part, most of the stuff comes from backpacking. I get a lot of my stuff from REI. I think where it gets more specific into bikes would be like the bags, of course, and how those attach to the bike itself. But I utilize a lot of backpacking-specific items that I get from REI or my distributor, qbp. They have a lot of backpacking stuff as well, but I would say we do borrow a lot of gadgets, gizmos, stuff from the backpacking community.

Tom Butler:

It does bring us to the heart of it, which is the bike. I mean, obviously, if you're bikepacking and you're on a bike, how would you choose the right bike for bikepacking?

Brett Babb:

Yeah, that is a loaded question and you know I will expand on this a little more. But I would say at the base of it, personal preference, and I will go through each one and kind of give you a spiel on all of them. So one end you have, say, your mountain bikes, full suspension or hardtail, those are fully capable, they're already mountain capable. So you throw some racks on them, they can definitely hold it, they're robust, and then you load up and go out. The drawback to having a mountain bike as a bike packing bike is they're a little heavier, a little more cumbersome. I guess it really doesn't matter too much when you're throwing 30 plus pounds on it anyways. But another thing to think of, in addition to being cumbersome, is that you do have suspension. So that suspension it does take away from your pedaling efficiency. You get a lot of sag. They've done a great job in modern geometry of getting rid of a lot of that bob that you get while pedaling. But it does take away from your efficiency. And having the wider tires, you know you get more control but it does hold you back again. So that would be mountain bike style as far as like a touring, like a steel frame touring bike. That's what I have. Personally, I love the steel touring platform because it's so robust, steel is real, you can load it up and it's going to hold for you. You know, one big difference between all of them would be like the geometry mountain bike geometry. It will be depending on the mountain bike. It'll be kind of more suited for downhill riding, so going uphill you might be held back a little bit to where it's like a touring geometry, you know it's it's meant for touring, so it's meant to go distance, uh, meant to climb and to go distance. So you're good there.

Brett Babb:

Uh, some people, some people do bike pack on like gravel bikes, which is uh acceptable, absolutely depending on the material. You might be held back on how much you can load up. But that does bring me to my kind of last, last talking point would be the material. You have steel, aluminum, three most common. I'll stick with the three most common steel, aluminum and carbon.

Brett Babb:

You know, like I went over with my steel frame super robust it's, it's really heavy, I won't lie to you, it's heavy, uh, and I'm adding weight, more weight to it. But it it's really heavy, I won't lie to you, it's heavy and I'm adding weight, more weight to it, but it's. It's robust. I can. I can run over anything. I can hit rocks with my 30 pound load on and it's not going to do much with a carbon frame. You know it's a lot lighter than a steel frame, so you're going to be more efficient. Even with your load you'll be more efficient. But carbon can only have so much of a load on it until it's not structurally sound anymore. So you're kind of held back on how much you can load up.

Brett Babb:

But not only that, but also kind of the. You know the riding and the jolting that occurs when you're bike packing. You know you're doing like more off-road bike packing you're doing. You know you're going over bumps, rocks, everything and you have to think when the weight goes down and you G out all the weight on the bags are essentially putting more weight on whatever they're connected to basically. So if you have, like, a stinger bag that hangs off of your seat post, if you hit a bump, it's going to put more weight on that seat post, whereas if it's a carbon, you could potentially snap it. Or if you have a rack that attaches to the seat stays, your carbon can potentially snap.

Brett Babb:

So carbon is a great material, maybe not so much for bikepacking, but it definitely does have its place. And then aluminum you kind of get the best of both worlds. It's a lightweight material. You definitely are going to feel a lot more of the road shock or whatever's coming up from the road as far as vibrations, but it is a lightweight material and it's kind of in the middle as far as like robustness. You know what it can withstand as far as load and riding. I would sum all that up by saying personal preference and it depends on probably what you are going to be riding most as far as terrain elevation. But all those things would go into that personal preference of geometry, weight and material, all those things. You'd kind of look at your routes and what you want to do and kind of narrow it down on one bike. I don't have an answer on the best one, but to each have their advantages and drawbacks, if you will.

Tom Butler:

Well, well, I think it's very interesting that you talk about your preference as being steel. What do you have? By the way, I'm curious what?

Brett Babb:

yeah, um, I have a specialized sequoia steel frame, carbon, nice carbon fork and that, that carbon fork, does do a lot of work. Uh, as far as like deflection, I've ridden bikes with like steel forks, aluminum forks, carbon man. Definitely it dampens a lot of the road shock. Not only that, but on some of the bigger, like rocks or something that you hit roots and stuff, it'll give a good give, a good amount. And I've given that bike with that carbon fork a good workout. You know, in tiger mountain, uh, raging river, I've taken it up there where probably shouldn't have been, uh, or at least riding that as hard as I was. That bike holds up. I do some pretty aggressive riding on it and I've loaded that thing up with a lot of stuff and dragged it over logs and over rocks and all that and it's held up. It's still, I feel, just a more utilitarian material in general, and utilitarian is the name of the game when you're, when you're bike talking.

Tom Butler:

Well, unfortunately, my son-in-law is a mechanical engineer, his name's Garen, and we did an episode a while ago on maybe not carbon fiber. We both ended up getting carbon fiber specialized bikes and yeah, I can't imagine I. I mean, I don't want to diss anybody, but if I'm going bikepacking, I'm not doing it on a carbon fiber frame yeah, I mean good on you if you want to do that, but uh, for me, I'm eliminating carbon fiber as an option for a. Yeah, we're a bikepack, packing bike yeah, and that's why I went.

Brett Babb:

You know, total opposite end of the spectrum, you know it's uh, I value integrity over less weight. If you will, I gotta know that my stuff is gonna last when I need it, you know, and as long as it lasts, and steel will definitely give that to you. The carbon um, there's some great carbon out there, but I don't know about bike packing yeah, you talked about bags.

Tom Butler:

We we talked about some of the technology, what are like a must-have setup as far as bags and accessories good question, I would say, for bags.

Brett Babb:

When it comes to bags, it's a personal preference as far as what bags you want to Renton, I think it was about 250 miles and one of those days it was raining all day. Eight hours in the saddle, raining all day, literally. I had my rain gear, thankfully, and I had bags that were waterproof. You know, the last thing I would have wanted that day, after eight hours of being in the saddle soaking wet, is to get to my destination and all of my stuff be wet too. You know it's. You know, by the time you get to where you're going depending on you know how the day went, it's, you know, maybe five, six o'clock in the afternoon and your only thought is I need food, I need some water, I need to clean myself and I need to get ready for tomorrow, you know, and and having to worry about wet clothes, wet, wet stove, wet, you know, food, that'd be the worst case scenario, man, when you're trying to just get ready for the next day. You know. So I would. I would say whatever configuration you want to go with, and we can go over that a little bit too, but just make sure that the bags are, have great waterproof properties and you know it's a good, reputable company, I would say.

Brett Babb:

As far as configurations, you know, like I said, I have two fork mounts on each leg of my fork. Those have two dry bags. I want to say each of those is about 10 liters each, so that's 20 liters altogether. I have my handlebar roll on top of my handlebars. That has my sleeping pad and my sleeping bag together and I just compress that thing, get the, get that thing super small and sits on there roughly. When that's compacted with all my stuff in there, I'd say that's about 15 liters. So we're at 35 liters now.

Brett Babb:

And then, uh, with my stinger bag, my bag that goes underneath the saddle and hangs out about a foot, that's a 16 liter. So we're looking at what are we at now? About four, 50, almost about 50 liters. So that'd be another thing to keep in mind is the capacity that your bags have. I need you know it sounds like I need about 50 liters capability of carrying all my stuff. That's about for a four day Integrity, waterproof capabilities and capacity.

Brett Babb:

Uh, you know, cubic, cubic inch capacity, um or liter capacity, but probably the main, main important things. And then you know, your configuration is all on you. That's the cool thing about bike packing is. You know you want to have a rack and pannier set up cool. You want to do a frame bag and a stinger bag cool. You know you can. Just you can do whatever you want and the possibilities are endless these days, you know. Getting back to that earlier question of like the industry just exploding with bike packing products, there's endless possibilities of racks, bags, anything that you can think of. Now you know they're making it and it only makes our job easier being out there, you know.

Tom Butler:

It sounds, if I heard you right, like you have fork bags but you don't have rear panniers.

Brett Babb:

I don't have panniers so personally, being a mechanic, I see the rear wheels take the brunt of the riding on any bike. Rear wheels take the brunt of the riding on any bike. It's just because your weight is more centered over that rear hub, you know, over that bottom bracket which is closer to that rear hub than the front. You know some weights on the front but not much, most of it's in the back. So I see all different kinds of bikes and usually that rear tire is quite a bit worse than the front.

Brett Babb:

As far as integrity spoke, tension, having enough thread to add tension if you need it the rear wheels just go out faster. So I wanted to get all of the weight kind of more towards the front of my bike and alleviate the weight from the rear just to, I guess, longevity reasons, to keep that rear wheel, I guess, more intact. And I don't have much sway with bags, especially when you're having them on a point that turns and sways. You can experience a lot of sway if you, if you don't tighten them down. But that is the trick if you tighten everything down and cinch it down really good, you won't have that sway to where it kind of like pulls you after you turn, you know if you've ever felt that, so you can. You know you can have front bags and kind of alleviate all that that deal too.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, it's kind of getting the weight off the rear wheel it's interesting the fitness bike that I had, which is a truck fx3. I really like it. I mean I like it for running around in the city I guess it's a perfect bike for that.

Tom Butler:

Yeah, it's but I did break spokes on. It didn't seem to make sense that I was breaking spokes on it so much. It seems like if you're loading something down, you know if I'm putting my 200 pounds on a on a bike and then putting another 30 pounds of gear on. It seems like there must be some wheels that are made for that kind of loading yeah, there are, so there's, so there's.

Brett Babb:

You know, with every genre in cycling right now they make rims kind of geared more towards that. I would say you know, most of your integrity of the wheel is going to come from the spokes actually. So, with that said, you can actually get like double butted spokes that will offer more deflection when pressure is applied to the wheel. So the amount of deflection would just be the give that those spokes give. With a standard let me go back because this is going to get confusing. So with a standard spoke it's one gauge all the way through and that's one solid size diameter all the way through the spoke. With a double butted spoke, you have it. It starts at a you know, say 2.0, and then it shrinks down to a smaller diameter in the middle and then at the end, where it threads into the nipple, it'll butt out again, it'll get bigger again. So the thinner portion will be a thinner diameter than the ends of the spoke, and what that, what those double buttbutted spokes allow is, is more deflection to happen. So if you're running over a rock, the straight gauge spoke will have more rigidity. It won't allow the deflection. And so you know, when you have that when you have force being applied and then you know a movable object which is more movable than a double-butted spoke, you know you have a recipe for disaster and a lot of stress is applied to that spoke, whereas the double-butted spoke, like I mentioned, it has more deflection, so it can move easier and kind of deflect away and not take the brunt of the impact or whatever it is.

Brett Babb:

So double-butted spoke would be good for a touring wheel or a bike packing wheel, and then the hoop. I would really just go for a mountain biking hoop. Dt Swiss makes some good rims. M502 is a great hoop and that can be applied to most bikes. The cool thing about bikes is that all these parts are interchangeable. So you can have any kind of rim as long as your frame will acceptable. So you can have any kind of rim as long as your frame will accept it. You can have any kind of rim on you, build up any kind of rim on that hub or, vice versa, build any hub on that rim. So you know, in this, in this aspect, I would probably go with a mountain rim with a double butted spoke with a fairly easy, serviceable, serviceable hub.

Tom Butler:

Do you think that there is a weight that you want to stay under?

Brett Babb:

Okay. So this, this is a. This subject is, I guess I could say, touchy. Okay so weight. Weight is necessary. You know, you do, you need, you need as much weight as you need. If that makes sense, the essentials are essentials and you have to have them. There are some things that you can do to minimize weight now. Now we're talking. So, to minimize weight, you can go with lightweight backpacking materials for sleeping pads. You know, sleeping pad, you can get super lightweight, maybe like two pounds, I think a pound and a half, and you got your sleeping pad, which you definitely need to get a good night's sleep for the next day, right?

Brett Babb:

One huge thing that I do is I try to plan all my routes next to a stream or some kind of water source and then I have a filtration system that I use. So I have a bag, there's a little filter that screws on top and then I just gravity feed it. A gallon of water is eight pounds and that adds up real quick. You know you can go through a gallon of water in a day easily if it's a hot day and you're sucking that water down, so carrying that water the whole way it adds up. You know that's eight pounds. And eight pounds might not sound a lot right now, but if I have a filtration system where I don't have to carry any water, I can just stop at a stream, I can stop at a lake and just filter water real quick and, you know, fill my bottle up with it and then just proceed.

Brett Babb:

That's, that's eight pounds that I don't have to carry with me. And even more if you're going, you know a place that's really secluded and you're, and you're going to be out for a few days and maybe you're not by a water source, you're going to need to carry a couple gallons of water, maybe you know. So having a water filtration system will allow you to lighten up your load significantly and still hydrate yourself. And then I guess, to answer your question as far as weight, I don't think there's a weight that's too much. As long as you just have your essentials, I can say that that ways to say it is much easier. You know some things you need and you can't do without them, and if that's what it weighs and that's what you need, then that's what you have, that's what you got and that's what you're going to pedal with, you know. But I would say generally, you know if you could stick around a 30 pound limit. That's acceptable, you know, to match your bike weight.

Tom Butler:

Maybe you know, even even do that match your bike weight. That'd be an acceptable, I guess, uh guide. Yeah, and so if I'm hearing you right, kind of pulling a few things together, that you said that the materials are out there, the, the packs, the, the pads, that all that stuff is out there that have been developed over the years to make a setup that you know around 30 pounds. It makes that possible and you might have to maybe invest a little bit more to get a good bag that is also waterproof, that the materials that they're making the bags out of. And you know, thinking that they have about the different shapes of bags, it's possible to get a lightweight set up these days.

Brett Babb:

It's very possible to get a lightweight set up. The unfortunate thing is, when you're in the bikepacking, backpacking industry, lightweight stuff costs a premium and that's the only drawback to it. Everything is out there for you those sleeping pads that I was talking about, sleeping bags that get the weight down. I carry a little stove that doesn't even weigh a pound, and then I have my fuel canisters, which are not even a pound each. So all this stuff is super slimmed down in weight and it's everything you need. You know, everything's utilitarian, but weight conscious now too. So that's, it's a. It only helps us out out there, you know.

Tom Butler:

What would you recommend as far as a kit of tools for bike packing?

Brett Babb:

Yeah, definitely your multi-tool, preferably with a chain breaker on it. Having the ability to break your chain that's the term we use in the mechanic industry, not literally breaking your chain, but the ability to push a pin out of your chain and get a quick link on there if it broke somewhere. Tool having all those tools just in case you need them, with a chain breaker on there definitely something to have in there. You know, like we talked about earlier tire boots, tire patch, tube patches, extra tubes that would definitely go in my maintenance kit as well, if you can. Cables cables for shift and cables for break.

Brett Babb:

If you can gain a little bit of knowledge on how brakes and derailleurs are reliant on cable tension, if you can get a general bit of knowledge on how brakes and derailleurs are reliant on cable tension.

Brett Babb:

If you can get a general knowledge of that, you can and you're on the trail. You can do a lot with that. Say, your cable breaks and you don't have another one or you already used one. You can take a section of the cable from the shifter and put it in your derailleur as such to make it sit on a lower, a bigger cog in the rear, because once you lose your tension on your derailleur. It's going to go all the way down to the high and then you're you're going to be slow pedaling, you're not even going to be able to pedal. So, being you know, having knowledge of how that tension works and being able to maybe get it on a gear and leave it there so that you can get out of there you know, having cables on hand might help, but also, like the uh, the knowledge of knowing how to do this stuff.

Brett Babb:

It doesn't help if you have everything but you don't know how to use it, and that's more than half of it is knowing how to use it. So just getting familiar with putting a tire boot on putting a tire patch, on changing the tube out, all that stuff the knowledge, as well as having the capabilities of doing that. I think the knowledge is very important too, obviously.

Tom Butler:

I think that's another thing about finding someone to ride with If you're new to it, finding somebody that's got experience, or getting connected with a club. I don't know if there's bikepacking specific clubs, but I'm guessing that any bike club would have a group of people that are interested in that yeah, I think in general, people you know want to want to know how to work on their bike on a basic level.

Brett Babb:

You know I get a lot of questions and um, you know, can I watch you work on my bike? Sure, like I don't have any problem with that, that's totally cool, man. Um, you know it's you can't learn much from watching. You can get a pretty good idea and maybe you know know where to go from there. But you know, youtube videos are your best friend when starting to work on bikes and also just working on your bike in general.

Brett Babb:

You know, if it's time for a tune-up for you, I'll tell customers this if it's time for a tune-up for you and you want to tinker on your bike before you bring it to me, you know, try to try to do a tune up yourself. You know what's the worst that's going to happen. You're going to make more work for me. That's whatever I, that's my job, you know. So, taking your bike in your own hands and kind of just just feeling it out, you're, you're probably not going to break anything. That's, you know, going to render the bike useless or something that I can't fix. So just go crazy, watch some videos, try to tinker with it and just try to get the skills down and then bring it to me and I'll get it all tuned up for you. But I think just getting that hands-on experience, rather than just watching, but also watching in addition to getting that hands-on experience, I think is beneficial for people.

Tom Butler:

I love that. Well, anything that you can think about that I've been asked. Yet is there some final word of wisdom as far as bikepacking is concerned?

Brett Babb:

don't stop pedaling. If you, if you don't stop pedaling, you won't stop in general. And you know, my dad always told me, you know he's, he's, he's over 60 and he's still playing softball nationally and, um, you know, I'm just like dude. I see guys over 60 hitting 70 and they're, they just can't move. How do you move? Like you're just, you're a shortstop, you're all over the field. You know, he's just crazy and he's like man, I just don't slow down. He's like you can't slow down. Once you slow down, you're just going to seize up, don't slow down. So I take that and you know, apply that to the bike man, if you don't stop pedaling, you won't stop. And so whatever challenges may come your way, you know you're definitely going to have challenges.

Brett Babb:

There's been bikepacking trips where I'm sitting there halfway into it I'm like what in the hell am I doing here?

Brett Babb:

Why am I doing this, pulling my bike loaded up, you know, 60 pound bike over logs, over rocks, and I'm just like this path is not what I thought it was going to be, like let's just I'm just going to turn around, but really stopping and telling yourself you know, if you don't do this, you're never going to do it. You know like you're sitting in some pain and some discomfort right now, but get through it and, uh, I guess that would be my best piece of advice. There's going to be things that are going to get in your way and there's going to be things that are going to hold you back and you're going to not feel like going, but once you get to the destination or your, you know your ride is done, it'll all be worth it. You know, and it's just uh, don't get discouraged. It can definitely be discouraging, especially if you're going to a place that's unmarked and you know you're wondering what the heck you're doing out there. So stay with it.

Tom Butler:

I love that and I think that is so vital. You know, to have a mindset that I'm going to keep going. You know, and I think that is the mindset of increasing your fitness over 60 is I'm going to have the mindset that I'm going to keep going and it's at time it's going to be. It's going to be difficult to break away and make time to do things. It's going to be difficult to break away and make time to to do things. It's going to be difficult physically. If there's anything that I've learned talking to people on the podcast, there's so much value in in keeping going definitely.

Brett Babb:

I mean, the thing is is it's too easy to stop. All you got to do is just sit there, you know, and and it's easy, it's easy. But you know, if you, for me, anyways, if I want to be able to look at myself, and you know, know, I'm, know, I'm doing good in life, in whatever aspect of life, you just got to keep going and you don't give yourself the chance to stop. That's not an option, you know. You just keep going. So, yeah, absolutely.

Tom Butler:

Brett, I appreciate so much you coming on and I'm glad we got to meet. I am glad that I found a local bike mechanic.

Brett Babb:

Yeah man. No, definitely it's. It's good to be in the Puyallup area for the people, man, there's not much out there, so I'm, I'm, I'm glad you came in and glad we met, and this is a really cool podcast, man, okay.

Tom Butler:

Thank you. We met and this is a really cool podcast man. Okay, thank you. We'll have to uh figure out how to uh maybe inspire people in other ways to get out there and do some bike packing. So, yeah, maybe in a future season I'll feature a bike packing trip and and maybe that would.

Brett Babb:

That would be rad, man. We can get some people together and do our thing, you know.

Tom Butler:

That'd be nice.

Brett Babb:

That would be awesome. I'd be down for that.

Tom Butler:

Again, thanks for coming on. Thanks for taking the time. The bike shop is called the Bicycle Hub. It's in Puyallup and look it up. If you need something and you're in the area, give Brett a call and set up a time to come in. So thanks, brett, for coming on.

Brett Babb:

Yeah, thank you, tom, I appreciate it.

Tom Butler:

We'll talk later.

Brett Babb:

All right, take care, sir.

Tom Butler:

Bye now.

Brett Babb:

Bye.

Tom Butler:

That conversation with Brett has definitely heightened my interest in bikepacking. The idea of being completely self-sufficient and out there with just your bike and the essentials that is incredibly appealing. It sounds like a chance to truly disconnect and experience nature in a whole new way. However, I'll have to admit the gear aspect is a bit daunting. It's a whole new investment. I'm going to look for a way to dip my toe in the water a bit before having to fully commit to it. Please share any experiences you've had with getting started in bikepacking or any of your exciting bikepacking adventures. You can find my email and the show Instagram link in the show notes, and the best way to share is to join us in the Cycling Over 60 Strava Club. That way, others also benefit from your perspective and have a chance to weigh in. Whether you are riding through streams on a bikepacking trip or navigating an urban wilderness, I hope you are fully enjoying your cycling and remember age is just a gear change Bye.

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Tom Butler

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