Certain Success™ Podcast

How A Committed Focus on Giving Brings Amazing Results in Business with Bob Burg

August 08, 2023 • Matt Fagioli • Episode 15

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What sets apart truly successful entrepreneurs in the business world?

Well, get ready to uncover the answer as we take a deep dive into the powerful principles that can make all the difference.

Joining us for this captivating episode is the incredible author, Bob Burg, whose book "The Go-Giver" has touched the hearts and minds of countless individuals, including myself. We'll be diving into the premise of the book, the five key principles it covers, and how embracing a giving mindset can revolutionize your business.

Don't miss the chance to gain insights from Bob’s expertise and transform your business approach!

Specifically, this episode highlights the following themes:

  • The genesis of "The Go Giver" and its co-authorship
  • The five powerful principles of "The Go Giver"
  • Building influence through placing others' interests first

Links from this episode:

Bob Burg [00:00:00]:

Giving and receiving are simply two sides of the very same coin, and they work in tandem. This is universal law. We plant before we harvest. We sow before we reap, we give before we receive. And as long as we understand that and we're focused on the giving of value to everyone whose lives we touch, now we create that benevolent context where we're able to receive. We need to be willing to do that.

Matt Fagioli [00:00:34]:

Hey, guys. Welcome back to the certain Success podcast. I'm your host Matt Faggioli, and today's conversation is absolutely incredible. One of my favorite interviews that I've done so far on The Certain Success Podcast, it's with Bob Burg, who wrote an amazing book called The Go Giver. And if you're in any kind of sales, any kind of entrepreneur in business at all, or just breathing oxygen on this earth, this book is for you. It's going to help you understand the right approach to sales, the right approach to building business relationships, and really it could just about work for anybody. So super pumped for this conversation. So here we go for my conversation with author Bob Burg. Hey guys, welcome back to the Certain Success podcast. I'm your host Matt Faggioli, and today I have the honor of interviewing an author whose work I have fallen in love with, that I'm incredibly excited to have the opportunity to talk with. I read a lot of books and I don't always get the opportunity to go live and really talk to the author. But I love this book from Bob Burg called The Go Giver. And of course there's a whole series of books now and we're going to dig into that in this short interview. But thank you so much, Bob, for being here and welcome to The Certain Success Podcast.

Bob Burg [00:02:06]:

Oh, my pleasure, Matt. Thanks for having me.

Matt Fagioli [00:02:09]:

Well, let's just dig right in. Bob, your book is incredible. I had not heard of it before, but picked it up and devoured it. I've been through it three or four times now. But can you talk just about the premise of the book and how you arrived at it and just tell us the whole tale?

Bob Burg [00:02:28]:

Yeah, it's a business parable co authored with John David Mann, who's a fantastic writer and really he was the lead, just he's just brilliant. And I'm a how to author, so I'm basically step one, step two, step three, the boring stuff. And John and, you know, had this idea know, bringing a set of principles to the world that is not original in any way because they've been around since time immemorial, for as long, I suspect, as there have been market based economies. These are the principles that successful people have tapped into, some knowingly and others not knowingly, just very intuitively. And so in our studies of success, both of us have been entrepreneurs. And John is a longtime writer, magazine publisher. He got to meet some of the most successful people in the world. As a speaker, I've gotten to share the platform with some of the most successful speakers, and we both ask questions all the time and make a study of success. So it was actually pretty simple once we got together, to just sort of outline what are those things that successful people do, sustainably successful people. So the Go Giver, which is a parable, is about a guy named Joe, who's a good guy. He's a young, up and coming, ambitious, aggressive salesperson means well, but his focus is really in the wrong place. It's on him and it's what people owe him and it's what he write and it's about his quota and about and he learns a lesson. And this is basically the premise of the story that shifting your focus. And I think that's really where it all begins, Matt, shifting your focus from getting to giving. And when we say giving in this context, we simply mean constantly and consistently providing immense value to others, understanding that doing so is not only a more pleasant way of conducting business, a more fulfilling way, it's also the most financially profitable way as well. And not for any kind of way out there woo woo, magical, mystical type of reasons. Oh, just give. No, not at all. It's actually very rational. It makes logical sense when you're that person who can move your focus off of yourself and place it on serving others, discovering their needs, their wants, their desires, helping them to solve their problems, helping move them closer to happiness, if you will. People feel good about you, they feel great about you. They want to get to know you. They like you, they trust you. They want to be in relationship with you. They want to be part of your life. They want to tell the world about you. They want to be your personal walking ambassador. So that's really the premise.

Matt Fagioli [00:05:16]:

Well, I love how incredibly practical it is. So there's all of these cliche phrases that we all have heard a million times about building relationships and putting that over the transaction and the sale and all of that. But then I think people come away and go, well, how do I actually do that? What does that look like? And you've just made it so incredibly practical, so thank you for that. And I'm a career salesman my whole life. I've been an entrepreneur and a salesman for 35 years. And one of the things that with this amount of gray that I recognize in myself is that it's not a linear path, it's more like a daily. I need to remind myself to return to the right path. And the certain success podcast, we say, is about the intersection of business and faith. So I always bring kind of a faith approach to how I look at business and life. It ties so well together with the Go Giver story, even though that's not really where you guys go with it, but I want to dig into Faith and some other pieces with you. But before we do that, can you just kind of walk us through quickly through the five principles that frame the book?

Bob Burg [00:06:37]:

Sure. The principles themselves are the laws of value, compensation, influence, authenticity, and receptivity. Law number one is all about the experience you provide for the buying experience, right? The customer experience. How do you make them feel at every point from the time you first meet them through the follow up and follow through, the relationship building process, the selling process, the referral process? What kind of experience do you give them? How do you communicate that excellence, consistency, attention, empathy, and appreciation. So that by the time they do business with you, Matt, they feel they know they have gotten much more in value than what they paid in price. While, of course, you make a very healthy profit, and of course, there's a big difference between price and value. Price is a dollar figure. It's a dollar amount. Value is the relative worth or desirability of a thing, of something to the end user or beholder. In other words, what is it about this thing, this product service, concept, idea, what have you, that brings so much worth to another person that they will willingly exchange their money for it and be grateful, feel glad that they did? I like to bring up the very easy, simple example of an accountant you hire to do your taxes. She charges you $1,000. That's her fee or price. But what value does she give you in exchange? Well, she saves you $5,000 in taxes, saves you countless hours of time, and provides you and your family with the security and the peace of mind of knowing it was done correctly. So she gave you well over $5,000 in value in exchange for $1,000 fee or price. You feel great about it, and she does as well, because it was worth it to her to exchange her time, her energy, her knowledge, her wisdom, and so forth for that $1,000. In fact, in any free market based exchange and when I say free market, I simply mean no one's forced to do business with anyone else. In any free market based exchange, there should always be two profits, the buyer profits and the seller profits, because each of them come away better off afterwards than they were before. But here's the key. This happened not because she was focused on the fee. She was focused on the exceptional value she was providing you. The fee was simply the reward. This is why John David Mann and I say that money is simply an echo of value thunder to values. Lightning, meaning the value must be first. That must come first. That must be the focus. The money you receive is a natural result of the value you've provided. Law number two is the law of compensation. And this says that your income is determined by how many people you serve as well as how well you serve them. So where law number one says to give more in value than you take in payment, right? Law number two tells us the more people whose lives you touch with the exceptional value you provide, the more money with which you'll be rewarded. So law of value represents your potential income. Law of compensation represents your actual income because it's all about how many people's lives you impact. So could say exceptional value plus significant reach equals very high compensation. Law number three, the law of influence says your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people's interests first. This sounds counterproductive when you first hear it, right? Maybe even Pollyanna ish. But then you think about it. The greatest leaders, top influencers, most sustainably profitable salespeople. This is simply how they run their lives and conduct their businesses. They always have the other person in mind. Right? Now when we say and I want to qualify this if I may, Matt when we say place the other person's interests first, we don't mean you should be anyone's doormat or a martyr or self sacrificial in any way. Absolutely not at all. It's simply, as Joe the protege learned in the story from several of the mentors, the golden rule of business of sales is that all things being equal, people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust. And there's no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit those feelings toward you and others than by genuinely moving from an I focus or me focus to an other focus looking to as Sam, one of the mentors in the story, advised Joe make your win all about the other person's win. London before the law of authenticity says the most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. Well, Deborah, one of the mentors in the story shared a very important lesson she learned. And that is, all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, people skills and you've been a salesperson your life like I have been. We know those are very important, but they're also all for. Not if we don't come at it from our true authentic core, but what we do, right, when we show up as ourselves day after day, week after week, month after month, people feel good about us. They feel great about they feel comfortable with us, safe with us. Why? Because it's that consistency. People want to make it's human nature. People want to make sense of their world in a world that often doesn't make sense. They want to be able to understand their world. So when you come at it as you all the time, they feel very confident. Now, that said, I also want to just suggest that I think and I've noticed this more with the advent of social media over the last maybe 1015 years. It seems as though the word authenticity has gotten sort of taken out of context and now it's become, well, have no boundaries. Say or do whatever you want because that's authentic and as long as you're I disagree with that. That's sort of like the person who says, well, I have anger issues and I yell at people a lot, and if I were to act any differently, that wouldn't be authentic of me. That's baloney, right? What it simply means is this person has an authentic problem that authentically work on in order to become a better, more authentic, higher version of their authentic self. So we don't want people to take authenticity as an excuse for not growing. My definition of authentic is very simple, and that is acting congruently with your values. When you do that, you're authentic. And then law number five is the law of receptivity. This is kind of the one that brings it all together because we've got value, compensation, influence, authenticity. All that is about what you're giving. Well, law of receptivity says the key to effect of giving is to stay open to receiving. This is nothing more than understanding that, sure, you breathe out, you've also got to breathe in. It's not one or the other, it's both. You breathe out carbon dioxide, you breathe in oxygen, you breathe out, which is giving. You breathe in, which is receiving. Giving and receiving are not opposite concepts, though. The world around us kind of gives us that message a whole lot, doesn't it? There's a very anti prosperity kind of environment out there and we need to not listen to that, right? Giving and receiving are simply two sides of the very same coin and they work in tandem. The key, though, of course, is to focus on the giving of value. I mean, this is universal law. These are laws of economic nature, human nature, physical nature. We plant before we harvest. We sow before we reap, we give before we receive. And as long as we understand that and we're focused on the giving of value to everyone whose lives we touch, now we create that benevolent context where we're able to receive. We need to be willing to do that.

Matt Fagioli [00:15:15]:

Man, that's just so incredible. Bob I spent a lot of time in my consulting and coaching business working with entrepreneurs. A lot of them are younger. And I do feel like there is something lost in the generations of understanding this kind of world we're living in. This social media, go go startup, burn the ships and nothing but results oriented society. And this is just such a refreshing conversation. There's two of the five that really got me compensation being the law of compensation being the first of those, because that's something that I understand as an entrepreneur and I guess all entrepreneurs think about. I always talk about it in terms of scale. Anytime you're trying to build a business like, well, how does this scale, how do we get this to volume? But in this context, again, you've given such incredible language to it. So can you talk for just a minute using the word scale? How do you hear what I'm saying about that?

Bob Burg [00:16:24]:

Well, depending upon what you do, you do need to be able to scale your business because it doesn't matter how much exceptional value you provide, if you provide it to one person or just a limited amount of people, it's going to be very difficult to make a very healthy living, at least on a consistent basis. So how do you scale it? Well, it depends what you're doing. We're big believers in referral based business and that's one way to scale. What are the advantages of working with referral based prospects? Well, there's a lot of them, but just four that come to mind. One, it's easier to set the appointment because you're going in on borrowed influence. Second, you can sell with a referred prospect. You can sell on high value rather than low price. Again, borrowed influence, you have that gravitas going in. When you try to sell on low price, you're a commodity. When you sell on high value, you're a resource. Right. So you don't want to get trapped into that low price game. Pretty much everyone loses, including the customer who's not able to be serviced properly because the person who has the sale isn't able to spend their time with them because they're out having a hustle on such low margins. So you want to be able to sell on high value rather than low price. Third, benefit of a referred prospect, it's simply easier to complete the sale. Why? Through borrowed trust or what we call vicarious experience. In other words, no, this person has never done business with you personally, but someone who they know, like and trust has said this is the person who'll take this is the only one you need to see. They have your best interest at heart. The company is fantastic, the product's guaranteed. He is going to make sure she is going to absolutely see to it that you are happy. Right? And then I think the fourth benefit of a referral based prospect is they're already of the mindset that that's how you do business because that's how they met you. So in their world, you meet your prospective customers through referral. You sell on high value rather than low price, you complete the engagement and you are then referred. And so long as you handle that part appropriately, you're going to be able to really build a nice referral based business.

Matt Fagioli [00:18:47]:

Before we get off of that, I want to bring up I noticed in your website and some of your coaching that you tailor some of your sessions and such directly to real estate. And I've done a lot of things in my career, but I've touched in the real estate industry a lot over the last 20 years. Can you talk a little bit about that space specifically related to referrals? But I'm also curious, just what your connection?

Bob Burg [00:19:17]:

Connection? The connection is that I've just spoken for a lot of real estate companies, firms and so forth. And so because of that, I have an idea of what they want and what they're looking for. However, when Kathy, my brilliant business partner, Kathy Tejan and I, we have these events called beyond the Mastermind, where we limit it to eight people. So it's a two day real, I mean, into your business type of thing. We always have two guest Master coaches, both of whom are very hugely successful realtors. So we don't believe in teaching something we don't know. So it's really more of a facilitation. And of course, my part is the referral and relationship building aspect that doesn't matter what the business is, but when it comes to the actual real estate, that's where we have our Master coaches that just do a superb job.

Matt Fagioli [00:20:10]:

Got you. That's incredible. Well, I've got a lot of friends in the real estate space, some of whom are going to see this podcast and I will strongly encourage them to jump in that Mastermind. That sounds incredible. Well, I want to take you back to receptivity because I think that this is the piece that I think everybody is missing. Well, you and I talked offline a little bit about my Christian worldview and how I bring to that. I guess I talk about it all the time. But a big piece of that to me in business and not in business is being open to receiving from God. That's such an important piece that everybody thinks I'm not worthy or I'm not good enough. He's not going to do that for me, whatever, and overcoming that and being willing to receive. And I think that I'm in the right space here with the law of receptivity. But can you talk a little bit more, expand a little bit more about that? And if you can bake some of the faith conversation into that.

Bob Burg [00:21:11]:

I'd love, I mean, I think however one relates to know you through your Christianity I'm Jewish. My co author, John David Mann's Christian. You know, however we do, I think, when we see God as a benevolent force, a benevolent being who has our best interests at heart, he's our father, so we're his children. To me, it only makes logical sense that especially in the world of abundance that he's created, that he would want us to thrive. Now, the way the world works, which I love this about it, is the best way for one to thrive is to help others thrive. Zig Ziglar, who was just one of the greatest of all time, right? What was his most famous saying? You can have everything in life you want if you will just help enough other people get what they mean. I think that's just a principle that has proven again and again it works.

Matt Fagioli [00:22:10]:

Well, there's that generational thing, too. I can't tell you how many times recently I've mentioned Zig's name or quote or both to an entrepreneur under the age of 40. And they're like, who?

Bob Burg [00:22:23]:

Oh, what a shame, too, because he was wonderful.

Matt Fagioli [00:22:26]:

Well, it's an important, timeless principle, but the names are gone, and your book, I think, brings a lot of that back to life.

Bob Burg [00:22:36]:

Thanks.

Matt Fagioli [00:22:36]:

So I'd like to talk about entrepreneurship. You talked in the notes that I read getting ready for this conversation about entrepreneurship and how you can be an entrepreneur in any role that you're in. And I want you to talk about that because I think that's a really important concept for people to, you know.

Bob Burg [00:22:57]:

Matt, I love that you bring that up because people do, you know, read the Go Giver. It's really about entrepreneurship and salespeople, and I think in many ways it is. But principles, like any principles, they work across the board. And whether we're talking about success in terms of financial, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional, social, relational, it works across the board. When we're talking about success, whether it's entrepreneurship and sales or working within another company, it's the principles that work, right? Strategies, techniques, tactics, they vary depending upon so someone is not an entrepreneur. Well, so they're working within another company. They're an intrapreneur. The same principles apply, for example, as an entrepreneur and salesperson, you know, ultimately you've got to please the customer. Again, that's what free market capitalism is actually all about. It's pleasing the customer because the customer is the ultimate arbiter of who gets the business, right? And I often say, and I say this when I speak at sales conferences to two salespeople, right? Say, nobody's going to buy from you because you have a quota to meet, right? Nobody's going to buy from you because you need the money. And nobody's going to buy from you because just because you're a really nice person. They're going to buy from you because ultimately they believe they'll be better off by doing so than by not doing so. And that's the only reason why anyone should buy from you or from me or from anyone else. By the same token, I'm going to say to this introvert, this person working for someone else, nobody's going to hire you and pay you a salary because you have a mortgage payment to make or because you want to send your kid to another school or because you're a really nice person, right? They're going to hire you, keep you on, pay you a salary because they believe that ultimately they are better off by doing so than by not doing so. And again, that's great. It means when you have that servant's heart, when you want to please, when you want to bring immense value. Now, this might mean that your focus is on your supervisor, the ultimate employer maybe, or your team members, or the person in the other office, the other Silo, who usually is not that forthcoming with help or information. But you're able to cultivate a relationship with that person so that the two of you are able to help each other and build and really have the company's best interest in mind. Ultimately, the customer. So I think that's really what it's all about as an employee. You might not be an entrepreneur, but you're certainly an entrepreneur. You're an entrepreneur within another organization that's so good.

Matt Fagioli [00:25:49]:

I've got a good friend and mentor of sorts that I listen to all the time that talks about being a creative minority in any environment. And that makes me think so much often of sort of someone that's working within a large organization can have a massive impact on your coworkers, on the customer, on the process of whatever role you're in. So anyway, sorry, that brought that to mind. And actually that's probably a good segue because I'm constantly seeking mentors, constantly looking to up my game in that way, if you will. And that's another piece of what I read about you and what you work on and things that were important to try to talk with you about. And so please share with the certain success audience what are the things to do and not do when seeking an entrepreneur and how do I up my game in that? Excuse me, non entrepreneur mentor and how do I up my game there? Bob?

Bob Burg [00:26:56]:

Yeah, and I agree with you. I think finding a mentor is so very important because the right mentor can cut your learning curve by years. And I think one mistake people make that I see and this isn't just lately, I've seen this for years and years of people doing that. They'll approach someone who maybe they've just met someone without a relationship there or something, and they'll say, hey, I need help. Will you be my mentor? And I think what's kind of productive about that is that it's sort of like approaching someone and saying, hey, will you share 40 years of your hard earned wisdom with me even though you don't know me from a hole in the wall, right? And it may come across to that person as entitled or just inappropriate. And the chances are if you want this person to mentor you, many others do as well. And so asking that way certainly doesn't distinguish you from anyone else. That said, I believe you can approach pretty much anyone and everyone, but you do it a little bit differently. So I might suggest approaching that person by saying, I know you are very busy and if for any reason you either don't have time to do this or for whatever reason you'd rather not, I'll absolutely understand. I wonder if I may ask you one or two very specific questions now, what have you done when asking that way? First, you approached with a respect, with a reverence. You realize it's a big ask. You don't feel entitled. Secondly, you gave the person an out or backdoor. You let them know right away that if it's something they don't have time to do or would rather not, totally. You know, again, human nature, we don't like to feel entrapped. So Berg's Law of the out or back door says, the bigger the out or backdoor you give someone to take, the less they'll feel the need to take it, because they recognize that you understand this and that you expect that. Okay? And then the third thing you did is, rather than just asking if you could pick their brain, which is general and basically sounds like wasting my time, right? Instead, you're saying, no. May I ask you one or two very specific questions? Now, this person is thinking, okay, this person knows what they're looking for, not a time waster. They have an agenda. In this case, an agenda being a positive, right? Not, oh, he has an agenda, but he has an agenda. He or she knows what they want. And so you're much more likely for this person there's no guarantee, but much more likely, the person is going to say, sure, go right ahead. How can I help you? Now, you want to make sure you've researched this person enough that you don't ask anything that you could have found out online or through other means, of course, but you want to ask your couple of questions. Don't take up much of their time. Thank them profusely. Let them know you'll put it into action right away. May I follow up from time to time just to update you on front? And they're going to say, of course, absolutely. Now, what I'm going to suggest next is that immediately upon ending the conversation, you write a personal handwritten thank you note, okay? Not text, not email, but just something that's very short and sweet. Hi, Mr. So and so or hello, Ms. So and so. Thank you so much again for taking time out of your schedule. Your advice, your counsel, your wisdom is priceless, and I look forward to applying it right away. As mentioned, I'll follow up and let you know how things are progressing. Again, many thanks. Best regards, Anya. Put it in a regular envelope. Handwrite it the address, hand stamp. It not a meter machine. Send that off right away. Make a huge difference. That distinguishes you. And then one other thing is, I would send a small doesn't have to be anything big, but a small donation to their favorite charitable cause. You can easily find that online. Or you can call and ask their administrative assistant, make a small donation in their name. It'll get back to them. You're not doing it to kiss up or anything, but just, again, to let them know, to communicate that you appreciate them, that you value them, that you respect what they have done. You don't take it for granted. And that you want to be able to in some way or another add value to them in a way that's meaningful to them because he was always in the eyes of the beholder. Okay? And so now, a couple of weeks later, a few weeks later, you might follow up, might have another question. Now if over time, a mentor protege relationship and it is just that if that's meant to develop and take hold, it will. If not, it won't. It might be that was one conversation you were going to have, one helpful conversation, or there might be two. Meanwhile there's other people who you meet who you can do the same process with, and one of those people might end up being your mentor. My suggestion is go through it like this without attachment to the results. And if it's supposed to happen in Hebrew we say Imyta Hashem. If it's in God's will for it to happen, it's going to happen. And I think when we approach it that way, we have a good opportunity to build and of course, mentor people when we're in that position to be able to help others.

Matt Fagioli [00:32:30]:

Well, that's a faith piece that we can absolutely agree on in terms of not being attached to the outcome and just the process is the path, so to speak. Well, that's incredible. So you've obviously spent a lot of time developing your understanding of that mentor process and we talk. What you just explained is sort of the mechanics of how to do it, which is I'm going to take some takeaways from. And some of it was very refreshing, as I mentioned, just the handwritten notes that had just been lost and it's a lost art and I'm a fan of wax seals and all that stuff to just sort of have it stand out. What about leveling up mentors? So one of the things that I've become enamored with in the last couple of years is obviously I've been around the block a time or two, so I'm reaching pretty high for the mentors that I'm seeking. What advice would you give me on that? And anyone listening to this, who do you pick and how high do you reach and do you proactively go seeking that person? Or are you just talking about people that cross your path or how do you see that?

Bob Burg [00:33:42]:

I think that's just an individual decision as far as how you would find those people. I'm a big believer that you keep on mentoring up, you keep on reaching up. And I've always noticed that great mentors always seem to have great mentors, right, and they never stop learning. But I think as far as seeking people out, it just depends if you have a big enough sphere of influence that you're continually developing, probably that person just ends up coming into your world, you identify them and so forth. Or you might actually go about logically looking for that person, asking people in your sphere of influence, who they know based on what you're looking to accomplish through a mentor.

Matt Fagioli [00:34:26]:

Awesome. Last question. I'll let you go. What do you see as the line between a mentor and a coach? How do I know if I should be looking for a coach or I should be looking for a mentor in a different situation?

Bob Burg [00:34:41]:

By and large, because definitions are always so important. Right. But by and large, I think a mentor tends to be more of the 30,000 foot view in a sense. There's guidance in a general way, whereas a coach is pretty much right there, going back and forth with strategies and techniques and so forth. Not that there's not crossover. I like to say they're cousins, right, mentors and coaches. But I think that tends to be the biggest difference. When I think of a mentor, I'm thinking of someone a little bit, I'm going to follow the guidance. There's not going to be necessarily with a coach, boom. There's a set time we are going to be doing work and we're going to be measuring progress and so forth. But that's just my way of seeing Bob.

Matt Fagioli [00:35:31]:

It's incredible, man. That is just 30 minutes of wisdom. Gold and I thank you again for all of your time. So how can people best find you and connect?

Bob Burg [00:35:44]:

Probably the best way is just to go to burg.com and while they're there, they can subscribe to my daily Impact email, which I send out five mornings a week. And there's all the other ways to connect with me, whether it's online, the beyond the Mastermind event and we have an online mentorship, the Success Alliance. So there's all these things, but just coming onto Berg.com and hanging out for a while, you'll probably see some things.

Matt Fagioli [00:36:14]:

Awesome them. Well, thanks again, Bob. I hope to have you back here soon on the Certain Success podcast. Thank you.

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