How can we find meaning in life? In this episode we are joined by the celebrated psychologist Dacher Keltner where we explore where meaning comes from, and how the emotion of awe can help us find it. Dacher Keltner is a professor of psychology at UCLA Berkley, where he teaches and researches in the area of positive psychology, and researches the emotion of awe. Dacher is a wonderful communicator and offers much that is fascinating, helpful and uplifting for anyone who craves a greater sense of meaning in life.
How can we find meaning in life? In this episode we are joined by the celebrated psychologist Dacher Keltner where we explore where meaning comes from, and how the emotion of awe can help us find it. Dacher Keltner is a professor of psychology at UCLA Berkley, where he teaches and researches in the area of positive psychology, and researches the emotion of awe. Dacher is a wonderful communicator and offers much that is fascinating, helpful and uplifting for anyone who craves a greater sense of meaning in life.
What we get an awe inspired by tells us like this is what I really care about and this is what I want to be part of in the story of my life, and that's why awe is here is to locate us in the grand narratives of existence.
KP:Welcome to the first episode of the second season of the Examined Life podcast. My name is Kenny Primrose and today I'm delighted to be joined by my good friend, ian Porter, where we'll be in conversation with the psychologist Dacher Keltner. Dacher Keltner is a professor of psychology at UCLA Berkeley, where he teaches on positive psychology happiness, among other things and writes and researches about the emotion of awe, something he has written an excellent book about. I think this is a really fitting episode to kickstart the new season with.
KP:A theme that runs throughout the conversations I'll be having this season is what does it mean to be positively maladjusted to a society where we're often taught to value the wrong things, and I think this conversation is a great starting point for that. So if you're interested in what it means to live a meaningful life, then I think you'll find this conversation as compelling as I did. Please do sign up for the Examined Life newsletter, where I process my thinking, and send you all the relevant links to the episode. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did Dacher Keltner. It is a joy to be speaking with you as I did. Dacher Keltner, it is a joy to be speaking with you.
DK:Thanks so much for agreeing to come on the Examined Life podcast. How can I turn it down? What a great title. So, and it's good to be with you, Kenny.
KP:Wonderful. Well, as you know, the theme of this project, Dacher, is to explore a question that a thinker such as yourself has been animated by or thinks that it might be a really helpful question to be asking ourselves. So I wonder whether we could just dive straight into that and explore what question you have been preoccupied by, professionally and or personally.
DK:Yeah, I think that you know, the question that I've really been intrigued with for 20 years, and in my science and then in my teaching, is how does the individual find the meaningful life? You know, in the science of happiness we differentiate between sensory pleasures you have a wonderful meal and you feel good and then you know social relationships and all the delights that those bring. And then, more recently, in the last five years, there's been this interest in something that's a little bit, I don't want to say deeper, but more complicated which is meaning, right, which is what really matters to me, what really brings whatever I'm doing in my life purpose, and then how does it fit in a kind of a larger narrative of life, right? And so I have been just thinking about and seeking to study and bring to our public discourse how we find meaning in life.
KP:Gosh, what a wonderful question. You mentioned the kind of academic study of happiness of which you are part, but it's a question that sounds as much personal as it is professional. Is that right?
DK:Yeah, you know, I mean, it's interesting when you, when you look at happiness and this vast scientific terrain and terrain and inquiry across all kinds of different disciplines we've been thinking about what makes us happy for a long time and you know you can find the people who love delight and aesthetic pleasure and sensory pleasure, right, you can find the people who really thrive in, you know, achievement or success. And you find people who love social relationships. And then there's this little kind of individual that really is intrigued by meaning and obsessed with meaning. And I'm one of those people.
DK:You know I love good food and I love relationships and like, but I've always, since I was a little kid, like what's, what's the whole point of this, you know, and and that turns out to be a big question in this new literature on wellbeing and and for me personally, you know it was really it's. You know I grew up without religion, I grew up in a very, almost countercultural type of context raised by, you know, kind of activist parents, artists, and my mom taught literature and they were really like, you know, it's great to feel pleasure, it's great to have the most wonderful relationships, but really always be wondering what's the point of your life, and so it is indeed, I'm embarrassed to say say, a personal inquiry as well may I ask like, so this, there's so much I'd like to go into and I'm I'm 100 with you in terms of this kind of the question that animates me what does it mean to have a meaningful life?
KP:but I suppose we could have meaning with a, with a big m, like there is a meaning to life and we are to discover it, or the kind of slightly more postmodern meaning is something we create in our lives. Are you approaching it kind of from both or one angle.
DK:Yeah, I think both are true, right.
DK:I think that you know, in some sense, evolution and the history of life on Earth has brought to the human species realms of meaning that we can find our purpose in right.
DK:Our relationship to the natural world is a fundamental source of almost spiritual meaning for humans around the world Our relationship to music, our relationship to visual art, our relationship to morality and the moral beauty of other people in all right, those things are realms that have been crafted or shaped by evolution, that we find in our, in our live lives, that bring us meaning and then, at the same time, so much of it is constructed in cultures and individuals, given our family histories and our political moment in history where, you know, I am a child, as a personal example of the late 60s, raised in a radical place, laurel Canyon, by two early counterculture parents, and I had given that history in that moment and what they taught me in the words and the concepts I had to find meaning in art and in, you know, forms of activism and going into prisons to see what is the human character.
DK:So it's, both are true and that's what's. You know, I really shy away from these Manichaean debates. It's either constructed or it's biological. Both are rich, and true and inform us how we can find what matters to us.
KP:It feels like this question of meaning is especially pertinent right now. I've become aware of various people John Vervaeke or Jonathan Rousen talking about a meaning crisis. We're in a kind of crisis of meaning at the moment. Does that? Kind of occur to you as well Is that kind of occur to you as well, is that?
DK:Oh, you know, I. You know, if you just take the United States and perhaps the UK and Western Europe, look like this you know, just historic rise. And I teach young people, right, who are on their quest for meaning. I've taught them for 33 years. You know I have 660 Berkeley students in my happiness class really pursuing what is meaningful to them.
DK:And you know, there are all these forces that have led to a meaning crisis, right, the de-churching of young people. They're moving away from ritual and dogma, if you will, for a lot of good reasons, but they don't have that. The breakdown of intergenerational contact and community, the. You know, the. I think one of the real shortcomings of the new technologies, the smartphones and digital platforms, is they're. They're flat, they. They are flat temporally. They only engage us in the present moment. They are flat temporally. They only engage us in the present moment, self-focus, where we've lost sight of the deeper meaning to our lives and, as a result, the meaning crisis is real.
DK:You know, in the United States, the opioid crisis is a crisis of meaning, you know, and that's one of the central killers of young people today. That's one of the central killers of young people. Today, the suicide crisis, which is at historic highs for young people, is a crisis of meaning. Depression historic highs in the United States is a crisis of meaning Polarization. You know, like why a person would look at Trump and think like, this guy is a reasonable steward of a democracy. That's a crisis of meaning, right, we've lost the big narratives of our lives and we've lost our pathway to what we find meaningful. And it's interesting, you know, just to like the crisis in America. You know people are no longer enrolling in courses of the humanities literature, history, art, history. I asked my undergrads today, why would the Holocaust have ever occurred? And they're like, remind me of what that is. So we have a lot of work to do to restore meaning.
KP:It feels. Here too, the humanities are declining and as, as our cultures become, I think, more technological, um, it's, it's not an accident, it's not just like the hand of society. It's actually transforming the way that we, uh, we interact with the world and attend to it. Yeah, um, but as it's become more instrumental and utilitarian as a way of looking at life, it stripped us of the relationships that we did have with the natural world, with one another, with meaningful work and so on. And yeah, as you say, that question has sharp teeth, like where do I find meaning when that's all gone? How do I find my way back?
DK:Yeah, you know, I I really feel we're at this, this apex of the crisis of individualism in some sense, and there are remarkable strengths to the historic rise of individualism.
DK:You know, beginning, some would say, in the age of enlightenment.
DK:Individual rights you know, beginning, some would say, in the age of enlightenment individual rights, the freedoms we have to think what we want, to feel, what we want, you know, to have the identity that we would like to.
DK:That feels right, you know, and it's a remarkable development in human history and at the same time it has separated us from people and from the natural world. It has built into us, thank you for, you know, a utilitarian, instrumental, transactional view of life of you know, it's all fungible, we can buy it and trade it, you know, and it has blinded us to these deep truths, like we're all part of this interconnected social system and ecosystem, that there are things that you can't buy, you know, and that we are also collective and not separate from each other in profound ways that science is showing. So I hope these meaning crises will get us back to some of those complementary truths, to who we are, that we're collective, we're storytellers, there are things that are sacred, the idea that I think in the academy we challenge the idea oh, the sacred is just constructed, but no, there are pretty deep things that are sacred around the world and I think we need to remind ourselves of these deep tendencies we have.
KP:And I think we need to remind ourselves of these deep tendencies we have. I've heard voices like yours, but there are other ones too. Whether you're talking about, I suppose, michael Sandel and the morality of markets, or what the Harvard flourishing project has come out with, the good life, there are like signs catching up with grandma right. These are things that generations ago, you were told yeah, you need to kind of be part of ritual, part of collective society, part of yeah, there's intrinsic worth to things that you don't have a price tag on.
KP:And now people like yourself are discovering the kind of neurophysiology, of why that actually, why that works out.
DK:Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, this stuff is old, you know. Like you know, finding your meaning meaning in music, which, which people do around the world, that's old, I mean, that's music is 80,000 years old. The archeological records suggest we sing similar songs around the world to our children, that's old. Finding meaning in visual patterns and spiritual tendencies, all deep human universals that are old, but we've lost sight of them In this individualistic, globalized world. We don't practice the rituals, we don't listen to music intentionally, we really are deeply disconnected from nature, which is remarkable.
DK:And when you think about what we were like a couple, three, 400 years ago, yeah, so I am proud to be the scientist who says grandma was right. And, by the way, so were those indigenous peoples around the world. They've been writing about meaning and transcendence and a different sense of self and consciousness, people like Dr Uriah Salidwin. So you know that, in part, science reminds us of the enduring truths, the perennial truths. But I will say, you know, the neurophysiology really matters, right, that awe, as one example, shuts down parts of the brain that are associated with rumination and self-focus, activates the vagus nerve and branches of your immune system that are healthy, right? So that's important knowledge for us today, as we confront this crisis of meaning yeah, it's fascinating and I'd love to dig into that.
KP:Yeah, I think ian. Did you have a question? I feel like you had a question on that.
IP:Yes, um, I was just curious. Are there, then, universal elements of meaning to to us all, or is there a universal, like balance, to be to be found, that you almost I think Kenny alluded to it earlier a sort of a fundamental truth that we should all be sort of seeking, or is it going to be different for everybody? How would you characterize it?
DK:Only the hardest question in social science.
DK:Outside of and next is what is consciousness. So thank you. Yeah, you know I've struggled with this one for 25 years and you know you take meaning and you know my sense is evolution. You know our hominid evolution, this incredible symbolic brain that we have, that's evolving, gives us kind of the structures that are universal right. So we are a storytelling species and that's how we understand things. It emerged linguists, think, with you know, when we started to gather around fires and cook meat and build tools and represent our natural world in stories. And that's a structure to meaning of like. Where am I in this story of my culture, my family, my identity, my people, and that is human, universal right. And then there are people who have looked at the content of stories. You know, people looking at folklore and the like, who say you know there are 2630 universal human themes that make their way into stories, right, you know revenge and injustice and murder and family dynamics and power and generosity and saintliness, and I think that those would be universal.
DK:Susan Langer, the great music philosopher, incredible, thinking about what she wrote about significant life themes that make their way into the musics around the world. Right Of I'm falling in love, I'm connecting to the divine. I am grappling with war and death. Those are universals. But then God it, you know it. Just it varies so much around the world about what you think death is where you think you go, what you consider to be. You know a family structure, and so I think both are always at play in you know again, this great dynamic of what evolution gives us and it's universal and then what culture does to transform it in mysterious ways. So you know, it's so, that's you know always. The social scientist says both are true. Apologize.
KP:So you mentioned awe as like one of the kind of, I suppose, scientific. You made a scientific study of awe lenses through which you understand meaning. Can you say a bit more about that? So you've got a definition of awe. You've got the kind of the wonders of awe in your great new book. I wonder if I could hand it to you to explain what you mean by awe.
DK:Yeah, you know, I've been studying the, you know the kind of transcendent emotions for some time in my career that you know Darwin wrote about the field, ignored a lot of inquiry into them right now. And they, you know the moral emotions, as Jonathan Haidt has said very rightly so, and they're incredible, right, you know, compassion is just the emotion that gets you to take care of harm, and that's a deep human need and universal of harm, and that's a deep human need and universal Gratitude is where you like, recognize how you're connected to friends and in trading relationships and giving to each other. And then I stumbled into the study of awe, which you know, this incredible emotion that we feel when we encounter vast mysteries we don't understand, and it's so striking. We have an emotion that's about mystery, you know, and that animates us to figure mysteries out. We can chart the physiology of awe. That helps define it, you know, deactivates the default mode network in the brain, which is part of self-ego representation, produces tears, which are part of the parasympathetic nervous systems, opening of the body to other people, elevates the activation of the vagus nerve, gives you those goosebumps and chills which are incredible, pretty universal, right. So awe has these sensations, this meaning to it. And, as you said, kenny, you know we feel it in response to, in some sense, what, like Einstein said, like what is just the most human stuff of existence Art, music, spirituality, moral beauty of other people, moving with others, big ideas, life and death, right, these wonders of life that I write about in this book, awe that are universal sources of awe.
DK:And then to the theme of our conversation. I was like our lab was grappling with, like what's the point of awe? You know why? And one thing it does is it really makes us better citizens of communities. We share, we cooperate. You know, if you go out and you look at the sky for a minute or two and take in a sunset, or these wonderful trees nearby on the Berkeley campus and elsewhere, it makes you share and cooperate and like. But what it really does for the mind is that it tells you what is most meaningful to you, right, it says to you what we get. An awe inspired by tells us like this is what I really care about and this is what I want to be part of in the story of my life, and that's why Oz here is to locate us in the grand narratives of existence.
KP:It's such an uplifting thing to study and to have as part of our physiology. It's human beings in their element, being kind of the most human, like fish and water. But I well put I wonder if, um, you know, as you say, as you say, it kind of reveals what you value, and often it kind of reverses what you value.
KP:So if you have this hierarchy and often like the instrumental, utilitarian and pleasure tend to be at the top, uh and, and these days in our culture, like the sacred and the holy is is pretty low down and that is kind of an interconnectedness is right there at the top and connection to maybe to divine, to nature and so on at the top, when you have all experiences, I I wonder, and that like you've got the evolutionary kind of um pragmatic function, yeah, but, is it also a compass for truth in some sense, like it's true that we're interconnected, it's true that you know the, the sense you have in experiencing awe is you're, you're resonating with something that is just true in the fabric of the universe and being human.
KP:But maybe I'm too imposing something too grand on this visual.
DK:I don't know what's your response to that god, kenny, you know I mean, of all the conversations I've had with about awe, that's the first time somebody's raised that possibility. It's such a great idea, thank you. You know compass for truth, and certainly you know William James when he was writing about religious awe or mystical awe, and you know a lot of the new interest in psychedelics builds upon James's discoveries that a core piece to a spiritual experience, be it meditating or in a spiritual contemplative context or psychedelics, is what James called the noetic dimension to that experience. Like this is true, you know, I know this is a fundamental quality of reality and I think you're right. But I'll just, you know, complicate things a little bit, which is that you know, and again borrowing from your wonderful summary, which is, I think, that evolution built into us very sensibly a lot of mechanisms that are about self-interest and self-preservation.
DK:You know, do I get rewards here? Am I gaining strategic advantage? Do I have elevated status compared to my friends, so I have more reproductive opportunities? That's self-interest, utilitarianism at its raw foundation. But we became this collective species which needed us to recognize those truths too, that we are part of a collective, we are part of a culture, we share things with other people. I have a collective sense of self, and that's what all, I think, all makes us realize, and we've lost sight of this that there are these truths. Like I have a collective mind, my physiology is linked up with other people all the time, right, we all share in this shared consciousness that culture gives us, and so is awe, a compass for truth. I think it's a compass that shines a light on these truths of our collective consciousness. So it's a little bit constrained.
KP:That's absolutely fair and very, very scientific uh, I sorry I was.
DK:I was hoping I could go to your lofty reaches, but next time I am.
KP:You know, I've like, uh any excuse to to try and find a uh, a north star um life. You know, uh, I was looking at james's varieties religious experience and it seems like all is like. So he's talking about religious all, but it maps on to the others passive, transient, ineffable, um, yeah, they just kind of resonate what you're mentioned this in the email. I think, um, what your uh, your insights and your work really seem to chime with to me is Ian McGilchrist's work on how the let the right hemisphere attend to the world. Are you kind of familiar with that and is it something that you'd recognize?
DK:yeah, you know, I know that hemispheric is. You know symmetrical division of labor in the mind. You know Richie Davidson worked on it for a long time. I don't know what the status of it is and I know McGill-Chris's arguments and I think he's on to something and that's the kind of insight we need in this search. For you know, these higher order forms of meaning in the psychedelic literature, where you know the truths, you believe in panpsychism and collective consciousness, right, and that's I think there's going to be. I think that's going to be verified, if you will, in the study of psychedelics.
DK:And awe is there are big chunks of the brain that give you oceanic feelings of connectivity, like the oxytocin network in the periaqueductal gray and other regions. There are chunks of your cortex that represent and other regions of the brain that represent like, wow, I no longer feel like there are these boundaries between me and other people. We're all part of some organism, right, and those are fundamental truths, whether it's in the right versus left hemisphere. That's a controversial thesis that really grouchy neuroscientists probably wouldn't endorse, but I think they'll go Chris's right in spirit and I think that's one of the great frontiers of inquiry. Is this oceanic brain that emerges with awe and psychedelics and dance and music and meditation, and we just don't know what those regions are. And great theorists like McGilchrist point us. They say go get him. He may be wrong whether it's right or left hemisphere, but I think he's right in the in the claim.
KP:Yeah, in terms of it, it changes the kind of attention you pay to the world. If you have the oh my God his left hemispheres, utilitarian instrumentals, doesn't get context, doesn't get relationships, but that all mine, that's, it's front and center for all of that interconnection and commuting with the divine and so on.
IP:Is it too simplistic to just map sort of individualistic utilitarian thoughts to the left of the brain and all to the right? Is there sort of evidence in support of that?
DK:It sounds very a lovely model.
IP:It's easy for everyone to understand.
DK:But yeah, I well, you know, I think it's that there's a whole. You know I'm always in the science world and there are deep skepticisms about right, left hemisphere. I mean, those are massive chunks of the brain, right, you know, 40 billion neurons in each side, so we got to have more specificity, uh. But I think I think an ambitious, provocative young neuroscientist could probably show that's the case, that you know, utilitarian, narrow self-interest, reward driven behavior probably is in the left parts of the cortex. More oceanic, hyper-connected stuff is in the right, and you know you need the right tasks and measures. But that would really shake the field up and I think there's possibility to it.
KP:So ah, it's a. It's a very interesting frontier of science, huh yeah, I agree um, would you say that? So we've talked briefly really about how maybe individualism kind of, maybe since Reformation and Enlightenment, we have perhaps decreased our exposure to experiences of awe. Would you say that we are more awe-deprived than we were before, and this is perhaps connected to the meaning crisis, if we can bring it back around to that. So I guess two questions there is yeah, do you see?
KP:us as more all deprived and like what. The hallmark of that and yeah is that is that connected to this, this meaning crisis that you see in the opium crisis, suicide crisis and so on.
DK:What a terrific question. Yeah, you know, in some sense the understanding is that four or five hundred years ago we lived in these communities. They were tighter, we weren't traveling, you know, there were smaller communities organized by religion and rituals and social practices and and, and there was a lot of that deep shared. All right, there are a lot of downsides, obviously, to community life and we have to remember they're usually not very good for women and in often, you know, that kind of community life there are often pretty rigid hierarchies and dogmas and the like, and we've had this sort of move away from that to our individualistic era and I think so in some sense. What we yearn for are those structures and Alain de Botton and Boyer and Caspar Turk, kyle, coming out of Harvard Divinity School and others are saying like let's just, let's return to our lives the strengths of of community that aren't necessarily judgmental or sexist or patriarchal, right of of rituals and music and shared eating and narrative and opportunities for awe.
DK:The data are clear, which I referred to, that says we are awe-deprived that young people really not, they don't. 40% of Americans don't have somebody, a role model who inspires them, which is just. You know we need those people. You know we are not getting out in nature like we used to get out in nature, so that's worrisome. You know, we listen to music much more differently than we did 100 years ago or 40 years ago, when I was young. We don't listen to it together, we listen to it in a fragmented way.
DK:So we've lost a lot of opportunities for awe. Education has become so narrow. It's amazing what young people learn. It's better than at any time in human history. But they don't step back and think of the broader context, and that's well-documented context and that's well documented. So we've lost a lot and I think it's why you know why we hunger for meaning and why you see things in young people today, because this is irrepressible. They're interested in communal living. They're challenging the institution of marriage right. They are interested in various green movements. So they're interested in festivals. You know festivals are at historic highs because they provide awe. So it's very much at play with this crisis of meaning is our need for awe and where we can find it.
KP:That's a fascinating connection between festivals and kind of awe deprivation. I'd never thought of that connection before. Yeah, I absolutely see it. I mean one thing that comes to mind Alain de Botton and Caspar de Cullet and people like that who are trying to construct kind of, I suppose, containers for meaning, but without the metaphysics that came before from religion, and sometimes I wonder if that's like how possible that is, to have the fruits without the roots, as it were. I mean, maybe it is and they could kind of.
DK:I think, kenny, you're right to question that. There was a wonderful essay by Adam Gopnik in the New Yorker on Robert Wright's book on Buddhism, where he's like Robert Wright. There's a wonderful essay by Adam Gopnik in the New Yorker on Robert Wright's book on Buddhism where he's like Robert Wright, who's a great writer, kind of secularizes Buddhism and he takes out all the metaphysics you know of afterlives and multiple selves and transcending time and so forth. And humans love that you know. So why not allow for that as well? And I think of that you know. So why not allow for that as well? And I think, I think you know, all leads us in that direction. Uh, it led william james to it, right, and so I think we, I think you're right to suggest we need that well, it's.
KP:I mean, yeah, it's interesting, it's. I think the fact that I know you, the end of your book, you, you've got you, you know what is all for it, brings us together collectively. It's got kind of phenomenological coherence and reveals the system we're part of. It brings to mind, I suppose, my kind of trading in philosophy and theology. Yeah, cs Lewis has this kind of argument. Uh, yeah, cs lewis has this, this kind of argument. He says we're, we're born with these desires, the, the, you know, for hunger for sex, for, uh, community and so on, and there's something to to meet them. But that, that hunger for meaning, he said well, it means we're wired for, you know, for the divine, uh or whatever. And it's uh, I don't know when you, when you unweave the rainbow or kind of disenchant the world, um, how, how you find re-enchantment, um, is, is, it is, it feels like a big question yeah, yeah, and you know, and that's why I love, uh, william j, pluralism.
DK:It is a big question and CS Lewis is right, we secular, rational, you know, ethics type people struggle with our urge for the divine, but it is as universal as any social tendency. Right, it is. People do it. 81% of Americans believe in the divine, and so it's there, and I agree. I think that we need multiple conversations to allow people to approach that question.
DK:You know, as a reductionistic scientist, when I got into the sort of my own narrative of awe, in particular in losing my brother who passed away and wondered you know, what is his life like, what is his consciousness when his body goes classic question and I still felt him around and I had these supernatural experiences. I felt his hand on my back a couple times, you know, I heard his voice, uh, I sense him around and and you know so. Then, as a scientist, you like me, you or a secular person, you shift to a different layers of meaning, like quantum physics, and you know the quantum self and and, and that's that's part of this inquiry, our hunger for deeper meaning, uh, that I think we need to encourage, whatever the pathway.
KP:I find that very moving reading about your brother Rolf and your experience of all there. So you mentioned education and I kind of agree. I'm, maybe in a different sense, in awe of what young people are learning. There's so much, maybe in a different sense in awe of what young people are learning there's so much.
KP:But it does feel like there is very little actual awe in a school curriculum there. And, yeah, I wonder if you could do two things Maybe say what good it would do if all was part of education, and like whether you've got any idea of what that might look like. Um, I, I would love to be part of a curriculum which tried to engender a sense of awe.
DK:Yeah, you know, I, uh, I think it's a central challenge of our times. You know there, you know there are economists, you know there's something called the Flynn effect, which is people are getting smarter. You know, in sort of the you know kind of the rational, utilitarian scientific method. They're better at data, they're better at statistics, they know genetics, they know the brain, they know ecosystems, they can. You know, it's amazing what people know and young people know.
DK:And at the same time, I think it's you know, as you referred to earlier, kenny, it's, it's become really narrow and and process oriented and reductionistic, like, oh, I figure out algorithms to you know where input turns into output and I know the answer. And what they've lost is broadly a sense of mystery. And then the bigger questions that are accompanied by awe. Right, writing this book and just look and reading people's lives, most of the great discoveries in human history are accompanied by experiences of awe religious discoveries, darwin's discoveries of evolution, einstein, et cetera. It is the, as we've called it in our lab, an epistemological emotion that drives knowledge forward, and our students have lost that, and so we've actually created a course that brings more awe into schools, targeting like 12-year-olds, 13-year-olds, and you just return to the big questions, right, and remind students whatever they're studying like what is you know, what is the system that what you're learning about is part of.
DK:You might be learning baseball, like football statistics in the UK. You know well what is the system of football in the UK and think about its history. What are the origins of the phenomena that you're considering? This comes out of Rachel Carson, which is you're starting a little, studying a little piece of a domain of knowledge. Right, you're studying this moment in British history. Well, let's shift brain and think about the broader context of things to get students to reactivate awe. So let's cross our fingers. I think we really need it.
KP:What would you do? Well, I mean, if I could and I try to do this with some of my students get them into nature as much as possible and understanding that they are part of nature. So we even our language suggests that we're distinct from it right, we talk about going into nature as if we're being apart from it. Um, so I think getting into nature uh feels to me like fundamental, fundamental, um learning to, I think, learning to listen to each other better. Uh, we're, we're bad at that, and what comes is a kind of lack of connection. Yeah, uh. Oh, I mean, it's a good question I should have asked myself already no, well, you've hit two on the head, right.
DK:You know?
KP:nature-based education, listening, you know I mean those feel not feeling like you're part of a machine like you're a sausage factory of you know, like here's some, the questions and the mystery should be more interesting than the answers and more rewarding. Um, so I said I suppose that that being kind of front and center and, as you say, I love the idea of zooming out so you have a context and you feel like you're part of something vast, those are all ways of, yeah, sparking awe.
DK:Yeah, I love your emphases and it's worth just dwelling upon it for a minute, nature listening. But you know, the word that just stayed with me through writing this book is mystery, and it's so relevant to knowledge and education. Our topic right now, you know so much, is animated by mystery and it is the great fount of discovery, and oz is the emotion around mystery and and you know, are watching my daughters go through such an intense education these days that they just they lost the mystery you know of of biology or economic history or whatever it is, or mathematics, and and I think you're right, that would be a, that could be a whole movement of mystery-based education I mean, I think mcgill christ, if he was here, would be like chiming in with this, because it's when we remove things from their context, uh like looking at a cell in isolation under a microscope without this, because actually fundamentally you're looking at a different thing.
KP:Isolation under a microscope without this, because actually fundamentally you're looking at a different thing because you're not looking at what it's part of the way it's interconnected. Uh, it ceases to be what it is when it's torn from where.
IP:You know, from its context, um great connection how do practices like the modern well-being practices like meditation and gratitude, journaling, how do they relate to all, seems like you, mysteries about curiosity, and you know, journaling allows you to kind of take a step back and look at the bigger picture and you mentioned, I think, at the start of the conversation uh, or has a way of turning the rumination side of the brain off, and meditation seems like it maybe does that to you. So are there other practices that relate to, to developing a sense of awe or an openness to all?
DK:thank you, and you know the one of the. You know it's so interesting how blind scientists are and people who study things like we shouldn't have answers to your question. You know what is the relationship between meditation 2,500 years old, 3,000 years old yoga is older. And awe I mean so much of it is a way to become awestruck by our natural worlds, the world around us is a way to become awestruck by our natural worlds, the world around us, humans, life and death. Bhutanese practices get you to imagine the life cycle in the Himalayan Buddhism tradition and we just don't know. And I think it's gonna be.
DK:One of the big areas of discovery in the study of mindfulness is that there are practices that can bring about awe through mindfulness that are good for us, things like this Bhutanese practice that is being tested now of just taking people you love and imagining their life cycle from being an infant to passing away, and people feel more awe at the wonders of the life cycle and actually feel more connected to the world, nature immersion. Meditation is a medication and that's coming in a big way that we have evolved tendencies to feel contemplative in nature. And one thing I'm really interested in that we totally forget. It's ridiculous. I've been teaching mindfulness stuff for 20 years in my class, like focus on your body, feel your breath, imagine you're eating a raisin. That's all good, but we forgot music and visual art, like listen to music and see what your identity is revealed. So there are a lot of techniques to bring about awe and we've tested them scientifically. They're great for people and I think they're a future of that literature.
KP:Is your experience that? So, if you talk about like a mindful mindset and you can talk about a mindset that's maybe primed for awe, did you in your studies when you looked primed for all? Did you in your studies when you looked at the physiology, did you notice it more in younger children? Is it something they kind of they unlearn as they get older?
DK:man, your question just gave me goosebumps, because which goosebumps? The physiological correlate of awe arises when we feel like we're sharing something. You and I are sharing something that's really important. That idea, um, yeah, you know, it's so funny. Um, and again, this is how scientists are extraordinarily blind. Um, you know the?
DK:For a long time people felt like you couldn't measure awe, you couldn, couldn't study it. It's the ineffable, it's mysterious. You can measure awe in several different ways. You know there's an awe vocalization, whoa. It's deeply universal. So you can measure it, you can study it.
DK:And there are like two papers on awe in children, which is astonishing.
DK:We've done one and then another lab at the University of Chicago is working on it and there is the possibility and we're starting to study infant baby awe that it is one of the early emerging emotions, right, uh, you know, maybe at a year where you know they, you know and, if you want proof, like there are these funny youtube videos of babies in tunnels, where a little baby in a car seat will go through.
DK:They go into a tunnel and they're in pitch black and existence has stopped and again in their early minds, and then they come out of the tunnel and it's bright and there's mom and she's driving and you look at their facial You've got to see them and their facial expressions are pure awe. They're just like whoa. So we now have the capacity to figure out, like maybe the Buddhists and Einstein are right, like awe is a basic state of consciousness, basic Wow. That's something vast that I can't make sense of. There it is, and maybe we unlearn it through life. And that's what Rachel Carson, who's a hero in this book, the great American environmentalist, said. You know, it is our signature strength and it is an antidote to how civilization can crush us as we grow older.
KP:And an important reminder to return to. Yeah, maybe one of the reasons is because you're educated out of it, like everything is flattened and reduced, and know there's the. There are no miracles, no mysteries, no enchantment here, uh, and there's no wonder that you, you end up an adult until you have kids, right? Yeah, you know you've got chapter kind of birth and death and, um, me and ian both have kids and there is that like that, that initial experience, but also that kind of continuous experience as they're growing up and wide-eyed and you know there's uh it's a good note yeah, and you just highlight.
DK:You know it's so fascinating and you guys are asking good questions. I wish I had better answers but you know I got. I knew I could study awe and you know I was lost in the worlds of compassion and gratitude and other emotions. And and then my first daughter, natalie, was born, you know, 26 years ago. And just watching her come out, looking at her face and I write about this in the book and I study the face and I was like God, her face looks like the perfect mixture of of Molly and my faces and generations of faces I was just like the whole world was new Right of faces. I was just like the whole world was new right.
DK:And then that's, we find that as a universal elicitor of awe. But the deeper, unexamined question, kenny, you point to is how parenting and the child as we coexist through life is just a perpetual source. It's a source of horror and disgust as they vomit on you and you know terror and so forth, but all you know there is so much awe in watching children develop it and no one studied that and there will. There should be all based parenting. Yeah.
KP:I think it's so. I did a bit of study the other year on presence, actually as a virtue, virtue like becoming present to the moment and it's, it feels like that's all makes you present, makes you kind of savoring, absorbing the moment.
KP:um, maybe it's also a condition of awe, you know. You know if I, if I go to see my daughter in the christmas show, which will be in a week or two, and I'm checking my phone, not being pregnant, I'm going to miss it. But I think one of my favorite takeaways from your book is always at arm's reach. What am I trying to say? Within arm's reach, within arm's length, it's available to us, but you need to be kind of primed for it or attentive to it.
DK:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for bringing that into our collective awareness. You know this is why we do science. You know a lot of it confirms what your grandmother would have told you, and maybe your grandmother would have said this too that awe is always around us. She would never have said that. To be honest, I did never catch her feeling awe. Maybe your grandmother would have said this too that awe is always around us.
IP:She would never have said that, to be honest.
KP:I did never catch her feeling awe Interestingly. As she's gotten older that's come back to her. You know how old people kind of become a bit more like kids. In one she is more like she will well up. Anyway, we're not talking about my grandmother. Uh, I want to talk about your grandmother, she's 99, all right and so she's feeling all uh, yeah, sorry, carry on, yeah, but no, you know.
DK:But this is why we do science and, and you know, I think when people hear the word awe, they think, oh, it's that extraordinary moment. You know where I'm at, stonehenge, and you know the. The storm goes past and a lightning bolt hits and I hear the voice of God, and it's once in a lifetime. But our research shows in 10 different cultures we feel it two to three times a week and we can feel it every day. It's at arm's reach, it's around us and when you think about the implications, it's a basic state of mind. Right, if we just pause for a minute, put stuff away and we recently tested this and published it and it's not in the book because it wasn't yet published.
DK:But you know, we had medical doctors, nurses, during the height of the pandemic in the United States and it was chaos and they were watching people die without family around and understaffed and overworked. These are really people in the hardest times of medical care and we had them do an all awareness where it's just like one minute a day. You stop, put stuff away, you take some breathing, you put aside your kind of labels and you know checklists and then you just think like what's a big thing? I'm part of right now.
DK:You know, and when I you know, I look at you and Ian, I'm like man. These guys have asked such incredible questions. We're part of this broader conversation about awe and meaning. So we did that with healthcare providers just be aware of it for one minute, and then for the next 21 days they did that and they were less depressed and anxious during the pandemic, you know, significantly. So. So, yeah, it's around us and a lot of things are conspiring, like we've talked about in this show, to make us forget that. Oh, you know what's your next goal? What's on your smartphone, who's doing, who's at the great resort on your instagram and why do I envy them?
KP:you know, and and all right here, the the, the, the way that the technology, particularly screens, leech into everything. I'm a big fan of um shabbat. I don't keep it really, but I love abraham. Joshua heshel says that it's like building a palace in time, and it's this time, without technology, without work, where you're just kind of dwelling, abiding, I suppose, um, and it's, it's those kind of ancient practices that have carried communities through, and maybe they've hardly carried communities through because they've created that space for all for kind kind of, you know, appreciation.
DK:Palaces in time, and you know there's a wonderful book Palaces for the People in the United States by a sociologist about our public spaces that really are, are really meant to be, public spaces for awe. And you know galleries and museums and concert halls and squares and natural history museums and one of the really fun things to grow out of awe is now I'm part of conversations with museums and art art museums like how do we bring a little bit of all back? You know, uh, rather than I was in the louvre recently and I was like mud wrestling with 80 000 tourists just to take a selfie in front of the mona lisa, and that was the experience of the louvre and I'm like, come on, you know, this has got to be, it's got to be better than that, and so I think I, I love your, your thought there, kenny, of like what are our palaces of time and sacredness? That awe is part of.
IP:Sorry, I almost wonder. Is it almost like awe is our default state and I think it's called automaticity? You know, when you learn how to do something, you develop a model in your mind and then you fit everything that you can to that model and then you stop thinking about the model and so you stop being awestruck by those things that once were novel are now automated. Does novelty factor in alongside vastness and mystery, or is it part of the mystery? Is that where it factors in, it seems like novel things are more. If I see an amazing mountain vista once, it's awe-inspiring. If I see it 20 times, I'm really going to have to sort of meditate on it and focus and use those tools to try and bring back that sense.
DK:Yeah, man, you asked again two of the harder questions in this space.
DK:You know the first is and this again is why we do science default state.
DK:You know a lot of Western European people would be like no, awe is just a luxury, it's a construct of culture, it isn't part of our natural state, if you will, they would even contest the idea of a natural state. And although people in the contemplative traditions, like the different branches of Buddhism, are very interested in natural states, and I think awe is a natural state of the human mind, as is compassion, and this is why science is really interesting, because compassion, we know, and this is why science is really interesting, because compassion, we know, engages parts of the brain that are in the mid, which is? It engages old regions of the brain, oxytocin networks, vagal tone, very old system in the malian nervous system that says this is a natural state of responding to vast mystery which mammals do. Jane Goodall really felt that the chimpanzee she observed felt awe, as I write about in the book Novelty. You know, and this is where I really find inspiration from the contemplative traditions, beginner's mind, right, you can always feel things are new, you know, because in some sense they are, you know.
KP:Beginner's mind. That's exactly the phrase that's been occurring to me for the last like 10 minutes or so, thinking this is where we've got to go, uh to, to find more awe. I wonder if I'm aware that you're at the beginning of a day, the beginning of a week. I wonder if I can just try and pull some threads together and ask you one last question, if that's all right. Um, so the the question? Um, am I phrasing it right?
DK:I, how do we find meaning in life? Is that, yeah, how do you find meaning in life? How do you know the things you do matter, that they're part of a larger story? Uh, that you understand? And? And my answer is awe. You know, it is the emotion that connects most deeply to our quest for meaning.
DK:Um, and so what I do, and and I really learned, you know, with, through grief, in losing my brother, where I felt like life was meaningless because he was such a source of meaning for me throughout, you know, since he was born 14 months after I was born is, you know, like we talked about earlier, cultivate an awe mindset. Pause, open your mind, put away labels and conceptualizations and think about the things that are bigger, that you're part of, and then rely on those eight wonders to find meaning. You know moral beauty, people's kindness and courage. That will give you a lot of meaning. Who those people are. Music Young people find so much meaning in music and we forget that right. Visual design, moving with others, spiritual, ethical contemplation. So the wonders of life, which are very intuitive and around us, get us to meaning if we just pause for a moment and open our minds I love it.
KP:That's so uh kind of beautifully practical and incredibly profound. Um, and yeah, I'm I'm gonna try and be deliberate about creating those palaces in time for for all to fill them awesome daca thank. Thank you so much for your time today. It's been a real joy to speak to you.
DK:Kenny and Ian. I am scribbling notes over here because I've got lots of new ideas to pursue, thanks to you, and thank you for getting us all to think about the exam. In life, we need more of it?
KP:Not at all. I mean, there's so many other places I'd love to go, but time is what it is. I hope you have a wonderful Monday and thanks so much for joining us today.
DK:It's been uplifting to be with you guys. Thank you Cool, thank you.
KP:Thank you for tuning in to the first episode of the second series of the Examined Life podcast. I hope you found it as helpful and compelling as I did to hear about the insights that we can get from awe on living a meaningful life. I am drawn to this idea that awe can kind of be like almost a Veritas serum for telling us what is true and good and like worth our attention and worth pursuing.
KP:A theme, as I said, that runs through the second series of podcasts is being positively maladjusted, and that's kind of riffing on the Krishnamurti quote that it is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a sick society. The question that then raises is what does it mean to be maladjusted in a kind of healthy, positive way? And oh, according to Dacher Keltner and I'm with him on this can act as a kind of compass for telling us what is worth our attention and how can we align our lives more to what is genuinely valuable rather than what the world around us has influenced us to pursue, which, as I'm sure we all know, doesn't always lead to human flourishing. I do absolutely recommend Dekker's book on awe. I find it fascinating and the science behind it is really, really compelling, for more on this, do please sign up for my newsletter.
DK:In it.
KP:I try to process my thinking and apply it to my own experience. I hope that that is helpful for some people. If it is for you, do please let me know or send it to somebody else who might enjoy it. As ever with podcasts, it's a really crowded market, so if you enjoyed this one, then please do like, subscribe, share it. It really helps other people find the podcast and it's very nice for me to know that other people are enjoying it. Thank you once again for tuning in and thank you to my friend, ian for sharing in this conversation with me. Do stay tuned for the next episode, where I'll be talking to Elizabeth Oldfield, the writer, coach and podcaster, about what it means to work on the soul, to cultivate the character, the kind of human beings that we're becoming. I found it a rich and fascinating conversation and I hope you will too. In the meantime, I hope you find some awe in your week that can point to what is meaningful in life and help you to become positively maladjusted. Thank you for listening.