Ep52 - Ellie MacDonald: The Therapeutic Benefits of Mindful Photography

In this conversation, Kim Grant speaks with Ellie MacDonald, as she shares her journey into mindful photography and how it has transformed her life. She discusses the practice of mindful photography, the benefits it offers, and the connection between mindfulness and photography. Ellie also talks about her studies in mindfulness and compassion, her new podcast called Capturing Calm, and her dreams for the future of mindful photography. The conversation explores the use of photography in therapy and the potential benefits of incorporating it into mindfulness practices. It also highlights the importance of exploring different styles of therapy and finding one that works for each individual.

Takeaways

• Mindful photography is a practice of paying attention on purpose in the present moment, non-judgmentally.
• Mindful photography can increase emotional well-being and self-compassion.
• Photography can be a powerful tool for self-discovery and exploring emotions.
• Mindful photography is accessible to everyone, regardless of technical knowledge or equipment.
• Sharing stories and experiences through photography can create connections and inspire others. Photography can be a valuable tool in therapy and mindfulness practices.
• There are various styles of therapy available, and it's important to find one that aligns with individual preferences and needs.
• Therapy and mindfulness can be taken outside of traditional settings and explored in imaginative ways.

Connect with Ellie:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/capturing.calm/
Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/2xIfd2XltkhMxqIuSUbpc4

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Website: https://www.photographicconnections.com/

5 Senses Activation: https://www.photographicconnections.com/five-senses-activation

Immersive Photography Weekends in Scotland:
https://www.photographicconnections.com/photographyweekends

Follow the journey
Instagram: http:/www.instagram.com/photographicconnections

Follow Kim's photography journey and offerings
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/@kimgrantphotography
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/kimgrantphotography

Music by Mark Robinson
Song: A Thousand Lifetimes
Website: http:/www.markrobinsonmusic.com
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MarkRobinsonMusic

Transcript

Kim (00:00.226)
Hello and welcome to the Photographic Connections podcast, the podcast where photography brings us together so we can explore so much more. My name is Kim Grant and today we are exploring mindfulness and how we can practice this through photography. I don't really do photography in a kind of traditional sense. It's very much an extension of my mindfulness practice without having to sit down and...

practice mindfulness. For me, it's been a really powerful transformation on how I feel about myself, how I feel about my life. And particularly it's been a great way of me, for me to explore my emotions, my feelings through photography, because a lot of my pictures do reflect how I'm feeling that day or how I've been feeling that week. Mindfulness is something we've spoken about in past episodes, but today we're going to dive into this deeper. I've recognised in my own photography journey

that I've naturally been practicing mindfulness since day one. But it wasn't until I did the Working with Mindful Photography course last year with Look Again Photography that I truly began to understand and appreciate the wellness benefits that mindful photography can bring. I had the founder of Look Again, Ruth Davy, on the podcast in season one, which proved to be a very interesting and popular episodes. Now we're taking this further.

with a fun and engaging chat with Ellie McDonald from Capturing Cam. As someone who's quite fidgety and finds traditional mindfulness challenging, she's discovered that photography allows her to naturally practice mindfulness in a way that works for her. May Ellie's story bring you much food for thought as you listen, and inspire you to engage with photography in a more contemplative and curious way. Enjoy!

Hi, Ellie. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast this week. Thank you so much for having me, Kim. I'm excited. Excited to be here. I'm excited. Yes. It's really bizarre. We were speaking before we came on and I don't really know anything about you and I couldn't really find anything about you online either. But just to give people some context of how I came across you, I noticed you started following the Photographic Connections podcast Instagram page.

Kim (02:18.786)
And then I checked out your page and saw that you do a lot of mindful photography stuff. So I thought you'd be a fantastic guest. And I believe you are also based in Scotland as well, aren't you? I am. I'm in Gallowsheals. I've lived here, which is just south of Edinburgh in the Scottish borders, in case anybody doesn't know. And I've lived in Gallowsheals with my wife for about five years now. And I moved to Edinburgh about 10 years ago. So I'm actually originally from just outside London, obviously, by my accent.

And I've been up here in Scotland for about 10 years, no intention of ever going back. Because I love it up here. Brilliant. Well, it's lovely to have you in Scotland. And yeah, it's nice to meet another person who lives in Scotland who's also doing quite similar work. So I'd love for you to go back to the beginning of your journey and just begin by sharing the story of what got you into photography in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. So.

Just a little background, I'm a mindful nature photographer. Nature photography is kind of my thing, but it's not necessarily where I've always been. I'm also studying a master's degree in mindfulness and compassion at the University of Aberdeen. That's all online, so that's been really nice. How it all started really was when I came out as gay, probably I think it was 2011 or 2012, I actually lost all of my friends for some strange reason. They all decided they didn't want to be friends with me anymore.

because of that. And it led to, as you can imagine, a lot of anxiety and triggered the first panic attack that I've had. And I've not had loads, but that was the first one I'd had. And I ended up going down into a quite dark place in anxiety and depression after that.

Ellie (04:07.982)
I went to the doctor, I was signed off from work for a while and I was exploring ways of how to feel better in myself and really accept myself again and accept the sort of situation I was in. And I ended up having CBT therapy over the phone just through the NHS and it was fantastic and it was brilliant. And my therapist actually recommended that I start doing mindfulness practice.

So I didn't really know where to start. So I looked it up online and I found a Headspace app and I started just doing mindfulness practice every single day on there and I loved it. And then I was doing that. I was going for walks and I was doing mindful walking practice as well. And it wasn't until sort of maybe six months after I'd started practicing mindfulness, my wife, who's now my wife, she's my girlfriend at

camera out because we had this camera in the house, no one was using it. And I was like, yeah, actually, I will take, I will take it out. Cause I used to love taking pictures when I was a kid. I used to actually love the video camera when I was younger. I used to love making films. They were, I won't say films, but I just felt like filming things. And I thought, yeah, I'll take it out. I'll, I'll just take out on a walk and see what, what happens. So I took it with me and

It was actually a snowy day, I remember. It was absolutely gorgeous. So it wasn't difficult to find nice things to take photos of. But I found that I was going out and I was really noticing what was around me, as opposed to just looking and seeing and being like, oh, yeah, there's a tree or whatever. I was really noticing and I was looking at details more and I was taking pictures of things that I found really pretty or I found really interesting. And I noticed that when I was doing that,

It took my mindfulness practice to a different level.

Ellie (06:10.41)
say that, but I didn't really know I was doing it. I didn't really realize I was doing mindful photography. Does that make sense? I was almost like I was doing it without realizing, and I did that for a long time. And I ended up taking the camera out with me every single time I went out. And I was just in that moment, so beautifully in that moment, noticing things that I forgot everything else around me. That was fantastic. But also what I found was when I was getting home, I was looking at my photos.

And it was taking me back to how I felt when I was out taking the photos, when I was on a walk. And that made me feel great too. Even editing my photos, the post-production of photos, which I would say is, wasn't really what I was doing. I was just like, it was really, really simple editing, was making me feel good too. And I was in the present moment every time I was with my camera and every time I was editing or looking or sharing my photos.

So I carried on like this for a while. I actually ended up getting a dog because I loved going out and walking. And I thought, well, I may as well take a dog with me. So we got a dog called Stan and he ended up coming out with me all the time. I've got two dogs now and they both come out with me. So I don't really do photography in a kind of traditional sense. It's very much an extension of my mindfulness practice. And it's just a way for me to

practice mindfulness without having to sit down and practice mindfulness. Because I'm quite fidgety. I'm quite, I want to be doing something all the time. And I find that with the camera, it means I can practice without getting bored, without my mind going off into different places. And for me, it's been a really powerful transformation on how I feel about myself, how I feel about my life.

And particularly, it's been a great way for me to explore my emotions, my feelings through photography, because a lot of my pictures do reflect how I'm feeling that day or how I've been feeling that week. And I'm able to then go back to those and really explore how I was feeling when I was taking that photo and really deconstruct how I was feeling when I was taking that photo. And so that's how it started. So, as I say, that was probably about 10 or 11 years ago. And...

Ellie (08:35.806)
It wasn't until probably about six years into doing this practice, I actually thought, is this a thing? Am I mindfully taking photos? Is this actually a thing or what's going on? So I looked it up online and I thought, it is a thing. It is a practice. I thought, great, that's brilliant. So I read about it. I looked into it a lot more and I noticed that the practice that I was doing was very, very much aligned to the definitions of the practice, which is...

basically going out and noticing things as if you've seen them for the first time. And really, it's a child's mind of viewing things, which was great. And I was like, cool, I am actually doing it. But I don't think, to be honest, I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do mindful photography. It's whatever works for you. And then I carried on exploring. And what's interesting to me is I feel quite different from a lot of photographers in that I don't

do photography to show off what I found or to try and get the perfect image or the perfect light or I don't seek out a photo, a photo finds me instead. So I don't wait for the perfect conditions. I don't wait for the light to be perfect or I don't go out at specific times of day. When I go out to practice, I'm first of all doing my mindfulness practice.

And what comes with that is noticing what's around me. And then I take photos of those things that are around me. So it's more like accepting what's there at the time and taking photos of that and not trying to change anything. And another thing that I've noticed is I have no idea any technical things about photography at all. I know how to use my camera. I've got a Canon camera. I've got a couple of lenses. I know a few settings on that camera, but I've never actually

tried to learn what ISO is or aperture, I've kind of read definitions, but I've never tried to really go for that side. I've always kept it like really, not childlike, I don't want to say it's not childlike, but I've kept it really basic for me so that I'm not getting myself kind of bogged down in the details of the technical stuff, the technical side or like the perfect image if that exists, which I don't believe it does.

Ellie (11:02.27)
So yeah, that's kind of where my practice started. That's kind of where it's going. And I've developed, I guess, purely just because I keep doing it all the time and not because I've done any studying or that I've done any courses in photography or anything like that. I've just enjoyed playing with it. And I think that's where I am at the moment. Yeah, brilliant.

Thank you for explaining all of that. There's so much to delve into. There's so much that I'd really like to reflect back and comment on. It's a very beautiful process, I think, when you look into your photography, almost philosophy and process. And I love when you said there, you know, you don't go and seek out an image, that the image finds you. And that's one thing I was learned. And it was.

Yeah, sort of reflected to us when I did a mindful photography course last year. And I started to realise a bit like yourself that I've been doing mindful photography without knowing it for so long. Yeah. A lot of photographers start out that way, I believe. Yeah. Like in mindful, but without realising that they're doing it. Yeah. And it's interesting because now that I speak about mindfulness and mindful photography, it's almost like I sometimes don't like using the word because it's all these pre-

of conceived ideas of what it means. And of course, many people associate it with meditation, which of course, that is very mindful. And there is very meditative practices within it. But I think it's almost about for me trying to find out now, how do I find the language to explain this without always using the words? Because we hear the word mindfulness all over the place now, but as you've experienced in your own experience and how, as I've experienced in my life experience as well.

The power of mindfulness is so important, but for many people it's about finding a way to practice mindfulness because meditation isn't going to work for everybody. And it's beautiful. That's the similarity we've got is the beauty is that we found mindfulness through photography and almost found it without even realising. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the definition of mindfulness has kind of been lost in translation, I think a little bit recently.

Ellie (13:17.346)
in the last 10 years, I guess. And mindfulness isn't sitting down meditating, and it's certainly not clearing your mind of all thoughts and being completely zen or blissed out or whatever it is. Well, John Kabat-Zinn actually defines mindfulness, and I've got it written down here, as paying attention on purpose in the present moment, non-judgmentally. And I think that kind of sums it up, especially the non-judgmentally part when you come to mindful photography, because what we're doing is

We're not judging what's in front of us. We're accepting what's in front of us. And I think that's what we need to do with our emotions, our thoughts and feelings. If we start to push things away emotionally or with bodily sensations and things like that, what we resist persists. And I think that can just continue to push back on us and it can make us unwell. And I think when you translate that into mindful photography, you're not trying to change what's there.

you're not waiting for the perfect time to do something. You're just accepting what's there. And that's all mindfulness is. It's accepting exactly what's happening at the present moment without judging it at all. So you're not labeling it as good or bad. So if we look at it through a photography lens, if you're looking outside and you see it's raining, you might say that's bad weather. It's not bad weather. It's just weather. And it's like on the flip side of that, a sunny

Ellie (14:47.646)
The golden hour isn't necessarily better than midday when you're doing mindful photography. It's just what's there now when you're out with your camera. I think that's how you can get your head around a mindfulness practice. It doesn't have to be sitting on a cushion for half an hour trying to calm your mind down. Mindfulness practice can be literally just being in the present moment and accepting what's there.

That's all it is. And it really is as simple as that. And I think you could take mindfulness to almost anything that you do, but specifically with photography, it works so well because you can go out and I'm not talking in just in nature. You can go out anywhere. You can stay in your bedroom and do it. You can take a photo of anything and you don't even need a camera. You can just go out and notice. And that's all you need to do. Go out, notice, see what's there, accept it for what it is and actually find the extraordinary in the very ordinary. And...

And I promise you it's there in the tiniest details. And all it is noticing, and that's it. It's a gorgeous practice. Yeah, 100%. It's beautiful. And I love that you spoke earlier about how you don't really get into the technicalities of photography. Yes, you understand bits of settings and things, but you've not really gone into it. Because the beauty of a mindful practice when it comes to photography is that it's accessible to everybody. You can use your phone. Like you say, you don't have to use anything. You can just go out and notice.

And actually that's one of the ways that I've learned to become, uh, I guess more visually pleasing and representative photographer has actually been when I just go out without my camera, I notice so much. So when I do go out with my camera, it's much easier for me to find images, but it's really interesting because of how I got into photography. And when I got into photography, I was very sucked into, I have to learn the settings. I have to have certain equipment. I have to have certain cameras. And because I started,

my work on YouTube, there was a lot of pressure in that. And now it's like I'm getting back to that essence of who I was right at the beginning, but it was just like, I saw a beautiful sunset many times a week when I lived. I wanted to connect with it, so I got a camera, but I almost got sucked into the stereotypical, I guess like the bigger world of photography. And it took me away from my essence. And now it's about me coming back to that.

Ellie (17:04.714)
actually realising that many photographers who have got lost in the technical world are also seeking that more emotional, simplified way of doing photography because there's no right or wrong way to do it. It's a creative art form. I almost find there's more meaning in photography when it starts to speak to us emotionally. When you spoke earlier about moving our emotions and finding ways to accept them and work with them, it's like this mindful photography is such a powerful way to do that.

because it's visual and we're visualizing things and then connecting with them in other senses as well, aren't we? Mm-hmm, absolutely. And I think I've heard from a lot of photographers before who have been a professional photographer and they've perhaps been paid to take photos of something that they wouldn't necessarily take a photo of if they were being creative and it can really kill that passion for photography. And I think if you do go back to where you started, and like you say, you don't need a camera and you don't need all the fancy lenses,

really, really don't. You could use a smartphone in there, God, more than good enough nowadays. Obviously, 10 years ago, it wasn't that great, but still good enough. You can really go back to where your passion is. It can really light a fire underneath your creativity and also in just how much you just love photography. I think going back to where you started is a

I mean, I'm just speaking for everyone, but maybe a lot of people do want to go because it feels better and it feels like that's what you're supposed to be doing. And it's one of the reasons why I, well, it's not one of the reasons, but there's many reasons, but I wouldn't really want to pursue a professional photography career because I would be so frightened of it ruining how much I love it. I would be scared to do that. So I try and keep it as my hobby.

to keep it as innocent as it can be. And yeah, you don't need to learn everything about photography. If you can take a picture of a leaf and you think that's beautiful, that is all you need to do. You don't need to do anything else. Yeah, definitely. And I really find it interesting that you're going almost to the next stage of learning more about this now because you're studying mindfulness and compassion, aren't you, at university? So it's like you're really starting to get into the nitty gritty of...

Kim (19:30.686)
what you're experiencing, but now understanding it from, I guess, a more academic perspective. Yeah. So I was, I actually was asked a couple of days ago, what came first, photography or mindfulness? And I actually thought, I'm not sure because photography I loved before I even knew what mindfulness was. I dabbled with it. But I think mindfulness probably made me go back to photography. So yeah, it's a tricky one. I don't know really which case, chicken and egg really.

But yes, I'm studying mindfulness and compassion at university because it's been such a transformative thing in my life. Mindful photography is the main thing, the main mindfulness practice that I do, but I do other things, informal practices, just trying to stay in the present moment as much as I can throughout my day. But yeah, I'm taking it to the next level and it's been a fascinating journey. The first thing I learned a couple of weeks in was that I was actually doing mindfulness.

kind of wrong for a while. I think I just misunderstood it. I'd never had a proper mindfulness teacher. I don't want people to think you can do mindfulness wrong because you can't really. Let's say I was making mindfulness harder for me because I was of the belief that you had to push away bad thoughts and feelings and accept good ones so that you felt good all the time.

And I thought it was almost like a route to feeling great. And it's not. So as I said before, you really have to accept the good with the bad. So you have to accept that bad. And you have to, what mindfulness does is it teaches you to live with the bad as well as the good. So I've taken that into my photography as well by taking photos of things that people might.

consider as bad photography, like bad subjects or bad conditions in photography. So rain, darkness, mist to an extent, although you can get a really nice misty photograph. But I've been trying to play with that idea of accepting the bad. I'm really scared of spiders, so I've been doing some photographs of spiders and spider webs. So I've just been exploring that little element of it.

Ellie (21:54.61)
really, I guess, not even for anybody else, just for me to really highlight to me that mindfulness is about the bad as well as the good. It's really about accepting what you're not enjoying and going, I can live with this. It's actually fine. If I just let it be there, it will come and it will go. In photography, I've been doing that a lot recently in the last year, especially through the seasons. There's certain seasons I find uncomfortable.

Personally, I find summer really uncomfortable, don't like it that much. And then, but that's a season, but also things like spiders and insects, I've always found quite scary. So I've been really like trying to do some macro photography on those. And it's been a fantastic explorative process. And it's helped me to not only accept the bad in nature, there isn't bad, you know what I mean, but also the bad in my own mind or the bad in my emotions. It's...

is kind of letting me put a label on that. So, okay, I'm feeling anxious today, or I'm feeling depressed, or I'm feeling kind of angry, maybe, or it's, it's okay, it's just the spider. It's fine. It's there. It's okay. I can live with it. So it's, it's really helped me to, so the study of mindfulness has really helped me to develop my practice. But also, I think my, my mindful photography of practice has really helped me to understand mindfulness as well. So it's going, it's going hand in hand. And then if I touch on the compassion as well.

side of it. There has been a few studies done on mindful photography, not loads, but there's been a few. It has been proven that mindful photography can in fact increase your own emotional well-being and your own self-compassion. There was actually a study done, it was a positive psychology intervention and it was using smartphone photography. They asked the participants to take photos of moments in their day that made them feel happy just on their smartphone.

And then what they had to do was look at those photos again later on in the day or after a few days. And it kind of reminded them of those happy moments, which actually in turn boosted their emotional well-being. And also it made them feel more self-compassionate, which I thought was really fascinating. And I think that's incredible sort of testimony to mindful photography and the practice.

Ellie (24:17.322)
And it's kind of like, I guess, a gratitude practice in that way as well. So you could, you could even use mindful photography to take photos of things that you're grateful for throughout the week and just do it every day. And then, but when you go to bed, you can look at those and think, oh, that was so nice today. That was good. Okay. The day as a whole, it was really difficult. Work was awful. Or I had an argument with my partner or something happened, but, but that was really nice or I had a, I don't know, I had a piece of cake or it was really good.

And I think you can use it quite well in those kind of different ways. So gratitude as well, self-compassion. Yeah. And by doing my masters, it's really made it deeper for me. And I've really found ways to really compliment both of them. So yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'm only half a year in, so ask me another year and see how I'm getting on.

No, it's exciting though. It's like you're delving in, you're learning more. And I think one of the things that's come to me, you know, I've spoken to so many different photographers on this podcast since I began from all different backgrounds with all different kind of views and opinions. But the ones that I speak to who have a more contemplative, a more mindful approach, you know, they've usually are people that really want to go within and learn more about themselves, more about life. They've usually gone through something that's been quite traumatic and difficult for them.

And you spoke earlier on about when you came out as gay and how difficult that was because you lost all your friends. I know from personal experience how confusing and scary it can be when you start the process of questioning your sexuality, but then when you actually want to come out and say to people what you're experiencing and what you're feeling, it's like that fear of rejection is huge. And I'm really sad to hear that you experienced what you did.

course it would have been a very difficult time for you, but it's almost beautiful that in that process it's made you dive really deeply into yourself, really deeply into the world. You've found yourself, but you've also found ways of coping, which means now in life, I guess if challenges come up, you have tools and resources that you can call upon to get through that. And we'd spoken before we came on as well that you're thinking about going to study counselling because you really want to, I guess, delve further into this.

Ellie (26:40.554)
give more back to people as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think, and you're right, the experience was really awful and I was already scared to be not accepted as who I was. And then when I wasn't accepted, it was almost like, well, all my fears have come true. And is that the same with everything that's going to happen to me? So it really was a wound that went quite deep. I have healed from that now and I've obviously got...

better friends now. But it was really difficult. It was really, it was really awful at the time. And obviously, and, and yes, I think through counseling, through mindfulness and through practicing photography, particularly as a practice that you're doing on your own, it really does help you to go it to really explore who you are as a person to really get to know yourself as a person.

That's what I really needed to do at the time. I didn't really know who I was before. When I finally realized who I was and accepted that, I then wanted to find out more about who I was. I pushed a lot of it down through my teenage years and my early twenties. So, yeah, I think it was a really nice way to be able to discover who I was and what I liked. And that discovery is ongoing.

So it just carries on and I think you're right, I've got the tools. Now, if something does happen to me or if something is stressful or disappointing or hard, I've always got that photography practice that I know I can fall back on. And it's also interesting, sometimes I feel like quite burnt out with work or I'm tired, I've had loads of stuff going on. I can always feel when I need to go out with my camera and I know that that's going to make me feel...

better. So I'm like, do you know what? Friday morning or whenever, I'm going to go two hours. And sometimes I won't take the dogs with me because sometimes I just want to be on my own. And it's easier sometimes without them because you can stop and look at things for longer. And I just go out with the camera and that's me with myself for a couple of hours. And me personally, I like to be in nature. That's really healing for me.

Ellie (29:03.978)
I'm in nature, I'm with myself and I'm noticing nature, noticing patterns, colors, you know, not even like a whole vista. I'm more of a macro person. I like to look at details and have a, I really like the square in my camera. I like just having that square and that's all I have to look in and that's all I need to see in that, where I, you know, there's sometimes too much going on and I like to shrink it right down into that square.

and then go even closer to something, which I find for me just helps me calm myself down, helps me calm everything down because all I have to do is look through that little square at a tiny section of a leaf or a tiny section of a tree or water or whatever. And it's interesting how I can feel that want and that need to do that when I'm having a stressful week or when I'm having a stressful day. So I know that...

going out with my camera is me. That's who I am. And that's what keeps me going. And that's what keeps me alive and healthy. And I think when you find that, like a lot of photographers, I imagine have the same experience when you find that it's the most amazing thing. You never want to let that go. So, um, yeah, I can't remember where we started, but that's what we've got.

One thing I was going to ask you about was that I noticed that most of your images are kind of zoomed in and they're very intricate parts of things. And it makes so much sense because we enhance the mindfulness experience when, rather than looking at a huge big vista, we're kind of zooming into something or playing around with a certain concept. And it's beautiful what we can create because we almost have a very intimate moment with our subjects and we really begin to see it and almost feel it and what shapes it has.

that really noticing, like you said, and zooming in, it's just, it really does enhance the experience. And yeah, it's beautiful. And I think one thing that's also great now is, you know, because of your experience and the benefit that you've got from this, you're wanting now to share much more of what you've gained, your knowledge, your experience of mindful photography. And as a result, you've just launched a new podcast called Capturing Cam podcast, the art of mindful photography. So I wondered if you could speak a little bit about that.

Ellie (31:26.314)
Yes, absolutely. So this is, yeah, the first episode actually went out today. So that's very exciting and also terrifying. But yeah, I really wanted to share and help as many people as I could with what I know, what I've learned. I'm not an expert by any means, but I've been doing it for a long time. And I just wanted to share the techniques that I use, where I go to practice, how I practice, especially...

some of the benefits that we can find in mindful photography. I'm also hoping to speak to some mindful photography experts who have written books and done some studies on it. What I really wanted to do is, it's not for any gain apart from just sharing it with people. I want people to know that photography is accessible and it's not something that you have to be like.

I went to Glencoe and I took these amazing shots using my really expensive camera and my lenses and I got this perfect thing. There's no barriers there. It's not a scary hobby to go into. All you need is your phone or really any camera really. Like I say, you don't really need a camera, but it's great if you've got one because you can look at your images, but you can just look through the square of your fingers and go and zoom in and notice things.

And, but yeah, I just want to, I just wanted to share how, how I got into it, why I get into it, what I get out of it. And also maybe to just encourage a few more people to try the practice out. And I guess it's more of a mindfulness podcast than a, than a photography podcast. There's going to be no technical stuff in there, no jargon.

nothing like that. It's more of a how to practice mindfulness with photography podcast. And I just hope that if people are interested in mindfulness in photography or both, that they might give it a listen and they might have a spark of interest there on, you know what, I'm going to go out and try that. And it doesn't matter where you are. And you don't even need to leave your house really, if you don't want to. You can do it any way you want. And I'm always envious of people like who do city photography because...

Ellie (33:46.082)
Some of them look great and I don't live in a city. I'm very rural. So, you know, I'd love to see other people's images of where they are and what they find, what they notice in their environment. I'd love to connect with people in that sphere as well. So yeah, it's in its early days, but I've got a few things coming up in there just on how to do it, why to do it. And I'm really excited to see where it goes and to see who shares with me on the podcast.

Yeah, very exciting. And so we're recording this in January, but this will probably be going out in March. So by the time this podcast goes out, I'm sure there'll be many episodes for people to tune in and listen to if that will be of interest to them, which I'm certain it will be. So I'm looking forward to it. I love listening to podcasts. So I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of topics and potential guests you have coming on. It will be exciting. Yeah, I love podcasts as well. I love listening to them.

I find myself in the bath listening to them. I really love your podcast, by the way. I was bingeing that one recently. So yeah, it's fab. You've had some fantastic people on and a lot of mindful photographers who perhaps might not label it as mindful photography I've heard on your podcast. It's been fab. Yeah, it's interesting. I think because maybe the questions I ask, it's almost like maybe some people start to question like, Oh, I didn't realize I was doing that. So

And I think it's just beautiful because there's so many technical photography podcasts out there. There has been for years, but I just, I want to learn people's stories. Like to me, where people have come from, what they've been through, what they've experienced, what they've learned is I just find stories. As human beings, if you go back to hundreds of years ago in the cave men days, they would sit around a fire and share stories. And it's like, this is kind of our essence, isn't it? Is stories.

stories we share and the openness people are, the more it connects with people. Thank you for the kind comments. It's lovely to hear that you've been enjoying it. I have. And I think even if you look at stories through photographs and even going back to mindful photography, you can use mindful photography and take a photo every day for a year. That's a story. And take a photo of everything that makes you happy.

Ellie (36:11.07)
once a day. And that's a story and that's your story. And it's an important story. And I think photography can tell so many stories, but it can also tell your own one and it can help you get to know your story. And I think that's, I mean, that's great. So it's worth a try.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I think it's always fun starting a podcast as well. Like I had no expectations for this at all. I just thought I want to connect with photographers around the world and speak to them and share their stories. And yeah, I think as podcast hosts, we get as much out of it as anything, you know, as the listeners do. It's exciting. Yeah, you get to meet loads of cool people. Yeah, I'm excited, like I say, for yours and everything. Oh, thank you. That's really kind of you. Thanks so much.

It's one of the beauties of the internet, isn't it? You know, I mean, I love face-to-face contact, but actually when you can see somebody, like, you know, we're speaking through video just now when you're talking, you can connect with people that you would never have been able to connect to, you know, in the past and from all different walks of life and all different places. And I just love how, you know, the internet's brought us together. If we stay away from the negativity of, you know, trolls and the social media addiction and stuff, actually stuff like this.

I think we need more of this content because this is what uplifts people and inspires people. And there are more people that can create podcasts or inspirational reels or inspirational YouTube videos, you know, the better of muting that negativity. Oh, absolutely. And also, yeah, there's a lot to be said for really, what's the word, like culling your feed in Instagram or wherever your social...

media is making sure that it's all positive stuff that's coming in there. It can really do wonders. I just wanted to say actually, I'm going to be speaking to Jessica Thomas and she is a mindful photographer who uses mindful photography with her clients who are grieving. She uses mindful photography to help with grief.

Ellie (38:21.078)
And her practice is absolutely beautiful. She is in America. It just reminded me when you said we can connect with these people all over the world. We don't have to, you know, on the internet it's great. She's in America and she did her PhD on mindful photography. It's a fantastic paper and it's definitely worth a read. And I've already used it in my masters. And so I will, I'll be speaking to her I think in March time, because she's got a book coming out in April on mindful photography. So that's definitely worth keeping an eye on.

Dr. Jessica Thomas, she is on Instagram, but I can't remember what her handle is. But yeah, definitely she's, she's fantastic. So particularly for grief. So, you know, there's, there's so many different ways that you can use it to overcome these, these things in your life. It's really powerful tool. Hmm. It certainly is. And I think one place that might be quite exciting to end on, you know, of course you just started your podcast, you're thinking about going into doing counseling and everything else is coming your way.

One thing I'm realising is there seems to be a lot of people now getting into offering wellness and, you know, mindful photography things. And I just wondered, have you got like dreams for the future with what you're doing? Because I feel like you've got a very clear mindset on the benefits of this. And I just, you know, in terms of maybe where do you see this going, maybe globally? Or what are your dreams for the world of mindfulness and photography moving forwards?

Oh, globally would be great. But for now, I would like to start up my own mindful photography workshops just where I am in the borders. I'd love to invite people along just to learn my practice and see how it can help them. But also as I'm doing my counselling training, I would like to eventually, when I become a therapist, incorporate mindful photography with my clients as well. I don't know how I'm going to do that yet. That will be something I'll learn later on.

I would like to use it to treat people or to help them to perhaps embrace a mindfulness practice when they feel that meditating perhaps isn't for them or they're really struggling to try and stay in the present moment or find moments of peace in their life. I definitely want to make it part of my offering when I do therapy and I would also like to do it in my local area as well. Just invite.

Ellie (40:44.118)
a few people along, which I think you do something similar, don't you, where you are? Yeah, I do. Well, I do my immersive photography weekends. So they're, yeah, it's a weekend of being in one spot. It's like a whole experience with food and everything. And it's about getting six people together. We spend the weekend together. I share like mindful photography exercises with them and then we go out of the building and we just walk around. There's a pond and some trees and some fields.

We just see what we can find based under a theme. And it's amazing because everybody goes off and photographs and sees different things and you all come back together and sit around the table and you start sharing, you know, like on the back of your camera, your phone, what you photographed. And I love getting people together for a shared experience but giving them tools that they can then go home with and implement into their own life. It's very powerful. Speaking of the photography weekends, if you've been enjoying hearing about mindful photography,

and would like to experience it for yourself. There's a few spaces left on this year's dates. Here's some words from those who have attended the weekends so far. I've just been on an immersive photography weekend with Kim. It was an amazing experience and using the techniques and exercises that Kim shared with us, it helped me connect.

and find some wonderful little images within nature. I found the mindful aspect at Markasse gave me so many tools. It's enhanced my photography and I use the tools all the time now. It's been a great opportunity to reconnect with nature and thereby my wellbeing because being connected with nature I find makes me smile and happy.

and therefore better able to cope with life's challenges. If you'd like to join us, you can find dates and details at phot forward slash photography weekends. I just think it's so exciting because this little community, I think, that's popping up everywhere, you know, I speak to Ruth Davy quite a lot. I'm sure you've heard of Ruth. She does the mic. Yes, I speak to her quite a lot. And I've spoken to other people in other parts, you know, and they all do.

Kim (42:55.138)
You know, we're all adapting the same principles, but doing our own things. But what I love is that everybody's supporting each other because I'd love to see this, like this mindful photography approach rolled out everywhere and to have practitioners and people offering it. Because I think every single community could benefit from this. And I love that you spoke there about bringing it into therapy because that's, you know, there's many therapists on the mindful photography course I did, and they were, you know, wanting to implement it into their practice because.

I've had a lot of therapy in my life and although sitting talking to somebody can be very beneficial, I always felt like I needed a practical element and it wasn't until working with therapists that do like touch or Reiki combined with that or where we're doing physical things, that was where I really was able to understand and dive deep and there's so much.

There's so much you can do with photography to help people, like you say, uncover themselves. You've experienced it, I've experienced it. And I don't know, I just feel that this is just beginning and I'm excited to see where it goes. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think another arm of therapy as well as walking therapy, and if you could, it makes it easier, it makes it easier to talk to somebody instead of just sitting face to face. Sometimes people...

find that kind of intimidating, a little bit overwhelming. So if you go out and walk with your therapist or if you're a therapist, you go out walking with your clients, it can make that really talking a lot easier because you're just walking next to them. There's other distractions going on and you can often find that you can talk more easily when you're doing something else. And I think you can definitely incorporate photography in that as well. So you're out walking, but you're also with the camera. And I think that's a really interesting arm of therapy.

hopefully we can all embrace and we can all be a part of in this in this community going forward. So fingers crossed if we will, if we will work at it, we can we can really bring mindful photography into the, into the forefront, I think. I hope so anyway. Yeah, I think it's exciting. And I think what's so beautiful is all the different styles of therapies that are starting to come out, you know, and people are starting to create and to, to combine because you know, we are all so uniquely different. And

Kim (45:10.59)
I just love that we're ending on this because I think many people still think that therapy is always just traditional counselling, but actually there's so many ways and so many different therapists and if you really look into it, you can find one that works for you. My current therapist is a counsellor, but she does Reiki, she does shamanic work, she does the gene keys and human designs. Because I'm quite a spiritual person, I'm just like...

bringing all of that in is fantastic. So yeah, yeah. And I also think both of us have shown that getting some sort of former therapy can be fantastic. And I love to top up on it now and again, because life gets, it's challenging. It does. And it always will. And we have to accept that. So it's just accepting it. And also, and I think, you know, therapy and mindfulness, trying to think outside of the box, they're

don't have to be that traditional kind of sitting down in a room practice. Both of them can be taken outside and you can really do imaginative things with them. So I think, yeah, therapy and mindfulness, they don't have to be stuck in one place. Yeah, brilliant. Well, thank you, Ellie. It's been such a privilege and pleasure to speak to you today. For people who maybe want to connect with you further or find your podcast, where can they go to do so?

Well, you can find me on Instagram where I share most of my pictures there on there, and that's at capturing.com. And you can also go to my website, which is capturing calm.co.uk. And my sub stack is capturing calm.substack.com. And you can just look up capturing calm wherever you, wherever you get your podcasts, it's on almost all of them. Um, but if it's not, let me know, but, uh, I have checks and it's on almost all of those podcasts platforms. So yeah, just capturing calm.

wherever you are and you should be able to find me. Brilliant. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Ellie. And I wish you all the best with everything you've planned for the future. Thank you, Kim. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. It's always lovely when somebody comes on the podcast and shares so openly their own journey and how photography has really helped them through that. And you can really see there in Ellie's story just how much photography has played a part in helping her through those moments.

Kim (47:29.866)
And I'm sure much of what she shared today will be of benefit to many of you. So I hope you really enjoyed hearing Ellie's story and the different sides of mindfulness. You know, I've heard many people say that they don't really resonate with the word mindfulness and they often think of it as more of the traditional methods of sitting down and meditating and things like that. But you can really see there in what Ellie shared that photography can allow us to practice mindfulness.

often without even realising we're doing it. And I'm sure many of you who already engage with photography are already doing this. And possibly hearing Ellie's story may just help you to deepen your process or become more aware of how you practice photography and the wellness benefits that it can bring you. If you've really resonated with today's episodes and you'd like to get further involved with photographic connections including joining our online community where this month we are exploring the essence of water

Or if you'd like to come to Scotland and have an experience doing mindful photography for yourself, you can find all the details to both the online community and the photography weekends at phot