Episode 34 - It sucks in the UK, too.

This week, Erica and Vanessa are joined by trans siblings Christi and Jenni from the UK!

The US and the UK seem to be battling to see which country can be the most horrible towards trans people. We talk about the intricacies of being trans and gender nonconforming across the pond.

You can find our siblings on Instagram!

Christi: @chris_tmi

Jenni: @jennsl50

Transcript

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Vanessa: 0:00

(Vanessa gibberish)... much time I double record everything just in case so, but get the voice working. Man Vanessa, you can do it.

Erica: 0:12

Everbody do your vocal glides

Vanessa: 0:14

yeah all right. Hello everybody. Welcome back to transcending humanity. This is episode 35. Now

Erica: 0:28

we're on 33. Are we on 34th? Or have met I don't know.

Vanessa: 0:32

I'm googling this shit. Right right here transcending humanity that calm, and then leaving this in episodes. This is episode 34. Wow. Who would have thought? So welcome to episode 34 of transcending humanity. Today we are joined by a couple of guests from across the pond in the UK, the UK, if you've been following the news, well, the UK and the US seem to be going head to head on who can be the most horrible to their trans community. And they are here to talk about that. And there's other stuff. Erica has a series of questions lined up for them. So I'm going to hand things off to Erica so she can get that started. And then we can get introductions and our guests. So Erica, go for it.

Erica: 1:17

Before we get rolling, shout out to Florida, FUCK YOU guys did yesterday. Was it yesterday? And Utah. Yeah. Anyways, sorry. All right. So I am pleased to introduce you all to Ginni and Christie who are joining us from across the pond in the UK, I met them on a discord that I was invited to maybe six months ago, I don't know. They're great. And we got talking about having them on an episode. So they're here to talk about what life is like in the UK as a trans person. Jenni, would you like to introduce yourself?

Jenni S: 1:56

I Yeah. I'm Jenni. I'm 50 nearly which fills me with horror. But you know, it's unavoidable. So I'm a trans woman she/her. I transitioned really late in life. In the UK, I live up in the north of England, and actually where I am is quite isolated. And I think that's something that impacts quite a few of us in different ways. So that's sort of talking about and that chance to link up with folk that's been, you know, completely life changing. For me, which is where I'm seeing yourself, obviously, and then just started to form some of those relationships is completely life changing.

Erica: 2:37

And tastic Yes, I love having gotten to know you over the last, I think two months, maybe a journal op, you're generally love your point of view on almost everything trans. So, Christi, how about you?

Christi: 2:51

So I'm Christi I'm 34. I'm from the UK. I live just outside Manchester. I'm from Manchester, UK originally, I'm currently in my very dimly lit car. And hopefully the rain isn't too loud. It's raining, basically, because it's Manchester and It always rains. And I just have managed to make it home yet. I've been out as by since about 2011. there abouts. And then I've been out publicly out of trans and in transition for about 17 months. And on hormones for about a year.

Erica: 3:38

We'd love to hear that. So shout out to people transitioning late in life. I'm 52 I came out at 50. Right. I think I'm not going to talk about Vanessa's age, that's up to

Vanessa: 3:52

her, too.

Erica: 3:53

I came out when I was 40. And even in the 30s like you know just before we jump into questions, I want to touch on something that sort of is in the air here we have a you know trans women from from different ages. And there's this narrative out there that Oh, it's too late. If you're if you're not a teenager or you're past 20 or 21 Screw that noise that is not true. You can come out whenever you feel like it's right, whether it's your 1420 430-545-6070 80 Like when the time is right for you. The time is right. So I just want to I always love to make that point. Anybody who's telling you it's too late.

Transcending Humanity: 4:31

Fuck those people, including yourself. That's right. Fuck yourself,

Christi: 4:36

especially yourself. When I was trying to I thought I was too old and it was stupid. I was such an idiot.

Jenni S: 4:43

It's in your head. I haven't been. And it's like, because I was I have children. I have a grandchild. And like you are working application you just think? No, there's no way this is a possible path for me. It is it can happen and it does happen. And I The fear of it is ridiculous because actually the reality of it in the end, once you decide to walk that path, I think is joyful. I wish that I'd have told myself that years ago.

Erica: 5:14

Same. Yeah, I mean, same right journey. I mean, it the time is the time when it happens. And we all have this voice in our heads telling us, you know, questioning gas, letting ourselves effectively into our Trans Am I not trans? And is it the right time? Do I feel secure enough, you know, whatever the rationale, like I also have a trans grandma to write. And you know, you struggle with that voice inside your head, but you also hear it so much from outside, especially from the, let's just say those that are the haves in the trans community that happened to be young and beautiful. They put the shit out there. Yeah.

Jenni S: 5:53

I remember, just, this would have been about two weeks, I reckon, after I came out. And my grandchild mum, who is very young herself, my kids and their grandchildren, my grandchildren love quite. She has a little sister, and her sisters called now and she's four years old. Now saw me for the first time after transition, she came up to me, she was like, Are you a girl now? And I went, Yeah, I am. I'm a girl. And she said, But you used to be a boy, didn't you? And I said, I used to be a boy. But I'm a girl. And she said, Oh, that's great. I've always just been a girl and then went off playing. It was difficult. It's good to know, right?

Erica: 6:40

It's crazy. Ah, yeah. I mean, you know, kids are always universally great about this. I know, we're not we're avoiding the questions I had to ask. But I'm gonna just dial in on this for a second. You know, one of the things that we hear out there in the crowd is like, Oh, well, how do I explain you to my kids? You don't have to explain this to our kids. They get it. Right, they get it. I've I've had that same experience as you Jenny many, many times. And like it gets on problem with it. It is the adults in their lives that teach them to have a problem with it. Okay, so now let's actually dive into our our officially sanctioned questions. So what I would love to know, you know, the purpose of this show is not only to introduce two new friends of the podcast, but our first guests from the UK, so I really want to sort of juxtapose the differences between the US Oh, hold on. Go ahead.

Vanessa: 7:36

We've had one from from the UK before.

Transcending Humanity: 7:41

Okay. I might have no you don't need to. I'll just just

Erica: 7:44

so it's fine. It's fine. What we need more. Hey, Byron's Shavon Oh, right. Okay.

Vanessa: 7:51

I just had to interject that. Okay. Well, now

Erica: 7:53

you've heard me off. Anyways,

Vanessa: 7:54

I know, backup.

Erica: 7:57

So to continue to draw out, tease out some of the differences between life as trans in the UK versus the US. We have on even more guests from the UK. So what would you like to relate to us? You know, what are those early days? Like? You know, Vanessa and I have sort of talked about I think that ad nauseam people probably tired of hearing about that from us. But I would love your perspective on what's that kind of coming to coming out process in the early days of transition in the UK?

Christi: 8:33

Do you want to go first, Jenny?

Jenni S: 8:35

Yet? Sure. Well, I was 47, I was very late. Obviously, you have all those thoughts. And I think, for us growing up in the 70s in the 80s, that kind of wasn't much of a word for it. And the certainly wasn't much in the way of representation. You know, the idea of being trans men, all kinds of other things, which were often ridiculed, generally not nice. And I was brought up in a court quiter, an evangelical Christian. And they were particular. Yeah. So there were particular things with that. That meant it was very, very difficult either to consider your gender, but also to consider your sexuality. So it took me a long, long time, but that first moment, the reactions that really struck me were the reactions of my wife, who were and we're not together now. But we're extremely good friends. But she just looked at me and she just went, Yeah, that figures. That was it. My kids absolutely fine. And in fact, a few months ago, my eldest came to me and said, You won't do a transition with your unassembled No, of course not. Why would I do that? And he said, well, because our relationship isn't so much better. And I think there's something about just being aligned. So yeah, For me, there were so many things relationship wise, that just started to slot into place. And the other thing I'd say from those early days is that I couldn't have predicted where it would be. And I remember my best friend saying to me, where do you think this goes? And I said, Well, I know that I'm non binary. And I might be non binary, trans feminine, but I don't know much more than that yet. And then very, very quickly, if your dominance for all those sorts of things begin to slips into place. So that's how it felt, for me, it felt like I was on a, on a path. And it just it took me where it needed to take me.

Erica: 10:40

Love that take. I mean, that sort of resonates with I think a lot of us here in the US and on the show. But you know, I grew up, I came up in relatively religious household as an early child and sort of transitioned, transitioned out of that. And but I still had all that messaging in my head. And I grew up in the deep south of the United States, where it's very religious for the country, and also had some very similar experiences with my kids who were like, Oh, our relationship is so much better. So yeah, I mean, that that kind of feels quite universal. Jenny, what about you, Christie?

Christi: 11:18

is a complicated question. Really? What was it like in the early days of coming out? Because I kind of feel like, it depends where you measure from, because I've had a lot of it's kind of been, I feel like I'm coming out all the time. It's like a constant thing. That's there's not, there wasn't any one moment where I came out. And then that was it. Like, it's this perpetual process of like having to validate yourself to people and having to kind of push to say, No, this is actually who I am. And reaffirm yourself constantly in the eyes of others. And I actually came out to a GP when I was 18. But I went to a GP, and I said, Hey, because I've had these feelings for a long time, when I was little, I'd add negative experiences. You know, I start my hair in particular feminine way, I remember my dad saying, change it like a girl. And those kind of like negative kind of the negative association with the idea of looking like a girl kind of set in quite early. So I went to a GP once about a team said, Hey, I think I think I might be trans actually. And they said, Well, we actually think he's depressed. So we're gonna give you antidepressants. And that'll solve the problem come back in six months, if you still feel the same. So I came back in six months, I said, I still kind of still kind of feel so gonna feel the same. Oh, well, we'll up your dosage of antidepressants, because that'll fix it. That'll make it better. So it was like this constant battle of having to fight your way through. So inevitably, it didn't go away, because it doesn't. And when I was 29, I went back to a GP, but this time, I'd spoken to other trans people, I understood the process I knew I needed to do, I went with, like, the NHS guidance for trans care printed out the form that they needed to fill in, print it out, I filled in the bit, I need to fill it in. I took it and I said, I want you to refer me to a gender identity clinic, please. And they said, Oh, you need a diagnosis. I said, No, I don't. That is not the guidance, as of 2004. Here is the NHS guidance printed off for your convenience, I filled in the form that you need to send off, you can fill in the rest of it, and then send it and they were like, Oh, okay. And they did. So they sent it. And all kind of got dealt with in the background or that there's like the social coming out. So telling my parents telling my partner telling friends, and I still feel like I'm still still in the middle of it is it feels like it's still ongoing. And it can be quite hard. It's a great feeling. And when I'm in like accepting spaces, and I'm in spaces with trans people, and I'm in a community where I'm just gendered correctly, and I don't have to validate myself, and I'm just taken as I am. It's fantastic. It's the best feeling in the world was I feel complete in a way that I never felt before. And it feels like I'm actually feel present. I don't feel disconnected from everything. And I don't feel like a passenger in my own life. And that's amazing. So yeah, it's just this is a process. And I can't I can't point to a single moment of that was when I came out. And that was it. Really makes sense.

Erica: 14:26

Yeah, I love that analogy of feeling like a passenger in your own life. I mean, I think that that describes that describes it really well for me, and I'm sure quite a few other people just sort of feel like life was happening to me, and I'm just going from trauma to trauma, trying to work my way through it. And

Christi: 14:45

not really understand why things weren't working either because things weren't working. And I was just like, why, why, why? Why can I make this work? And it's just because I didn't really feel President in. In those moments I didn't feel like it was I was making those choices, I was feel like they would be made for me, because that's what was expected.

Erica: 15:11

I love the piece that you talked about about your second trip in to get the referral that you needed, like the AVID the self advocacy, educating yourself, knowing what you need to do having that form ready to go and correcting them on the guidance. I think that's that's a really powerful message. At least here, I assume also there as well, right? I can't tell you the amount of times with with my GP and even I have a new doctor for my trans medical care. And she's better than the one I had before. And I can't tell you the amount of times I would have to correct his information to him. Where's the new? And she's like, oh, yeah, no, we do it this way. And like, those are the reasons. And I think if you are going to pursue medical trends, and frankly, any any aspect of transition, you have to really inculcate that sense of agency you have in yourself, this is not an easy process, it's very obvious skated, you have to pursue it, and you more often than not have to know more than the people you're talking to.

Christi: 16:13

Absolutely. And it's very frustrating. Because here, I mean, in the US different parts of us, I'm sure it's similar, and it may be different in other areas, we're here, essentially, gender healthcare is devolved from the core NHS, with the intention of it being experts that deal with gender related care. But the problem is, it's gay kept by people who have no training and no expertise and no understanding of gender based care. And I'm often having to explain to them, what should be happening, what they should be doing, what the next steps are. And it's much better now, because I'm under the care of a gender identity clinic. So my prescriptions and my care is completely handled by them. They are experts, and they do know what they're doing. But that initial hurdle is really daunting. And especially when you're younger, I know when I first approached the GP, and I was kind of in my late teens, early 20s. And you have a degree of trust in your doctor, that that what they're telling you is true. And the reality is that they're not doing it intentionally to undermine you, but they don't know what they should be doing. And if you have that blind faith in them, you might not get the care that you you need. And so you have to go in kind of with your eyes open, which is quite hard, actually.

Erica: 17:31

Yeah. And since we're here, my next question is really about NHS, like, how does the system work there? But before we dive in, you know, I think in the US, it depends on where you live, each each state within the country sets their own, they have we have guidance that's across the whole country that they can choose to follow to varying degrees, where I live in the DC metro area is an informed consent. State. Right, so that means Okay, so I wasn't sure if that was true for you, for instance, that means I can go to my GP, and I don't need a referral, I can I can go see a gender therapist who specializes in that. And I don't need that referral. And I can say, I would like to start, you know, feminizing HRT as a trans woman. And they're like, Okay, right, you you don't need the permission in some states, but in other states, it is very gay cat. Vanessa, do you know of any other places that are like much more rigorous about that here in the States?

Vanessa: 18:33

I don't personally know. But I mean, I'm sure Florida is.

Erica: 18:36

Oh, yeah. Well, it's very difficult anyplace where there's a caravan. Right. Yeah. So for so for us. It can be you get that referral from a, you know, probably a psychiatrist, psychologist level, you know, mental health practitioner, maybe you get that from your GP, if you live in a state where it's informed consent, you basically just signed paperwork? What's the process like there? And is it a very universal process? Or is it depending on the region that you're in.

Christi: 19:04

So it's a very universal process, but it's not applied consistently. And as I said, it's devolved. So Jenny can probably explain more about the kind of informed consent model related to private gender care, purely speaking from NHS perspective, essentially, the process is your first port of call is your GP. They refer you to a gender identity clinic. Depending on where you are in the country that would dictate which clinic you go to, you'd then be on a waitlist for that clinic, which are measured in years. And if you are fortunate enough to be in one of the areas where there is one of the devolved pilot programs currently running, which are intended ultimately to replace the gender identity clinic model, and the medical model model, which is currently used, which was established in 1966. Before even gay marriage was legalized, so it's a bit outdated, particularly for non binary gender identities. So then you you get you can transfer onto their waiting list and their waiting lists are shorter, they have a much more kind of modern approach to gender care. So I'm with a clinic called see magic, which is for Cheshire and Merseyside. There's one in Manchester called Indigo. And each one of them has its own approach to gender related care, which is in semantics case, it works to your GP, they essentially are your care Navigator, and they manage it through your GP Indigos case they effectively replace your GP. So and that the reason that they're all different is that the idea is that they see which one works best. And then that's what they will use. But there isn't any plan for implementation on that really, or any anything like that. But then if you can't wait, which most of us can't, then you do what Jenny did, and what I did, in fact, as well, but Jenny's pre bestest, explain as well.

Jenni S: 20:57

It's really, really hard, isn't it? When I went to see my doctor, I was referred to a clinic called Porter Brook, which is the NHS clinic in Sheffield. And I'm still on the waiting list. And I haven't yet had my first appointment. And I know people who have been on that waiting list for far longer than me 456, even seven years and aren't getting anywhere with it. And so there isn't that consistent practice there isn't that consistent care. And not only has that care been pathologized and medicalized over a number of years, but it's also been turned into a political game as well. Yeah. And that makes progress really hard. Because there are so many politically vested interests in how that care works, particularly for underage teens in this country. The that word that you use Erica and Christie as well, gatekeepers, that, for me, that's been the issue. It's like, what can I possibly do so that I can avoid all the gatekeepers? And I understand how lucky I am that I could do that. That's rare. Most people are not in a position where they can avoid those gatekeepers. We do not have that model of informed consent in the same way you've described in the state that you live in. And the only way that it could be informed consent is if you pay your money, you know, you go private, right, okay, this is this is why I'm, you're gonna listen to me, and believe me, and then you're gonna give me the care that I need. And it's only really in the last six months that my NHS doctor has now taken over that backcare. And that took quite a bit of convincing again, as you know, Christie described taking the guidance in the paperwork and sitting down saying this says,

Erica: 22:49

so what is private care mean? Right for us? I when I think of private care, I'm like, is that like, our version of insurance? Is that what is private care? Yeah,

Jenni S: 22:58

it's not insurance. It's not an insurance model. So private care, here? Well, it can be an insurance model, actually. But in the case of gender affirming private care, it's basically companies like gender GP, and you pay a charge to be to be seen by them, you pay a monthly fee. Know, they can send you your blood testing, hormone blockers and things like that. So that was it. That was what I did to begin with, ya know,

Christi: 23:28

the main providers that in within the UK, there aren't many, they're actually offering that the big one is gender care in London. And even then, because of the demand, because of the wait list for the NHS, I contacted them in 2020. And I'm yet to hear back from them. So even even with even with the private model within the UK, just being able to pay doesn't necessarily mean you can access the care.

Erica: 23:56

Okay, that is wild. So, you've been going to gender GP, right, Jenny, you've accessed hormones and various other types of affirming care, and you have yet to be seen by the NHS in multiple years. Yeah,

Jenni S: 24:11

I've not I haven't Yeah, they've not done anything at all. So my diagnosis is through gender GP, I needed the diagnosis in order to do the whole legal bit, which we can probably talk about at some point. Yeah. That's coming up soon. Yeah, but the at the NHS No, other than my doctor now prescribing and the only reason my doctor is now prescribing is because I basically booked a flight went to Thailand and had gender confirmation surgery and did what I needed to do. And then came back. And then at that point where you're going to have to give me an HRT next my body ain't making this stuff on its own. Australia.

Vanessa: 24:49

Force their hand. Hey, I have a pussy. Now it's time to make that shot bitch.

Erica: 24:55

Yeah, exactly. But exactly.

Jenni S: 24:58

That's you But that's no way to run into it. It's just not

Erica: 25:06

true. We do have a few services like that in the in the US a pay to play system if you will. It was loom one of them Vanessa's loom

Vanessa: 25:19

and I are me maybe remember

Erica: 25:26

where it's it's the same model gene right where you you pay a monthly fee and then you you, you know they give you telehealth appointments typically right? And you get your hormones and your blood work via them. Right. So I think my eldest daughter is trans I think that's who she uses because she where she is there's just not a trans clinic nearby.

Vanessa: 25:48

Because they're going after them too, though. So who knows how long they're last?

Erica: 25:51

Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, in the US primarily, people are accessing care via their insurance or their their workplace, if they have insurance, right? It depends on the type of employment you have the type of income you have, right. So it can be quite hard for people to afford that care in the US like, like, for me, for example, when I go to get my injectable estradiol, it cost me like $10 for three, three months supply. But if I had to buy that over the counter, it's like 200 us for that.

Vanessa: 26:25

And every state is different, too. So like I live in Ohio, and for a long time, it's really hard to get gender affirming surgery here covered by insurance, there's only I have the one insurance company that actually covers it. The others are supposed to cover it by law. But you know, they're big enough that it's cheaper for them to just buy the lawsuit than it is to actually do the surgeries. So I was able to get it done. But it's very hard to get the surgeries done in Ohio under insurance. But other states, you can get it done quite easily. There's other states that you can get facial feminization surgery like Washington state, you can get it done there, I can't get it done in Ohio. So

Christi: 27:08

it will not cover Facial Feminization Surgery top surgery. And it won't won't won't do those. And it offers it does offer bottom surgery in the long term, but only via one meth foot. So there's no kind of choice in that. It's, it's there's only like one game in town for doing that if you're going through the NHS route. So there are limiting factors on the NHS with with any surgeries or any gender affirming surgeries. And the other thing with the gatekeeping aspects as well, just to clarify. At the point you are seen by gender identity clinic, many of us have already taken these steps anyway. They would, before they would prescribe you anything before they would prescribe you blockers before they were prescribing hormones before they would take you seriously. They would say okay, you're now under our care, go away and live in your preferred gender for a year. And then we'll revisit this. So there's an expectation that you would have no gender affirming whatsoever. And then assume the gender you feel you align with, which is an incredibly daunting, horrendous idea. Which almost feels like is intended is like torture, it feels like it feels like it's no I'm barely kind of comfortable presenting how I want now I am infinitely happier in my body. And in myself than I was. And myself. I still started my feel like a work in progress. And I'm like a year in. So the idea of having to do all that prior is Yeah, horrendous

Erica: 28:49

here, that the whole lived experience clause, I think was gotten away with done away with for quite a while back, it was very common in the 80s and 90s. And now it's I think, as of maybe the mid 2000s. They got they got rid of that here. But you did have to prior to the most recent version of W path, right? You did have to have a sustained experience of dysphoria, right over a period of time that you had to prove out through through therapy. Right. And so, we have different types of gatekeeping. But obviously, it's an issue everywhere. Right. But that just brings us back to you know, why do national governments choose to infringe upon people's bodily autonomy? Right? If I can choose to have a nose job without consent? Why can I choose to start the hormones that fit who I am without consent? Exactly right. Or without someone else signing off on it. Okay. Alright, so on to our next question. We really would kind of like to touch on the differences in the legal process. For you, all right. So, you know, here it's there's a relatively straightforward process you follow, you do have, you know, you do have to pay attention to the legalities in your state. But you also have to pay attention to the some laws at the national level as well. So while you can change your national identification, what we call our social security number, relatively easily and select your gender at will, and acquire a passport where you do that same, your ability to update your identification at the state level is totally predicated upon the state that you live in, let alone updating something like your birth certificate. So for us, the process can be quite difficult to suss out because you have the federal level, and then the state level that makes that much more difficult. What about free? Well,

Christi: 30:51

well, the here the one thing I would say, that was incredibly easy, was the first step changing your name, and changing a name here, you there are a couple of avenues to do it. The most commonly used and the simplest is via depo. And essentially, what you do is you download a form, which is pre formatted with particular wording, you put your dead name in particular places, you put your actual name in several other places, and you have two witnesses who've known you for a period of time who don't live with you sign it. And that's it, you're done. So you can then send that off to the DVLA for driving licence the government for passport, you know, your bank, and that is an official document that's absolutely 100% legal and valid, and you can update your name immediately, straightaway, now, today very easily, and part of the admin aspect of it, which everyone has to do. And then finding out, I forgot my student loan, dammit, some of the thing you've got to update. Apart from that aspect of it super easy. And where it comes to be more complicated, is updating your gender marker on things like your passport on your driver's license on your birth certificate. And for that, you would need a gender recognition certificate. And in order to qualify for gender recognition certificate, you would have needed to live in your gender for the next two years with documentation dating back over that period with your name as it as it currently is, on that documentation to prove that you have essentially lived within your assumed gender for a fixed period of time. And then you can apply for a gender recognition certificate. There's no other kind of medical requirements per se, as far as I'm aware

Jenni S: 32:56

that they do they do need your diagnosis. Yeah, many two bits. So they need they need the diagnosis itself. And then a confirmation letter from your GP.

Christi: 33:08

Yeah, yeah, congratulated that you that you are unlikely to D transition, I believe is like a kind of like, yes, this person has transitioned. And yes, this person intends to live in their gender. Forever. Okay.

Erica: 33:24

So for for you all, it's it's a process that just takes time. Right, like getting the legalities of changing your name are relatively straightforward, if not full of administrivia. The rest is documenting lived experience where you could update that gender marker, is that correct?

Christi: 33:40

Yes. Yeah.

Erica: 33:42

So for us, the process starts with, you know, starts with a legal name change. Right. So changing my name to Erica totally depends on the state I lived in the state that I live in, I fill out a form, I have to go get it, you know, I have to have my, my, my someone nearby, sign it like my partner, I believe. And then I have to go to a bank or some other legal legalized institution and get a stranger to prove that, yes, this form is a legal document, though. And then from there, I take it to my local court, my local magistrate and basically had the paperwork. A judge takes a look at it, signs off on it. And you know, I got it back in three weeks, but in other places, you may actually have to appear in court. Right. So, Vanessa, is that was that the process that

Vanessa: 34:29

you had? Yeah, in Ohio, it's been ended Ohio. It's down to not just the state it's down to the county. It's down to the individual judge. Like in my county, the judge is pretty anytrans She won't even she won't authorize gender marker changes on birth certificates even though she's supposed to by law. But I had to go to an in person hearing and she digs deep into the backgrounds of everybody she goes way in. It's pretty detailed. I wasn't allowed to change my name until after my bankruptcy was cleared up. by. So it depends on the judge, there's a lot of people that have a lot of trouble changing their names in Ohio, just because if they have a judge that is, frankly, a Republican, it can be hard. I was able to do it, but I wasn't able to seal my name change, which I wanted to do. So.

Erica: 35:20

Okay. Yeah. And then, you know, so the next step for us is, once you have those legal documents, you know, based on how hard your state decides to make it, then you apply for a new social security number with the federal government, right. And that drives everything, like you got to have a bunch of copies of that legal name, order, and your associated number, once you do that, then you can get the passport. And once you have your social security number and your passport done, you really, it really becomes a much easier, easier process. From there, it depends on the institution you're going to. And the great thing about those for the US at least, is that you can choose the gender that you are without proof. Right? So my passport says female, my social media numbers as female, in the state that I live in Virginia, my driver's license says that, but if I were living in the state that I'm from, I wouldn't be able to have a driver's license that says that because they require gender confirmation surgery in some places, right? So it can be quite difficult. But yeah, you know, but from then on, it's like, okay, you got to talk to your bank, you got to update your credit card, you got to update your student loans, you got to update your, your, whatever your car payment is, or your house payment, like it, you know, that just becomes a process. And I found that some places made it quite easy in some places we don't like really difficult. But I think, you know, large institutions in the US, especially those that run at the national level really wants to help you through this process. It is our local states, the cities that we live in, that choose to get in our way. Yeah,

Christi: 36:55

the other layer of complexity as well, which I'd imagine is probably similar in the US, I'm not sure is, again, because our entire process is based on a medical model, from 1966. There wasn't a whole lot of concepts back then of non binary gender identities, so it doesn't really accommodate them. So if you go to your GP and want to see feminizing care, then and you say my pronouns, are they them, they would be very, very reluctant to even entertain the idea. Now for myself, my title isn't Max, my pronouns are they she, you know, I definitely kind of fall far, far, far more in the woman category than the kind of androgynous category, the one thing that I'm definitely not is not a man. So the feminizing care is essential and important for that. And, but the fact that I can essentially kind of tick all the boxes to fall into the category of a binary trans woman, from the NHS perspective does me a massive favor, because I get care. I know other people who don't tick those boxes, you essentially have to follow a script to even be considered. Because if you if you went and said I am, I don't have bottom dysphoria, I don't experience, you know, X, Y, Zed, I don't take I take half the boxes, but not all of them, then it becomes a very difficult thing to even begin the process of transition, really through it through the NHS, and

Vanessa: 38:39

everyone has their own experience. You know, it's, it's, yeah,

Jenni S: 38:45

the irony of that is that you've got people trying to get the care that they need, and then jumping through all those hoops to get it. And so not actually being able to be authentic, because you've got to say, Well, we I did this when I was two and this when I was five, and I've been feeling Yes, I really wanted to be able to and I couldn't have done this, that I wanted to be able to go to GP, whatever, and just say, I'm 47 I've decided to be a woman. That's it, you don't actually need to know anything else. You don't need to dig any deeper. And I think just listening to everybody speak, there is something that's so exposing about this whole system, that we have to expose parts of ourselves to other people's judgement. And you know that that's kind of hard enough anyway, but when Pete does the same, and I think Christy and I were talking on the discord server last week about this idea of state sanctioned abuse of a minority. And I really think that's present in so much of our system in the US in the UK that the state can basically say we are going to legislate to completely undermine do away with clear out I have proposed Should have our population because we've decided we don't like them very much. And that then gives the green light, I think, to that rise in abuse, and we,

Christi: 40:11

it's that stigma that's associated with it, I think it needs it needs to go because they, I mean, again, I was talking to Germany the day and I was I was we were talking about when I, when I first kind of came out, and they actually tell people, one of my cousin's is trans. And she sent me a card, which just say, congratulations, really happy for you, you know, good luck on your journey here for you every step of the way. And it was really affirming, it felt amazing. And one of the reactions that I got from a lot of people around me who were supportive, in principle was, that's weird. You know, why did she do that? That's a strange thing to do. And it's, I think, the coming out and finding yourself should be a good thing. And it should be embraced and encouraged. And it should be positive experience. But we're going through this entire process. And we are second guessing what people are thinking about us, we feel like very self conscious with what we're going into every situation, and what's the vibe? What are you thinking? How do you feel about trans people? What's your perspective? Do you think trans identities are valid, and an even in a medical context that's happening, where we're having to kind of almost second guess ourselves, so we can't, like we're trying to be authentic, and just be transparent and say how it is. Or then, you know, you say the wrong thing. And it's, uh, you know, Ryan it down and you feel judged, you're feeling judged all the time, for just being who you are. And it just needs to go.

Jenni S: 41:43

It's so true. Our identities, right, wherever they fall, are up for judgment in a whole variety of public spheres of economically, politically, in terms of the job market, and in this country at the moment massively in terms of education. And the advice that's coming out to schools, essentially, potentially, although this is only in the early stages at the moment, and it's, it's basically a kind of survey that you can respond to, but what they're intending is that teachers would have to out questioning children to dangerous, and it's so hard to get anything less so but I work in education. And, you know, I've worked alongside kids of all kinds kids who are questioning their gender and their sexuality and this stuff's on the internet. Now, in ways it wasn't when some of us were growing up. But the state of the game is sanctioning that abuse, it's saying we are going to treat these children in a way that is potentially extraordinarily harmful for them. And I think sometimes in the trans community, you know, here this idea about people having blood on their hands, but actually, that's not far fetched. And it's not a dramatic statement. There are people who are no longer with us who would be had circumstances politically, economically, educationally been different. Yes.

Transcending Humanity: 43:18

Many people. Yeah, too many.

Erica: 43:22

Yeah. No, it's It's, it's, it's quite a problem. Right? You know, it goes back to something you said Christie about constantly outing ourselves, having to go to legal institutions, medical institutions, to out yourself and say, This is who I am, and hoping that it goes well, to your workplace, to your friends, to your family, who are like, Oh, that's kind of out of the blue. Well, dude, I'm sorry, I don't tell you about all the trauma going into my life bit about being forced to be a person. I'm not I don't really talk about that workplace. But I would love for you to not be like, well, that's weird. Yeah,

Christi: 43:57

right, just a shouldn't there shouldn't be that judgment. And there shouldn't be an expectation of that the whole kind of assumed sis and assumed heterosexual until proven otherwise, kind of mindset is quite dangerous, because it's not the default. And you know, I was a queer kid. And I was brought up by parents who had, who were great parents, and loving parents and lovely people who had no idea how to raise a queer kid at all. And it it, it kind of instills all this fear and anxiety to where, you know, representation is so important and normalizing these processes is so important. And feeling okay to be yourself in whatever space that'd be work or social settings or family settings or whatever it is, should be totally normal because people shouldn't live with all this shame about who they are, and feeling feeling guilty for it. I mean, I remember telling one of my friends the best is probably the best reaction I had from anybody when I came out was one of my friends. I told him I'd known him for like 15 years, I think. Okay, so I He came out in a letter actually. And I gave him you read it. And you read it and looks at me went, Ah, thank God, I thought it was going to be something bad. And it felt so good because I was like, because he just, he just thought he was really worried about me. And the reaction was the idea that like, this is actually a good thing. It's like, oh, what are you worried about this far, this is fine. Like was, was so brilliant. And that's just You just should be able to do that in any context. So you shouldn't.

Erica: 45:31

But I don't think most people get that.

Transcending Humanity: 45:33

Right. We

Erica: 45:34

all know people we've had, we've had our negative experiences by being people who are out in public. And well, it's amazing to have that one person like, well, that's, that's not a problem. I'm so happy for you. There are people that are not that way. And this is where the donor hand starts. Not our hands, but on people's cancers to show up. Right. And, you know, it's it's a really, I don't think this community really gets the gutting, I think our siblings that are that are queer, gay, by Pan or whatever, have a sense of that in their own comings out right. But to have to reveal yourself in such a deeper, seeded revealing way, is something that most people don't have to experience in their lives right now. Oh, and I, I don't I think that the SEC community really misses that. It can be quite a damaging and traumatic process. I remember Mike coming out which which I did over a period of like two months. And involve, like 400 people, between friends, family and work associates, just gutted me. And I had zero, like one kind of lukewarm experience and zero bad experiences, but the anxiety of going to the doctor for for the first time or, or going to my GP, the person, I'm then going to my to my trans care specialist. So I was like, oh, man, I have to prove to him that I'm trans, or coming out to my mom, or my brother, or my, my partner's family or coming out the 200 people at work because I was quite a visible person in my role. That was almost as distressing as the run up to, I'm trans and it's time to do something about it.

Jenni S: 47:20

I can totally resonate with that. I was in a school supervisor, and my line manager mu. And one day, I was on a zoom call like this. And the top half of me at that point was dressed male because nobody knew. And the bottom half was doing just what I feel happy doing. And I'd made a cup of coffee, and I'd forgotten. So I got up to get this cup of coffee. And just Yeah, so my line manager, she phoned me later on the day, and she said, You know, I think you just might need to come out. So they scheduled and this was in the middle of COVID. They scheduled me back to that Zoom calls with each one of my colleagues. I was petrified. I need me to have been there. But yeah. And you mentioned the trauma that you're coming out again, and again. And again. And again. And again. Exactly as Christie says, it just it doesn't end. And then it was 240 schools. And I remember. Yeah, I remember the date that email was sent. And it was sent centrally. And then watching the inbox, everything popping in. And I was glued to it. Probably 48 hours straight. And we had maybe 150 emails back. All positive, they were non negative. And most rotary actually not just this is okay. Wow, this is wonderful. The reality of the reaction often feels quite different to what you read, I think in the paper, what you see in the media, I do believe still, but on the whole people want to be decent human beings.

Vanessa: 49:03

I think I've had it too.

Erica: 49:05

Yeah, I really agree with that, in my, in my experience, I have found that when they come face to face with the transfer, I'm typically the first trans person they've met and interacted and talk to, right, whether it's in the workplace, or it's at the grocery store, or whatever. People are generally okay, and some are quite lovely. And some just ignore me. And I really have only had a negative comments online in my experience. Now. I absolutely know trans people in the states that have had negative comments to their face by some of the worst people. I think by and large. People are generally accepting the question like there are some people that we're never going to win over and I'm not even going to try. I think our problem today lies in the institutionalized discrimination that we all face as trans people what happens at the institutional level but also in that accepting but kind of apathetic about it. Right? You don't I mean, like, it's those people, they're like, Well, I don't have a problem with you if you don't have a problem with me, that's not the same region

Christi: 50:13

is the region of harm. Yes, yeah, it's the region beta paradox where things aren't quite bad enough to do something about it. But they're bad enough to make everybody's lives miserable. So the people that aren't affected by it kind of go, it could be worse. So they don't really do anything about it, because they feel like there's other more important issues, but then it becomes quite insidious, then because what starts quite small can undermine, it can grow, and it can undermine, it can embolden transphobes, day to day. So we've seen it with comments made by politicians in the media, media coverage and negativity in the media, we try and kind of rationalize it to ourselves all the time in the UK, and within the trans community as it's not going to materialize into anything. It's just a few minorities, who are your vocal minorities who are just spouting very hateful rhetoric, but the reality in day to day is that the people who kind of harbor those ideas, kind of feel like it's giving them permission to go out and spread that. And, you know, we've, I've, in my local town, I have to take down transphobic posters on a fairly regular basis, we have one of our local churches is very transphobic. And he's quite vocal talking, I took down pride posters and things when pride was on. And these people shouldn't feel like it's okay to publicly discriminate and post, you know, very derogatory, very hurtful, very harmful, very dangerous things in the public in town, brazenly, but they're, they're being kind of almost told it's okay to do this by national media, with the coverage that they know the way that they're spreading the the negative messages, and

Jenni S: 52:02

by our politicians as well. You'll hear this really often, politicians will say, I am I'm the voice of the people. That is that sort of almost Trumpian rhetoric, really. Are you hearing that all the time here as politicians shift ever to the right, because they think that's where their bases, they think that's where the votes are going to be? I still I mean, I have to be optimistic and just go, No, that's not what this country represents. But yeah,

Erica: 52:37

I think I think that's one of the more alarming things, right? We expect that in countries that are in emerging economies that aren't first row countries, but we think about the UK and the US, you think, okay, these are two democratic countries that lead the world in in humanitarianism and the rights of their people and fighting for democracy across the world. And here, we hear we have at home quite a few problems with the rise of nationalism. Right? I mean, that's, you call it out the rise of Trumpism. Right? This this idea that we, that other people now, pace, it's a paying industry, thanks to news outlets, magazines, the fact that politicians in general need to woo over certain aspects of their constituency. And depending on where you are, there might be more of those people in their lived reality, I think for many is that there's what we hear on at the political level, there's what we hear on the internet. You know, by and large, it's not as bad. I'm not saying there aren't bad experiences that people have, and we aren't places that are just absolutely terrible. Of course there are. But I think the reality is, is that most of the population is like, well, it doesn't really affect me. Yeah. So I don't have a problem with it. But that also means they don't do anything to push back against it. Right. And right now it's paying. And there's a really interesting study that I cite a lot. Probably, this is the third time on this podcast where I'm going to do it again, which is in periods of national or global crisis. So we just rolled out of COVID It's still going on, by the way. affected nations or globally depending on how largest were war to World War One, the attacks in America of on 911 Drive a sense of nationalism after that, because we start to pull with him, we get conservative, we really protect our borders, we really start to think about oh, we've got to look out for ourselves because something just major just happened. And it's it's a really a well documented study that shows that in these periods of times, politically, we become a far more conservative, because we feel like we need to look out for ourselves and what rises with that is racism, sexism, anti feminism, like all of those things become real We rise up and become a popularized topic because that nationalism is literally typically led by white sis males who are protecting their territory and protecting the turf. For goodness sakes, in the Americans in the United States, we're dealing with people worried about the great replacement where there's not enough white people. This is a topic that's happening within our borders, which is just a wild thing that happens. So I think we're in this state of it pays for politicians to be this way, that the people that are just assholes that see themselves and Trump on the screen are able to be loud, because they feel empowered and emboldened by it. Whereas I think the average citizen is, you know, if you ask them, have you actually ever met a trans person? If you've seen one in the bathroom? Their answer is gonna be oh, well, no, I'm just parroting what I'm hearing. But they're not going to say that to you. Because they can only feel like that quiet voice inside, is allowed to come out.

Vanessa: 55:56

That's why when I was my plan for running for office, my platform, I was not going to play for my trans rights, because people don't care about trans rights, I was gonna play for my child. Because if I applied for my child's rights on trans rights, I wouldn't have gotten elected, you know, who's crazy. But

Christi: 56:13

I think that's, I think that's something that's quite reassuring, as well as a lot of the general public now, because it's kind of gone on for a while, in the UK. You know, what was it six months, we're seeing across the living crisis, a housing crisis, you know, that we're still feeling the repercussions of COVID. employment, unemployment is high Food Bank usage has gone up significantly under the current government. These are the issues that people care about. And now that, you know, when they keep hearing these transphobic, this transphobic rhetoric from people in government particularly focused on trans women, and a lot of people are sitting and saying, what you're not doing, you're not actually tackling any of the issues. You were just getting frustrated with the government now and just saying, Well, no, we don't care about that. We care about these other things. So there, there is a general apathy towards it. But they're also now recognizing that this is just a distraction tactic from the actual issues that people care about day to day. And they are getting wise to the to the kind of wolf whistle politics that's being played out in government, and in the national media. And they are actually pushing back against it and how that's reflected in, in the election when it comes next. In the tail end of the year.

Vanessa: 57:33

The US House had the least productive year, in 100 years last year, you know, and they're supposed to Ohio House was the same way. It was least productive since the since the 50s. What are they doing? They're not representing people. The

Christi: 57:49

thing they talk about is talking about trans women in women's wards in hospitals. But then the NHS statistics come out for it and say, well, we've never had a complaint in the entire history, the NHS against trans women and trans women's never not once does not one example. And you're you're pushing this as an issue. But but within parliament, there are like I couldn't quote the exact numbers, but there are many, many, many sexual harassment complaints against people and your politicians who are pushing this rhetoric it's themselves under Yeah, exactly themselves are under investigation in in genuine, you know, legal cases, which will probably go to court at some point. And yet they are pushing the rhetoric that you know, these people that are other than what your lived experiences are they're the problem and they should be your focus.

Vanessa: 58:39

Redirection and projection.

Erica: 58:41

Yeah, distraction politics, right. And politics that is focused on obstruction instead of for the public good. That's that's the area that we've been in, in the United States since I think Brock, Obama's second term, you know, 2020 12. And it's really led us to where we are today. And I know that quite a few countries around the world have watched this imperative this as well as having their own versions, like the rise of dictatorship again. Good Lord. This is what World War Two was about people. Yeah. So, okay, one last question, because I know we're coming up on time. We've talked about we wind up talking about sort of the politics at at stake here, relatively the same, just sort of different lenses, right. But I'm just really curious in terms of the experience that you have in the UK versus what we what we have here in good old America. And by the way, America is apostrophe M er ICA there's no a there. What do you guys recognize is like, oh, that's kind of an American thing versus how we did I don't know if there is something like that. I just thought it'd be interesting question to sort of draw, throw out between the four of us

Christi: 59:59

I think so one thing I do think that is fundamentally different between the UK and America is our sense of humor. I think in the UK, we are quite self deprecating. And we are capable of laughing at ourselves in a way that we rarely see in our American counterparts. So I think a prime example of this, although I'm not a fan of the show, myself, is the the UK, the American versions of the office now, say what you will about the cast and the actual plots, which I'm not again, I don't really watch. But when you look, if you compare it to the UK, one is quite, it's very self deprecating. It's quite sad, in some ways, because it's, it's, the entire cast is kind of very down on themselves and very kind of somber, and we can laugh at, like how pathetic we are as individuals. But then when you look at the American one, it's all very outward facing humor, and it's free kind of thing out towards the, the people and the events and laughing at things and laughing at events is more practical comedy and more. Yeah,

Vanessa: 1:01:12

I look at Red Dwarf as perfectly as self deprecating, because it's the entire show, you know, so?

Christi: 1:01:19

Yep.

Erica: 1:01:21

Yeah, interesting, that you call out there? What is effectively American exceptionalism? Right, this whole thing that I mean, you notice that so that were brought up with like, you can be anything, you're the greatest in the world. And so, so many of us reflect that, right. Some of us are self deprecating, and can laugh at themselves. I certainly laugh at myself all the time. But it is not something that we do as a nation, self reflection is something we do as a people about an event that happens, right. You know, so definitely, there's, that's different. I've always loved British comedy, because I love because I've always made fun of myself. And I just see myself in British comedy quite a bit. So

Jenni S: 1:02:05

something isn't there in accommodate. But you know, you watch the shows, and it's an American audience versus a UK audience. And there's a sense of just energy in a US audience and people thing, and they're shouting and cheering, and all of that. And we want a little bit more reserved, perhaps in the UK. But I do think there is something we can learn from the US in this regard. And I'm sort of bringing it back to the trans experience in that, quote, I'm, I went to town recently, and it was a get together with trans people, non binary people. And there was a woman there, and she must have been similar to me right at the start of her journey. And it's the first time she'd been out in town. So she got dressed up, she looked amazing, she looked fantastic. But she was shaking, she was visibly shaking, and find it sort of that sense of being accepted and all of that. And a bit like Christie said at the beginning, we go through all these repeated coming outs as we get ourselves as we get to grow as we get to grow into our new bodies, our new identities. And so each one of those can either be something difficult something to hide, something maybe to be ashamed of, because we're not there yet where there is, or it can be something to be celebrated. And I often like the idea of just that getting up and clapping and celebrating the looping and cheering and going. Yeah, this is great. This is me now. That positivity, I think in the UK, I think we need more of it. We need to do that for each

Christi: 1:03:49

degree. Yeah. Celebrating celebrating each other and our achievements and our little wins. And yeah, we that is it is a national kind of psyche thing, where we do tend to focus on the negative and we tend to kind of take, we tend kind of try and we make something we try and make something humorous out of the negative. But really, it would be better I think better something some many cases to celebrate the positive and really kind of exemplify it and focus on that.

Erica: 1:04:18

I love that. And that is something that I do aggressively and relentlessly. If you spend time with me, you're gonna you're gonna have a good time. Right? I'm really outgoing. And I look back to what you said Jenny I when I see that person in the crowd, but like I'm I'm like, Oh, this is their first time I will go and stand with them. And just hold their hand or hold their arm and be like, Hey, you're doing great. Fantastic. Rep you so much. And I love showing up for people and that in that way. I will celebrate myself. Right but I really love to celebrate others a lot. Because I think people really need that that sort of shot in the arm. Learn from it right?

Christi: 1:05:01

We need those cheerleaders ready to go.

Erica: 1:05:04

I know cheerleading is quite a culture here and United States, right. But I think also Christy, you demonstrated very well, here's the difference between UK and American people. That's the UK Americans. Right? That's everything. I don't think everybody needs to grab onto that a bit more. Granted, there's different cultures around the world different different ideas, how you should express. I love that the idea that whatever your culture is, and whatever your nation is, you go out of the way to find joy in yourself and share in other people's choice. I think particularly for trans people, particularly for marginalized communities. That that joy is resistance that is showing that who I am is not only Okay, is the best part of me. Little tiny clap. Yeah.

Vanessa: 1:06:00

Okay, well, I think we are right at time here. Jenny and Christy, do you have anything that you want to plug and unplug your socials, anything like that?

Jenni S: 1:06:12

If I was like an active socially type person, and I'm not I'm completely rubbish, but I am on Instagram. I don't even know what my Instagram tag is. I'm looking it up on my phone. Wherever

Erica: 1:06:24

I can find it.

Jenni S: 1:06:25

Okay, thank you. I think it's J Gen je e n s l 50. I think that's

Transcending Humanity: 1:06:34

easy. All right. Where is it?

Christi: 1:06:39

I'm pretty sure Hi, I am Chris underscore TMI on on Instagram. That is, as I if I remember correctly. I think it's a Chris with a K. Now it is CH ri s underscore TMI on Instagram, and that's my only social mask the only place you will find it anywhere. Because I'm not on Facebook, because it's horrendous. And I'm not on x because it's horrendous. And yeah, just just yeah, you can add me on Instagram, if you like I put mostly post selfies, I'm very vain and very terrible.

Vanessa: 1:07:18

Yeah, just to get me are those tags. So I plug in mine. And but yeah, thank you both very much for joining us. This was wonderful. And informative. And it's it's both nice to know and horrible to know that we're not alone here in the US with horrible governments working against us. So yeah, do you have any parting words to our siblings in the UK, of hope? YouTube,

Christi: 1:07:49

um, I would say, if I was going to give any kind of like words for anyone, I would just say, believe in yourself, reach out to the trans community, it's the best thing I ever did. It is an amazing community that embraces one or the other and really lifts each other up. And, you know, we often kind of overlook the human aspects of LGBT community with all these labels. And we kind of focus very much on these labels, and what it means in society, but there's people behind that label, which are an amazing, fantastic universally loving and caring group of people who give you understanding without any judgment, and support and found family that I honestly wouldn't don't know where I would be without because they are just the best people I've ever met. So reach out to the community, embrace it. And you can do it believe in yourself.

Vanessa: 1:08:44

And that's pretty much it. Well said, yeah.

Erica: 1:08:49

Yeah, hey, just just a message. In general, if you are new to this path, if your egg is cracking, watching us find your community reach out find on a Discord server or in your local community. I know it can be quite scary. But in general, trans people are really welcoming and warm and happy to meet you and see you. Quite frequently. I see trans people out in public and we play this game of like, I see you and you see me but we're afraid to talk to each other. And it's weird. Just come up and say hello.

Vanessa: 1:09:25

Don't do it alone. Don't do it alone. Don't

Erica: 1:09:27

do it alone. Yeah,

Vanessa: 1:09:28

it's it's hard. It's scary to have

Christi: 1:09:31

to do. You might feel like you have to do you might feel like it's only you that feels like this. But nobody else feels like this is not true. I

Vanessa: 1:09:37

guarantee you everything that you're feeling many other people are feeling too so yeah, yeah,

Erica: 1:09:43

force for people on this podcast who did not grow up with each other have very similar stories and experiences. You were not alone. Exactly.

Vanessa: 1:09:51

Okay, thank you again for joining us and transcending humanity. Don't know what next episode will be. I'm working on something kind of special. I'm actually more Get two special little projects. So we'll see. But don't forget to like, comment, subscribe and subscribe to that Patreon, please, please. So yeah, have a great one. Thank you again for listening watching whatever your however you find our show. Bye bye

Erica: 1:10:22

Good job, everybody!