Too Queer to be Christian... too Christian to be Queer - Episode 46 - Kate Bridal & Chloe Milligan

In this hilarious yet heartfelt episode of Transcending Humanity, host Vanessa welcomes guest host Kate Bridal (Hannibal Lecter's Girlfriend) and special guest Chloe Anna Milligan for an in-depth exploration of the challenges and triumphs at the intersection of faith, identity, and queerness. Titled "Too Queer to be Christian... too Christian to be Queer," the episode dives into burnout, religion, and identity, highlighting the personal journeys of Chloe, an English professor and media studies researcher, as well as a trans leftist Christian parent navigating life, family, faith and belonging.

The Trio kick off the discussion with a look at microphone settings before moving on to the meat of the conversation: the complex interplay of religion and belief systems. Chloe shares her perspective on being a queer Christian, dealing with job insecurity, and the often fraught journey of coming out as transgender. Chloe’s story shines a light on the societal issues surrounding job security and identity, while Kate brings in her experiences as a seasoned podcast interviewer, legal expert and remarkable gift of insight. Vanessa is just Vanessa.

From funny anecdotes to poignant reflections, this episode is packed with moments that will make you laugh, think, and maybe even shed a tear. Chloe’s recounting of her upbringing in a Catholic Lutheran community, her embarrassing encounters, and her journey away from fundamentalist faith all add rich layers to the conversation. Kate’s insights as a cis Ally, the impact of the #MeToo movement, and finding a truly inclusive church provide additional depth. Tune in for a rollercoaster of emotions, learning, and the ultimate message of love and authenticity.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage
12:56 Coming Out and the Impact on Faith
21:35 Navigating Fundamentalist Upbringing and Political Shifts
29:40 Family Relationships and Acceptance
36:31 Challenges with In-Laws and Support Systems
40:24 Navigating Relationships and Coming Out
49:01 The Challenges of Finding an Affirming Church
52:26 The Importance of Community in Combating Burnout
58:30 The Complexities of Being Queer and Christian
01:04:13 The Messy Journey of Self-Discovery and Acceptance

Follow Chloe on Instagram @camilligal

Follow Kate on Instagram and TikTok @bridalpartyof5 and @thelegalburnouts 

Transcript

Vanessa: 0:00

Oh yeah, this I guess has kind of like made it explicit too. So if you drop an F bomb it's not a big deal.

Transcending Humanity: 0:06

Fan fucking ethic. Yeah.

Vanessa: 0:09

I mean I don't know what your particular preferences are on that but just so you know, you don't have to hold back if you don't want to. So anyways vocal training let's get it going. Oh, yeah, I have to do this intro right

Transcending Humanity: 0:29

< Vanessa enables the chipmunk voice on her microphone, gibberish ensues>

Vanessa: 0:55

sorry, I had that I had to do that. I love it. Yeah. I installed the software for my mic on my computer which turns out that has software Yeah, and you didn't do the things like that so I should get

Kate Bridal: 1:07

that because we have the same mic

Vanessa: 1:09

Yeah, it's that you can also like really play with the settings under Mike tail so like, really get in like you can record your voice and then listen to it back to hear like oh, how your different settings are working. It's very handy. Oh,

Kate Bridal: 1:24

okay. Yeah, I do.

Chloe: 1:25

I do this is it. i Can you still hear me? I can hear you. Okay, perfect. Because I just don't want my mic like taking up the whole thing. Oh,

Kate Bridal: 1:33

yeah. No, it's gonna be pretty sensitive. And if you have like a gain setting on it if there's like a gain button or knob at all yeah, if you turn that up and move it further away from yourself, it'll be good too. But I can't hear any difference like in the volume Yeah,

Vanessa: 1:46

you sound fine. Yay. By the way all this stays in the episode

Kate Bridal: 1:52

fascinating behind the scenes talk about our mics

Vanessa: 1:55

I yeah, I do not do much editing on the episodes one to keep it real to such as fucking time consuming and I have a life yeah, anyways, welcome back transcending humanity This is episode 46 I'm Vanessa Joy aka but Australia the girl that is here and just a reminder the views and opinions of those hosts guests whatever on the show are their own in other people's so their employers? Whatever don't go after them. Yeah. This week, I am joined by Chloe Milligan do club again. Is it you like

Chloe: 2:37

it's Chloe Anna. That's just my middle name

Vanessa: 2:42

okay. I didn't know if you went with that too. So Chloe, Mel again. And Kate bridal. You probably remember Kate as she is the head host or co host Headhouse co host of legal burnouts. Sure. Yeah, sure. Whatever. Lash creator whatever. Yeah. And she is also Hannibal Lecter is girlfriend. If you are into that kind of thing.

Chloe: 3:08

You can look around, okay, you must know Hannibal.

Vanessa: 3:12

Yeah, you can look her up on Tik Tok, Instagram, all that shit. So it's a lot of fun. And so today I have been following Chloe on Instagram for quite a while. And just kind of I'm interested in the story that she has to tell as many listeners this show. No, I am a very anti religion atheist. But I also recognize that many listeners for the show do not necessarily line up with my views on that kind of thing. And I am very big, despite being anti religion. I'm more I'm more anti pushing religion on other people. I think everybody should have whatever belief system that guides them. And as long as it doesn't fuck with someone else so. So I thought it was time to have a different perspective than angry grouchy atheists Vanessa, and we have Chloe here who is a leftist Christian and I brought Kate and the co host because Kate specializes in burnout stuff in I figured the two of them could probably have some pretty amazing conversations about what it's like being a trans leftists Christian parent, in the professional world in the US. So yeah, here we are. I'm gonna start off Kate, can you do a quick introduction of yourself and we'll go Chloe, and then we'll get started.

Kate Bridal: 4:47

Sure. So I am Kate bridle as As Vanessa mentioned, I am a sis hat lady just here rocking out on the ally train. That was great. So stupid I didn't know everything about what that would actually be that's kind of giving me a content idea of like the overenthusiastic ally like just being like really annoying like

Chloe: 5:21

in my experience the overtake the Allies normally a trans egg through

Vanessa: 5:29

Felicia.

Chloe: 5:30

Oh my god

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the journey towards liberation is hashtag messy AF and honestly we're here for it. Hi, I'm Tina Brown, a feminist life coach. And I'm Becky Mellencamp with feminist Business Coach, and we're your host for messy liberation.

Unknown: 5:48

Join us for conversations about current events, politics, pop culture, and of course business always with our eye on liberation from oppressive systems. If you're like us and want to create a more equitable world, subscribe to messy liberation available wherever you listen to podcasts, including the biggies Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.

Kate Bridal: 6:08

Anyway, as Vanessa mentioned, I do co host and co founded the podcast illegal burnouts, which is started about burnout in the legal industry, specifically, but we are now branching out to talk about burnout in all kinds of different things. So we love to talk about societal issues. And definitely, I think that Chloe story has some elements that could definitely lead to some pretty heavy burnout. So I'm excited to talk about that and jump into it. And then yes, I do make silly videos, where I pretend to be in a relationship with Hannibal Lecter and kind of Milgram because we can't we can't kick will out of the equation or everyone would, right? So bridal party of five Instagram Tik Tok, check it out.

Vanessa: 6:52

There you go. Slowly give us a two minute rundown on who you are.

Chloe: 6:58

You got it? Yes. So I am Chloe Milligan. I go by Chloe Anna Milligan on my socials. Mostly just because, you know, I really liked my name. I picked it out myself. So my bio currently says I am a professor at Penn State Berks. That needs to be updated. I actually literally just left and I am on the market looking for another job. Just a long story about like, you know, if you've noticed anything in the news about a lot of universities are doing financial restructuring kind of movements to cut personnel, cut departments, cut majors. And at the campus, I was at our major writing and digital media. It's not cut yet that we know of. But it is potentially up for elimination. And so Penn State in working to solve their budgetary woes offered a set of voluntary initiative severance package to pretty much you know, hey, if you want to help us save some money, you can just resign for us. And so, right now, I am sitting. Yeah, right now I'm sitting on one one year salary lump sum to help me find another job. So you know, it's not a bad deal. It's just, I'm currently in that season of uncertainty. My you know, I am a college professor though I would consider myself one still want to be one. My backgrounds in English but my research is in media studies, particularly video games from a queer theory, clear theoretical approach. And, yes, so three degrees in English. Nothing I do looks very much like English. Anything and you know, outside of that I have a wife of nine years and counting a five year old daughter. I've been out publicly since October of 21. And yeah, you know, like my bio says, I am a leftist Christian. And, you know, you throw Trans and Queer into the mix and it just feels like a whole grab bag of oxymorons.

Vanessa: 9:45

That's pretty epic. That's you and I actually came up with it around the same time because I came out in October of 21 as well. Oh, wow. about it. Yeah. I started my medical transition on November 4 of 21. So I'm sorry, 22. So we're twinsies here.

Kate Bridal: 10:03

Wow, there you go. But also, I'm like, are we just gonna talk about video games for like, the next hour? Because I'm bound to do that as well.

Vanessa: 10:12

I mean, everything else I

Kate Bridal: 10:14

know, I'm really not the goal.

Chloe: 10:17

But I could I couldn't go for an hour.

Vanessa: 10:19

I think that we should dedicate some time to that, because it's kind of fascinating. Um, it's something I didn't realize. So a couple things a business I forgot to do. Because I always forget to shout at the Patreon patrons. Shout out to our buddy bears. Andrea and Elena is that Elena? Hopefully, Elena, and I'm doing that right. And then we have our other patrons Kenzi. Lucy, Lindsey and Dana, thank you all so much for your support. Everybody else? Why are you not subscribing to the show? It's only split five bucks. Yeah. And it would go a long way because it shouldn't cost me like $250 a month. Really? Podcasting

Kate Bridal: 11:04

is expensive. People don't understand that but at the people and it is hard to make money at that was something that I did not know when I started mine. I was like, Well, I'm just gonna make this into a job, right? No,

Vanessa: 11:16

no. So that's why I'm trying to hawk my goods. And Assistant means bag. Here's one in her saying, branded on the back. Love it to put all of your injectables for estrogen or testosterone or diabetes, whatever. I only know by us one diabetic but one anti system means as before last time you saw the t shirt, I'm still waiting on the mug because USPS sucks. Yeah, think about some other things too. So, merch shop, link in the description, yada yada, yada, buy some shit. Because if somebody goes to me if the advertised prices on everything, so anyways. So let's get started. Key year, the burnout experts so

Kate Bridal: 12:07

let's go easy there. I do a podcast about burnout for a year with a co host who is burnout experts. So I've absorbed some Yes, but I got I got some some experience in it, I guess. Yes. And it's

Vanessa: 12:21

good to burnout expert by proxy. So I'm going to kind of throw out some topics and then we you too, can just bounce back and forth on it. What do you think? All right, Pinky. It's funny, I'm very sexual, but I, I talk corny all the time, whatever. Anyways, so I'm kind of opening up, Chloe, tell us about we should the, I'm gonna have to cut this part out because my brain just broke. Tell us about how, like when you came out, and like the complications, and both good and bad things that might have happened on the level of your face, upon coming out, because I imagine that was kind of a big, shocker moment to a lot of people.

Chloe: 13:23

Yeah, um, so my story I found out, in some ways is not unique. I came out, I would say to myself, during the height of the pandemic, you know, my normal routines, and therefore normal coping mechanisms and distractions, were all stripped away. And so it was just me and my thoughts. And so, around the same time, I finally took the leap to start depression medication. And the way I describe it is it felt like I had a jigsaw puzzle without the pieces without the picture. And medication finally gave me the picture to start piecing things together. And I realized something that I had been playing with on a very hypothetical, like, you know, what if I know Oh, I wish I were no, you know, all of that finally, coalesced and sort of crystallized into you know, you could just transition if you wanted to, right. And it was terrifying, and it was liberating and it has ultimately been, you know, to me and to my family a net good. But it definitely did come with complications, especially when you factor in not just the fact that I was raised. Very fundamentalist Christian. But I still want wanted and want to be a very different type of important disclosure, a very different type of Christian today, like, you know, it's still important to me is still a piece of my identity. The model I was raised with I really no longer I hate the phrase, but I can't afford it. I don't identify with I don't identify as a fundamentalist Christian. True. Yeah. But I'd rather be an attack helicopter. But But But yeah, so, you know, I have to I don't know how active she is on social media anymore. But I have to give a shout out to Natalie Drew, who? When I was very active on Twitter, before it became X, and I finally felt like that was my time to, you know, peace out.

Kate Bridal: 16:12

I also included at that time, yes,

Chloe: 16:14

I joke that Twitter. I joke that Twitter is now my ex. Ah, nice. But But yeah, so when I was very active on Twitter, I reached out to Natalie drew who had sort of, just by a few months on me kind of lead by example, saying like, Hey, I am a Christian, and I'm a trans woman. And she posted a lot about her experiences. And I kept finding parallels and you know, kept and kept, you know, off, off line IRL kept finding all of my own, you know, scary coincidences, and finally reached out to her via DM, and was just like, hey, if I feel all these things, am I a trans woman? And, you know, she was very diplomatic to say, like, I cannot diagnose anyone. But it sure sounds a lot like my experience. And so, you know, we're not like, in constant contact, but I will always be grateful to her as kind of like a trans mom. And so, you know, outside of outside of telling her and working through that with her. The next person I had to tell was my wife. And I phrased it to her by saying like him, because I was terrified to tell her, I was gonna say, like, Hey, I think I am trans. But I love you more than anything. And if you don't want me to transition, I just won't aim. And she was like, that's crazy. I couldn't not let you do that. So, you know, we talked about, like, is there a life after our marriage for like, literally a day? And, and then determine, like, no, that's not like, we did say, till death do us part. We do still choose each other. And, you know, she's just kind of like, written along and rocked with me for every step of my transition sense. And I I cannot overstate enough how much I love her. And she also came from a very fundamentalist Christian tradition. So you know, and we've, we went to a Christian college. So like, the, the air we breathe, the water we swam in, in a lot of ways was very, very Christian. Okay, of course, the complication there is you know, and you know, for our benefit, I would say is, it's not like we were coming straight from you know, like Maga fundamentalism to like leftist, you know, afterlife paradise or something. Yeah. 2016 did a lot of that deconstruction for us. You know, I would say we both started to shift leftward after the 2016 election during the 2016 election. It's embarrassing to admit, but I was so politically, you know, on minded, circa 2015 That I was like, I don't know, I like Bernie Sanders. And I like Marco Rubio. And lookout act like that's, that's such an absurd position. And 2016 really kind of crystallized for me like, Oh, wow. Yeah. Like, this is my political ethos. And everything I thought before was just like political tourism. I had no idea what I was talking about. It's it's time to like, you know, get Real and so you know that time period like 1620, before actually coming out like that was, that was my radicalization also probably not a very unique story. But, but important to my journey for sure. So, you know, we've done a lot of the disappointing our parents were already in coming out coming out as more democratic than progressive, then I'm more so likely than Ashley, my wife to say, like, straight up leftist. But you know, it's definitely where we would where we found ourselves and you know, where we were, we consider ourselves on the political spectrum now. So, I'm going to, I'm going to jump out because I feel like I've been talking for a little while. But yeah, so that's just the beginning part of like, raised very religious, started to do the deconstruction work from like, 2016 Onward. And then came out as trans and it just all got even more complicated.

Kate Bridal: 21:15

And so when you were you answered this a little bit already, but were so were you and your wife both still like very Fundamentalist by 2016? Or have you already started edging away in any way? Or was it like 2016? Was the the moment and then you found Did you find like a new church? Or like, what how did you? What did you end up doing around that?

Chloe: 21:35

That's a really good question. And a helpful part for me to, I guess, kind of clarify, like, my big moment was starting grad school. I started grad school, when I was 22, fresh out of college. And at my Christian college, I was considered liberal. Okay, and like the bar, there was so low, like, don't get me wrong. But like, I was considered liberal and at, I went to Clemson for my Masters, and found out pretty quickly like, oh, there's a ton of shit, I don't know. And so I would say that, as far as identifying with my parents, and the tradition, I was raised in as identifying with that fundamentalist faith, I was straying from the fold, as early as like, you know, probably probably high school. But it was, it was 20, age 22 onwards, that like, all of the ways that I thought, like, Oh, I am very liberal and enlightened, like, I found out over those, you know, from like, 12 to 16. That was when I kind of started to figure out like, oh, I, I don't consider myself like fundamentalist in any way. But I also need to learn a lot more before I opened my mouth again. And so in 2016, you know, really kind of like rocketed that trajectory forward. Yeah. Yeah. That

Vanessa: 23:11

was a year.

Kate Bridal: 23:13

Sure, was getting. Yeah, I mean, I even did a lot of learning around that time, too. And I was, you know, my kind of like, I was not raised in any kind of religion. I was actually raised in one of the few non religious households in a very religious small town in Minnesota. So that was kind of an interesting, yeah, dynamic. And my parents weren't necessarily anti religion. I think my mom was a little bit anti Catholic. She was raised Catholic, she was not a fan. But she mainly in like, the feminist aspects of it. And so I was raised in a super like, Catholic Lutheran town. So I got like, experiences, like I went to church with friends and stuff. So that was not what was kind of restraining me and like my liberalism. But you know, I'm white. And I was raised in a small town, and my dad was a cop. So I felt very safe around police all the time. Like, there were a lot of issues that I was just completely ignorant about. And I had done some of that on learning by 2016. And I was kind of in a like, obnoxious phase of like, Ally ship as far as like, racial ally ship of being. Yeah, the overenthusiastic ally, who also is like, but you teach me right, like, it's like it was bad. So I think that a lot of people like in 2016, it just kind of opened their eyes. And I wasn't really surprised by Trump, because honestly, I grew up around a lot of the people that I was like, Oh, I know exactly. Who's voting for this dude. Like you. I wish it had shocked me a little more. I knew I had friends who were very, very shocked by it. And I wasn't on that element. But just the learning that I did. And I was also in law school at the time. And so I was doing a lot of learning about the criminal justice system. And a lot of unlearning about things that I thought about, you know, stuff worked. So I think I think 2016 was a transformative time for a lot of people. And a lot of people especially like me, who, you know, had had been existing in a lot of privilege and just not forced to look at a lot of the problems that were going on. So, I feel it's

Vanessa: 25:22

the news from Lake Wobegon or all the women are strong and men are good looking, and the children are

Kate Bridal: 25:27

above fantastic Minnesota reference.

Vanessa: 25:30

When you say threatens Catholics Oh, yeah, so at a small town I'm like, where to focus Garrison Keillor.

Kate Bridal: 25:36

He was oh, yeah, we stuff my dad. He's still listed. Listen, Garrison Keillor too. Heavy Rotation. Yeah, he said

Chloe: 25:43

he's canceled now. Right? Yeah. So it was he was to me too. Yeah.

Kate Bridal: 25:50

Yeah, that figures I got a lot of got a lot of

Vanessa: 25:54

that one upset me too, because I grew up with. I grew up listening to Bill Cosby, too. So yeah.

Kate Bridal: 26:00

The Onion was really mean during me too. And one day, they put up a headline that was like Tom Hanks accused and I was like, come on, and I clicked on it. And it was like, of being the nicest guy in Hollywood knows like you mother. Buckers. How dare you try. I'm actually more of a Colin Hanks fan but I would have that would have been traumatizing. Do I take? Thank you.

Chloe: 26:27

Yes, it's funny when you talk about like, you know, the Catholic Lutheran variety, like when I tell you and again, like I just feel like I need to do all that like sort of disclosure disclaimer work. Like, this is what how I was raised. But this is what I thought. And you know, I'm not saying it was great, but at least it wasn't. When I was in eighth grade, I started I dated this you know? I mean, yeah, I guess like, Hot Topic poster girl basically. Because I mean, let's be real, every, every guy who is of a sort of like, milquetoast preppy variety, who has a real, which was me. You know, who has a real like, hankerin for goth, Emo bad girls. He was really, it was really just my way of being like, I wish I wear a goth emo bed. And so, but anyway,

Vanessa: 27:28

I started a little further

Chloe: 27:31

in exactly. But I started dating her and y'all like, it was so important to me that like, Hey, Are you Christian? And she was like, I mean, I was raised Catholic. And I was like, okay, because that's the only way we can date is that you're a Christian. Which again, just like, it's one, it's so embarrassing. Look back on that time period.

Vanessa: 27:56

I was like I said, Yeah, I'd

Kate Bridal: 27:58

say that's very common. Yeah. Yeah.

Chloe: 28:01

But but when I tell you, I came back to my dad with it. And I was like, Yeah, I'm dating this girl. Her name is Sarah denona. And he goes, is she Christian? And I said, Yes, she's Catholic. And he goes, That's not Christian. Well, yeah, it's because there is a, there's a very fervent I don't know if that's a minority contingent of evangelicals who think that Catholics aren't even Christians. And so, which, you know, again, like to most sane people, when you consider that the Roman Catholic Church represents, like, the majority of Christianity in the whole world, right? That's that sounds bonkers. But that's the that's how I was raised. And I was like, but even then, in terms of like, knowing what I was raised to believe, versus what I was coming to believe myself, I was like, that's crazy dad. So, you know, again, like the bars on the floor. These aren't exactly like, you know, super impressive. bonafides but that was that was the flavor of evangelicalism that I was raised in very fundamentalist, very, I mean, the denomination I was raised in was called what's called Pentecostal Holiness. So you know, standards real high. Sounds for a very big move. Yeah.

Kate Bridal: 29:31

Yeah. And so what have are your parents still fully in it? Like are they still fundamentalist or have they? How has that relationship been affected by a moving four letter word and be coming out?

Chloe: 29:47

Yeah, I'm very much still in it. And I think it just depends on like, how, how they parsed that out for themselves in In terms of like, relating to me as their child, my, my mom told me when I came out, you know, first thing she said was, we love you, and you will always be our child. And that right there was already kind of the first move, or it's like, oh, she didn't say, Son. Yeah. And, but then the next sentence was like, but we will never agree on this politically or religiously. And so it's better if we just never talk about it. You know, which is, which is a huge chunk of my entire self that we just don't get to talk about. Well, um, but, you know, it's, it's interesting. She does things to this day that like, you know, Pratchett just really impressed me. Um, you know, in terms of like, you know, the, I keep saying the bars on the bars on the floor, but like, she, she worked hard to call me Chloe. She corrects herself when she miss genders me. Amazing. She, you know, when I was when we were kids, one of her best friends made our whole family like, personalized embroidered like Christmas stockings with our names sewed in tow. Yeah. And when I came out, my mom's sewed a name badge over the old name that says, Chloe. Like, that's sweet. Right?

Kate Bridal: 31:38

Let you know, that's a big like,

Chloe: 31:41

I know, right? Like she she got she and my sister bond over like Celtic jewelry. And my first Christmas being out, she got me like the Celtic knot necklace. And so like, she's doing the tiny steps that like, show me that she, at the very least, she's trying and she loves me and she wants to. She wants to show me love as, as who I am. My dad has a different story. She does not. He does not use my correct name or correct pronouns. She is creative about it, though. Because the way he make sure not to directly dead name me or offend me so to speak. He just doesn't refer to me at all. So, you know, he'll tell my brother, like, yeah, dead name was just saying, but he won't say hey, dead name. He just doesn't refer to me at all. So if if I approach him, we'll talk. If I hug him, we'll hug. But my, we were literally just on a family vacation. And we were at a restaurant where my wife ended up being set a couple of seats down for me because we have some zeri eager nieces who love to see their cool ants. Oh, yeah. And so she was sitting closer to my dad than I was. And so I could hear him. And he was saying, you know, dead name he him. And my wife said, Chloe, she her. It was correcting him. And he said, I don't care about that stuff. Greatly does. And so,

Kate Bridal: 33:44

but like you don't hear them? How hard is it to just do it? Exactly.

Chloe: 33:48

And you know, in my best friend, since like, ninth grade, I was telling her about that. And she was like, oh, then you just don't care about your child. And like, you know, if you don't care about that stuff, like that stuff is her. Yeah. And so I don't know what kind of conversations my parents have behind closed doors about me and what name they use, but my mom does the, you know, on her in her small way, she does the work. And my dad doesn't try it all. And our relationship has pretty much it's pretty much atrophied beyond anything, you know, surface level performative. Yeah. It

Vanessa: 34:35

sounds like your mom actually, is, she's probably fighting this huge internal battle to between the dogma that she's been programmed with for so long. And the reality of trans people exist, and it's not a choice. We're here and it sounds like she's unpacking that and but it has to be very, very, very hard, because it's like an existential battle within herself. But I'm proud of her for that. It's an era. That's huge, but it really is. It shows that people can change. So yeah, that's yeah, it's getting goosebumps when you're telling. Yes, yes.

Chloe: 35:23

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the kind of thing where like, I want more from my parents in, in the ways that a lot of people want more from their parents, especially when you add in the religious trauma, upbringing aspect. But I have, but I recognize what my mom is doing. And it's something that I will, that I that I work hard not to take for granted, because, you know, I see her doing what I'm doing more than she ever has to because my dad does doesn't do anything.

Kate Bridal: 36:00

And feel free to say, I don't want to answer this. But how about with your wife's parents? Like two things? Have things been affected with that relationship there? And if you don't want to answer feel free to say no, no, no, it's not. Yes.

Chloe: 36:13

Okay. Yeah, that's okay. My, that's a complicated situation, just because my wife is an only child. And so, my parents are pretty even outside of all of this complicated stuff. Even if I was the poster child, for everything perfect they ever wanted to see in their child. My parents are just pretty emotionally withholding. You know, they, they're not the type to reach out. You know, they kind of expect like, well, I raised you, you call me, you know, like, and, you know, which is the flavor of Boomer that, like, you know, people regularly make fun of on tick tock. And, but, so that's its own thing. But like my wife, her parents are obsessed with her. One of them calls her every day, if not both of them. Wow. And so And Iris, you know, as of, as of now at least, and we're debating on if that will ever change. Iris has an only child. And so not only are they obsessed with Ashley, they are obsessed with Iris.

Kate Bridal: 37:28

Oh, yeah. Oh, my grandchild big who? Oh,

Chloe: 37:31

absolutely. And so that aspect of the relationship is strong. But I have functionally cease to exist. And it's not for my wife's lack of trying. She talks about me often. She, you know, she, she mentions me, she advocates for me. She talks back if they ever say anything negative about me. But like, I just, I don't get invited to things anymore. And we tried the whole like, well, you know what, I'll just come over to the house anyway. You know, like, they're my inlaws. And before this, our relationship was perfectly fine. And they were very nice to me. And I actually, you know, for a lot of the reasons I was just talking about in terms of like, how much they love their kid, I really appreciated that more than my own parents could do. But, you know, again, if we're ranking parents here, my mom's doing the best because like, as far as my in laws are concerned, I have vanished. Which is, yeah, which really hurts because, like, you know, it's already sad to no longer be there. In their, their daughter in law in any functional sense. But also like 50% of irises me. Yeah. And, and that, that they just, they just do their best to ignore that.

Vanessa: 39:03

It's hard to like you hear that story from a lot of people to not trying to diminish your story. And it's like, they were fine with your pre transition. When now, after you've come out and well into your transition, and you're comfortable and happy. It's I just don't understand that you're just seeing person you're just now a complete person. Yeah, I wish people could understand that.

Chloe: 39:38

Yeah, my my wife really gave it to her but one time she was on the phone with her mom. And and mind you this was post surgery. She said sometimes i is interesting because she used my correct name. But she said sometimes I still pray That Chloe will change her mind. And, you know, let's just let's just sidebar the fact that it's like, it's a bit late for that. But, you know, on the most irreversible, anatomical bodily level possible, but also like, you know, my wife was like, very quick to say, like, Mom, you can't say that, like, you know, because you're saying you don't want my wife to exist. And so like, and so like, she was pretty quick to shut it down. And you know, again in that like, classic, emotionally immature inability, inability to handle conflict move, she just got incredibly quiet and waited till they change the subject. So, you know, like, growth can't happen. And without some sort of conflict, and every, every side of the family just says their best to completely avoid all forms of conflict by completely avoiding

Kate Bridal: 41:05

me. Wow, well, your wife sounds like a stone cold, badass first.

Vanessa: 41:12

Office,

Chloe: 41:14

queen, queen of my heart in so many ways.

Kate Bridal: 41:18

And I'm really interested to hear a little more about like, what that was like, for the two of you when you came out? Because I mean, it sounds like she was amazing, and extremely supportive. But I imagine that was also she had a lot of stuff of her own to kind of figure out and deal with as well. I mean, did she consider herself straight before you came out here? And like, what is her? Yeah, so like, what was that? Like for the two of you and for her? Right?

Chloe: 41:46

Yeah, she, she had a bit of a it's an unavoidable fun, transition herself in that whole journey. Because like, first, she, like, cried for a whole day. You know, just like, absolute like, bucketing tears. And it's tough because like, it's that situation where like, you can't be like, Oh, Baby, don't cry, like, have a crush. You should like, of course, you should cry. This makes total sense. And there's nothing I can do about it could do about it. And, you know, she had a really hard time with it for the first few days. And then I think, to her detriment, um, she kind of, you know, she she's aware of, you know, the ally Train Choo choo. Like, she knew the social script, to a degree where she was like, okay, you know, splash your face with cold water. I have to be the most supportive wife that ever supported. And, and she did like, she helped me shaved my legs. She like, you know, taught me how to.

Kate Bridal: 43:05

Yeah, so learning. I still fuck it up way too often.

Chloe: 43:11

Yeah. Speaking occurs those damn knees. Oh,

Kate Bridal: 43:15

for me, it's my ankle. Every time I there's a spot on my ankle bone that I cut way so many times. And for whatever reason, there must be like a vein or something there because it never is. It does not stop bleeding. It's so good.

Chloe: 43:28

Yeah, I think the best description I ever heard of shaving your face, like you know shaving your face when when describing that to someone who doesn't have to do it. It says Imagine if your legs were just bowled me that's how it feels to shave your face. But, but anyway, she, you know, she told me to put my hair up. She bought me my first outfits. You know, she was she was doing all the right things. But But then, like, our bounce around small stuff. In conversations like she would just absolutely break down because she was not confronting like, oh, actually, this is incredibly hard for me. And so you know, I was already seeing outside of like my gender affirming peer teen like I was seeing a therapist who specialized in transition and transitional issues. And she had been in therapy on and off herself for different reasons. But she found a LGBTQ focused therapist to work on her side of things. We went into marriage counseling to work on this specific aspect of like me transitioning and our marriage transitioning and it's tough because like she's not nearly as plugged in to like extremely online spaces as I am and honestly good for her sometimes a joke, right? Yeah, but, but you know, I see so much discourse about around like, you know, No, sis, people aren't allowed to say like that they're they're mourning a loss, you know, because you should be celebrating this like the person or who they're becoming. And it's like, and I think on paper, that sounds, that sounds like the correct response to be the best ally possible. But it's so much messier than that, and so much more complicated than that. And so like, not only did I have to, like kind of allow her, Ashley had to allow herself to mourn the loss of her husband. And, you know, it, she said, like, it feels like you're dying. And, you know, it's kind of, it's hard to hear that, but it's also like, it's not, it would have been so damaging and put us so much farther back. If I had said, you can't say that. Well, thank you. Like, that's not how you're supposed to feel, because that's not how feelings work. And so she has been, you know, my strongest advocate, she's an absolute warrior, on my behalf, and I love her for it. But like, it was not easy for. And she, she had to confront a lot of like, feelings within herself of I want to be so supportive, and I am so sad about this. Yeah. And, you know, and that makes sense. But like, on on this side of it, our marriage is stronger than ever. Where I would say we're more in love. You know, I'm able to bring 100% of myself, in a way I never could before. Yeah, so you know, we're better for it. But it was, it was, it was a lot messier than people want it to sound like, you know, oh, my partner transition Good thing I'm bisexual. Right? Yeah. You know, like, I, you know, she definitely considered herself fully straight before. And I think for a while, like, she she had a friend that she reached out to is actually, Natalie Drew, who I mentioned earlier, her wife, Heather, reached out to Ashley and they connected over the aspect of like, transitioning from the spouses perspective, that was really great. Yeah. Awesome. And, and, and Heather told her like, you know, I, when nothing else matters, I just tell myself that I'm Natalie sexual. That's Yes. And I learned so like, yeah. And so like, I think Ashley, for her part, like, she's, she's much more willing to like, own up like, yeah, you know, like, if you made me, if you made me pick a label, I'm bisexual. Right? But like, at the at the very least, and the most I need is that, you know, she's glowy sexual. I

Kate Bridal: 48:07

love that. Yeah. Well, and it's all a spectrum, like, for her in that, you know, no one lands necessarily solidly on one spot. But

Vanessa: 48:20

your story is actually pretty rare one relationship that survived that. And that's a testament to both of you. Really. It's she fell in love with the person and yeah. But she obviously had to do a whole lot of unpacking. And it's amazing that she did. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's wonderful to see it and see that your family is, you know, still a cohesive unit. And shouldn't be parents. I see. I hit question that Yeah. So I imagine you probably had to find a new church.

Chloe: 49:05

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that question too. Yeah.

Vanessa: 49:08

Yeah. How did that go? And what advice do you have for other people to help find more accepting place of worship?

Chloe: 49:21

Great. Yeah. So that's, that's an interesting, yeah. Because I can't answer any question quickly. That's an interesting question to me because like, I, we were attending before I came out a church in the vineyard denomination, which was kind of like, you know, it's pretty evangelical by tradition, but they did a really good job of branding themselves as like, you know, yeah. We're like evangelicals, but we're really hippy about it. And you know, when you pair that with the mega church, um, Uh, you know, kind of mentality of like, as long as we don't talk about any serious issues which which force us to clarify our position. Everybody's welcome Jesus loves you. You know, don't worry about that let's get coffee sometime. So, you know, we were a part of the vineyard church that we started to attend, when we were living in Gainesville, Florida while I was doing my PhD at us. And that church was, you know, again, it was, it was pretty, like centrist leaning left. And I didn't realize until because we had, like, you know, queer people attending church with us. I didn't even realize that the vineyard was not an affirming denomination, until like, three years after going there. Because I just thought it you know, on paper, and like, you know, in practice, it seemed like we were, but I realized, but I found out that like, you know, the pastoral staff may have felt one way but like, the official vineyard stance, is very anti. Um, and so, but the vineyard is a weird denomination, because there's a lot of churches that because it kind of, you know, as a donation is centrist, leaning left in some ways. You know, there's a lot of vineyard churches that you know, look purple. And you know, you've heard of a purple church, like, you know, a mixture of red, like reds leaning people in blue to the meeting people here. And so, when we moved to Pennsylvania, for the job at Penn State Berks, I just departed, we found another vineyard church, and it felt similar, and we were really liking that vibe. But then I started to kind of pick up on that undercurrent of like, this place is a lot more conservative than the vineyard we were attending in Gainesville. And I, I don't know how comfortable I am with that, you know, especially like, the, during the 2020. election, and, and also just like the the absolute cultural, you know, seismic shift brought on by the murder of George Floyd, I really did not like the way that the church handled the murder of George Floyd from the pulpit, I really did not like the way the way it handled both sides ism with, you know, like, oh, Democrats are just as bad. It's like, look, I understand that, like, it's a corrupt two party system. And there's a lot of complicated conversations we can have about that way. You don't get to say that, you know, the people on one side who have stances you disagree with are the same as the people who were like, What is fascism? Trying

Kate Bridal: 52:55

to overthrow our government?

Chloe: 52:59

Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, but they're both just as bad another conversation, but you know, oh, my God, what

Kate Bridal: 53:05

a lot more like putting people's lives at risk than the other. And sometimes, in a lot of ways, absolutely. Democrats do their fair share about in some ways as well, but

Chloe: 53:16

so true. But I, I was very close. We were we were both very close with the pastor and his wife, they were both like, you know, mid 30s, like we are slash were. And we, I wanted to do it, right. When I came out, like, Hey, I'm coming out publicly, in October, I wanted you to know, because I know that the official vineyard stance is this, but like, we as members of your church, like, still want to be a part of this church body. But you know, we don't want to be treated like second class citizens, and looking back. I regret that stance. Because I know that like, I did not leave the the church structure of like, you know, affirming light that I had been a part of, until it was my skin in the game. And I regret that I had been queasy with it for a while. Even before I ever thought that I was allowed to identify as part of the LGBTQ you know, spectrum or whatever. However, I'm gonna phrase it mafia. Yeah, Alphabet mafia. I had been queasy with that for a while, but I just but I still kept doing it. And I wanted the especially because we moved out of Pennsylvania with no family support. Not like our families were like unsupportive, but I'm just saying like, no, no one He lives out there when badly. Yeah. And so like that church was like, the only sense of normalcy I felt like we had. And so we wanted to remain in that congregation. As long as we could be treated like people who matter just as much. And I, I play the drums. I have since I have for over 20 years now, and I play. Yeah. And I've played drums for worship band contexts and church services for a long time. And so I play drums at that church, like two to three times a month. And I said, like, listen, I know that one of the common tactics that evangelical churches do in situations like these is they say, you're welcome to attend. But now you can no longer serve. You know, which is icky. Loving you, yes, yeah. Loving Vanessa, stay straight there. But I said, I basically was like, very upfront, I'm begging you, if you want me to remain at this church do not do that. And, and they had said, you know, what felt like all the right things up to that point, like, you know, we've been praying that, like, you know, we'd find another drummer because like, we were, like, doing without for a while, like, and you're you guys are, it's so great. And then like, you know, it's like, do you really need me that much. If it's like, I can, I'm immediately expendable, because what ended up happening. And, you know, you could dedicate another an hour just to this. We ended up happening was the pastor's wife took us out for drinks and appetizers at a local restaurant pub that we really enjoy. You know, got us beers. We shared an appetizer, and they just sort of like, you know, tell us how it's been going telling your family tell us how you're doing. And, you know, we were saying like, yeah, this this is this journey is, is pretty painful. So far, like, parents are acting like this families, this, you know, like, we're struggling with this. And they just kept saying, like, that sounds so hard, I have so much compassion for you in this situation. And then the pastor's wife had to go to the bathroom, you know, obviously made it, it's a girls trip. We, the three of us get back to the table. And immediately, the vibe shifts. And the pastor says, I imagine you want to know what we've decided on, you know, the situation here at hand, you know, like, I can remember how they phrased it. But like, I imagine you want to know what's going on. Because when we told them, they said, like, you know, thank you for bringing this to us, we're gonna prayerfully consider this for a little while before we like can make a decision. And like, they said, pretty much verbatim, you are welcomed to keep attending, but you are no longer allowed to serve in any sort of leadership capacity. And I knew I knew that what happened, and I begged them right to do that, and it still happened. And so like, it was especially insulting to Ashley because she worked in the children's church ministry. Like she she has her degree in early childhood education. And they were like, you know, you can't work with the kids anymore. And she was like, you can't tell me that I'm not allowed to work with children, because I know what you're implying. And, and so like, Y'all, it was so uncomfortable. They said, like, you know, we prayed about it. And we considered like, what would it look like for us to do this and what it looked like for them to do this, and like, you know, we have to stick by our convictions and, you know, make this decision. And when they did that, and when, when, like, we began to react to it, they started crying. So, they started crying. And they're like, you know, we and because we're like, Yeah, we're gonna leave and they're, like, we imagined you would say that, and we're so sorry to hear it and like, so they're crying. So, we ended up counseling them through how to break up with us, basically. So, you know, the, the emotional labor of that situation or balance or whatever, was completely flipped. And so, like, it was we parted on like a, you know, wishy washy, we hugged, we said, you know, maybe we'll still see you around, we never saw them again. You know, and I thought that like the conversation went as well as it could, you know, because I was like, because again, like, all of my chance to emote in that situation was completely robbed. Because we were taking care of them. And so, you know, Ashley was like, Are you sure you're okay? I was like, Yeah, I think I am, I assure you, okay. And then the next morning, you know, at this time Iris was not even three. She said something that toddlers do. Like, no, I don't, I don't want Maddie in here. And you can we can talk about Maddie in just a little bit. But, and like, you know, kids are going to be good are going to be kids. And I burst into tears. Because all the emotions that had been holding in from the day for finally came out. Yeah. So yes, we had to find a new church. We did not attend any type of church for at least I would say at least a couple of months. We started shopping around I hate that phrase, but, you know, the American capitalist marketplace. But the issue is, and this is this is gonna sound really bizarre, especially if you're not like, up on religious culture or whatever. The problem is, is that, like, I was raised in a denomination that, you know, was really big on worship, really big on like, big band, school out, you know, like, praise rock concert kind of shit. And, you know, even if that's corny, even if, you know, like, it's easy to make fun of, it's the model that I was most comfortable with. Gal and I attended Catholic mass. When I was a teenager, I went with a friend and oh my god, it was like, it was glacially boring to me. And so when you

Kate Bridal: 1:01:40

have to know all the stuff, you have to know what to say back and then they changed it. I know, John Mulaney did a bit about this. But like, I went to a friend's Catholic wedding, like a few years ago, and I was in the bridal party. And I was like, Well, I've got this I used to go all the time. And the first thing they said was something you'd like to use me with you and I was like, and also with Wait, what? With your spirit now or something and I was just like crap, they changed it on me. And so I literally had like the bridesmaid next to be like pulling on my arm and like making me sit down and stand up like the right times. They swapped it all up. Anyway, sorry. Oh, my God.

Chloe: 1:02:19

But, but yeah, so like, we tried the I don't know if y'all know. But there's a denomination called the ecumenical Catholic communion, which is actually Catholicism. But they're fully affirming. Oh,

Vanessa: 1:02:34

Susan. Wow.

Chloe: 1:02:37

Sure, exactly. It's, yeah. Love that ruins. And so we tried going there. And it was it was weird and boring for us. We tried United Church of Christ, and I loved the theology of the United Church of Christ. It was weird and boring. For us. We tried to Presbyterian Church is weird and boring for us. And so like, it's a, it's an unfortunate truism that like, the more like hit, and rock in the atmosphere is usually the shittier the theology is, hmm. And so we have to find a church in our area that had actually just recently is not that I'm an actual church. They had just recently made the decision to become fully affirming and over half the congregation left. But they stayed strong. We started attending in November of 21. No, is that? I don't remember the timeline is Oh, yeah. Well see you because I, I started coming out locally, in the summer of 21. But I didn't come out publicly for everyone to know until October. But anyway, so November 21, we started attending there. We've been there ever since it is a more evangelical flavored church with a fully affirming theology. Actual queer people on the pastoral staff. Nice, you know, I don't know if this is another conversation to get into at the time we ever meaning but surprisingly, racially diverse, which is another thing that a lot of evangelical spaces struggle with, or don't start with, you know, because like, write a check. Yeah. And so

Kate Bridal: 1:04:30

the way they're not struggling with it, it's just not happening. Yeah.

Chloe: 1:04:34

It's transformed design. It's on purpose. Yep. Yeah. But a friend of mine, at the church, she was also a trans woman as she calls it, our unicorn church. Because you know, it, it has the kind of like vibe that I was raised to be comfortable with. And the theology that makes me feel like I actually belong and, and the space Nice to disagree and the space to sit in Tao and the like, you know, one of the one of the pastoral staff is actually agnostic. And so, you know, it's it for For us it is a very good space. I think I've been thinking about this and even preparing for this conversation that I think the issue with being female ever heard of the, you know, like, Oh, she's a pygmy girl, or, you know, yeah. I think it's, it's tough, and it's easy to make fun of, I've seen lots of TiC TOCs doing just this, like, you know, you can talk about pygmy Christians. You know, like, it's, it's understandably a little easy to satirize that, like, Oh, we're Christians, but we're not like a regular Christian. We're like a cool Christian. But like it is. So I don't mean to say like, a little bit for me, but it's, it's the tough thing about being a trans Christian, or even just a queer Christian in general is, for most people, you are too queer to be Christian. And for a lot of other people, you are too Christian to be clear. Oh, so you know, it's like, you know, there's really, there's no pleasing most people because it's like, oh, you're Christian, that's great. Oh, you're clear. You're not really a Christian, you're going to hell. Huge disclaimer, disclosure, whatever the phrase is, it is very possible to be a Christian not believing how do you not believe in how I'm a Universalist? Anyway, moving on. It's just a huge part of the theology that like, immediately people are like you, but you believe people are gonna burn in hell for all eternity. It's like, no, no, I don't

Vanessa: 1:06:46

know if it's mentioned in the Bible, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah,

Chloe: 1:06:49

it's, it's, it's mentioned, every time it's mentioned, it's actually translates as get henna, which is a whole other conversation. And then there's the there's the pardon book of revelation about the lake of fire. But the book of Revelation is actually a highly poetic text about, like, you know, like St. John's pop, apocalyptic vision about the Roman Empire, it's not a blueprint for the apocalypse. So, you know, if you want to talk more about that as a whole other conversation, but But anyway, you know, it's like, cool, you think you're a Christian, but you're queer, but like, you know, for such understandable reasons, and I do not want to invalidate or talk over anyone's absolute right to religious trauma, or just like ideological disagreement that says, No, I do not want to be a part of this, you cannot make me sick. Of course, I'm not going to push that on you. Um, especially if you have religious trauma that stems directly from your identity, why would I say, oh, but my church is different. Check it out, right? Um, you know, like, that's, that's, like, you know, if someone is, and this is a shitty analogy, I'm stumbling into making for some reason, you know, if someone's like an alcoholic, you can't say, oh, but our bar is different, like, you know, the drinks aren't as strong. Right now. So like, I get that. And, but like, I saw one of the, one of the, like, Facebook, like trans meme groups, I'm on shared, they shared some, you know, is a screenshot of a tweet about like, what, like, God's purpose with trans people, and someone just shared this and said, like, I think this is a really beautiful thought. And the comments got so negative, so fast, like, I think that, you know, very quickly, like, I don't think we that would that, you know, any concept of God deserves any sort of brownie points, because, you know, for seeing trans people differently, because, you know, religion has done this, and a religion has done this, or religion has done this, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And these are all things that I can't really say like, no, ah, but like, it's also so much messier and so much more complex than, you know, saying, like, this thing's bad and you're bad for liking it, I guess. Yeah. It's really thorny, and it sort of feels like a lose lose to advocate for it in some ways. Yeah.

Kate Bridal: 1:09:28

I do have one more question. But Vanessa, I don't want to monopolize because this is your show. And I bet no, no, you're fine.

Vanessa: 1:09:35

Chloe has to go in like five minutes, though.

Kate Bridal: 1:09:37

I know. I know. And I feel like I haven't gotten any

Chloe: 1:09:40

I can push it. I can push it a little longer and push it a little. Okay. Yes.

Vanessa: 1:09:44

And this week, though? Yeah.

Kate Bridal: 1:09:48

I was just like, I haven't really brought in any burnout talk. That's the reason, but that's probably

Transcending Humanity: 1:09:52

Yeah. Sorry.

Chloe: 1:09:55

Shut up. No, no.

Kate Bridal: 1:09:58

No, it's been a fantastic conversation. Should I don't think anyone's really upset about the lack of productive talk. But I am curious about how, you know, a lot of the things that you've already talked about have been like, I'm like, burnt out vibes, like crying over something that's not actually the thing that you're upset about, that happens a ton in burnout, because you're just emotionally raw all of the time. And you're usually I feel like actually often a lot of times able to keep it together for the stuff that's burning you out. And it's everything else that kind of suffers and that you start getting really sensitive over. That's how I was. Because you're like, the thing that's burning you out, oftentimes this work, but you're like, I gotta keep my shit together to make money. But even many other things can burn you out. And so I I'm curious about how if you experienced, you know, exhaustion burnout, as a result of having to reconcile, you know, this identity of yours with your religion, and or how has finding a new church and finding an affirming church maybe helped you fight burnout in some aspects?

Chloe: 1:11:12

Yeah. Um, and I don't, this isn't a way to dodge the question. But like, I can say, in terms of like, burnout, it 100% affected my job. Like, you know, I was what's called a tenure track professor. Yeah. And so, you know, not only is it my job to teach, it's my job to research. And, you know, publish and serve on academic committees for the good of the university, and all that kind of stuff. And whatever qualms I have with the job I just had, you know, which is another conversation, I have to go to bat for the community I found at Penn State Berks, because they were a bajillion percent supportive of my transition. And so I was up for what's called two year review. You know, because like, you get tenure after six years, and the Penn State model is you do a two year review to basically be like, Okay, what you're doing is good. So far, keep it up. The four year review is where they go. Okay, so this is good, but if you, but if you don't do this, you won't get tenure, or whatever. Like, you know, it's, it's the harsher review. And then the six year is the big show, do you get tenure or not? And so my second year review was already my third year review, because they offered a COVID extension. You know, like, because of COVID. They were like, Yeah, everyone gets a year added to their tenure clock. But when it was time, for my third year to year review, it was actually my my Dean, who suggested that I request to stay of tenure. So instead, which means that I actually got a another year added to my tenure clock, because, you know, she was like, you know, you're starting hormone therapy, you're coming out. You know, like, you're dealing with a lot of social upheaval right now. View can't do that. And this,

Kate Bridal: 1:13:21

so very insightful of her too. Yeah.

Chloe: 1:13:26

Yeah, actually. Yeah. So yeah, the burnout was strong at work. As far as, you know, finding the finding a new church and leaving the church from before, like, yes, the religious aspect absolutely contributed to just like, the burnout of being a person. Yeah, and, you know, that's why we didn't attend any type of church for at least a month or two. And getting back out there, you know, was was kind of tentative. And but I will say that, like, even if, even if it's not always easy, again, just to like the person in general, I, I no longer count my church community as part of the stressor, that's, which is, which is the way it should be right. Like, you know, that's the place to like, ya know, can connect with some sort of divine resource and in the most euphemistic way possible. So it shouldn't be something that contributes to the things that are weighing you down. So yeah, that aspect absolutely helped. Yeah,

Kate Bridal: 1:14:41

well, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah. And community is such an important anti burnout tool. And so if church was your main source of community, and then that gets taken away from you, I can only imagine on top of everything else that you are dealing with how much of an impact that had to have had and to have to like, not be going to on for a couple of months, when that was such a big part of your life and such a big part of your support system, like,

Chloe: 1:15:05

Yeah, I mean, I can tell you this, like, you know, off topic, but on maybe I was just talking with all my best friends from grad school about this, like, you know, when you're an academic it's not the kind of job like, people misunderstand this all the time, like, you know, they'll say like, oh, well, you know, like, I'm from Georgia, from around the area in Athens where UGA is, you know, I parents set the timer, like, you know, you just go down to UGA, and you knock on their door and you don't take no for an answer. See if they're hiring, like, that's not how academia works at all. No academia,

Kate Bridal: 1:15:41

I have friends who are in it, and who have military spouse, friends who their career was over because they had to move for military. I mean, like, it's so difficult.

Chloe: 1:15:52

Yeah, absolutely. I've explained to someone recently, it's like, it's like an NFL draft, if they didn't want you. Like, you know, because you don't get to take the job down the street, you have to, you know, like the the quarterback up for grabs, or like that he might go to Cincinnati, or he might go to Washington State. But those teams are fighting for him, like we want you. In academia, it's like, you might go to Cincinnati, you might go to Washington State neither of those schools or have any guarantee to hire you. Or even even or even email you back letting you know, you didn't get the job. Yeah, most. And so, you know, that's painful on a whole level. So you know, again, that's why we moved to Pennsylvania. But the point I'm making is that like, I, I saw a friend, you know, one of those, you meet at conferences, and then you talk on, then you then you connect on social media forever. And she was like, how did you like academics? How did you find community after you moved, because I'm very lonely, stuff like that. And like, I didn't say this, but my first thought was, go to church. But like, and so I was talking with one of my best friends from grad school recently, the problem with American life is that outside of the church, or I guess, the bar, there's really no third space. You know, there's the home, there's the job, but as far as community, there's church and there's, you know, I guess nightlife. Yeah, and so, like, and so like, when it comes to, at the, at the absolute bait me my wife is more kind of, like, deconstructed burnt out mystical about this, like, you know, her thing is, like, at the very core, if I no longer believe the community we have at church is hard to let go us. But you know, it's very different when it's like, you know, that church we were at before I can't be like, Oh, but I couldn't let go this community that thinks I'm going to hell, like that's different, you know? Yeah. But like, but yeah, it's it's definitely hard to find community outside of a religious context in a lot of ways in American life. And so I know that there are communities that are fighting against that, you know, I mean, like there's like, like roller derby leagues and all kinds of stuff that people do. And I don't mean to minimize that. But I think even by just finally missing roller derby league maybe that sounds like a minimizing it but I don't mean to but trans love roller. Who

Kate Bridal: 1:18:38

can I trust myself to not die it roller derby but so

Chloe: 1:18:47

much less likely to die at church, I guess. But, you know, it's a community that even if I completely abandoned religious beliefs, at this stage of my life, you know, some of those people at our church are closer to us than our family. And, you know, anyone when our when our family is like, whenever you're moving back, it's kind of like, well, why would we like we have chosen family here that is more meaningful than your wishy washy milk like you know, their support is really going to offer us here

Vanessa: 1:19:29

this was I'm Yeah. This was a good episode. Yay. And Chloe, thank you so much. Chloe, you need to make your own fucking podcast seriously. Yeah, you. You got it does

Kate Bridal: 1:19:47

a good job of selling how much I know how expensive it is and how unstressed we are about ours.

Chloe: 1:19:54

It's time consuming and costly. You should do. You should do it

Vanessa: 1:19:58

securely. You have some you got to do Hey, do you know, do I have time to write and read a book about it to like, oh like this is, I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to be impacted by this. So thank you. Thank you so greatly here. Kate, thank you so much for CO hosting. Oh my gosh, thank you. Natalie has to occur off here. But next week, we have Sara Lee. And she's going to be talking about her past experiences as a paramedic with neuro divergence. And the fun that she did with that and her natural pivot from that to being a creative copywriter. So yeah. So we'll see you on next week. I'm transcending humanity, and have a great weekend or have a horrible weekend, whatever. I don't give a shit. Bye. Oh, no, go ahead.

Chloe: 1:20:56

Oh, sorry. I um, I don't I don't know if you can edit this and move it back to before you just said bikes. I feel like I'm really fucking it up. But like,

Vanessa: 1:21:03

you will leave it in because it's fun.

Chloe: 1:21:07

I mentioned earlier I said Maddie, and then I said, we can talk about that later. And then I know, I feel like that's I feel like that's gonna be confusing. So anyway, when I came out, and you know, like, working with Ashley was one thing, but like, we also had to like work with Iris, you know, he was like, two at the top because she was actually yes, she was with round two. And we started working with her on it. I was like, Hey, we did the research on like, what do lesbian moms you know, call themselves you know, and so like we looked into like mom and Mama and we was like, that sounds way too confusing. You know, like a mama number. I love that. And so I found Maddie and I thought that that would be a really easy again inevitable plan transition from daddy. So So yeah, so yeah, I've been Maddie for you know like over three years now. Whoa and Yeah, good one. I just every time I'd love to hear it. But anyway, next week and transcending humanity ceraweek.

Kate Bridal: 1:22:20

Without and then the rest of the crew.

Vanessa: 1:22:21

I'm glad you brought that up because it is fun hearing how other people who used to be considered dad. Yeah, have different different things. Like I said I was Didi - I'm Didi. Maddie, I love it. So thank you fell again. Have a good one or how horrible one and thank you again is pleasure. Both of you.