S2 Ep 4: 'The microbiome and healthy ageing' featuring Lissa Leader Registered Nutritional Therapist (CNHC), Registered Nutritionist (mBANT)

Lissa Leader is a nutritional therapist, and has her own company – Nutrileader – and also works for Optibac, so is well placed to speak about the microbiome and healthy ageing.
 
 Lissa explains how the gut microbiome keeps changing from birth all the way through childhood and adulthood, and how this can affect a broad range of conditions, including: allergies, digestive health, bone and muscle strength, “inflammaging” and neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s. We also discuss the very different microbial balance in the urogenital tract, and their potential role in urinary tract infections, thrush and localised tissue health, particularly during menopause.
 
 Lissa then goes on to describe how best to support all of this is a clinical setting, including the pros and cons of a number of dietary factors, and how to choose the right probiotic supplement.
 
 “If we look at, say, the Lactobacillus rhamnosus strains, Lactobacillus rhamnosus have multiple strains, one of which is the GR-1 strain, and the GR-1 strain will
 adhere to cells in the urogenital tract, whereas the GG strain will actually adhere to cells in the gastrointestinal tract. So we can see that strains can exert completely different effects on the body because that’s where they naturally like to gravitate to and and adhere to.”

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Transcript

Speaker 1

Hi, I'm Kirsten Chick nutritional therapist and author. And I'd like to welcome you to series two of the ICAN Magazine podcast on today's episode. I'm speaking with fellow nutritional therapist Lisa leader all about the microbiome and healthy ageing. Hi, Lisa. Thanks for joining me.

Speaker 2

Hi, nice to be here. Thank you very much for having me on the on the podcast.

Speaker 1

Oh, a pleasure. So first of all, tell us a little bit about your background please.

Speaker 2

OK, well, I'm one of those people who hasn't always worked in nutrition, and I actually spent the 1st 20 years of my life working in a completely different field. So I worked in advertising and international media, so I spent a lot of my time on a plane every month, lots of times a month actually working in different time zones. And just generally feeling quite tired, probably a little bit jet lagged and and quite run down for most of the time. And for me, that was a normal state of being. And so I got to sort of the 20 year mark and thought. I don't think. I can do this for another 20 years if I want to preserve my health and my sanity, so I decided to have the career. Range. I sort of call that my midlife crisis, you know, suddenly needing to change my career at the age of 40. And I needed to think about what I was interested in and what would what I'd find sort of quite fulfilling. Personally, and nutrition was the answer. So that led me back to CNN where I did my three-year diploma and did what many of us did, which was carried on working full time, studying at the weekends and having that crazy juggling act. And as a consequence, I then set up my own practise which is called neutral leader. After my name, Lisa Leida. And and then where so I see private clients and I also do some corporate works like presentations and little dietary analysis for employees. And then in addition to that, I do some part time work for Opti back where I do training and provide technical assistance for fellow practitioners.

Speaker 1

Fantastic. So that's one of the reasons we're talking about the microbiome today, because you do have that specialism there and obviously the microbiome has been a really hot topic for a while now. So let's have a a little recap on why. Why is the microbiome so important?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean research, there's so much research now about the microbiome, and I think really we're only on the tip of the iceberg when we finally get to understand what all these microbes are doing, I think it will be a game changer. But. You know, we're we're doing quite well so far in in what we already know and essentially, you know, just just to recap really the microbiome. Is like a microscopic ecosystem of bacteria and yeasts and fungi, and they live honours and inside us, and these microbes are everywhere, really. They live in our mouth, in our gut. They live in our tummy buttons on the soles of our feet or our skin, and also in the urogenital tract. As well, and so each of these different body systems is like a different sort of ecosystem, if you like. So there's different bacteria at different sites. So an example of this is, you know, if you have a look at microbes that live on the skin, they can tolerate oxygen. But if you're looking at microbes that live in the colon, they can live without oxygen. So so you've got those that can live with oxygen, those that can live without. So it's a vast array of microbes that we have living commensally with us. But generally, when we talk about the microbiome, we're really referring to the gut microbiome and especially those that live in the large intestine. And the reason I say that is because they they arguably have the most research and the greatest impact on our health. So we've got as far as we know, approximately 40 trillion microbes that live in our gut, which is really quite mind-blowing. And increasingly, we're starting to understand what. What those microbes are doing and what we know so far is that the gut microbiome carries out essential tasks for us. So, for example, the microbes that live in the intestine will produce different enzymes and these help us to digest our food as we know, as nutritional therapists. They also provide a first line of defence and bacteria. So this sort of bacterial barrier helps to limit harmful bacteria and toxins getting through to the gut cells and the immune system, and also these microbes, which I find quite incredible, will actually communicate with our immune cells. And this helps to modulate our immune responses. And as a fellow nutritional therapist, you know that over 70%. Of our of our immune system lives in the gut, so we can see really how what an integral role the microbiome plays. With the immune system. Now the challenge arises of course, when the microbiome becomes imbalanced. So we get this is where we get harmful overgrowth of bacteria and pathogenic bacteria. And this is generally associated with all sorts of digestive health problems. It can weaken the intestinal barrier and. That can also sort of help assist with sort of allergy development as well. So this is what we refer to which we all know as as nutritional therapists as dysbiosis, we've got dysbiosis and so that's where we have less beneficial bacteria and more pathogenic bacteria.

Speaker 1

And you've touched on a couple of things there already that are that's really making people's ears pick up like allergies, for example. Yeah. So that's something that, you know, there's is typically multifactorial. But we've learned how important the gut microbiome is in.

Speaker 2

Absolutely, yeah. And and with things like and that's perhaps when we do our training as nutritional therapists, that's why we're often, we often say, you know, where you breast fed as a baby or did you have a vaginal birth or caesarean birth because all of these things can have an impact on the gut microbiome. And research has shown that if you have different microbial composition in those first sort of crucial couple of years of life, that can lead to allergic responses further on down the line. So again, we're sort of at the the start really of the research of definitive research around allergy and the microbiome. But there's a lot of evidence to show that. Having that different microbiome when you're first born can impact how you affect how, how your allergic responses are later on in life.

Speaker 1

Which isn't shaking, isn't it? Because the the microbiome does change all of the time.

Speaker

Yes, yes.

Speaker 1

And and that can depend on lots of things. So what we eat stress factors and lots of other things can influence that you've just mentioned. You know what kind of birth we had, whether we had a vaginal birth or caesarean section. So how can how does that microbiome change as we age? What? What are those the. Specific factors that make things change as we get older and go through those different life phases.

Speaker 2

OK. I mean, yeah, so the microbiome does fluctuate all the way through our life. You know, it's not as if we're sort of born with this microbiome and that's it. You know, things like the food we eat, the air we breathe, the environment we live in, as you mentioned, stress. All of that is going to affect our individual microbiome and define our own individual microbiome. So nobody has. The same microbiome as someone else. And they got microbiota do. Flu does fluctuate throughout life, so most notably in infancy when with method of birth and then it starts to colonise as the baby grows and then again in old age and it is worth remembering that during these two life stages the immune system and its health is at its weakest and most vulnerable. So when we're. Very young when we're very old. That's quite a a crucial time in terms of our immune vulnerability, if you like. And so that really does serve as a good reminder of how closely linked to the microbiome and the immune system are. So when the baby, when a baby is born and and young infants, their microbiome comprises high levels of Bifidobacterium and that helps them to modulate the immune function and also downregulate proinflammatory responses, especially in the gut. But then as we grow older, we start to see a decline in the diversity of gut microbiota and a decrease in beneficial microbiota species such as Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium. So that might explain why. Inflammatory responses tend to increase in the elderly because we don't have good levels of Lactobacillus, and, crucially, Bifidobacterium, which helps to regulate that pro inflammatory response. Now one thing I always like to say is that it is important to note that the gut microbes themselves don't actually age. But there are some age-related factors that affect the microbiome, so an example of this is now, as we get older, our intestinal function and our digestive function tends to diminish because it's ageing as well, so. So so it's functions tends to lessen and is is less effective perhaps than when we were young? And that, of course, is going to affect overall digestion nutrient absorption and also immune function. As I mentioned you know the immune system and the gut are obviously very, very closely linked. We might change our diet when we get older. We might not have as diverse a diet as we were able to. We might not be able to eat as much because our all health may not be as good, you know. We may not have our own teeth, you know, and things like that. You know, we we need to factor. Therein we also have reduced mobility and the tends to be an increased use in medication. So all of these factors will have an impact on the microbial diversity as we age. And of course, another important thing to think about with the microbiome is its ability to produce short chain fatty acids, and these have a really fundamental role in the gut. Because not only did they promote immune homeostasis, but they also helped counteract inflammation. And of. Course counteracting inflammation as we get older is really important because you may have heard of this term inflammaging, which seems to be a a sort of like a hot hot word to use at the moment and essentially that's becoming increasingly recognised as a trademark of ageing. So it's really it's the development. The chronic low grade state of inflammation in the body and if you have this, it increases the risk of frailty and metabolic disorders, dementia, osteoporosis and all of the conditions we associate with old age. Which and also if older people are in this continued inflammatory state, that again is going to affect the composition of the microbiome. So it's going to make them more sensitive to pathogenic bacteria like Streptococcus and Staphylococcus, and all of this can start to manifest in ill health and disease. So the gut microbiome, yeah, really is affected as as the ageing process takes hold.

Speaker 1

So we've got these kind of day-to-day influences of things like what we're eating and stress levels and things like that. But then we've also got this and it, it seems pretty massive kind of cycle of the the influence of our gut health and our general tissue health and the state of our body is influencing our gut. Like could buy it and that then influences that further. So it becomes part of the ageing and the inflammation and inflammaging. Test as well as being influenced by.

Speaker 2

It exactly so you know it's it's almost like a vicious cycle in a way. And it isn't it. Isn't even just the gut microbiome. The vaginal microbiome is also greatly affected as we age, and this is particularly this occurs particularly during menopause when oestrogen levels start to drop and when that happens it causes the vaginal epithelium to become thinner. Fewer vaginal secretions take place, and also there's an increase in vaginal pH. Now, vaginas aren't meant to be naturally acidic to help protect them from pathogens, but as we get older and as the oestrogen levels drop, that vaginal pH starts to drop as well. And all of these factors mean that it creates a less favourable environment for Lactobacillus species to thrive in the urogenital tract, and typically a healthy vagina should be very dominant in Lactobacillus species, because this particular species helps to promote vaginal epithelial integrity. And also keep that pH at an acidic level in order to promote vaginal health. So because we see this sort of decline in Lactobacillus as we start to age, that's why we often will see an increase unfortunately in things like UTI's in post menopausal. Women. So there's. So it's not just the guts that's affected, it's the vaginal like crime as well. This ageing things great, isn't it?

Speaker 1

And that's that's sounding brilliant, but it's also, I mean, it's really important that we're learning these things because I I know from my own practise and you know, friends and family that for decades now, women get to a certain age, many start suddenly start to get UTI after UTI after UTI. And the GP's traditionally have prescribed. Antibiotics after antibiotics after antibiotics that just don't help make the whole situation worse. But now we have more of an understanding about actually, these aren't random infections that these women are catching, and antibiotics may not be the answer here.

Speaker 2

Exactly, and and quite often it can be my crucial dysbiosis in the urogenital tract. So alongside, you know, obviously, we're not saying don't take the medications by any stretch. But to sort of. I suppose complement the medications and make sure that they're working effectively. We also need to be addressed in the vaginal dysbiosis at the same time, and if we can stabilise the vaginal microbiome, that will then enable the. If somebody is taking antifungals or antibiotics to then get in and do the job, it's meant to be doing and hopefully help to minimise that sort of. Horrible cycle of recurrence Utis and thrush that many women experience. So yes, you're you're absolutely right. The understanding now and the increased understanding of the vaginal microbiome is is great because we're we're now realising it. It isn't just about antibiotics and antifungal.

Speaker 1

And equally not just about HRT or more phytoestrogens either, which is lovely to have that extra layer of support of thinking, OK, well, this is a a diminishing oestrogen problem. So we can either support that nutritionally or herbally or with HRT, but to have that understanding of, yes. And we also need to look at this and like the environment.

Speaker 2

And because because Lactobacillus, as I say, is such an important bacteria to to have in the vagina, that's what we want to have in in abundance to maintain that vaginal pH and maintain sort of tissue in in. Integrity. If we can keep those levels of Lactobacillus topped up, then that should surely support vaginal health in a in a very natural and holistic way.

Speaker 1

Which reminds me, they're quite clever. How they do that, aren't they? They they kind of if you, if you've nourished them. If there's enough there, they kind of wee out their own pH. To create a healthy environment for themselves, don't they? So they have to contribute towards a nourishing environment for their own species.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. So. So yeah. So it is interesting and I think sometimes we forget about the intimate health area as well. And we always talk about the, the, the gut microbiome. But of course, for women, you know, there's a whole other ecosystem there which is greatly affected as we age, particularly because of menopause and because of the declining oestrogen levels. So if we can make sure that we're looking after both microbiomes, both the gut and the vaginal microbiome, then that. Will assist in. Healthy ageing.

Speaker 1

Great. And then talking about healthy ageing, So what other kind of age-related diseases conditions can we support through supporting the microbiome?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, I mentioned obviously inflammaging just now and there aren't numerous mechanisms that induce inflamma. But there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that increased gut permeability and changes to the microbial gut microbial composition does actually contribute to the process of inflammaging and and this makes sense really because as I mentioned earlier, the Bifidobacterium species do decline when we age, and it's the Bifidobacterium species. That help to sort of counteract those pro inflammatory? So if we can down regulate those pro inflammatory responses and sort of increase our levels of 50 bacteria, you know that that that should help. But you know, a lot of people have inflammation and dysbiosis in the gut, and that, of course, is then going to have a knock on effect with our immune system. And it may then have an effect on our resilience. To things like illness and disease, so we need to bear the gut microbiome in mind when we're thinking about inflammation in general and trying to counteract that inflammaging effect. Now there is a lot of research out there and it's, but it's still very much in its infancy on, you know, the the studies that say people who have Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or so those, those neurodegenerative conditions associated with old age will have a different microbial composition in their gut. And that's very interesting because if we can work out. You know what? How we might be able to counteract that microbial disposition. Who knows where that might lead us? But it is a little bit too early at the moment. I think the research to be able to make any sort of definitive links. But what I have noticed is that there's quite a lot of research out there which I was quite surprised about, which which talks about musculoskeletal health in relation to the gut microbiome. And you know, as I say, there's a lot out there about the gut brain access, but not not. I didn't think there'd be quite as much as I found on the. The got musculoskeletal axis as suppose we would call it and again this this sort of makes sense really because. Things like Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium can really help to promote the absorption of minerals that support bone density, so that's things like calcium, magnesium, phosphorus, and of course, if we're supporting the bone density, that can help to counteract things like osteoporosis. And also our intestinal microbiotic can help to facilitate the the synthesis of vitamins K&B. Again, they're essential micronutrients of bone health and they can also help with the metabolism of bile acids. Now biol acids. Biol acids will help to regulate calcium absorption. So again, you know, it's interesting how the microbiome seems to be helping us. To synthesise vitamins that are crucial for bone health. And then, Bifidobacterium species, as I mentioned earlier, produce short chain fatty acids. And there are a few studies out there now that are saying the short chain fatty acid butyrate has been found to have a protective effect against muscle atrophy. So that's obviously what we get when we have sarcopenia and also short chain fatty acids generally help to counteract inflammation. And if we can count help to counteract inflammation, that can help to promote fossil protein synthesis, more effect. So we could, you know, surmise that that if someone has a lower abundance of Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium in older age, that may heighten disruption to bone and muscle homeostasis. But again, whilst there is a lot of research out there, I do think we need to have a little bit more before we can make those really clear. Definitive Connexions between the microbiome and its direct effect on the on the musculoskeletal health as we age. But it it's there's definitely a lot of research out there. It's I'm finding it's. It's a fascinating area, actually ageing the microbiome and I think we'll see a lot more of it as in in the coming months and years.

Speaker 1

I'm sure we will. And you know we've been evolving alongside our microbial ecosystem for so long now that it's found to be incredibly complex, nuanced. So it it's gonna take a long time to unravel it all and understand it. To a level where we can meaningfully make use of that.

Speaker 2

Absolutely. And I think you know, obviously when I graduated from my diploma in 2016 and even when I think about the research that was available then compared to now, which is a relatively short time. It's probably. Well, I I I wouldn't like to hazard a guess and say that it's doubled, but it's it's certainly there's so much research now about the microbiome that didn't exist before. And when you look at the dates on the papers that some of them are 2019-2020, 2021, I mean there's a really, really recent studies. So it's it's very, very exciting. Area to to be in and definitely one that we need to be concentrating on as as sort of functional and integrative medicine practitioners.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. I totally agree. Yeah. So that's look at the practical side then of what we can do with this information right now as practitioners right now. So in terms of maintaining that really healthy microbiome microbiome, obviously it's Food First, right?

Speaker 2

Yes. Yeah, I would say so. And you know overall and if we're sort of bringing it back to the theme of ageing as well, a healthy balanced diet is going to support healthy microbiome. And of course, if we're eating healthily, that's good for sort of general health in in older age. And as practitioners, you know, we know that if we eat plenty of prebiotic foods and we recommend the the garlic and leeks and whole grains and then those probiotic foods with the the fermented foods and the live yoghurt that's going to help support a healthy microbiome. But in reality, a lot of clients don't necessarily want to eat kimchi. And, you know, they. They might not. They might not like sometimes onions as we know and and the alien family can make people feel a little. Bit bloaty and. So you know, there's there's a way. There are ways around it, I think and. Yes, of course. We're always going to say prebiotic and probiotic foods need to be included in the diet, but we cannot. We're broadly than that to actually help the gut microbes flourish, and one way is to just generally incorporate more plant foods into the diet. And of course, with healthy ageing, if we incorporate more plant foods, that's automatically going to incorporate more nutrients, which will assist in good health. But it's also. Going to help someone increase their fibre intake. And fibre is. I always like to think of fibre as like the catnip for microbes in the gut microbes, absolutely low fibre. So it stands to reason that if we're feeding microbes their favourite food, they're going to flourish and proliferate, and that's what we want. So so fibre is sort of. Here I would say really and in addition to helping to feed the microbiome, of course as we get older, it's been associated with reduced risk of cardiovascular disease. It helps to regulate blood sugar and it also helps to promote satiety. City and of course that again is is really important as as we age and in sort of helping to control our weight, which can become a little bit unstable as we as we get older it can become more of a challenge as we naturally put in a bit more weight when the metabolism slows. So fibre ticks all the boxes and really does help with the microbiome. So it's not just about. Prebiotic probiotic foods. Let's let's sort of broaden our the mind of our clients and and get them to eat more plant based foods and a little bit more fibre and and that that will also help.

Speaker 1

I love that that that catnip for the microphone.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. But one little quote by sound. Boy, you can quote me on.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. And and obviously there's polyphenols and now and now as well that we're discovering more about their role in contributing to a healthy microbiome. So if you're eating more plant based foods, you're getting more of those tea and it's just a win win because they're going to be supporting all the other features of inflamm, ageing and ageing. And it's we're gonna be able to flip around that cycle. Well, so we don't necessarily have to decline so rapidly as we age.

Speaker 2

Yes, exactly. It's actually, yeah. And and generally speaking though, there's we all know that a Mediterranean diet is is very good and there's a lot of these blue zones around the world. I think one of them is in Sardinia, where where people tend to live to the ripe old age of 100 plus, and they're doing exactly that. They're having lots of plants. They're having lots of fibre. And and and lots of polyphenols in their diet. So. So that's what we should definitely be advocating. And that in turn will have a nice knock on effect with a healthy microbiome.

Speaker 1

Fantastic. So that's that's diet, which is paramount. But there are now lots of probiotic and prebiotic supplements out there. So this is where you have some expertise. Obviously working with Octo back. So talk us through your preferred. Approach currently with using supplement.

Speaker 2

Sure. And and I'll also talk, I'll talk about it as well from the point of view of a practitioner as well. What I I would do personally if I want to sort of help with the microbiome and and for me, you know obviously Food First, a healthy diet should always be the first port of call because if we're not addressing the clients diet, we're just giving them lots of supplements to sort of maintain a basic nutrient status. But that's not ideal. Then what we what we want to do is encourage them to to eat well and then. Look at areas that might need extra support or extra supplementation. What we don't want that you're doing is eating junk food because they're relying on the supplements. So I always do the Food First approach, but we're probiotics are concerned it's it's quite an interesting one really because we do actually need to be looking at strains, individual strains and I will explain that in a bit. More detail, because you know, sometimes you see a long a long sort of winded Lactobacillus acidophilus blah blah blah on a on a a supplement packet or a yoghurt pot even. And you think what exactly does that mean? So probiotics themselves and probiotics, bacteria are classified by genus, species and strain. So if you see something like Lactobacillus acidophilus on a supplement bottle, Lactobacillus is the genus. And then within that it has the acidophilus species. And then usually you'll see a a series of letters and numbers afterwards. So an example would be Lactobacillus, acidophilus, NCFM and NCFM is the strain. Now these strains. Actually exert very different effects on the body. And to give you. An example of that, if we look at, say, the Lactobacillus Rammus strains, Lactobacillus ramosus have multiple strains, one of which is the GR1 strain and the GR1 strain will adhere to cells in the urogenital. Tract, whereas the G strain, which again is a strain of Lactobacillus famosis, will actually adhere to cells in the gastrointestinal tract. So we can see that, you know, strains can exert completely different effects on the body because that's where they naturally like to gravitate to and and adhere to. So if you wanted to address. The vaginal microbiome with your client, you know you would need to look for Lactobacillus ramosus GR1 strain rather than a Lactobacillus ramosus GG strains, so those sort of weird letters and numbers that appear at the end of a of a name of of type of probiotics are really import. And and you know, it's relatively easy to to look them up, find a bit of research on them and just make sure that you're choosing the right strain for your clients. So there's the key takeaway really, I would always say when using probiotics is the strain specific and just double cheque that those strains are actually the ones you want to achieve the outcome. You want for your car.

Speaker 1

So are you are you more of a fan of using single strains or or supplements with a variety of strains in or working both together? How do you prefer to work?

Speaker 2

It really depends on the individual to be honest. So I would I would suggest you know, look at the research behind the strains as well. If if it's just a very broad spectrum probiotic with broad spectrum strains. That's fine if you just want to sort of general sort of boost of the microbiome in the gut. But if you're wanting to do something a bit more specific, like address the vaginal microbiome or you know there's lots of products out there now that look at very specific things, cholesterol, skin, just have a quick look at the research behind the. Strains and double cheque that. They are. They are doing what they say they're doing and most reputable probiotic brands will will have that research available. To you. And it's. Yeah. So I'd say it depends on the individual more isn't necessarily better. So if you've got a product that's got 100 billion bacteria, it doesn't necessarily mean it's better than a product that contains 20 billion, for example. So if you find a piece of research that says, OK, this particular. Strain was given to someone at a dose of 5 billion, and that's what's in this. Product. Then why would you get your client to take 100 billion unnecessarily? And quite often those higher billions products tend to cost more as well, so we've always got to balance that cost if we're wanting clients to take several different supplements, and especially with the cost of living crisis. So we want to make sure they're also getting value for money, so be strained. Specific look at the research behind the strains. And yeah, don't don't be sort of swayed by multiple billions if if it's worth taking multiple billions, fantastic. If it isn't for that particular client, then recommend something else.

Speaker 1

And there's concern, isn't there from some quarters around, if you give like really high doses of 1 particular stain where you knock all of the others. Out and create an imbalance where you kind of simplify their gut microbiome rather than diversifying it. There's all of those concerns coming up now as well. So how how do you avoid that from happening?

Speaker 2

Well, I think you know you need to think about what? What is that? What, what, what are the clients needs? You know what, what do they actually need? And. If they need sort. Of a general good gut health. You know, if there's a lot of issues going on, they might need a bit of extra support then I'd probably say go for some strains that have been researched in in addressing certain things like. Voting or Constipation or and that might be a product that's got 3 or 4 strains in it, or it might be a product that's got. Two. So again, it's very much going back to the individual. So as I mentioned earlier, there are 40 trillion as as far as we're aware, there are about 40 trillion of these microbes in our gut. So it would be very difficult for a probiotic to, I think to sort of. Send everything into dysbiosis and the chances are if you need to give someone very specific probiotics, there's already dysbiosis there anyway, so it's just gonna help to to get rid of the pathogenic bacteria. And we always like to refer to a phrase, particularly with the urogenital tracts. Urogenital tract is obviously so small, which is competitive inhibition. So there's only so much space for these bacteria to adhere to, the urogenital tract, and again, the same with the gastrointestinal tract to an extent. But of course it's much bigger. So what we want to do is crowd out the pathogenic bacteria with good bacteria. So if we can, if we can correct that dysbiosis, and then there's no room really for the pathogenic bacteria to grow and prolif. The rate that's the state we want to get to. So that's where you know probiotics can help and and they they can really help to sort of redress the balance and and get rid of that pathogenic bacteria and encourage our indigenous friendly bacteria to flourish at the same time.

Speaker 1

This is that, and as you were already explaining before, when we're working with diet in an effective way, then we're going to be doing that at the same time. Anyway, aren't we?

Speaker 2

Exactly. But the one thing I I would say, and I'd say this probably with diet and with probiotics, but particularly prebiotics as well is that sometimes if people haven't had a lot of prebiotic phosphide pres or or fibre in general. Take it low and slow because people make that classic mistake of right. I'm going to take a a big sort of prebiotic fibre supplement and then they'll sort of blow up like a pot of fish and wonder why they're feeling so bloated and awful. So I always sort of try if I have anybody who has issues with that I in my my clinic I sort of get them to do take. Just gently introduce a few more prebiotic foods. See how they can tolerate that plenty of water. Build it up gradually. Have a pre have a probiotic as well and then and then just sort of again get them to gradually become more used to having more fibre, more prebiotic foods rather than just doing everything in one go. It is a classic mistake and you know we've all done it where we think right, we need more fibre in the diet and then suddenly we wonder what? We feel so. Bloated and so the low. And low approach is good I think.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. That sounds like absolute common sense. So a couple of questions to finish up that I try and ask everybody on this podcast. The first one is there anything or anyone in the nutritional health world that's really grabbing your attention at the moment?

Speaker 2

OK. Well actually it it the sort of mainstream media that I always keep, I like to keep an eye on you know how nutrition is portrayed in sort of consumer magazines and just say that. When I'm sort of explaining. Things to clients in clinical practise, I'm explaining it in a in a in a good clear way. You know, I think sometimes there's nutritional therapists we can get quite caught up in the science, and we forget that, OK, we've trained to do this, but the people that we're seeing haven't necessarily got the same understanding that we have. So I always like to sort of keep an eye on what. What's going on in the mainstream media? And one thing that's had a lot of headlines recently is the doctor, Megan Rossy's, 30, Plant Foods a week. And actually I think this is fantastic because it's so straightforward. It's relatively easy to do. You know, you have these little plant points and I think a herb counts as a quarter points. So if you're adding adding some herbs or some spices that that all racks up to the total. And I just think it's a really nice accessible way to get people to eat more healthily. And and I and that's that's the key, isn't it? As as nutritional therapists, we want to make sure that. We're we're presenting changing your diet in a very healthy, accessible and easy to follow way. If we make it too highfalutin and difficult. People are just not going to follow it and they're not going to come back for the follow up consultation. So I really like the way that she's done this. And of course, you know my interest in gut health. Eating 30 plant based foods a week is going to be fantastic for the microbiome, so you'll have the added benefit if you get more nutrients, but you also get more fibre and more catnip for the gut as I'm calling it. Now and am I allowed to mention? One other as well.

Speaker 1

Yes, of course. Go for it.

Speaker 2

OK, so this is more from a sort of professional point of view and you know as as we all have to, we need to do our 30 hours of CPD a year and we're always looking for interesting webinars to. And I have to say, I do like the team at bio Nutrition that they always present such lovely webinars in in a holistic way and and and very original way. So engaging to listen to so, so hats off to them, they're they're the other people that that grab my attention on a regular basis.

Speaker 1

Fantastic, brilliant. And bringing it back to you. What do you love most about what you do?

Speaker 2

Ohh everything actually. I would just say I I. Love supporting clients with the health concerns I actually saw a nutritional therapist myself when I was in my previous life and feeling sort of sub optimal most of the time and it made such a massive difference and it's so lovely to be able to now do that for the people and and talk to them about the. The positive effect that nutrition can have, and when they have that light bulb moment when they start to turn a corner, it's just very fulfilling to have that and it actually my my very first client really validated that for me because. I put together this nutritional protocol and because it was my very first paying client, I was obviously terrified and I've I've done it right. Have I included enough? You know do should I be putting more supplements in? Ohh there and so I put together what I thought was the right thing and she was she was happy with it. So that was good. But then she said so I I changed my diet and then I decided to change my job. I've moved house and I've actually completely changed my lifestyle and I thought, wow, you know, that's how rewarding is that? To know that you played just a small part, obviously, but then helping someone to reevaluate their life and. And though all of those things keep me going on a daily basis and I and and and then the longer I go on, the more I realise that you know, when we had those challenging 3 years of the full time work with the intensive study. Wow. You know, it was so worth it. And I have to say, when I do my neutrally to work and I see my my clients it, it actually doesn't feel like work at all. So I'm very glad I made the switch from advertising to nutrition. Level at that.

Speaker 1

And it it all ripples out as well, doesn't it? So that person that that changed their life and everything as a result of changing their diet. People around here will have seen that happening as well, and will also be inspired to think about changing their diets and what or what other changes they can make so.

Speaker 2

Exactly. So wherever she moved to hopefully she some of her friends will have looked up her nutritional therapist in the area. So I hope I might have given someone else some work as a result of that we all have to support each other after all.

Speaker

Fantastic. Brilliant.

Speaker 1

We absolutely do. Well, thanks, Lisa. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you today. So that was registered nutritional therapist and registered nutritionist Lisa leader, chatting with me. Kirsten Chick, I hope you enjoyed listening. Please follow us for more fascinating podcasts and rate and share away.