Forest Guardians - Terrance Lee (Red Panda Network)

Season 2 kicks off with a species we never expected to be a part of the show! In this episode our hoss Ethan Leaman meets with Terrance Lee the Deputy Director of the Red Panda Network

In this episode we talk about mistaking red pandas for children, Disney's Turning Red and the impact on conservation of the species, women in conservation, and how its important to take a community based conservation approach. 

Transcript

Ethan Leaman (00:00)
Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Wild and Unprotected. I'm your host, Ethan Lehmann, and I'm here with a special guest today, Terrence Lee, the Deputy Director of the Red Panda Network. Hey Terrence.

Terrance Lee (00:12)
Hey, Ethan, thanks for having me. This is really cool.

Ethan Leaman (00:15)
Yeah, excited for this one. We don't get animals like red pandas on here very often, so it's pretty cool to have something as unique as them.

Terrance Lee (00:23)
Yeah, they are unique. This is really cool.

Ethan Leaman (00:25)
Well, let's go ahead and let's just dive in and let's get this kick started. So tell me a little bit about you and how you ended up with the Red Panda Network.

Terrance Lee (00:34)
Yeah, so I went to school for biology, emphasize conservation biology. And then I've been working in the nonprofit field for a while. And I was working for the University of California and in San Francisco and needed a part -time job and found a job with Red Panda Network. It was like an administration coordinator and.

Got the job and have been with the organization ever since. It's been like 12 years now, so it's pretty cool.

Ethan Leaman (01:09)
Damn, working your way up to the top. That's honestly impressive. I don't think you get to see that very often in nonprofits just because it's so difficult working in the nonprofit space. I mean, we experience it with how difficult it is to keep going based off of donations, grants, things like that. So it's pretty impressive that you've been able to build not only a 12 -year career, but continue to work your way up to the position where you're at now.

Terrance Lee (01:33)
Yeah, the nonprofit field can definitely be challenging, but yeah, I've been very fortunate.

Ethan Leaman (01:38)
Yeah. So, let's, let's talk about why you got into, you know, red Panda network and, and how that started, you know, outside of, you know, needing a job schooling, things like that. I believe you told me that you had a encounter story that kind of, you know, led to this moment in some way, shape or form.

Terrance Lee (01:57)
Yeah, it's funny because I, my first experience with the red panda was about 10 years before I got the job. I was probably about 17, 18, and I was at the San Diego zoo. And I, from a distance saw a sign that said, you know, red panda for the red panda enclosure. And I was like, that's not a real animal. Like I'd never heard of a red panda.

And when I walked over in the enclosure, the panda was on its hind legs, you know, kind of doing that sort of waddle that they do when they're annoyed or if they feel threatened or whatever. Yeah, exactly. That's adorable, but usually it means that they're trying to scare something away. And because I had never even heard of one, to me, it looked like a toddler in a...

Ethan Leaman (02:36)
Mm -hmm.

that.

Terrance Lee (02:52)
you know, like a onesie red panda onesie costume. And I was perplexed for a little while. And then, and then realized that that was an actual species. And then, yeah, randomly, coincidentally, 10 years later, I'm working for an organization that's saving them. So it's kind of cool.

Ethan Leaman (03:11)
It's amazing how that happens. I think, you know, as we get older, we start to look back in life and see, wow. You know, there was, there was some type of interaction that had happened that took me down the path that I am now. And in your case, you know, mistaking red pandas for, for children in, in onesies led to, you know, a deputy director position and probably one of the cooler conservation efforts that I personally have ever seen. So let's talk about the red panda network a little bit and what you guys do.

Thank you.

Terrance Lee (03:43)
Yeah, so we have been conserving red pandas since 2007. So we've been at it for a while. We use a community -based conservation approach. So all of our programs are built on ideas that support local people.

and engage them in being involved in the programs. You know, conservation can sometimes be divided into top -down approaches and then bottom -up approaches, and ours is definitely bottom -up approaches. So we, you know, collaborate with the local people on these conservation programs. So one of our, you know, signature

initiatives is the Forest Guardian program and that's where we actually hire local people to monitor and protect red panda habitat and then they also educate you know local people in their communities about red panda conservation. So that's

Ethan Leaman (04:54)
Let's talk about those local communities. Where exactly are Red Panda's found? I mean, I know Red Panda Network is a US -based organization, and there's no Red Pandas here in the States. So where exactly are those local communities at?

Terrance Lee (05:10)
Yeah, so red pandas are a Himalayan species. Their range countries are Nepal, which is where we primarily work. We're starting to work in Bhutan. And then red pandas are also found in Myanmar, you know, slash Burma, China, and India. So those are the range countries. And so, you know, they're a high altitude species.

The places they live are very rural. You know, the local people are, you know, pretty isolated from like any major cities, any major, you know, development areas. so they often end up being pretty, what we call forest dependent. so, you know, it's not like they can, like we do just, we need something, we go down to the grocery store and we, you know, buy it or, you know, or on Amazon or something like that's not really an option for a lot of these people.

There's not even internet in a lot of the places that we work in. So these people, they have to basically use forest resources to sustain their lives.

Ethan Leaman (06:22)
Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And I'm assuming that's kind of where the forest guardian, you know, program was born was having an understanding that, you know, these people need the forest. They rely on the forest because they live in such rural areas. And in turn, it helps save, you know, these, these red pandas. So let's, let's talk a little bit more about that program. How did that come about? What impact does it have? And how do you guys facilitate that?

Terrance Lee (06:48)
Yeah, so I mean, like a lot of our staff, the Forest Guardian program is one of my favorites. And basically it started with, I can't remember the exact number, but it was less than 10 Forest Guardians back when we started Red Panda Network. And it's since grown to over 120 Forest Guardians in Nepal. So it's a very successful program.

And one of the coolest stories that have come out of it is a film called The Firefox Guardian. And that's a short, it's like a 12 minute film by Gunja Manone. And it's basically the story of our first female forest guardian, Manuka Batari. And she, you know,

overcame all these obstacles to become a forest guardian. As a woman in very rural Nepal, there's a lot of gender inequalities. There's a lot of challenges that women face in order to not only pursue their dreams and goals, but basically to have any sort of financial independence, financial freedom, to be able to be self -

sustaining and self -reliant. And so for a woman like Manuka to not only do that, but to become a trailblazing conservationist helping us save our pandas, which was just an incredible achievement. And this film shares her story, so I couldn't recommend it enough. And I've seen it like 10 times and it still brings me to tears. But yeah, I mean, and really what...

What I love about the Forest Guardian program is it really helps us feature these local people who, a lot of times when I talk about the work we do, I feel like I'm talking about people as much as pandas, which is interesting because I love talking about red pandas. I mean, like all of us, I love animals. I love talking about their unique qualities, what they've evolved into, why they have these adaptations, what makes them so special.

But these local people who, you know, a lot of them are living, you know, in marginalized conditions, you know, poverty is pretty severe in a lot of these rural areas where red pandas are located. And just they're a lot of their just perseverance and dedication to, you know, living more sustainably, more harmoniously with the local environment and also being involved in our conservation work.

I just find it really inspiring. And we could not, as a community -based conservation group, we could not do any of the work we do without these local people. So that's why I really try to tell their story. And the Forest Guardian program has been the most successful, one of the most successful programs we've done. So.

Ethan Leaman (09:56)
Yeah, it sounds like it's been super impactful. And I want to actually dip into the community -based conservation approach because that's something, you know, here at Wildscape we really care about is, you know, getting the community involved. Because a lot of times, you know, most communities, they'll see an organization and they'll only see it as an organization. You know, they'll be like, they'll pass it off as, it's just the people trying to save turtles, or that's just the people studying whales or in this case, red pandas. And they, and they never really get involved, but the moment that they get to be involved, they,

automatically, I've seen increased participation almost 10 times because they get to know the people behind the organization. And I think that's something that's really important. So tell me a little bit about the community -based approach that you guys at Red Panda Network have and how you facilitate that, being across the seas and things like that.

Terrance Lee (10:49)
Yeah, so I think, you know, in conservation, we found that, and this should be pretty obvious, like you can't go into a place and expect people to do what you say in order to like save the species. Like, and especially when they're dealing with, you know, poverty and, you know,

Ethan Leaman (11:06)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (11:17)
lack of resources, lack of employment opportunities, all these challenges that happen when you're living in these areas. So instead, you kind of have to have, you know, you have to build relationships with them. You have to understand what their needs are, what their difficulties are, work with them to find solutions that allow them to feed themselves, feed their families. You know,

live more healthy, you know, like for example, a lot of the people in these areas, they, you know, they cook with basically, you know, like, like open fire pits in their homes, like, you know, that's just, that's just what they have access to. And so you can imagine, you know, the problems that causes, I mean, you know, anywhere from just having to use a lot of firewood all the way to pretty...

you know, substantial health issues. You know, smoke inhalation, I mean, it's like, it's a world problem where people have all these, you know, problems with breathing and asthma and just all these health conditions that are caused by breathing in, you know, indoor smoke, you know, every day, basically. And so we work with these local people to install

improved cook stoves. These are metal stoves. They're very efficient. They have chimneys. So the smoke doesn't get released into the homes. And they also use 50 % less firewood. So when people are cooking and heating their homes, again, these are the Himalayas. So it gets cold. It gets very cold, especially at night and in the early morning. So they need to be able to warm their homes. And these stoves are just much more efficient. So that's one of the programs that we have.

where people get access to these improved technologies that allow them to more easily preserve the local forest and also just creates incentives to conserve the species that's very, red pandas living in, around them in the local environment is much more beneficial to them, to these communities than them.

being poached or their habitat being deforested in the long term. And that's something that we obviously have to communicate and work with local people to understand. But real quick, more anecdotal, our executive director, Angpori Sherpa, he has a saying that I just love to share, which is conservation cannot happen on an empty stomach. And I just think that's a really...

important way to think about the work we do. You know, we can't expect people to make these changes if they can't feed themselves. That's just not, it's not going to work. It's not sustainable. So that's just, that's just something I usually keep in mind when I'm doing my work.

Ethan Leaman (14:22)
Mm.

Yeah. And I think that is something that's impactful beyond, you know, particular species conservation. I mean, you think about everything, you know, that we as nonprofits trying to do here in the States, you know, no one's going to care about working for a nonprofit if they can't put a roof over their head or they can't, you know, have a sustainable, you know, living situation. and, and that's really impactful. And once you're able to kind of move past that, okay, I'm taking care of, you can start to look at others. That's a big problem that.

I'll be completely transparent about here at Wildscape. It's expensive to do the stuff that we do to create content, to create education -based material that people should consume in an engaging way. And it's not cheap. And we have volunteers and we have people who really step up and dedicate their time to really be able to do this. But at the end of the day, they have to take care of themselves. And that's true across the board.

for all conservations, you know, once, once they're taking care of their mind seems to open up a lot more because they're not so worried about themselves. And so I think that is what you guys are doing there. taking that community based approach, taking a people conservation stance, just as much as, you know, the animal themselves, I think is really important and something that is overlooked, in conservation a lot of today. And, you know, like before we started recording, when we had had this discussion, I think it is so impactful and it really differentiates red Panda network from a lot of

the conservation that we work with and I applaud you guys for that.

Terrance Lee (15:57)
Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

Ethan Leaman (16:00)
So I think another topic that kind of just got brought up, we don't have it in our episode guide here, but I think it's interesting is the impacts of the community on, you know, red pandas and what they face. So it seems like the two major issues that red pants, red pants, that's the first for me. I might keep that one in there. It seems like two.

Terrance Lee (16:21)
Hehehehe

Ethan Leaman (16:28)
major issues that red pandas face are deforestation and poaching. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Terrance Lee (16:35)
Yeah, absolutely. So habitat loss is the primary threat to red pandas by miles. But poaching is also a problem. And basically, the reason why poaching is a concern is because there may be as few as 2 ,500 red pandas remaining in the wild. Like, you know, right.

One of the things that Red Panda Network is doing is we're trying to understand how many red pandas there actually are in the wild, but the low estimates are 2 ,500. And in Nepal, there's estimates are less than 500 red pandas in the country. So when a red panda is poached, especially as a solitary animal, where only a certain number of red pandas are gonna live in an area, because each solitary animal has its own range,

it really affects the population. So basically, these animals are already vulnerable. Their population is already vulnerable and poaching basically exacerbates that. We do prioritize anti -poaching. We have 12 anti -poaching networks in Nepal. Forest guardians are an important part of that. Our anti -poaching networks are made up of forest guardians and other stakeholders.

all local people, they work with enforcement agencies and they report poachers, they dismantle traps, they do all these important things. But also what we do is we educate local communities, because one of the interesting things about red panda poaching is we found, well, actually traffic found that it's largely fueled by misinformation.

So red pandas are not really worth anything on the black market is what this study by traffic revealed. And so basically local people in Nepal are misinformed that they are worth something. And so they, yeah, exactly. And again, because these.

Ethan Leaman (18:44)
And that's why they get poached. Because to me, it doesn't seem like they have much value. I mean, I don't think, you know, if you use their fur potentially for something, I don't really see much value in poaching red pandas. It's not like, you know, poaching elephants where their tusks and the ivory in their tusks has immense value. I don't see that in red pandas unless I'm completely missing something, which feel free to keep me honest.

Terrance Lee (19:10)
Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, the pelts and the tails are seen as potentially having value. And so one of the things that we're doing is we're trying to, you know, inform people, educate them that, you know, red pandas aren't really worth much on the, you know, illegal market, basically.

Ethan Leaman (19:20)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (19:34)
And it's really not worth the risk because it is illegal to push them and local. I mean poachers are arrested, you know, they go to jail. They're they're fined. So Yeah So and and obviously again, you know, that's where that's where sustainable livelihoods is obviously an important solution to to stopping poaching because Nobody there wants to poach

Ethan Leaman (19:35)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (20:03)
Like again, I just mentioned the risks. So a lot of it comes out of desperation, people needing a way to feed themselves and to create income. So when we are able to offer the sustainable livelihood programs, alternative income, sustainable income programs, like being a forest guardian, that's an example, like being on these anti -poaching networks.

the many other programs that we have. Those are obviously much more sustainable options for these local people other than poaching. And actually we've even hired former poachers to join our team, which is obviously really cool.

Ethan Leaman (20:47)
Yeah, I mean that that just seems like the impact on the forest guardian program is huge to the local communities and you know being able to flip kind of how people view things especially from a poacher to a forest guardian that's incredible.

Terrance Lee (21:03)
Yeah, the name of the program that we're in the process of creating a name for this program, which is Poachers to Protectors. Basically, that's our initiative to redirect people who are susceptible to poaching to something much more rewarding and sustainable, like Forest Guard.

Ethan Leaman (21:17)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (21:32)
being a forest guardian, for example.

Ethan Leaman (21:35)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. I can't wait to see what you guys do with that program and the continual impact of how many people do flip sides from that poacher to protector once they're informed.

Terrence, I think a really good place for us to start back up is diving into the marginalized communities portion of the discussion. We had hinted on it earlier in the show, but I think it's really important to kind of hit that again.

Terrance Lee (21:59)
Yeah, I mean, marginalization and poverty are a very big obstacle for conserving red pandas and a lot of species in a lot of places. So one of our priorities over the years has become

you know, basically supporting and empowering local women. You know, I mentioned earlier that women face a lot of inequalities and injustices that really limit their lives and women are very important to red panda conservation. I mean, you know, so we had in 2018, we started basically our

economic empowerment program for women. We also call it financial freedom for women, economic independence, just basically creating programs and opportunities for women to build skills, expand their capacity, be educated, all these opportunities that they often don't get, again, because of these inequalities in rural Nepal. And...

And that also includes our forest guarding program and just opportunities to live sustainably, independent, and also be involved in conservation. That is very important to our efforts to reduce poverty alleviation.

Ethan Leaman (23:34)
Yeah, one of the things that I thought about, you know, in between our conversations was cultural differences and how that could impact your efforts. Have you seen any pushback, especially at first when this program first started due to cultural differences from where they are now and where we are in Western society?

Terrance Lee (23:55)
Yeah, actually, that's a great question because in that film, the Firefox Guardian, even just in that 12 minute film, Manuka, the main person in that story, she talks about that and how when she first became a forest guardian, people were like, you know, some of the local men were like, what are you doing? Like women aren't supposed to be out here in the forest doing this kind of work.

And she got a lot of judgment for it. And then things are starting to change. I mean, more women are getting involved. People are just becoming more just accepting and understanding and supportive of this kind of work because I think because they're seeing results as part of it.

Ethan Leaman (24:50)
Yeah.

Terrance Lee (24:51)
For example, one of the most impactful programs that we have is ecotourism. So for example, we have these, what we call eco trips and it's where people are able to come out, see the work we do, see, experience the local communities, local culture, and of course see red pandas in the wild and all the...

Ethan Leaman (24:59)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (25:17)
amazing Himalayan wildlife. But the reason why it's such a effective program is because, you know, anytime someone comes out there, they're, you know, they're using local homestays, they're eating local food, they're using local transportation. You know, the funds that we receive for these eco trips, they go back to the community. And so it's creating this sort of infrastructure.

Ethan Leaman (25:43)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (25:45)
where people are just really seeing how conservation can lift people out of poverty. And as soon as you see that relationship, I think that changes everything. And that's where you really start to see exponential progress for conservation.

Ethan Leaman (26:03)
I love this so much. It's so different. Like most other organizations, especially that we work with are, you know, they'll take in their funds, whether it's grant funds, donations, and they'll use it to study the creatures or species that they're working on conserving. And there's little to no community impact on top of that. It's really, it's really cool to see, you know, the leverage of tourism. That's something that is almost, you know, debated on the other side, like against like encouraging tourism is a bad thing for, for most,

other organizations. And I think it's really cool to see that there's a flip side to this where there is a positive and you know, you're using it to lift communities out of poverty to empower, you know, somewhat, you know, marginalized individuals and put them in situations to succeed and to show that there is a pathway forward, you know, outside of cultural normities, which is so cool. It's so unique. And I definitely can't give you guys enough praise for that.

Terrance Lee (27:01)
Thank you, Ethan. Yeah, I wonder if part of the challenge some organizations you've met with have is that they're focused on marine species. I'd imagine that could create a different sort of challenge with working with local people and local stakeholders. Obviously with red pandas, people live right near where they live. And there's obviously a clear relationship between human activity and its effects on...

red panda habitat. So I'd imagine just with a more marine species, it'd be, you know, sort of a different set of challenges.

Ethan Leaman (27:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, and I think there's, that's, it's.

pretty spot on and I think there's two observations I have there. One, most people connect with the species when they can see it. And marine animals are so difficult to work with. I tell this story all the time. It's something that's super impactful is my favorite animal on the planet are whale sharks. Like that is to me, that's my number one. And when I actually started Wildscape, our very first,

Terrance Lee (27:56)
That's a really good point. Yep.

Mm -hmm.

Ethan Leaman (28:13)
Our very first time filming, we went out to Hawaii to work with my favorite organization on the planet, Hawaii Uncharted Research Collective. I love you, Maria. You're amazing. And we went out there for five days and we did not see one.

whale shark the entire time. And before we got there, Maria was like, my gosh, we saw three the other day. and, one of the captains of one of the boats that we were on was like, yeah, I had one, you know, behind my trolling motor the other day, just kind of following me cruising. We did not see one and it creates a, it creates a problem. You can't connect. You connect when you're able to interact and see with your own eyes, you know, the impact of what is happening. so I think that's, that's a, that's a piece of it.

Terrance Lee (28:32)
Hmm.

Definitely. Yep.

Ethan Leaman (29:00)
It's just not readily available. And then I think you're 100 % right. A lot of the organizations that we do work with are marine based, but they're marine based in places that are popular tourist destinations already. So there is sound pollution. There's issues with that. So it's really cool to see that there are organizations that don't face those same problems that are able to leverage what's most important, and that's getting the community involved, allowing people to see the animals. So that's incredible.

Terrance Lee (29:02)
Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, I mean, it's like when a forest is clear cut, like we see it, right? It's obvious. But when, you know, a coral reef is decimated or, you know, if local fisheries are decimated, it's harder to see that obviously. So because it's in the ocean, we're not in the ocean. So.

Ethan Leaman (29:46)
Yeah. Yeah. And this is just completely off topic, but something that just came to my mind that I felt would be interesting for this portion of the conversation, especially talking about women in conservation and tying that to red pandas. Has the red panda network really seen an uptick in interest about red pandas and specifically with women after Pixar or Disney came out with the red panda movie?

Terrance Lee (30:15)
turning red.

Ethan Leaman (30:17)
Yes.

Terrance Lee (30:18)
Yeah, we were actually fortunate enough to work with Disney on, not on the film, but Disney awarded us a grant as part of their release of the film, which was incredible. But yeah, I mean, turning red, obviously, I mean, red pandas were already growing in popularity, but that film definitely increased the love and interest in that species.

yeah, I think, I think it's been, largely positive for.

red pandas because I think, you know, part of the challenge obviously is as any species grows, especially, you know, a smaller cuddly cute animal, a lot of what people might think about is, wow, that would be a really cute pet. I mean, you know, it doesn't take much of imagination to think about, you know, a raccoon or...

whatever sort of medium size cuddly animal as a pet. So what we try to do is we really try to counter that sort of, you know, those sort of thoughts and just let people know that they don't make good pets. first of all, it's illegal to have a red pen as a pet. And also they are a wild animal that may look cuddly and, you know, they're,

really, they have a really calm demeanor most of the time, but they are actually a carnivore. I mean, like, you know, they are built to, built like a, like a typical carnivore, even though they mostly bamboo, but they have very sharp teeth. They have big claws. you know, they may not seem ferocious and they usually aren't, but they, I would not recommend them as a pet. and also obviously having a red panda pet, you know, harms their population further.

in the wild. So, but to answer your question, yeah, I think the release of Turing Red definitely helped increase engagement in red pandas in general and also their conservation too.

Ethan Leaman (32:18)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I think it's amazing how, you know, mainstream media of that size can have that level of impact. I know, the Zootopia movie, did kind of the same thing for sloths and at Wildscape, we have another show, called beyond the clinic, which is hosted by, Andres. He's a sloth vet for the Toucan rescue ranch down in Costa Rica. And in the first episode of his show, we talked about how they face the same issues where people think sloths are just these cuddly creatures.

Terrance Lee (32:44)
Mm -hmm.

Ethan Leaman (33:03)
and really they are not at all and it's not advised to have them as a pet, interact with them on that kind of level because they can harm you. And I mean, at the end of the day, it's a wild animal. Like, why would you do that? It makes no sense. There are plenty of domesticated pets out there that are super cuddly, super enjoyable. Go enjoy them. Don't mess around with the sloth and definitely don't mess around with the red panda.

Terrance Lee (33:23)
Yeah. I mean, dogs are great. Cats are cool too. Yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I was, I was down in Costa Rica at a rescue center that had sloths. And I mean, it was very clear that they're very, you know, lethargic seeming, but if they have to move quickly, and they do have those big claws, you know, that allow them to climb and live in the canopy. yeah. Red pandas are similar. They, you know, I, and it's interesting. They are, they are, you know,

physically, their ancestors are carnivores. And so they, it's like having like a small predator in your house, like, I guess like a cat, but wild, you know, so.

Ethan Leaman (34:05)
Yep. Yep. Well, I think this is a good time to transition to our favorite segment of the show, the wild story segment. For those who haven't listened to the show, this is where we really let our conservation partners, you know, tell the real raw wild stories of what goes on in conservation with no red tape. We allow them to tell it how it is. We want to encourage the next generation.

to know exactly what life is like in conservation. And sometimes those stories can be incredibly funny. Sometimes those stories are scary. Sometimes those stories are, you know, more calm, but the most important part is that it's real. So Terrence, what do we have for the wild story segment?

Terrance Lee (34:45)
Well, I was debating on which story to tell, but I think I'm gonna go with the more uplifting story, which is the first time I got to see a red panda in the wild. So I was on one of our eco trips in Nepal. This was back in 20, I don't know, it was like five years ago or something. I can't remember years very well. But.

Ethan Leaman (34:54)
OK.

Terrance Lee (35:14)
Yeah, I, we were up in the Himalayas and one of the forest guardians that we were, tracking with had reported that a red Panda was spotted nearby. and everyone was really, really excited, obviously. And, you know, obviously it's a long trip to get over to Nepal, you know, specifically into the Himalayan region. I mean, you know, it's obviously a very long flight. Once you get into Kathmandu, getting to rural Nepal, it's a, it's a.

Ethan Leaman (35:34)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (35:43)
a lot of, you know, riding in Jeeps, you're going up into the mountains, high elevation. And when you're finally, you know, by the time you get to see this panda, it's a long journey. And so, but you have all this like, excitement built up, you know, it's sort of suspenseful. And then when you see it, you're like, it's even more incredible than you had built it up because like, I don't know, just the way that it's just...

I don't know if you noticed, but every photo of a red panda in the wild, it's always the red panda looking down from a tree down at the photographer. You know, makes sense. They're arboreal species. They're usually looking at a person with curiosity. They're usually like, what is that? You know, what are they doing around here? They don't see a lot of anything unusual like that. So they're probably pretty interested. But it was this like, they estimated around a 10 month old.

Ethan Leaman (36:17)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (36:39)
Red Panda, really cute, obviously. I mean, people cry. I'm not going to comment or not whether I cried. I totally cried. No, I teared up, definitely. But yeah, yeah, it's a very spiritual experience. I mean, obviously you're like in the Himalayas, you know, behind the Red Panda is like Mount Everest or a part of that mountain range. And you're seeing this like very mysterious, very elusive.

Ethan Leaman (37:04)
Mm -hmm.

Terrance Lee (37:07)
animal that only a handful of people in the world have seen in the wild. I mean, you know, so, you know, and yes, this is a plug for our eco trips, partially. But yeah, so if you want to if you want to have that experience, join one of our eco trips. Couldn't recommend it enough. But yeah, we have like video of people seeing a red panda for the first time. People are crying. People are having this very spiritual experience. And there's really nothing like it. And.

Ethan Leaman (37:19)
Go ahead, go ahead, plug them.

Terrance Lee (37:37)
Yeah, and for the rest of the day, we were just like in the best mood and it was really cool. So yeah, that's my wild story.

Ethan Leaman (37:43)
I can imagine how rewarding did it feel to be able to see it for the first time after all the work that you had done leading up to that moment.

Terrance Lee (37:51)
I was.

I mean, I was definitely kind of almost in shock, you know, because yeah, it was like, I was pretty, you know, at loss for words and just having, yeah, like you said, just having been with organization for a while and seeing so many photographs and videos of Red Pandas, obviously seeing them in zoos, but you know, knowing that this is what I've been working to save. It was just, it was beautiful. Yeah. It was very life -changing. Yeah.

Ethan Leaman (38:22)
That is amazing and love to hear it. And I'm definitely hoping, you know, that more people get to experience those moments because like we said earlier in the show that that connection, you know, inspires that change inspires, you know, that drive to work in conservation, to want to work with different organizations or donate to different organizations, you know, however you can get involved, but that connection is key. And this, this story just really shows, you know, how important it is, even when you're already there.

Terrance Lee (38:49)
Yeah. And I mean, you know, we were talking about ecotourism later or earlier and like, obviously in order for ecotourism to work, it has to be done sustainably. It has to be managed in a way that, you know, makes minimal, you know, a minimal impact on the local environment. So, you know, one, one of, we have like a whole policy, a whole, you know, guidelines to make sure that.

We only visit Red pandas at a certain time of the year, only so many trips during those certain times of year, because we want to create this opportunity, like you said, for people to connect with these animals on a whole new level. But obviously, it's very important for tourism not to become unmanageable and to have an adverse effect on the local species. So that's something we really prioritize.

Ethan Leaman (39:45)
Well, I think that is actually a great transition for us to hit our closing segment of the show. We're about done. So how do people get involved or support the Red Panda Network?

Terrance Lee (39:56)
I mean, so just checking out our website, obviously is a great place to start. Red Panda network .org and you know, we were very active obviously on social media. We try to share as many stories of our conservation work, which includes the local people. Yeah, I mean, we were actually right now doing a run for red pandas event.

it started on Earth Day, but it's going till May 22nd. So there's still a few weeks left where basically you sign, you register and. You, you know, any workout you do any running, biking, hiking, or any, any sort of self care, can help you raise funds to support our mission. so that's, that's definitely an easy way and a, and a healthy way to, support our work. And then.

Actually, we were just talking about how International Red Panda Day is only, it's not very far away. So it's actually in September. That's obviously a huge day for red panda conservation. Zoos and businesses and institutions and people all over the world celebrate this day. And so if you like zoos and if you live near one, check to see if they have, if they're planning on hosting an International Red Panda Day event.

And yeah, there's a lot of ways to get involved. Yeah, please come check us out. You can obviously reach out to me, Terrence at rebhannanetwork .org or info at rebhannanetwork .org. It's another way to contact us. So.

Ethan Leaman (41:34)
Yeah. Well, awesome. I hope, I hope we get a flood of people over to you. And I know in September, I will definitely have to be at the San Diego zoo. That is quote unquote, my local zoo, to go check out the red pandas. I live about 30 minutes away from that zoo. So it's a, it's, it's not too far for me. And I really enjoy, you know, going there and being able to meet all the people who spend their time there. And, and as for the red pen network website, I would encourage everyone, to check it out because I, I took a sneak peek after our first call Terrence.

Terrance Lee (41:43)
Yep.

Ethan Leaman (42:04)
and there are some pretty sweet merch on there actually. So I would encourage people to head that way too and pick up some stuff.

Terrance Lee (42:13)
Yeah, thank you.

Ethan Leaman (42:14)
All right, I think that wraps it for the show. Thank you so much, Terrence, for joining us for this episode. It was a fun one.

Terrance Lee (42:22)
Yeah, thanks, Ethan. Yeah, it's been my pleasure. It's been great being here. Thanks so much for having me.

Ethan Leaman (42:27)
Awesome, thanks again, Terrence, and thanks for everyone listening.