Diaries of a Lodge Owner
Episode 47: Protect Your Investment, Build Your Wealth w/ Rick Miller
Ever wondered how land severance could unlock the financial potential of your property? Join us as we reveal the transformative power of surveying and land division through my personal journey with Rick Miller from Miller and Ursu Surveying. Rick's fascinating path from aspiring geologist to expert surveyor, combined with his adventurous stories from the Canadian wilderness, provides a captivating look into the world of land development and the unique challenges faced in such remote areas.
In this episode, we also navigate the complexities of large-scale construction projects and land severance regulations, crucial for developing properties like Chaudière Island. Hear firsthand how understanding these regulations can offer a lifeline for lodge and cottage owners, especially those financially strained by the pandemic. We delve into the nitty-gritty of creating new lots, ensuring minimum frontage, and proper septic system installation to maximize property value. Our discussion even extends to innovative ideas like converting vacant land with multiple cabins into a condominium structure, making property development a viable strategy for securing a prosperous future.
As we wrap up, we focus on planning a legacy through property division, addressing the practical and challenging aspects of municipal home building. We uncover the often-overlooked significance of municipal councils and the hurdles developers face today. Through engaging anecdotes and expert advice, we provide invaluable insights for anyone looking to leave a lasting legacy, navigate municipal regulations, or simply enhance their property's worth. This episode is packed with actionable strategies and expert knowledge, making it a must-listen for lodge owners and property developers alike.
Ever wondered how land severance could unlock the financial potential of your property? Join us as we reveal the transformative power of surveying and land division through my personal journey with Rick Miller from Miller and Ursu Surveying. Rick's fascinating path from aspiring geologist to expert surveyor, combined with his adventurous stories from the Canadian wilderness, provides a captivating look into the world of land development and the unique challenges faced in such remote areas.
In this episode, we also navigate the complexities of large-scale construction projects and land severance regulations, crucial for developing properties like Chaudière Island. Hear firsthand how understanding these regulations can offer a lifeline for lodge and cottage owners, especially those financially strained by the pandemic. We delve into the nitty-gritty of creating new lots, ensuring minimum frontage, and proper septic system installation to maximize property value. Our discussion even extends to innovative ideas like converting vacant land with multiple cabins into a condominium structure, making property development a viable strategy for securing a prosperous future.
As we wrap up, we focus on planning a legacy through property division, addressing the practical and challenging aspects of municipal home building. We uncover the often-overlooked significance of municipal councils and the hurdles developers face today. Through engaging anecdotes and expert advice, we provide invaluable insights for anyone looking to leave a lasting legacy, navigate municipal regulations, or simply enhance their property's worth. This episode is packed with actionable strategies and expert knowledge, making it a must-listen for lodge owners and property developers alike.
This episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner is brought to you by Nordic Point Lodge a luxury outdoor experience with five-star service.
Speaker 2:All municipalities want new development. In most cases, yeah, but they want good new development and that's key, and especially with resort properties.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, this week on the Outdoor Journal Radio podcast Networks Diaries of a Lodge Owner. Today we delve into one of the main strategies that gave me the confidence to transfer the Chaudier Lodge into a thriving business. I'm your host, steve Niedzwiecki, and today we're exploring a topic that holds the key to unlocking hidden wealth and maximizing the potential of your land.
Speaker 1:Surveying or subdividing your land can be a game changer for lodge and property owners who are looking to protect their investment, increase their wealth and expand their opportunities. This process involves dividing a larger property of land into smaller, more manageable sections, each with its own potential for development, sale or lease. By severing your land, you can not only create additional income streams, but also enhance the overall value of your property. And to guide us through this intricate process, it is my pleasure to introduce to all of you one of the finest surveyors in the land, sporting decades of experience the owner of Miller and Ursu Surveying, rick Miller. Whether you're considering expanding your lodge, selling a portion of your property, or you're simply curious about the potential benefits of severing your land, this episode is packed with valuable information that can help you make informed decisions about your lodge, home or business, taking it to new heights. So sit back, relax and get ready to learn how surveying and severing your land can be a strategic move to boost your wealth and secure a prosperous future for your family. Here's my conversation with Rick.
Speaker 4:Rick, welcome Thanks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, welcome, thanks, yeah, yeah, uh, I'd really love to talk to you about, um, first of all, what you've done. You're, you're. You said you're semi-retired, yes, and you are, you are well. First of all, um, I'll, uh, I'll, I'll tell everybody that, um, you were, you were a great asset for me when I bought Shodier Lodge, and I bought Shodier Lodge with next to nothing.
Speaker 1:I had my life mortgaged and I needed somebody to help me sever some lots, and I called the first local surveyor that I found in North Bay Miller and Ursu and I got Rick Miller and we'll talk about that situation because it was very key for me and my business and journey. But before we get there, I'd really love to talk to you about your career as a surveyor and some stories and how you got there and what's required for people out there that are maybe trying to figure out their way as a young person. Because I've got, you know, teenagers myself and you know one of them is very, is very, directed. He's going to be an electrician and that's what he's going to do. But my other kids are, you know, they just don't know what direction. So I was talking to my buddy, mark, this morning out on the dock and we were saying what a cool job surveying would be. And tell us a little bit about how you became a surveyor and then some life experiences along the way.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I actually, when I was growing up as a kid, I always wanted to be a geologist. Oh, yeah, yeah. And my dad was. He sold equipment and so on and was involved with all the mining industry and all the companies.
Speaker 1:And you were in this area, yeah, we lived in North Bay.
Speaker 2:All the companies and you were in this area. Yeah, we lived in North Bay and my dad probably some of the best advice he ever gave me is he really didn't think I should be a geologist and prospector that it wasn't a great lifestyle.
Speaker 2:But rather than discourage me, what he did is he got me a job with Inco's mining their exploration division company, and I spent two years living in the bush in tents, winter and summer. Oh wow, everywhere, up to Ungava Bay in Quebec and right up to the coast of Hudson's Bay in Ontario and stuff.
Speaker 1:What were those experiences like? The first thing, you know it's May, right now, and the first thing that comes to my mind is the bugs, the bugs.
Speaker 2:Well, when you work up in those areas, the bugs never quit Like where. They are really bad. Here right now they're like that until the snow flies. Oh really, it never changes. Yeah, and it's. I mean, it takes a little. You live with one or two other people in a tent for five months at a time. It's a different world.
Speaker 2:You know, your only communication is an airplane or helicopter flying in, food once a week and those kind of things, yeah and so on. So yeah, no, it was a great life experience let me tell you.
Speaker 1:Well, the thought of gold and prospecting, you know like I mean Sam McGee up there, the Robert Service tale and all of that, while my younger son, mikey, he wants to be in that, he's mentioned, he wants to do that kind of thing and I thought, geez, that'd be cool. But then you start thinking about it, and that's the summer, with the bugs, and that's probably fairly comfortable. What's it like in the winter?
Speaker 2:Well, it's yeah, it's tough. It's tough, I mean just keeping warm and keeping you know. Yeah, You're still in a tent? Well, we're in cabins. No, not cabins, they're insulated tents with wood stoves and so on, but they're not. It's not five-star by any stretch, and you know, you, I mean either adapt and survive or you don't, but it's, I mean it's not. It's interesting and exciting, but it's not something that most people would do forever. Most of the people end up, you know, most of them end up being alcoholics and everything.
Speaker 1:I mean it's uh well, it's got to be tough to even think about a family.
Speaker 2:Well, and then the problem is when you come out after you've been in it, living in the bush, for four or five months at a time, and then we used to get a couple months off and come out, but you're not used to people around or noise or anything, and I mean it drives you crazy and you really, oh yeah, you, you don't realize how much it affects you. So that that was my my start. And then I decided that, no, that probably like I'd finished high school then and I and uh, I was going to go to university in geology. And then I said, well, I think after two years I didn't think that was probably a good idea and we had family, friends and that that were Ontario land surveyors and so you know, and I was always a little interested in that. So I got a job, um, serving this in the summer, and then I had applied to University of Toronto to go into serving.
Speaker 2:Yeah and uh. So that's what I how I got in there yeah and uh so well, you've built yourself a wonderful business over the years.
Speaker 1:yeah, it's been great. Yeah, what are some of the? Do you have any memories that are monumental in your career?
Speaker 2:You know whether it be certain jobs or just Probably when I was articling like once you graduate university, then you got to article.
Speaker 1:And what does that mean?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a period of time where you work under a land surveyor, you write all your series of professional exams, oh yeah, and then you write. You know you put in, you got to get certain experience at certain types of surveys.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So it's like a tradesperson going apprentice yeah.
Speaker 2:Very similar to other professions like lawyers to an article. Chartered accountants, engineers all the self-governing professions have an article process before you can become licensed. So I was working for a larger firm out of New Liskard that did mostly mining stuff and pipeline was their big thing. But I got involved. I had done a bunch of retracement surveys and then I'd come back out of a difficult bush survey and my boss said I had a real nice job for you out at Marathon. Two weeks max you got 17 mining claims right on the highway. You know, stay in a hotel, okay, well, I'll go out there. So that was 1981 or 1980.
Speaker 2:Anyway, that was the Hemel gold mines, okay, but this was before they hit any gold and we were actually there surveying the claims when they hit gold Really. And then I ended up hit any gold and we were actually there surveying the claims when they hit gold really and, uh, then I ended up I was, I finally had to quit the company I was working for to get out of there. I was there three years. I had 40 guys working for me. Wow, you know, we, uh, you know, and that was at the time and, and you know, was the biggest mine development ever in Canada, like the three mines that went in, there were a total of almost $2 billion. Wow, in those days, you know Ish, and so it was pretty, that was pretty exciting and interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, especially with your interest in geology. Yeah, because anybody that has interest in geology, it always starts with gold, does it not?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was an interesting sight because everybody had known there had been gold there forever, but they'd never really hit the jackpot. Yeah, and we actually found one of the old drill holes that dated back into the 1930s. Within 50 feet of the drill hole that they hit the ore body.
Speaker 1:Really yeah. So this gold obviously is not like when you watch Parker Schnabel up in Alaska where they're stripping and it's not river deposit.
Speaker 2:No, this is dissociated and it's spread out, but it was a different type of uh rock formation and and it's the type of gold formation that they normally find in the rand area in south africa, gotcha, and it's not common to the canadian shield. Yeah, and the one the geologist who discovered it. He'd put together all the information and believed that it was like that and yeah, proved to be true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, what a theory to come up with, with, it being so different from from uh uh, the rand to here yeah, and then he must, that must have been his uh that for for his theory to come true like that oh yeah, so that that was probably you.
Speaker 2:That's one of the highlights. I mean, you'd be involved in things like that. And we've done lots of different big projects, big pipeline projects. I did the pipeline expansion here in the late 80s, early 90s from North Bay to Ottawa where we ran a new TransCanada line, all the way down there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. So there's a broad spectrum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's everything from that to construction. We did a lot of construction layout and so the new regional hospital here, which was a half billion dollar building beautiful building, by the way and we were involved from day one on that. Then, like I had crews that went to work there every day for two years. Those are nice jobs, yeah, yeah, so you know things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, but yeah yeah, like I mean, what I would love to talk to you about today and for the listeners as well who may be landowners and lodge owners, and that's the perspective that I can speak to is severancing. And, like I mentioned off the top, when I bought Chaudière I mortgaged everything that I had, including most of what my mom and dad had. Yeah, idea of severances. Back home in Amaranth I was a sheet metal mechanic and I knew that I wasn't going to do that anymore. I had made the decision that I wasn't going to do that and one of the ideas that I had at the time was this was back in the early 2000s, so the green belt legislation come through most of southern Ontario, including Amaranth Township, and the one thing that Amaranth did is they changed their municipal designations and added one called Rurally Zoned Lands, which were not agriculturally zoned but they weren't residential. It was a rurally zoned designation for land that couldn't be farmed, or that was the idea. A lot of the rural was farmable, but anyway, I had found that in the Greenbelt they also were protecting farmland. So the one severance that farmers could get off an agriculturally zoned parcel, they made a moratorium on it. Right, you couldn't get a severance on any agriculturally zoned land but rural. On an original half lot, which in Amaranth, you've got 100 acres, which is the majority, but there are some 88 and 122s. Just because one of the lines is off, you could get three parcels. So I researched every rurally zoned empty lot in the township and called the owners and tried to buy them. And it was a tough go, just because when you don't have your property for sale and somebody is searching you out saying, hey, can I buy your property? Yeah, everybody's skeptical. Yeah. And again, I was offering market value at the total parcel value, right, but not the severed values, because that's where I was going to try and make some money.
Speaker 1:So I always had that severing idea and when I bought Chaudière it was, I forget exactly, about maybe 19 acres, 18 and a half 19 acres, and being mortgaged to the nines. Like I bought it for $800,000 and I had $99,000 of my own money. So you know I had a hard time sleeping at night, right, especially when I have a mortgage on my mom and dad's farm, you know, to cover it right, if I go down, it's not just me and my wife and kids, it's my mom and dad too. So I called you and I asked you about severing on that Chaudiere Island and what you did for me was key because it allowed me to sleep at night again. And back then I really didn't know the whole process.
Speaker 1:Now, being a counselor the last few years and being involved on that side of it, I understand more about it. But back when I owned Chaudière you basically said here's what I can do and this is what it's going to cost. You don't have to do anything, right, and it was. I remember feeling that it was a very reasonable price and you looked after everything from start to finish. And for me, rick, I don't know if you really know how much what you did for me helped in my success there, right, even though those parcels they always just sat there, right, but that was that little piece of gold that if you get in trouble, you can sell them off and you're good, can sell them off and you're good.
Speaker 1:So what is the process for lodge owners out there who may be in those stressful moments? Because after COVID, like I mean, a lot of these guys up here took such a shit kicking and you know, in this particular area and I'm talking North Bay and maybe an hour north. It was pretty good for them because the GTA Canadian people, they all come up when they could Like. When COVID shut everybody down, everybody was shut down, but the Canadians come here. It's the people that are north that are relying on the Americans, and when the borders shut down it crushed them right. So the ones that are surviving this might be a little ace in the hole for them, or even cottage owners with larger parcels of property. So maybe we should just kind of talk about I know it could be different in municipalities, but what are the minimum requirements?
Speaker 2:roughly, minimum requirements. Roughly Generally, I mean, every municipality as well as the province all have different rules, so every municipality will have an official plan and zoning bylaw that dictates what you can and cannot do, and they are all different. But the general rule of thumb in most cases is any new lot creation that you're doing is going to have to have a minimum of 60 meters of frontage on the water or the road, depending on the situation, and a minimum of one hectare in size, two and a half acres, and that's sort of become the new standard out there. And there's some good reasons for it. First of all, the most important one is that then it has capabilities for putting in a standard class four septic system and a replacement in the future. So those are the main reasons.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, and then maybe your separation between that and your. Well, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so you need separation for there. So those are the main reasons and those are. There are variations in certain municipalities and certain situations, but that's sort of the general For sure?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know that in my area. Then well, I was just going to say there's so many different commissions.
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Speaker 1:So let's kind of walk through the process and when I talk to you with Chaudière, the only process for me and I'm so thankful for it was hi, rick, I'd like to get some lots, and it was that easy.
Speaker 2:So the process, generally, no matter where you are other than if you're in an unorganized area, so the municipality will have the simplest way to sever land is through a consent to sever under the Planning Act and generally most municipalities will only let you sever two, possibly three pieces under those policies Not most. There are differences and so what you do is it's an application to the municipality to sever and meet all their. You know, and it's a. All municipalities have a standard application document based on a provincial one, yeah, which they're several pages long and they can be very complicated. So generally most of them are done now by planning professionals like myself. I'm a land surveyor but also a planning consultant, always have been, yeah, and so we do that, but also a planning consultant, always have been, and so we do that, and you know. So generally you'll get somebody to prepare it for you, prepare the sketch, submit it the municipalities they have 30 days to accept them as a complete submission and then they hold a public hearing under the Planning Act before the Committee of Adjustment yeah, and Committee of Adjustment is made up of members of the public and sometimes maybe a couple of counselors, counselors, and they're there to, you know, decide. They have three choices they can approve an application, refuse it or defer it for more information, yeah, and so that process is, you know, sometimes they can defer them and ask for more information.
Speaker 2:Environmental, you know, species at risk, different things. Fisheries, if there's spawning beds, different governing bodies, different things. Fisheries, if there's bonding beds yeah, but generally if you're dealing with a planning professional, they'll head off all those things beforehand. Like we know, we research that that's part of the application and we have on staff, like here we have, I have environmental biologists who do those works and reports and those kind of things. So you know, so that when we submit, if we know, you know, if we know we got a spawning bed out in front there, we will do the fisheries report that goes with it. So we can say you know, you can put a dock here but not over there, yeah, those kind of things.
Speaker 1:So that's the process and that stuff is is key because and as especially when you're working with the same municipalities and you get to know those municipalities and what they want Correct From from being with Amaranth, I know that a lot of people would, and typically the people that are severing are either farmers, and they were severing under the Farm Surplus Severance Act, or it was people from the south or from the city buying property in the township in Amaranant it's about two hours north of Toronto and not understanding what they need and even having a clue that they're in the Niagara Escarpment or the Grand River Conservation.
Speaker 1:And then you've got to go back and say, yeah, we've got to defer this one, you need to do this, this and this. And then all of a sudden, what typically happens with people when they're doing it by themselves or trying to do it that route is it takes forever because to try and deal with the NEC and then the Grand River, it's not easy dealing with them, especially when you don't know how to deal with them. So, having a person like you in that position to, like you said, head that off at the pass, and then you build the relationship with the municipality because they know, rick knows what he's talking about and this is all good, beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the key. They know that when we're submitting something, we're not trying to pull the wool over their eyes. Yes, we're submitting the necessary reports, you know. I mean, you know if there's Blanding Turtles habitat or Hognose Snake habitat or those kind of things. So we're not trying to hide that, we're highlighting what's there and, yeah, and we can still develop if we protect that, yeah, and so, yeah, there's a, especially in smaller municipalities, like up here in the northeast. There, you know, there's a trust between us and those municipalities. They've known us forever and yeah, and so that makes a difference and and, uh, you know it helps, um, and and I mean the goal is everybody, every, all the municipalities want new development in most cases, yeah, but they want good new development. Yeah, and, and that's that's key and especially with resort properties, yes, yeah, you know, because we're all interested in protecting our lakes and waterways 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as a resort owner or somebody getting into the business, your biggest resource is the watershed that you're on, yeah, and protecting it is the watershed that you're on and protecting it.
Speaker 1:And you know I lived through some turbulent times on Lake Nipissing over the last, you know, 15 years, with the walleye populations and overfishing and the spiny water flea and all of that stuff going on right, and I still live there. I've got my my cottage there. Um, it's very important to me that the fishery stays strong and uh, and, and you don't want to be doing anything detrimental to that. And you know like I mean when you've got a big resort like that there, there are some things that you've got to be careful of. And you know like I mean when you've got a big resort like that there, there are some things that you've got to be careful of and and and, and I know for one, I can only speak for myself as an owner, but I never wanted to do anything but good with that resource and and and with all the other resources the people that come and see you. You know like I mean water treatment and septic treatment and all of that stuff. It's important stuff when you're running a place like that.
Speaker 2:It is. It is and I mean we've got into, you know, during these turbulent times over the last few years and it's been hard for a lot of resort owners and stuff up here to you know costs and most of them are family-run businesses and they're hard to sell and we've got involved in splitting up a lot of resorts. Yeah, you know, and we, I mean consent is the simplest way if you can do it, but most resorts, the buildings and stuff are too close together and stuff, and so we've done several of them where we're dealing with them as vacant land condominiums.
Speaker 1:Oh, really. So how does that work?
Speaker 2:Well, again, it's an application under the planning act.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a much more complicated so what does the end product look like? Are there separate? So you're doing this, the condominium act? Yeah, so does the land remain in one chunk or does each cottage have a small strip of land um associated with it?
Speaker 2:yeah, so that. So that's what it is. So when you do it as a vacant land, like when you have, say, you had a bunch of cabins along the shore, so you would create units for each of those cabins and then they're, you know, if you got a bunch of other acreage and shoreline, that's all common element. I see, okay, which is part of the condominium but is common to each of those owners, yeah, and then the unit they have is theirs exclusive.
Speaker 1:Yes, so this is a deed for the building. Yeah, and how much of an envelope of land is there?
Speaker 2:Well, and that's what we've been able to, the only way we've been able to do them. So there isn't a minimum requirement in doing this Gotcha, because your minimum requirements for frontage and stuff are the whole condo. Yeah, okay, so you create the individual units. Most municipalities have been very receptive to dealing with these in this manner. Yeah, have been very receptive to dealing with these in this manner. I mean, sometimes you get into, you know, complicated communal septic systems that you know we have to, are licensed by MOE and so on, but it is a way that lodge owners have been able to split their property up and be able to get their money out and do it.
Speaker 1:So basically now my question when I'm thinking about this so if I buy one of those cottages, one of the buildings within the whole the condominium, what happens if I want to tear it down and build one twice the size?
Speaker 2:So with a condominium, you'll have a declaration, the same as anybody. You know people understand a standard condominium in an apartment style, in a high-rise, a vacant land condominium is similar in that you have a declaration which lays out all the rules and fundamentals of the condominium, including all the architectural and structural stuff for each individual building, and it'll dictate like colors and size and all kinds of things in there depending. And declarations can be as complicated or as simple as you want them. Yeah, but they govern the condo. Um, for instance, I've I've done them in a resort, okay, so where we did a real upscale one, so the finishes had to be stone and wood, yeah, uh, they had to fit in with the environment, the buildings had to be. They were after a high-end thing, so they had to be a minimum of 2,000 square feet.
Speaker 2:You know that kind of thing. You were allowed one out building. You know you could have one out and it had to match, the had to match. And then there was no like year-round storage of trailers and stuff on the boat. You know, I've done other ones where you limit it, okay, you can store your own boat, and you know that kind of thing and different things. So those are the kind of things that are covered, and it allows all the unit owners to have that warm, fuzzy feeling because they know what the place next door is going to look like, and so it's a great way to deal with some of these things.
Speaker 1:And a good visual, as I'm trying to put it in perspective in my mind, is it's basically just picture a real condominium, a real building, and each unit, each cabin, is one unit within that structure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the difference in from a standard condominium to a vacant land one. The unit owner owns the building, yes, Okay. Whereas in a standard condominium you only own to the backside face of the drywall. That's right. So that unit owner has to maintain that building. Now there are rules in the declaration how it has to be maintained and it actually allows if the person doesn't, the condo corp can go in and do it and charge it back. Yeah, back, charge them. So there are protections.
Speaker 1:Now, in your experience with these, is there any limitations on selling? Because I know, like with the Solid Comfort Fishing Club or these other clubs, where you own your building, it's on a common piece of property, but they govern and say, okay, well, you know, we started this in 1909 and it's families and you've got a, there's a committee and if you want to sell, the new owners have to interview.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's better than that, simply because it's all protected by the Condominium Act and we have Ontario has probably one of the best condominium acts in the world. It was rewritten in 1998 and came into effect in 2005. And it has a lot of public protection built into it so you don't have those issues and the public now are becoming more used to it. I mean, you know people are buying a resort property in that you know have probably been to Florida or Arizona and into gated communities yeah, and I've seen it. Really this is similar to those kind of things, gotcha, and so the apprehension isn't as bad in people buying it. I mean, obviously you do have condo fees that you have to pay every year and so on.
Speaker 1:Well, you got dock maintenance, because your dock is common right Sometimes.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you'll have individual ones on those, but you'll have common element. You've probably got common element roads, yeah, like I've done the one in the West Arm where we did a common element condominium for the road alone and then split up the land by severance and subdivision and all of those owners are the owners of the common element road and so they have to pay a fee to keep that road clear, so you can do.
Speaker 2:There's a whole combination of these things that, yeah, and part of what that. That was all created in the new Condominium Act and part of the idea behind it was to allow for the split up of resort property, because you got municipalities that don't want miles of new roads leading into these things to maintain, yeah for sure, and so you know there are opportunities to do these and create resort properties.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting. That's very interesting. I know that one of the resorts on the Upper French, after I had bought Chaudière, come up for sale. It was called Casablanca and Brian the old owner had sold one cottage. It must have been. He called it a timeshare. Oh yeah, but it was a timeshare that only one couple owned. Right, and I looked at buying that resort at the time, which would have been 10 years ago, but that was one of the deterrents was one of the cottages in the middle of the resort was owned by somebody else and then they didn't really want to sell and it just turned into a whole thing, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we, you know we get into where we're dealing with. You know, families that have owned them forever want to split them up, but we also deal with some speculators who are looking at buying them and then how they can develop them into these things. And you know it's interesting. And there is, I mean, where you have problems. If you're dealing in unorganized areas where you're dealing with the province on this stuff, then it's much, much more difficult. Yeah, there are some benefits. The province isn't nearly as advanced as municipalities are, yeah, or receptive, yeah, and so we generally advise people against trying to do it in those areas.
Speaker 1:And you know what, trying to do it in those areas? Yeah, and you know what? It's surprising how close to southern Ontario there are still unorganized townships. Yeah, like I was saying earlier, where I'm at, chaudière and the island that I have now are both within the township of West Nipissing. Yeah, but the South Shore line, which is, you know, a clutter, it's all unorganized.
Speaker 2:We do a ton of work down there in the whole Loring area and there's lots of development of you know you can only do severances. We can't get subdivisions or condos approved down there, yeah, but there's a lot of resort property through. You know all the lakes up through loring in the river and all those areas yeah yeah, but no, that's very interesting.
Speaker 1:So we've kind of talked a little bit about, um, how to get severances and what the benefits are, and I'll just list the benefits right now. And for me owning the lodge, the benefit was being able to sleep at night knowing that I could sell off a piece of property and not have to sell the lodge property, right. But I'd like to touch on some of the um uh, I don't want to call them uh, uh, negative effects, but just some things that people should be aware about, because I'm going through this process again and, um, one of the the big things that um, you need to think about to make sure if severing is right for you is your taxes, your land taxes, and what's happening is basically, when you have a property we'll take a chaudière, for instance, because I'm very familiar with that when we severed those three lots off, my taxes for the lodge really didn't change because we took 18 and change acres, we severed off three small parcels. It didn't change my tax bill at all, it just it was. Now I'm paying the lodge on 16 acres, but it's the same. And then in those days I think each lot was a little bit different, but it ranged in costs between five and $900 a year in taxes. But if you're, if you're going to add an extra five or six lots and then you don't really want to sell them like that's the kind of the situation that I'm looking at now.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to leave a legacy for my kids. I've got my cottages on a fairly large island and I want to leave them each a lot so that when I die there's not a family feud that tears the family apart, because a lot of people don't realize that's a real thing. You know, when you've got an asset in the family that very well could appreciate by a lot over one's lifetime, when you're trying to pass that on to the kids and you want to at least know that that legacy is going to last for another generation, leaving it in one piece is not a good way to do it, Because inevitably with four kids like I've got four kids Inevitably there's a fight, yeah, and somebody wants to sell, and then somebody doesn't want to sell and then you can't, you don't have the money to buy them out, and it just gets real, real nasty, yeah. So for me, severing the island into lots that I can leave my kids is my goal, right, but it's an expensive one.
Speaker 2:It's an expensive one, there's no way around that. You're always going to have that, you know. So everybody's got to weigh their own in their own mind, the benefits and the. That's right and but certainly you know doing it. I always advise people okay, you could wait 10 years and do it and you're going to save the taxes on. You know, for instance, this one on five more lots for 10 years. But we don't know what the government of the day is going to be and what the policies are going to be on that lot creation. And 10 years from now you may not be able to create those lots, and that's a very real thing, like just in the time.
Speaker 1:from Chaudière until now the rules in West Nipissing have changed. I watched the rules in the township of Amaranth change over the course of two years when I was there. Now, mind you, their official plan was kind of you know, but those things change and it blows with the wind.
Speaker 2:It does and changes. We're seeing many, many changes right now under the provincial government in terms of the Planning Act and development to create more housing. There are also they're coming out with more rural policies that the province are forcing onto the municipalities, but you can have a change of government that reverses those as well. Yeah, so you know you have to. Yeah, I always advise people if the policies are favorable right now, take advantage of them, and that's exactly what I have always done.
Speaker 1:And the other real benefit, and let's be real about it 18 acres as one lot or one island is worth I don't even know, but let's call it 800,000. 18 acres, as five, two and three acre lots, is worth at least double. Double that, yeah. Eighteen acres as five, two and three acre lots is worth at least double that, yeah, absolutely so. Like I mean, although, yes, I'm, it's a legacy for my children. And yes, it's a legacy for my children because now, all of a sudden, I'm leaving an asset Well, it's not actually an asset, because it costs you money to maintain it, but that's a different debate but I'm leaving them a parcel of land each that carries a lot of value absolutely.
Speaker 2:And they aren't making any more waterfront, no, they're not, not on the upper French river.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you that it's you know's, you know, I mean, you know, I have a place on a lake east of here, on Tallon Lake, where it's, you know, over half of the lake is water access. My place is water access, but most of the land on the lake is crown land. It's all part of the Mat, the mattawa river, yeah, uh, provincial heritage park, and so there can be no development of any other. So what you see is what you get, and yeah, so you um, it's the same as the french river, the whole french river uh being uh canada's first, uh heritage river, I think they the designation came in 86 or 87.
Speaker 1:And the first hundred meters of all of the shoreline that's not freehold is French River Provincial Park and then Crown behind it. So what you see is what you get. The only difference that I have seen a little bit is when there's parcels of property like the one that I bought with 18 acres, you can split it up Right, but as far as land creation, it ain't happening. In every angler's heart lives a fishing paradise With stunning scenery and wildlife, on a trophy multi-species fishery, having outstanding accommodation and a food experience to die for. They treat you like royalty, tailor-making a package that works for you. Nestled in northwestern Ontario, nordic Point Lodge is that paradise, and Will and his team can't wait to show you a luxury outdoor experience with five-star service. So follow your heart. Book now.
Speaker 5:As the world gets louder and louder, the lessons of our natural world become harder and harder to hear, but they are still available to those who know where to listen. I'm Jerry Ouellette and I was honoured to serve as Ontario's Minister of Natural Resources. However, my journey into the woods didn't come from politics. Rather, it came from my time in the bush and a mushroom. In 2015, I was introduced to the birch-hungry fungus known as chaga, a tree conch with centuries of medicinal use by Indigenous peoples all over the globe.
Speaker 5:After nearly a decade of harvest use, testimonials and research, my skepticism has faded to obsession and I now spend my life dedicated to improving the lives of others through natural means. But that's not what the show is about. My pursuit of the strange mushroom and my passion for the outdoors has brought me to the places and around the people that are shaped by our natural world. On Outdoor Journal Radio's Under the Canopy podcast, I'm going to take you along with me to see the places, meet the people. That will help you find your outdoor passion and help you live a life close to nature and under the canopy. Find Under the Canopy now on Spotify, apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1:Listen, rick, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you this loaded question, because you've been in this business for a long time. Is it easier today, in a time when we need to build homes, is it easier today to build homes than it was, say, 25, 30 years ago?
Speaker 2:No, it's much, much more difficult now. And is it getting?
Speaker 1:more difficult by the day, or are they like? I mean, we hear all of the stuff about the government saying we want to make it easier, we want to build homes, but rare do us, the Diaries listeners, the people that watch the news, the locals have an insight that you have because this is your business and you deal with it every day. Are they doing it?
Speaker 2:No, they're not. Their motives are good in wanting to do it right now. Yeah, but talk is cheap. But talk is cheap and we got three levels of government, you know the federal, provincial and they're not working together to solve the problem and that's until they start to. It won't get any better. It won't get any better. You also need to.
Speaker 2:As much as we say we need more homes and we need more development. You know, and obviously we do, there's a huge housing shortage. There's a huge shortage here in North Bay. However, every we do we work for most of the developers in the region. We do all their planning and proposals. You know we went to council two weeks ago here with a proposal for 48 units stacked townhouse, you know, to bring in housing units at a price point that's more affordable, that we don't have in our community right now. Yeah, and you got 50 people showing up from the neighborhood objecting to it. Okay, and that's what you, the public, are. Still, there's a huge amount of nimbyism out there. Yeah, and I mean you're always when you're dealing with changes. I mean you're. You know a person's home is their castle.
Speaker 2:And if you want to make a change next door, it upsets them.
Speaker 1:I like the trees that I see in my backyard, even though I don't own them. Yeah, I like them there. Yeah. The real estate, even though I don't own them yeah, I like them there, yeah.
Speaker 2:The real estate agent told me that was Greenbelt or Greenspace. Yeah, but realistically we're not there. The province have actually made some gains over the last two years in some of their changes and they are seemingly working with the municipalities. You know, as long as the municipalities are willing to change, I mean that depends on the individual council.
Speaker 1:it's at the time and that, like I mean, I didn't realize how much of an impact municipal councils can have until I was a member of one. I didn't up until, and I kind of got one of the councillors quit and a buddy of mine was a councillor and phoned me and said hey, you'd make a great councillor, why don't you apply? And that's how I ended up on council. So I was never actually voted in, but I did a two a half year stint and before that point, if you had have asked me what went on at the municipal level, I couldn't have told you yeah, the general public have no
Speaker 2:idea how important their municipal councillors are, how important their municipal councillors are and unfortunately, therefore, they don't vote wisely.
Speaker 2:No, they vote on name recognition or whatever, and we see this and we're seeing actually we're seeing more councils that are dysfunctional, because you have a lot of people running who are special interest groups yeah, act, where there's voting online now, and so on. You're getting a lot of people elected who aren't running for the right reasons, for the general good of the public. They have one interest and one goal, and so we're finding councils that are extremely divided and hard to deal with and because it's not like our provincial or federal system where there's a party system and they follow the line, you know, for instance, here in North Bay, you've got 10 councillors who all have 10 different opinions, yeah, and the level of cooperation is not.
Speaker 1:And the level of cooperation is not Well and, to be honest, from being on that side at that level, there's still a personal part in it where if one councillor doesn't like another councillor or there's quarrels within council and believe me, we had our fair share, that cost the township some money nothing gets done. That's good.
Speaker 2:No well, west Nipsey, where you are, and the island here. Okay, their last council got disbanded because they had one councilor that quit. So then there was eight of them and this four hated the other four, and it didn't matter what came. They voted yes, they voted no, and then they couldn't even agree on an agenda. So they didn't have council meetings for six months, so they got disbanded, and that's extreme. They didn't have council meetings for six months, so they got disbanded. That's extreme. And another one, black River Matheson, north of here. Just the same thing has just happened.
Speaker 1:Well, I found that, after kind of seeing it, there's a couple of different people that run for council. There's the one that you mentioned, the person who has a specific agenda that has nothing to do with the best interests of everybody within the township or the city. You have the type that does it because they want to say that they're a councillor or they're deputy mayor, and it's more of an egotistical thing. And then you've got the rare person who wants to do it because they have a fairly solid moral compass and truly want to help and do what's best for a community, want to help and do what's best for a community, and those people are becoming few and far between because and I think it's just a product of the size of the different communities that are starting to mesh and there's not, and I don't know what the right answer is- Well, it's a different mentality people have.
Speaker 2:I have a good friend of mine who's a lawyer and he was on council for a number of years and he's always been a leader in the community, business-wise and so on and I asked him one day we were having lunch. I said you know, why did you ever run for council? Well, he said it's the way I was brought up as a leader in the community. That was your civic duty. Yeah, okay, and it was a you know philosophy that you know the people years ago were brought up with and people who were leaders in the community had a civic duty to give back to the community. And I don't know, there seems to be less understanding of that these days than there was. You know, that's my perception of it.
Speaker 1:And I totally agree and, like from the town that I live closest to, which is Shelburne, ontario, our demographic has changed dramatically, being so close to the GTA, and houses used to be more affordable. You know, being an hour and a half right, being an hour and a half right, and it's the communities that I think that there's that sense of civic duty, but it's to different communities now. Yeah, and it's tough right, and, like I say, I don't know how to fix it, I know it's a problem and the money that townships have. The other thing I will say about the councils and the town councils it is a very underappreciated and underpaid position. Oh, absolutely, you know.
Speaker 1:And when you say civic duty, it truly is a civic duty. Like I mean my salary for a year, and that doesn't include. And like I mean if you want a nickel and dime and count every kilometer and every bit of gas you spend to drive to the Grand Valley Library committee meeting and you know you could catch yourself an extra couple of shekels. Yeah, but I never bothered with any of that shit. I didn't have time to fill it all out for 25 bucks or whatever it was, but I was making about $9,000 a year. I didn't even cover my home taxes. No, you know, yeah, and I did it because I wanted to try it and I wanted to see how it worked and do my civic duty. And after the term was over, I said no, that's enough for me, it's an onerous task and I admire everybody who does it.
Speaker 1:As dysfunctional as a lot of them are, and that there's all kinds of truth to that statement and nobody can argue that. For those of you out there who do want to see great things happen in your community, please step up. You know, because it is, there are, and you know, being a councillor, there were some moments that I felt really good about what we did. One of them was a firearms bylaw in the township, and I firmly believe, if I hadn't have been on council, that the hunting and recreational shooting within the township would have been severely restricted if I wasn't there to say whoa.
Speaker 1:Now, it was an extreme situation that caused this, which was we had residents who were target shooting with high-powered rifles and the bullets were flying through the concession, across the road and being embedded in somebody's house. But at the end of the day, that doesn't call for a total moratorium on gunfire in a farming community, right? So there are some things that you can do that are great. Yeah, do that aren't great, but yeah, it's. And it's unfortunate that all of this talk about building houses just to circle back to the, to the question. It's unfortunate, it's not getting easier, and, and, the, the I, and and and. Your explanation wasn't what I was thinking about the communication between the municipalities but it is so true. Now thinking about it, my thought was immigration. And how can we keep inviting people to Canada when we don't have anywhere to put them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's part of what's causing the problem, but it's.
Speaker 1:But that's not. The problem is actually building houses, it's not. The immigration is just a part of the problem, it's an external part.
Speaker 2:Well, if you look at, you know it's the cost and the cost of building houses. You look in the GTA area right now the average single family house okay that you're to build, you will have over $100,000 in municipal fees in order to get that building permit. That is ridiculous.
Speaker 1:You go back. I bought my first house in Shelburne okay, which is an hour and 20 minutes north of Toronto In 2002, I took possession in 2002, in the fall, and it was a brand new. I had a half an acre lot in town, beautiful bungalow, 1500 square feet, and it cost me $170,000. And now we're getting close to that in permits. And where does that money go?
Speaker 2:Well, it goes to paying the people. There's development charges, there's special area charges, there's your building permit fees, all these other different things that are added on. And you know you can't. You know people, you know why can't you build a cheaper house? Well, you can't. It costs you that base amount for that property. It costs you that base amount for that property. And so you know, I mean, we see we have developers here in town, good clients of ours, building. You know small 1,200-square-foot bungalows out in the rural area, a basic bungalow. You know, basement not finished? Yeah, and right now in this area around here finished. And right now in this area around here they got to get between 450 and 500 for that to make any money In North Bay, yeah. So you know, that just puts it all in perspective and you know what people can afford to do.
Speaker 1:Well, with inflation and interest rates and everything else, I don't even know how people are surviving right now. You know I'm blessed to not have a mortgage, not have truck payments and we still with four kids and taxes, and you know everything else. My monthly bills are 10 grand, yeah for sure, and I don't even have any of this other stuff. You know, I feel like I mean I feel for a lot of people and you know, hopefully, and yes, I'm going to say it, hopefully this liberal Trudeau government is eradicated from the face of this planet and the conservatives can come in and maybe make some of the necessary changes to reverse some of the generational damage that this liberal government has done. Now that's on the soapbox, folks. You know, and that's my personal thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, we definitely need some change and you know these things. It's hard but it's. You know they have to, we have to, and that's part of the problem is that level of government isn't cooperating with the provincial and the municipal, or trying to jump over the province and the municipal, or trying to jump over the province and tell the municipalities what to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know for one municipalities. Don't like listening to that.
Speaker 2:No, no, and you know, yeah, they're offering carrots out there money, but there's so many strings attached to the carrot that you can't get to them.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, I think those carrots are meant to be carrots for them, so that it's propaganda to vote.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right. All this money that's being put out for housing grants and all this other stuff, most of it is never going to get out there because the strings attached will never allow it to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's near impossible to get a hold of. It's the old bait and switch, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's where we are. I mean it's, you know, I mean our job. What we do for clients is try and wind the way through the bureaucracy to get them what they want at the end, and do it in the most efficient manner, yeah, and I mean we work for developers, and I mean developers, at the end of the day, are only in the development business to make some money. They have to be able to make money at the end of the day, or they're not going to do it.
Speaker 1:That's right. And, speaking a lot of people think oh, developers, they got all kinds of money, they got this and that, but what they do carries some risk, Huge risk. These development plans take so long and they're buying property and typically you'd buy a piece of property and you certainly hope that over the course of a decade you'd buy a piece of property and you certainly hope that over the course of a decade which I'm not sure if that's an average for some of these developments to go, start to finish, but I think I'm probably in the neighborhood they hope that that property value will go up and typically in the past it has, but over the last, you know, few years. Things are a little shaky.
Speaker 2:Well, and the cost of developing, like to develop residential properties within a municipality, which is, you know, what we help clients with. We have large staff doing that. We design all the engineering, all the services, everything, do the whole thing for them. But the risks. You buy a piece of property, then you get. You go through the planning approval to get the subdivision approved. Then you design and get approved your streets, your services, everything. Then you install them. So even you know if you're doing a 20, 25 lot residential subdivision here in town, excluding what you paid for the land before you sell your first lot and get your first dollar in, you're going to be somewhere in the area of a couple of million dollars of invested in that in services. Yeah, and you got to have deep pockets and lots of patience.
Speaker 1:That's a virtue that not many of us have.
Speaker 2:And it takes a long, you know, and lenders are not, they don't like to lend on those things. Well, because it takes so long. They want too much security, yeah, and so, you know, it's become more and more difficult to develop plans. Yeah, and that's why it's going from the old, you know, the old mom and pop companies that develop, you know, did a little subdivision, made a few bucks, did this. Those days are not. Days are basically gone. It's got to be bigger corporations who have more assets to be able to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sounds like farming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, the days of the 100-acre farm and the family farm are gone and now you've got industrial. You've got to have 1,000 acres even in where I'm at, unless you know there, a thousand acres even in where, where I'm at, unless you're you know there's that little organic niche, but like I mean it's, it's very reminiscent of that, yeah, but, um, well, listen, rick, um, thank you so much for talking to us and and uh, um, uh, enlightening us on, uh, on the uh, severance, saying, and I know it's been something that has been a key part of my business plans throughout my businesses and I really appreciate everything that you've done for me truly, because in the beginning I knew nothing about what went on and you took that and uh, and it was. It was so reasonable and easy for me and I appreciate that and anybody that that is looking for for somebody. Rick Miller, um is the uh, is the guy North Bay, you'll find them. And uh, I uh. Again, thank you very much and folks, thank you for listening up until this point.
Speaker 3:You know I love you and if you love me, leave a like five star comment on it, and thus brings us to the end of another episode of Diaries of a Lodge Owner my life. Someday I might own a lodge, and that'd be fine. I'll be making my way, the only way I know how working hard and sharing the north with all of my pals.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm a good old boy.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm a good old boy. I bought a lodge and lived my dream.
Speaker 1:And now I'm here talking about how life can be as good as it seems.
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Speaker 3:You're going to flip that duck breast over. Once you get a nice hard sear on that breast, you don't want to sear the actual meat. And it's not just us chatting here. If you can name a celebrity, we've probably worked with them and I think you might be surprised who likes to hunt and fish. When Kit Harington asks me to prepare him sashimi with his bass, I couldn't say no. Whatever Taylor Sheridan wanted, I made sure I had it. Burgers, steak, anything off the barbecue. That's a true cowboy. All Jeremy Renner wanted to have was lemon ginger shots all day. Find Eating Wild now on Spotify. Apple Podcasts or wherever else you get your podcasts.