GRIEVING ROOM: Sibling loss, imperfect goodbyes and making space for grief with Leanne Friesen

“Grieving room is endangered in a culture that thinks it is more helpful to rush past grief than to lean into it.”

Leanne Friesen is the brilliant soul behind the groundbreaking book, "Grieving Room: Making Space for All the Hard Things After Death and Loss."

As the curator of the popular Instagram platform, @grieving.room, she has cultivated a nurturing space for those navigating the tumultuous waters of grief.

With a profound understanding that grief defies easy solutions, Leanne advocates for the power of creating room for the complexities of grief, rather than rushing to fix or diminish it.

Drawing upon her extensive experience as an ordained minister and grief educator spanning over two decades, Leanne offers invaluable insights into the sacred process of grief, and how the cognitive understanding of loss and grief falls short of the lived experience.

She learned this heartbreaking reality after the loss of her sister, Roxanne, after an eight-year battle with melanoma.

In this episode, we discuss imperfect goodbyes, sibling loss, living the "are you serious?!" era after loss, making room to grieve, and so much more!

Leanne Friesen Social & Website:

• Instagram: @grieving.room & @leanne_friesen
• Buy GRIEVING ROOM book
• Website: leanfriessen.com

Nina Rodriguez Social & Website:

• Instagram: @griefandlight
• Website: griefandlight.com
• Ways to Work with Me
• Subscribe to my newsletter

Disclaimer: griefandlight.com/safetyanddisclaimers

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Transcript

I thought I'd be pretty good at grief because I had studied it a lot. I mean, I didn't think it would make it easier. I just thought I would know what to do. And then I had the personal experience of being absolutely flabbergasted by it being so much harder than I thought. You just lost your loved one. Now what? Welcome to the Grief in Life podcast, where we explore this new reality through grief colored lenses openly and authentically. I'm your host, Nina Rodriguez. Let's get started. Breathing room is endangered and a culture that thinks it is more helpful to rush past grief than to lean into it. That is a quote from a book by today's guest Liane Friesen, the brilliant soul behind the groundbreaking book Grieving Room. Making space for All the Hard Things After Death and Loss. As the curator of the popular Instagram platform as Grieving Room, she has cultivated a nurturing space for those navigating the tumultuous waters of grief with a profound understanding that grief defies easy solutions. Lianne advocates for the power of creating room for the complexities of grief rather than rushing to fix or diminish it. Drawing upon her extensive experience as an ordained minister and grief educator spanning over two decades. She offers invaluable insights into the sacred process of grief. And I am thrilled to welcome our guest today, Leon Friesen, to the Grief and Light podcast. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your time and your beautiful work. I was commenting before we started to record that your Instagram account was one of the first grief resources that I found in my journey, and it was very helpful. It speaks to very digestible, palatable ways to give words to this very nuanced and complex experience. Where did this all begin for you? What inspired the account? What inspired you on this journey? I know that you had a professional tie to grief prior to the personal one. So where did this all begin for you? You know, funny enough, I can go back many years and realize I was always interested in people's experience of death and of loss. And I don't think I've said this in any other interview I've done, but even as a young teenager, I went to the season where I would say I had profound death anxiety when I was about 13. Like I wasn't sleeping at night. I probably should have seen a therapist. I was really, really scared of the idea of death, scared of what would happen and scared to talk about it. So I think these questions weighed on me really from a young age. And then even when I went to university and I was in a program that was actually about sort of moving into education, I was doing like the psychology of death and dying. And then I went in to training to become a pastor, Christian pastor. And so in that role, I was doing funerals all the time, maybe not all the time, fortunately, but, you know, as they came up and walking with people who had new losses or old losses. Right. Things that people are carrying when you meet with them and you're caring for them, that's part of your job. And I continue to study this, do courses, you know, sort of lean into these topics when I had chances to learn more. And it was something I actually I was really cared about and was passionate about. And then came the experience, which of course, I talk about extensively, my book and on the Instagram account of my own sister dying, which actually overlapped with me stepping full time into being a pastor. And I actually it's the first chapter book I talk about. I'm getting ready to start this new career. I started this church and right at that time my sister is diagnosed with very late stage cancer. And so even the first eight years that I was in that role, the shadow of that fear before she then died was there and shaping me. And then she died. And as I talk about in the book. I thought I'd be pretty good at grief because I had studied it a lot. I mean, I didn't think it would make it easier. I just thought I would know what to do. And then I had the personal experience of being absolutely flabbergasted by it being so much harder than I thought and so much more difficult and confusing and complicated. And just a million misconceptions that I had about grief. And then because I really had this ability to, you know, I was regularly teaching people in my role off and doing speaking events, workshops, retreats. I had a blog, you know. You know, early 2000 and early, I guess, 20 tens. And I started talking about this more and I would hear people comment, how is my experience this? What happened to me? Oh, yes, exactly. Thank you for saying this. My heart just kept going more and more like we need to make space for grief. We need to make space for grief. People aren't talking about this enough. People are always trying to fix it. They're trying to make it better. And we need grieving room. So after doing sort of all these little bits here and there, I ultimately said, I kept saying, you know, I think if I just as a platform just focused on grief instead of sort of my general blog, I think that would be something that would be valuable. And so I started doing that right at the same time that I ultimately said, I think I need to write this book. I think there's a book connected to this. And I came up just kind of out of nowhere. I kept saying, you know, giving grief space. And then one day I just grieving. And then that title really settled with me. So then over the last few years, I was cultivating this page and doing exactly what you said, really seeking to provide these pieces that for someone who especially is newly grieving, that they can read and manage and go, okay, I'm normal. Okay, that makes sense. Yes, that's logical. Or that, you know, that that that helps me on my road. And as I was doing that, I was seeking publication of the book. So they sort of overlapped at the same time. But all of it this might be a bit of a longer answer than you're anticipating was all coming back to this desire to make space for grief and ultimately to help people greedy and those who want to help them. And I should add that to write that I also hoped it would help people think through how they respond to readers and how they engage with people grieving and so many ways. My story is probably similar to you write like triggered by this great loss and looking around at what's out there and in wanting to be able to provide something that maybe would have been helpful for me and for you, thank you for your work and for answering the call. It sounds like as you evolved and as things happen in life and the loss of your sister and through your work, it sounds like you kept funneling it down, getting a little bit more specific niching down into the topic of grief, specifically because you noticed how there's a lack of awareness or maybe a dissonance. There's this base, there's a room in between the actual experience and what people think it is, and you're filling that space. And I love the name. I think the name is absolutely appropriate. And it's interesting that you said this in a way, started when you were a teenager. Right. So you had a concern yet. Was it a specific experience? Was it generalized feeling that you had at the time? Yeah. You know, it's funny, I'm even actually piecing some of this together now. I remember it was quite triggered by when I was 13, my sister, my other sister, the one who's still living, she was living going away to school and she had a good friend take their own life, which was really, really traumatic for her, as of course it was. And this was quite a cloud over our house because we were so worried for her and heartbroken for her and, you know, were far away as she was processing this profound loss. And I remember just stopping and thinking about what would happen to him and what did this mean and how do you even make sense of this person who was here and now they're not? And it was someone that I didn't know, but I guess it was watching someone grieve even from a distance and feeling their grief. And I started to just really think about these bigger life questions. I admit I was a melancholy teenager. I was very esoteric and very, you know, life. I have a very depressing journal. You would think my life was just awful by my poetry in high school. You know, I often was wrestling with those questions. And I love when you use the word call because I think my call kept narrowing. And I think you're right. I do feel like this is a profound call and it did keep narrowing down. So yeah, I think it started with my own experience of like these questions are hard and scary and no one talks about them. And I know I was young. I can vividly remember sitting at the supper table and thinking, Ask Mom, ask her, ask mum, and being like too scared to even talk about it. Like, say what? What do you think happened to him or why did he do that and just not saying anything? Because it didn't feel like something I could talk about. It would have been okay if I did. I know that now, but I. I felt even too scared to talk about it. And I've talked to a lot of people who have that experience as a teenager. So I think even as a young person, I think even culturally we are really sort of shaped in those moments to push that down and to not think about it too much. There's some message we get out there that that's a bad thing and I don't know where that would have come from, but it's certainly something I felt that's very interesting, that progression and how those questions started early on saying melancholy teenager over. Yeah can relate to that I know but it's it's a mind that wants to understand and it's a spirit that wants to understand the bigger picture of why things happen. And I get that. I get that fully. So that definitely resonates. And I'm sorry it was with, with that type of loss. Yeah. Pretty heavy especially when we don't have the word. Know him. I never met this man in my life. So it was an interesting trickle down effect, you know. Yeah. And we're we're even mentioning. This person today, and I know he was, but Grant and I didn't know him. But yet he had this big, big impact on me in a family and thankful that at least there's that element of help that I think he helped me start thinking about some important things. But at the time, it was all very scary, definitely. And it is scary, you know, grief. And that was a scary topic. And I think that's part of why people avoid a we we live in a pain avoidant culture and that is part of the disconnect, grief and such language. And your book and your work help bring words and understanding to that language. It's like building common ground for both the river and the people supporting their griever. So I think that's a that's a beautiful, beautiful space to be in, to be able to give words to an experience that is so nuanced, both through your work and through your personal experience. So your sister, her name is Roxann, she unfortunately had an eight year battle with melanoma, from my understanding. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. So she was diagnosed in 2005 and I talk about this in the book. You know, she found a spot on her head. She was scratching it for a few months, looked like a pimple. She had thick hair, so really easy to overlook. Of course, as I talk about in the book, Roxane was a super interesting person, so she had spent her young adulthood traveling the world, lying on beaches in Spain and Greece and, you know, the era of the baby oil all over your body to get that fabulous tan before anyone knew this was a risky thing, of course. And her good friend actually sort of said, let me look at that one day when she's looking at it. And he said, you should come into my office this week and I'll remove which none of us. Funny enough, when she started telling us I talk about this in the book, really registered enough. You know, that's an odd thing. Even if you have a friend who's a doctor to do, like come in this week and let me look at that. And it turned out that she, you know, had melanoma. Now, the hard thing with melanoma and anyone who's had a loved one die from melanoma or really battle it. And of course, any disease or struggle can be like this is there's so many different experiences of melanoma. So often those first few months when I'd say, you know, my sister has melanoma, the most common response was, oh, don't worry about that. My uncle had he had a melanoma last week and he had it cut off and he was fine. She's true of most melanomas, right? So that's stage one. And then I'd have to say she's stage three. It's, it's in her lymph nodes, it's spreading. And so she very quickly had it was already quite spread. So that had surgery. You know what she did like a year of treatment came back. So it was this journey of. With surgery, do a treatment on our hair. Is this a new one? Because it was spreading slowly through her body. So for eight years it was this shadow over us. Right? She had lots of stretches of health. She was always getting stuff cut off. Like anytime she went, you know, every six months she'd go and there'd be something that they'd say, Let's remove that. And then ultimately in 2013, you know, this growth came on her leg. I can still picture was horrifying. And, you know, when they did the scan, well, the people have cancer. Know this, right? It's it's in your liver. It's here. It's there. And then that was ultimately the one that was you know, it had spread too far, too fast, and there were no treatments left. There's so many different ways that people experience death. You had such a sudden, horrible loss. We had so many years to prepare for which I'm so thankful. But then part of me was left with this naivete that I'd be prepared and that, well, listen, we've had eight years to get ready for this in so many ways. And then when I was still reeling from grief, that threw me for a loop, too, because I thought I should I thought I pre grieved enough I for a lot of people use that to write that I pre-agreed and anticipatory grief is real but you can't fully grieve ahead. That was an interesting journey to discover that. Don't know if that answered your question. They almost narrowed. Yeah. So we had, you know, there's so many layers to different types of losses. Yeah. And when you gather with other graeber's, it's so important that we recognize the differences are our experiences. I cannot understand what it's like to get a call that my brother is just gone, right? That is so traumatic. And in the same way someone else, they haven't had the experience of that slow fear that you carry through all those years. So we have to be so empathetic to each other and grief can create great empathy. And sometimes we can be really competitive as greeters readers to the lack of a better term, you know, and it can make sense, right? You know, we kind of want to our grief each other, mine was worse. This is harder. And and and it's it's all our desire to legitimize how much her grief matters to us. Right. And I have to remember when people are doing that well, you know, your sister is 48. Mine was only 40. And it's their way of saying, I'm so sad. I'm like, that's what we're trying to say, right? And so we need to give each other that grace, I think. Have you have that experience? Yes. And I believe, you know, I came to the conclusion the worst grief is our own. It's the one that we feel intimately. And in my early grief, I remember thinking, would it have been better if I had the ability to say goodbye to my brother? Would that have been better in speaking with people such as yourself and other people who have lost, you know, cancer being the one that allows you for that, quote unquote long goodbye, it doesn't sound any better. Neither of them are better or worse. It's just they're both equally horrible experiences, whether you got to say goodbye or not, because sometimes even that goodbye is so prolonged, so painful, such a slow deterioration that I heard somebody referring to it as having sand run through your fingers like you're trying to hang on to sand running through your fingers. Yeah. And I said, Gosh, that's pretty awful, too. So I stopped comparing grief. I stopped comparing my grief. I even, in a way, stopped wondering. I just said It's awful either way, you know, it's so painful. And the lived experience for each person, whether you got to say goodbye or not, is very unique and it's very nuanced The wondering is normal. Yeah. You know, I have a chapter called Room for Imperfect Goodbyes, and I talk about this goodbye narrative we have in culture, and I blame movies and TV shows for this. And it's going to be. Yeah, it's a pet peeve. Yeah. And I absolutely hate deathbed scenes in movies of someone who's had cancer because I've yet to see one that's accurate because even this image and, you know, anyone who's lost them to cancer or a prolonged illness, I suspect many will say, yeah, goodbye doesn't even happen then like without. Because to use my experience as an example when Roxanna was well enough to say goodbye. She didn't want to because she still felt well. Right. So when she was well enough to have that big, meaningful conversation, you know, there might be little snippets, little nuances. And then what happens is the person who's dying often doesn't. And I'm saying this, someone who's worked with a lot of people who died and that and they go, that's exactly my experience. And then when they sort of cross to this place where the illness is is taking over and they're not themselves anymore, they're not able to say that goodbye in the way you might want. And it's actually really common, shocking in as it is for someone who has lost someone to a prolonged illness to go. I never had that goodbye either. I had the chance to prepare it and maybe I could say goodbye like I could say it to them, which I was able to do, but we didn't have like a conversation because of that. Timely, right? So even then it's complicated and I think we put so much pressure on this image of goodbye that's so hard for people. Yes. Which is why I did this chapter room for imperfect goodbyes. Right. That so I'm going to tell you, of all the people I've worked with who died, who've lost loved ones, I could count on one hand, I'm not exaggerating until like a hundred funerals. The people who've said we had the good bye, we want it right probably won't end because it never feels adequate somehow. Right? So I hope that releases people. Hope people sometimes you might have lots of beautiful moments and you'll learn to accept them as your moment and what was meaningful to you and what was special to you. I'm going to use a super silly example. I actually I don't know why this came to my mind. Forgive me. I don't know if you remember the show, how I met your mother. You're a bit younger than me. It's older. It's in syndication. You know, I remember it, but I don't I'm not sure if I watched it. So there's a spoiler for anyone not watching the series, but there's a scene. People watching my age, there would have been a thirties and there's an episode where his father dies. One of the characters, and I still think it's one of the best TV episodes I've seen about death. Like his reaction to that death was so authentic. He has a heart attack, but the whole Lex episode, it's a comedy. He's obsessed with the fact that he didn't have a mask. Everyone's telling the story of their last conversation with their father and how he didn't have a good last conversation. I was like, You know, the last thing he said to me was this, and the last thing he said to me was this. And he's so upset because when he answers, when he looks at his dad's last conversation, he says, Have you ever seen Crocodile Dundee two? It's totally adds on is like, How could my dad's last conversation with me be Crocodile Dundee two? And it's such a great example of what happens. And then what ends up happening in the story is he listens to the message further, like first, then he discovers there is a pocket doll, but when he goes to the end his dad goes, Oh, a pocket doll. That's been years since I've seen this. And he says, Sorry, I love you, son. And then he goes, All my dad's last words were, I love you. But when he gets up to speak at the funeral, he tells the Crocodile Dundee story. And I actually love that. Now, as someone who does more grief work, because I love that that became beautiful to him. Like it became beautiful to him that like, yeah, because my dad was goofy and we shared that and it was, it's but and that, that goodbye actually became the one he leaned into, which I think is really cool. So I know it's kind of a silly example, but I think that that's part of what happens in our grief journeys is we look back and what feels an adequate in those last moments. We find a way as time goes on, to look for the beauty in them in a new way. Sometimes it's hard to do. Sometimes there's there's not beauty in those stones because sometimes they were horrible. But we also find that, you know, well, that week before he died, I remember this or that month before and we find those things. Yeah, that gives a vivid visual of the reality of it. There is perfection in the imperfection. The goodbyes, more often than not, are not what we thought they would be. And even if they were, they probably didn't feel like we thought they would. The experience itself is so valid. I do want to talk about how you wanted to have the experience of being alone with your sister, and that was very that felt like something that was very important to you and that you wanted to do something specific with her. There's a couple of things I want to comment as we go there that come to my mind. We have a huge family. My parents are both from like nine and we have 15/1 cousins and now it's big. So and then her husband's four seven like huge, huge pile. Yeah. And so there's lots people and she she had she taught in school so she had lots of friends and she lived in the same town for years. So just lots and lots of people were around all the time. It was so constantly crowded. And one thing I just want to say as we transition to your second question is one thing I invite people to keep in mind, even if you you love someone who's dying, is to think about it from their perspective because you might want that big moment with them, but recognize that your moment is like maybe moment 200. That they've had, and that can actually be very emotionally exhausting for a dreamer. And so I watched that with my sister. And it's all good intentions, right? And I remember one day a person stopped by. I had no idea who they were. I'd never met them before. And if you love Roxanne and you're this person. No, no hard feelings. I wouldn't even recognize what I say in the street. And she was about a month before she died. But it was after we knew no more treatments that she wasn't well. But she, you know, she was still coherent. They give her a big hug and, you know, they cried on her shoulder. Just want to tell you that I love you. And I want to say that, you know, it's been wonderful to know you. And it was this goodbye and you saw them, like, feel so good about it. And they laughed. And she looked at me and she went, Yeah, I can't do that every day. Oh, my God. You know, just. And how could you? Right. So now imagine someone doing that every time they see someone. And so I really said to myself, I'm not going to be that person because I wanted those moments, too. I wanted the big. Tell you everything that's on my heart. And I was like, well, my gift of love to her will be, you know, not try to make every conversation meaningful as it's exhausting, right? That is. But it didn't mean I didn't want it. You know, I talk in the book about a couple of times I was like, well, I had a moment to try this out, a moment I try this about a month before she died, when I'd spent like ten days at her house. And again, this was when she was kind of crossing over and there was tons of visitors. And I really wanted this time alone with her. Just people hadn't shown up yet. It was early in the morning. Her kids had just gone to school. Her husband stepped up to shovel, and I was like, Oh my goodness, there's no one here about us and what am I going to do with this magic moment? And I broke my promise and to myself the promise I made to myself. And I was just, you know, shared some thoughts. And I just said. I really wish we could have been all together. And she said we could have went to Florida. And that broke me like that. It was years I carried. I still can't go to Florida. People bring up Florida. I get emotional about it and I'm like, Oh, I don't know. Because it's funny, we never talked about going to Florida, but all of a sudden I pictured like being old ladies together in Florida, and it felt like something had been stolen from me that we couldn't be old ladies in Florida. And then her husband came back. And I mean, that was just this kind of weird, not big moment, but there was something really powerful about it. But then as I knew her life was ending, I wanted to bless her and so on. So many faith traditions, there's this tradition of blessing. Yeah. And this idea of just offering them a hope, a sense of their future. And again, so many faiths have this. And I had started singing since my child was born, this blessing song over her. She'd been given this CD with this beautiful blessing song, and the words were the Lord bless you and keep you the Lord make his face shine upon you, glory gracious to you and give you peace. It's called the Deuteronomy blessing. If anyone has that background, it's using both Judaism and Christianity found in the Old Testament. I wanted to sing this song over her. I just was so adamant. I wanted to do this and. Could have asked, like I could have said to people, Could I have 5 minutes? But it was always so crowded and there was always someone else in the room, someone else in the room, and they wouldn't have minded sharing that. But I didn't want to share it. I guess it was the day before she died. I had this moment where I look all of a sudden no one was in the room, just this magic 5 minutes. Someone's gone for lunch, someone's gone to the washroom, you know, and you just kind of had this moment when I thought knows my time. And so, yeah, I was able to lay my hand on her and sing this blessing. And for me, that was truly one of the most sacred moments in my life, one of my most cherished moments. When I tell this story, I always stress that it was not a TV moment, because if it was a TV death, she would have woken up and looked at me or squeezed my hand. Right? You'd see it on TV. Writer There would have been a response and I want to be clear, there was absolutely no response. She stayed asleep. We were past the point where she was coherent, and I don't know if she heard me. I don't know if it meant anything. But I still remember sitting in that room and feeling like death was sitting on my shoulders, like you could feel it coming right. And that we were just. Wrestling with it like it was. It was this battle, and we were carrying the weight of it. And somehow in singing this blessing, it was like the light came into the room, right? It was like this, this one win. This isn't the end of the story. And so that was a gift to me. And that was my goodbye. And again, I didn't get the response to you. So my, you know, my big moments with her or her going, we could have gone to Florida and said saw Crocodile Dundee part now. Exactly right. And but you know that more that statement actually has so many layers because what she was naming is exactly what we love to shop together. We love to have fun together. And when she said we could have gone to Florida, I knew everything that that statement meant. Right? It meant we'd go on vacations. It meant we'd sit on the beach and we would go and have a laugh. We'd eat too much and we'd go to all the outlets. There were so many things in that story that I knew what it meant, and so it was actually really meaningful. It wasn't her saying, you know, here's all the reasons I love you and here's the things that matter. And sometimes we do that and you might have time and some people. But again, she had two children. And I mean, her priorities for those things were her kids. And so much of our job was to help facilitate those moments with her children in that season. Right. And learning not to be greedy in that season was hard for sure, but especially with so many, you know, family members and friends and people coming in and out of the room. And it was interesting because of one of Roxanne's closest friends, just finished the book and she wrote me and she said, Did I ever tell you about what happened a couple of days before she died? And she told me about having a similar moment. Only her moment was different, maybe a day or two before. And she said everyone had laughed. And it was just me and Roxanne set up and said, Can I have a cup of tea? And she said, In the two of us sat there and we had like a conversation, and I think it was her last coherent conversation And I said, I love that you had that moment. I mean, a little bit of she was jealous, you know? Sure, not a bad way at all. But we get the glimpses where we get the right. And so I'd never heard that story before, so need to get to hear it. But I was happy she had that, too. She loved her too. Right. But again, when someone's dying, you're trying so much to somehow everyone wants a piece of them. Right? And it starts to feel like there's not enough to go around. That's so normal, too. And when you've had a sudden death, which I know is your story, you know, it can look similar, right? Like the people that want to be seen, they want their grief seen. They want to share their story. They want to speak at the funeral or they want to. There's those ways that we're trying to find our place in the grieving and in the dying, definitely, if that makes sense, in your side as well, and all the different ways you see that, because definitely the ending was different obviously, and it was more sudden and there was a lot more of that shock. I live in Florida, speaking of Florida. So like, you know, it was sort of like a hurricane, you know, like that, you know, crazy or maybe a tornado where that's like that sudden impact. And then you just look around and you're just in disbelief. So there was a lot of that going on. There's a lot of not knowing what to do in that space, that envelope, probably for a few weeks after that. But I want to go back to what you said about how you knew what that comment meant, because it was her way of maybe communicating. I just want to be with you as your sister. Like I, Florida's just kind of a symbol for that space. Miles really was I think her thought in the majority of the way that so beautiful and so painful at the same time. And that image of what you said, you know, you felt the heaviness of death in the room, the presence of death in the room, and then your song to her, the opportunity to sing, Lighten Everything Up and the best way that it could. And such a poor memory and your goodbye, really. That was the goodbye and goodbye in it. And a surrender, for lack of a better term. Right? Right. Here it is. Right. I release you. I bless you as you go in this next part of your journey. And everyone has to find different ways and time and space. They do that. But I'm thankful I had that moment and it felt like a gift. But it was a gift. And I'm glad. And the surrender part. I do wanted to highlight that because it's such a huge part of the grieving process, surrendering over and over and over again, even after our person's passing or death. I know that I still struggle with which words to choose sometimes, but after a person is passing, in one case, somebody said, you have to hang on to hope, even though you had already accepted the inevitable the last while. That story. Yeah. Anchorman two When I tell versions of this story, people go, Yeah, that happened to me too. It's actually the very introduction to my books. If you want to get a sense of what the book's about, this is a good explanation. What? I have a really good memory. It's it's a it's a joke among my friends that if I don't remember it, it didn't happen. I'm not good at memorizing details, but I can be like, we were here and you were wearing this and you ordered this for lunch. And they were like, That's creepy. And I do not remember who said this to me, which I think is a gift of from God, that I just blanked it out, right? Because I would probably feel bad talking about them if I remembered. So again, if it's you, it's okay. But my sister was dying and it was that season where I'd just been to our home. You know, you're right in the midst of it. And I lived a few provinces. I'm in Canada, so I like, you know, I lived in other problems for like a different state. And so I was back home where people who, you know, they were in the midst of it in the way that I was, but they knew what I was going through. And literally I had just gotten back from seeing her, you know, we were planning for her, moved to hospice. I had literally had a conversation with her going through her closet to pick out what she'd wear to her funeral. Like, you can't you can't explain the trauma you're even carrying in that moment, right? Of the things you're processing like that. I just have that conversation. I was making her funeral slideshow. This is where we are. Yes. Someone says to me, how is your sister? So lovely to ask. I started by since by saying, well, you know, well, she's dying. And I had another statement go to about like I was probably going to say, you know, like we're we're hanging in or whatever, you know. And I was trying to say, like, this is she's crossed over to that phase. Sometimes in hospice work, they'll say actively dying. And it and what they mean is that, you know, we're not doing treatments anymore. This is the step route. And this person was just aghast and they, you know, put their hand, do the math. Oh, don't say that. You know, I got very cold because I was very irritable about that. And I sort of went, what do you want me to say? You know, it was so invalidating, it was so bizarre. And they said, well, but you have to have hope. And this is such a common thing that we do and we do this in so many different versions. You know, someone says, Oh, while my loved one stopped doing treatment. So they're giving up. They're going to giving up their they're surrendering their accepting what's next in their life. And it's actually a beautiful and brave thing to do, a profoundly brave thing to do. And then we put this, like, giving up language on them as if it would hasten their death or what have you or to say they're dying meant I didn't have faith. And so there's like there can still be, you know, there is that like you're there can still be miracle. There can still be this. And it just wasn't where I was. I was trying to be present in this place where my sister was dying. And I was looking for how we were going to get through that season, where I was going to find God and faith and hope in this incredible thing that I never thought I'd have to do at 35 years old. Watch my sister slowly die with them. The essence of the actual experience that. Yeah, yeah. Without trying to change it. Yeah, exactly. And so even just a couple of weeks ago, I was at a book signing event and this woman said to me, you know, Liam and my husband died about 15 years ago. It had been and he had died young as well in his early forties of cancer. And she said, the number of my friends that said to me. Don't be sad. He wouldn't want you to be sad. And she said no one could just give me space. And I said, Oh, I'm so sorry. And, you know, she was tearful 15 years later. Because she still needed room to be sad. She'd lost her husband so young and so unfairly. And so we do these things thinking it will help. I know that person thought it would help, right? Oh, no, no. She's not dying. And it was shocking for them, I guess, to hear me say it. And to be clear, I'm very comfortable with death language, which shocks people differently because I do funerals all the time. And I had to remind myself sometimes that people don't always use these words in language, but she just she was trying to make me feel better. Right. And it didn't. That's so much of what I encourage people to remember in the book. Like Graeber's are not asking you. To help fix their grief, which we think we have to do. We're like we think if we're helping and griever, they're grieving and they're sad. So let's make them not sad or they're grieving and they miss the person. So let's explain why the person's in a better place or why they wouldn't want you to be sad. And it doesn't mean any of those things aren't true. Although, to be clear, I think Roxann would have wanted us to be sad. I think she would have absolutely, I think not felt. But if we all got up and just forgot her in a week or two, I don't think she would like that either, I assure you. Oh, did she want us to carry sadness our whole life? Well, of course not. But we also make a lot of assumptions about what we do on behalf of these people might not even be true. And really, in those moments, what our grieving loved ones need is just space for all those big, hard things that, of course, you're sad. Wow. Yeah, this is really sad. And there's so many ways we can make space for that, but we haven't been taught to do it. And so sometimes we basically said, Well, what should I say? Instead I said, When you're really stuck, you can always say, I honestly don't know what to say. I'm so sad with you. I don't know what to say. But I love you. I don't know what to say. I'm here or I'm sorry if I say something dumb, but I just really care. Again, sometimes you have to be willing to face your own discomfort. And often what we're saying to Graeber's is about making ourselves comfortable. And not that it's about us feeling like we had something to say or we said the right thing it has. We're stuck. So I think we can practice thinking that through. We'll never get it. All right. You know, we're going to we're going to stick our foot in it sometimes. And I've done it, too. But I think when we start by saying my goal. Isn't to make them feel better, quote unquote better. Right now, we make some good first steps. It is more helpful to hear I don't know what to say, but I love you and leave it there. That is more powerful than oh, my gosh, don't say that. Don't be positive in this and that, because there's a place for positivity. And in this context, more often than not, it is not the place. Right. So in lost by the time a griever accepts, for example, in this case, by the time you say she is actively dying, she is dying. There has been so much inner acceptance and understanding and just digesting and processing of the magnitude of this experience. By the time a grievous says those words, that invalidating them could be one of the most painful experiences on the receiving end. Right. Because you're saying all of this that I've had to go through an enduring acceptance process. No, no, no. We don't want to hear that. It's it's too uncomfortable. You've got it wrong. You're mixing it up. That's not that's not it. You know, you have to be more positive. You have to pray harder. You have to do this. It's almost like we're at fault for not doing enough. And the ashes that so far from the truth. Yes. And I think we do that to dying people to when we kind of really boxed them into you have to think positive and you have to not give up. And we almost make it sound like they can just will themselves into getting better. And there can be so much pressure on a sick or dying person, and that can be unfair, too. And so I think in all these cases, it's about following the lead of where the person is. If I if that woman had said, how's your sister doing? And I had said, well, the doctor said, she's dying, but we're praying for a miracle. Follow my lead. Right, right, right. That's right. Well, then I'll pray for that miracle with you. Right. That's the thing. Like don't correct a griever, I guess is is the safe bet because if that's and that's where my mom was. My mom, right up until the day my sister died, was like, let's keep having faith. A miracle can still happen. And all this. And I was so often eager to be like, give her a more realistic point of view. Be like, Mom, do you really understand what's happening? And I had to step back and be like, you know, I can't put my need for realism on my mother like this. We are dealing with this differently. And so that it's a journey for all of us. I think that's the key. You know, if they're saying this is where I am. If they haven't invited you in, if you don't have a therapy role or a deeply close relationship with it, if you feel that something needs to be corrected. Your job is just to be with them where they are in that space, in that moment. And even if what they're saying is bonkers. You know, I love that you just brought up that point about your mother because it highlights how we always say, oh, everybody grieves differently, but what exactly that looks like. This is a beautiful example of that. You were more comfortable, it's settled better with you to be more realistic. And for your mother, it was like, I need a miracle. I need to know that we did everything we could to ask for a miracle. Both of them are right. Like when my sister was dying because she had melanoma the last couple of days of her. Well, the last few weeks of her life. And I'm sorry, this photograph, it may be trigger warning for some people. She was covered in tumors and they were very ugly and they were painful. So she had like what look like boils over her body in on her face. And one day my mother said, which is still so sad, she goes, But when she dies because, you know, there's all this sometimes she's miracle some. She goes, they're all going to disappear. Right. It like it was horrible. And we all just kind of look at each other like they're going to, like, sink back into her body, right? Like, no, we won't have to bury her like this. Those are awful moments now. And why do you even say and. I remember saying, no, I don't think Selma. Maybe I should have just said, yeah, maybe, you know. Right. You just don't like whatever she needed in that moment was so hard to even know what. But what a bizarre statement. Like, my mother is very smart. I bet if I asked you, she wouldn't even remember asking that question now. It was such an irrational. Logical question. And I just remember there was kind of silence with the four or five of us looking at each other like. The lottery cannot state this question. But for her, the idea, I guess, of burying her daughter with this body that looked like her daughter was, of course, so awful and so were so many those. You're going to hear griever say profoundly weird things and you're going to walk away, especially after a traumatic death or really near a death. Right. And again, you just don't need to do a lot of correcting. You know, if that had been a different season, I might have. Like, what's the matter with you? Like. What a weird question. Right. And I think I said no, but I remember thinking, oh, this needs to be really gentle, you know? Yeah. It's just not a time where there's a lot that's rational. So you just. Yeah, you have to kind of be with the person where they are in that moment. Definitely the mind tries to grasp at anything it can to understand what's happening and to accept it. And that moment when you realize it's 100% out of your control, there is nothing you could do. This is it. That moment, you know, your mind is just grasping at whatever the brain likes. Predictability, the brain feel safe understanding, like if this then that right and right. We don't have that grief, you know, to take that off the table completely. When we don't have that, the mind is looking for answers to create a sense of safety again. And for example, my equivalent of that was there was a full moon. And I remember driving and all I saw was this full moon. And I said, Oh my gosh, it's the full moon fault. It's because, you know, it makes you create the and something happened that made perfect sense to my mind that. So I understand because it's the mind's desperate attempt at making sense of the senseless of this very profound experience. But I want to highlight your book. It is such a gift. The way that it's written, the way that you did the chapters was a play on Words on Grieving Room. So what exactly do you mean by room? And there's different chapters that all have the word room in them. And what that means in the context of grief, that, for example, room for the uncertainty in room for the end, room for agrees to come, valley of death, imperfect goodbyes, rituals, grief, bubble, etc.. So there's various chapters. I absolutely love this because it really encompasses the fullness of the experience, and it's not just the loss of the person. That is one aspect of it. There's the pre during and post experience and I always say that grief thrusts you in the realm of and I love, love, love that your second chapter has room for that. And that was some years because while it is, I've seen you say that I always like your posts when you make comments like Yes and, and I'm a mess and I'm hopeful. And even in that moment where the woman says she's dying. Well, I was sad and I had hope right. When she said, we can't have hope. While I can say she's dying and I can have and yes, both, I can be relieved that she's not in pain anymore and wish for her back like it's it's both can be true. The book is excellent both for Grievous and also for the person trying to understand grief. It is painful. Death is painful. Loss is painful. That's okay. This is a step forward in becoming comfortable with you. Uncomfortable. There it is. And will also make it in the show notes. It is available on Amazon in Indigo, I believe. Target in some areas. I want to touch on the room for your loved one and room two. Never get over it. Give us. We only have a few minutes, so just maybe a little bit of a touch point on both of those. So room for your loved one and room two, never get over it. I love those chapters. So as you said about the book does is it uses my sister's death, so to speak. Maybe use isn't an ideal word, but it uses that narrative as an explanation of of of a grief journey. And each chapter is a different phase on that journey for me and a type of room that I realized I needed as I grieved. You know, grieving room includes a lot of things. And so most chapters come near the end and they talk about making room for those two realities. One is room for your loved one. And so part of our journey of grieving is learning where our loved one fits in our lives because they remain part of our lives. They are so deeply entwined with who we are and who we've become. And as I said, I'm not talking about, you know, a ghost who surround her or something like that. I'm talking about the reality that they remain part of your life because they're such a big part of who you are, even if they were part of your life of really short time, even if you lost a newborn or even a miscarriage, there's a way that they were part of your life and shaped you. That will never change. And so we have to learn and allow ourselves to take room for our loved one. And early grief models like the Freudian grief models, were all about forgetting and moving on. And that permeated our culture for a long time. Don't think about it. Don't put up the pictures. Don't whenever. So I encourage people in that chapter to think about what room for the loved one looks like for them. And it's different for everybody, which I think is so important to say. I don't actually have a lot of pictures up. I tend to look at pictures when I want to look at the pictures. You know, for a long time my parents had what I can only describe as a shrine. You know, there was several pictures, really beautiful pictures all together. They loved looking at that. Some people will wear a piece of jewelry. A tattoo is such a common thing that people do now. But it's not just about that. It's also about learning that it's okay for them to continue to be part of your life today. And what I mean by that is to keep talking about them, even if it makes people uncomfortable to keep naming who they are to say their name. One of the things that I absolutely adored, if a meaning is when you feel it, when you're on your podcast, is a form you fill out and you're going to know what I'm going to say thing. And at the end it says, What's the name of her brother? And I thought, This is a griever. Because this is someone who understands, you know, I mean, do you actually care about grief? And I thought that was such a beautiful question because that's what we need to do. We need to realize they're still part of our lives. And it takes us a while when we're grieving to realize, okay, yeah, I might say their name that people get a bit awkward. I might tell a story about them in the room, sort of doesn't know what they do. And that's okay because I'm making room for my loved one and so it's learning to keep them in your life. Now when I talk about room to never get over it, which sounds like such a weird chapter again, is at some point I think almost every griever realizes I'm not going to be the same person at the end of this. And we spend the early days of our grief. Waiting and hoping and asking and sometimes even turning down. I know that I asked everyone, so when will it be better? And that might sound really silly. That's my personality my husband likes to talk about when I was in labor and every nurse that came in, I said, So how much longer? And he'd be like, Yeah, you have to let you and I handle not having an agenda. It's not right. And so we agreed if I wanted one too, I wanted like, so what do we talk in six months? Like a year? When's the moment? I'm going to wake up and I'm going to feel like the old Leon. I'm never going to feel like the old Leon. Just like any time in life we change as our life goes on. And that's not a bad thing because we become new versions of ourselves and they can be beautiful versions of ourselves. And so when I say for them to never get over it, I don't mean that we stay in the depths of early grief forever, that we just say, I'm digging a hole and I'm stay in there, but that we recognize that we are forever shaped by loss, that we carry scars, that it's made us a different person and that the end, that we will always miss them and we will always want to find those ways to remember them, to have them in our lives and to carry on their legacy. And so that's what I meant by those chapters. So powerful. So, so powerful. Please, if you're grieving, do yourself a favor. Absorb all of these lessons and understanding of your own journey through somebody else's journey. I think that's the power in sharing these stories. I know that you started this in 2018, this book in 2018. So it has been a journey in and of itself to write the book. I heard you also mentioned and I understand the statement, it's going to sound a little bit shocking, but I get it. You said I feel like I could die now. Right. Because it's that sense, the completion, that that sense of I hope it's into the world and it lives on forever in a way, you know, your sister will get to live on forever, in a way through your book. So will your story. So will be lesson. And they will help so, so many people. So thank you for doing the work and thank you for taking the time to put this out in the world for all of us to benefit from as well. Thank you. And I love the work you're doing. Thank you for what you're doing. And I know not everyone will feel they can write a book or host a podcast. But I pray that you all find your own ways to carry on that legacy, even if it's just that one nice thing you do for someone or the memories you hold on to or the picture you look at, that you'll realize that we all have those ways that we let them continue to have an impact and continue to be important to us. And I think I think that there's many ways that can look, and I hope people know that, too. Definitely bears the example that you discussed about an exercise with Clay that I thought was very beautiful. I do want to make sure that we include this in this episode. It's a very powerful exercise and visual. Tell us about the continuing bonds and how they stay in our lives through this Play-Doh. Yeah. So in the book in the at the end of the book, I was really glad my publisher asked, Would you like to do something like this? I said, yes. There's actually a series of guided exercises. And so they're either designed that you can do them on your own or with a partner, easily small group, or if you wanted to lead a group support group. The theory is that for each chapter there's three or four discussion questions and there's a little activity you could do. And my visioning was that a group could maybe read two chapters a week and then they'd have two things to do. And so one of the activities to talk about with this, you know, room for your loved one, I think that was the chapter I connected it to come again. There's lots of wonderful grief theories out there. What we mean is psychological structures that we use to help understand grief, not theories, as they're ideas, but ways to understand grief. And I really love the continuing bonds theory of grief. And if anyone's a continuing bonds expert, they're like, Yeah, obviously, because I keep saying that they stay with you. They're part of you, and that's one of their big tenets. And so from this one of the activities that came out of that that I use in this book is exactly this, that you you take some plate out, some clay either works, toothpaste works for all that matter, but the little lessons I recommend, Play-Doh or clay to true colors. Right? And then you wash them all together. And then you say, now try to separate them. And you can't. You'll never separate them. They'll become a new color and they'll become a new thing because the two are so intertwined. And and that's so true of us and our siblings who we've lost. Right? They're such a part of us. And so often we think that somehow the goal is is to get get that out of us or something. But it's not something new has been created by those two things. And so I'm glad you like that exercise, too, because I think it's beautiful as well. You know, the beautiful exercise in analogy. And yes, that gets to the essence of what this new reality is. We don't have to define it perfectly, but it is this new thing that maybe we never expected. But here we are and it's still beautiful in its own way. I would be remiss to end without asking about the role that faith plays in Greece with your personal experience, professional experience. Very briefly, I know that following your sister's death, you also experience other very significant losses in life changes. One of them being, I believe it was your nephew, who, if you could share that story and how it impacted your faith at that time and where you are now with it. Yes. So, I mean, I'm a Christian pastor, so that would be my my faith background. And there's an idea that, you know, when you're a person of faith and we all you know, faith can look like different things for different people, that there's a way you're supposed to understand and process things. Certainly from a Christian perspective, our belief is that my sister would continue to live with God and that, you know, we believe in heaven and this idea of an eternity. And so that brought me great comfort. But yet there's also such a sense of struggle when something like this happens. And I have a chapter called Room to Reconsider. And like you find yourself asking hard questions. And some people of faith, many faiths find that their questions don't find a place. Right. It's not okay to say why did this happen or why do bad things happen to good people? We prayed and our prayers were answered, and that's things a lot of people wrestle with after a loss and going into a loss. And then as that year went on, it felt like we were honestly being sort of slapped in the face because shortly after my sister died, she died in May. And then in August, my family faced this other real catastrophe when my dad and my two nephews, who were 16 and 14 at the time, were in an absolutely catastrophic boating accident. They were all very severely injured. And my two nephews who actually live in British Columbia, another part of Kennedy's well, were home visiting and they were both in ICU. My dad broke his back. So we had these three very, very. I'm six. Not the right word. They they were so injured. They were so serious. At the same time, you know, we were just we should we needed roller skates to be going to the the different. I remember I like literally lost like £7 walking from hospital rooms, like because we were just moving through it. But my eldest nephew was actually like in a coma, like he had a blood clot in his brain. They needed to remove it. And they he was in this common we had these few days where we didn't know if we would he would wake up and we were told almost certainly if he woke up, the brain damage would be very, very severe. Well, Art, we are like just a few months out from my sister dying and now here we are. We've had this absolutely horrific accident. My younger nephew's on full bed rest. He's not allowed to even turn his head. He has a severe kidney injury. My other nephew's in this coma. Maybe he'll wake up. Maybe he won't. My dad's got a broken back, and he's, you know, he's 17. It's just terrible. And so. I was just. Oh. Frustrated. And so at the end of my rope, with all the faith that I could muster on my own, you know, I and I remember just saying to God, like. I. I can't believe this. And I said the line that kept coming from I was like, Are you kidding me? Like, are you joking me right now? And this was these were most of the conversations I was having with God that we when I would talk about my sister dying, I would talk about feeling God's profound presence, which I did like in those moments when she was dying. I was so sad. I didn't understand what God was doing, but I felt God was somehow in it. And this I was like, Mm, no, no, this is just ridiculous. This is this is unreasonable. This is one too many. And it's funny what can just kind of put us over the edge. But yet, even then, as that story evolved and my nephew did wake up and he did recover and it was beautiful and amazing. You know, I talk about we discovered that we had somehow healed through that experience as a family, that we'd all had to reconvene in Newfoundland again at through this without my sister. And realize we could do this. And I remember the day before I flew back home after, you know, Nick was. Just able to walk around. And Matthew was still in. They were still both in hospital, but, you know, they were on the road. And I went to my sister's grave and to talk Sanskrit. And I said, so we're looking. I was like, You'd be so proud of us. You would be so proud of what we did these last two weeks. And I didn't think we could have done it without you because she was the oldest. So she, you know, then angled everybody. And I knew she would have been. And it was this reminder to me. We are still so deep in grief and I don't know how my other sister got through it. I mean, I was going through this as an aunt, but she was literally grieving her sister and her two sons at death's door. And she said the same thing. She said, we're going to get through this like our family's going to be okay. Well, and so. A lot of people had faith for us in that time when we didn't have enough. I shouldn't say we didn't when I didn't have enough, but others others were carrying us for sure. And I can say as a person of prayer, there was never a day that went by that we wouldn't get an email. And church is as far as Florida, literally. They'd say, We heard about your family and we gathered to pray for you today, and we were just blown away by the prayers. We also knew that all those same churches, many of them had prayed for Roxanne, too. So I still don't know why yet. I still believe something miraculous happened, and that's how my faith works in my life. So I hope that answers your question. But for anyone who's listening and your faith feels kind of complicated in the midst of all of these things. It's so normal and it makes so much sense. Think you have that be complicated and for some days for it to be such a comfort and some days to have a lot of big questions, too. And I think God's big enough for all that. Definitely the. Are you kidding me? Chapter of grief is very real. And it's okay to experience it. I'm glad that your family pulled through. I think ultimately that feeling of we're going to be okay is is so refreshing. And I'm glad that you received that as a family. That's very, um. What we're not yet. Okay, so not okay, but we're like, you know what? We can still be a whole family after this. And I think I doubt it. I think I was like, we're all going to fall apart after, you know, the elder sister dies too young. And I think that's what we mean by okay. Right. I meant that we were still going to be a family. Yeah, okay. Looks a little bit different than what we may have in common, but it's. You'll make it. So thank you for sharing that. We are at the end. Liam, thank you for your time to one. I'll open the floor up for you. This anything that maybe we didn't cover, where can people get a hold of you? And the final closing question would be, what would Lianne today say to Liam after your sister died? Oh, my goodness. What a great question. We already mentioned the book is available at most booksellers online and in person. You can also follow me at Grieving Room on Instagram. And I want to say I keep joking that I'm terrible marketer in this regard. I realize a book when you're newly grieving is can be too big and too much and in fact like this is not the book for like the week after someone's died, you'll need a little time and a little bit of processing space. My Instagram pages, I think you use the term maybe I did snackable a little more. It's smaller pieces and so maybe you're not ready for a book. You can follow me there at Grieving Room. As of the website Liam freeze incur the. Thing that I would say to that, I don't know. I know what I want to say. And what I would want to say to her is. Life is going to be beautiful again and you're going to get through this. It's going to be really hard for a really long time. And you're in for a ride. You have no idea, but know that you're you're going to survive it. And you can't imagine that today. But you will. But the reason I kind of hesitate to answer it is that she wouldn't have believed it. So I guess more than even what I wish I could have said is I wish I wish I could have find some way to help her believe it. But I think part of the journey of grief is discovering. But you can't believe it again. Part of the road is having those nights where you say. It's never going to be okay. And in fact, one of the only ways we get to somehow being somewhat okay again is by going through those names. And so it's such a complicated question, right? But I can say that I never would have guessed life would look like it does now, and I never would have guessed the peace that I could feel in my life without her here or how much she would. You know what? I'm kind of back to one thing I would say to her, God, I think would be okay to say is you won't forget her. And that, you know, I'd love to let her know be okay. She would have believed it, but I was so afraid I'd forget. I was so afraid I'd forget all the memories. Forget her voice, forget her laugh. And I. I think I would have wanted to assure her. You are not going to forget. She's going to stay such a big part of your life. And I think that would have been the biggest thing I might have needed to know, because I wouldn't have believed I was going to be okay. Even with a future version of myself telling me I would have been like, That is nonsense, but I would have loved to have known, you're not going to forget. This grieving sisters heart. Thanks you for that because that is a huge fear of mine has to that to forget. So thank you for saying that. Thank you for your work. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for putting out the words and love and community and compassion and and road map. In a way, it's a road map for so many of us and such loving energy towards the heart of a griever and towards this very complex experience. So thank you, Liane, for your time, for being here, for being you, for sharing your story. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. That's it for today's episode. Be sure to subscribe to the Grief and Light podcast. I'd also love to connect with you and hear your thoughts and your stories. Feel free to share them with me at my Instagram page at Grief and Light. Or you can also visit Grief and Light dot com for more information and updates. Thank you so much for being here, for being you. And always remember, you are not alone.