Spiritual Chiropractors. With Tony McAleer

Tony McAleer is one of the most helpful, honest, and respected formers to be public. 

After joining the movement in the 80s, Tony spent time in several different organizations until he realized that all of his hate was stemming from one thing- himself. He left and raised his two children and then started the difficult work of figuring out who he is on his own terms, and who he wanted to be.

Tony and Chuck (and occasionally Sam) dive into what it means to want love from someone incapable of giving it, turning your back on yourself and your peers, what it means to leave and how that impacts everyone around you.

Spent too much time f*cking around and don't want to know what it might mean to find out? We're around... www.thedailyformer.com

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Transcript

Samantha 0:34

um, we're trying to talk to people about what are things that you might come across when you're leaving, what is it like after you left, just what is being a former about and like, why is it not nearly as bad as the movement wants you to believe? But yeah, I think Chuck is gonna kind of leave the conversation and I am just gonna button in, um, on occasion when I'm feeling nosy or chatty. Um, yeah. All right. Well, Tony, do you wanna intro yourself a little bit? Give us an idea of kind of when you were in the movement, how long you've been out, um, what you do now, so that we can kind of get to know you a little bit.

Tony 1:10

Sure. My name's Tony MacAleer. I first became a skinhead, probably back in 82, 83. Was involved in a number of organizations from area nations wide area resistance, heritage front et cetera, et cetera, UND and David Irving, and that whole world of Holocaust denial. I left in 1998. I didn't I didn't do anything after I left other than leave until I met a coach, mentor, counselor. Um, in 2004, 2005, that started the journey of healing. First it was healing myself. We can't we can't help or heal others until we've healed our own stuff. Um, once I'd done that process, the, the next evolution for me was to be a co-founder of Life After Hate in 20 10, 20 11. Hell yeah. And so going back to helping people who are where I once was with with five other people all in similar circumstances because there was no program or assistance for anyone leaving the movement back then. And I was there until the end of 2019. Where I'm really focusing on the next evolution of my journey is the first step was healing myself. The second was going back and helping others. Who were I once was get out and, and get help. And this next phase of my journey is actually going back to the communities that I've harmed in atonement, reconciliation and facilitating where I can healing in those, those areas. And I wrote a book called the Cure for Hate, A former white Supremacist Journey from Violent Extremism to Radical Compassion. Um, and I've got a film coming up called The Cure for Hate Bearing Witness to Auschwitz, which is about my journey to Auschwitz in 2018 and about what it means to bear witness. And that film is again along the lines of my atonement, my reconciliation to the people that I'd harmed the most during my activity. And that was the Jewish people.

Samantha 3:13

How old were you and what were the circumstances of you joining? Like were you kind of raised in a family that believed in these things or were you in, like influenced by, by someone else?

Tony 3:25

It's funny, a lot of, a lot of what I did was very much influenced by my father, but not in the way that you might assume. My father was bomb during by the Germans during World War ii, so he hated Nazis. He hated what I was into. Um, but an interesting way to be angry at your father is to put a, a poster on your bedroom wall of the guy who sent the bombs, right? Yeah. So, I, I always say this to, to people. Look at your behaviors and, and your beliefs and ask yourself, is it the same as one of your parents? Is it the opposite of one of your parents or is it actually yours? So I was operating in many ways in polarity to, to where my dad was. And I was really angry at my dad. I grew up in middle class affluent family, all the privilege you could think of, went to private schools and all of that. And when I was 10, I walked in on my dad with another woman. And that sort of really rocked my world, um, build anger, shame, guilt, like it was somehow my fault and, and felt complete betrayal by all the authority figures in my life. And I went from being an A and a B student to a C at E student. And by grade six, the next year, if I didn't get A's and B's at the, at the Catholic school I went to with my dad's and, and my mom's permission and encouragement I was hit on the rear end with a yardstick over and over and over again. And I'd just be clear, I don't ever blame anything on my childhood. Everything I did, I chose to do. Um, but I share things for my childhoods here. I understand the lens through which those, I made those choices. And it was in that office that I was really first introduced to shame and powerlessness. And that set me up to choose false roots, to achieve what I thought was power and to choose false ideologies to, what's the opposite of shame? Pride. Right. And so it shows a false narrative to compensate for that shame. Yeah. To compensate for that powerlessness. So

Chuck 5:37

Something that, that is pretty common, um, when we're in is that, very linear, black and white thinking forgiveness isn't really. You, you don't forgive people for stuff. Grudges are held and, and that war is constant. Um, one of the things you talk about a lot in the book is, is finding forgiveness. And that was, a big part of my experience getting out and, and learning to change. The way I looked at the world too, was learning forgiveness and, and really that had to start with forgiveness for myself. Right. And, reading, reading your book, I, it's the same for you. I see that. But then finding forgiveness for, those who harmed us is also a big piece of it. And something that, one of the things that I read in the book that really kind of stood out to me a little bit was having to do with your dad. And since you were talking about him, I just wanted to read it real quick and it says, I went from believing he didn't love me because I am unlovable to understanding. He didn't show he loved me because he didn't know how. That was really powerful to me cuz it's not, It's not focused, it's not, his focus wasn't on you in that sense. He was just living his reality, the only way he knew how to. But we absorb that stuff, particularly when we're very young as a personalized event. We take it all to mean that it's us. That is the problem. And like trying to get past that stuff is so hard and it leads so many of us to, dark places in different ways than maybe we've found. But, not everybody who experiences trauma becomes a white supremacist. Um, thank God. Right. Um, but you know, it is

Tony 7:17

one way that we get here. Yeah. There's a, there's another line that's probably quite, quite close to that line in the, in the book. And, um, so much of the suffering that we experience in life comes from not receiving something from someone who's incapable of giving it in the first place. Yeah, yeah. Sort of how I feel that, think about like how how, how crazy is that? When we personalize and, and take it on and think it's directed at us, um, it deepens the wound. Yeah. Yeah. And then my dad was just living out his wounds. I mean, he, right, like most psychiatrists do, they never deal with, with our own stuff. Right. The, we've all heard the one about the cobbler's kid who goes to school with holes in their shoes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What do you think the psychiatrist's kid goes to school with? Yeah.

Chuck 8:12

So Tony, can you talk a little bit about, um, the difference between. Healthy shame and toxic shame. Sure. I know you go into it a lot in the book, but

Tony 8:21

I thought it was important because I think, if we, if we, if we're touching on trauma here, what is it that trauma leaves behind? What is it? What is, what is, what gets left behind from trauma? And, and I'd say, um, toxic shame and healthy shame is, I did bad, I did wrong. Toxic shame is I am bad, I am wrong. And when we're young, particularly before the age of seven, as as human beings, we don't have a rational brain. It's not developed yet. Somebody tells you you are stupid or, abandons you, or neglects you, you pick up the belief that you're not good enough, you're not lovable, you're not smart enough, you're not pretty enough. You're less than you're, you're powerless, you're weak. What? Whatever negative. A thing we pick up and it sits at right, right at the core of our subconscious identity belief system. We hold about our ourselves when we go out in the world, um, and spend an inordinate amount of time trying to convince the world is not true or hiding our shame from the world. Um, the other thing we do with shame is it's shame is the dirty secret. We hide from ourselves, right? John Bradshaw, who wrote the book, healing the Shame That Binds You. It's a great book if you want to understand toxic shame. He was an addictions guy and he said, toxic shame is at the root of all addiction. Um, that's when we internalized the shame, when we sort of numb, distract ourselves from that, that feeling. The other thing we do is be projected onto other people. Um, Dr. James Gilligan, who wrote the book Violence Reflections on a National Epidemic, he was a forensic psychiatrist, I think in. One of the California federal penitentiaries said that he wasn't aware of a serious act of violence in, in the 20 years he was in prison, that that wasn't rooted in shame and humiliation. And he has a great quote from that book, and it's all violence is an attempt to transform shame into self-esteem. Hmm. Wow.

Chuck 10:28

Yeah. Wow. That's so you have a true you have a, another quote from your book that, that is right along those lines. And so yeah, I just, um, that, that hits me hard, like I spent a lot of time trying to figure out, it took me a long time to figure out that the reason I hated other people. Was, I was projecting self-hatred out onto the world. Right. And I, I just, this hit me cuz it's, you're basically saying the same thing. Um, but I truly believe that the extent to which we dehumanize others is a mirror of how disconnected and dehumanized we are

Tony 11:06

inside. Um, yeah.

Chuck 11:09

And so that, like that realization for me when I was going through my process of the fact that it wasn't, black folks or Jews or Mexicans or Asians that I hated, it was myself that I hated. That was pretty ground shaking. Um, I think you're talking about a lot of the same stuff. And so how does that tie to the toxic shame and and what are the, what are the answers to

Tony 11:38

that, do you think? Well, I think, well the answer is, is to how do we deal with that? And, and, how do you, what is the, the, the antidote to toxic shame, right? And, and if we look at, if toxic shame is the, the self alienation, the dehumanization of the self, which is ultimately what it is, how do we then the answer is how do we rehumanize the person, right? And then from that perspective, I can tell you what isn't the answer is heaping more shame on the person, right? Yeah. If shame is at the root of the problem, more shame can't possibly be the answer, right? So how do we rehumanize people and we rehumanize people through compassion. And when we're compassionate with someone, it's like we hold a mirror up to them and allow them to see their humanity reflected back at them when they can't see it on their own. Right. And, and, compassion is a very tricky subject because it's often perceived as soft. It's often perceived as as weak, and, and, and it's understandable. We'll see where that that comes from. But when we marry compassion with healthy boundaries and consequences when it's married with healthy accountability, um, it truly is a very powerful piece. But it has to have that, that healthy boundaries and consequences attached to it. Otherwise it can just very easily be, be abused and be taken advantage of and, and such.

Samantha 13:08

I know that our, our journeys and our, our evolution of self is kind of never ending, but, um, Tony, you had talked about leaving in 1998 and kind of not really doing much about anything until 2004, 2006. Um, what was it in that beginning and how long did it kind of take you to reach the understanding of compassion verse, and, and the healthy kind of shame and guilt? And same for you, Chuck, like, what, what did it look like when you first left, um, versus like now and kind of how, like when did you start unpacking the reality of

Tony 13:41

these things? So when I left, um, I'd been involved in, with my phone line, two trips to the Supreme Court and a whole bunch of high profile stuff. And, and anyone who's been in that movement for any times knows how toxic that space is. And it takes an incredible amount of energy to be that angry and negative all the time. And, and you can't be in that place and be in flow. Everything is a struggle. Everything feels like it. It's swimming, um, upstream,

Chuck 14:16

including just having so-called friends,

Tony 14:18

like all the drama, right? The drama. Yes.

Chuck 14:21

All the drama. Backstabbing to,

Tony 14:24

yeah, all of that. All of that stuff. Um, but you know, there, by the time I was becoming disillusioned, I had, two children 15 months apart. I'd separated from the mother when they were two and four, and by 1998 they were four and six. And I, I became a full-time single dad, um, then, and it really had a stark choice to make. Um, I needed my mom's help to raise the children. A guy I could barely take care of my own life, nevermind, had two youngsters. And, she's the one who actually taught me about healthy boundaries and consequences cuz her love for me was unconditional. Her relationship with me was very conditional. And if I wanted her help, I couldn't be involved in the same social circles. I couldn't be on TV doing stuff. I couldn't be doing all of the, all of the activities. She made that very, very conditional and, and used that to, um, exert pressure and leverage me, leverage me away. And, um, how I rationalized it to my head. Because when I left the movement, I still had the, I still kept the, the beliefs. I said, why should I fight for a bunch of white people who couldn't give a damn whether I lived or died? Um, if I really want to do something for the white race, I make sure these two children thrive and survive. And that's how I left the movement behind. Preserve my identity. Cuz the challenge at this point, it's not just the ideas I had in my head, it was my whole identity. It was who I was. It was who I hung out with the music I watched, listened to the movies, I watched, the books I read. It was sort of all consuming part of my identity. And that's a, it's a challenge to make that pivot and keep the identity intact when the ego is incapable of incredible gymnastics and rationalizations to make that happen. And a funny thing happened is as I embraced, and, and became this full-time single father in the 1990s, being a, a single father was like a unicorn. And then people would in the back, like, oh my God, that's so amazing. You're a, a single father. That's incredible. No one ever said that to a woman in the nineties. Yeah, right. And, but I was getting attention. Little, little acceptance,

Chuck 16:43

societal mis misogyny

Tony 16:45

there. But no, I mean, it's, it was just, yeah, just the, the reality. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's totally unfair and that's why I always acknowledge that. But, um, but I started to get the things that I got from the movement, but in a, in a healthier way. Right. And, and being, be, being single father was the identity I transitioned into. And once I had that identity, I was able to let the other one go. But I was, no, I said, I'm, I'm not recanting. And I, I'm never gonna be one of those guys that talked to high school. I think TJ Liden was sort of just getting going around then, or shortly after, but I wasn't gonna be one of those guys. And, I only, my, my former self could look at me now. Um, but that's, that's how I made that, that pivoted. And I never dealt with any of the underlying wounds that made those choices feel right in the, in the first place. So I was still, I was still an asshole, right? I wasn't violent. Um, but my strength was always with wi was with my tongue. And I could, um, I was really good at humiliating people with in humorous ways, and I still was like that, I was not a nice person to be around, particularly if I was drunk. Um, so I, I was, I still had that toxicity in me, but at the time I left, there was no, there was nowhere to go or anything. I just, made, made the adjustment and kept going, but I was still, I was still a toxic person even though I wasn't publicly spewing hate or anything like that. And it was, um, funny, funny enough, at the same time that I left, um, I was in a lot of contact with George Birdie from Resistance Records and, and all of that. And, and we sort of talked each other out of the movement in our disillusionment. So I did have someone who left at the same time I did, um, that I could, that I could talk to in in that regard. And I think at that time he he discovered eastern mysticism and married um, an Indian woman, east from India, ancestry from India. Um, and went down that, that spiritual journey. But it was, it was, um, it wasn't until I started a, a spiritual journey that the doors opened up for, for me to get, um, healing and, and find the right person to. Helped me deal with, with the toxicity that I've continued to spew over the people around me.

Chuck 19:35

Yeah. Talk in the, in the book about radical compassion being the answer to shame, toxic shame, particularly, um, and, and recognizing our connection, um, as human beings to everybody else. The little passage from the books is, as humans, we are seemingly in a tug of war between our connection and oneness with everything and everyone, the spiritual or heart-based connection and our experience of being separate, disconnected from everything and everyone, it is not one or the other. Rather, we are always experiencing both at the same time. That's that's pretty powerful in that, Part of the movement is, like I said earlier, it's the linear thinking, the black and white, and not being able to exist in the gray area. Right? Not, not wanting to have, um, like a spectrum or a nuance to answer the, like the, the important questions in our lives. Um, but everybody, I believe does experience some kind of trauma. And not being able to deal with that trauma can lead you to these places. Right. And the best way to. Exit these places is to understand your, your trauma, whatever it is that is causing you to have this like self-hatred that you're turning out on the world. Um, so like learning to exist in that space where, both of those polarities are, are true in their own sense, but you have to find like a place to exist between them because, horrible shit does happen in the world, but the world is also a wonderful place and human beings are wonderful. Like, and we are all human beings.

Tony 21:34

Me, well it's, whether we can see it or not, whether we can feel it or not. Um, we are all. Connected and there's, there's exercises or things you can have people guide you through to experience that connection and, and just about everybody, if they try that, we'll experience that connection. It's always there, but we just can't see it or feel it. Yeah. I certainly couldn't feel it when I was, when I was in that space. The, the, the, the ego in the mind sees the world through the lens of separation. Yeah. My thinking, that's, that's the ego. That's, that's the mind. The heart sees the world through connection and you can look at, at, doesn't matter which faith you pick, pluck the holy book from. Yeah. You can tell if the person talking about that holy book is coming from the mind or coming from the heart, because one will be, heathens and infidels and sinners and, good and bad and all of that. Or they're talking about compassion, forgiveness coming together. Oh man, they're talking about the same book, so you can, you can tell by the and politics is the same, the political rhetoric, um, which, which lens are they, are they vocalizing? Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I, I like to, to stay with the Heart centered.

Chuck 22:53

I, I, I have this, like, I tell, I've told this to people what times when they ask, but I had this, um, epiphany experience after I'd been out. I don't know, I'd been out eight or nine years or something like that. But like, when we got out there, there was no Life After Hate. There were no organizations, like all of us kind of basically were

Tony 23:17

on

Chuck 23:17

our own and, and trying to figure out how to get through this and, and, it wasn't until I discovered, Frankie's book and, and met you guys and Life After Hates Forum and I started integrating with that, that I really was able to open up and around that same time, just before that time. Um, like I, I grew up in Southern California and traffic here is awful and road rage is a thing and I suffered from it and probably, well, not even probably, I still do. It's a little, it's toned down from the way it used to be, but like, driving in traffic is, is an experience. Um, but I was living about, I working about 35 miles from where I lived and, traffic every day there and back. And I was spending a lot of time listening to Christian Radio at this time. And going through shit, just like going through all this stuff and, and my mind was changing about stuff and I had this, this moment, like on my way to work, stuck in traffic with 20,000 cars packed around me. And I just had this like, overwhelming sensation of like, brotherhood. Um, and I mean that in, in a non-gender sense because it was for everybody that, that all of those people that are around me and by extension, like everybody on the planet was just a human being going through life the best they can, like with the same heart and feelings and, and wants and desires for themselves and for their families. As, as 99. Percent of the rest of the human beings on the planet. And it just, it was so palpable and, and like, I mean, I, I can like reach back and touch it anytime I want and I probably don't do it frequently enough. But like that, that moment of epiphany was just so incredible. And, I, I, I wish that for anyone and everyone,

Samantha 25:19

once you guys reach those points though, like when you have those moments of clarity, are those things that you have to like, and Chuck, you kind of just touched on it, but like, are those things you have to consciously remind yourself of and make that choice every day? Or is it something that like once it happens you're like, I'm transformed forever of like, which it's a practice. Correct. It's not just a thing that happens and then you're changed.

Chuck 25:45

Yeah, absolutely. It's a practice. I still. Annoyed as hell at people in traffic, and I have to like, I, I mean, it is absolutely a practice. It's a daily, lifelong, I won't say struggle cause it's not a struggle. It's just something that you have to, center yourself on and be conscious of. And remember,

Tony 26:05

if we don't practice it, um, we forget it. Yeah. Right. We slowly forget it. And, and there's times when, when I'm not as, it's like going to the gym. I'm not as frequent in my practice as, as other times. And, um, it's noticeable. My partner would say to me, Tony, you need to go for a walk in the woods. Yeah, right. That's, and and for me it's, it's the, the walking. It's an hour long walking meditation I do in the forest near my house. And it's. I remember the first time doing that, the, the hairs on the back of my neck were standing and feeling that, that connection and, and I often refer to the, the forest. It's, it's my church Yeah. Is the forest. And, um, sometimes I refer to it as my spiritual chiropractor, sometimes That's great. I love that. I need an adjustment. So I go in and then yeah, feel centered again, whenever I'm filling off center, I go in and yeah, the odd time I'm really off center and it takes two trips. But, um, yeah, that's where I go to give my gratitudes. That's where I go to, um, ask questions or try and seek the solution to problems. And there's this one 40, well, 45 minutes in, that's usually where the answers just download. It's, it's a, it's a weird, a weird thing, but that's, that's the, the little ritual or practice that I do to keep myself, um, Connected and also connecting. I think, and a very important part to that is connecting with little Tony,

Chuck 28:10

talk about Little Tony. I mean, you talk about him in the book a lot. And I, it's never, that's never something that I've, um, thought of consciously, cuz I haven't, like, I, I don't think I've been in the same types of, um, workshops or whatever that you've done. But it, it resonates with me a lot. Cause it,

Tony 28:32

it's, yeah, the thing, so I think of who, who, who was little Tony? Who, who did, who did I come into the world to be? Who was I at the age of three or four or five? And I think obviously this bright, curious, sensitive, mischievous, a little stubborn, um, open, curious, um, So the world, little guy, and as, as life happens to us, we find it's not necessarily safe to be those things. And we put on armor and protections and numb ourselves as we get older. So we don't feel pain, um, or we put on masks to be someone we're not in order to feel safe or in order to feel, feel loved. And when I think of who I was at, um, my depth in the movement, um, I was probably, I couldn't be more incongruent with who little Tony was. I was the opposite of, I wasn't curious, I wasn't, sensitive. I wasn't any of those things. And what I discovered is the more out of sync I am with little Tony, the more difficult my life becomes, the more, the more struggle and nothing flows, flows easily. And what I've discovered through. The healing work, um, is the more I can come into alignment and integrity with who little Tony is, um, the more life again, becomes easier and the more I enjoy flow, so and so as you do this work, you kind of go, well, my life's getting easier. You just want to keep doing it. Like, how, how much better can Ken Ket? And so it's, trying to live a life that's in congruence with with little Tony. Um, Dr. Dick Schwartz who created Internal Family Systems. Hmm. You go back and talk to the, and, and interact with the for me, at the time it was a three-year-old and a six-year-old. The wounds. And, um, it was pretty, pretty interesting because what happens, um, just not to go too far into this, but tho those parts of us in our wounds get exiled and these protector pieces in our mind step in and take over, and they can be managers or perfectionists or the, um, different aspects that protect that exile piece. And if with the right clinician they can get through and, and those protectors don't have to protect anymore, and you can call forward that, that piece, I did that and, it was, it was, um, it was pretty profound, what happened. But it was very, it was more, much more complicated, but it was very similar to, to that, um, Inner child work that I've done with with Dobb and, and through that, that book, homecoming very powerful stuff.

Samantha 31:30

Yeah. Um, actually my, um, we have like a Slack chat, but just kind of like my little icon or my avatar is me at, at 11 or 12 years old and I kind of, anytime I do anything cool or have an accomplishment, like I have, I write a little letter to myself of like, Hey, like I did this for us. Like we're doing okay. Um, but so much of my adult life, I have found once you. Once you are in a place where you can handle it, cuz it's painful, it is really painful to look back at your inner child and realize you have become who you are to protect yourself. Not not to express, but to protect yourself, especially after you've left the movement. Um, and the work that you can do to, to get back to the authentic you before you were bruised in that way is really, really profound stuff. Um, and it's such a bummer that the movement is so against mental health help and introspection and it's just find the other guy, just find the other issue and it's like, I don't know. I'm not gonna say the movement wouldn't exist or that we'd cure racism or anything like that, but like, golly, a lot less people would be super angry all the time for no reason if they just just looked in a mirror, honestly, every once in a while. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I, um, so was that, or was it your was it your spiritual chiropractor walks that, that helped you find compassion? Or like, what was the journey to that? Were you dismantling yourself and then finding

Tony 32:59

it? Yeah, and, and I did that with, with, um, with Dove Barron. So, I'd, I'd, I'd started the, the spiritual journey and I was kind of interested in, if you remember a film that came out, what the bleep do we know, in creating your own reality and stuff like that. And it really, it was the quantum physics sort of side of the, of the WOOWOO stuff that got me. I don't think I would've got it just from a pure spiritual side, but it was like, the quantum physics behind, the nature of our reality and stuff like that, cause I was, I was nerdy. That really, really drew me in. Gotta

Chuck 33:36

find an intellectual, intellectual route to, to the spiritual connection that we all share through quirks and, and stuff like that, right.

Tony 33:45

Are, are we living in a simulation? Yeah. Anything for the brain to get on and, and give permission for more to come. Right. And, and that's, that's all the spiritual stuff stuff got in. But had the opportunity to, um, I started a new career as a financial advisor in 2004 and I was having some really good success and wanted to, in the, in the light of that secret and law of attraction stuff kind of enhanced that. And so I started to do these, um, workshops with a guy named Dog Barron and he. 10 years older than me from Manchester. I'm from around Liverpool and, and we bonded over Monty Python and quirky eighties Brit pop and stuff like that. He had a very similar sense of humor. And, I'd done all, all these courses over the span of about eight months and, and and my life had started to improve and my relationship started to improve. And, it was all about getting out of the way of your limiting beliefs and dealing with your ego and stuff like that. And it's after eight months, it's my birthday and the guy who'd introduced me to this stuff, um, gives me a gift certificate for my birthday. And I take the gift certificate and open it up and it's like, ah, gift certificate for one-on-one counseling session with doff. Like, great. He doesn't want therapy for his birthday, right?

Samantha 35:04

That would

Chuck 35:05

be like, yeah. It's like, excuse me,

Tony 35:08

thanks. So I go, I go to this thing and you, and this is a relationship I valued. He was, I considered him a friend and. I'm telling them about why I'm angry at my dad and angry at my mom. And, and I'm like, do I tell'em the rest? Do I tell'em about being a neo-Nazi and a skinhead and a violence and the Holocaust denial? And I was terrified to do that because in my experience, when people had found out about my past, it was the end of the relationship. And a couple times it was the end of an entire social circle. Like, put your coat on leave and you never see those people again. Um, and so I was, I was, I was terrified. So I'm, I'm staring at the floor looking for some wisdom from the pattern in the carpet. And nothing, nothing's coming. Surprise, surprise. It's like, what is it you wanna say, mate? Just, just let it out. And I stared another piece of the carpet and hoping it'll gimme a, an insight. Nothing coming. He's like, mate, look, we're on the clock here. You look like you wanna swallowed three golf balls. It's okay. It's safe. Let it out. I'm humming and hing and I'm, I'm like, I'm, this is a relationship I value. I'm terrified. To lose it. So I, I don't want to tell him, but eventually I decided in this great leap of faith and vulnerability to just let it all out and tell him all about all the stuff in airy nations and all the, all the stuff I just mentioned before. And the more I tell him, the more he starts smiling. And the more he starts smiling, the more I start getting totally pissed off. Like, here I am in my first session and he's laughing at me like, what's so funny? And he leans in with a big Cheshire cat grin on his face and he goes, I'm Jewish, right? I'm

Chuck 36:41

like, of course.

Tony 36:44

Why wouldn't Evey duh. Yeah. The irony of it. But there I was, cheeks burning with shame. And knowing that, here's a guy that loves me, loves my family, wants to help me, wants to heal me. And here I am, knowing that I'd once advocated for the annihilation of him and his people. Yeah. And he looked at me and he said, that's what you did. That's not who you are. I see you. Wow. See Tony, and with that I started balling, oh yeah, you're

Samantha 37:16

done, you're done during the day. Yeah, yeah.

Tony 37:17

After that. Um, but with that Kim, the, the realization, if, if he could learn to love me, then certainly I could be able to learn to love myself. And that began, um, um, still have a relationship with, with him today. But the, for the next five, six years, probably over a thousand hours of one-on-one in group counseling was that journey of self-discovery and peeling back the layers and running, running towards the pain and the wounds and the hurt that I've been running away from my entire life. Yeah. And it's, it's, um, one of the most difficult journeys I think human being can do. Um, it's not so much difficulty in that it's. Climbing Mount Everest difficulty, it's, I, the analogy I often use, it's, go to the downtown Business Corps and run around the block naked for, for half an hour. It's not hard to do, but psychologically it's hard to do. You're like, I can't do that. Forget it. Right. Um, but the psychological fear is, is is profound because we've avoided these wounds. Yeah. Our, our whole lives. And as, as much as it is difficult, it's, it's profoundly rewarding. Yeah.

Chuck 38:36

Yeah. It, it's the red hot kettle that you touched that you're never gonna look at again. Right.

Tony 38:41

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, but once you start to experience, you, you jump through the wall of flames and you go like, it's just an illusion. Yeah. Yeah. Like it, and then your, your life gets, gets better. The, a as you repair the relationship with yourself, you repair, you repair the relationship that the quality. Of the relationship you have with yourself defines the quality of the relationship you have with everybody else, right? So as, as you can build and, and repair that connection with yourself, um, without doing or saying anything, you, you'll actually notice shifts in your relationship with others. It's, it's, yeah. It's, um, it's a, it's a strange thing to, to experience, but you, like, it just changes everything in, in a profound way. You don't have to have a conversation with each person to change the nature of the relationship. It who you are in the relationship changes, thereby that changes the relationship. Yeah.

Samantha 39:37

Abely and even the people that, the, the relationships that you choose to participate in. I remember when I had first left, I was, I was doing that thing. I'm, I'm. I'm sure you went, I don't know, maybe you went through it too, but like, where you'll talk to people and you'll be like, I'm such a bad person. Please forgive me. Or I'm going to do everything I can for you to like me or to tell me I'm a good person, cuz I don't know how to do it myself. And once you start doing that internal work, just the standard of how you live your life or the relationships that you're willing to accept completely changes. And I, I say now, like I'm a very sharp pair of scissors in my personal life. Like, I don't have tolerance for people that don't respect me. Um, because I learn to respect myself in a true way and not just like through dignity and legacy. Like it's, it's very much everything I do every day is to honor my life and the world that I live in. Um, and I think that's, that's such a good point that like you can't see the trauma that you have, but if you can work on it within yourself, like it's not other people's job to see that, it's, it's yours and if you can work through it, like. Your, your personal authentic pride comes out and I think it starts to show more than, than any shame you ever had in your life.

Tony 40:55

And we train people around us on how to have, how to be in relationship with us, by the way that we are in relationship with ourselves. Yeah. And if that's, if that's not very good, then we're, we're training the people around us to follow our lead. Right? Yeah.

Samantha 41:09

Yeah. I find that to be really interesting. Um, when you leave, um, especially now with technology and, and people getting docs and stuff like that, there's an expectation that like you leave and if you mean it, you will immediately go back to the people that you directly harm or the communities that you wished ill upon or whatever. Um, but it sounds like you did not take that that route. Um, tell me more about what made you decide to go back now after all this time. Um, and what stopped you from going before?

Tony 41:47

Wasn't that that anything stopped me from going before, but I think that. I think we, for us to do it properly and when, as opposed to just going and, virtue signaling and, and being performative. And being performative. Yeah. Um, if we want to do it with, with true authenticity, we, we need to get ourselves to that, that, that place. And, before I could have done anything like getting involved with Life After Hate, um, for me, I, the first step for me was healing myself. Yeah. That was, that was my focus. And then once I got to a certain point, um, that I wanted to help others have the same sort of healing that I had, and, and sort in, in a similar being, and then it just naturally, naturally, um, progressed. But when I, um, and there's two, two events that I talk about in the book. One is, um, no, there, there's a couple in the book. Um, being on Radio India in 1998, around the time that I left and it, it part affected my decision to, to, to leave was the murder of Normal Sing Gill. Um, he was a, a 65 year old Sikh caretaker. Yeah. At a temple in, in Sury, was murdered by five Skinheads. Um, and I, I, I'm pretty sure I'd met those, some of those guys, if not all of them. Um, I didn't recruit them, but the guys I recruited recruited them and they were affiliated with the Northern Hammer skins, um, which of course, Michael Wake, I can never remember his name, but the, the guy who, um, murdered the people at the Oak Creek Temple, um, he was affiliated with the hammer skins too. And it's interesting that, that both both seek temple massacres are connected to the same group in the background. It's small murderous

Samantha 43:45

world.

Tony 43:45

Yeah. Um, yeah, so I, and I, I did this interview, um, this journalist, Gerret Singh, um, invited me onto a show and I was on there for two hours and, and, and the, the, the listeners were all, um, Indo-Canadian, east Indian mostly from the Punjab. And, I had to acknowledge, can I honestly say that I had 0.0 0, 0, 0 0 0% to do with the, the death of normal single that I, I contributed absolutely nothing to that. I wasn't anywhere near it when it happened, and I had nothing to do with the actual, the actual, um, murder. But in terms of moral responsibility for my actions and what I was saying and what I was putting out into the world, um, actually had to. Accept some responsibility for that. So I worked closely with, with, um, the Temple and, and worked with, um, actually met some of the family of Normal Sing Gil. And this just this last January was the 25th anniversary of, of his murder. Um, and I went, I spoke out at, at his temple where it happened and spent time with his, spent time with his grandson and, and, um, really worked at, at, um, working with the community and, and making sure normal's memory, um, was not forgotten. So I always, take the opportunity to, to talk about his murder, um, be because it was a, it was a significant event here in Vancouver. Um, but, in, in doing that, um, sort of organically, but seeing the, the effect that it had. On, on the community itself, from the Temple priest down to his relatives and, and even the listeners on the radio show that day. Um, it, it, it felt very good to do it, and I know it was having an effect. So, in 2018 and I had the opportunity to go to Auschwitz. Went to Auschwitz and, and we I spent 15 hours over two days with a guide, one-on-one. Oh God. Um, going through all of that and, and we documented the whole thing that's at the core of, of that, that film. But that's, that's coming out, um, dealing with Holocaust, Nile, and, and history because if there's one people that I've harmed the most, it's by easily hands down the Jewish community and yeah. And it's, I remember, doff taught me, how to do an apology, right? And, and so the question is, how did what I do or, or did, how did that affect you? And then you just shut up and listen Without deflecting, without, interrupting, you have to fully provide the space for the person to express, what um, what harm that you did to them. And I remember doing that to one to a, a Jewish friend saying, how did my activities as a neo-Nazi, how did that affect you? And he told me this story about, and, and I've heard this many times, um, before nsn, um, that his mom used to keep a suitcase with the pos, with passports and money by the front door in case the Nazis ever came again. And I sort of had to acknowledge. That, with my high profile activities during that time, I made sure that suitcase can never be put away. That as long as there was the threat of Nazis in the street, that suitcase with passports and money was gonna be by the front door. And, um, and he, he, he said, you gotta talk to my rabbi. And, and he does what he does, what every, every every good Jew does when they meet in ex neo-Nazis, they get on the phone, they call they call, they call his rabbi. So I go and meet with his, I go and meet with his rabbi, and I'm not Jewish, but I have a rabbi, rabbi Dan at Temple Shalon in Vancouver. And I go and meet with him and he, he says I want you to come talk to my congregation. And he goes, I know exactly when you're coming in. So, and it was September, I think, high holy days. And, and I went, went there do was with me and. I talked to that congregation and, and I told them that the very first anti-Semitic act that I did was to put a sticker on the very front door of that synagogue. The same one we're, we're in 30 years before. Oh, wow. Yeah, you could actually, it was the congregation, the temple filmed that it was, um, called the chuva of a white supremacist. Chuva means return in Hebrew to re to return to God and our fellow man through acts of repentance and atonement for our wrongs. Um, and I was like nervous. I was kind of crapping myself. I'm thinking like, it, it was gonna, people are gonna be hostile and, people are gonna judge me. And, um, but they couldn't have been more open and appreciative of the fact that, um, I was standing, sitting there before them and acknowledging the, the harm that I had. Done to them. And, all that stuff about that, that I was afraid of was just in my, was in my head. And, and it was, um, it was a profound, profound experience. So we, we made this, we made this film, and we worked closely with, um, historians and everything to make sure that we got it. Got it. Right. The crazy thing is, is 66% of millennials and 41% of adults can't say what Auschwitz was. Yeah. And as the last of the Holocaust survivors, um, pass away. Yeah. It all, all of a sudden it becomes black and white footage from the before time. So the film's not about me. And, and we, we went to great lengths to make sure it was important to me that it wasn't about me, but it's told through me. So using my story as a platform to tell that history, to make it relevant to young people today. Yeah. Um, and to, um, I, I suppose I have a carmic debt to pay and that's part of the part of my reparation for that. Yeah. Can't wait to

Chuck 50:34

see it, man. Like

Samantha 50:35

Yeah. That's gonna be really powerful. Yeah. It's gonna be excellent. Yeah. It's a very, um, it's kind of a frightening thing to see how much history is just being ignored or erased or like through legislature just being forgotten on, on purpose. It is such a scary thing and you can't help, I mean, we all see it. The three of us see it. We know exactly why it's happening. This is, this is intentional. Yeah. Um, but I do think it's, it's definitely on a different note, it's definitely worth to reiterate kind of what you're saying, Tony, of like, When you leave the movement, you do think the whole world is against you. And, you recognize in some ways, like everyone has a right to not like you or want you in their space or to do anything. But I have found too in, in my journey of, of healing in all of this, that I am profoundly surprised and encouraged and inspired every time it comes out. Or I'll talk to someone how kind and understanding and forgiving, even, even by proxy people are, um, it's so much the only fear is what's within you and the fear you instilled on other people when you were in the movement. But most people generally just want you to do well.

Tony 51:56

Um, absolutely. And, and, um, the more authentic you are, the more the more they feel that. Yeah.

Chuck 52:05

Yeah. I, I just, I've, I've spoken to hundreds of people, many of whom. Have every right to, wanna have nothing to do with me. Um, be because they're, whatever category that I was advocating for the extermination of at, at one point in my life. And rarely, I, I can't remember a single time, honestly, where somebody openly rejected who I am now. And that, that's a lie that people in the movement tells themselves. That's a lie I told myself for years after leaving, is that this has to be a, a secret because nobody's ever gonna forgive it. Um, that, that, I always have to carry shame for this. And it's just not the case. Like, I mean, people, people. Willing to see you for who you are now and willing to forgive and willing to recognize that you are now working against the things that you once believed because you realize how toxic and, um, even, like Abram Kendi has a says in his book that, you know, um, how to be an anti-racist. He's got a line that says white supremacy is anti-white. And when I read that, it just like struck me so hard because like the most anti-white thing that exists is white supremacy. Like, it, it's done so much detriment, so much harm to all of the people of the world, including white people that you know. Anyway, I don't, I got off on a tangent there, but people are, Ready to accept. If you can recognize that, the stuff you advocated for is genocidal and harmful to yourself and everyone else around you. People, people recognize that you have changed. People are willing to accept change in my experience, and there's been a fair amount of it,

Tony 54:26

I've come across the, the, the odd person that, that can't, um, or it's just not in a place where they can, um, feel that way about it. Um, I think I think I wrote, wrote about in the book, when I talked to four gay guys at a party one night and I told them what I'd done as far as gay bashings. Yeah, when I was younger and I said, I, I know I never did it to you, but somebody else did. Yeah. I, I know I didn't never did it to you, but I did it to your community. Yeah. Um, and I apologized and I think I asked them if they could forgive me, but really it's not me. That was sort of early on in my process and it's not, it's not for me to ask them that. Yeah. Right, right. And I acknowledge that and, and three of the guys were, in tears and gave me hugs, and one guy had his arms crossed and, and wasn't there, and it's just where he is at. I mean, it's, it's very, forgiveness is a very personal journey and I think one of the, the, the things people mistake the most about forgiveness is it's not about the other person. When we forgive someone, it's not, it's not for their benefit. Right. For our benefit to release the anger and the negative energy, Yeah, yeah. That we're holding about that that person, you can forgive a person without ever telling them. You just see yourself from that. And if we're not ready to, um, and there's lots of reasons why we're not ready to, um, that's

Chuck 56:00

one of the most cathartic moments I've ever had in my life, was learning to forgive my molester. I mean, yeah. And, and I never told him, cuz I don't even know if the guy's still alive. I have no idea where or where he is or anything. But like, letting that go was like a mountain of bricks coming off my back, so, yeah,

Samantha 56:21

there's that, that old saying that holding onto resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die,

Chuck 56:28

and it's, Tony uses that in the book, so. Oh, really? Yes, he does.

Samantha 56:35

That's sick. But I mean, it's so true and it's like, it's just such a frustrating, like you hold on. I mean, it's, it kind of goes back to everything we were talking about it, like self-protection. It's like you hate other people because you feel powerless within yourself and you hold onto these resentments and then, eventually you get to this place or, I, it took me a few years to get to it, but you kind of realize like the real strength isn't forgiving. The real strength isn't going on after you've been knocked down. Like, oh yeah, it's, it's just such

Chuck 57:07

a, and not, not letting that, that event, that whatever it was, that thing that hurt you, not letting that define you for the rest of, you're going forward. I mean,

Samantha 57:18

Yeah. Or, or even as Tony's taught the whole, the whole point of the book of like compassion, radical compassion, like that is strength that is hardcore like realness where you're just like, yeah, I, I understand, or it's okay. Or you're a human being. Like to be able to say that to someone or even to yourself after you've, you've done something that you don't know if you can live with or if someone did something to you that is just this, this crazy life changing thing, to be able to do that and say, it's not gonna beat me like that is, that's it. That's what it's all about.

Tony 57:53

Yeah. It's a, to a quote that, that you'll like to chuck, I found, I can't remember if it's in the book or not, but, um, it's one of doves and it's like, don't let, don't let your past keep your future in a head. Yeah,

Chuck 58:07

yeah, my, my past had my future in a headlock and was punching itself in the nose, like, I

Samantha 58:12

mean, giving yourself nos. Yeah. Were there things that happened to you or that you had noticed within yourself where you were kind of like, oh, I'm growing in this moment, or I'm electing to do this thing that helped you become more compassion or forgive yourself or move forward?

Tony 58:33

Well, a lot of it came through the work I did with Dov, and, and a lot of that was in, was in a, um, a group setting too. So, um, vulnerability, and, and when someone can create a safe space for us to be vulnerable and we can be vulnerable, without repercussion. Yeah. Um, that's a truly liberating, liberating experience, and that, and when we can get that stuff out into the open and what's no longer the dirty secret, um, it's very, very liberating. Yeah. Yeah. But we, we need, people who can guide us through these experiences. Not every situation is safe to be vulnerable. I mean, we're, we learn at an early age. It's not safe to be vulnerable. But when we can, when we can get that, and once you start experiencing this stuff and then you, you experience the positive effects it has on your life, you, you kind of don't wanna stop. Yeah. Right? Because every time you challenge yourself, your life gets better, yeah. Challenge yourself, your life gets better. So, yeah. Well, life's pretty good. I'm gonna stop making it better now. It's like, no, you, you always, another layer of the onion to peel, to get to that deeper sense of, of authenticity. And as we do that, um, how, how we can conserve the world, changes. And at the beginning, like I said, I needed to, I needed to serve me before I could serve the world, yeah. And the healing process. And now it's, it's evolved to, um, being able to serve people in a, in a deeper way. And we, we can always help someone who's at least one or two steps behind us and. Um, the challenges I think for, for people who want to enter this space is they, they want to help other people before they've helped themselves enough. And if we've only taken five steps in our healing journey, then we can only help people who are on the third or fourth step. Right? We've taken a hundred steps into our healing journey, then we can help people who are all the way up to 97, 98 steps. Yeah. Right? And, and if you want to be, be helping people, the best way to do that is to, figure your own stuff out. And the the beautiful thing about that process is that, the more do connected me to little Tony and the more I could connect to my own humanity, the more I could recognize the humanity in others. Yeah. And the more I could recognize the humanity in others, the more I recognize them in, in, in my, in me. Yeah. So famous like feedback loop. Right. The more I discovered myself, the more I saw myself in others, and the more I discovered others, the more I saw them in me. And this like feedback loop of, of recognition of, of the connectedness and the, the humanity outside and within was, was profound. Yeah.

Samantha 1:01:36

Yeah. No, absolutely.

Chuck 1:01:40

So Tony, the book is The Cure for Hate. Yeah. Yes. And the movie is,

Tony 1:01:48

the movie is The Cure for Hate Bearing Witness to Auschwitz.

Chuck 1:01:51

Okay. And when is that coming out again?

Tony 1:01:53

Um, it'll, it'll be in the film festival circuit for the next year, so depending on, oh, that's cool.

Chuck 1:01:58

Okay. Yeah.

Tony 1:01:59

So we'll be cool um, all over the places. As soon as I have a boomer schedule, I can maybe let you know where they can see it in their communities. Great. Yeah. It'll be hopping around.

Samantha 1:02:11

Yeah, that'd be awesome. Um, well, I mean, thank you for giving us your time and for talking. This is great.

Tony 1:02:17

This is awesome. There's a, there's a Cure for Hate song now. Oh, holy shit. Really? That's awesome.

Chuck 1:02:23

Are you gonna, are you gonna sing it? Is that what you just said?

Tony 1:02:25

No, no. I'm not gonna sing. That's super cool. Female vocalist with and then is featuring a rapper in it. Nice. Nice.