How to Come Clean to Your Family

Episode 1 is full of thoughts on how we talk to our families about our involvement, how to navigate our new identities with people, and the beginning of this whole season of How To’s.

NOTES:

Lauren’s book: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/walking-away-from-hate-jeanette-manning/1139014233

Frankie’s book:https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/autobiography-of-a-recovering-skinhead-frank-meeink/1100199676

Tony’s book:https://www.thecureforhate.ca/

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Transcript

Samantha 0:11

Welcome to the Daily Former, a podcast about how the far right does not have to be the rest or the end of your life. In this conversation, we're going to be talking about how to talk to your family and how to come clean about your past, about who you are now, and about what you want to do in the future. My name is Sam, and the first time that I openly talked to my family about being in the far right, it was on the way to the beach to spread my grandmother's ashes.

Brad 0:36

my name is Brad. And the first time I really talked to them about it was when they watched the documentary of my life. Was put out on national TV in Canada.

Lauren 0:47

my name's Lauren. the first time that I really talked to anybody in my family about my involvement actually was when my mother and I started writing the book.

Samantha 0:56

How long were you both out before these conversations took place?

Lauren 1:01

For myself, about two years, two, three years.

Samantha 1:04

And for Brad?

Brad 1:05

Six.

Samantha 1:07

Geez,

Brad 1:08

six, yeah. I mean, my immediate family knew, like, my wife and, her parents, but, my extended family on my side they knew I was involved in something and we hadn't talked for, a long time.

Samantha 1:20

really kind of jealous that at least gave you guys a little bit of time? for my grandmother, I think I was out for eight weeks maybe, and I was a fucking mess. is there a. Quote unquote foolproof way to bring it up like, did you just outright take ownership of it? Did it come up in a conversation? what was the circumstance of all of it?

Lauren 1:41

so, for me, actually, there was something in the news, of a girl who actually lived about 20 30 minutes away from us at the time. she had her laptop seized, and a bunch of other stuff taken from her after creating a bunch of YouTube videos singing Happy Birthday to Hitler and shit. I think that was around 2016 or so. my mom and I were watching it on the news, and I'm like, Aren't you happy I don't support this shit anymore? And she goes, Oh, you have no fucking idea. Very happy. so my mom did have a general idea, about what I was into. It's just we never started having in depth conversations about it until just after I got involved with Life After Hate, actually. So she used to use my bookshelf as her own personal library and just take whatever she wanted from there. We're just like a pretty open household like that. So she had read Frankie's book actually, Autobiography of a Recovering Skinhead, and really liked it, but she started asking me questions. you know, how similar, is your experience to this guy's? Because I feel like it probably is. And I'm like, well, definitely in some ways it is. So she, brought up that she wishes there was a manual or just something to help parents. I mean, it's too little too late for us, but we could always start something,

Samantha 2:56

what were the details that your mom wished that she had? And were you, I mean, you're a pretty open person, but were there things that she had asked where you were just kind of like, this is too painful or like, I'm just not going to talk to you about this.

Lauren 3:09

Well, we actually kind of decided to do this over time where, like, we just open up, on our own terms to one another. if you wanted to, leave a question that was asked, or, if you didn't want to answer it right away, you could just say, okay, let's put this on the shelf for later. But actually, I found the opening up process to come pretty naturally and on our own time, if that makes sense. Until, of course, our publishers got involved, and then they needed to know absolutely everything for the sake of a really tight timeline that they put on us. But anyways, it all worked out

Samantha 3:40

Yeah. Good for you for being able to make that happen. what about you, Brad? were you like gather around everybody? It's time to watch the documentary. I'll take questions afterwards. what was the process?

Brad 3:52

the intention was of the documentary to not just. Talk about my life. But give an example of a person like Frankie gave with his book and Tony with his book and Lauren and her mom with their book. give another example of how you can leave and how like we said at the beginning of conversation. it shouldn't be the end of your life, And it doesn't have to be your life stuck in the far right. that doesn't need to be you. And I still get people sending me messages, today that are really positive.

Samantha 4:21

when you did talk to your... in laws. were they accepting of it? And were they willing to I don't want to say like, keep the secret, but Was it like, this is Brad, we don't talk about him? Or were they telling everybody? How did that go?

Brad 4:35

her parents were really happy that I had left that behind many years ago. and, even to this day, If I'm, doing any public work or public speaking or news appearances, things like that, they'll watch and they'll, tell me what they think about it, even if it's not great or whatever, but that's the point though. Again, it's about engaging people in conversation and trying to, help people understand what it was really about. and particularly family, like if they are actually interested, and I think my in laws were genuinely interested of what that was like, and, what it was like to leave, and now the work on the other end that we're all involved in, right?

Samantha 5:12

when you are telling people about this and having these conversations, and this is for both of you, how does it change the dynamic of your relationships? I'm are there. Rejections and if there are like, what do you do about that? I know that the dynamics of some of my relationships had changed, especially in the beginning. there was a lot of I'll let you back into my life under these conditions and the conditions were basically just like, just continue to not be a fascist. And I was like, perfect. but. when a relationship is severed with you or you do experience that rejection? how do you decide if you want to continue to try and fight for it or let it go? can relationships be salvaged or is it just not worth your time? Like, how did you guys navigate that?

Lauren 5:56

so, for my family, it's interesting. It's either they're, Team Lauren and Jeanette, like, they're all behind us, or they just don't want anything to do with us, period. Like, there's no in between. So as far as the ones who don't want anything to do with us, period, honestly, I jokingly tell people all this all the time, that if you have any toxic family members you want to get rid of, just write a book or go public. It'll take care of itself. Because that was the story for us. And the reason why that happened, it's actually less about me ever being involved in that, and more about the fact that in the book they were not really portrayed very well. Because, well, this is how they behaved at the time, and we're just gonna give the facts for what it was. So, currently, we have not talked to them in years, and it's no skin off our asses whatsoever.

Samantha 6:41

what did it feel like to be honest in that regard? especially as formers, once we leave, you know, we're supposed to be so grateful that we have a second chance and we're supposed to be so gracious and all of that. And we are human. We are extremely fucking human. what did it feel like to be able to just be honest and clear and clean about everything?

Lauren 7:01

It actually felt pretty good, because, you know, the interesting thing about what you had mentioned, Sam, that whole thing about, basically bend over and take it because we deserve it? That's kind of how I was raised, to turn the other cheek to be the better person, blah blah blah. But the thing is, that doesn't always work.

Samantha 7:16

Yeah, no, absolutely. What about you, Brad? how was it just getting it off your chest, I guess?

Brad 7:21

I think it was hard at first there was this presentation that I did with, uh, now they're colleagues, but at that time they were new, new friends kind of thing. And one of them was, a black gang member that had left his gang behind. And then there was like a, I think a mob guy and a former is on this guy and I think way that my story has like evolved since then, like it was really Guided back then, like I used to have this presentation But now I tend move away from doing a PowerPoint and just being a person and talking about certain aspects of the story. some people want to hear the story that they already know, but then we're like, here, we're going to tell you some real awkward shit now, and then when you start telling your family about those things just to link that piece and they're like,

Samantha 8:10

Yeah.

Brad 8:11

My actually family members who don't want to talk to me anymore We do not that's not necessary if they don't want to they don't want to but we Can move out and leave ourselves open to dialogue and conversation with people that we had lost By joining those movements, that's all we can do. And, I think it's interesting the way that some of those conversations go. the most recent one was there's a guy who I worked with, an Eastern European guy, and he always had a feeling I was messed up with some stuff. And he came back around after, about 10 years of us not seeing each other. and we went out and we had a coffee and we, and we talked out. All the things that happened where we lost each other and it, it was really nice have, he have as much respect as I had for him for asking me to meet with him. so we're not all lost, right?

Lauren 8:58

say, you know, it's interesting, I find most people I reconnect with, they do take it well. But you have to start off with by saying, I've been out for years.

Samantha 9:06

Yeah. Yeah, kind of like what Brad was saying, like, you kind of have to do the work and, you need to look within yourself and, like, actually change And people can sense when you're full of shit. People can sense when you're just saying the words and going through the motions. when you talk to your old colleague, Brad, how much detail do you go into? and also when you do experience those kinds of rejections or the changes in the friendship or the distancing, had that ever been so painful that it kind of like set you back a little bit?

Lauren 9:39

this is gonna sound weird, and it's kinda cliche to say, but I do go with my gut on this one. Like, generally, I can tell how the conversation is gonna go based on who it is that I'm conversing with. So, if I don't sense that it's gonna go well, I don't even bother. And I'm like, you know what, it is a time saver, cause it's a new A do no harm approach, too, because, if there's someone who had written me off years ago and, like, I just so happened to run into them again and be in front of them, it's like, is it really worth bringing this up? Because I don't know how it's going to affect them, I don't know how it's going to affect me, right?

Brad 10:10

I'm similar to Lauren on that one. I kind of get to the conversation and I see where it goes and see where the respect is in the conversation and see where those doors are opening or closing. sometimes there'll be a person that sounded interested in talking to you at first, but then when you're like, so yeah, there was all this fighting and then these people, we're shooting guns and crap and they're like, well, you know, I get it. Some of the shit we say passively, like we talk. amongst us and we're kind of just like, yeah, that's hilarious. But is it really hilarious to people who have never experienced that level of bullshit before?

Samantha 10:47

Yeah. I am totally with you on that. our gauge is a little different for what's appropriate and what's funny and what's not like, you have to, you have to have a sense of humor about this stuff. You have to be able to look back. It takes time though. I was going to ask when you guys are describing these scenarios that you're in, how long did it take you to get to that place where you don't really feel the need to You know, play your greatest hits and beg for forgiveness. How long did it take you to kind of be like, Oh, they don't like me. that's that.

Lauren 11:16

You know what, actually, not very long for me, because my therapist had encouraged that type of attitude. He's like, you know what, you don't beg for anybody's approval. End of story.

Brad 11:25

Even today, there's still a bit of jockeying that I feel like I have to do with certain people, there's always this strange feeling of talking with people, I know this sounds weird, but they're like jealous that oh, they could have had all those experiences and like you're more interesting than them. And I'm like, trust me, you don't fucking want to have that. Ask my therapist. it doesn't happen as much anymore, though. it's not something we're hugely proud of, and, there's a lot of shame and guilt and all of those other things that are associated with involvement in these types of things, just as there is with gangs or cults or, whatever, right? we just got to plow through the crap and not deal with people if they're just going to be, I mean, if it's disrespectful stuff, I don't have much time for that. if it's actual genuine, criticism stuff, fine. but there's also a deal where, we have our limitations about how much we want to, handle that. Like you're saying, Lauren, why should you have to deal with. intense criticisms about your life, like you've written a book about it. if they're really interested in it, go read the damn book, you know,

Lauren 12:34

Yeah, it also depends who it is who's asking, because some people just ask out of natural curiosity, right? Because, hey, we all enjoy reading and listening to stuff that we don't really know much about. That's nothing new. But, there's definitely a line between that and between criticism, and I feel like it's pretty easy to differentiate the two.

Brad 12:52

Mm hmm.

Samantha 12:53

something that I think about a lot is like we speak out publicly, so we've kind of put ourselves in a position of Oh, well, you know, you told your story publicly. So you are accepting of whatever criticism comes your way, or you will deal with whatever I have to say, because you've put yourself in the public square. And I know that in the beginning, when I started speaking up before I should have, I absolutely took a lot of that and took a lot of it very personally and very deeply. Cause I also didn't like myself very much. And I had to work through all of it. But do you guys feel the same way like you said, well, I wrote a book, you're going to read all the gritty stuff. So you've opened yourself up to whatever people want to tell you. I feel like that's also a form of rejection. People reject that you're a human. you're just the sounding board for all the negative feelings I have about something I don't understand.

Brad 13:41

the movement destroys parts of your life that you didn't know existed, like parts of your emotional health, parts of your physical health, because you're sitting there, destroying yourself over this thing. And, people don't realize what it's really doing to them over time, like the things that they're experiencing that they just throw away. Sometimes it was fun because you go out and just a big blow you drink too much and like that's how you'd suppress all that all that other shit that's going on. But then. When you wake up hungover the next day, and your buddies aren't around anymore and you're sitting there Over drinking to cover up things, not addressing your own shame, not addressing your own, guilt in life for your involvement in this stuff. And it takes a lot to be an angry person all the time. So you're putting all your emotional energy into like being the most angry piece of garbage that you can possibly get yourself to be.

Samantha 14:37

how much time you spend excusing and justifying hating other people just so you can expend Less energy trying to be better yourself, it's, I don't know how to look within me, so I'm just gonna hate everything else full force. And it's like, man.

Brad 14:55

Project everything on everyone else because it's obviously their fault that you hate them. It's their fault. Holy, like you got to be on like, I mean, to convince yourself of that every day, you got to be, doing some fucking mental gymnastics.

Lauren 15:11

to be fair guys, I thought it was tiring doing both, doing all the mental gymnastics, blaming everyone else, finding a way to work that one out in my head. But it was also equally as tiring to hold the mirror up in front of myself, but at the same time, which of those options is actually gonna fix and heal things?

Samantha 15:28

and the movement, it will always be a movement of the future because there's no success in the past and there's no success now and there never will be. And so they always have to have this, like, we just need to keep working towards something, work towards something, and like, leaving the movement and doing the work that we've done, there's actual tangible reward for this. There's actual Visible change that has happened within us. When, if you stay in the movement, you just stay the same or you get worse. I know that Lauren, you lived with your family, Brad, I'm not as familiar with your situation, but, was your family worried about themselves? being at risk, like if they associated with you or anyone hurting them or coming after them. what steps did you take to safety or, you know, how did you deal with that?

Brad 16:15

my wife was definitely worried about people coming to our house because they did. So there was that issue. my extended family, there's a little bit where, towards the end of me being involved, I could tell that they were kind of like, What should we know? Or what should we be doing to, not have anything bad happen? my side of the family, I don't know. I feel like they didn't know or feel like it was as serious as it was. I mean, I don't think they would go to that length, but maybe. I don't, I don't fucking know. These guys are shit. was also just sort of telling them, you should not be living in fear for these people, these people often feel them fear themselves, right? that's how I look at it is that they fear what they are as people like you're saying Lauren not being able to look in the mirror at yourself all of these people that are in those groups are like that. they can't stand to face themselves. Right. and with us leaving. I get it. there's some resonating bad feelings perhaps towards us. but I maintain this, I hope nothing ever happens to any of our families or any other people who leave these movements. But I think, their journeys are as important as ours. I've heard your mom talk about this, Lauren, it's also a journey for parents and family members to go through along with their loved ones who have left these movements. And it's us supporting them too, right?

Lauren 17:42

I know the one thing my mom always says to people is you have to realize that even after your kid gets out of the movement, they're not going to be the same person as they were before they got in. and for me, when my mom said that, I'm like, okay, well, I don't want to go back to the 16 year old version of me. No, thank you.

Samantha 17:57

Yeah. I think that's, that's such a good way of looking at it. I remember when I first started therapy, I kept telling her, like, I just want to be the person I was before I joined. I just, want to go back to that. I don't want to have all this lingering. And one day we were having a conversation and it was just like, right, the person I was before I joined the movement, the movement. I don't want to go back to that. I want to be better than that. So you kind of, you kind of have to accept that you're going to have to change even beyond just you were this and now you're something else. It's like you're this like evolved part of it that has that experience, but it's not the sum of that experience.

Lauren 18:36

so a lot of the time I was saying that, I'm like, can I just, rewind and do things differently, but obviously that can't be done. But I think the reason for me saying that is just because, again, like you said, Sam, we had, all the trauma and, all the crap and all the guilt and shame hanging over us, we just wanted a way to get rid of that.

Samantha 18:50

yeah, no, absolutely. And I think one of The things that lingered the most for me was you learned in the movement that sharing certain parts of yourself not only diminishes the value of it for yourself, but it can also put it at risk. And now there is a real risk. that alone should be enough that like you're in a movement that if you ever just changed your mind, they will go after you and try and hurt you that's, that's not just a movement. That's not like, oh, an ideology of like, once you believe this, you can't go back. It's like, they'll make sure you can't go back. They will go after you and try and harm you. And I think that's worth thinking about. Those are the people you're surrounding yourself with. and with my family, especially now for the far right, I think your best bet is to get some sort of online security team just to lead all of your social media, just kind of start over basically. you can't start your whole life over, but you can at least change your presence online but family is not generally at risk because I don't know, there's so weird unspoken thing. What happened when they showed up on your door, Brad?

Brad 19:57

it was just a stupid gang thing about. give us your coats or give us your whatever's luckily no violence happened. It was in the middle of the day. there was people around, so got spooked and they left. but I hear stories, there's stories from the group that I was in, like, of, home invasions, like, really awful that's the reality of these movements, it denigrates into criminality, it's just really embarrassing, in a lot of ways, that, this is how people act, I know it amounted to fucking nothing. It ruined my whole life. you know, these guys, Oh no, it's just part of my life that I enjoy. And I'm like, you enjoy that? Oh yeah. I'd like a detailed list of what you enjoy about it. I'm

Samantha 20:39

Yeah. I just wanted to touch on it that when you leave and when you talk to your family, there's oftentimes this sense of fear of your family I remember in the movement, I somehow thought I was protecting my family. Like, I was like, I'm bringing us honor and legacy and blah, blah, blah. then I, Left the movement and I realized how actually selfish it was. I'm actually putting my family at risk. especially at the time when I left, if it came out that I was involved at the time, my family members could have lost their jobs. They could have gotten hurt. They could have been ostracized socially. Like you're not doing the things that you think you're doing. But I think newer movements, I was threatened a lot. They would always tell me that they would come to my job and, you know, drag me out, do a personal pan pizza size of the day, the rope me and like that kind of stuff, but it never happened. They've tried to dox me. And I'm less worried about the people that I know. I'm more worried about the randoms that listen to the podcast and read the articles and stuff like that. You know, the fucking mass of it. None of the mass shooters are a part of organizations, you know, They just listen to the same thing and they are just motivated enough to do something. And that is the whole point of the movement. You will die or you will go to jail. that is not the intended end game, but that is how it always goes.

Lauren 21:54

was gonna say, or there's a third option of staying and remaining extremely miserable for the rest of your life, but that's not any better.

Brad 22:02

I want to also add that there's a significant risk to suicide for people who remain in the movement, the longer that they stay there. I'm not sure what the statistics are on this, but we know quite intimately. of folks close to us, that have taken their own lives. I knew during the movement, at least five people that I know took their own life. and I'm not saying directly because of the movement, but I can guarantee it was part of it. and, many others died in the movement, maybe from alcoholism, and Lauren, you know, you were brushing right up against the edge of that at different not that I'm equating those to suicide,

Samantha 22:38

just slow moving. Yeah.

Brad 22:40

Yeah.

Lauren 22:41

the way I see it, guys, actually, coming from a drug addiction background myself, yeah, I was unintentionally, slowly killing myself. I've never actually created, like, a suicide plan but in the back of my mind, that's kind of what I was doing anyways for all those years.

Samantha 22:56

Yeah. I mean, you're taking drugs and drinking and doing all that to escape your life. And a lot of people see suicide as an escape, and that's not to equate the two but Like you said, Lauren, there's no way you don't know that you're damaging yourself, especially when it's that often in that quantity.

Lauren 23:15

and actually, going back to the family aspects of this, my mom said that, honestly, watching both was painful, watching me drown myself in alcohol and drugs, and watching my involvement in the movement, because she said, honestly, both of them had the same impact on her. And that's the thing with most family members are the ones who do legitimately care for us, is they just don't want to see us suffering. That's the big thing here.

Samantha 23:37

Yeah, and I think when you are making decisions to join the movement and do something that is as strict and as impossible to maintain both as a movement and as a person trying to like adhere to all of the quote unquote needs of the movement like you think you're making this good decision for yourself and it really doesn't take long for you to realize that it's an impossibility to keep going. when you bring it up to your family and they're going to have their reactions, right? This is an overwhelming piece of information to learn, and that's just at absolute surface level. That doesn't even include, the experiences or the ideology or the stuff that we have. just, the implication alone is overwhelming. How do you create those safe spaces to be able to tell your story and to hear theirs? what would you suggest, even just to try? Obviously, this is not a one size fits all, but.

Brad 24:30

mean, being vulnerable, allowing for topics that are not necessarily front of mind or top of your list of things to talk about, which are often dealing with, judging yourself and mistakes you've made or things like that. That's okay. Those are good things to talk about, and they can be actually really helpful to talk about rather than keeping all that shit on the inside and suffering with it. So giving a place for people to be heard, it doesn't have to be right at the dinner table after grace. It can be Hey, let's like, hang out and play some PlayStation or whatever And you can talk to them you don't have to be awkward about it. You can let it happen organically. you don't want to like, You know, cut them off and not give them that space to talk about their experiences, because if somebody's sharing that stuff with you, You got to sit in there respecting that that's their wish to tell you, and maybe they haven't told anyone else.

Samantha 25:26

Yeah. something else to add to that is as the family member sharing your feelings always remind yourself that if you're having this conversations because you love each other and you can't name call and be shitty and petty, it's one thing if like. You're having a normal family spat but this is such a life altering and real and profoundly transformative thing that What you say in that moment is going to be what they remember you as. Like, I tried to open up to my family and they said this about me. And they will remember that for the rest of their life. they are a raw wound. And instead of helping them bandage up, you just salted it. it's not easy to talk to people about this. And I think as formers, you have to remember that, not that we've perfected telling our story, but like, we've told it enough. We have enough distance. when I do tell people, I'm not that I'm cavalier about it, but kind of like I'll make jokes about it and I'm very like, yeah, that was, you know, really stupid thing that I did. but when you are first leaving. It can feel like life or death just to tell someone, it could be absolutely life or death just to know that someone can hear you and see you, so make sure that you're talking to people that you at least respect, you know, you don't have to expect them to love you and want to be your friend afterwards, but at least respect whatever decision they make, I would say.

Lauren 26:55

I mean, for most people around my age anyways, like around their early to mid thirties, they already have a story of their own already. So you would hope that they would be somewhat empathetic or understanding of yours.

Samantha 27:06

that's true. one of the later episodes that we're going to do is going to be dating. And I, when I started dating after I left the movement, I remember being like, I don't want to date a parent. Like I can't date someone that's a dad or a mom or whatever. And I. Went on a date with this guy and he had a daughter and I was like, that's kind of a deal breaker for me. And he's like, you just told me you were a neo Nazi and being a dad is a problem for you. And I was like, well, you know, we, all of our standards. but you reach a point where like you do, you kind of expect everyone to have a little, little baggage to check right there at the gate.

Lauren 27:39

to be fair, actually, with that one, that was a deal breaker for me as well, just because raising someone else's kids is not really something I have the patience for.

Samantha 27:48

Yeah. I don't know. Adopted families, Are also very cool. Like, I don't know. It's just such a weird when you're out of it and you have to think about like how much restriction you put on yourself. And like, why does anyone, care so much about it?

Brad 28:01

back to the gymnastics. these things can be something that, you know, you're being supportive. Don't see it as we're attacking our family members by bringing up these things. if your racist uncle Tony says, black people are, all thieves or whatever and he's at dinner. saying something to him is appropriate at that moment because We have to protect the other people who are at the table, and who don't deserve to be part of Uncle Tony's racism.

Lauren 28:27

you don't even have to give Uncle Tony or whoever a long lecture of why that was wrong. You can just tell him, hey, listen, that's not right, man. or if you want to throw a bit of sarcasm in, just tell him, hey, so are doors at Life After Hate are always open if you want to talk?

Brad 28:43

That's my line of lines. anytime there's ah, the damn Jews, I'm like, anyways, www. lifeafterhate. org,

Samantha 28:52

There's a contact us button. It's right up there. if your fucking uncle has the guts to say something like that publicly, you have every right to say something back I do love that the right does this whole, freedom of speech, I should be able to say anything and it's like, then, you do know people will say things back, right? that's not freedom of speech if you don't mean it for everyone.

Lauren 29:11

Yeah, you don't get freedom of consequences on top of it.

Samantha 29:14

What do you do if a family member, does share your old views? if someone does share your old beliefs and they're kind of challenging you on it, to see if you still harbor any of those feelings, how would you handle that?

Lauren 29:28

You know, actually, maybe it could be comparable to the situation I went through for the longest time after I quit drinking. To my knowledge, I'm one of the very few people in my family that cleaned up and actually stayed that way if anyone affected by it. the thing is, when I had to still be around people that were drug or alcohol addicted, it was still awkward being around them, yes, and I could still converse with them, however, there had to be some pretty firm boundaries there. I would say, Listen, I'm done with that, I'm not about that anymore. Come back to me if you want to have a real conversation about this.

Samantha 30:00

Yeah. Or even just taking that topic off the table. I feel like you can just kind of be like, listen, I don't agree with that. it's clear that you're not open to hearing it or until you're open to changing your mind. We're not going to talk about that. We can talk about video games or weed or, whatever other stuff. Brad, have you ever come across that where someone was kind of like testing you

Brad 30:21

there was this time I was sitting in a barbecue with some new people in my life that they're not in the movement or anything, but they're sitting there and they're yeah, yeah, man. fuck Trudeau. And I'm like, these guys are soft opener here. they want to me hate my prime minister with them. I don't really want to know why, I can only guess, but they, they were like, well, you know, he's ruined our economy, and now, people that look like us don't have the same chances, I'm like, cool, great replacement, where'd you guys learn that, and they're like, uh, that's not what it is, I'm well, I mean, uh, yes

Samantha 30:59

yeah,

Brad 31:01

I think what I was trying to allude to is you go around these corners with these guys, there is a way to converse with them. So after that bit where I was like pointing out those things, they wanted to talk about how, the working man has got it down and I see where this is all going like I've been in these conversations with dudes in the movement. I asked them, where is this thought process taking you to though, what's the end of this, they were like, oh, we're going to vote conservative Awesome. Cause I didn't really want to hear the other.

Samantha 31:29

Yeah, if that's where it ends, cool. Like, that's, that's fine.

Brad 31:33

cool. You're going to go vote. Awesome.

Lauren 31:35

Yeah, that's the civilized, people's way of doing things.

Samantha 31:38

there's also a conversation of What if someone who doesn't look like you does get a job? is that really such a bad thing? But, that could definitely open up some stuff that you don't always want to talk about.

Brad 31:50

We haven't hung out much since that day. don't know why.

Samantha 31:54

I had a boss that was supportive of me and all that stuff, but every once in a while they would say something either racist or sexist or whatever. And I kind of give them a look of that's not cool. you can't just say shit like that. And they'd be like, yeah, well, you were a Nazi. what I'm saying isn't that bad. they kind of had this, well, what you did was worse. So I can excuse what I'm saying now. Or, I might be this, but at least I'm not a Nazi has that ever happened to you? And what do you do when that happens? Cause sometimes it's such a surprise to me that I kind of freeze and don't know what to say.

Lauren 32:30

actually, yes, I have had that happen before, a small handful of times, but it has happened before, and for me, I would typically ask, why are you comparing yourself to me?

Samantha 32:40

I can't even remember what I said at the time. that's, that's not cool. Or like, that's fucked up, you know, and just left it at that. Like, I'm not that person anymore. Why are you implying to me that you are the same as that? I don't know. Has anything like that happened to you, Brad?

Brad 32:54

sort of, I think. there's always this sort of this torch that people think that they need to wield. it's almost like there are people who are doing it to satisfy their own, Ideas that people can't change. I get those people a lot. I actually had a very strange dream the other night that was kind of like this it was me giving a talk somewhere and a jewish woman stood up and was like You can't change you know, Nazis are for life, right? I believe that dream was just representative of the reality that we live as, as formers a lot of the time is like people don't and it's okay. There are going to be some people who are like,

Samantha 33:31

Yeah. I don't believe it. Yeah.

Brad 33:33

And, so they test you. they'll throw out Yeah, so what do you think of them trans people? I've had people do that, I find it easier to deflect things than maybe other people, because we put up with it a lot. those test things, they can come in different shapes and forms. there are definitely people who show up at conferences and legitimately, they believe that, formers are still garbage people, and, you're open to your interpretation of what people who have these lived experiences are. we're not here to tell you, you must think a certain way. We're just, we're just saying that this is a lived experience. I know there's been some times that have resonated with me where people were pretty uncertain about it. And they'll tell me like a story, one that resonates with me a lot is the one where this Jewish fella, was telling me about his mother who still sits with luggage underneath her bed, because she thinks the Nazis are going to come back at some point and. I don't think he was testing me, but I think he was seeing if I had the compassion that I was talking about that I had, and the feeling that I had inside of me when he was telling me that was, I'm really not that bad person anymore because I, like, I wanted to cry simultaneously with running away and hiding myself

Samantha 34:47

that's so sad and harrowing. And then also I don't think people realize that, when we hear, or at least when I hear stuff like that, I won't speak for you guys. I will have to take a few seconds. Every time I hear something like that, I'm like, I cannot believe. That I approved of that, that was once a thought that I had where I was like, that's fine.

Brad 35:04

Yeah,

Lauren 35:05

actually, I feel like that Jewish guy would have never told you if he wasn't comfortable with you.

Brad 35:10

yeah, which is good. And I think we had a dialogue that was positive that day. But I think he was also trying to bring a flavor to my life that people are still suffering because of Nazis. And we should know that. all three of us should know that that there are people out there suffering because of the movements that we were in and of course, due to actual real World War Two Nazis, there are people that are still in this world right now who are fucking experiencing that level of shit, which I can't even imagine what that would be like.

Samantha 35:44

when you are talking to people as you are now and with the beliefs that you have now, how long did it take? It took me a little while. I don't know if you guys experienced this, but especially when I did change and I would be like, I have better ideas now, or I believe in human rights and all of this stuff. How long did it take for you? If I would meet someone new and there would be a topic that came up, let's talk about gay marriage or something like that. I would make a point to be like, I think it should only be gay it kind of took me a little while to calm down and just kind of be like, yeah, if you love someone get married, and not have to announce that I was like so progressive and so different now.

Lauren 36:22

good question, actually. I think it all depended who I was talking to at the time. I did do that before where, I felt like I was kind of, overdoing it, for me, actually, it took me a pretty short time to realize, overdoing it means that I'm not, like, fully out of that mindset yet, because who am I trying to prove a point to, the other person or myself?

Samantha 36:41

Yeah, absolutely. it's seeking approval and affirmation, like, You're going to tell me I'm a good person if I spout this ideology to you

Lauren 36:49

You know what, though? nowadays I typically only share my opinions on things, if I'm asked.

Samantha 36:55

Yeah.

Lauren 36:56

Because most of the time, I figured out my opinion does not need to be in this conversation.

Samantha 37:01

Well, I don't know if you had the same thing in the fucking movement, but like everyone in the movement also thought their opinion needed to be heard at all times. And I just got so sick of it that I just don't even want to have opinions about anything. I'm so over it. Brad, did you have any of that? What were you kind of like? sought approval from family and friends and did it take you some time to feel confident in who you are and not have to like, see I'm not that anymore.

Brad 37:29

Yeah, it's not as much for me, but see, I'm not that anymore. It was more like, Hey, I'm an actual person. I went back to university in my 30s, shortly after I left that was quite helpful for being able to, learn to talk normally again, learn to, engage in conversations with people that aren't trying to enrage the other person or trying to out one up like I found that in the movement. It was always like, yeah, but listen to this shit. It's more important than the shit that you just said, because it's my opinion

Samantha 38:14

thank you guys for talking and we'll do this again soon. Bye y'all.