The Daily Dose- Buffalo Shooter/Capital Punishment

This conversation is about capital punishment and who deserves it. What does it do for us, if anything?


SOURCE:
https://apnews.com/article/buffalo-supermarket-shooting-death-penalty-b6ab8eda541c2c0a0b512a89b0471b91

www.thedailyformer.com

Transcript

Samantha 0:12

Welcome to the daily dose, a bite sized episode of the daily former, a podcast about how the far right doesn't need to be the rest or the end of your life. I'm Sam. I'm here with Angela, Brad, and Lauren, And we're going to talk about the death penalty, and how it pertains to the far right, to terrorism, and the Buffalo shooter. Angela, do you want to take it away and kind of give us a little one two as to what we're going to be discussing?

Angela 0:38

Sure. I caught an article on the AP about prosecutors seeking the death penalty for the Buffalo supermarket shooter that killed 10. He has already been sentenced to a life sentence in the state. they're gonna be bringing new federal charges against him that are around hate crime, and it looks like they're going to seek the death penalty and it's the Biden administration's first time actually doing this in this kind of case. myself personally really torn on the issue and I would love to chat with everybody

Brad 1:14

I think just to hone in on the charges it was one of the first times that a far right guy was being charged with domestic terrorist offenses, which is a pretty monolithic thing for the United States because. Usually that's reserved for not white folks in the past at least. So this is definitely a different thing. And I'm very torn as you are too, Angela, this is a huge thing. In Canada, we're not really setting a very good example at all about how criminal justice works for far right people that are charged with severe things. But I know I'm torn about Life and who gets to take it away and who gets to keep it.

Samantha 1:50

a quick reference does anyone remember what happened with Timothy McVeigh? Cause he got the death sentence too, but was it for domestic terrorism? Or hate crime, or do we know what his charges were from? is there a precedent for this?

Angela 2:03

was murder, conspiracy, and using a weapon of mass destruction, according to the internet.

Samantha 2:10

Thanks internet. I do find it interesting that charges and punishment or consequences seem to be getting more and more severe as time goes on That's been very interesting to watch. And for this, I do find it interesting that on a state level, he's already been convicted and sentenced, but now federally, they're like, you know what, let's do more.

Angela 2:30

You know what? One of the many things I find interesting about this is that in our space, in our niche area, we have shifted to a public health approach to addressing these things. And We've realized we can't charge our way out of it. We can't incarcerate our way out of it. These things continue to happen and I feel like this is a short term band aid to make an example, now you're going to toss in the death penalty like a cherry on top. Who's it serving? is it serving a public image crisis? Is it serving a we don't know what we're doing crisis? Like, what are they serving? And I want to just share a little from the article. Because I don't believe in killing people for killing people, it's just a weird thing for me and I know people have their things about it, but they specifically are seeking the death penalty because of the length of time he prepared for this attack, for the location he chose where he Specifically drove over 200 miles to target as many people of color as he could, and that is what they're citing for pursuing the death penalty. And I understand that cognitively, my brain wraps right around it, but. Spiritually, I can't even find a center for myself on this. Are we going to turn in the direction of we ignored white supremacists for so long, but now, if they do this, they're all getting the death penalty. Like, how is that gonna trinkle down? And set precedence for other cases,

Samantha 4:19

Yeah. And also if you're going to say that they are seeking death penalty because of the amount of time that they, prepared and all of that stuff, does that incentivize people to be like, okay, well, if I spend time planning it, then I'll get the death penalty, but if I don't, I just happen to have a gun and, you know, racial hatred, then I can go and do this.

Brad 4:41

I think planned and deliberate has always been a thing in law. Like I'm not a lawyer, but I have a criminology background. So I know a little bit about how they formulate these things as they're going along in a case. I get why they might want to Say, this is how this guy planned. And this is the length of time it took, but I'm honestly wondering what about all these other mass murder cases that, of course, these people planned, they had a bunch of guns, they Got a vehicle all of that could be time planned So, how are we managing this like in which teeter totter thing? Are we on here? Like this is gonna set a weird precedent for it. I don't like it I think it's a performance really and I heard someone else say this, not my words, a person of color who said this, the white saviorism that's going on in this thing, because our Supreme Court in the United States, our court system, our criminal justice system is very white. So, now we're saving the black people with by sentencing these guys to death. Right? does he deserve a death sentence as a, as a kid, as a young person, like, he's still a very young person, this shooter in this case, and many of them are very young people, so, who's deciding that, that that's the right scenario, it's not like they're even talking about the victims, they're just saying, punitively, this is a death penalty thing, because of length of time, I'm like, Really? that's how we're going about this? And we have to accept that. Black and brown members of community that were affected by this what are their thoughts about this? About this criminal justice system making the decisions for their communities

Lauren 6:17

you know, it's interesting. I remember watching the video of this trial, the 1 before this 1 about this individual and I believe it was 1 of the victims family members who brought this up. They were concerned that if he got the death penalty, that would make a martyr out of him. So that could do a lot more harm than good.

Samantha 6:33

Yeah, but if he's spending the rest of his life in prison, what, what difference does it make? Whether he's breathing, like if he's not going to be on the streets, if he's not going to be in society, what difference does it make if he's alive or not?

Lauren 6:46

I think that's a good question. And actually, I was going to add into that I, unsurprisingly to you all, used to be super pro death penalty until I read about all the cases of individuals who were actually found innocent after they were executed. So that's what changed my mind on it.

Samantha 7:03

Something tells me this guy's not going to be found innocent.

Lauren 7:05

no, this guy is not innocent. However, I do have to question, what are we actually doing here?

Angela 7:11

Yes. as Brad was saying, I think this quote that I finally found is going to speak greatly to what you said about the white saviorism, and who's making these decisions. In this AP article, speaking to a relative of the victim, the relative said, it would have satisfied me more knowing he would have spent the rest of his life in prison being surrounded by the population of people he tried to kill. And, like, that's, that's where I'm at. Like, you're just gonna kill them and let them off that easy, to me, that's the easy way out. You ain't gotta face shit. You don't gotta think about it. You don't have to, you know, live your life as a consequence of your actions.

Brad 7:56

and now he's celebrated now He'll be celebrated as we know of the martyrs of past Rudolf Hess all these people that get celebrated by these right wing extremists Folks I don't know. I don't want to hear about another one. what are they calling them Saints nowadays? I don't want to hear about that guy till the end of time I actually think that prison in the United States is actually not an easy place for a young guy like this, so I think that that would be probably worse than yeah, just getting the easy way out and having his life ended. He doesn't even look like a type that would really be accepted to the white prison gang. population. I mean, depending on what type of membership we're talking about. Not that you want people to go through that, but he's obviously created an aura of tragic, disgusting violence in the community. I mean, there has to be something, but I don't think it's death. Then again, I don't agree with the death penalty.

Angela 8:56

not stir up shit, but I observe us talking about white saviorism, but then tossing out what we think should happen. I want to hear from black communities, you know, like, what is going to create healing? what can we do to support that healing? I agree with you, Brad, on I don't think enough of that is happening. it's not about the victims, it's about Making a public statement. The other part of the quote was that they cited the substantial planning that went into the shooting, including the choice of location, which meant to maximize the number of black victims. That's as close as they got to. Well, this is why we did that.

Samantha 9:39

If this weren't racially motivated, like if this person just went on a killing spree, and they were seeking the death penalty, would we be questioning it?

Angela 9:48

I do, cause that's not my go to solution for things like this. I see more suffering and spending an entire life in prison. I'm not thinking of it even in a vindictive way, but what is justice? how do you pay for this? forfeiting your life is one and done and there's no time for reflection. There's no time for learning there. and I'm not saying this dude is ever going to become one of us, get out of prison and be like, Oh, I'm good now. it's not going to happen like that. But. Yeah, I question the death penalty quite often, and the lack of really paying any respect to victims in the media and how these kind of events are portrayed in the media, it's one of the things that burns my ass, like, on the daily like a pet peeve, I would say.

Brad 10:44

so I just want to flip this for a sec. if this shooter was a 18 year old black male went into an Earl's and killed a whole bunch of white ladies, would there have even been a question at any point in time if this was the death penalty?

Samantha 11:01

regardless of age, they would have been tried as an adult, regardless of motivation, it would have been terrorism and blah, blah, blah. And I

Brad 11:08

like right away, like it wouldn't even, been a conversation right now.

Samantha 11:12

and I think when we talk about the death penalty and exoneration like it is one thing when it's circumstantial evidence and there's speculation that this one person did it that does happen false convictions happen obviously But we all know there's no denying that this person did it. There's no, like, maybe he's innocent. He's not. And he's not getting out of prison he should not get out of prison. And I, I don't know, I, I am really torn about it. I feel like in a situation like this, it's not that I welcome the death penalty, but you get what you earn, kid. Like, this murderer. Is so beyond the pale, I have a hard time even considering that human if you're that kind of evil. If you go that far out of your way to create as many victims of cul like, you're just trying to murder black people that you've done all this, like, I get it, we want them to suffer but I also don't want a white fucking white supremacist terrorizing black prisoners that could actually be exonerated for things. I don't want to put the burden on fucking anybody. I don't know when it comes to things like this, when someone outright says, yes, I did it. these are my plans. And I wanted as many victims as I could. Nah, man, you're a victim of your own, actions. Be done with it.

Lauren 12:30

Well, and did anyone also notice in his statements there wasn't a shred of remorse or empathy for anybody else? he was very matter of fact when he was talking about his planning.

Brad 12:40

is quite clear too. I believe it was like 180 pages of this nonsense, right? So I don't think he had any, reeling thoughts like, ooh, should I not kill these people? No, he was straight up killer.

Samantha 12:52

you know that if this person did by any chance get out or escaped or they were like, for whatever reason, we're going to try and rehabilitate or make them a mandated client. I truly believe this person would kill again. Like, obviously. And they would, they would find another city and, another, place with a high black population or, maybe another race that they've decided they want to terminate. I just don't have, I don't, I don't have it for this kind of stuff.

Brad 13:22

it's similar to me for school shooters. Unrelated to terrorism or extremism, a person who's motivated to kill seven year old kids. I mean, not that one life is more valuable than another, but like You're going into a preschool and you're shooting up kids what do you do with that person? Is that person really Now, I'm strongly against the death penalty, but I think situationally or individually, we can look at these cases and think about them in the sense of what you're saying, Sam, about like, do we really want people who are just trying to serve their time in a federal institution? to be around this guy. What if he decides to kill more black people or more brown people? it's not really a, what if it's a, when? Cause if he knows he's getting the, death penalty, I believe it's probably he'll reoffend in there. Why not? Like, why wouldn't you

Samantha 14:14

Yeah. What, what incentive is there not to? and if he knows that he's going to be martyred by, the white nationalists or the quote unquote identitarians or whatever like that, why wouldn't he go into prison and do more

Brad 14:26

I guess it depends where they put them. They could put them in Florence, like super max and just hide them there until the end of time or whatever.

Angela 14:34

advocate for a minute and place a bet. I would bet that dude does not go into general population federal. Trump's state level. So he'll be in a federal prison where he'll be in a protected unit or in the shoe special housing unit. So he probably is not going to have access to other inmates. And at the same time, tell me that. Black people aren't going to be trying to get up on his ass and take him out like as much as we could make the case for what if he goes in there and tries to do more. I don't think that dude is stepping out anywhere But also. I want to toss in that letting him have life is not just for, like, let him pay, and feel the pain, but also, he's kind of put himself up as, a guinea pig at this point. We could learn from him. There may be a time when he does become remorseful. There may be a time when he does see the error of his ways, and we're able to have conversations with him about his motivation, about his planning, about all kinds of, different elements of the crime. But also, if the government put in. As much effort to have common sense gun laws to not make it so easy for kids like him, and I say kid purposely because dude's 20, he's a kid still. If social media had, better guidelines around violent rhetoric, around hate speech, I would say the resources to kill them are better spent. Trying to fix the things that were breadcrumbs for him on this path. Because I believe, I would have to look it up right now, but I believe it's less expensive for someone to spend life in prison than it is to kill them. So if we're looking financially, I would have to double check and see if it's like that, make sure I know what I'm talking about. But Those kind of things I take into account, but I have to divorce myself personally and emotionally from it to try to view it through those lenses.

Samantha 16:44

I would also just like to take the time and make the observation or note that like, as you said, He's just a kid. If this were a black man, they would call him an adult. He would not get the benefit of the doubt. And I just want to put that out there that I. I agree with you that like he's not fully developed and all of those things, but if he spent this much time planning, he had many opportunities to say, you know what? I shouldn't do this. You know what? I shouldn't do this. Maybe this is a bad idea. And I just, I don't really have too much sympathy for someone that goes that far out of their way and for that long. When they've seen other shootings, they've seen other, mass violence, and they see consequences of that and they were still like, you know what? Me too. I'm going to do this too.

Angela 17:37

is absolutely true that if it was a person of color that committed this type of crime there's usually not a second thought. And this, was one of the things that I studied. In graduate school, the inequality in the criminal justice system, people of color are judged much more harshly than white people. They get longer sentences. with the same crime. You know, it could be burglary, burglary, but the black man will get a longer, steeper sentence than the white dude. So that. is a no question for me. How do we change this narrative? what do we say, what do we do to get these changes actually in motion, to recognize these things publicly, that, you know, when we go to vote, we can say, hey, I'd like more fair ground for all of us than just to slide it this way continuously.

Brad 18:33

We have to say that the criminal justice system creates its own white supremacy though, because What it's doing is by the way that, you know black and brown people and indigenous people are, experiencing the criminal justice system with longer sentences and all that kind of stuff, all it's doing is, providing that weight for white supremacist groups to go look, see, prisons are filled with black people Like I think it's one of the highest rates. I think right now. black people in the United States, like 14 percent of the overall population, but they're like, 80 way up there in prison population. we need to take a critical lens and change things from the top down though in the criminal justice system things need to change and there's got to be changes in the government level to who's making the laws out there, right? it's not a fair criminal justice system whatsoever at this point. I mean, it's more surprising that there's so many conversations about the death penalty in this case, in America. Because if it was anyone else, like you said, there wouldn't be these discussions. It would auto adult, auto death penalty.

Samantha 19:36

to interrupt and also to kind of, I guess, bring up another question. like Brad said, it's clearly performance or pageantry to like prove a point or to do whatever. Is this actually going to work as a deterrent for the far right? Because Timothy McVeigh was killed Dylan Roof, I think. Did he get the death penalty? I don't know, but there are plenty of people that have gotten the death penalty that have been linked to the far right or white supremacy or, or whatever. And they're just Martyrs. They're, they're, you know, St. Rufe, Timothy McVeigh they're gonna give him a statue in the Anthony estate. Like, I don't see this as working.

Lauren 20:13

Well, the other thing is how the perpetrator is presented in the media, because it's even more incentive if you're going to end up on the cover of Rolling Stone magazine, let's say.

Samantha 20:23

I also wonder, like, I saw a comment on something from, for either Life After Hate or for TDF or something, where someone mentioned us, and they were like, No, even if they leave the movement, put them on trial for anti semitism or something and execute them, blah, blah, blah, like, to my knowledge, none of us have committed murders, so like, where is the line from the, from our perspective what is past the point? Of redemption. if he did show remorse and he said, Oh my God, what have I done? Would we be having this conversation? Would we be advocating for him? Would it matter Sorry. I have like a trillion questions.

Brad 20:56

I think in Roof's case, just to again, hit home with the weird things that happen when it's a white offender. They tried to go down the line of appealing the death sentence and it got denied But then they also tried to bring in the mental health thing. Like they were trying to Push all these different angles like all of a sudden he has mental health issues He can't just be a violent white supremacist murder. it must be something else I mean, obviously you're not okay if you're killing people, but that's besides the point I don't think that all of that crap would have been afforded If the offender was different,

Lauren 21:29

one thing that always pisses me off is how mental health is brought into the equation, and I've noticed that most of the time it's only used to avoid a conversation about gun control.

Samantha 21:39

Mental health is also only brought into the equation when it's for white offenders.

Brad 21:44

they must have something wrong with them, right?

Samantha 21:46

Yeah, When it comes to Black, Hispanic, any other race, it's always like they're a monster, they're this, they're that, they're just predisposed to violence. But when it's a white person, it is always, their dad drank a lot of beer, their mom was really negligent, someone pushed him on the swing too hard, something happened. And it's like, nah dude, some people are just bad.

Brad 22:07

can I give the ultimate example of this stuff? So right after the attack in New Zealand, on the front page of the newspaper. It said, Angelic boy kills 51. Angelic boy? what the fuck? that would be like Satanic murderer if that was a black guy,

Samantha 22:25

Yeah. And every picture would be the most unflattering, you know, there's always the attempt for white offenders. like, here's them at school. Here's their father, daughter dance or whatever. And a black offender, he's wearing a baseball jersey and has a chain. He must be a. Thug. And it's like, what the fuck? it boggles my mind when I think about those comparisons. It really is so fucking upsetting that even in the way that we cover true tragedy, abject terror, and there's still a framing to make sure that white people somehow get an advantage. It is crazy to me.

Lauren 23:00

Yeah, I think when it comes to all these things that we'll say about a white guy killing people, to me it just sounds like we're looking for a simple reason or looking for an excuse for them.

Samantha 23:11

Yeah, of course. So Do we have a line as formers of what deserves redemption and what doesn't?

Angela 23:20

I, I actually have an idea about this. I think there's a way for redemption and accountability. part of life after hate is people who are willing to be accountable for their actions. There's a path forward for them, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't spend his life on that path in prison, like there, there's nothing he could do for the families to give back what's been taken the lives that were lost, but there are things that. Could potentially be contributed that could be done from a prison cell that could be done from a prison computer lab. I think that both can happen. They're not mutually exclusive.

Lauren 24:06

Yeah, I mean, I just have to think he'll have plenty of time in jail to think about this if he wants to think about this.

Samantha 24:12

yeah, that's fair. if there's someone listening to this that's, thinking about doing something extremely not cool or wondering about all of it, I kind of just want to say that when people stay in the movement or get wrapped up in the movement, this is where they end up. They end up in prison or they end up dead. And sometimes both in this guy's case. And I think that is worth reflecting on. You can leave until you pull the trigger until you leave your house and you're on your way to them. You can say no, you can realize this is a bad idea. I just kind of wanted to put that out there just in case. Until you commit the crime, you have not committed that crime. is there anything we want to end on or is there anything else that we want to add on this?

Angela 25:00

I wanted to add a little about the mental health aspect. It really has been used as a Tricksy tool to, blanket explain why this happens and poor white people, why they deserve the pity, but at the same time, data is starting to show that a lot of us involved a lot of us that have gotten out. suffered trauma. we did have. Issues, but that's not a blanket to explain everyone who becomes involved. It's we see a little bit of a theme here, but that doesn't peg it for everybody. So, that also is a factor, but it's not the only factor.

Samantha 25:45

Yeah, there are plenty of people that have trauma and mental health issues that don't become

Brad 25:49

most.

Samantha 25:50

white supremacist like. Yeah,

Brad 25:54

the majority of people who have schizophrenia still don't go out and do a mass shooting, right? it's doesn't quite work like that. I think the mental health phenomenon is interesting in the sense of, again, can get help, you can leave these movements. And organizations like ours, and a shameful plug for OPV as well, you can get the help, you can get the resources, you can get help leaving the movement from organizations like ours, like, it's possible to do that, you don't have to do the violence, the violence is not The necessary end game. Prison or death. I mean, that's what I, I used to hear in the days in the movement. That's what they talk about. They'd be like, yeah, man, I'm a lifer. Well, that you'd be talking about doing the rest of your life in jail or being dead. there is a time where I felt like, you know, when I was 20, if I made 25, that would be, probably the biggest feat.

Angela 26:49

right.

Samantha 26:50

yeah.

Brad 26:52

and because I've left you get an extra 20 years on that, right? I hear these people that we're helping too, so I just want to reiterate that there is a ways out before that violence, before you succumb to your mental health issues, there's help.

Lauren 27:07

And, you know, like, on a positive note, many of the people who I have served before, I've heard this several of them say, Oh, cool. I have other choices. And, you should see the enthusiasm in their voice once they figure that out.

Samantha 27:21

Yeah that's such a good point. The movement really does make you feel like, I'll never forget that feeling. I remember thinking out loud to myself, I have all of this information, what am I going to do with it? And the movement wants to motivate you and inspire you to commit these acts of violence. They'll speak carefully and make themselves a loophole so that they can't be held legally responsible, but they will absolutely infect your brain and put in as much Poison as possible so that you are the one carrying the gun that they inspired you to buy. And I just think it's, it's really worth noting that again, until you commit the crime, you are not a criminal. If you have bad thoughts, you can absolutely just be like, you know what? Fuck this. I'll find something else. And I don't know, go to like an axe throwing thing or call us and we can bullshit with you. this is going to keep happening and it's going to continue getting worse. And this person they're making an example of might have to die so that the far right can lionize him and then keep fucking going. it's not going to do what they think it's going to do.

Angela 28:25

You know, I was thinking that if anybody really is listening to us. that wants to do something like this. I have been searching and searching within myself. Like what what could I possibly say to make a change or a difference in that? And I think what it comes down to for me is. Ask yourself who you're doing it for, for real, and, be open to what that true answer is, because if you're going to shoot up elementary school kids for the movement, you're going to shoot up grocery store shoppers for the movement, the movement's not gonna do shit for you. and who are you really doing it for? is it for attention? You need attention, but you're gonna either Have your life ended for you or spend the rest of it in prison with, Some clowns that may write to you every once in a while, are the consequences and repercussions worth? What you think you're doing it for

Lauren 29:26

And also, just to add something onto that whoever the individual is who might be thinking about doing this, you will not be supported by your old friends when you're behind bars, the ones from the movement.

Samantha 29:38

Yeah. You're not a soldier for Rohoa. You're not a, a white martyr. I hate to be so harsh about it, but you're falling for it. You fell for the trap. these are supposed to be very short episodes. but I'm like, I don't know. I kind of really liked this that we actually unpacked this in real time with each other.

Lauren 29:55

I think it's nice, actually, that it's a very nuanced subject, and not everybody fully agrees on it. That's probably why it went so long, but I thought it was good.

Samantha 30:04

it's not like we all went to the same anti Nazi school and we have the same anti Nazi beliefs now, it's like, yeah, fuck fascism, but like,

Lauren 30:11

it's also good to show people, hey, guess what? We can all have different opinions. It's cool to say them out loud. And we can do it in a respectful fashion.

Samantha 30:19

yeah, we're not in the far right anymore, we're allowed to think for ourselves.

Brad 30:21

I think we should have a follow up episode Because I know we've mentioned a bunch of different responses in passing, so what should we do about it? What should we do about white supremacist mass murders? Is it more public outreach stuff? this was really cool to see how, we're talking about death penalty for white supremacist mass shooter. Maybe we talk about, how do we respond to this stuff?

Samantha 30:48

I think this is something worth keeping tabs on. as this unravels, I think we should absolutely keep talking about it and how it relates to us, our work, the far right as a whole.

Angela 30:58

if we don't unpack this shit, who will

Samantha 31:01

honestly. well, thank you guys for talking. we'll talk soon

Angela 31:05

Thanks.