Matt Chambers: The Philosopher of Motorcycling

Andrea Hiott talks with Matt Chambers, CEO of Curtiss Motorcycles. They discuss the company's shift from internal combustion engine (ICE) motorcycles to light electric vehicles (LEVs), with the focus on creating unique timeless designs. Matt emphasizes the philosophy of their designs offering a sensory experience with emphasis on quality, attention to details and sustainability. He also touches upon concepts such as 'letting go of control' while on a motorcycle, navigating 'negative space', and the shift toward a culture of 'thinking small' and sustainability. His vision is to create a motorcycle for every person - a vehicle that they do not have to replace regularly but can continue to use and enjoy due to its quality and design.

Together they reimagine Hunter S. Thompson, edges, electricity and ecology--looking at the connections between meaning, desire and motorcycling.

Albert Camus the Rebel

A primary inspiration he mentions is Virgil Exner

1957 Chysler, memoralized in the movie Christine.

The Curtiss 1 and working with JT Nesbitt

"Part of being free is realizing there is no certainty."

"Desire can't exist without authenticity."

What Matt regrets about his relationship with Pierre Terblanche.

Fewer bigger pulses or more smaller pulses?

Matt's idea of Negative Space: dealing with ambiguity.

Hunter S. Thompson wanting to ride one of Matt's bikes: "the only one who knows where the edge is is the person who has gone over it."

His Glenn Curtiss inspired new electric motorcycle company.

Rejecting escapism and growing up.

ee cummings quote: “To be nobody but yourself in a world
which is doing its best day and night to make you like
everybody else means to fight the hardest battle
which any human being can fight and never stop fighting.”

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Transcript

Andrea: 0:06

Hey, everyone. Welcome to forever motoring. I'm so glad you're here. This podcast is about what moves us and the ways we move. It's all about forms of motoring from diesel to electric, from bikes to planes. But it's also about the bigger issues around what motoring means in our lives and communities. And how it changes us and how it has to change. To kickstart the show I'm interviewing Matt Chambers. The founder and CEO of Curtiss motorcycles. I've known Matt for a long time. And we've had some pretty intense philosophical discussions. Not always agreeing, but always respectful. And I say that because it's part of how this podcast and our collaboration was born. I sometimes think of Matt as the philosopher of motorcycles. He often quotes the French philosopher Camus author of books, like The Rebel and the Myth of Sisyphus. And as you'll hear, he was also inspired by the journalist Hunter S. Thompson. A name you might know from movies, like Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas or the Rum Diaries. Hunter S. Thompson was a motorcyclist and a journalist who pushed the edges of writing. But he also pushed the edges of his own sanity and health and as you'll hear his inspiration was almost tragic for Matt and maybe not a healthy thing. If you add someone like the poet E.E. Cummings to the mix, you start getting closer to Matt's form of communication. He tends to think pretty deeply about everything, but he also really likes to make things. He's been building motorcycles now for over 30 years. He was a successful trial lawyer, but then he just gave it all up in the nineties to start making motorcycles./ He's always been moved by many different forms of motoring. As you'll hear Matt talk about, he remembers being a little kid, sitting and riding in the back of his dad's car at night. Amazed by the lights on the dashboard and the world flowing by outside. His company was called Confederate at first and now it's called Curtis. They once built internal combustion engine motorcycles, incredible motorcycles that you've probably seen in movies, maybe even in art shows. They're extraordinary bikes as is the new Curtiss One, which we mention a few times in the podcast, designed by J.T. Nesbit. Curtiss went into the electric motorcycle business. a few years back. And as you can imagine, there are many things to talk about in that regard. As there is to talk about the name change that came along with it. We won't get into all that quite yet, though we will, as the podcasts progress. I also want to give you a heads up that sometimes we say the names of people a little too quickly, because we're both familiar with them names like J.T. Nesbitt, for example, the artist and designer behind the new Curtis One. We also talk about Pierre Terblanche a person I hope will come on the podcast at some point as he and Matt also had quite an interesting relationship. So I'm just teasing you a bit with what's possible to come. But I also want to point out that you can find all these names and links to their work in the show notes. So those of you who already know more about motorcycles than I do can just skip that part uh, either way, it's not anything you really need to know to listen to the podcast. Just dive in and let's start this journey together. Enjoy.//Welcome to Forever motoring. Good to see you

Matt: 3:39

hey Andrea Good morning.

Andrea: 3:40

This podcast is about what moves us. So I want to start with this question. What's a moment in your life that you remember being moved?

Matt: 3:49

So, okay. So it's this it's this balmy Halloween night in 1967. And we're at a state fair and my, my, my best friend had a one 60, a black, 160 Scrambler Honda, and he was letting folks ride it around the fairgrounds. And there were all sorts of pretty little girls around from different schools and stuff and I had my goofy leather jacket and, you know, thinking I was really cool. And when I got in my turn just rolling around that, that, place called Prairieville, right outside of Baton Rouge toward New Orleans. The atmospherics of it, uh, the sense of it, the feeling, I had of, of rolling around on the power of the 160 in front of these, these charming young people-- that just seemed bigger than life itself. So that was a huge, uh, a huge moment for me. Another moment might be there, there was a time when my dad--and I was really young-- but my dad had a, he had a 55 Plymouth and then, then there was this 57 that he took me for a ride in, and we ultimately didn't buy it. But these were the Virgil Exner cars, who's one of my very favorite, designers. And uh, The, the 57, this, it was a suddenly, it's 1960 Chrysler campaign, but the, the 57, this car is memorialized in the movie Christine, and it has this glorious, kind of oval-shaped, uh, speedo and it lit up green and it almost seemed kind of evil. I mean, we, I remember being in the back seat and we were riding in that car at night and just looking at that dashboard, I've always been really moved, by the dashboard lighting, particularly in that era when I think it was a little more special than it is today

Andrea: 5:39

these are very sensory experiences for you. Is there something different about motoring that's heightens your senses do you think?

Matt: 5:48

I know it does. I mean, I've had some of the best ideas of my life have been, you know, when I'm rolling you know, rolling down a highway. It just, I, I think that the sense of rolling for humanity is, uh, something that's, uh, that's always been e extremely, illuminating for us. Going back to the invention of the wheel and being able to roll and getting in a vehicle or getting in a buggy with a horse pulling it. I think rolling is extremely extremely clarifying.

Andrea: 6:19

Does it change the way you think, change the way you feel even now?

Matt: 6:24

I think what motoring my, my 2 cents about motoring about and the idea of the forever nature of it, trying to capture the forever nature of it, these things that I just mentioned will always be with me. Those two, those two memories, uh, I, I think it's about negative space. I think it comes down to, to what, to what the real kind of core struggle for us all is. And that is that, that, that is dealing with ambiguity. Yeah. And may, maybe this is even more prescient for today's time but the, the fundamentally, there is no certitude in the world. I could die right now. I'm, I'm old would be like, okay, die. So what, I mean, people die. We all do,

Andrea: 7:13

there would be consequences for many people other than, other than you, you're part of a larger system, larger family.

Matt: 7:22

Yeah. But irrespective of that, I mean, and, and maybe it would be, maybe it would be better sometimes, you know, when, when I lost my dad, I think it, I think it, it made me better. It clarified things for me. It it was the biggest loss I've ever had. And it was also it was also a moment where I had a chance of, of, uh, using it for good or, or, you know, using it as a, as an excuse to play the victim. People die when they're supposed to die. I mean, it's all about everything happens for the right reason. But the point that I'm getting to is that we, at some level of humanity wants to grab hold of planet Earth and stop it from spinning and take the point of view that I know what to do. And, and if, and if you were God, that'd be great, the ideal of God is he is all knowing. He knows exactly what to do. He knows the future. He knows the past. He knows what's gonna happen in advance. So if he said, I'm gonna stop the world from spinning, presumably he could do it, and maybe that would be a good thing. He could cure all the problems. But that's not the way he created this, this space, he didn't create this space for him to step in and do everything for us. He gave us a chance to do our own thing, to be free and freedom, part of freedom is to, is to embrace the fact that there is no certainty in the world at all.

Andrea: 8:33

Don't you think this also relates to motoring in a way? It's true. There's no certainty. Everything's always changing. We have no idea what's gonna happen. It seems especially potent right now that this is true. But we try to control things, don't we? And isn't this what motoring is too, this kind of controlled explosion the ICE, the internal combustion engine the steering, the drive, everything about it is in some way trying to, um, kind of harness something that, like you're saying is, is unpredictable

Matt: 8:59

look, look, control is, is critical. The question is, why do, why do, why does humanity wanna control others? I don't wanna control anybody. I don't control anybody. I'm, I, I, I make suggestions to people. Then I pull back and then I see what they're gonna do, because they're gonna do what they gotta do. Man, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm not a work order guy. I'm not a manager. I'm just a person trying to, trying to create a result. My better way is a world where nobody even wants to ever control anything. I mean anybody. everybody controls themself. I, I can't even control myself.

Andrea: 9:37

But you're saying you, you actually, have some kind of trust that if you let people explore themselves in a certain way, that it's gonna go, go the right way? Is there some kind of faith to this or, or is it that you so want to be in control that you instead just release it completely?

Matt: 9:56

I don't wanna be in control. My ideal is that all of the proper results for humanity to last forever to be sustainable, exist within the minds of all of humanity. And what we need to do is tap into each person's individual contribution, but we need to, we need to be nurturing people, illuminating and clarifying their lives so they can find what it is they're supposed to do. When they do find what it is, and then they get out and do it, then, then, our problems will be resolved from the bottom up, not from some all-knowing person at some high level, making rules for everybody. That's just, that's just somebody that wants to have power, over other people. So he can more or less, take more than his share, get more than what maybe he should have. I don't know. I, I, I, I don't understand that way of thinking. I have a simple goal. I want to create ultimate objects of desire for people who basically don't have to compromise. Who can have anything they want. So it is gonna be expensive. So when in, in the creative process that I work in, I choose the best and fondest result to go for it with everything I got, assembling the best, the, the, the, the best people. Only one time in my life if I worked with a creative guy that, that and I just figured this out about a decade too late. But, uh, you know, where, where I didn't give him exactly what he wanted and, and now I think it was a mistake and I've been blaming him.

Andrea: 11:34

Who was that?

Matt: 11:34

That was Pierre he wanted to do this Italian bike. He came in and he, I wanted him to make an American version. Like I wanted to take him and plug him into, I, I wanted him to make this soup. I wanted him to Americanize himself, you know, south African worked at Volkswagen, then Ducati then he came to us and.

Andrea: 11:52

(Pierre Terblanche just to say his name again.)

Matt: 11:55

But, but what he did is it was a, it was a great looking bike. It was a, it was an American, it was our power plant, but it looked kind of like a Ducati on top of it. And it was cool. And, and I was like, no, man, that's not a real, that's off brand. And, and I do have this sense where I, you know, I think I'm, I, I guess, I think I am a brand person. I believe that's probably my best contribution is, is context. You know, I'm, I'm convinced that desire can't exist without authenticity. So I worried that, that his, his, his design outcome would be inauthentic. But there was this hugely eclectic idea running through our ICE venture, and that runs through our company now. So I should have just embraced my eclectic nature and gone with it, I think.

Andrea: 12:41

Mm-hmm. So in that case, you were trying to control things a little bit?

Matt: 12:46

In, in that, in that case, I, I, You know, I, uh, yeah, yeah, that's it. And, and Pierre was a man that, that thought, that management had gotten in the way of all of his ideas. In a way, it was, it was antithetical to how we got together. Uh, I mean, we'll never know the outcome, but if I, if I could go back and get that one redo, I would, I would've just said thought, go ahead.

Andrea: 13:08

this does talk again about this difficulty between, control and chaos you're very passionate and you have a lot of desire to see certain things created and you don't make things happen by just laying back and letting things go. So how do you see this kind of balance? It makes me think of your early part of your life, which we should talk about a bit you were a trial lawyer before you put everything into making motorcycles. So that was back in the nineties. I wonder if there's any similarities these two. professions of yours, creating motorcycles and working with power in this way, this idea of justice and trying to argue the case for the person who's not getting a fair shot.

Matt: 13:50

Yeah. You know, my mean, my law time was, was it always about, you know, the poorest people and trying to help people that had no voice? You know, I was the opposite of someone that would've worked with the state or that would've worked for an insurance company. My, my big moment was was against a, uh, sheriff's department and I got the biggest judgment in the history at that time against a law enforcement agency in the United States from a kid that got roughed up by the cops. And that stuff happens all the time. Uh, and, uh, uh,

Andrea: 14:23

so, so in that sense, things aren't just happening the perfect way if you let them go, are they? I mean, you had to step in and, and do something

Matt: 14:30

Well, I know that that was a really good outcome, but, the, the, the fundamental thing with law is that it's, it's more rearward facing. And so you, you know, I'm happy that I had the time to study it, you're trained to look at two sides of the, of an issue. Mm-hmm. To that extent, you know, it's glorious. Uh, but, but I, you know, I, I, I, I discovered as I was involved in that and that I have a, I I think my contribution is more, uh, as someone that, that wants to be, future facing.

Andrea: 15:00

What does that mean?

Matt: 15:01

Uh, I mean, I want to, I want to create stuff I mean, I, I think the One, the Curtiss bike we've got now is, mid 21st century modern. I think it's a groundbreaking thing and it's way out in, in advanced over everything else in the marketplace. The thinking around it, the, the way that it's gonna shape the motoring of the future is gonna be profound. Uh, kind of a new golden age, if you will.

Andrea: 15:28

Let's talk about that a little bit. Because in 2000, it was 2016 right? That you decided to go from internal combustion to light electric vehicles to LEVs, the Curtis One is your first motorcycle, using this new technology called The Hex

Matt: 15:41

yeah, it's got the hex pack and the access centered power, which is what our patent's on. So it's the first, it it's the, it's a proper launch vehicle at the very top end. Hyper luxury.

Andrea: 15:53

Well, how did you get to this, creating this new technology in electric vehicles when you did internal combustion for so long, what was the shift about in, in 2016

Matt: 16:04

It was very hard. It, it was, it was weird, you know, that, going back to that, to the, to, to Terblanche./ I mean, he, he was always talking about electric and that it would be rules-based. But that wasn't really what got me off on this channel. It, it was the way that, uh, it was where we, where we were on the cycle with the ICE, there was nowhere to go. The ICE work was just getting hotter and more bombastic and harder to control and bigger and harder to use and more oxymoronic. So while, while I think as a Capstone product, I think our last real work, which was the Curtis Warhawk, a cool as hell thing. That bike, our P-51 Fighter, which is kind of its sister ship, I think those are glorious examples of the past. Something you would have in, in your living room and say now that's how it used to be. Kinda like having a 1949 television set or something. You know, they look cool, you know, with a big tube and they're real small and they're round and they have a beautiful furniture. Those things are quite lovely, but you wouldn't wanna watch one.

Andrea: 17:19

Right.

Matt: 17:21

You wouldn't get a very good screen back then the color wasn't, I don't think they had color in 49, but, but you know, it wasn't too good. And that's kind of where the ICE is There is this, there is this power pulse connection to, to the idea of consolidation of power at the top end and letting go of power and letting everyone have their own, everyone can empower himself or herself because the pulses on our bikes, you know, we, we were running 132 cubic inch motors, so that would be the equivalent of, uh, of a single cylinder motor with 66 cubic inches. Very few pulses with a, like a 80 pound flywheel. I mean, the bike is just, we're just kinda bouncing down the road. And, and, and it's, and it's interesting and it, it's, and it's fascinating and, but, uh, it's turbulent and, and it's, it's not controlled. Now, running an electric bike would ha, which has like infinite pulses to deliver similar power. It harmonizes and balances and, uh, and, and, and makes for far more beautiful control of the vehicle. All, all of a sudden, what seems like it, you know, you, you, you distribute the power much more broadly and you think, Ooh, that's gonna be chaotic. But it's the opposite of that. It's refined. All of a sudden people, uh, can focus on, on what's really going on. They can get more active in that negative space, which is really where the truth is. The truth is, none of the stories we read every day, it's, it's the things that we don't, that they, they, whoever's got all this power, the top down that we don't know about, the real stuff that's going on, the regular sort of folks don't know about I, that that could change by just spreading power, letting go, where nobody wants control. I think I'm perceived a little bit as odd. Um, in this regard, but I don't want power over people. I don't, I don't exercise power In none of my relationships and I never think about it, never think, you know, I could, I have the power over this. I'm just gonna take control of it. This bike there's so many little things that I would've done different about it that I still think would've been better now. But I let Nesbitt have his way on everything. He got everything He's still not terribly happy, you know, because, because it's, it's just the nature of creatives.

Andrea: 20:09

We're talking a lot about power and about control and who can exert it and who not, and when it's best to let it go. But then you also just brought up this idea of attention with these pulses. I really like this, where these older models, or the combustion engine, which is basically like an explosion, it's about being consumed so that you don't have to attend to things. It's like this, wild ride, right? Where you're just, you're completely sensorially in it. And, and for that reason it is exhilarating. But then this bike that you described, the electric bike with the many, many different pulses, which is then smoother and it seems almost meditative. A completely different,, relationship with attention. as transformative or maybe more transformative than these big pulses that you described. But it's a really different quality, isn't it? Do you think there's some connection there between this power and letting go of control, but also awareness and attention being an important part of it?

Matt: 21:03

Look, I, I, I believe that in the, in this Forever Rolling on Planet Earth, this idea of Forever Motoring. That the metaphor, uh, or the, maybe it's more of an analogy. When I'm on this thing and it's so demanding, it's hot, it's big, it's heavy. I've got all these controls, clutches shifting, pulses are pounding. the ICE noisy as hell. Uh, this is, this is, this is consuming of, of my attention. So, so if, if the idea is escapism, if what you want to do is escape from reality, you know, like someone who wants to go get really drunk, really high, or I just want to escape escapism. I just wanna get away from what is real in my life. Then this, then this occupies all of my attention. It could be someone going to the casino who has a, a gambling addiction and they, they, they're, you know, so they, and they just sit there and just blindly pull on a handle and watch things spin and it, that's the opposite of the negative space that is illuminating, clarifying, and nurturing. The negative space I'm, I'm speaking to about motoring is the negative space where you are present inside of your own mind and you look back on your life and you say, you know, and you're like, okay, that I had that moment and I could have gone the other way. And you start to explore. not, not to dwell on the past or, or to become someone that that's rearward facing, but to inform better decision making in the future. You start looking at things based upon what might have been, what could the world have been like if, if, if it had gone this other way?

Andrea: 22:57

Because you're more present to the moment or

Matt: 23:01

because, because you're entirely present. Because, because you are using all of your senses up to focus upon the negative space relative to what is actually, uh, important. You're not just manhandling this device that's just drinking up all of your attention because it's a real handful.

Andrea: 23:28

Don't we ride motorcycles or drive really fast to get to that place where we are totally present? It's almost like we wanna go through all this crazy noise and overload of sensory experience and escape to get to that moment. I think of the Hunter S. Thompson's quote, for example, about the edge and edgework. And I know you had a, have a relationship with Hunter s Thompson and his work, or I think you do, but where he talks about the edges, like there's no honest way to explain it, he says, because the only people who've been there are the ones who've gone over it. But also in that quote, you feel this moment where he's at one with the motorcycle and the, and the earth where he's totally present. I mean, to write about it, he had to be present.

Matt: 24:07

What I'm trying to do is get away from that illogical commentary. What

Andrea: 24:12

do you mean?

Matt: 24:12

So, I, I lived, I lived loving Thompson. He was coming to New Orleans. He had called and said he was, and, and, and then he died.

Andrea: 24:21

Oh, wow.

Matt: 24:22

But he said he wanted to come ride this, this Hellcat, because it was the ultimate in his mind. It, and he's right. It was, that was the shot out of a Cannon bike. Not, not a Ducati was the hell cat at that time. And then we made, then the fighter was of even more,

Andrea: 24:34

so he wanted to come ride it. But he, he died before he, he came.

Matt: 24:38

He died. He died before he could come.. He was real sick.

Andrea: 24:41

It's tragic. His life.

Matt: 24:42

I mean, I mean, hunter Thompson is the ultimate of escapism. Escapism is super attractive. I mean, there's a part of me that just wants to just party I totally get, I mean, I knew guys that were, when I, when I was a little school boy and doing all the right things and clicking all the right boxes, I also had a brother-in-law that was running the Harley deal and all those guys, you know, the Harley deal in Baton Rouge was all bikers. Then in the, in the, in the, in the, in the mid seventies. They were all like outlaw

Andrea: 25:09

Hell's Angels kind of stuff.

Matt: 25:10

And I love those guys. I mean, they, they didn't give up. They didn't, they didn't care about nothing. Right. They had women, they took drugs, they rode motorcycles, they broke laws, they got in fights. They had no absolutely no control over themselves. And, and Thompson rode with those guys. Mm-hmm. that's a beautiful thing. I mean, if I had a hundred lives, I'd live one like that. Now all those guys are dead. Now. Maybe would've never made it as long, as long as I have but, but I mean that, that, that is escapism. That's just not the way for humanity to, to optimize. That's not a better way. That's a worse way. Thompson was a provocateur. He's a great writer, and he used this writing and he, he was, uh, very rough on himself. Mm-hmm. it, it, it's not, you know, it's, it's not like he took care of himself. if, if he, if I were his son and he fed me the things that he fed himself, I would probably think, dad, you don't like me very much. So one might wonder, did Hunter really like Hunter? Mm-hmm. because he sure poisoned himself.

Andrea: 26:12

We often hurt ourselves a lot because for some reason we can't access that place even as much as we want to.

Matt: 26:20

But we don't need, you don't need, you don't need to go fast. As a matter of fact, I don't want any of our clients to be anything. I mean, my form of nurturance, uh, you know what I, what I'm calling almost like I wanna signature from our customers that you're going to exercise the, the most diligent sense of, of, of, uh, and dutiful sense of discipline and owning responsibility when you get on your Curtiss because anytime you're on two wheels, you know, if you just get off of it, it'll just fall. So obviously if you're on two wheels, it ain't balanced. It requires more attention and more discipline than four wheels on four wheels. You can run it off the road and add it. Might come get my Ferrari, you get it out, you call an Uber. Hey, come get it. I don't give a damn I'm rich. That doesn't matter to me. I, so I ran, you're not gonna get hurt. It's got 18 airbags and all that stuff. You run, you run your motorcycle into a ditch. It could be, it could be, uh, quite, uh, devastating. It could have a real significant effect. By the way, on the issue of the edge, I did the edge. I, I came, I went off the edge. I did it and I know where it is cause I ran over it and it was, uh, devastating to me. I was a, I was a quite a, an athlete before that. I've never been the same since then. And I never,

Andrea: 27:41

what do you mean you went over the edge with alcohol?

Matt: 27:43

I tried, I kept trying to do things on my bikes until finally, you know, God or whoever just pushed me down and said, okay, young man, it's time for you to go to the emergency room. It was a hard, lesson you know, I was sitting in a field and, you know, they came and got me and I couldn't move for, for months. And, you know, it was all that kind of stuff, you know, A lot of guys have had that, that, that.

Andrea: 28:03

How old were you that, that around about?

Matt: 28:06

That was like when I was about 32 or something?

Andrea: 28:08

Oh gosh. And you, you crashed in the field and you just had to sit there. Is that what I understood?

Matt: 28:14

I was trying to do something that, that couldn't be done, and I kept trying. I I'd been trying this kind of thing. I I was going to the edge. It is just what he wrote about. In a way, in a way, his writing had a negative influence on me. It, it's the, the fact is it's better to be squeezed from a tube when you're, when you're riding a motorcycle, it's a 180 degree.

Andrea: 28:34

What's that quote of his? I'd rather be shot from a cannon than squeeze from a tube.

Matt: 28:38

the new and the new Golden Age is more akin to what was going on before World War Two. The gentle cruise with lots of torque. I want my power, I want my beauty. I want the ultimate machine. I want to have the finest and best thing handmade in the world that this glorious two wheel device. But I don't wanna go fast on that thing at all. Now. Now maybe I could put it on the, in interstate. I can roll it from 60 to 90. It'll show me what, what torque to weight at, it'll accelerate faster than anything. And I can feel that when I've, when it's a clear day and I can see there's nothing that, there's no, uh, animal life that can get into the road. I, I, I've got a straight shot.

Andrea: 29:23

Mm-hmm. you just wanna push it.

Matt: 29:24

So I want, I want the power, but

Andrea: 29:26

Yeah.

Matt: 29:26

But when I'm just cruising around, man, I just want to, I just wanna have a chance to leave the positive energy of the world and go to the negative space a, a little reflection time to think some about what might be, what might have been and what could be how, how to create the better way. How to maintain my, my own cerebral and spiritual rebellion. This is not about physical rebellion. We're not, we're not fighting anyone. We're not, we're not seeing how fast we can go or how hard we can punch. We're just trying to exercise, optimized control, precise control over ourselves to get in the flow, to breathe with the flow of our own existence, to make our best contribution that we can to the future of humanity. Everybody does that and then we will last forever.

Andrea: 30:25

That's what everyone really wants in the end, isn't it? To fill, I mean, it sounds like that experience is where you fill at one with what's around you and you feel like you're an important part of it and that you can interact with it, think about it, and help other people and help yourself, which is very different from this Hunter s Thompson kind of cliche that, that a lot of us embrace early on--

Matt: 30:47

He's not, he's, that's not forever motoring he's talking about, he's saying, let me go find the edge. I might die tonight. And, and, and as I and I, as I approach death, you know, he, he's, he's struggling. What he's really doing, in my opinion, my, my, my synopsis of that way of thinking, which I've, I've lived most of my life thinking like that is, is, is just, uh, an inability to, to organically, uh, deal with the lack of certitude in, in, in, in our, in humanity's existence. The polarization is based upon this sense of, of, of people feeling that they are 100% right. but there is no certitude. The book shouldn't have been the Denial of Death. It should have been the denial of certitude because there's no, you know, sure, we're all gonna die. But the reality is, w the, we don't know these answers. You used the word faith a minute ago. So at some level, the innocence, the innocent, the, the virtue of innocence must prevail over cynicism, which means we have to take that leap of faith, that that everything is structured for the right reason. It's the old story about the twin brothers whose dad was a horrible alcoholic and, and one of'em became a horrible alcoholic, and the other one became an exceedingly successful man and they interviewed the two of them, and one of'em said well, my dad was an alcoholic. I'm just like my dad. And the other one said, I looked at my dad and my dad is a horrible alcoholic. Well damn, I'm damn sure not gonna be like that. So you can be cynical or you can be innocent. And we're never gonna have certitude about any damn thing.

Andrea: 32:34

In those moments where you are kind of at one, however you get there, um, where you are at one with your machine, for example, and you, and you are very aware and alert and safe. Not lost in some kind of stimulation, but present, you know, things are working the right way. In a way that's why we wanna get to that place because there is some sense, some people call it religious or mystical or whatever, but there's also just this idea of flow in psychology or there's many other ways to describe it where you do feel like you're at one with what you're moving through as you're moving through it, and you know everything's happening exactly as it should happen. And I kind of hear you saying that's actually the natural state, but we get so lost in trying to control things or control other people or, we just feel insecure, we want other people to like us and we are afraid. And so we do all these things, we get lost, like the way Hunter s Thompson kind of did. And because we all want that, you can always stimulate other people and play on those, um, those feelings the way he does. I mean, he's a great writer, but he definitely, as you were saying, sort of glorifies what in the end, if you've, if you've tried it, is not glory.

Matt: 33:44

Well, you just have to be very, very careful about the influences that you allow to, to, to, to come into your life. Hunter Thompson was a great influencer on my life in a negative way, so, Probably when I came off of my bike, I thought for sure I was gonna die because I was going really fast. And I'm lucky that I was hurt only as badly as I was hurt, which was quite bad. Uh, the influence that I, that Curtiss wants to have is an entirely positive, an embrace of the innocent. You have your bike, you ride it around you, you ride it around the little area that, that you live in the roads of your life are the roads that you're on every day. Mm-hmm. it, it's not the most glorious road in the world. It's a road you're on.

Andrea: 34:29

It can be, if you look at it differently, if you notice it, it could be maybe the most glorious road. Well, you should

Matt: 34:33

notice it because a road of your life, it's your life. These are the roads that I, these are the roads I roll on. I roll on, you know, I, I remember the little rolling on the road from my little house, five miles from south of LSU, in, in, in, in my first motorcycling on a daily basis. When it, when I only had the motorcycle, my little 500 Trophy Trail was between my house. And I would ride to LSU and I would ride back that was my life. That was the most glorious road in the world. Cause that's the R road. And, and when I ride that road on my motorcycle, now it's glorious for me. Because, because, because that's the forever aspect of the road. I, I was on when I was 18, 19 years old. And now I'm riding that same road. And, and that, that's your life, uh, uh, ladies and gentlemen. And, and, and that's, that's your reality. And just, and just rolling on it without any regard to how fast. It's not about speed, it's about just being chilled out and cool about it. Just enjoying it and being safe and getting in the zone and, and breathing with the, with the tarmac man. And, and, and that's, that's what our new bike does better than anything. It's so smooth. It's almost like you're just flowing on a magic carpet. It's, it's, it, it's much more sensory, uh, uh, sensual, uh,

Andrea: 35:56

It's more like a, a martial art or something, or surfing or meditating. These kind of things come to mind.

Matt: 36:02

It could, it could be like some. Some kata that, that a martial artist knows that he can just do it for hours because he's practiced it and practiced it and practiced it, and he can just, he can just roll with it. And that practice takes a lot of discipline. And as you're saying, it's, it's not that it's easy necessarily, but it's, it's worth, it's worth the discipline and the attention.

Andrea: 36:25

You have this transcendent experience that doesn't kill you. It actually makes you more alive.

Matt: 36:30

Yeah. And hopefully, again, to go back to my negative space argument, because I always try to imbue the bike, this, the, the design of our bikes with, with some acute negative energy so that you, you know, that, that the design, that the negative space of the design would, en enliven the senses.

Andrea: 36:51

Maybe you should explain what you mean by negative space. I think some people just think you mean negative, like bad, but you mean more like empty or, um, to

Matt: 37:01

I mean, um, what I, what I mean, what I mean by negative space is, is, you know, it's, it's like the 99.9% of, of, of humanity's existence. The things that are just unknowable.

Andrea: 37:14

Mm-hmm. like the dark matter kinda stuff.

Matt: 37:17

If you can, if you can get your arm around that and deal with it, then you can let go and you can, you know, I don't have the answer and neither does anybody else, you see. Because, because there's, there seems to be this for, for some folks they, they, they seem to em, oh, this guy has had all these, these achievements, so he'll guide us to the light. No. Everyone's got a thing their best at. We should let the people, we should let everyone, every member of, of humanity should be illuminated. Our goal should be to illuminate, clarify and nurture every one of us to be exactly what we are. We should invent a culture, a new culture. where every little child that comes into this world from square one, we look at that child as like a gift. That child knows something that nobody else knows. We're gonna get it outta that kid. It's treated like a resource or him, or her, like a resource. Because they do. I have enough, I have enough kids and grandkids to know when you're holding them, when they're just born, you can feel all of that. They already know everything. It's almost like the longer they go through life, the more blocked they become. I, I, I sometimes think it's the opposite of the way we're taught. You know, that man's born into sin. I think, man, I think we're born pure and then, and then, and then then humanity. You know, to beats the pureness out of us. We become cynical because of a world trying to make you anybody else but who you really are.

Andrea: 38:50

I think that's fair. Why should that be? I think that's well said, but I also think as kids, we don't know that we're experiencing things in a way, that's kind of the bliss that you're, you're just experiencing and you, and you do it in this way that we've been describing as lots of small pulses, right? Where you're, you're really attentive to everything. You walked down the street and you know, you, every little flower and everything can take your attention for hours. As a kid, you're very much aware of your environment and at peace, but somehow we don't know it, right? So as adults, we become aware of ourselves as, as people, and then, and then it gets complicated because then we start comparing ourselves to other people and all this. So it's kinda like T.S. Eliot says, right? We're trying to get back to that place and know it for the first time. I f we can be like, we are as little kids again, but know it, it's a little bit different, isn't it?

Matt: 39:38

Yeah. I mean, look, my, my, my little three year old Theo, my, my little grandson, he, he, he's totally innocent. Yeah, everything's beautiful to him. There're no, there're no, there're no, uh, three year old cynics

Andrea: 39:55

They're seeing the world in a clearer way. But how can we see the world again like that and know that we're doing it

Matt: 40:00

some level when you go into the negative space, what you wanna do, you know, uh, I've had friends of mine tell me that what you're really trying to do is you're trying to go back to that night, that Halloween night. Hmm. You want to take that ride again? You want to get in the back seat and, and ride in that 57, uh, Plymouth with your dad again. That's what you're really trying to do. You're trying to go back and, and that's a great thing. If someone, if someone is fully ripe and, and, and, and, and at the height of their powers and, and yet they can think like a three year, they can be like a, as innocent as a three year old. If that's what riding a Curtiss would do for our clientele, then I'd be the happiest person in the world--and so would they-- that would be ultimate victory. I mean, when, when, uh, when, when you, when you look at, when you look at the bike, you know, you look at JT's work, I mean JT is, it was the return to innocence for him.

Andrea: 41:04

JT Nesbitt, the guy who designed a, the Curtis One.

Matt: 41:07

It was getting him back to his, to it, it all the, all the beautiful creative work that makers, uh, uh, perform it it to, to, to be, to be great first. It can't be work. It, it has to be something that they would do for free if they could afford to, you know, great work isn't work And secondly, it has to come from a point of view of innocence. It just has to, you can't, no one ever created a design from a point of cynicism. That was, that was, that was worth even making.

Andrea: 41:46

I really like this because it ties in a lot of the things we've been thinking about, trying to get to this moment of awareness like you described at the beginning, um, on the back of, of the motorcycle or in the back of the car with your dad But also this idea of awareness and attention thinking small about things. Y ou mentioned JT who designed the bike, and everyone on your team is doing what they love and everyone on your team is very aware of the details and, these bikes are every little part is handcrafted and so much attention goes into it because the people are in this kind of space that you're describing, which doesn't mean they have perfect lives or anything, or that they're not dealing with and struggling with things, but when it comes to this craft, they're doing what they wanna be doing

Matt: 42:28

maybe they are living a perfect life and they, you know, this, but I mean, life, life is, is, it's imperfect perfection is imperfect, in other words, maybe, maybe it's, the way humanity is set up, I mean, if you have free will, then that means that you can fail. And the fear of failure is, is always there. Let me take a little bit of a divergent path and say this, I, I focus mightily on, on wanting to create this ultimate object of desire for people that, that don't have to compromise. So is this a big, that, that's really my, my work. So I, I want to create the coolest thing in the world for someone that can have anything he wants. Without it, it's no problem.

Andrea: 43:17

Or she.

Matt: 43:18

120,000 dollar bike for me is not, I'm, I'm practicing law. I make$5 million a year. My practice is worth a hundred million. You know, I'm doing great and I like motorcycles, so you make me the best and finest motorcycle in the world. I don't care what it costs, I'm buying it. Just, just don't screw me on the best and finest. We put this 13,000 dollar motor in this thing that, that's what I want. Don't, don't, don't sell me the the$3,000 one that's almost as good. I want the best. That's what I'm buying. I, I'm one of those guys. I want the coolest stereo in the world. Whatever it is I want, I want the$2 million watch.

Andrea: 43:51

It depends why you're wanting it, doesn't it too, like maybe you just want the best of the best, so everyone thinks you're super cool or something. It depends on how it's made and what it's made of and where it's made and all of this.

Matt: 44:01

I, I, look, I could be, my, my larger looming point is this, my work is to try to create for this person. Mm-hmm. And yet I don't know why I buy what I buy. You see what I mean? My larger point here, Andrea, is I think I'm probably as good as anybody in the world at figuring out what my customer wants and, and I believe, and I believe we've absolutely killed it with the, with the One by Curtis. I think it's exactly what the world's most accomplished men and women would want to own in their garage right now. It's perfect. It, it answers every question at the, on, on a foundation of acute innocence. What's really healthy for them. A good thing for them to get, they should get one. Everyone should all these re we should sell thousands of these to the, to the world's most accomplished people, in my opinion. I think I've killed it at the same time that I'm saying that I'm admitting to you that I don't really know why I buy what I buy, so at some level, all things a bit specious.

Andrea: 45:06

That's mysterious.

Matt: 45:06

I can't tell you what, you know, I could go to a restaurant and order a certain meal and then I'd be like, Hey, you know, why didn't I get the other thing? You know, why didn't I get the, I, I don't, I dunno. And, and, and, and, and yet I have a strong memory of every experience going back from my whole life. and I don't have any, I have no memory of your, what's going on in your mind? Mm-hmm. or my customer. All that is projection and none of us really know how other people think. Like why do people want control? I've known a lot of people that, that are very keen on having control that, that, that everything about their life is about them exercising control. It's the most important thing. I, I do want control over this company, but I'll tell you why, so that I can let go of it. My fight for control is not so I can control the people in the company. It's so that the people in the company will never be controlled.

Andrea: 46:00

There's a difference in intention. You know, it's, it's more like surfing, right? Where you're not in control and yet you're perfectly disciplined and balanced. Or a martial art, as we were talking about, that's a different kind of letting go than this Hunter s Thompson, uh, screw the world, take a lot of drugs and, go to your extremes in a kind of a more false way. You're in both ways. You're going to extremes in a sense, but there's a different quality there. And I feel like you say you don't know what other people want, but I feel like we've kind of talked a a lot about how people do want that experience of feeling part of something larger, being aware of it, feeling like things are moving as they should move. This feeling that we had when we were children. There's something we all have experienced like that. And maybe, you know, as creators, you're, you and your team are trying to kind of give people that experience in a healthy way or so.

Matt: 46:50

Well, the only, the only thing I, I would say about, what I. What I believe they want more than anything else is something that's real, particularly now something authentic, something that, something that, that they can trust anything and that will last. Right. That kind of Any, any, anything that's done, again, from the perspective of innocence and the beauty of the making of the thing. I think is what is, you know, is what they really want. I'm pretty confident that that is what people want. All I, all I was alluding to before is, is the fact that when you, see a, you know, a car like, uh, like the Gremlin, the, you know, some of the cars that we look back on or the, or the Pontiac. Aztec. And you have to remember that they, they were genius people, but brilliant people that worked hard on those vehicles, and they thought they were giving their customer exactly what they wanted. It's a very complex thing to, to work, to create an ultimate object of desire for people that can have anything they want it's a tall order, but yeah, I look, I, I mean, I've dedicated my life to it, so I'm probably better than anybody else. I'm just being completely candid that I'm very aware of my own, uh, fallible nature and that I struggle even, even looking back and deciding why I'd make some of the decisions I made. Now, I, I do wanna make this, this, this dis-affectation comment about Thompson. I think that, I think that Thompson's part of this post World War Two very much a part of that era where, you know, there was, there was this incredible bloodletting, and People in my age bracket, the baby boom bracket, were all raised by those men. My father was in a foxhole for four years you know, when he, when he went over there, he was, he was, he had just turned 18. And I, I always imagined my father, if he hadn't have had to go through that, that he would've been this really sweet, gentle person. And he was anything, but he was as tough as it gets. And he had taken no shit from nobody. But, you know, it was, what, you know, this sense of innocence and love that he grew up with as a child, I believe was decimated when he saw all of his buddies get blown up in a foxhole, living in a foxhole for four years. So, and, and I, and I think that permeated through the hot rod culture where people use motoring up until this time as a way to, as a blockade. I wasn't, nobody loved me enough. The world is too harsh. You become cynical. So I need to go to the edge. If I die, die, but what the fuck? Who cares? Maybe that's a good thing. If it happens, it happens. I want my motorcycle to be loud and bombastic and I want it to bounce all over the road. I wanna get shot out of a cannon. It's not very accurate. It's not very controlled at all. It's actually, I'm not controlled. I can't control a cannon very well. Cannon, cannon balls don't land right. Where you, where, where you want'em to land. Hmm. They're, they're very, uh, inaccurate. there's just a lot of pain that people feel. We're all these innocent children, but then we live and things happen. You know, people have to go through war. We've had a lot of these wars, but I wish we had none because at the root of, of our cause is no more war. Let go of control. And then there's, then there's then, then there's not going to be anymore war. Hey man, I'm not doing nothing to you. Why would you wanna do something to me? I ain't controlling you. I'm just here to nurture and, and I illuminate and, and, and clarify and optimize you and everybody else.

Andrea: 50:32

It's also being aware and present and having an intention to do well by others or to feel at one in a way with the world. To find this place of faith or belief or

Matt: 50:41

i, I, I don't know. I think, I think that it all comes down to, to re-imagining power as something that has broken down into, uh into the smallest little batches it can, it can be broken down into like what's happened with, uh, Curtiss One versus

Andrea: 51:00

all the pulses

Matt: 51:01

Confederate Warhawk, you know, one of'em makes a power pulse. Uh, you know, one of them, one of'em has 500,000 power pulses for every one the other one makes. And by spreading that power, the one that has the more pulses is just infinitely better. And what I was, what I was alluding to about my example of nonviolence and war is that we, we really are pretty far removed from a devastation like the 1940s war.

Andrea: 51:38

At least where we sit, if we were in Ukraine, it would be different right now, but at least where we are right now.

Matt: 51:44

Yeah. And, and, and, and that, that shouldn't be happening. I mean, we should, in a world of small batch individualists, then nobody would pick up a, a gun and shoot anybody. So it doesn't matter what my government says. If everyone resisted, there could be no war. I mean, if, if, if no one would do it, if, if no, if, if the leaders of the of the world said we're gonna have a massive war, but all the people said no, well, we'll go and go do it, man. Go, go, go now. Go fight your war. But we ain't fighting. If all of us, all of us, no, I'm not doing that. Fuck you then. There's no more war at all.

Andrea: 52:25

It's just like we were talking about before, that you, you have to go through this kind of loop of, of coming to awareness. Sometimes you go through the Hunter s Thompson or the being shot outta negative, the cannon stuff, to come to awareness that you don't wanna fight you don't want that anymore, sort of the way you did and go into the negative going from if everyone in, if everyone the combustion Germany to the electric,

Matt: 52:44

everyone, if everyone in Germany had said, I like all your plans, but I, but I'm not gonna fight. I, I I don't wanna do war. If everyone just decided as individuals that they didn't wanna fight, there couldn't be an any war, um, And they would've, and and if, and if every, and if everyone was nurtured to be nobody but who they, who they really are, they all would've said, I'm not doing it. But they're not nurtured to that. They're nurtured to be part of.

Andrea: 53:07

That gets back to this idea you were saying, of people doing what they feel is important in their own life, and that is, that can kind of feel like a luxury in some, you know, to some people that maybe still feel like they just have to do what they have to do to survive, right? That they, they can't decide. So it, I think there's a tension here that we're still as humanity trying to figure out, like if everyone could just do what they felt good doing, and it was in this flow space and helping others, there wouldn't be this need to fight and we would still be exhilarated and motivated riding a beautiful bike and moving through the world in exciting ways.

Matt: 53:43

And I, I also wanna say on the, on the issue of, of, of future that is sustainable. W we should not think in terms of sacrifice. We should think in terms of having more luxury, better, fewer things. Mm-hmm. everything artisanal so that the people that make things can make a great wage. So the idea would be, I'm gonna get one couch in my life. So I'm so, so Pam and, and I are, are looking at furnishings and we're like, okay, now we're gonna get a couch. The couch we're gonna have forever. Sweet. Our couch. That's where we're gonna sits, where we're gonna watch tv, that's where we're gonna bounce our grandbabies and one couch. We're not gonna get$500 couches that are, that are, that are inexpensive then they wear out and we get a new one every 10 years or something. We're gonna get one beautifully made couch and every little patina, every little scratch, every little thing about it is gonna become characterful. And when we give that couch to the next generation, they're gonna be like, I love this couch because it has a forever quality to it. This would be the, the i the idea of one life, one bike. I get. One bike I get so, I get, so of course I get the best bike in the world. I get exactly the right one for me. I get one car, I get one house, I get less food. but better quality. I can't eat, you know, three or 4,000 calories a day. I can only eat 2000 calories a day. But, I can pay the same for the two as the four, but now I'm not eating Cheetos and, and Oreo cookies.

Andrea: 55:31

Yeah, the quality of the experience

Matt: 55:32

and not only that, the quality of the, of the artisanal craftsmanship of the things themselves. Which, relate to the valuation that a person has. If I buy, if, if I bought a million dollar watch, that's, that one man in the world is the only one that could make it, and the only made three a year, then I'm paying for that artisanal craftsmanship. Well, the design, the innovation, but also the craft. So, like I buy this special lettuce from this farmer who's local, and he, the way he makes his lettuce and it really tastes great. Or a tomato that really tastes like a tomato, which most of them now don't, but it's local. And I know the guy, I know how he does it. It costs a lot more, but it tastes great and it's healthy. That's so, so what I'm saying is we don't have to, we don't have to lose our luxuries. I, I'm confident. I know. My innocent foundational, thinking is, is clear. Humanity can have way more luxury, way more satisfaction from the things it can acquire in a, in a open market, free enterprise world, and reduce the count of things to such a level that it will be entirely and completely sustainable. Less is more thinking, small works

Andrea: 56:55

with the Curtiss One, you've created this object that is, forever in a way. I mean, you've created it so that it doesn't need to be replaced. But it's still changing but it's changing in a way that's authentic and organic. You talk a lot about this, this organic thing. This kind of luxury where the object is really well made by people who really care about it and it's gonna become a part, a living, organic part of your life And it's kind of an object of art as the Curtiss is too. So it's something that you want around you and that gets better with time because it's so well made. So it's living even though it's made to last forever

Matt: 57:28

Well, look, it's def it's, it's definitely living. I mean, when my, when my, uh, grandkids ride, you know, my, my Curtis One, they're gonna be feeling something. It'll be, special for them. And when my great, great, great grandkids ride it, it'll be weirdly special. I, with, with ICE, you can never make a bike like this. The motor is under no stress. The electronics, there's virtually no moving parts. It's just that, that centered axis and, and the batteries will wear, but we can replace them as you just alluded to.

Andrea: 58:02

Well, an ICE can be meaningful too, right? You're talking about your kids and your grandkids and that bike is gonna be special to them because it's a special object, but also because you had it and you made it and you can have ICEs. I think in the same way, it's more that. We're trying to get to a point, right? As individuals and humans where we don't need to hurt ourselves to have those experiences. And I think maybe LEVs are, and what you, what you all are trying to create is going towards that. It's not saying, or maybe it is, but I don't think it's saying that ICEs aren't special. We all have special connections to them, but it's saying, Hey, we can also do it this way. Another way, healthier way maybe.

Matt: 58:38

Yeah. Look, look, I see I an internal combustion engine motorcycle is, you know, up until eight or nine years ago, I, I hated LEV myself. So I, I love it. I love it. But they're not forever. They would never last forever. Forever. ICEs aren't forever. I mean, there's, there's no way that you can, I, you can't even go drive a sixties car and have a drive The way they drove in the Sixties. S inger re makes does a great job of remaking these 911 s and it's lovely. But but those things are, those things wear of their own volition. They, they have. infinite moving parts compared to what our, our, the motorcycle now has. So what I'm saying to you is, in, in 250 years, you could take a Warhawk and the One by Curtis. You could have both of those. You could be my great great, great, great, great granddaughter and you could have'em. I don't think there's any way you could ride up the Warhawk, and if you did, I would, I would look down from the heavens. Mm-hmm. say, don't ride it. Be careful. It's dangerous. Anything could happen. You know, it's so old and it, all these moving parts, it could seize up. I, I, I wouldn't want you to ride it. But the One I would say absolutely it's better than it was when I rode it. It's gotten better. Know, new programming and, the cloud-based, uh, control the way the controls communicate has gotten far more sophisticated. And now it's got a battery that probably lasts for a year. Who knows what we'll be in hundred 50 years on battery storage. Probably. Unbelievable. We probably can't even imagine how much energy a small battery like that will be able to store. Who knows? Maybe the road, the road itself will just charge the motorcycle as you ride down the road. I mean, it's gonna get,

Andrea: 1:00:20

that would be cool.

Matt: 1:00:21

Quite profoundly. Awesome. So there's no comparison. This is, this is like comparing, an iPhone to, to the, to the first phone that, that, uh, Edison or whoever, you know, Bell made the call on, I mean mm-hmm. you know, it, it's, it's a far cry from where we were from the first moment, a a piston moves up and down with rings in a cylinder and the flywheel starts to spin. And, you engage the clutch and the, and the transmission gears slam against each other. those are fatigued. This fatigue sets in. It's just the nature of it.

Andrea: 1:01:04

You spend a lot of energy in instead of sustaining energy, which actually gets to this idea of sustainability that I wanted to talk about because. Just to tie these themes together a little bit. You and JT and Jordan and Pam and everyone, Vinay, have created this object by really giving it a lot of attention and love, frankly, and time and energy and every little part, has a purpose. It's like every part needs to be there. And at the same time, as we were just saying, every part can evolve and be changed depending on how the batteries change as we, as we go along. So how do we tie this together, this idea of attention and thinking of the details how does that become something that's forever and sustainable How do you connect those? Those, those parts. And how have you persisted in, continually trying to connect these parts? It's been over 30 years now,

Matt: 1:02:00

so, well, the, the quality of agelessness and timelessness have really been, particularly the ageless part with L E V was that with the light electric vehicle concept, the ageless part became, much more significant and much more like something we could do. I always wanted to make our other bikes last as best they could, the ICE, certain aspects were fatigued as fatigue resistant as they could be more so than any other bike. But they're just so many moving parts. So we had a shot at a agelessness and we did it the right way, mainly because of who our customer is who, who doesn't want us to compromise anything So we could, we could invest in, in pieces that are made so well that they will last forever. It's the difference between a V12 Ferrari and the cheapest little four cylinder you could get, uh, but, but timelessness is, is also important to this quality of sustainability. So nothing, nothing is going to contribute to sustainability if it doesn't have the aesthetic that, that keeps the desire alive.

Andrea: 1:03:23

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Matt: 1:03:24

the gentleman named El Cord is one of my heroes from the American, uh, automobile space. He's the only guy that really tried to do hyper luxury or pure lu, exclusively luxury in the, in the US United States for automobiles. And he, he talked about design that was a novel. uh, on the one hand, in other words, when you see it, you notice it because you've never seen anything like that before. Mm-hmm. like, oh wow, that's completely new and timeless. Something that would withstand the test of time. Meaning that what he really was talking about is you have to create future classics. You're in the business of making an icon, of making iconic advanced design something that anyone in this space would say, well, nobody, no great design or whatever, say, oh, I'm gonna make an icon. Cause the chances of it are so rare. But that's the attempt. Certainly what Curtiss would like to do long term. So we're starting off at hyper luxury with the world's most accomplished, but our goal is, is entirely populist. So my vision, for Curtiss, the culture of Curtis is that eventually everyone can have a, Curtiss can have, one can't, you can't get a new one every three years. But you can, you can go get. You know, new Hondas or whatever the other products are and trade'em off. And, but for that amount of money, you could just get one Curtiss. It'll still be a little more money than anything else, but we'll have a range for everybody. We'll invent a way where you can have it. What I'm saying is that we will create timeless aesthetics with ageless innovation for every person in the world.

Andrea: 1:05:20

That's a lot of customers, Matt, every person in the world.

Matt: 1:05:23

Uh, yeah. But there are a lot of ways to, uh, to scale. You don't have to do all the work yourself. There are a lot of ways to skin that cat. And, and again, I'm not, I'm, let's go back to what I said earlier. I, uh, you know, certitude doesn't even exist. And ambiguity, ambiguity is is the only thing that's real. So, I don't, I'm not sure how this will happen. I'm just saying that in a hundred years, I, I would hope that our work, that our creative work concerning the aesthetics. And, the operating system, the superior operating system, and the most advanced Form DNA in the world for every taste type, style, and pocketbook will result in everybody saying, well, of course, I wanna get that. They're the best and finest in the world. Why wouldn't I? Somebody's gotta be the best. Somebody's gotta be number one. My vision is what we're number one. We just start very small. I think we're already number one.

Andrea: 1:06:22

You have a lot of, strong belief in yourself and your team, and you always have, and I know you've been through a lot of tough times. Most motorcycle companies don't last a few years, and you've lasted 30 years. You've created a lot of bikes that actually fit to this quote by Chord, at least in the one respect of being something you've never encountered before. They all are striking. They aren't all timeless in the way you described in terms of sustainability. That's kind of the turn you've made with this new one. But even so, I'm just wondering how have you persisted? You've had a lot of the same people on your team for all these years, or they've come back and I just wonder what is it,

Matt: 1:07:00

I believe that this is a great, a great company. The things we've talked about today. I think these things, the underpinnings of this company are important. They matter. I'm not a politician. I, I like playing the role of the rebel, which is I think something that I'm very, uh, well set to be, I think it is very organic for me. You know, when I first read Camus it was like, uh, it was just like the best wine you ever tasted. It just jumped down my throat. You know, the rebels, the man who loves humanity and yearns to see it in a better way that you live so free, that your very existence is an act of rebellion. Now, how could I ever quit on something like that? I mean, I'm not a quitter anyway, I mean, You know, when I was young, I used to, you know, some people would bully me cause I was kind of skinny and a little bit cute. You know, I don't know why they did. I don't know. But, but anybody that ever tried to bully me got way more than they thought they were gonna get. Not, not necessarily because I'm a great fighter, but I've just, I just, I just don't quit, you know? I just never quit. So, I, I mean, I'm the opposite of a quitter. I, you know, I, in, in the I Ching the first principle of creativity in the I Ching that firm persistence will ultimately be rewarded with universal harmony. So I kind of live by that too. So a company that firmly persists ultimately will become number one. And what I said earlier is correct. We're already the leader in the LEV space. We've already invented a better way. It's done fait acompli. Technology on our bike is better. And there's no question the idea that you would put our bike in every other electric bike in a room, and you took a vote. I said, which one's the prettiest motorcycle? There's no question which one would win.

Andrea: 1:08:55

This kind of happened not too long ago, right? Last year you were, your bike was chosen to be in the exhibit at the peterson Museum in Los Angeles. This amazing place where, what was the name of the exhibition?

Matt: 1:09:07

It was the Electric, Electric Revolution. But I mean, it was clear that they thought it was the, it was the one that was the most aesthetically pleasing, at the Peterson. I've, I've ridden the bike a lot and, and it's, it's bizarre almost how many people come up to you and tell you, wow, dude, that's like a great looking thing. I think all of our V-twins were timeless. They just weren't ageless. They were by timeless. I'm talking about the aesthetic. We did nine different, or eight different ICEs, I'm very pleased with every one of them. So I, I would say each one of them is like a timeless example of, of what you would consider to be the most badass American motorcycle that could, you could possibly imagine at the time of its creation. But now it's not about badassery anymore. So we've, we've made the 180, that's where I got hung up on the, on the Thompson thing. You know, wanting to, wanting to design for Hunter, being kind of his surrogate, uh, thinker. And, so at some level, Hunter was the barnacle that I had to pull off. Mm-hmm. So now I can be the real crab that I actually am and not just think through the barnacle,

Andrea: 1:10:18

come back to where you started and know it for the first time. be the little kid on the street again and know it. We have to wrap it up pretty soon. But before we do, I, I think we should talk a little bit about sustainability in terms of the environment the ecological kind of change. We're all, whether we like it or not, having to rethink our motoring habits and what they mean for each other and for the world and I just wonder if that plays a part in this idea of sustainability and forever motoring for you,

Matt: 1:10:46

I mean, you can't, you cannot create a forever, example of work and simultaneously not want forever to, to, to be a reality. So organic, uh, in holistic out less is more thinking small. We have, we're gonna have to take less, but I'm saying, Let's not talk about sacrifice. We can gain, we can have more luxury. All of humanity can experience greater luxury, greater pleasure from the expenditure of, what wealth you're able, to create in your life with real purpose. And that's, and, and work that is intended to last. Now, of course you can't, I mean, it has to be made, made. But if, but if we make fewer way, way, way fewer of them so that we are not, we're not replacing new, new Curtis every three or four years for our, for, for our client. And then taking the old Curtis and throwing it in a trash heap, as long as we stick with the lasting forever and we recycle all the batteries, then, then we're good. Then it's, that's the best you can do. And, this, and this ideal needs to be, it needs to be thought through, uh, throughout all of the, of the way that, that, that humanity lives its life. I don't think we have to give up you know, eliminate certain types of food or whatever. Uh, we just need to consider how much can we have it, it just needs to be more specialized. it needs to be thoughtful and considered, and we need to understand, we need to move away from certitude and, and begin an organic process of, of thinking small and taking less where everyone takes less, but better things. Maybe there's a world where I can eat a two ounce cheeseburger once a week and may, maybe that's okay. Maybe, but maybe I can't eat a pound of beef a day. I'm pretty confident that when we find the right balance, when we figure this out, and we will, that, uh, that it'll be healthier for people. They'll have a better life. They'll get more pleasure out of the work that they consume from, from their fellow man and that, and that we'll find ourselves living in a most sustainable environment.

Andrea: 1:13:24

We talked about awareness and being aware of your environment as you can be on the Curtis, it's like a meditative experience. Do you, do you see that as connected to this idea of, environmental concerns and changing the way we see the environment?

Matt: 1:13:39

It's in the Yeah, you had alluded earlier to negative space and what exactly that means. It's, it's like the, it's like the thing you don't know that you don't know. So it's, it. It's the information that, that you're not even aware of. But there may be, it may be that you do know maybe when you get into that negative space and you get in the flow and then all of a sudden an idea occurs and you're like, where the hell did that come from?

Andrea: 1:14:14

So maybe there's some answer to some of our environmental concerns that comes out of that flow space.

Matt: 1:14:20

There's not a, there's not a human being alive that hasn't had an unbelievably great idea that didn't have the idea and then say, what the hell? You know, how did I figure where, why do I know that? Mm-hmm. Well, it's because, it's because everything that's proper and good. About our future is known by us, but it's not known by very few people at the very top, it's known within the mind and soul and spirit of all of us. That's the resource that we need to tap.

Andrea: 1:15:00

it's been so nice to talk to you and I know you're dealing with a lot today, so thanks for taking time.

Matt: 1:15:05

I like talking to you.

Andrea: 1:15:07

That was really interesting. And more to come

Matt: 1:15:10

I really appreciate it. Me too.