Mark Wilsmore: Pilgrimage to the Ace

Ace Cafe, the home of motoring, birth of the Cafe Racer, the place where Mods, Rockers, The Who, streamline modern, and the new electric rebels of London all live and intersect. 

Speed is an addiction for Mark Wilsmore, the man who brought the Ace (back) to life. Per usual, we also talk about the edge: "the closer you get to death, the greater you value life." 

Have a look at all the places you can now find the Ace, from Kuala Lumpur to Orlando, but the real beating heart and history of motoring is just off London’s North Circular Road.

Have a look at some photos from the 2009 resurrection here on The Motorcyclist.

Watch the full videos of the Ford car night at the Ace excerpted in our YouTube video.

Watch "the best party in town" Ace bike night footage here.

And here's a great piece to watch on the Mods & Rockers.

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Transcript

Andrea: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome to forever motoring. I'm so glad you're here. Have you ever heard of the Mods and Rockers? Are you perhaps a fan of The Who and Quadrophenia or of the Beatles and A Hard Day's Night? Well, it all goes back to, or at least intersects at one place: the Ace cafe in London. The birthplace of the Café Racer, the launchpad for many races and many rock bands. 

 There are now numerous franchises of the ACE and cities such as Barcelona and Beijing, but the London ACE cafe is the original and the beating heart of all those others. Today we talk with Mark Wilsmore the owner and the man who brought the ACE Cafe back to life in the 1990s. And in, so doing [00:01:00] gave motoring enthusiasts, as well as music lovers. A place of pilgrimage that spans the history of modern motoring. 

Today as we'll talk about, it's even having, visitors from electric scooters and groups on electric bicycles, who've heard about it and want to come, these kind of new Mods and Rockers of our age, showing up in trainers and kneepads and motocross gear and disrupting the environment a little, uh, just as the Mods and Rockers did back in the fifties and sixties. 

We talk about that a bit. We talk about speed and addiction and what it means to belong to a group. There's just so much history here. There's so many things I couldn't include it all here. So I hope to just go and explore some on your own too, but Mark Wilsmore, the owner of ACE cafe is a generous and storied person and I just happened to be in London not too long ago. So of course I made my own pilgrimage to the ACE. 

And he gave me a wonderful tour and I took some videos and extra photos. [00:02:00] And I'll post some of that on the website for some extra stories, but I just want to say how wonderful it was to be there at the ACE and to feel that space. And just, you know, be there for the morning and into the afternoon, see everyone coming in. 

So many different kinds of people, of course, groups of motorcycle, motorcyclists arriving for their coffee in the morning or their lunch. Sitting at the long tables, at the bar, also families with little kids whose parents wanted to show them the place. , people just stopping in as their daily ride on the way to work and having their coffee. 

And, you know, it just feels like a real community there. It's kind of like a garage, like atmosphere, there's bikes in there. Um, but it also is just a beautiful space with these beautiful windows and architecture, looking out on this very industrial London landscape. Uh, it's a wonderful place to experience and we talk about that in the interview a bit and what this place means and what might be coming in the [00:03:00] future for motoring and for ACE. Uh, but there aren't many places like this in the world that have lasted. I can't really even think of another place that's been around since the beginning of the car and the motorcycle where people have just stopped by for the love of motoring for all those years. So it's a special place and it's worth checking out in person or just online. And, um, one little note before we start. Mark talks about the CAF a lot. Uh, so if you don't know what that is, it's the cafe, the ACE cafe. 

All right, everybody enjoy.

Andrea: Hey Mark. Good to see you. Welcome to Forever Motoring.

Mark: It is a pleasure and good to see you as well across this extraordinary instrument, I think called Zoom.

Andrea: Quite a vehicle within itself.[00:04:00] So this podcast is about what moves us and the ways that we move, and I always start with this question: what's something in your life that has moved you or some memory in your life when you remember being moved? You can take that anywhere you like.

Mark: Well, it, it might sound corny and it is a, , is an experience that I first found I thoroughly enjoyed and that was speed or the feeling of speed, I guess probably would've been on a bicycle or something and having discovered this, I can say this thing called speed.

You want to go faster and faster. And, what then invariably unfolds is that the skillset doesn't quite keep up with that ambition to get more of it. But as I've got older, I've come to realize that . In essence, it's a, it's an addiction. It's adrenaline. Your body produces this--I guess it's a [00:05:00] chemical that you become addicted to and you want more and more of it. It's, the speed is, is the thing that really has moved me, and it then comes in various ways, whether it's the sight, sounds, smell that I associate with, it triggering this, uh, this body reaction of, uh, producing adrenaline.

 I think that 

Andrea: speaks to motoring in so many different ways, sort of a reason for why we do it. Is it, do you think it's this feeling of wanting to feel alive or is it wanting to go somewhere you've never been before or--

Mark: Oh, for sure. Well, it's absolutely that is that, um, there's lots of people put it together better than I, I, from Steve McQueen, Jack Keourac, I, I can't think of them all now, but, but it, what it comes down to, it seems to be, it, it is that the closer to, um, death you get the, , the greater you value life and, [00:06:00] and clearly not being a very good rider of, of motorcycles, that that's an experience that, , that can be very familiar.

Andrea: What is it about that moment? I'm I have my motorcycle license, but I'm not very good rider. But, I like the edge, right, or this edge work 

Mark: That's it. 

Andrea: pushing yourself to a place you've never been before. And there's something about all of your senses are totally present and heightened in a way. Does that happen for you?

Mark: Oh, for sure. It, it's where your, as you just remark, all your senses is entirely focused and bringing about that focus is also bringing about that, um, I say surge of adrenaline and, and gives this this incredible sensation of, yes, I'm alive as it were. That can be found in a pouring rain when you've gotta get home or , riding [00:07:00] Mad Sunday at the Isle of Mann.

It can be found in all sorts of different ways. And of course, In the environment that I've lived most of my life of metropolitan London, busy roads, the, the speed, the, the amount of speed may not be that high, but that total focus because of traffic conditions, filtering through traffic, , that, that can produce just as much adrenaline.

And I'm sure as, um, flat out on a drag strip or across Bonneville. It may not get quite the accolades, but uh, it's the same sensation.

Andrea: That's a very good point because it does have to do with focus and attention too, doesn't it? I think in everyday life we get it's easy to get distracted or think about things too much or I'm not sure, maybe, you know what I mean? But, you're in those situations, for example, on the bike, on the, the road near the Ace, you have to be present. It forces you to just be in the [00:08:00] moment, which is not always easy to do in everyday life, is it?

Mark: No, that's absolutely it, if you don't focus, you won't survive very long.

Andrea: Exactly. There's not much of a choice if you want to stay alive and weirdly in those moments, you realize you do wanna stay alive, which is also sort of part of why it's attractive.

Mark: Yep. you then pinch yourself and think, good grief as I've just come through that, that's extraordinary. , they thought that's gonna be the end of you as it were, but you come out the other side,

Andrea: every rider knows that experience, don't they?

Mark: Absolutely. Absolutely. , something I can speak to with some experience, not of the latter years, thankfully, but some years ago that my brother worked it out when we were having a bit of a discussion as to who was the better rider, as it were. It sounds a bit glib, but he, he, he worked it out. I had spent five years in hospital. When you add up all the crashes and [00:09:00] things, when you add up the times. Yeah. Amount of time. Appreciate today. 

Andrea: Do you wanna tell us about that or not?

Mark: One particular crash, very, very slow speed. I just started to pull away from a, uh, pedestrian crossing , I'm on the main carriage way and as I'm progressing across that T junction, a car just came straight outta that side road and, smashed into me.

And, um, it's very painful.

Andrea: That's the thing everyone's afraid of, right? Because as focused as 

Mark: yeah, 

Andrea: and as attentive as you might be, and as a as in the present moment you might be as a 

Mark: that's it. 

Andrea: putting yourself in this situation where everyone else has to be present. If you're gonna stay safe, 

Mark: yep. It really is a, a balance and I was fortunate to come through it with my limbs still in place, et cetera, et cetera, and, and couldn't wait to get back on and do it all [00:10:00] again. Really?

Andrea: You didn't have any hesitation? 

Mark: No, no. I think it's back to that simple word again. I already mentioned addiction.

Andrea: Yeah. I wonder about this relationship I wonder if there is a relationship between people who ride, people who love speed cars, motoring and all its forms. Could be planes too, or even just when you're a kid on the bike, to take it, up an extra notch than maybe your friends are, if, if these sorts of people, like us, are more prone to addiction in other ways, too negative ways.

Mark: Perhaps so, but it, it seems to me it's likely to be less harmful than many other addictions. You know, thankfully, I, I didn't say trip into heroin or something like that in, in, in my youth. So I guess I was fortunate there I, I love cars, old ones, new ones from the modern Ferrari through to , the hot rod culture that came out of American [00:11:00] fifties and early sixties, and then muscle cars love all that, but, You can't really pursue that as a, uh, as an addict here in the UK cause our roads are just too congested and you've gotta go miles out to be able to enjoy that vehicle and the performance it can produce whereas on two wheels. It's much easier to, to, and say indulge it in the urban environment. 

Andrea: There's also something about being on the bike though, when you're in those wide open, beautiful spaces, something about the motorcycle that's different than the car. 

Mark: oh yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. One of the terrific, recollections I have of being in California and riding up PCH some years ago, a dear friend had organized a ride from LA up to, , San Francisco basically, and it's gonna be over two days was a whole group of us all got together and someone kindly loaned me a modern retro [00:12:00] Triumph, the Bonneville type bike. Quite a considerable group we all set off and it was torture. I can't think what the speed limit. Is or was at that time, but it's all very slow. And as we got out of metropolitan environment of LA as it were heading, heading up the PCH, there's a guy, American guy who was on an old Triumph Bonneville that was really scruffy and had oil leaking out of everything, engine, gearbox, suspension, , and he, his attire was exactly as the bike.

, he pulled away from the rest of us so off we off we went racing off. And, I'm sure you're familiar with what I'm about to describe how we kind of wind up taking turns in front of each other. Who, who's the maddest on the the bends and this, we hit the, I think it's a stretch of the PCH where it's all canyons here rising up and it twists up and then hair pin, bend and it [00:13:00] twists down and back up again.

And, and he's come past me first. I think he's standing on the foot pegs.

Doing a crucifix. Yeah. Well, uh, so yeah, then I have to do it. I'm go in front of him and I do it, and then he does it standing on the seat and then,

Andrea: what

Mark: I do it. We're doing all these nutty things is Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. , then it got more intense, giving it, giving it some real throttle. And I should never forget, it was my turn in front. Just me and him long way ahead of everybody else. And I can remember rising up to what I know is a hairpin that's gonna go all the way around to the right, going back down into the, I'll say the canyon shoreline as it were.

And then rise back up again a hundred yards away from that. , hairpin. All of a sudden there, there's two guys in sunglasses [00:14:00] sat looking directly at me. Cause it's a helicopter that's come up the cliff face

Andrea: No. Oh my gosh.

Mark: and my eyes go go from the hairpin to looking at them. I won't say the word, but it, you know, dot dot dot it's a four letter word. All the winds been knocked out of me sails is the expression. And then, then you get to this bit where, where you'd make a right and then you can see for miles along as straight as the road goes down, you can see the Pacific on your left and the gentle rising of the ground up to the land up to the right miles and miles is undulating road and there's a sea of police cars ahead

Andrea: Oh, no.

Mark: So it's now whatever the speed limit is, I know 40, 50 or whatever it is, poodle along there. I can remember passing the police cars and then looking in that mirror up and then one of them's lots of flashing lights and heading to me. And of course the other guy merely goes riding [00:15:00] past, which is the right thing to do. Don't get involved. Don't blame

him. And, and there's little old me I'm dressed up on say, hello, Mr. Rocker. So I've got study leather, the British, the whole, you know, white silks, scarf, the open face, the whole bit.. The bike has got a Georgia number plate because the bike has been borrowed from Triumph, officially lent to me.

And although it's open face and the scarf, I can't hear anything cause it's such a snug fit. And I can remember getting off the bike and this huge California highway patrol bloke, absolutely giant. He's got his hand on his gun, which for an Englishman that gets my and he's standing there and I can see his lips moving, but I can't hear a single word he's saying. , it's rural, rural California [00:16:00] coast, can't hear a word cause of the helmet. And I'm trying pry this thing off my head. But it's a very difficult helmet to put on and take off. Anyway, took the helmet off and then unwrap the scarf. And I say, sorry about that, but I couldn't hear. And he, he's obviously taking in my strange attire.

Georgia number plate now hears it. It's like, what on earth have I got here? And he asks for my papers, you know, driver's license, insurance. The same sort of questions you get asked and I've got them in a little plastic thing. I put them in her pocket. Can't feel, can't I can't find it. It's got my passport. It's got all, all my very important documents, accounting for me being in America and why I'm on this vehicle.

 Everybody else is on the bike. They're going past, I took the leather and I'm going through that and can't find it, so [00:17:00] he's asking When did you arrive? Uh, when, when, when did you land in, in the US?

This last Tuesday. When, when do you, where, where'd you arrive? LAX. When do you leave? On the second Thursday. I don't know. I dunno the dates or anything like that, but I know I'm here. Then I feel once I got the jacket off, I can feel that the bag, the pocket lining has come away from the opening.

So the, So the, it, it's moved around to the back of the jacket as it were. Get these in, give them to him, and. I've got my UK license, which is a very old one, and they were pa their paper with no photos on modern UK ones now are like little cards with photos. And basically the guy's never seen either of these sorts of things before. Basically he gives up in the end it seems to me. And, and then I got a road safety lecture, like I didn't know it was dangerous. Oh [00:18:00] really? But hey ho , I got away with it, thankfully. 

What was, what was 

What was of an adrenaline 

Andrea: rush? Doing the standing on the seat or getting pulled over by him 

Mark: and the helicopter?

Well it it, it was the hand on the gun bit.

It was that hand on the gun bit that was that instant. But one once engaging conversation, I, I could see that he was giving up on, on some strange Englishman. That's like what I, he's not a threat or anything, it's just a weirdo that that's I guess how he saw me

Andrea: do you remember the first time you rode with a group like that? 

Mark: Well, that, that, that, that's parts of the buzz actually yeah, let's all go down to wherever it is Brighton or in this instance San Francisco, so who's gonna get there first on I'll show ya. Yeah. Or, or as you find bits of stretches on that journey of exciting roads with bends and twisties and whatnot. That, that's where I'm say perhaps it's a male thing, I don't know, but it's the [00:19:00] old peacock who can do this best or who's the maddest comes out in, in perhaps guys more than, than than ladies. I, I don't know, but yeah, a bunch of you whizzing off somewhere and who's gonna get there first or who's motor is gonna pack up.

Andrea: Mm-hmm. That definitely plays back into that idea of speed and getting the adrenaline racing. 

Mark: It's another way 

Yes, 

to do it I guess 

that's it. That's it. 

Andrea: Can can be. So you've been riding a long time and it was in the nineties that you found your way to the Ace cafe. But I wanna ask you, what is the ACE Cafe for those who, few in the world who might not have heard of it?

Mark: Well, I guess the Ace, there's its history that screams speed thrills, and the, the taste, smell sound, et cetera. Whether it's two wheels or four wheels, you can go to all sorts of places and indulge that interest.

You, you could watch [00:20:00] Moto GP on TV. You can watch Formula One on TV, you can buy the hat or whatever, but there's nowhere that's, I'm gonna say could be regarded as home. And it might seem somewhat, um, perhaps even parochial to venture because of the history of the cafe and the dynamic of London that gave rise to that history. Ace it seems to me, represents a home for those with that interest. In the same way that I'll say British guys or English guys more particularly perhaps, will regard Wembley as the home of football. You can play it everywhere. But there's only one place that's kind of regarded as home and that's Wembley. And I think it's a similar, similar vibe as it were, a around Ace.

Andrea: That's what I've heard from people too. The Ace is the home of motoring and you bring up these places where [00:21:00] sports are played. It almost has a sort of sacred feeling or like you would do a 

Mark: pilgrimage 

Yep. Yep. 

Andrea: to go there or something. 

Mark: That's it. 

Andrea: there something like that with Ace?

Mark: I, I believe so. I, I do believe so. It certainly, it, it is for me, speaking as a Brit as a Londoner, it certainly is for, um, my peer group and those older, and, and with the passage of time, I can see it, it means exactly the same thing to the whole sway of youngsters. Today, youngsters, are turning up on E-scooters, they stand on scooters and electric bicycles. Yeah, we have all sorts of issues around that with police are, they're illegal, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, kids are just buying a bit of technology that they can whizz about on and show off on that they can afford and lay their mitts on, and there's whole sort of fashion sense that seems to be spawning from that as a consequence.

And, [00:22:00] and yeah, I guess if I was 16, 18, that's probably the route I'd go. Nike or, or the tracky attire as this term trainers. But most of these ones that I'm thinking of, they're, they're also wearing, um, sort of motocross body armor, the elbow pads, the chest and back protectors and, and full face motocross lids with the big jaws and the

peaks 

Andrea: wow. On, on an electric bike or on the

Mark: on both on electric, on electric scooters, and on the electric as in bicycle type bikes, 

uh

not electric 

Andrea: motorcycles

Mark: Per se.

Yeah. That, that, that they're far too expensive that, that their outta reach of most people, let alone 17 year olds. So yeah, , they certainly can't ride from London to Brighton on on them. They can ride around in London on them, but they will never, never get to Brighton on them.

Andrea: No. But they can get to the ACE pretty well with 

Mark: them

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's what I'm saying. They [00:23:00] start gathering up there and all that showing off doing these stops as they can do em on the E-scooters. And the electric bikes, of course, it's, they can do wheelers as well, where the, the scooters, they can't do wheelies.

Andrea: And you see something similar in the energy that they have that you 

Mark: Oh, it's exactly the same. Yeah. It's exactly the same back through the ages. It is, it's exactly the same as a 17 year old ton up in 1955. Or, a Mod or a Rocker in 65. Exactly the same . A whole sort of, uh, tribal culture evolves. There's a soundtrack to it. There's a dress code to it and all that. A new age, new technology.

Andrea: It's fascinating. 

Mark: God knows what the youngsters on these E scooters are listening to, but they're happy with that sound, whereas I'm kind of addicted to the sound of an engine, whether it's four stroke or two stroke.

But with today's generation, they often not, they, they're, they're wide into something, so [00:24:00] they're, they're still getting a stimulus. It might be a, a totally alien thing to me as it were,

Andrea: You mentioned, um, the Ton Up boys and the Mods and Rockers. Maybe we can just unpack that a little, that time in the 1950s. 

Mark: Youngsters were not into bikes or anything at that time. They couldn't afford 'em, weren't available or couldn't afford 'em. But it's that immediate post-war period where a generation well the advent of the term teenager is in that same period, there's this massive Baby Boom on both sides of the Atlantic. And of course, these terms. Teddy Boy, Ton Up, Mod Rocker, Punk, Hoodie, Yardi, all, all these terms are terms of contempt given by society to the young. They don't sit around, go all should we call ourselves. Ah, that don't happen. But having been given a label, cause they're bad, it's no good [00:25:00] dressing like that. And all these young people, as soon as you've got a label, a kid goes, oh, I wanna be one of them. Oh, I've got to grow me hair like this, I've gotta get a jacket like that. So it just feeds this desire to be a member of this dangerous group. 

These young, the response is exactly the same whatever decade you care to go through since, and of course, as income improves and bikes become available, and in America it's cars. The kids go out and buy the fastest thing they can afford. In America, it's a car, over here it's a motorbike. And they do exactly the same thing on both sides of Atlantic, which is go to the edge of towns in America's to the diner here, it's to the calf. And the Ace is a big, still is a big calf at the edge of [00:26:00] London, as it were at that time. Fast bits of road, no speed limits, and guess what? They race each other.

Andrea: Speed.

Mark: Carnage ensues, then outcry. So must be done. Speed limits, the police, et cetera, et cetera. So nothing, nothing new under the sun. But that early era of, um, two wheels, the kids were called by the press or identified as press, as just Cafe Racers. They weren't proper motorcyclists. They just raced from cafe to cafe, you know, mile up the road and come back or just Ton Up boys. And of course, as soon as those terms are used, the kids go, yeah, I'm a Ton Up.

It's not a 

Andrea: onto 

Mark: and latch

onto it. 

Andrea: So those are terms, the press came up with those terms, mod and rocker, and even cafe racer. 

Mark: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Andrea: guess it's like that, right? You get labeled something and then you [00:27:00] take it on.

Mark: That's it. That's all, all it ever is. And, , the change came from Ton Up to Rocker, uh, I'll say similar look, you know, bikes and the black leather jacket with the, the move through the, fifties into the sixties. And it was initially known as, um, London Beat then British Beat and more famously subsequent me beat a beat all string blue jeans, blah, blah, blah. A very particular sound. But it's also as that teenage, again, the term in teenagers invented along with this massive Baby Boom that comes, I'll say, of age in, in the fifties.

Andrea: They got more money. They're buying things. 

Mark: And if one has in mind that there were no clubs, no radio stations playing the music, but the time you get to [00:28:00] 1960 in this country, there are, , TV shows playing. The music clubs have started to open and bands are starting to appear in the halls at pubs and clubs and whatnot. I'm sure you've heard The Who?

Andrea: The Who, of course. 

Mark: Well, they went to school just behind the cafe.

 And these youngsters would've been in the cafe listening to Rock and Roll on the Jukebox. Now this is at a moment when films like the Dolce Vita and it Italian was seen as the new Cool. So its frothy coffee, it's Italian suits. Smart. And again, kids buying suit every week. Clothes, clothes every week. And the Italian scooter manufacturers realized that their scooters were under the 250 cc and were spot on for the next generation.[00:29:00] They did a huge marketing campaign new sound, new look and got scooters. So typically if you were 16 in, I'll say 1964, you're gonna be buying Italian suit or Italian style suit. You're gonna be listening to R & B music. You're gonna get a scooter cause it's the latest and the newest. And kids always seem to go the latest and newest. Not one of them dirty black leather jacket and one of those, all the old motorbikes. So that is your Mod. 

Andrea: And Rockers. I love this connection between the music and the motoring and the style it's all kind of cohesive, isn't it? 

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: back to that sensory thing where what you're listening to and how you're moving can't really be disconnected , it also makes sense that you would be connected with other people who are immersed in that same sensory experience.

Mark: It's inherent with youngsters. Goes with the, [00:30:00] with with the age group, it seems to me.

Andrea: interesting. There's always a kind of medium though, right? Like it's motoring. It's the, there's something you're doing together as a group. Either 

Mark: Yep. 

Andrea: the sports team you're watching and you're cheering, or you're,

Mark: You wanna belong,

I belong. 

Andrea: There's always some that you know, is making it kind 

Mark: It's, it is this sense of belonging wants to belong.

Andrea: Yeah. I guess I wonder over time, if, if you, we were talking about how like these guys on the electric scooters today, it's a similar energy 

Mark: Yep. 

Andrea: All of these things are something similar, but do we always have to have some kind of opposite, like an an opposite group in distinction to us?

Is that something you've seen at the Ace, has that changed 

Mark: that had that, I, I think, 

Andrea: you? I don't know.

Mark: yeah, I, I think that is the case. I can't say I've observed it, but I think wherever you got Ying, you're gonna have Yang. The Ace is kind of a, , it's, it's ethos overrides, if you like it, it's egalitarian, it's utilitarian, it, it seems to be viewed in that [00:31:00] regard, as it were, and held in that regard.

Andrea: It seems like, when you go to the Ace, no matter which group you are in, you're there for the bigger issue, the bigger picture of motoring. Right. It's not just,

Mark: Broadly. Yes. Broadly yes. Yeah, though, I'll, I'll use, um, a, a car night. It's e Easier, easier that, or it could be Harley night actually as well. It, it, cuz there is, um, invariably friction between demographics and it's an age demographic rather than necessarily a vehicle one. 

 Or, or it's classic, there's a classic car night where again, overwhelmingly there, there's a soundtrack that goes to it. There, there's a look, there's an age group and of course if you are 18 and you've got two, you've got an R1M or something, ba, ba, ba.

And [00:32:00] of course the guy is yaking about the classic car or the Harley's, like what? Hell,

Andrea: doesn't quite fit 

Mark: because the 18 year old thinks he's impressing him, he's actually pissing him off.

Andrea: Annoying them.

Takes a whole different kind of energy

Those electric scooters and bikes compared to something like a Harley. 

Mark: Yeah. And, and, and, and I guess the role of my, my role at the Ace is to manage that, is to manage that space. So tonight we know we're gonna get a load of puppies. So don't, so if you're an old guy, don't moan about the noise. Uh, and then going back to the guy nailing his R 1 M him to death, , if he pulls in, have a quiet word or have a, if, if he's not pulled in, have a quiet word with his peer group. Cause there will be a peer group, invariably a mate or two of his, um, have a word. Yeah. Behave there's a time and a place. And tonight, ain't it.

Andrea: I bet you've learned how to negotiate all kinds of different personalities over the years.[00:33:00] 

Mark: And, and, and, and, and most get it. Most get it. 

Andrea: There's something about the space itself that people respect. This communal feeling.

Mark: Cause that 17 year old knows that if he survives, he will turn into exactly the same as that, that big lump of 55 year olds who'll have the same interest. He won't be. Yep, yep. and 

Andrea: People are there for similar reasons, aren't they?

Mark: yes, yes. And similarly you're saying the 55 year old said, well, don't forget you to do that.

Andrea: Yeah. And maybe that's why they get annoyed

Mark: Yeah.

Yep,

Andrea: in part. And there was always this, uh, I mean, going back to the, history of the Ace, it's basically been around since motoring. It's, it was there in the thirties, right? As just one of the early stops 

Mark: yep. 

Andrea: ear, with automobiles. But then you mentioned the war, it actually got destroyed during the Second World War.

Right.

Mark: Right. It was the railway bridges nearby, which they missed and coincidentally flattened the Ace. No, no. [00:34:00] Goring didn't send his luftwaffe. Come and get the ace. No.

Andrea: No, but it was connected to the roads, so I guess Yeah.

Mark: And all the, the seven railway bridges right by the cafe. If, if they got, if they got those, that would've been a major problem. But they entirely missed. But interesting the roadside motoring because, motoring per se, absolutely changed society , I'll say Henry Ford with his model T over here, austin seven. It is the Austin seven. We had the baby Austin, but it absolutely the accessibility of vehicles in that immediate pre-World War II period. Motoring absolutely changed social mores

because 

Andrea: Before when you wanted to go get escape, right, go away, you had to take the train and you were sort of moved 

Mark: Yeah, 

Andrea: from A to B, and then now what you're talking about is where each individual can [00:35:00] decide for themselves, whether it's with a car on a, on a bike,

Mark: Not just that either. I, I'm thinking of the social mores of there would be a chaperone invariably be, be, be a chaperone. It wasn't the done thing. Um, you might meet opposite sex at certain things. But the social, that all changed with the accessibility , with cars being so accessible to the middle classes 

That didn't happen before the first World War. It happened. From like late twenties and in particular in this country, in, in the 1930s where it becomes built premises with this then new road network that had been built.

The arterial road network, a forerunner of Britain's today's motorway system, this new road network. There was buildings designed as, motoring stops [00:36:00] for lunchtime traffic. So you have a table and, and swish places. A lot of these were really swish places, sort of with architecture, redolent of the great liners of that era. . The Ace is kind of on that ocean liner style, streamline modern. You also had on those arterial routes to coastal destinations. Um, huge premises built where coach parties go stop for lunch on the way to that seaside so totally changed. Not just physically.

It changed what was accepted socially and post World War ii, where, where owning a vehicle became accessible to greater numbers of the working class and in particular to this baby boom of teenagers. Indeed, another social moral has changed it, as you just [00:37:00] described. The, um, individual, as it were, albeit peer group, rather than, I'm gonna do this, it's invariably a peer group thing that you and your mates are gonna do something, um, a, a total transformation in a period of about 50 years.

And the ACE was built in 1938 as a wholly new motoring concept. Really nothing like it had previous existed where you had a cafe, a filling station, a gas station, motor workshops, and motor showrooms. It was huge. The cafe was only , an element of that. 

Andrea: An event space, a real destination, A 

Mark: Huge. Absolutely huge. On a one of Britain's busiest stretches of the road on which there was no speed limits and all the traffic, the road had been specifically designed that is the North Circular, so that [00:38:00] the heavy truck traffic didn't go into the city because until the advent of the North Circular Road, the trucks going in and outta the Port of London, were all going through the city of london. 

Andrea: that road was actually built to,

Mark: Alleviate

that is completely clogged up.

The city was completely clogged up.

Andrea: Ah.

Mark: Uh, and then when you get to post World War ii and the gradual, again, going to the change of society, the teenage move from the Ton Up to the Mod the mod and the modernist's 

Andrea: rebuilt the Ace. Right? Not too long after the war went, because all 

Mark: yeah. 

Andrea: right? So cars, everything was coming back. A lot more motorization. So it was 1949, the Ace was rebuilt beautiful place. Quite a unique place.

Mark: Some think of it as art deko, which is not quite correct, but I've come to understand that it's a style known as Streamlined Moderne, it is relevant of the great ocean liners of [00:39:00] that period. It's Bauhaus. It's Kobu, it's a streamlined module. It's a very particular. Functional look that's relevant of, um, the decks and the space that you'd sit the overall space, not the decoration of the ocean liners of the 1930s in the 1950 as it were.

 What adds to that is if you see the Áce, all that glass at the front of the Ace is directly south facing and it overlooks, it's a little bit higher than the car park in front of the cafe and in front of the car park, east, west as it were, you've got the North circular road, so if you are in the cafe, you can see who's in the car, partner who's on the road, and if you're on the road going past, you can see whose motors in the, is a direct connection . And if you've come traveled through London Yeah. Crowded, busy streets and big [00:40:00] buildings and all the rest of it, you get to the Ace and into that car park and because of that, the topography there, Of south facing over roads.

Now the new, beyond the old road, you've got the new, I call it urban motorway. You've got this fantastic sensation of space in what otherwise is massive metropolitan area full of 10, 12 million people in this tiddly little space. At the Ace, y ou've got this feeling of the enormity of space and that that's kind of a relaxing, chilling, sensation that can, can get me as the old bloke. Anyway, when I get down there, ah, this is wild. Nice. In the sun,

Andrea: it reminds me of the sports metaphors or the, , places of like communal worship or coming 

Mark: Yep. That's it. 

Andrea: about the space, right? Where you feel connected inside, outside. I don't know.

There's something spatially special I've heard.[00:41:00] 

But how did you end up in that communal space? How did you become part of it? 

 How did you end up being part of the rebirth 

it's becau 

Mark: rebirth 

Andrea: of the Ace?

Mark: well it, it, it, it is very much to do with the, interest in bikes and rock and roll and to, and, and the hotrods and whatnot. You know, I had a 32 4, I had a 32 3 window, four

Andrea: Oh,

Mark: big wheels, and I've, I've got 67 SS Chevell. Um,

Andrea: Were you doing Choppers stuff like this too, or were you

Mark: no, not

Choppers 

Andrea: Not in that world. In the real classic world

Mark: choppers aren't about speed, that's all about, I don't know what it's about.

There's a lot of noise, but it, it's not my, it's not my thing. I can see what people do and I know friends are in that kind of stuff, but it's not

for me. 

Andrea: you were in this very classic Yes. Like the 

Mark: I wanna say classic, uh, yeah, I love the classic machines, but I love speed. So yeah. I've had, you know, bike I ride most of the times, uh, uh, RS Street Triple, [00:42:00] so it's full

face lead and 

Andrea: so many close calls

Mark: it's speed. And as I've got older, it's harder and harder to start old bikes kickstart.

Going back to Ace, it, it's with that peer group with a shared interest, 

Andrea: You were riding with a motorcycle group back in the eighties and nineties, you were part of this group of riders and your shared interest in hotrods and motorcycles that eventually led you to the ACE. 

Mark: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah. 

Andrea: the cars. You are, 

Mark: A a 

Andrea: of this community of . of Bikers or, um, you were part of this community of, of, of bikers and you're going from place to place, but the ACE had closed again by then, or it had changed a bit, but you used to ride by it. I think it was still like an auto shop. The building was still there. And. Yeah during this time you were organizing a lot of events already right sort of things like you would eventually be doing at the Ace these big car events and motorcycling events. 

Mark: Yes. Yeah. And, [00:43:00] and in particular with the bikes, I became Mr. Organizer. , I can't think where the first taste of coming over into Europe on a bike. But then say it's fucking brilliant. The bikes are racing at the Dutch TT or the island man. And gradually I'm then organizing more and more friends. This is all obviously before mobile phones and Internets and emails. And I, and I, and I organized, you know, perhaps 30 of us to go to the Dutch TT. That's where we'll meet what the route is, giving everybody a route route thing. We'll meet here and we're gonna, , Mr. Organizer and that, that is going to Dutch TT or the Mann TT or

Andrea: wow you went to Isle of Mann that's a whole other story, but, okay.

Mark: all over the place. And as Mr. Organizer, and with this one observation, it's also that same peer group with [00:44:00] bikes in his interest , we'd go off to meet up at least once a week and that'd be of an evening race through London from, rock and a a Rock & Roll venue, which was bikes and cars, parking all around that as well. Up in Camden or more accurately, Morning Crescent, which is Batman of Camden. Then when that finished, And hardly every anybody drink on a bike either, which I've come to realize now is you, you buy a bottle of beer, you perhaps drink the neck, but you're not interested in it. And what I've come to understand now is that, um, alcohol kills adrenaline.

Andrea: That's true.

Mark: So none of us were be, you know, drinking it when that's closed at 11, then we would race down, through Central London to um, SoHo and Bar Italia, [00:45:00] which is a coffee, place right in Central London. And that's just as all the theaters are emptying and the rest of it. So you'd be posing about with you little bikes and all these girls around and all rest of it, et cetera.

And then after I'd say 40 minutes of that, it's then down to, Chelsea Bridge and the tea stall it's all changed now you've got security things, you've got cameras, you've got all sorts. You can't do what was once done. 

Andrea: And the ACE was still out there on the North Circular road still sitting there and it's beautiful architecture, but it wasn't being used as a cafe. It was more like an auto shop. . So you could 

Mark: yeah. 

Andrea: and sit 

Mark: You, you can sit, look at a building and go, oh, it'd be great if, if. And the key bit is in the tail end of 93 at Triumph Owners, a meeting of the Triumph National Club. And um, guy there who used to go to the Ace was sort of [00:46:00] mocking me and my friends for our black leather jackets and all that. Those wannabe Rockers cuz he is a real one from then.. Yeah. You love when he Ace rubbish, don't you, blah blah. He says to me, knowing I'm Mr. Organizer, I realize now, um, do you know when he Ace shut? No, I dunno. When it's shut. I can just about remember it when it was open, going past it and dad's car or van or something.

Um, Then he is taken a Mickey used lot, dunno what you're talking about. Da da da. Then he said, when it shot in September 69, think about it. I said, say what? He shot in 69. What about it? Think about it. Think about it. So he then leaves me there thinking about it and a few moments later I've realized that um, the following year, 94, it'll be [00:47:00] 25 years since it's shut.

Andrea: Twenty-five years after the ACE cafe had shut after the heyday of the Mods and Rockers in the fifties and sixties and seventies, it had shut.. Um but so it was now an auto shop but you thought hey maybe the cafe should open again

Mark: And it's, that is the light bulb ah, reunion. Ah, I gonna say, ah, I've got it. Yeah. He says yeah, yeah, yeah. Will, will. I said I'll organize that. It's dead easy because at that time I was a serving copper and I knew two other serving coppers, because of their interest in bikes who were traffic cops.

Yeah. And the traffic unit at that time had a big depot, not a police station, but like a traffic police place just by Hangar Lane, which is just up the road from the Ace. I'll speak to them cuz they're gonna want this to happen and um, I'll organize it. [00:48:00] So having got me little thoughts around that, that evening I'm thinking yeah, I'll speak to Ian.

I'll speak to Trigger, avoid the local police cause there'll only be problems. I can do that. So I've got that. I say filed him in mind. Now that's gonna happen and it's then I'm thinking, this is gonna be , huge.

There'll be thousands come and it's at that stage. I then go to myself, excuse my language again, fuck me. This is the key to reopening it. This is gonna be a big thing. So that, that all happened that night at Triumph Owners, this conclusion that this has got to happen. 

Andrea: have seen it coming. It just hit you and, but once 

Mark: Yeah. And that's it. That's what I'm gonna do.

Um, and it has to be done.

Andrea: Do you believe in something like fate like that you were supposed, that was a thought was gonna come to you no matter what? Or does it look more 

Mark: I dunno. I, I believe in luck I say I believe in, it's not quite the right term. Um, [00:49:00] I accept that, that it's luck, it's fate. Uh, I do sort of subscribe to that. . But it could have been anybody. It could have been anybody else. Cuz I'm of a. I, I'm just typical of, of an age group of a social group, and it just happened to be me.

That's,

Andrea: . It's kind of found the right person. This idea, the person who could actually make it happen.

Because, uh, this reunion and then reopening the ACE turned into a very big events, like thousands and thousands of people came. 

Mark: , to this day, people put on and say oh he never thought this number would turn up and I'd say, how do you think all these mobile toilets got here and all those crowd barriers, do you think, I didn't realize what this meant?

 I'm from this world of motorbikes and motors and rock roll bump. I know where that, that's gonna mean to people. So yeah, 

Andrea: that reunion, was it just packed with people? Did everyone 

Mark: I was, there's at least [00:50:00] 12,000 bikes

and we were very lucky you got this old road in front of the cafe already mentioned, and this then new urban motorway, which hadn't quite been completed or so with the local traffic police getting involved, it was brilliant cuz they said that, uh, bikes can park here, here. So the area absorbed all this, which today with all the rules and rubbish that we've got around everything now, that, that would not happen. That could not happen. Um,

Andrea: so you had this reunion. It was a huge hit, I think, as I remember, everyone then really wanted the Ace to reopen. 

Mark: yes. 

Andrea: and then you just went at it, you just found, found the money, found the backers, found a way to make it happen. 

Mark: Yeah. Oh, goodness me. Well, first off, I persuaded people who owned the place to sell it um,, again, help through the peer group, [00:51:00] you know, peer group and bike, Rock and roll, whatever.

You find out that that guy's a dustman, but that guy's an architect

Andrea: You 

Mark: and one of the guys. Yep. 

Andrea: in the 

Mark: A a and outline plans we could very kindly done for us. They got submitted. And it got approved. Luckily they got approved

yes. That, that got approved.

Andrea: all the ordinances.

Mark: And, is that stage that then it's rush around to try and find money to come up with, to buy the blooming thing. But it was relatively easy looking back because we got a, what's called was then called a commercial mortgage, and the tire company had been in there for many years, was a national company. They had just renewed their lease for a further 25 years.

So although I had to come up with a deposit, quite a significant deposit, [00:52:00] their basically, I'll call it rent paid the mortgage. Whew.

Andrea: Another puzzzle piece fit. That's what I mean. I know fate's kind of a heavy word, but it just seems like it was the right moment. You took it. Everything sort of fit together. 

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: been nearly 20 years. It's still going. Not only that, you have franchises 

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: or less, and now it's almost like even people like me, everyone knows what the, everyone knows the Ace Cafe. Even if you don't know exactly what it is, you kind of hear it, you know it. So it's quite something that outta that, that little moment of decision. Everything fit together. And

Mark: It's all created at that, at that very early moment. 

Andrea: It was actually also already the motoring community that came together and kind of used their own skills to get it going.

Mark: yeah. Well, a, a chunk were kind of, um, I don't say perhaps more my world, this sounds a bit gratuitous in some ways, but I'll say [00:53:00] sort of working classy, um, types. Then another chunk of that same overall peer group was, more arts people, ? And out of that is outta that, it's outta that mix of the two, the, the graphics and the doers and whatnot.

Andrea: You 

Mark: Um, 

Andrea: You had all you needed. And Linda, your wife, I hear she's also a big part of the 

Mark: for sure abs. Absolutely. Well, none, none of it been possible with, without her, 

in. So Is it Goodness mate.

Yes. 

Andrea: the communication and everything too. And so you were with the helping each other from the beginning

Mark: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely. Abso

Andrea: over these 20 years, you've had so many different events. I couldn't even imagine trying to list them, but 2001 is when you opened it full on. 

Mark: Full, full Monty I called it. Yes. So

Full whole thing. But that, that first car club, basically like, all [00:54:00] clubs, whatever they are. Fishing clubs, car clubs, bike clubs, when they first sort of get together and there's dynamic drive and passion, it it's brilliant. And then as the years go by, kid start arriving as it were in, , in the groups.

Andrea: Yeah, everybody starts raising families and doing all the thing, but now they've all come back again. So it's kind of like what you were talking about. 

That thing of home you were talking about. There's this 

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: everybody can kind of come back to, even over the years, it might seem like everyone's drifted apart and , the story is lost the narrative, but then you have this place this continuing continuous actual place 

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: it keeps the narrative going.

Right? The Ace is part of that, but also, I mean, it is part of creating that. And then you also have this tie to the very beginning of motoring. 

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: How do you see the future with all of this? Like we've been talking about, speed and acceleration, but we've also been talking a lot about community and the people [00:55:00] around you.

And I don't know, when you think about motoring in the future, do you think these same things continue?

Mark: So motor vehicles are being designed out from the ground up. Now, this is where the unknowns are. I venture around electric stuff because electric scooters, they're illegal to use , in the public domain except in test bouroughs, like, I can't know where that is now, but

it's certainly not, 

Andrea: London Street, they're illegal now.

Mark: they're illegal except in very specific what they're calling test zones..

And those scooters have to come from t ffl or wherever it is operating a thing, but they're endemic everywhere. Similarly with electric push bikes everywhere. And of course they can keep those in a flat, you can, you know, lift them. So

although 

Andrea: for 

Mark: yeah, so low, everything's changing and it's designing out [00:56:00] private motor vehicles, as the world already already said, youngsters are getting these E vehicles and e Scooters and e push bike things.

So the motor I'll say of social change is there, but the outcomes won't be much different from what history shows us is that they'll want to get together, they'll want to lark about and show off, and there'll be a fashion scene with it. There'll be a music scene with it, and that will just, I believe, continue add infinitum.

The craft that Ace has to be able to manage into the future is going to be increasingly young electric stuff, which is a change. Cause , the legislation at the moment

and older, older guys who do like their, like to fill their belly. So it's managing those two quite different

Andrea: Do you 

Mark: things. 

Andrea: forward? Do you see a way for that to happen? might [00:57:00] be, yeah. 

Mark: It, it's a hard work. It, 

Andrea: that you care

Mark: I think, I think, oh, that, that, that, that I think is reasonably straightforward. The headaches are then thrown in with the, workforce headaches, which you may have read about and be aware of. I, I don't know. But post Brexit,

Andrea: mm-hmm.

Mark: we don't have, uh, the, the workforce and, and to, to illustrate this where, where we all have, um, deliveries on on a weekly basis. For instance, from the brewery barrels of beer, bottles of beer and bottles of, uh, fizzy pop with some sort or whatever it is they do. And, um, then realize, actually we haven't got any barrels of that and we haven't got any. Then you chase up, oh, well the, the, we've got no forklift drivers at the depot, or sorry, we haven't got deliver this week cause we've got no drivers.

So the whole logistic chain that I say feeds us is completely bug up for all the same reasons as, as I've just [00:58:00] related do is staffing and whatnot.

Uh, uh 

Andrea: whatever problems we're gonna face in terms of all of these issues that you're talking about now, that will be sort of the problem that the motoring community has to solve

Mark: oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's not just Ace. This is, this is a, a societal problem that, in this instance, my nation is grappling with and we're gonna send refugees to Rwanda, it's completely nuts. And I'll go further and say it's absolutely hypocritical what we are, what we are doing.

How does this thing appear on your plate? It's not magic. There's people involved in it.

Andrea: If you, if you had kind of the perfect future for the Ace, what would it be for you? What do you see? Do you see a nice transition into this electric or other forms of motoring, that actually could solve some of these problems you've just discussed, or would you like to see it just continue as it is?

Mark: It, , it cannot continue as [00:59:00] it is.

Andrea: Okay.

Mark: And, and thinking of that, of the consumption of, um, as much as I love petrol and whatnot, and it won't continue, we are going through agonies of a period of change. But we've, as societies, we've managed and gone through those umpteen times before 

, and I suspect the, the, petrol burning engine will go the same way as horses in as much, it'll be two polar extremes of society that will have them, they're super rich and those that don't give a monkeys, uh, , I'm over it a bit here, but two extremes and nothing in the middle.

And of course, if you look at photos of cities in, in 1880s, 1890s, they're stuffed full [01:00:00] with traffic jams and it's all horse-drawn. And you go back and look at those same cities 30 years later, they've got traffic jams full of, particularly in America, for full of cars. So we've had these transitions before, uh, and I'm sure they've always been, they've been a headache. You know, what, what are those stable adss gonna do? Hmm. Ah, get a job in one of these new things called a garage, etc. So you've been through it all before. Uh,

and 

Andrea: see this as another one of those transitions.

Mark: it's all it is and, and, and, and is one we've got to embrace. We, , we can't, you know where, where I happen to live in North London, fourth floor in a block of flats at the top of a hill. I look from one window I can see across London to the South Downs on a day like we have today. Nice, clear, sunny day.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Mark: But at dawn and at dusk on nice, clear, sunny days, you can see the pollution as, the sun transitions, [01:01:00] you know, moves through, there's a light moves. You can see it when it gets high in the sky, you can't see it.

But it's not like, um, smoke one would associate with chimney stacks and factories because it's such small fine stuff, but you can see it, it's as black as can be. And it goes,

Andrea: deny 

Mark: no, it, it's there. You can see it in certain light conditions and it's killing us. And we're all in, it's like, I don't deny these, this is this or the road's gonna kill me.

I get it.

Andrea: Mm-hmm.

Mark: Yeah. 

Andrea: see what you mean. You just clear-eyed about the choices that 

Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, and this is affecting mankind. This is affecting mankind and we've gotta route to get away from it. Yeah. There'll be other problems with it and we'll find out that electricity is, I don't know, makes everybody's hair fall out or something. I I dunno what it's gonna do, but there will be other problems come along.

Andrea: this 

Mark: Just, just 

Andrea: this communal meaning and need that we've [01:02:00] been discussing will continue and we'll have to, 

Mark: Absolutely, absolutely. 

Andrea: address that, I guess, 

Mark: Yeah. The Romans had problems with youngsters racing through the forum. That's 2000 years ago. That's documented and documented ever since there's been, for London, it's been the London apprentices, it's been, it is the, it's the same age group throughout history. They wanna go fast, they wanna whizz about, and they wanna be with their mates and yeah. I, trust that rhythm are gonna be competent enough to ensure the ACE is able to be that place, uh, into the future.

Andrea: Well, I think it will be, and it'll be interesting to see how it changes too, and how it also remains this kind of, um, narrative of the heritage of that change over time from the very beginning to wherever we end up.

Mark: Mm-hmm.

Andrea: Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been really nice to talk to you

Mark: And it's been really rather therapeutic for me. 

Andrea: [01:03:00] been therapeutic. That's a good word for it. Maybe that's the, the new motoring.

Mark: Yes.