Embracing equity in financial services

Celebrating International Women's Day 2023, we bring to you an enlightening Celebrating International Women's Day 2023, we bring to you an enlightening conversation with industry veterans. Samantha Hawkins, Praemium's Head of Sales for Southern Regions, engages in a rich dialogue with Katerina Nicolakopoulos, the driving force behind Eikon Financial, and Widiana Setiawan, a seasoned Senior Private Wealth Advisor at Shaw & Partners.

They delve into their unique journeys navigating the financial services industry, highlighting the significant benefits of maintaining a harmonious balance between male and female advisors. Together, they reflect on inspiring strategies to encourage a new generation of women to explore this promising career avenue, emphasizing the critical role of robust internship initiatives, effective coaching schemes, and defined career roadmaps tailored specifically for female graduates.

Furthermore, the trio underscores the necessity of promoting financial literacy among women, along with the active involvement of families in financial decisions. This episode transcends their individual narratives; it aims to foster diversity and propagate success within the financial services realm. Listen now and let Katarina and Wydiana share with you their success stories and valuable insights.

Transcript

Samantha Hawkins : 0:03

Hi everyone. My name is Samantha Hawkins. I'm head of sales here at premium and today we're really pleased to be able to introduce you to two fantastic women from our network Katarina Nicolokopoulos, who is the founding partner of Econ Financial, a fantastic financial advice firm here in Melbourne. Katarina's been in our industry for over 26 years now, and Wydianna Setiwan, who is a senior private wealth advisor at Shoreham Partners, who has had over 15 years experience in the financial services industry. Thank you for joining me and welcome. That's our pleasure.

Widiana Setiawan: 0:32

Thank you all, have a good one.

Samantha Hawkins : 0:34

Now we are talking today in honour of International Women's Day, and the theme of International Women's Day this year is around equity and building equity within our profession, which I think all three of us here are very passionate about building equity within our organisations and our financial profession in general.

Samantha Hawkins : 0:51

We're going to talk about a little bit of background from Katarina and Wydianna where they've started, what led them to the financial career that they are on and the path that they're on and how they got here, maybe some hurdles they've had along the way, what they've learnt along the way, and then maybe some information around what they think we could do to encourage women and younger women in our organisations to follow the path that you maybe have done. So, first of all, just introducing each of you, you've both, as I said, some of the similarities in the background of your upbringing and the things that maybe lead you into financial services as a career. So, katarina, we'll start maybe with you. You started your own business with Econ a number of years ago. It's a very successful business with a really great loyal client base. Can you give us a little bit of background, I suppose, of what inspired you to take that step, because it's a really, you know it's a big move to start your own business. Obviously.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 1:45

It is, and thank you, samantha, for allowing us to come on and inviting us to speak about what our experiences are in the industry, given that it has been predominantly male dominated, and to be a representative of female and financial services. So, in terms of what led me firstly to the industry and then what led me to become an advisor, I initially growing up as a country kid to parents that had migrated from Greece, I really got little direction in relation to what career path I could choose. So I actually studied a very broad degree in business and when I graduated in 1996, queensland was in a very serious recession and there was peak unemployment and a lot of businesses shut down. So I actually, really just out of circumstance, came into financial services, albeit when I was at uni studying I had head to the library and look at the newspaper section and be interested predominantly in the financial services section and the stock market. So, lo and behold, I actually ended up in the industry.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 3:02

I don't know if that is by circumstance or chance, but essentially I was working on the other side of the fence advising advisors for 10 years in this corporate world and I was writing their strategies for clients to implement. I was auditing them to make sure that they were complying with our requirements and the legislative requirements. And then I went and managed the FSR transition which, for those of you potentially that are new insurance or considering financial services, was a major financial services reform across our industry, and that was a huge task to undertake. I was only 27-28 at the time and I suppose I got to peer into hundreds of businesses across Australia financial services businesses and I got to see first hand, working with these advisors, what worked well and what didn't work well. And it was a bit of a battle sometimes because we were dealing with an industry that wasn't tertiary educated, we were dealing with an industry that weren't quick to adapt to new technologies, and so what I was trying to impart. Sometimes you would battle it out with advisors, but I do want to always refer to the bell curve, because the masses are always sitting pretty and then you've got the outliers that you've got to work with, either the best or the worst, and then the rest in between.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 4:27

And so, as part of that experience with the corporate, I actually started working with an accounting firm that was trying to get their financial services up and running and they met their challenges, particularly because the client base of that accounting firm required expertise in some pretty complex taxation or self-managed super funds and the advisors that had come and gone really didn't understand those types of structures. So we stayed in touch and then a few about it. Basically, almost a year later I then joined the firm and I suppose the key reason to try this was to see whether or not everything that I was teaching these advisors over the course of the years and all the work that I was doing, whether or not I could actually apply it and could I do things better. In short, the two key reasons was to see whether or not I could apply the learnings and the teachings of the prior years in corporate and also to, most importantly really was to look after the clients once I was there and I was facing them and looking after them and playing the role of responsibility to manage their financial affairs.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 5:38

The purpose of branding at Econ was so Econ is the ancient Greek word for icon and basically we wanted to create a firm that was the new benchmark in the industry, so that advisors could see how we could do things differently and not sell. So our industry was predominantly based on selling product and selling, and we aligned the business very early on to be of service and to advise our clients.

Samantha Hawkins : 6:07

And, having worked with you for a few years now, I can say that that is definitely the feel that I get when I come into the Econ offices. It's definitely a full service and a supportive and really nice environment. So I think you've created what you set out to Thank you 16 years on Fantastic Witty. So a little bit of a different story or a different path that you've gone down, but, interestingly, some similarities in background to start with. So can you give us a little bit of a summary of what led you to Shorah Partners?

Widiana Setiawan: 6:37

Sure. So first of all, thank you for having me here. But my background is very similar to Kat in the sense that I came here when I was 13. Purely came here to study and I basically came with my two older sister and from basically when I came, which is grade 7, to finishing my year 12, I learned a lot and met a lot of people. I also very much grew up in a small country town and then I slowly moved towards the city.

Widiana Setiawan: 7:12

I went into Melbourne Uni to do my degree and it's a Bachelor of Science major in physics. After a year into the degree I thought you know, if I decide to go back to Indonesia to work, I need to look at some alternative, because it's very hard for me to find a job, especially as a woman, you know to work in physics field. So then I start rocking up first year of finance and commerce subject on my second year of physics and I loved it. I thought I'll give it a shot and I'm going to go back to my first year of physics. Here we are.

Widiana Setiawan: 7:47

I've been working in financial services for over 15 years and one of the motivation for me is that I love the customer interaction. I love to hear client telling me the story. You know their life experiences and they always give you good advice. You know, and then you take that on board and then you try to apply in your everyday life and try not to make the same mistake. But the other factor that make me to stay in financial services is the fact that I can help them solve their problem. I can provide solution based on the knowledge that I got and then at the same time I can add value to this relationship, you know, between the client and you know advisor services, advisor relationship. So for me that was my motivation to stay as a financial advisor.

Samantha Hawkins : 8:39

It is a very rewarding career, but interesting to see that you know, you feel you learn from your clients as well.

Samantha Hawkins : 8:44

I know I said a few tips along the way from my clients. Yeah, it was one thing that you know that has come up from both of you. I think when we were sort of chatting about this was the impact, coming from a similar background in ways in a rural community, parents who were maybe not in professional roles and not have the same opportunities that you've both been afforded, and the influence that your mothers had on the path that you ended up following. I know, witte you mentioned your mom was very encouraging in pushing your education and getting you through to uni. Do you think, like is that the case you think your mother's had an influence on where you are today and do you think that speaks to the broader influence of women in society and the influence that they have?

Widiana Setiawan: 9:26

Oh, absolutely. I think having someone to support you and, you know, to encourage you, especially when you know you're going through that teenagers, you know, and uncertainty period, period of your life, it's quite important. And my mom basically just said to me look, you know, go enjoy. You know, enjoy your study, enjoy your life. But back then the expectation for girls my age was to complete your study and settle down. And but for me, my mom said to me God, they, you know, have a career, make a name of yourself and do it whatever you want, you know. And so for me that itself is quite a bit of encouragement for me to move where I am today Fantastic.

Samantha Hawkins : 10:14

And Katarina, I know you said you felt the same with your mom. She really wanted more for you than what she had achieved with her life. Academically, not personally necessarily.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 10:23

Definitely Well, I think, with my mother. She wanted more for all three of us. She always encouraged us to continue on to university. There was actually sort of no choice for us and that she saw as a new migrant was the way out of, you know, an agrarian lifestyle which is very, very labor intensive and it's a tough life, Although it was a really beautiful childhood and I think in terms of growing up in the country, yes, like there is definitely a sense of community and that's probably influenced us in how we work and having a nice community around us. I feel like our team and our clients feel that community and family.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 11:04

What I did learn was that work, ethic and resilience. So you learn. I think I pretty much got the double whammy, so you could easily look at me as the victim of unfortunate circumstances in my childhood, but in fact and I often played that role as well earlier in my career but when you become introspective and look back at those times, you actually realise that that's brought you to the life that you have today. So you've got that resilience. You need that work ethic.

Samantha Hawkins : 11:33

So resilience, I think, is something that is obviously an attribute that you've both inherited from your parents and I'm sure has contributed to the career path that you've taken and the successes you've had in your careers. But if you think about all the other attributes that are important to the role of in financial services and financial advice in general, or more specifically I should say, what do you think are the other attributes and skills, regardless of gender male, female that are important in the role of a financial advisor, we do you think it maybe start with you for that one.

Widiana Setiawan: 12:05

Yeah. So for me, I always believe, like as an advisor, the most important thing is to listen, to listen to what your client have to say. I have this rule to talk less, so I would get my client to talk about themself 80% of the time and I would then talk about 20% of the whole conversation, and at the same time, I also like to get to know them, and not just them it as an individual, but their families, you know. Because when it come to advice, I think, like all under relationship, it is important for you to build that trust, to build a long life, long relationship, you know. And then the other thing that I think is quite important is that regular communication, understanding what they want, what they are looking for. So that is the main thing that you should have as an advisor.

Samantha Hawkins : 12:57

Absolutely, and it is difficult, especially when you are in a role where a lot of your role is teaching you have to educate your clients in what you are recommending for them so you do have to talk a lot so step back and make sure you listen. Sometimes it is a difficult thing to do, katarina anything further to add to that as far as skills and attributes.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 13:15

Yes, absolutely so. I definitely agree with Witte in relation to communication. I think that communication is critical. Einstein said that if you cannot teach it to a six year old, you have not mastered your topic and your subject, and I suppose that really comes in terms of that mastery of being able to articulate to a client the advice that you wish for them to implement.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 13:42

The second most critical element in terms of being good at our profession is definitely knowledge, in a sense of making sure that you understand the financial markets, but you also understand monetary policy and fiscal policy and geopolitical events and all of those aspects that you need to be aware of to be able to manage finances. So really, having been in the industry now 26 years, I have certainly gained the knowledge which I needed to in terms of being able to navigate through our regulatory and taxation systems and the investment markets. But then you learn so much more through experience as well. I have experienced the Asian crisis, the GFC, obviously COVID, that hit and so through that it better prepares you in terms of managing money, particularly when it is such a huge financial responsibility that you have.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 14:37

Two most important things in life is your health and your financial position. So we wear this with a huge sense of responsibility in terms of what we do. So, in short, I think it is definitely knowledge, communication and the people is critical. So working with the right people can either make your life easy and your clients' outcomes great or not. And definitely introspection, so being able to know potentially what you have not done well and being humble in that and always looking to improve and I think that that is what builds a great business, that is what builds great advice and I think that that is actually important for everybody, even through all aspects of life is that introspection and being able to look inwards and identify your strengths and your weaknesses.

Samantha Hawkins : 15:33

And it is probably not something a strength that a great many people have, I think, generally in the community at ease. It is difficult, very difficult, to be completely honest with yourself and look back and think what you could have done better or differently. But yeah, I completely agree with that as an importance. So we think about that. Those are obviously general attributes and skills that are important and obviously knowledge is important, and listening to your clients to understand what they need and being able to communicate to them so they clearly understand the advice that you are providing. So we think about in the theme of International Women's Day Are there any attributes specifically that women do you think are stronger at or is more natural to women in our industry? And that's the strength that we bring to the financial services industry. So maybe, witte, I'll start with you on that one.

Widiana Setiawan: 16:20

Yeah, I think creativity certainly is one of the skill that we bring. We're looking at different ways when it comes to managing the portfolio, so I think, in the sense that having a male and female advisor to have that balance in the workforce certainly really helps me anyway. But women tend to be a bit more looking at outside the bigger picture, what can we do, plan ahead that's what we're really good at, and also the fact that I think one of the points that Kat mentioned looking at investment. That is, I think, so different to the normal investment shares and all that, and that was really good idea and we should. There is a lot of opportunity out there. It's just a matter of identifying them.

Samantha Hawkins : 17:14

Yeah, using that creativity. And it's interesting point that you know there are strengths in that male and female have different strengths not always, but it can stand apart, and it's bringing both of those strengths together. That's probably the best combination. So the equity of those is what we're looking for.

Widiana Setiawan: 17:33

What I experience in the workforce. First, this is where I am now having that male advisor. There it's given me more practical view and to learn from that, and a lot of the advisor at Shores. Actually they really really help like sharing, they like to share, they like to share their knowledge. So also I'm learning a lot from them. So, touching base to what you said before, it is, at the end of the day, having that good balance of having male advisor and female advisor is quite important. It makes you to become a better advisor as well.

Samantha Hawkins : 18:11

Yeah, absolutely, and I know it's probably no surprise to anyone that Shores, being a stock breaking firm, is quite a male dominated environment. But I know, in speaking to you over the period of time that I've known you, it's certainly been a positive experience for you.

Widiana Setiawan: 18:25

Indeed.

Samantha Hawkins : 18:26

And not necessarily that it's been any negatives and you've had other experiences in other roles that weren't necessarily male dominated Correct that weren't as positive. So yes all very much on the same page there that it is good and bad yin and yang and in everything and in everyone, and certainly in our team. Here are some of our strongest analytical team members women.

Samantha Hawkins : 18:51

And it's not always the case, but certainly I think sometimes we can generalize and pull a few of those things out. The important thing, I guess, as we're talking about, is the equity of different skill sets, different people, different backgrounds, and all the benefits that we bring because of that.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 19:08

I love that point because, when it comes to hiring somebody new at ECON, we've always followed the philosophy that have to be different. They can't be the same as everybody else. And I think, even though we've got a small team, we've got a smart team and we've got a productive and efficient and highly qualified and each balance the other route in terms of their strengths and weaknesses.

Samantha Hawkins : 19:30

So I know there's difficulty in bringing females in, and what do you think we need to do, then, to encourage more women to consider financial services as a career option? I know, witte, you're particularly passionate about providing financial advice to women, and I know you focus on women who may be have been through a separation or some sort of financial hardship, and trying to bring them and help them to gain financial independence and knowledge. I think, probably, women are in a better position to do that for the women that are in a vulnerable position, so it is important that we have women advisors available. For that reason, what do you think we can do to get the word out there that this is a great industry for women to work in and to encourage more women to consider it?

Widiana Setiawan: 20:14

I think being a female advisor, you know you have to first of all love the job. By the same time, if we have more like internship, you know, more coaching, as well as more, a bit more clear career path within the company, so that a lot of the graduate will understand what's you know, what is there to expect, you know. At the same time, having a female senior as a mentor or someone to talk to is quite important. But I am, you're right, I am quite passionate, especially in closing that gap and in the female financial literacy. So for me, I think women in the past has always been giving that responsibility to the breadwinner, you know, and they just basically just sit aside and just watch.

Widiana Setiawan: 21:07

But what I want to, what we are slowly starting to see, is women, our generation, starting to step up, you know, trying to understand, try to take on a bit more responsibility in the family, you know, and it's good for to see, you know, more engagement and a lot of my meeting with my client, appointment with my client, I try to get both of their thoughts in terms of, you know, the financial advice that I share with them or I provide them, rather than just one person.

Widiana Setiawan: 21:39

Try to understand what is their concern. You know, from both sides, you know, and then that way, they both engage, they know exactly what's going on. It's more it's not so much being you know, giving them freedom of independence, it's just more the fact that if anything happened to your spouse, you know, you are aware of what's going on and that you can work together as a team to back each other up. You know, but at the same time, those that may be coming out from a really bad relationship, you know they also need a bit more you know, independence in terms of managing their finance, knowing what to do, and so, yeah, that's where my passion is.

Samantha Hawkins : 22:20

Kat my response yeah, what do you think?

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 22:22

Well, first of all, let me preface it by saying it's certainly not a glamorous job. Oh stop, it's not. It is, I mean, but it's very rewarding. It's just so rewarding, I mean, if you think about again what I said before, the two most important things a person needs in life is great health and financial security, and so if you can play a role in helping people with their financial circumstances, it's such a critical role. And if you love learning and reading, it's like I said before you've got to read everything You've got to have, and so you get to absorb as much as possible. You get to work with amazing clients, Like you said, Witty I mean what an eclectic group that I've been working with for the last 16 years, but these are incredible people that have achieved a lot.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 23:13

I've really broadened out into the investment piece outside of the strategy taxation piece. So I think if you're caring and you're smart, like this is an amazing industry to work in and, like I said, the rewards are just. I mean, you can't. There's no price on those rewards in terms of what you can do to help, especially for Witty, and I've worked with women as well that have had their husbands manage their financial affairs their entire life, and so they need their hand held in direction and to ensure that, again, they can afford to continue living their lifestyle and what they want for themselves.

Samantha Hawkins : 23:53

Yeah, absolutely. I mean very interesting just that conversation, the things that came out about the positives and why would someone want to do this role One of the things I do personally miss about financial advice and actually being an advisor even though I'm still in the industry. I miss a lot of my clients. They become friends or family over time. But that reward when you realize you've worked something out and they can achieve what they're wanting to achieve, it is a wonderful feeling to feel that you've helped.

Samantha Hawkins : 24:21

And I think, from Witty what you said, what you learned from your clients it is financial, it is an analytical type of role. You do need to have that sort of background and knowledge and, I guess, of interest in the financial markets, but it's a service role. You know, really, if someone's thinking that I'm more that way, well, you certainly would get that out of a role in financial services. So I think, look, to finish up, what would you both think that we need to do as an industry to encourage women into financial services, into financial advice but into financial services overall? What's the type of things we've talked about? All the benefits and the good parts of the role and how your experience has led you to where you are, and I don't think either of you would say that you've. You know we've all had hurdles, but neither of you in my knowledge have really ever experienced anything particularly negative. It's not saying it's always easy. What do you think we need to do, then to encourage women into our industry.

Katerina Nicolakopoulos: 25:27

The reality is like I don't want to sugarcoat anything Like so in terms of women entering the industry, or any industry for that matter. It's not easy, but just having that, the confidence, the courage, the conviction and doing what you want to do is important you know, I don't know if you want to get back to that, would you?

Widiana Setiawan: 25:47

I agree. I think, like you know every hardship that you come across in any career, just don't focus, don't get yourself distracted, Just keep on going. Like I always say to myself, you know you are the master of your own destiny. You know you decide what you want to do. At the same time, when it comes to life, you always have a choice whether you decide to take that criticism and make the best out of you, or you can dwell on it and just keep. You know, holding yourself back. But yeah, keep on going.

Samantha Hawkins : 26:17

I said just stay focused and I think that's something that you said when we've been discussing this podcast was that the main thing that we can do as women in the industry is to talk about our roles and get the message out there that you know there's a lot of good and there's a lot of diversity in this industry, different paths that you can take. So I think this podcast has hopefully been a step in the right direction for that to let women, young women out there, know what the type of options that are available to very successful women who have had different careers and ended up in a slightly different path, but both giving a great deal of service to the clients that they look after, a huge amount of support and confidence and self-belief, I think, to the clients, and that can't be overstated the importance of what you bring to your clients. So thank you both very much for your time, thank you for giving us your couple of hours, your afternoon, to record this with us, and I will see you both soon. Thank you.

Widiana Setiawan: 27:16

Thanks for having us.

Samantha Hawkins : 27:18

Pleasure.