Yoga + Talk Therapy = Transformative Mental Health

Transform your approach to mental wellness as Chris McDonald of Path to Hope Counseling reveals the profound impact of intertwining yoga and mindfulness with conventional counseling methods. Brace yourself for an enlightening episode where Chris, drawing from his wealth of knowledge in school counseling and holistic therapies, unpacks the art of nurturing the entire being to foster profound healing. We venture beyond the surface-level conversations, tapping into the dynamic duo of talk therapy and physical practices like Qigong and somatics that Chris leverages to assist clients in overcoming deep-seated barriers, particularly those formidable "CBT walls" erected by childhood trauma.

Dive headfirst into the synergy of mental health and physical activity, where we dissect how movement can be the antidote to the overthinking and rumination that plague so many, especially those with ADHD. Chris champions the potency of gentle confrontation in therapy and the transformative power of prescribing actionable "homework," ensuring that practices such as yoga and walking become more than fleeting encounters. The episode culminates by emphasizing the neurobiological necessity for community and how group exercises can provide the missing link to calmness and connection. For anyone seeking to explore yoga classes tailored for trauma-informed care, look no further—Chris's expertise and the Holistic Counseling Podcast stand ready as your guides, with additional resources detailed in our show notes.

www.pathtohopecounseling.com
https://holisticcounselingpodcast.com/
https://hcpodcast.org/selfcareworkbook

Be sure to visit BizRadio.US to discover hundreds more engaging conversations, local events and more.

Transcript

Aubrey: 0:05

Welcome to Kindred Conversations, the show shining a light on local mental health professionals, and today we're here talking to Chris McDonald, a local mental health professional who practices both counseling online but also yoga. And Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your practice? Welcome.

Chris: 0:27

Yes, thanks for having me. This is great to be here. Yeah, so I own Path to Hope Counseling in Raleigh, which is both telehealth and I have an in-person office one day a week in Raleigh. I see young adults who are experiencing anxiety, recovering from trauma or experiencing grief, depression, and I do see some older adults as well, and I also work with some therapists, provide some therapy for therapists, and I also have a podcast called the Holistic Counseling counseling podcast and also doing some course creation teaching therapists how to integrate yoga into clinical sessions. So that's part of what I do because I'm a holistic therapist. So I integrate yoga, mindfulness, meditation, breath work into sessions with clients, as well as brain spotting so I am so excited about the work that you do because I love yoga, me too.

Chris: 1:27

That's my passion, my love.

Aubrey: 1:29

How did you kind of like wind your way into what you're doing now? Was it yoga first? Was it counseling, like what?

Chris: 1:35

No, actually, to rewind, I was a school counselor for 16 years and I never thought I'd be on this path. Be honest, I actually have a degree in journalism and I was going to be a writer many years ago, but I do have books. I actually wrote books, self-care for the counselor, so I actually did do that, but I have a podcast, which I guess is journalism. Right, that's related. Yeah, but I started with breathwork. I started teaching clients breathwork when I was a school counselor because I found that talk therapy wasn't enough in the school system, even working with kids, and I found that they need something more, some of these hands-on tools.

Chris: 2:14

Then I kind of moved into the meditation realm and learned more about that this was before there were podcasts and all these online resources and actually learned from books. Imagine that there was no YouTube. I had to learn all this on my own and practiced and then actually found a Buddhism group to learn more about meditation. So I would go weekly and learn how to learn from others, about setting up my own weekly meditation practice. And then I moved into yoga. So it was kind of a progression for me and I got my certification in yoga in 2019, which was geared more towards behavior health professionals. It's called subtle yoga, and I just actually completed a 60 hour mindful movement training which incorporates Qigong, yoga and somatics'm, so I integrate also those into sessions um qigong practices with yoga with clients as well. Okay, I'm just like processing that's okay.

Chris: 3:12

It's a lot, but it's all a holistic realm. I treat the whole person so using these movement practices as an example, like the client I just saw was having trouble focusing right.

Chris: 3:24

So for people who are wondering what this could look like, and he's feeling foggy. So I was like, hey, I have a body-based practice, would you be interested? So one thing that we always do and I always teach other therapists this that we always have informed consent. So that means we always get informed consent each and every time before we use any movement practices, and I always teach for ethics and safety. So there's a lot of ethics involved with us, making sure that we're competent in what we're doing. We have scope of competence with us and I have the training. You know I've gotten all my supervision when I have mentors. You know all this in the field and you know making sure that clients want to do this, of course, because they can always opt out at any time. We keep it trauma informed, and so I taught him a Qigong practice about how to get more focused and centered and connected to his body. So just that's kind of something that I do in sessions. So is that?

Aubrey: 4:20

through, so some of it is through his breathing.

Chris: 4:26

Some of it is through and you're kind of guiding Yep yeah.

Aubrey: 4:28

You're kind of guiding him, so you're talking him through what he's doing.

Chris: 4:33

Yep, and this was a video session so he can see me. Yeah, and then I use the cues. So in yoga we have cues, so your methods.

Aubrey: 4:43

Your methods are different than traditional counseling methods because it involves a lot of coaching. It sounds like.

Chris: 4:49

Yeah, yeah, in some ways. Yeah, but it's integrated, so it's not like we don't do 53 minutes of yoga or Qigong, because that would be a yoga session class, right.

Aubrey: 5:00

Right so it's integrated.

Chris: 5:01

So we, you know, like today, we did like what? 40 minutes of talk therapy, figuring out what's going on for that day, and then we integrate. Then we did some movement practices and breath with it.

Aubrey: 5:12

Yeah, so it's more of like you're helping the client to see okay, this is something that you can do and this is maybe an assignment that I can give you. Yes, and that was homework. Yeah, so now they're practicing this and incorporating it into their day-to-day? Yep, okay and so your role as a coach is integrated into your role as a therapist, because the therapist, come, the therapy part comes first, where you're just processing through regular day-to-day kind of stuff.

Chris: 5:41

Yep, for sure, and it was perfect today because he was an exact client that I see, because he's had therapy for a while. So a lot of the clients that I see have had therapy for years, but they come to what I call the CBT wall. They've had traditional therapy but they're to the point where it's like, wait a second, I've only come so far and they feel like they've hit a wall that they can only get so much healing and they but they still have a lot of things that they know they need to still work on.

Aubrey: 6:09

Yeah.

Chris: 6:10

And cause I work a lot with childhood trauma, and so they know that they have to do more body-based stuff.

Aubrey: 6:18

So this is something that I've been wondering more about, and I've been talking to actually my massage therapist about he talks about yeah, he talks about how, like and I know that massage therapists, as well as like physical therapists, personal trainers, like people who do body-based work with people right, they know that when people are in certain positions, they move their body in certain ways that it releases and it can also hold certain things based on how and so I'm curious, like as a practitioner that does both, both yoga and therapy are you? Are there times when you're able to like, directly pinpoint okay, this is being held in this place and therefore we're going to do this thing, or is it more like, more of like a trial and error? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Chris: 7:10

Yeah, we can't always tell right Exactly in the session. Well, your childhood trauma is held in your shoulder. No, we don't always know right, but I use the body to say hey, you know, I notice as you talk about this, I see your shoulders going up. Do you notice that? And a lot of times they don't. They're like oh, they are. So let's take a moment and pause there, or like you can notice when people are walking.

Chris: 7:41

If they start walking on their toes that they're like nervous. Yeah, so it's bringing that body awareness. We call it interoception. So what is going on in the body? Because a lot of people disconnect from that, especially with trauma, because it's not been safe to be in the body. So let me just notice from my and I pause people in session too, because a lot of times people will talk and they'll just keep going right To avoid connecting with their body and emotion and I'll be like, okay, let's slow down for a moment.

Chris: 8:04

Let's just notice what's happening in the body. What sensations are you noticing right now? What is coming up for you? And we do what I call holistic check-ins. So let's notice your thoughts. Are your thoughts jumping from thought to thought or is it more calm in your mind? What emotions are coming up? You know I pause more than I'm doing right now. What emotions are coming up? You know I pause more than I'm doing right now. No-transcript. Are you feeling more tired? Are you more energetic right now? Any tension in the body? So we do body, what are called body scans, so kind of noticing from head to toe what's going on in the body. So really pausing, going a little bit slower than I'm doing right now with with clients to really connect, which is a different experience for a lot of people does that that make sense?

Aubrey: 8:53

Yeah, no, it makes so much sense.

Aubrey: 8:54

I'm thinking about how people may go through, like, years of therapy, and maybe I know what you're saying about the CBT wall, because I'm thinking about it in terms of like, well, yeah, it's like there's a certain point where I think there's a level of comfort that happens in therapy that when, like, there's no longer a challenging, that's happening.

Aubrey: 9:20

Or if there is a challenging, then maybe there's a way that, like, the client continually falls into the same patterns. A therapist and I think I admit this as a fault of my own as a therapist, and I think other therapists relate to this is that when you're working with someone for a certain period of time, then sometimes you can become complacent or blind to some patterns, right, and so it's something that we always have to stay vigilant to as therapists of like, are we losing track of where this case is going? Or we, you know, we always need to make sure that we're having fail safes around that, but I do think that the clients as well notice that, that there's like things are not changing, they're not getting better, they're not getting worse, and so, therefore, we need to figure out what's different and that different thing that you're bringing is this ability to live a life that is more connected to oneself.

Chris: 10:23

Yes, Connecting to the body right, because the body is left out, sometimes with talk therapy.

Aubrey: 10:31

Yeah, and I think about how much wisdom there is in the body. So much therapy. Yeah, and I think about how much wisdom there is in the bottom body. Yeah, that when we are disconnected from the body, like what? What? What do we notice? When people are disconnected from their bodies, what happens?

Chris: 10:46

Yeah, yeah, and and that happens a lot, right, people and I say that a lot of people live from the neck up. They get sucked into overthinking and processing too, and I'll stop people too. I'll be like do you notice that you keep telling the same story over and over? You know I do a lot of gentle confrontation too. Yeah, I think it's important it is. It is Because I think people they need that. Sometimes People appreciate that about me too, because they'll be like I appreciate that you say that because we get stuck. We all get stuck sometimes. Sometimes we need that little nudging to be like oh wait, you're right, I do keep saying that over and over. We get rumination. And how do we get over rumination? Research shows that we do have to get moving, to do some movement practices or we have to do meditation.

Aubrey: 11:36

Yeah, so either of those to kind of break that cycle? Yeah, they talk about that in the trainings for ADHD. Is that for ADHD you all you need for like an hour of concentration. I know this sounds like all you need, right, but like what you need, right, right, if you can do, if you can do 15 minutes of getting your heart rate up, then you will gain like an hour of concentration.

Chris: 12:04

That's what the research shows. I believe it for sure.

Aubrey: 12:08

You know so if you can incorporate that into your daily routine. Like you know, you have 15 minutes and then an hour of loaded time and then 15 minutes. You know it's like if you can incorporate that into your day-to-day. But even if you can't do it that rigidly right, even if you just put in like how much would you recommend on a day-to-day?

Chris: 12:31

for movement. Oh, that's part of what I was going to mention too is is that's what I'm? How I'm different from other therapists too, because I assign homework. So a lot of the clients that I see I do teach that they have to do these practices on a regular basis to get to that consistent daily practice of yoga or whatever movement they want to do. So if some people want to walk, great, do that right, at least 15 minutes a day. And, of course, if nobody's, if somebody's not been exercising at all, you know we got to start gradual. If somebody's got severe depression, we're not going to do it every day. Maybe we'll make it a goal, one to two times a week to start. So we do these slow progressions to move up to a daily practice and what that could look like.

Aubrey: 13:14

But even five minutes, let's start with that, yeah, and maybe one yoga pose, yeah and you're talking about people who've, you know, really struggled with this for a long time whereas, like, absolutely, if we're talking about more of just like where the ideal for any healthy human being would be like, where would you say that that ideal would shoot for?

Chris: 13:37

yeah, well, at least three times a week. Yeah, ideally, but but I do, I, I would. I do yoga every day. I promote it every day and my clients hear it every day. But not everybody's gonna do it every day and I get it, but even I. I say it even just for a few minutes.

Aubrey: 13:56

Right, and if you don't feel like it, just do one post well, when you think about hygiene, right, you think about, like, okay, well, I don't know about you, a lot of people shower every other day, but you know, I like to wash my body, things like that, that, right, so I shower every day. I brush my teeth twice a day, exactly, right, I go pee multiple times a day. You know, like there's things that you do on a regular basis to keep your body healthy, right, you eat multiple times a day. There's things that you do, so why would you not expel, right? It's like you're expelling all of the energy that kind of gets trapped into your body. For those of us who know, they know, like that, what that feels like is. It feels like anxiety, but it's just like this, like buzzing of energy that builds up, going to turn into remediating thoughts and overeating and using of drugs and alcohol, and like it's just going to like lead you to urges that are not in your best interest.

Chris: 15:09

Oh for sure I have found the most healing. The clients that do the best are those that do more movement practices on a regular basis period. There's no easy way around this. You must move your body more.

Aubrey: 15:17

Now I know how important movement is right, but recently I also joined the YMCA and for me it was like having the social aspects of movement was so important to me because I can't find the self-motivation in my own space. A lot of people can't. Yeah, yeah, I'm so curious for you, like what you see in your own practice around that.

Chris: 15:42

Yeah, and I think that's so key for a lot of people too and I do talk to clients. Now with the pandemic I know things have been better and people to get out too and try Can you go to a yoga studio or a gym or some other group practice to get around other people? Because neurobiologically we need to have community, we need to find that sense of community somewhere and when we practice with other people we have a greater sense of calmness in the body right. The mirror neurons in our bodies just connect with other people and that brings that parasympathetic response. It's phenomenal.

Aubrey: 16:19

Yeah, and you know the jargon is real, right, chris? So like that parasympathetic response. Right, that's like that Calm response in the body. Yeah, yeah, exactly the state of like calm, right, being able to connect with people, being able to make eye contact with people, like that happens when you feel safe in a connected space.

Chris: 16:41

Yes, and we all need more of that.

Aubrey: 16:43

Yeah, which you know. If you, it's hard because, like, you definitely need someone to help show you right. Like if you just walk into a gym and you're really struggling with some of these things, like it's going to be hard to do it on your own right.

Chris: 17:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So having the right right kind of teacher too, of course.

Aubrey: 17:06

Yeah, of course. So are there certain like, like things that you say to your clients that are really encouraging, either mantras or things that that they you know, it's just an important thing for them to hear from you.

Chris: 17:21

Yeah, well, I keep it trauma informed and unfortunately, some gyms and teachers are not trauma informed. So that's the difficult part is you know that they trauma. Informed language could be like go at your own pace, take your time, you can stop at any time, but we don't hear those messages from the normal public. Right, yeah, but there are some trauma-informed yoga studios, so, just keeping that in mind, that's something that people can look for if they want to have a more inviting atmosphere.

Aubrey: 18:00

And that's becoming more popular too is trauma-informed yoga. Yeah, and there's some smaller group-based classes where they'll actually do some hands-on work with people specifically around that right.

Chris: 18:07

Yes for sure, yeah, so just really being cautious with the kind of classes you go to too, because I know I have had some yoga classes I've gone to where I've been triggered and I haven't had a lot of trauma in my life but I was like, oh my God, I can't imagine someone that's had a lot of trauma going to some of these teachers who are yelling and just they're not very supportive and not trauma informed at all. So just being cautious where you go and really researching the teachers.

Aubrey: 18:36

Do you have some resources or anywhere to point people to when they're looking for resources around, like trauma, informed care or, specifically, the body based work that you do?

Chris: 18:50

Yeah, yeah, I can definitely share some of those with you after.

Aubrey: 18:53

Sure, yeah, so those, some of those with you after Sure, yeah, so those will be in the show notes. And, chris, if you want to go ahead and share with us the audience, like, where we can find more information about your practice, so my private practice website is path to hope counseling dot com and my podcast is holistic counseling podcast dotingpodcastcom.

Chris: 19:15

And those are the main places I'm at. I'm also on Instagram, holisticcounselingpodcast Awesome.

Aubrey: 19:22

Yeah, so this show has been going out on Instagram, facebook, linkedin and for anybody who's listening in I think a lot of people are listening in from my emails. So if people are listening in and they like this show or they want to say anything about Chris or myself or just share any kind of feedback, they're welcome to email me at kindred at arttherapynccom. They can also check us out on any of those platforms, as well as bizradious, which is the producers of this show. So I've been your host, aubrey Baptista, and thank you again for joining us, chris, thanks for having me.