Impostor Syndrome! Forget What Your Saboteurs Say--You Do Belong!

Do you ever feel like an impostor among your colleagues and peers? Do you wonder whether your degree, qualifications, and experience are just “not enough” to achieve the success you want? In Episode 17,  host Jami Carlacio and guest Siobhán (“Shivaun”) Murphy discuss the concept of imposter syndrome, that nagging feeling of being a fraud despite your accomplishments. We explore how this phenomenon disproportionately affects high-achieving women, leading to self-doubt, anxiety, and a reluctance to take on new challenges.

Imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern where individuals believe they are overhyped and their success is due to luck or external factors, not their own competence. This can manifest in various ways, from downplaying achievements to attributing positive feedback to mere politeness.

Emotional intelligence (EQ) is a powerful weapon against imposter syndrome.  Drawing on the power of your Inner Sage, you can challenge negative self-talk, build confidence in your abilities, and conquer this pesky problem. The long and short of it is, YOU BELONG! You come to embrace and believe in the value you bring to your peers, colleagues, and everyone else where you feel the need to perform at your best. EQ empowers you to silence the imposter voice within and embrace your rightful place as the awesome, amazing, talented, and accomplished person you are. Believe it.

The New Happy by Stephanie Harrison: https://thenewhappy.com

Guest: Siobhán (“Shivaun”) Murphy
https://thequestconnection.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the podcast emotional intelligence your greatest asset and key to success. I'm your host. Dr. Jami Carlacio coming to you from the greater New Haven Connecticut area as a positive intelligence or p q coach. I'm committed to helping people develop both emotional intelligence and mental Fitness. That is you'll come too. Regard problems as situations that help you learn and grow PQ is a way of being and doing in the world that enables you to develop and sustain a positive relationship with yourself and others at home at work and everywhere in between. Please subscribe to this podcast and tap the like button. So more people can enjoy the benefits of PQ and now here's the show Hello everybody. Thank you for joining us. I'm Jami Carlacio. Oh, and if you heard that intro you already know that and today we are going to talk about imposter syndrome and I am pleased that I have a wonderful guest here to help me discuss this her name is Siobhàn Murphy notice this pronunciation of her name. She has a lovely Irish name and let me just give you a few words about Siobhan she holds A Master Certified coach credential and she serves as an executive coach mental Fitness coach and a grief recovery specialist, which I believe is one of the most important things we have so many things that we are grieving not just loved ones but situations she answered the call of her own heart to bring a new form of relating to humanity playing a pivotal role in launching the early coaching industry. So she is a true veteran and Hired by a fellow manager at her first corporate job who prayed just a hideout under his desk until he could retire which sounds really sad Siobhan set out to create more ease and growth and Innovation and joy in the workplace and so for the past 28 years. She has been assisting Executives in leading from both their head and their heart and hello Siobhan. How are you today? Thank you for coming

Speaker 2: on. I'm delighted to be here Jami and I love talking about ways people can be empowered and I love that. We share the frame of the mental Fitness coaching. I think it'll be useful for this conversation

Speaker 1: Yes totally it will. So we're topic is imposter syndrome and I'm guessing that a lot of people who are listening or watching this know exactly what we are talking about, but I wanted to just say a few Words to start our conversation off. So one of the things is it's not a mental illness and but if you are prone to feeling depressed or anxious or you're suffering from low self-esteem feeling like an imposter may come as a natural result of that. So one of the things I wanted to quote Mark Waldman who is a positive psychology specialist and he talks about confidence and self-esteem and he says they're serrated by our imagination and the process of our default Network in our brain and he said self-esteem and I think we all know this is about how we feel about ourselves. You know, that confidence is anchored in our belief that we can accomplish our desired goals or if we're suffering from lack of self confidence or lack of self-esteem. Maybe the feeling that we can't accomplish them and he said our entire sense. Self is a creative construction, which is interesting. It's a creative construction that takes place in our parietal lobe and our medial frontal cortex where these are the where the imagination resides and so before I before we talk about a neuropsychological definition of self-esteem, he points out that self is that self-esteem does not help you achieve more or goals and that's kind of interesting. It's kind of maybe paradoxical it has more to do with our opinion of ourselves. And so it's self-referential and it is correlated with anxiety and depression but it turns out that poor self-esteem doesn't necessarily interfere with our success ratio, and I'm going to talk about why in a minute but what's going on is a lot of celebrities and performers and you know high-achieving people have high confidence in their skills, but they also feel like they're low self-confidence maybe prevents them from going even higher and the other thing is, you know, I was talking to a friend about Van Morrison and he is an amazing singer and performer and you know, he's done so well in the music industry, but he has terrible stage fright and so he stands at the  back of the stage and he's almost hidden from view. He stands right by the percussion and it's not that he feels like an imposter but it made me think about how he makes himself invisible and there are a lot of ways to improve your self-esteem and one of them is to write down your accomplishments every single day and one of them might be getting out of bed without hitting the snooze button or eating a healthy breakfast. Stepping outside for a short walk. It doesn't have to be that you just conquered the world and you achieved World Peace. It is something small and measurable. But one of the things I want to talk about in terms of applying it to positive intelligence is when we feel like impostors like we don't belong, like somebody's going to find out. and oh my gosh, I felt that way in graduate school. I thought any day someone was going to say Jami, we made a huge mistake. You don't belong here. You have to leave and it was it was really scary. It kind of interfered with my ability to really embrace my education but our judges active in our head saying well, you know, you're not good enough. You don't really fit in you need more education. You need another credential and what that means is we need some kind of external validation to to feel like we're a success and so you need the degree on the wall. There you need somebody to Pat you on the back or you need somebody to promote you versus having it within and that intrinsic feeling and the hyper achiever really thrives on this. So the hyperachiever says, oh no go get another degree. Oh, no do this do that and but at the same time the hyper achiever can help us because that hyper achiever does help us maybe go on and do something and maybe that thing. That you went on to achieve turned out to be a really important aspect of who you are and a contributor to all the gifts that you actually bring to the world. And so what I'm hoping we can also talk about Siobhàn is how we need to really reframe our thinking and consider that we're not imposters that somehow some way wherever we are we're supposed to be here and the important thing is that we do have something to offer other people. People and some of it is just right here inside. So that's a kickoff to the conversation and I'll let you take it from here.

Speaker 2: Okay? Well, thank you for that background. When I want to share about the actual term imposter syndrome is that it's been around since the nineteen late 1970s Two Women Pauline Rose clients and Suzanne Imes did a study of women and they called it the Imposter phenomenon and Basically, it was a belief that people were not really as intelligent as they thought they were and that they had somehow fooled people that they were confident and it's evolved over the years to add the name syndrome which kind of psychological eyes has it and it's not actually something in the DSM the diagnostic and statistical manual and it's a set of feelings of fraudulence and inadequacy. It can be a sense of anxiety or a no. Deserving this and I think it's really a sense of beliefs or a set of beliefs that I'm supposed to already know how to do something. I'm new at and it thrives with people in competitive and high-stakes environments. So in terms of the positive intelligence language the saboteurs the high Achievers and the sticklers a perfectionist High Achievers, right those accustomed to you know levels of personal success are the ones most susceptible to it and it's kind of interesting. My top saboteurs are a stickler which is the perfectionist pattern and high achiever. So, you know, I understand this but once we understand that it's a set of feelings and beliefs you use the word reframing we can totally reframe this and that's the part of the conversation. I'd like to encourage, you know, the stakes for people to reframe it are high because It increases Stress and Anxiety. It is clear now in more recent research that men and women suffer from it alike and there are some systemic reasons for it. So for example, more diverse, you know women and people of color may have less role models and examples so backing tribute to imposter syndrome, but on the other hand men are socialized not to admit these Kinds of feelings so they activate and not actually reporting my own experience as a coach listening to people's insides over the years. Is that men and women both have it and it's less about I guess part of the reframe is, you know, if you're new or doing anything risky and who's not doing something new in the 21st century post pandemic World. Everything's new right? We're going to have feelings of what I call clumsy awkward. Stupid as we learn and there's less certainty. We're in a VUCA environment. But what you've got vuca is a term to describe the current environment. It's volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. When we are in this kind of VUCA world. We there's not a Playbook right? We're making it up as we go along which is why people need coaching right connect to their inner wisdom and be able to navigate. Next steps so another word. I want to bring into this is the idea of Shame. Oh, yeah, most useful translation of that. I've heard is should have already mastered everything and I think a aligns very well with imposter syndrome because that is the belief. I should already know how so We in coaching and certainly mental Fitness coaches help people reframe things help people change the beliefs and feel the feelings and do it. Anyway, I would really like for the time that we're together to be able to zoom out to a much larger picture. Mhm because I think what's happened by naming this a syndrome? Yeah that we've made this something that is an individual's problem. Uh-huh. Yeah. Look at our navel and gaze at it and figure out why do we have these feelings? And how can I avoid these feelings? And I think we need to have a completely different conversation and some of that was informed by some work. I heard by a woman named Halla Tómasdóttirer. She's a woman from Iceland who was CEO of the B team which is a nonprofit organization designed to help businesses. Be used for good. Good. Hmm. He also was a presidential candidate in Iceland actually might be running again. But when I heard her talk about this particular idea of imposter syndrome, she kind of turned some things on the head for me. So one she said is imposter syndrome is an antidote to you Burris syndrome. Hmm and Yuba syndrome, she identified as the overconfidence, you know egotistical. Kind of attitude that was heavily rewarded in the last century. If we think of 20th century leadership style. It was more autocratic was very command-and-control. They were looking for uniformity was very hierarchical. The people at the top did have all the knowledge. All right, and so that kind of confident leader was required in that environment.

Speaker 1: Can I stop you for just moment just to ask a couple of questions so we can amplify that. The first thing is what I want to step back in a moment to positive intelligence, but I'm interested in and I do agree with about the men. I think there's so many gender constructions out there that teach women how to be a certain way and teach men how to be a certain way and because we are taught maybe to express more emotion or were allowed in men. Art, the fact that we express that makes us often look weaker or appear weaker in some people's eyes and that's been borne out by research. And unfortunately, I think it also makes it difficult for men to feel authentic and it actually is probably worse because they're stuffing it but and I think of when you talked about hubris, I was thinking often times we Have a large ego with an inferiority complex. So there's something about neat like a puffer fish. You need to puff yourself out because you feel so inadequate inside and then I was also wondering and maybe you're going to get to this. I'm surprised that you said it was more autocratic, you know this idea of the corporate structure or the Supreme Being at the head of the company and That maybe it's been flattening out because I still kind of see that happening. So maybe could say more about that.

Speaker 2: Sure. I don't think I said flattening out. But what I'll I was just now with ya 20th century leadership styles were very hierarchical very command and control oriented and the leaders whether it was in medicine education the family business or government were the ones who had the education who had the information. Nation and who had the power and so you could have a command-and-control kind of way of organizing people and students were taught. You know, we were taught in Rose to read write and to be able to follow directions so we could be good Factory workers and soldiers and employees, right? And that's a paradigm that's served us. Well at the time in terms of making more abundance available to more people and raise certain. It's a living, you know beyond what we had experienced say in the 19th century. However, now we're in a new time and when Halla talked about the answer to impostor Syndrome humility is now a leadership strengths, right? That's both the ability to admit that we don't know the that we make mistakes that we are ever learning is a quality of leadership. That's it. Appreciated now. We know now that Leaders with higher emotional intelligence. That's the differentiator if everybody has the same degrees the same experience the same letters after their name. What's the thing that makes the difference at the senior levels? It is the emotional intelligence. So now we require things like empathy Innovation inclusion humility empowerment. We need to enter into the unknown. Because in Avoca World volatile uncertain complex and ambiguous. We can't know everything and so we need to garner the wisdom of the hole right at leader. Now, we all everybody in this organization has a smartphone so they have access to data in ways that employees never had before and so so I guess when bringing it back to imposter syndrome instead of Saying how do I overcome my feelings of inadequacy and feeling like a fraud when I don't know I would like to suggest that people embrace the idea that not only don't you know, you can't know and to enter into the unknowing with empathy for yourself and others with humility to collaborate and create and innovate a way forward. So new questions that people could ask, you know. What would be what's at stake here? What can I as a unique individual with a unique set of strengths and experiences contribute here and it will take us off of what I'm going to kind of affectionately called the navel-gazing of I'm not good enough to a more Sage conversation. So if we're using positive intelligence language, we would say, how do we move out of The Saboteur mind into To the sage by asking new and better questions that will actually tap our wisdom and tap the wisdom of other people. So I'll pause there to see if you have any questions. Thank you that

Speaker 1: yeah. I was just going to talk about the way that we can move out of The Saboteur brain. First of all in this is about emotional intelligence as well is self-awareness and knowing what you don't know is a mark of intelligence. I believe I knew everything when I was eighteen, I know almost nothing at my age now, but I know how to learn and because I know that I don't know. I am more open to receiving information from lots of different people. In fact, I used to be a professor. So I approached my teaching in the 90s like oh my gosh. I have to know everything but in the 2000s wonderful Sage Professor mentor of mine said did Jami you don't have to know everything: elicit. And I thought oh my gosh, thank goodness. It took all the pressure off me and I started handing in I started handing the reins to my students to take charge of their learning and I was a guide in a coach but they got to present material. They had to do the research and share it and it just made a huge difference and then I Is open to learning from them and that's how I ended up, you know teaching for the last 18 or so years was to actually just enjoy how my students were growing and learning the thing is though. They all felt like imposters. I taught it to different IVs and especially at an ivy everyone feels like they have to work hard and try hard and be the smartest person and I used to teach writing and students aren't always great. Writing when they come to college, you know high school and college or completely different ballgames. Even if you went to the best prep school, you don't come to college equipped to write like a college student and I would say to my students if you already knew this I wouldn't have a job. So, of course, you don't know it yet right and tried to assure them that this was a process that was going to be ongoing and in fact at around 10 weeks if in a 15-week semester, Or I saw light bulbs go on and the whole room would just light up with a lot of new knowledge and ability but back to positive intelligence assessing the sage brain like is self empathy like oh, yeah, it's okay. You don't know that. It's okay that there's a ramp up period you may be the smartest person on the planet, but if you're going into a new job, there's still a ramp-up period.  And so just to add what you're saying it goes back to that shame analogy, right? I should have already mastered everything. I should already know how to write a college level when I'm a freshman. That doesn't make sense. Right? So giving our permission ourselves permission to not know, you know, I I say, I know that I don't know I say no. I have another handy saying around that. I can't know what I don't know yet. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't know what I don't know yet and Minister friend of mine Reverend Janine Burns taught me this little little ditty for when I make mistakes, which is really helped my stickler and simple it goes like this. Oops. I made a mistake and I'm beautiful as my interrupts the pattern of my stickler saboteur. If I'm going to learn and grow I must make mistakes and I love the analogy of when a little baby is learning to walk they fall more than they take steps, right and nobody says you stupid idiot. You didn't walk yet which ear when they've yeah, and we have the full belief that of course they're going to walk before they get to school. Right? We don't even question that that's a thing right and we are just they're encouraging them through the that mistake, prey making process and somehow when we get to be in bigger bodies. We stopped that and we think you know bad girl. You didn't do it, right, you know when you're trying something new and who's not trying something new in 2024, you know it there's something new every day. 

Speaker 1: Mmm-hmm. Yeah, the technology changes faster than we can blink. I want to go back to the baby thing right away. Yeah babies don't fall in then cry. They just get right back up and try again, but it doesn't even occur to a baby and maybe we all need to have that baby mindset -- fall down just get back up-- that's resilience and resilience is certainly part of emotional intelligence and positive intelligence and it deals with exploring and innovating. Oh, yeah. I did make a mistake. And yeah, it was a little expensive. It was a little costly but now I I have learned and I have that gift of learning this thing and I'm going to Pivot into a new direction that I wouldn't have really appreciated. Had. I not made this other mistake. Yes, and so I guess the invitation for people who consider themselves having imposter syndrome is to use self-command and say oh that thought is not useful to me right now. Let me switch to a different thought let me get in my body feel the feels if I have to peel them to release them. Right? We do two fingers together with such Exquisite attention that we can feel the Ridges of the fingertips and then shift to and different.

Speaker 2: What do I need to learn here? How can I make my best contribution? What's the new unique gift I have to offer that I could focus on right now right can help right? And so that's what I think holiday gave to me was. Oh, let's not spend our precious attention to much on impostor syndrome. Let's shift it into questions. You know, what's the benefit of imposter syndrome? Oh, I'll get to express my humility and connect with empathy to other people who are also trying to know and surf the waves of the VUCA world and innovate and create 

Speaker 1: mhm, you know, yeah that it reminds me of the yes and game that Shirzad Chamine taught us if everyone, you know, let's say there are five people in the team meeting and maybe you're the chairing the meeting or whatever and you need to come up with a solution. And everybody gets a chance to say something and nobody is shamed because it's a yes, and so you build on what somebody said there's at least ten percent of what they said that you can use and maybe more and then you add something and pretty soon. You've got five or six ideas that sound really good and then you can really work with them. But if everyone's like no that's a dumb idea or I'm not saying a word because I don't want to look dumb.

Speaker 2: Yes that yes-and game is a wonderful Sage power. The other one I suggest people do is to get a picture of them as either young child learn to walk or a five-year-old and have empathy for how would they be talking to their inner little self when they were trying to learn something new and I'm sure they would coup at the baby and they would be gentle and kind and warm to their five-year-old self and you know when you can start to Envision the other People on your team or in your family or in your environment that you're working with as five-year-olds and with the same care and gentleness that you would offer them if they were small children goes a long way to making connection with one another and then people feel belonging for sure and are much more able to step into that unknowing place and risk a new idea.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the willingness to take risks .I want to end on this note because we're out of time. But I was also reading some research and this one woman wrote a book called The New Happy and I'll put that in the show notes, but one of the things she says is we live in such an individualistic culture. But at the same time we all seek connection and that empathy and that willingness to take risks and their willingness to admit you don't No is a way of forging that connection because as soon as you think, you know more or you feel like you have to that's a separation thing and puts up a wall. And the idea is that like you said with the little child, you know, the younger version that is connection and that connects me to you as soon as you make a mistake. I know I have got permission to make one.

Speaker 2: Yes. And as soon as I admit, I don't know you have permission to say I don't know either. So who does know or how can we find out or what do we need to create? Right?

Speaker 1: Right. So thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. I'm going to conclude this podcast with a clip from a fun song that I found. So hold on while I present my screen and here it is.

Speaker 2: that's great. Thank you for that.

Speaker 1: I know hold on I gotta turn it off. Alright, so, thank you. So much Siobhan's information will be in the show notes as well as mine, and if you are thinking that you want to get more information on positive intelligence, and any kind of other coaching workplace coaching, you know where to find us and until then. We will see you next week at the PQ gym. Take Care.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Jami

Speaker 1: you bet, bye-bye.