E47 - Training through the Body in Zen Buddhism and Hawaiian Spirituality ft. Doshin Shim Roshi

In this episode, Alex sits down with Doshin Shim Roshi to explore the role of the body in Zen Buddhist practice, and its intersection with Hawaiian spirituality. 

Alex and Doshin Shim Roshi discuss their shared experiences training in the Chozen-ji style of Zen Buddhist meditation. They share stories of rigorous training, spiritual insights, and the integration of life lessons derived from both Zen and Hawaiian practices. The conversation reveals how these traditions emphasize the physical body's role in spiritual enlightenment and the subtle ways cultural legacies shape personal and spiritual identity.

Engage directly with the rich traditions of Zen and Hawaiian spirituality by listening to the full episode available here. Expand your spiritual horizons and embrace the lessons discussed by two profound practitioners of Zen.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background

02:23 Early Days and Introduction to Zen Training

03:18 First 21 Days of Live-in Training

06:03 Return to Training and Commitment

08:16 The Role of Live-in Training

10:09 The Importance of Kiai and Hara

11:59 Zen Ken Sho: Zen, Sword, and Brush

22:20 The Importance of Hara

25:31 The Connection Between Martial Arts, Fine Arts, and Sitting

29:47 The Healing Arts in Zen Training

38:37 Dub and Audrey's Influence in Healing Arts

41:48 Discovering True Self

43:28 The Unknown and Intuitive Perception

45:12 Breaking Free from Dualistic Thinking

46:40 The Importance of Hara and Intuition

50:40 Zen Integration Bodywork

53:09 Beyond Form in Martial Arts

55:04 The Mind of Intention Having no Dwelling Place

56:35 The Unknown and Intuitive Perception

58:23 Hawaiian Spirituality and Zen

01:05:28 Hawaiian Ancestry and Zen Lineage

01:08:43 Sailing and Teaching the Younger Generation

01:15:44 The Meaning of Nawelu Nakai

01:20:47 The Importance of Daily Meditation

Transcript

0:02

Alright, good morning everybody. Today I have the big pleasure and honor to be sitting down with Doshin Shim Roshi and it's definitely morning because here I'm in Boulder, Colorado. It's about 6 a.m. in Honolulu where Shim Roshi is joining us from and Shim Roshi and I have a connection through our Zen training lineage going back at least about 20 years or so. Both of us have trained in the Chozenji style of Zen Buddhist meditation or tradition. And back in my early days, when I was about 20, 21, 22, I was doing basically a thousand-day live-in training or residential training at the temple outside of Honolulu. And I had the good fortune of... connecting with Shim Roshi, who once a week would come pick me up from the temple in Kalihi and drive me out to his home near Makaha Beach in a different part of Oahu. And I got to do some Zen practice, but in combination with being out on the water with And so that was good fun. So that was sort of when I especially got to know Shim Roshi in those early days. But I invited him on the podcast today to talk about our Zen training lineage and how the body is talked about and thought about and used as a tool for Zen meditation in our particular style and lineage. And then also with Shim Roshi, a connection into his Hawaiian culture and lineage, which is a big part of his teaching and work in the world. And so I wanted to have a bit of a conversation about how the Hawaiian lineage and spirituality intersects with the Zen training as well. So Shim Roshi thank you so much for joining the show today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, wonderful. Well, what I always like to start with is just kind of going back in time a little bit, like how, you know, what are the influences and forces that led you kind of in the direction that you did? And I think of you as a little bit like me. I came to the Zen training through my father, Gordon Greene Roshi, you know, when I was in my 20s and not knowing exactly what I was. was doing and diving into the training in a way that really influenced me. And you earlier in time had live in training and a deep connection to the dojo and Tanouye Roshi as well as your father. So I wonder if you could just tell a little bit about kind of the early days for you and how you got connected in. I basically got introduced to it through my dad. He brought me up there to meet Roshi the first time. And yeah, I was just there sitting in the kitchen and having that conversation. I remember when you were a little kid and you were running around. So I don't know if you could have had the same because you were really, you were young. You were like five years old maybe, not even. Yeah, well, when so yeah, when I was like 567 and my sister was a little bit older, we would come up to the dojo, you know, dad would have some kind of work project or something like that. And we would mostly we'd stay in the office and Yokoyama Roshi would set us up with a video game. So, you know, so yeah, I remember we would go visit the dojo when we were young kids. Yeah. well, my introduction, I was much older when I met Tanouye Roshi through my dad. He'd be up there. And I remember sitting in the kitchen and he was having one of the other live-ins serving us some tea. And then he basically snapped at the guy living in, right? Because I guess the tea tasted bitter, right? And then... The kid said, or the live-in I forget his name, but he tried to talk back to Tanouye Roshi. And Tanouye Roshi just snapped back and just shut up. That's the problem with you kids now that you always got something to say back, right? And then he goes, I gotta fix this. And he goes, wouldn't you feel bitter if you just got thrown in a bunch of hot boiling water all at once? You know, and, you know, so that was my first introduction into Tanouye Roshi as far as, you know. What do you think? yeah, yeah. I think one of my first introductions too was seeing him snap at somebody in the way that he was well known for. Part of his skillful means was a bit uncomfortable to experience, but so yeah. So I know the feeling of seeing that in action. And then I remember him saying something like, telling my dad, this is the kind of guys we need over here. Right? Talking to, pointing to me. Yeah, right. I'm gonna really shave my head and come over here. No way. Then he said, I can always tell people who smoke weed. Cause they're sitting like this, leaning forward. And... And then right there I sat up straight. So he, I mean, the reason why you lean forward is because your body doesn't have, the weed makes your muscles lose its integrity. You don't have the integrity to hold your spine up. It gets too much oil in the muscle tissue. So that was, so that's where it all started. And then I eventually came back and asked him if I could stay in for 21 days. No, I asked him if I could stay for the weekend. He go, no, it better you come for 21 days. And then, so I came in for 21 days. I remember coming in at like five o'clock on Sunday afternoon. And I was, you know, did the whole thing 21 days. I think I built the steps during that time, those stone steps at the back of the wall. Yeah. the hill. When it came to five o'clock Sunday afternoon, three weeks later I was running out the door. I was out of there. I was escaping. My time was up, done that, gone. Then about three years later, I ended up seeing him again. I was kind of running wild in Oahu, doing all kinds of fun things, surfing. Hmm. working at night and partying. Then he said, okay, I'm making an offer for you. You can come stay with me again, but this time you can only leave when I think you're ready to leave. It might be three days, it might be three years, it might be a lifetime. You can only leave when I think you're ready to leave. And but then he tried to tone it down a little bit. But you can have three years. You know, it's relative. You can have three years in a few minutes, you know. He kind of conned me in more that way a little bit, right? He goes, that's my offer. Take it or leave it. Yeah. So, so I took his offer, you know, I might be there for the rest of my life. Right. So what? So when was that about? Was that in the 90s or when? 1988 around there. 88 or 89. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long did you end up staying? Yeah, yeah. came to the point where I wanted to stay, you know, I wanted to keep staying. They said, no, you gotta go. Yeah, so. Yeah, yeah, yes. Maybe on another time, I'll share my story, but I had my I not quite the same offer from Tanouye Roshi but something a little. I went up one day to see him near quite near the end of his life and was just basically paying my respects and having a bit of a final conversation. And somehow at the end of that conversation, I had agreed to. stop college and live in it and in a few months start my three year live in training. And I had going into that conversation, I had zero intention of that being my path, but my fate was sealed and the deal was done. So. There's a lot of stories. Yeah. What were you know, when you sort of encountered both in that first 21 days or then, you know, I guess for the, you know, when you, you know, did spend this three years or there. What was, you know, and you're saying, you know, you're kind of surfing and working and partying. What was your what was what kind of what was your impression of the dojo community? or just kind of even the teachings, what were some of, what kind of hooked you in, if you remember? Um, it was, it was more, it wasn't so much the environment, you know, um, the teachings, it was more him, you know, and, um, I, in fact, I remember when I first went to go visit him after my first introduction through my dad, I went to see him on my own. And then, um, I remember asking, I think I was having problems with the relationship at the time. And I asked him. You know, I asked him, do you ever have fights with your wife? You ever get into arguments with your wife? He goes, yeah, you know, he goes, um, you know, but, uh, but what did he say? He said, um, but you know, I couldn't have built this place without her. You know, you know, oh, this is what he said. He said, yeah. So does she ever get, I asked her, does she, wife ever get mad at you? Mm-hmm. Yeah, but that's her problem. That's not my problem, you know. But I wouldn't be able I wouldn't have been able to build this place without you. I guess I guess you got to just I guess you just got to appreciate it. And then he said, yeah. And I remember that. And then. Yeah, I mean, it's vague. There'll be things that will come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about kind of the role of live in training, because a lot of people, they get interested in meditation, great. They learn how to sit. They might start sitting regularly, joining a class. In our style of training, there's often like a martial art or a fine art or some kind of Zen activity in combination with their... meditation. And then some people, you know, if people get more serious, they may want to come for the sesshin which is like a seven-day intensive period. So, you know, that's kind of one, you know, many people, of course, are working. And so, their Zen training is their, you know, their daily practice, weekly practice, and they may do those intensive periods, but they don't have the freedom or flexibility to do sort of a full-time residential, live-in training. So let's just talk, since you and I both kind of went through that process, I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Like, what is it about live-in training that's a bit unique in terms of kind of how it functions? Yeah, unless you're living in 24-7, unless you, you won't know really what the experience is like, unless you're doing that. It's really difficult to get into that kind of deep spiritual training as a lay person. I mean, you can, but it's easier, just the environment and just the schedule and just the energy, right? You know, like what we learned, the most important thing at the dojo, which was Tanouye Roshi's, you know, that was his MO, it was kiai (energy) first, right? So everything is kiai first, you know. So before I went there, before I went there for my 21 days, I knew it was going to be tough. So I had to, I had learned how to meditate in a different Indian tradition from India, but not the same kind of meditation. So I knew I had to be able to. I didn't want to go in there and start, you know, not handle. So I prepared myself a little bit. So it's, you know, the meditation is the basis of all of the training, you know, and then you have to, it's not just meditation per se because there's so much meditation all over the place nowadays, right? You got mindfulness, meditation and whatnot. I don't even know all the different types. I know for us, it worked, you know, and basically it's Ki'ai first. and through the body, you know, how to generate, how to, you're sitting to build your kiai (vital energy). Yeah, so pause for just a second. So I agree, you know, the kiai first is the sort of the basic, the first and last rule, maybe, you know, kind of, as you say, the M.O. coming from Tanouye Roshi But just define that a little bit for somebody who's listening who has not familiar with the term kiai. Maybe could you just explain that a little bit? So kiai is energy, Hawaiians call it mana. In Indians we'll call it shakti. It's different names meaning the same thing. Sort of your, I wouldn't say spiritual energy, but it's a universal energy, right? That you can, that it's a physical energy. It's not an intellectual concept, right? So. And the way you do it through meditation is through your core or like three inches below your belly button, right? Your, they call that your hāra, and the Hawaiians call it nāho. And through that actual part of your body, through sitting and posture and breathing is where you build it up, right? And so what we learned and what we teach is that this energy is built up. And you can actually feel it when your posture is correct, your breathing is correct. Everything is what you're, you know, the technique of sitting is correct. Then you can actually feel this running through your bones. And it feels like warm. You can feel the heat of the energy running through your bones. And, you know, so when you're sitting correctly, your hands will get warm, you know. You know, that's the fundamental. prerequisite needed for all ways, whether it's martial arts, healing arts, you know, fine arts. So from a fine art perspective, okay, so let me let me step back. So just to give you a better analogy, it's like, you know, you have all the stuff that's in your head up here, right? And all this, all this, and that's the problems, right? All the delusions, all the thinking, all the angry or whatever, emotions, all up here. So you take that energy. all that, yep, yep. you put it down here below your belly button and your naau. It's kind of like getting fire and then there's a pot of water and you're heating up this pot of water in your naau and that creates steam and that steam is energy that goes out through the body. Well, now from a fine arts point of view, like when we do calligraphy, you know, or any. or yep yep. So the energy that you generate through your na'au comes out into your fingertips, goes into the brush, and that way, and then it goes into the ink, and it determines how the ink penetrates into the paper. So, you know, so if you see that in a piece of calligraphy like the one you have behind you, right, somebody that's really highly evolved, the way that if you look at the way that ink penetrates into the paper under a microscope, the lines are really clear. it's not fuzzy or is it it's a specific clarity to it from somebody highly resolved so that same energy that can go into fine art determines how you you're able to you know do bodywork right the bodywork is dependent upon that or whatever else you do you know and that energy it stays around you know it doesn't it doesn't die with the person Like I remember Tanouye Roshi gave me one of his bamboo shinai (sword) And bamboo sword from Kendo, yeah, yeah. bamboo sword that, you know, he was a, he was a kendo high ranking kendo master. He gave me one of it and his, it has his Ki'ai still in that sword. Carry it. You feel it. You carry another sword. It's still small and you know, and lifeless. You are his sword. It feels big. Right. I have one too and I agree. And I'll just sort of interject for a moment because to me, you're talking about, like you say, just the foundational piece of our lineage of Zen training, this kiai First. And I'm just gonna share for my own experience, I came into the training at 19, 20 years old, and I was coming from college. I was studying philosophy. All of me was here. And so Tanouye Roshi and some of the other teachers, they start talking to me about, oh, can you feel this? Can you feel that? And at first I couldn't. And I thought, this is total BS. But what was lucky for me, what I really think basically changed the course of my whole life. was spending enough time with Tanouye Roshi and other teachers, where if I could suspend that, you know, my initial, you know, it didn't match my worldview and I was, didn't match my experience. But if I could set that aside, I was able to experience very clearly, okay, wow, these people know what they're talking about and there's something here that I know nothing about. And so became sort of the, So for me, I had to really sort of set down that, in my case, that real intellectual pursuits. And so when I started my live in training, something I remember so clearly that I appreciate is Sean Tajima sensei. He already had a Hara belt. So you're talking about the what is it? Is it now or in Hoi? Yeah, so Hara is the Japanese word or Tanden. or dan tian would be the Chinese word for kind of that low energy center below the navel. And learning to breathe in that way is so critical. So we wear when you're a new student or even later on, you wear, there's a thing called a hara belt, and you wrap it around your, below your navel. And the reason for is it puts a little bit of pressure. So when you're breathing, you have something to kind of push against in the style of breathing that we practice, which is helping to develop. the Tanden and create the kiai that Shim Roshi is mentioning right now. In any case, so on my first day of my live-in training, Tajima Sensei handed me a fresh new Hara belt and he said, this is the closest thing that we have to a Bible in our tradition. Wear this every day. Wear it 24 hours a day. Only take it off when you... when every few months you throw it in the laundry. And that's, and other than that, that's basically all you need for these three years. Don't, otherwise just follow the daily schedule. And so for me, that was so important because just, you know, I didn't do any reading of the Buddhist philosophy, nothing like that. And so those three years, it was all about a physical practice, waking up early. doing the meditation, making breakfast, shifting into the workday. It's a lot of manual work and using the body from building and moving stones, as you said, but always keeping in mind, all right, what is, how is my, what's happening in my Hara? What's, can I stay centered or connected to this thing? And for me, the simplicity of just kind of moving through, just taking what comes at you, and the, but finding that's centering, physical centering with this hara belt was kind of like the antidote that I needed to kind of find out that there's a different way to engage with the world and the present moment, not interfering by this kind of thinking. So that's... That's kind of my own description of why that 24-7 kind of training was important for me. Yeah. yeah, I wasn't too much into the hara belt You were, you didn't use the hara belt? I wasn't into it. Yeah, honestly, yeah, hardly ever wore it. Pushing it at one point and I put it on but to me it was irritating. It was in the, you know, Yeah, yeah. For me, it became like a second, you know, I felt weird without it, you know. So, you know, I mean, you use that to facilitate that pressure below your navel, right, below your body. We call it piko below your piko. You use it to facilitate your pressure. But one other, I forgot to mention, you know, as far as, well, we didn't really go through the mechanics and we're not going to do that here, but besides taking that pressure from up here and putting it down there, the important thing to know is that your asshole, your anus got to be slightly closed. If you know, that's really, really important. So if your anus is slightly closed, that automatically kind of puts pressure below your navel. You know, so that was more of my hara belt was making sure my asshole was slightly closed. So, you know, so you, and the reason you do that also, the way Tanouye Roshi explained it is that when your anus is slightly closed, you can't think at the same time. You can't have things going on over here at the same time. So you have to say like this, so if you see somebody walking down their street with a frown in their head, you know their asshole is wide open. Mm. Yeah, yeah. So I totally agree. And the tension in the anal sphincter kind of relates to your, because I think a mistake in the beginning with Hara, developing that lower center, is thinking it's just the tanden but it's a whole, it's kind of how you organize tension. in your pelvic floor, in your whole hips and pelvis, how that tension creates centeredness or connects to the rest of your body all the way up to your face and down to your toes. And to me, part of the reason I think that the martial arts what is so strongly emphasized in that training was that in martial arts, and also of course in fine arts, but at a more refined level, the martial arts, you're kind of learning how to stay to keep that physical centeredness in relationship to the rest of the body in various sort of applications and things like that. Yeah. yeah, no, exactly. When you're centered down there, and then especially when you're sitting, then you can start to relax everywhere else, right? You just go through your whole body, just consciously letting things go, so you become completely relaxed. And then there's the intellectual mind part component that you use through zazen, the form of meditation that we do. to bring that intellectual stuff back into the body. You know, it's actually bringing it back to the body. And that's basically, you know, what we call shugyo, which is, you know, one definition of shugyo is like a steep spiritual forging, right? But I like the one that Yokoyama Roshi uses all the time. And that's his definition of shugyo. It's more like not to let the mind stop. So all of the problems that we have, whether it's physical or mental, kind of start from this mind that gets stopped. It's stopped and attached to this or that. From a martial arts point of view, if somebody is using their sword and my mind gets stuck on their sword, I'm dead. If my mind gets stuck on my sword, I'm dead. The training is about how to not let the mind stop. So for us, doing zazen, the mind, the thought comes in while you're sitting. What we do is we bring it in the, when you're first learning, we bring it down by counting your breaths. So one breath is one count. Start inhale and long exhale, right? We try to breathe, you know, like maybe one time in a minute would be ideal. Whereas most people breathe about 17 times a minute. Neurotic people breathe faster. So when we have a thought, we bring it back to the breathing. And slowly the thoughts start to disappear. Then you can get from there, you go deeper into your meditation. As through that practice, building up your Ki'ai, and making it stronger and stronger. which affects your ability to do bodywork. Right, right, right. Well, so let's talk for a minute about, you know, the kind of the curriculum that Tanouye Roshi and his teacher Omori Sogen Roshi kind of developed. Well, because Omori Sogen, Japanese Zen master from Japan, had trained in Zen, but also extensively in Kendo or sword arts. and then also extensively in calligraphy, a traditional Japanese calligraphy. And so the phrase that got kind of brought down into our style of training is this phrase of Zen Ken Sho. So Zen as in Zen meditation, Ken sword and Sho brush, referring to this idea that the development process, as you said earlier, to evolve oneself using Shugyo or that sort of deep forging or kind of training at that deep level can be done through different angles, meditation, martial arts, fine arts, and that there's a reason why there's a benefit to exploring from a few different points of view. Can you just explain a little bit, either for you personally or even just in general, why is it important to kind of look at things through those few different angles like? Kensho is, you know, what that describes is, well, the training is basically how to not let the mind stop and so that you can see your true self nature, right? So I think that I'm not really good with all the Japanese terms. You know, honestly, I don't really remember what they. attached. You're not attached. I like it. Okay, good. You know, a lot of, I know, ki kan myo right? You know, I kind of know what that means, but kensho, kensho is basically enlightenment. It's an enlightenment experience. So, kensho is when you see your true self nature, that's when you become enlightened, you know? And what is that? You know, what does that mean? Right. But I guess what I'm talking about is like the Zen and then like the martial arts, fine arts and sitting. And so because the way that I always how I've thought about it is, you know, sitting is in some ways the easiest circumstances to basically to practice, to refine your breathing, learn to slow it. It's kind of in a way, artificial environment. because there's not much coming at you other than what's coming up from inside, your pain or your own thoughts or things like that. But then in the martial arts, it's very physical. And in the fine arts, there's more sort of a refinement. And like I know for you, a lot of martial arts, and then you're very artistic with your painting. And so I know you've kind of studied through those three ways. sitting meditation, martial arts meditation, if we want to call it, and fine arts meditation. To you, do you think it's important to kind of, for you, that you worked through those different ways to kind of integrate them? Yeah, I mean, definitely. You train in one art. So say you might have karate and you might have music, right? So you train in one art and you come and print the principles of each of martial arts and fine arts, the same principles, right? They're cooking, the same principles of cooking are the same principles of judo. principles of time and space and energy, right? You know, when you're cooking something, the food has to be clear. You know, it has to, you know, same with when you're, when you're throwing a punch or, or you're, you know, you're drawing a line. So when you, when you, so you train in one art and you come to a block in that one art, you're going to find the break, the same, the breakthrough for that same block in another art. You know, so that's, that's the importance of having. all those different things. That's why the dojo is basically training in fine arts, martial arts, and liberal arts. Mm-hmm. So you do need to, you know, I mean, that's what you train in one to find the breakthrough in the other. Yeah, yeah. And to be, you know, also to be a kind of, you don't want to be, I guess it's sort of like, you know, sometimes it would make the comment like, all right, well, somebody like, you know, Michael Jordan or LeBron James, surely they're in a high level of functioning when they're in the zone playing basketball. Or we talk, you know, even in, even in non-Zen Western culture, we talk about being a flow state or being in the zone. And people can develop that. where in their area of expertise, where they're operating at a very high level, you know, a non-stopping mind and all that kind of thing. But in Buddhism and in Zen training, the question is, okay, that's great. It's useful to develop it in a specific context, but in a way that's also, but all right, how is that showing up in other aspects of your life when you wake up in the morning? when you're having an argument with your wife, all these sort of more mundane circumstances rather than being on the basketball court or in a sword match or something like that. To me, I've always looked at the martial arts, fine arts, sitting, it's in a way, or the liberal arts, how do we become well-rounded where the principles of Zen can show up more or less in any circumstance. Yeah, what do you think? So, you know, when you talk about being in the zone, the guy who was in the zone was Tanouye Roshi I mean, he was basically, you know, I think he defines what it means to be in the zone, okay? As you train yourself to not let your mind stop, you know, not let your mind get taken up by the delusion, because once the mind attaches to a thought, then your mind stops at that point and then you can't move, you know, that's why the samurai trained You know so that they wouldn't get their minds or they'd be very vulnerable if their minds got stuck on any one thing So for Tanouye Roshi You know, that's what he taught us. He's not how to let the mind stop and it comes to the point where as a He would always say this he would say One man training himself is better than 10,000 people doing social work. Right. And what that means is that, you know, by him training himself, he would be his Hara or his, his Ki'ai would be so strong that anybody that would come in his presence would forget about their problems, would forget about their fears. And their minds would become calm. You know? from a healing perspective, somebody sick and comes around him, it has a huge effect on that. So that's the importance of him training himself rather than somebody telling you, oh, you gotta do this, this and this. It's just his presence. It was so strong that it had that effect on people. It was said that his Ki'ai was so strong that he could put... Everybody within a two mile radius into Samadhi, you know, and have no mind, I mean, have a calm mind about their problems. That's how strong his Ki'ai was. You know, it's a zone. Well, and it connects to, you know, he would frequently say this is the one that one of the first things he told me was, you know, it's this is about who you are, not what you do. So it's about being rather than doing and certainly not about thinking. So so what you're pointing to is, you know, that. super high level of development of kia to the point where he has that sort of presence and influence at that scale and magnitude, it's about somebody who just took the pursuit of being, basically to a level that, yeah, not too many people get to. Yeah, you mentioned him, you know, you mentioned Omori Sogen. You know, I remember once asking Tanouye Roshi what was it about Omori Sogen that made you want to train with him? Cause Omori Sogen, he's like a little guy. He's like five feet tall. It barely, if not even that, but maybe a little more. Um, and what, so I asked him, what was it about Tanouye Roshi, about Omori Sogen that made you want to train with him? He was, he wasn't afraid to die. You know, I could just kill him. but he wasn't afraid to die. That's why he decided to train with him. Because he was looking for somebody and he couldn't find anybody like that. He was looking for years. And finally found Omori Sogen So, yeah. Well, could we talk a little bit about the connection? So the healing arts aren't sort of like, it's not like a core focus. It's not like everybody who does Zen training, it's not that healing arts is always going to be a part of that. But there was some of that around through Dub and Audrey and probably others, Tanouye Roshi himself. sort of innately, but also through his high level of development through martial arts and other things, you know, basically just incredibly gifted as a healer in various ways. And of course, that's what I ended up becoming interested in. In a way, I thought of it as my fine art after a number of years of martial arts. I wanted to take those practices into bodywork, which has been kind of the direction that I ended up going. But could you talk a little bit about, you know, Dub and Audrey and how sort of the healing arts have been, were your own background in that period of time? Yeah, I mean, I was lucky because I got to formally train with Dub. Um, you know, and Audrey was always there. And, but I also got to learn from, from Tanouye Roshi, you know? So, um, you know, Dub had trained with Ida Ralph, as we all know, you know, and Moshe Feldenkrais and, um, and Barry, Ron Barry, you know, so, you know, so he, you know, so what I, and when I lived in was when Dub was living in, Dub was a, was a lay person, right? He didn't live in there full time like how we did round the clock, but he had a special agreement with Tanouye Roshi where he would sleep over at night, meditate in the morning and meditate every morning, but he would go off and do his work outside, which was body work all over the world. But Dub's work was more like to, you know, it was through like Rolfing we developed Zen Therapy was the structural integration from what I understand. Tanouye Roshi's method was a little bit different. You know, his method was evolved out of being able to fix injuries from martial arts. So that's how, for him, that's how... the bodywork evolved from his training out of martial arts. So his stuff was more designed like if you come to him like you got totally wrecked in a car accident, that kind of trauma. He was good at fixing that. What I learned from Tanouye Roshi a lot, I mean, that was really useful that when it comes to like the nervous system, not so much... I don't know that much about the nervous system but what he did show me is how to put nerves back into their grooves, and how to physically look for them, how they lined up in the body, and develop the touch in order to feel where it is or where it's supposed to be at, and it's not, and how to decide about it. It doesn't take a lot of, it takes really fine work, it's not a lot of muscle that you have to do. yeah. And that was an important decision, which was different from dub. Dub then was just go in there and just, you know, just go in there and, um, you know, just, just no mercy. a little bit more brute force in some ways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. it correctly. I mean, it can not work if it's not, again, it depends on the person, right? How can you do it, right? At their intuitive perception. you know, how much to give, right? How much to give. Um, you were, while we were talking, before you started to talk on this, I was gonna, oh, I was gonna, I'll bring this up, and maybe you can edit it into it somehow, but I didn't wanna, this is, is that along the sides of, you know, coming to training, right, is the question of, you know, when you talked about Kensho and all of that stuff. The question is like, who am I, right? You wanna find out your true self. Who is your true self? So you're asking, the training is about finding out who you are. What is my true self? So all questions come down to that question. Who am I? And from a bodywork perspective or just a general. not even bodywork, but from the other, the same question is, why am I suffering? Right? You have whatever it is, you know, in your life is why am I suffering? It's the same question as who am I? So this is the, this is why we train, why we come here, because we want to discover who our true self nature is. So what is that? Right. And it's not something intellectual. Maybe I'm gonna get ahead of myself, but it's something that can't be known through just general knowledge. It's unknown. We'll talk about that later. Yeah, I mean, I think that's an important thing to say. And I think what's so strong in Zen, but also just Shugyo or that deep spiritual forging or whatnot that you referred to, is this idea that this is not a pursuit. We're not looking for a simple answer or a superficial answer to a question that everything, as you say, in a way in Zen we're looking at, root of experience or what is the very root or foundation of one's being. And that is not something, that's something that can only be arrived at through a consistent, you got to keep looking past the superficial answers to those questions, you know, that question, who am I? We're looking for getting to that at a very deep level. And But by being able to connect to that very deep level, then in a way it's a way of getting to the root of many problems, whether that's our psychological barriers or problems or from a healing perspective. So Zen is a path that's essentially trying to get to that very foundation of who am I. Right, you know, and let me see how to put this up from a practical sense, right? When you think about the things that cause the suffering, right? It's, and where the mind gets stopped and where the mind becomes deluded is when it becomes dualistic, right? You know, you get stuck. stuck in good, you know, and bad, and you know, right and wrong, rich and poor, ugly and beautiful, right, back and forth. It never ends, you know. That's the suffering is going back and forth between the two, the mind getting stuck on one or the other. So as you start to find out who or try to search for who you are, you know, and then you go, well. Who am I? Am I this person in this body? And it goes, is that me? No, is that me with this title? No, that's not me. And then you find out who you are doesn't exist actually. And at that point, then you really can find out who you truly are. But it's not something that you, you not existing is something that intellectual concept, that you just believe, you know, till you come to the physical experience. So what is that? Hmm. Yeah, well said. Yeah. for, you know, for, okay, let me step back. For Hawaiians, this is the way Tanouye Roshi explained it to me. How did the first Hawaiians go to some place they'd never been before, right? It was unknown. If they knew about it before, it wouldn't have been unknown, right? It would have been known, but it was unknown. Intuitive perception was off by just one degree. We wouldn't exist as a culture today. So... We would have bypassed and we would all be dead. So the essence of the culture is the ability to know this unknown. So how can you know about something that's unknown, right? And this is what the Zen training does. Develop a way to know the unknown so that your intuitive perception is correct. So how do we do that? It's not just an intellectual thing to do it. Again, it has to come back to the body. So to intuitively know what cannot be known, it goes back to your hara, where we sit. When your hara is set correctly, your sphincter muscles slightly close, 180 degrees with your vision, long exhale. Everything else is relaxed. If everything is pressured down there, whatever decision you make is intuitively gonna be the right decision. So you know, we've done all kinds of exercise that. that help you practice and facilitate that. That's where the intuitive perception becomes. So even when you're doing body work, your intuitive perception is developed and is enhanced and is facilitated by your ability to have your hara set correctly. Then you're going to go, okay, there's something wrong here in the body or not, where to go. So that's an important thing to remember. I think that's really important because, and as I'm now teaching bodywork, and Zen Integration Bodywork is kind of what I'm calling the integration of study that I've done, that's exactly the distinction that I'm making is, you know, when you're, one way to learn bodywork or many different things is you learn various techniques or what might be called a clinical reasoning. It's sort of like, an analytical process to understand, oh, well, if this muscle is like this, then this must be like this, and the first I need to do this, and this is, so that level of reasoning would be an intellectual or an analytical reasoning. Now there's some value in that. It's not that there's no, it's not that that's incorrect, but what I'm much more interested in when I'm teaching bodywork, and certainly when I'm practicing bodywork, is how to, Okay, sure, I learned all of those things, but a much more effective way for me to be as a body worker is when I can be in that centered state, just as you describe it, collected in the Hara, 180 degree vision, relaxation, other than the sort of connection into the ground. Now from that place and engaging through touch or even not through touch with a person, it's... in Zen we call it kan or intuitive perception as you say, that can start to guide the way. That's a much more, that's a much deeper way of, a much more accurate way of working with somebody than relying upon this sort of so-called clinical reasoning, which again has its place, I'm not trying to discredit that. But when we look at a Zen art or a Zen body work, That's something that I'm really emphasizing as well, exactly as you described it. Yeah, um, Tanouye Roshi would, you know, and they both would, you know, through their work, you know, I was able to, I was lucky, I was able to be around their work. They were, they would teach me certain things by being around them. And they, you know, it came through working on different clients, you know, whoever came in that needed work. I remember there's one guy, he was, he had cancer, he's terminally ill. He was in so much pain that he would have to go and get on his motorcycle and just go a hundred miles an hour at night, you know, thinking that he might kill himself. You know, but we worked on him, you know. So it was just a matter of going in. And for cancer, right, the way Tanouye Roshi taught me is that you want to make the rest of the body good. Everything around the cancer, you try and make it as good so that the cancer can... it will overpower and the cancer will diminish. You know, that was his approach, make the rest of the body really all clean and then you diminish that. So that's how I would approach people that have, you know, something wrong with them. And sometimes it worked, you know, it was, sometimes it works and sometimes it's just, you know, the causes and conditions in your life, meaning the cause and conditions of this other person's life and whatever they are. you know, it's for some reason, it's their time to be healed or not. You know, being with some people, it wasn't there. No matter what you did, there's nothing that you can do. It was their time to go. There was that. So, you know, to be able to see it clearly, right? Like we say, kan to see what it is clearly. Again, you have to be set down here to know, you know. intuitively whether or not you're doing the right thing or doing you know what's needed. But it really comes down to that you know so even for Tanouye Roshi and his martial arts for example you know it came to the point where his martial arts was beyond form already you know. I remember he described it as a story the level of the martial arts that he was at would be like you know he could be He would show us he would have his shinai and he'd be resting on it like this, right? And then he'd get up to stretch and he'd stretch it, boom. Right when somebody is attacking him, as he's stretching, he's hitting the guy in the head, right? And that's really phenomenal. I mean, that's really something. I mean, another story he had was, there was this one monk, you know, And the teacher would always, he's the monk's, the master of this monk, would always crack him on the back of the head, right? Wherever he was, right? And then he kept getting nailed all the time. And then he started, thought that he was training out, he was gonna get good at it. So he was gonna go attack the teacher back, crack the teacher and get him back at him. He was trying, right when he tried to... to hit the teacher, the teacher had just finished wiping a pot, I was going to put it on the shelf and hit the kid in the head. You know, I mean, and so that's how it is, right? yeah. Well, so that story, you know, that's coming from the chapter on swordsmanship in DT Suzuki's Zen and Japanese Culture. And it's such a good example. I mean, in your example of Tanouye Roshi existing within that level, that particular teacher existing that again, to me, that really exemplifies it's about being it's just your it's totally relying upon purely 100% on intuition, no conscious action whatsoever, yet somehow you are in flow with, I guess what we would call the Tao, in Taoism or basically in alignment with the universe. It's basically like the mind of intention has no dwelling place. The mind of intention has no dwelling place. So you know, you're not, there's kind of like a fine line in this work where, you know, like again, you have these causes and conditions of this person's life, whatever his karmic condition or whatever, and his physical conditions. just happens to come into your space, you are, where that maybe from what your causes and conditions can affect that person in that moment of now at the time. And that's all there is, you know? So it's not like... It's like getting into a fight, right? Like nowadays you got guys, they're training and they're training for martial arts for, you know, to fight in MMA or whatever, you know, to be the, to win the tournament. Whereas Tanouye Roshi's martial arts might be where you don't even train for all of that. And he might not ever have a fight, you know, maybe just that one fight, which would result in not all of the training that he had. Training gives him the ability, but the actual fight would just be, you know, going to lift, you know, stretch out and take care of what or if somebody's attacking him and he just, you know, had his keys or something and flew it into the guy's eye, you know, so that's the same with the with the with the bodywork. Same kind of connections. For me, I used to do it as a business, but I don't do it anymore as a business. And I'll do it only. when I meet somebody that needs my help, whether it's a friend or somebody that's, you know, and then either it helps or it doesn't. Yeah, no, but what you're saying is that your best work is when you have no plan. Yeah, you're encountering the person and whatever is going to emerge from that will. Yeah. Yeah, whatever it is that you've had, you know, that you've learned from all the different things that you've learned, you know, and I, you know, I haven't learned that much, but it might just, it might not, you might not need to have all that much. It's just one little thing, you know, that can help. yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, could you talk a little bit about, you have a Hawaiian ancestry, not only genealogically, but an important part of your work in the world all along and now is through your Hawaiian heritage and spirituality. And I know for you, you know, the- you know, Zen is just one culture, Hawaii is just one culture, there's something connecting, you know, at a more basic level than the words and the culture. Could you talk a little bit about how your Hawaiian spirituality and Zen connect? Basically, you know, Zen and Hawaiian culture basically have the same essence, you know. You can call it poke, which is raw fish, you know, or you can call it maguro in Japanese. It's the same thing. So the essence of both are the same. In the Hawaiian, you know, Tanouye Roshi isn't Hawaiian by blood. Mm-hmm. He's like third generation Japanese that grew up in Hawaii. He's a local boy. And he was, he intersected with an ancient tradition of Hawaiian culture, you know, through my auntie, Pilahi Paki That was my great grandmother's niece. My great grandmother had two sisters and they married two Paki brothers and Pilahi Paki was one of them. So the story of Pilahi Paki is that she was a telephone operator with Hawaiian Tel and she kept hearing these voices through her headset, old telephone before cell phones and the voice kept telling her to come to Kona in the big island. So she kept telling her that. So she eventually flew to Kona and she meets this guy's name is Naluihine Kaupua. and he's 105 years old. He's on his deathbed. And this guy was a champion rodeo cowboy. He was a lua master, which is the Hawaiian martial arts, bone breaking martial arts. He was a master of that. He knew where all the Springs in Hawaii were. He knew the land, he knew the stories. He had full knowledge. He's 105 years old, he's on his deathbed lying down. When she reaches him, He levitates straight up, this is the story. And then he basically passes everything to her. And from that point on, she could speak Hawaiian fluently where she couldn't before, okay? So she was a famous kahuna or spiritual teacher that a lot of things in Hawaii evolved. And she talked about Aloha spirit, right? And the different. different meanings of Aloha spirit. She would teach every people about that. Actually, before she passed away, she was kind of sick and Dub and Audrey and my dad took her to meet Tanouye Roshi And then when she could barely walk, they had to kind of carry her in. And then Tanouye Roshi came down with his, you know, with his full ceremonial robes and he started to work on her, fed some kiai through her feet. You know, which incidentally is one of, you know, since I mentioned that is a really powerful way of helping people, especially when they're dying or. feeding ki or chi through the feed. Yep. facilitating. And that's part of the process of clearing up the body so you can, you know, getting rid of the blockages so that the ki can be fed. But it's his ki. You know, that's body work and it's, you know, it's ultimate form to me. So he fed ki into her so she could live another 30 days. And then she got up, you know, she kind of pretty much just got up where she could barely stand. And then a voice kept came out of her and said that, and there were witnesses, and this is documented in Dub's book, where she basically passed everything to Tanouye Roshi. From that day on, he would speak Hawaiian, right? So he would talk to me in Hawaiian, and he would only say things when it was important. He would say words in Hawaiian, and he doesn't know what I'm saying. I mean, what he's saying, I don't know what he's saying. I would have someone else interpret it, but it was always important things. So before he passed away, you know, I asked him, I said, you know, you have the lineage that you've inherited coming down from Shakyamuni Buddha, because Tanouye Roshi carries the lineage, the direct Dharma lineage as it came from Shakyamuni Buddha to his student and from that student to the next student, you know, maybe the... Maybe Shakyamuni Buddha had a number of students, but there's only one that carries that pure teaching. Well, that tradition passed down from India for 27 teachers to the disciples, and then into China, 27, the 28th one went to Japan. First one in China being Bodhidharma, and then 28th went to Japan, and then in Japan there were 27, and the 28th one was either Tanouye Roshi or Omori Sogen, but they were the ones to bring it here to the west. Mm-hmm. So you have that lineage, Tanouye Roshi, you have all your Zen masters under you. What about Auntie Pilahi? Who are you gonna pass that to? And he said, you know, for me, it was a really great privilege that they showed me all of that stuff, but it's not up to me, it's up to them. It might be you, it might be somebody else, you know. That's how it is in the Hawaiian tradition. So that was, you know, that's basically what happened. So that tradition goes on here, you know, and that's a way of for our ancient Hawaiians to talk or to teach or to be with or to help you know in this time because on that level for Tanouye Roshi I mean he would tell me stories you know talk about times when he would you know he would describe you know these big beings coming down for the universe like huge big beings or he would describe things they are really out of this world kind of stuff or he would describe talking to somebody that had died a hundred years ago. high priest, Kahuna, that he had talked to, that he had met. So on that level, it's all beyond time and space, right? There's the past and the future. It's beyond past and future. It exists in the now. Real difficult to explain that, but that's kind of what, so there is that exists out there. You have where Hawaiians come down and they, that lineage. going back who knows where, you know, it exists. What do you see? And so, you know, you wrote the, you captured a lot of what you've just shared in a really beautiful text, that Kekua's Daughter, my dad had a role helping to edit that and whatnot. What do you consider your work, your work with this at this stage of your life? Um, well, Kekua's Daughter you know, it was a book written by a student of Pilahi Paki And that book had really, you know, it had, your dad called me one day, right? And he's like, you know, I hadn't heard from him in years. And he called me and he said that he was telling me about this book, that it was a little pamphlet, every time he'd go into the library in the dojo. he'd see this book and it moved him, you know, and he wanted to republish it, right? Because it was out of print. And so he called my dad one day and he said, he said, you know, my dad goes, oh, who's this? You know, he goes, it's Gordon He goes, oh, how's it Gordon? He goes, yeah, he wanted to ask my dad if he could republish the book. So he talks to my dad, goes, how's your family? You know, how's this? You know. He does everything to evade answering the question. And Gordon, he goes, Gordon had to just cut him short. He goes, Alvin, can I or can't I? And then my dad goes, well, you know, Gordon, you'll know when it's the right time for you to do it, right? You'll know when it's the right time. It's up to you. Gordon felt that it was the time. to do it. So that's why he's calling me because he heard that somehow I knew Auntie Pilahi and all this. I had some background about it. I told her, yeah, we related to her. I never actually met her, but my brother had done a lot of work with her. Some of my cousins had met her, but I never actually met her. Only of her I knew through Tanouye Roshi. And sometimes she would be talking to him after she passed. And Tanouye Roshi, Auntie Pilahi said this, and this. You got to do this, and this. So I would always listen. So, you know, Auntie Pilahi Gordon wanted to write this book. And so he's telling me about this. So I explained all of this. So he's kind of blown away that there was that much of a connection. And he goes, well, you know, if they ever, you know, I explained them the tradition and he goes, well, if they ever, if you ever get any insight from them, you know, let me know what it is. So I go, well. At the start of this conversation, this is what they said. Right? And then I forget what it was. I record everything, right? Let me see. Yeah, I wrote it down and it's in the book, but it's basically it was... recording green. Okay. Wait, hold on. 22823, OK. Sorry. I'll leave. Yeah, no worries. This is important, that's why. Yeah. I can't find it. Um, I don't know why it's not... I don't have the book with me right here either. But there were these words that came, I don't have the words right here because I don't remember what it was, but it was at that time, so I wrote it down at the beginning of the phone call. Those words came to me right when I was talking to Gordon. I told him, well, this is what they said. I don't know what it means, but... I think it was something like, Kahai'ili'a'ava'a or something like that. Kahai'ili'a'ava'a, something like that. And I don't know what it means, but I'll get back to you, Gordon. So I looked at, you know, I have to literally, I have to translate literally what it means, get the definitions. But basically what it meant was that this book was a vessel to declare, like, extreme or profound. what he called, profound concepts, you know, to declare profound concepts or to teach, you know, really deep, what actually, what the meaning, but something like that. That's what this book was supposed to be. And I emailed that to him, you know, after I translated it, I would just write what the book is. So, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So it comes, those things happen. Our ancestors, what I've learned from this stuff is that, and what the book talks about, how the sounds of the language, like the I-A-E-O-U, contain certain elements of creation or whatever. And when you say those sounds, those sounds, whether it's the name of a person, bring that whole being into... the moment right then and there, and it exists. So if I say the word Pele, which is the goddess of fire from the volcano, if I say Pele, Pele exists right in this moment as me, as you, as everyone in that same moment. And through this tradition, Hawaiians will show you this, they'll show me this, where they will show certain things. And what I've learned is that So your ancestors, as soon as you say their name, they're there with you. you know, whether you believe it or not, whether you see it or not, because it exists in something that's unknowable. It's the unknown. Which also, you know, since I'm talking about that, when you ask yourself, who am I, and you find out that you don't exist, it's unknown, right? So that moment where you understand your true self nature is when you realize the unknown. and that there's no separation between knowing and not knowing, between knowing and the unknown. It's not something that is an abrupt awakening, it happens like in a moment, like in an instant, it's an abrupt. And it's not dependent upon any training that you've had, anything, there's nothing that is needed to have that experience. It can happen, you know, it just have to get, everything needs to get out of the way, right? So the higher level of the Zazen is getting into the, you become to the point where you're almost unconscious. As you go so deeply into your Zazen, into your breath, that you don't even know that you exist, that you're not there, right? So that moment, that abrupt awakening, is when that moment where you're so deep, that unconsciousness becomes conscious of itself. And then at that point, you break through all duality. There's no difference between life and death. There's no difference between you and the universe. So when the Buddha seen the morning star, he understood, I am, you know, he understood the truth at that moment. And for people, it was different things. So that's the whole, all of this is to get to that one point and beyond that, you know. Just knowing that is not enough. That experience is what you do with it. Getting back to with the Hawaiian stuff, yeah. In the book, it talks about the letters and the sounds. Like A is the elemental fire, the creative elements. So those sounds are, and that vowel, and when you attach it to a consonant, it determines. So you attach it to the... constant K so you have ka. K is a more masculine. energetic, outgoing things. So ka is like to go out creatively, you know. So those are some of the things with the language. So the sounds that come through, through the Hawaiian language, which I don't speak, but when they come, they tell you certain things, and it's either gonna be delusional or it's gonna be clear, you know. And that's a way that I've learned, that I've found that ancient Hawaiian culture can actually is right here with us today. can, is still being, is still being transmitted in the present moment. Yeah. Speaking of kind of words and sounds, can, you know, I introduced you as Doshin Shim Roshi, which is, you know, your Zen, your priest name and Zen and title, and your Hawaiian name, Nawelu Nakai. Can you talk a little bit about the meaning of that, Nawelu Nakai? So Nawelu Nakai that's the name that Auntie Pilahi said that our family is supposed to carry. So it was carried by the oldest boy. And if there wasn't the oldest male, then the oldest female would take that name. So I'm Nawelu Nakai Ehiku, which is number seven. My dad was number six. His father was number five. his mother, my great-grandfather, my great-grandmother was number four, you know, and then it goes back to number one, Nawelu Naka'i. And Nawelu means, Nawelu Naka'i, Naka'i is like the sea, and Nawelu means like the feathering, you know, like feathering, so it's the feathering sea. And I'm, you know, literally, Nawelu, the feathering sea, I figured that name maybe came down from as navigators that they were, the first Hawaiian to come. or it came back from that way back tradition because the feathering sea is kind of like the really perfect seas for going long distance, not too rough, not too weak, but just smooth feathering seas that take you where you need to go for those first Hawaiian that been somewhere they never knew before. We came to somewhere they never knew before, right? So that's what, okay, but for me, that's just on my dad's side. that tradition goes back to genealogy to them. Then on my mom's side, my genealogy goes back to both my mom's mother and her father goes back to some of the royal families over here. But the one thing that's interesting is that the two sides that come down are our enemies at a certain point. So it's from opposite sides of the royal families. Mm-hmm. So come down to us. So we have both. Yeah. Well, and it's so and appropriately you're on, you know, you're sitting on the sail, your sailboat right now. And could you talk? Yeah, yeah, which is wonderful. And from my understanding, from what you shared with me back in December, you know, you have a lifetime on the water, of course, but sort of some circumstances arose and this sailboat came into your world. But you had some ideas around bringing sailing and that side of the kind of the water part of your culture. Share just a little bit about that if you're willing to. I always remember what Tanouye Roshi told me, he goes, Hawaiians are a seafaring people. That's how he started the conversation. How do they go where they've never been before, right? Hawaiians are a seafaring people. So, having lived in Makaha for a long time, I was close to one of the guys who was one of the original Buffalo Kealana. He was one of the original crew members of the Hokulea, which is a sailing canoe that went from. Honolulu to Tahiti. And it was always his, you know, he wanted to always teach. He was a well-known big wave surfer. You know, he's pretty much the guy who was the patriarch of Makaha Beach. And, but he always, you know, I had a lot of real close conversations. He was really close with Mao from Micronesia, who was the one who taught all the navigators, you know, this intuitive tradition of sailing, using just the stars and intuition. go from one place to another. And also, you know, through my conversations with Buffalo, he always wanted to teach younger kids how to sail. He was more into that. And then I just happened to run across his boat. Somebody was, you know, pretty much, it just came into my lap, you know? And that's what we want to do with it, you know? Well, is to teach kids how to sail, teach the younger generation, and then. learn about that because it's just another art. It's another fine art. The same principles apply to this and everything else. There's a certain amount of responsibility you have, a lot of intuitive perception that you need. You have to know when to go, when to do things at the right time. So it's just another method for training. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Well, this has been a rich conversation to say the least. Is there anything you feel like we missed? Anything you wanna make sure that we include? I'll probably pop up into my head later on, but it'll be too late. Yeah, there's always, there's so much, you know, I mean, you really, you really, you know, one thing I'll say is that, you know, you have all these traditions to teach you, but when it comes down to shugyo, you know, there's only you, you know, and if you know how to sit, you can train deeply on your, by yourself, you know, just on your own, but it's important to do it every day. but it's important to not just meditate, but to do the kind of, you know, where you were kind of a more of a, I wouldn't say stricter, but more structured forms of meditation. Because the thing about meditation that people that haven't done it, it becomes, they don't realize that it becomes painful. Right? It can be, it gets sore at certain points. And... And those are just thoughts in your mind as well. So you can break through that. So you need that kind of resistance to really push through, you know? To put it into perspective, like, you know, I remember before you could, when I first learned how to meditate, I was taught you could lay it out on the floor and meditate. Hmm. So you compare that to zazen, you know, it's meditation, right? But it's not really because when you're lying down, you can't move from that position. So you're not as effective from that point of view. And then you don't have all the things that force you physically to pass, push through. You have the physical obstructions. You need that kind of stuff to pass through. Otherwise, it just becomes like just, you know, too easy. need the resistance. That's why zazen is really important. I mean there are other traditions that do, any tradition you do at long time, and I don't know of very many others, but I know that zazen does that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thanks so much for sharing all your personal experiences. All right. I'm sorry.