E48 - Feldenkrais Method for Beginners ft. Nicolette De Saint-Amour

In this episode of our podcast, Alex welcomes back Nicolette de Saint-Amour, affectionately known as Niki, to dive into the intricate world of the Feldenkrais method. Fresh from completing their four-year professional training in Kelowna, Canada, Alex and Niki share their experiences and compelling insights they've gained along the way. As two individuals who started their Feldenkrais journey during the early stages of the pandemic, they've developed a deep compatibility as learners and explorers of this nuanced method. Their collaboration has not only been educational but also a great source of fun and discovery.

Throughout the podcast, Niki discusses her approach to teaching Feldenkrais classes through Red Beard Somatic Therapy, emphasizing how the method enhances sensory awareness and functional movement. Alex and Niki explore crucial concepts for beginners, such as the differences between Awareness Through Movement (ATM) and Functional Integration, two fundamental components of Feldenkrais practice. They highlight how these practices promote bodily integration and improved functionality, making everyday movements more efficient and comfortable.

Interested in understanding how gentle movements can radically improve your life? Then this episode is a must-listen! Dive deeper into the world of Feldenkrais by listening to the full episode where Alex and Niki break down complex ideas into understandable insights that can be applied immediately. Discover the upcoming lessons mentioned like "Uncommon Sensing," and explore more about Red Beard Somatic Therapy to enrich your learning. Don’t miss out on this opportunity to enhance your awareness and movement

Key Highlights:

00:00 Introduction of Nicolette de Saint-Amour
01:34 Exploration of Feldenkrais Classes
02:16 Discussion on Creativity and Course Design
04:42 Applying Feldenkrais Principles Post-Training
06:45 Functional Integration in a Virtual Setting
07:55 Reversibility and Movement Options
11:06 Unique Aspects of Feldenkrais for Beginners
16:23 Kinesthetic Appreciation and Learning Efficiency
20:36 Long-Term Benefits and Methodological Learning
24:43 Integration of Teleceptors in Movement
31:33 Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

Links and Resources:
 
Join Niki’s Internal Coherence Workshop in Red Beard Somatic Therapy: https://www.redbeardsomatictherapy.com/workshops

Transcript

0:00

I want to become this, so we're all very focused on becoming, but not necessarily on being, and then it's in within that being that each moment could be new, but it's, separate from becoming. It's it to be in a state of being is to be in a state of experiencing All right. Good afternoon, everybody. I today have on the show, Nicolette de Saint-Amour coming in from San Diego, California, and Nikki, as I'll call her on the program has been on the podcast before with me talking about the Feldenkrais method of somatic education. And that's what we are going to be talking about again today. Nikki and I just completed a four year professional training In the Feldenkrais method, at a school based in Kelowna, Canada, that's in British Columbia. And so we got to know each other quite well over 12 segments of two to three weeks each, starting in the, early part of the pandemic is when we, began, this Feldenkrais journey. And we've found that we've been, pretty compatible learners and explorers of the method, as we've gone. And Nikki has been offering some really lovely classes and series, both independently, through her own practice. but in recent months through Red Beard she's been generous to offer several, four week, series file using some of the Feldenkrais, Awareness through movement lessons. And it's been really fun collaborating in this way. and so Nikki and I, we were just going to talk and share a little bit of our perspective, having now completed the program and we wanted to reflect a little bit on, what are some of the key ideas that we think are useful for beginners to consider? Anybody who's new to the practice, what are some learning principles that make us get the most out of it? And just some of the key ideas, and it's a pretty nuanced method. So we thought we would just, speak to that a little bit. So that's the theme of our conversation today. Nikki, thanks so much for joining the show again. Thanks so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure to offer the lessons for Red Beard Somatic Therapy. It's yeah, it's just a wonderful creative process and so much. I think, this is such a great topic of, just diving in a little bit on the nuances of the Feldenkrais method so people can understand more what this is all about. Yeah, absolutely. Creative is a good word, especially, I think, for the way that you've been constructing your series. I think part of what is intriguing people and bringing in new students in for your series is they've got these great names. Somatic middle ground, embodied cognition, the next one coming up, uncommon sensing. So you've got a, you're poetic with your, you're, evoking some of the ideas from the Feldenkrais method, but just speak for a minute, just about how you put together, the, concept of these series that you're doing, Yeah, I think creativity comes from a place of void and a place of space. And, when I say space, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's, that it's just an empty space. It's that where new ideas and new things can emerge. And there's many different things that inform me, but there could be different life themes that inform me, different archetypal themes that inform me, different times of the year, I think, and, within that, how, that informs the structure. And then therefore I find the awareness through movement ATM lessons that somewhat fit the flavor, the taste of the, theme. And, that could be something that informs us in our life. The, method is meant to be practical. Yes, we can find that, Oh, it's, it informs my running. It informs my yoga. Everything's getting much nicer, but what is it that you're learning in the process of awareness through movement? Yeah, that's, yeah, that's a great way to say it. let's talk a little bit about, let's each speak a bit to how we're putting it to use now more, more front and center, having completed the program, let's start with you and then I'll share a little bit too. But yeah, you're doing these series. I imagine you're doing some one on one work. Share just a little bit about how you're practicing right now. Yes, so for sure, in my one on one work, finding there is two, two parts to Feldenkrais method. There's awareness through movement and there's functional integration. Of course, now we're also looking at the hands with practice, hands on practice, I like to call it. And but in functional integration to me is a little bit more of a moment by moment process that we've uncovered different parts of the person that there isn't a clarity and how they sense themselves there and more and more when we can integrate a whole self image to a person. ATM informs this. Awareness Through Movement informs this. Functional integration is a way of, I think it's putting a piece of a puzzle all together and you get a whole person, an integrated person. How you do that each time is unique. And, there isn't a, I don't know, a formula for it. so give a couple of you, you mentioned there's two aspects to the method, awareness through movement and functional, integration. And so just define those a little bit. so not in the theoretical terms, awareness through movement lessons. Those are often group lessons. Of course, it could be one on one. Those are structure, structured, guided lessons that help, develop certain aspects of, somatic awareness or functional awareness. Mm-Hmm. and again, oftentimes in a class format like this. The series that you've been doing, and then functional integration refers to the one on one work that often is, hands on in nature, if you're there with a person, although in my view, I'll be curious to hear if you agree with this or not, I think you can take a lot of the functional integration perspective, even in an online, virtual session. it's almost a little bit like, Tailoring, some of the, one of the awareness through movement lessons or S or multiples of them, tailoring it to the individual sort of in real time, so to speak. So in a way, I think there's a way of doing functional integration in a one on one setting online. What, do you think? Absolutely. And this is how I feel like I've been engaging with the process of functional integration. And now we can start to look at, the kind of hands with practice, but for virtual it's oh, I'm someone that needs some clarity in how it is. I sit at my desk because I get pain. And then you come to Alex, or me, and we find, okay, this is how we can tailor a lesson to you, and within that process of seeing how you move, or what's available to you, it's never really what's not available to you, what's available to you, and then we expound on that, and that there could be greater availability, and the thing that you have to do, or that you like to do. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Awesome. So let's, talk a little bit. Oh no. Okay. I'll share a little bit too. So, you're, that's your exploration. Great. And for me, I haven't yet been teaching awareness through movement classes. I might start that a little bit later this year, but, just from a, I have to pick and choose a little bit of, what I'm focusing on, but what I've been playing around with, and cause you've, been there for, one of the explorations, but in my. Friday Neurogenic Tremor Lab, that's my experimental, Friday program with people from around the world. It's a free class. And in that Friday class, I changed the theme this year. it used to just be straight TRE, tremoring practice. and we still do that in the second half of the class. But now the experimental aspect of it is working primarily with the Feldenkrais method, of waking up different aspects of awareness, waking up different parts of the body and breath neurologically, and, doing that each time and then immediately segwaying or transitioning into the neurogenic tremor process from TRE. And, what's exciting about it is these are all people who are, very experienced tremorers, but they have not, some of them may have some Feldenkrais background, but not necessarily so much. And what we seem to be discovering is that if we take about 30 minutes and we explore something, for example, like the pelvic clock or spine is a chain or differentiating the head, from the spine or coordinating flexors, or extensors, some of the classic, Feldenkrais, learning lessons. We can play with those and then now as we transition into the more, free flowing aspect of the neurogenic tremor, it's a bit more involuntary movement rather than the kind of voluntary movement that we do in Feldenkrais. But, people's tremors are completely changing. New things are opening up. they're freeing up, parts of their body that have not, been part of the tremoring. The, maybe they've heard that tremoring can be a full bodied experience, but they hadn't really experienced that. So people have been really excited about it. And, I myself have thought, so that's my, kind of bucket list for this year is to continue in that direction because there's actually some course material that I'm trying to develop a lot for the TRE community about taking some of Feldenkrais ideas, as a way to deepen and expand upon the tremoring practice. So that's my own, creative focus with, Amazing. TRE at the moment. So yeah, super fun to explore. I think Feldenkrais himself would have been, at least a little bit interested in, how these two things, Absolutely. might intersect super cool. let's talk about, for people who are beginners to the method, we've already defined a little bit, the ATM side of it. So class the group work versus the one on one work. Let's see if we can, I think what would be useful to articulate is what are the some of the key ideas that make Feldenkrais different from going to a Pilates class or yoga class or some other kinds of somatic dance or movement? What are some things that should be on a on a a new student of Feldenkrais's radar that helped them start to get the most out of the method. So I'm thinking just practical things, things that we look for as we get somebody up and rolling with the method. So let's just do a little back and forth. What's on you, what are some of the things that you try to get your new students to grasp that help them get the most from this process? What I find for, newcomers to the method is that, these movements can look like movements they've seen before, like pilates or yoga. And what can happen is that the, oh, it's familiar, so they go to the end range of the movement. They're still connected to willpower, or the achievement of the end goal. So what they start to learn is, order to sense this or get the most out of the method, I'm interested in the very beginning. I'm interested in the innervation of the movement, the inspiration that comes forth to find that there's a whole sense of myself. So then, that's a spreading of attention. And in this attention, there's a qualitative stage that can arise, and we're making these very fine distinctions with your attention with the parts of yourself. So in the beginning, what are these movements all about? Why am I doing this? no. I love that. so to expand on that, I like that. It's what, happens in the beginning of the movement, not the whole movement. I think that's a real, that's a real key of the Feldenkrais method is that it's taking, when we use the word functional movement just means living and breathing and operating in the real world. and, Feldenkrais himself, he certainly knew about dynamic real world activity. He was a martial artist. He studied it extensively. He even developed his own self defense system as a young man in Palestine. He, he was a physical laborer for a decade. So here's a guy who knew a lot about functional movement in sort of real time application. But then, and he was a soccer player and an athlete and all these kinds of things. But so when I, think about this aspect of the method. It's, okay, great. That's all well and good that we use, that we learn skills and we apply them in, real time with real weight, real, speed in application, but where the brilliance of the Feldenkrais method is setting aside time to slow things way down, created a, create a quiet environment externally, free of distractions. Internally to slow down to the point where, we come to a neutrality and arrest, almost every lesson we begin. Laying flat on your back usually and spake, spending a lot of time to get quiet and sense your starting point and only then, and now let's say we're exploring a movement like rolling to one side or lifting one knee. the, normal way of doing it is we don't just suddenly get to now I'm rolled onto my stomach, even though. Most of us, if we laid on our back and you said, roll onto your stomach, that's a pretty, most people would figure out how to make that happen. But the brilliance of the method is, to study within ourselves exactly, what happens when our, when we initiate the thought, I'm going to begin to roll now what does our breath hold a little bit? What's the first thing that moves? and, as you say, now, if we start to study the qualitative attention, and we might spend in a 45 minute awareness through movement lesson. It might only be in the last five minutes where the completion of the movement has emerged, for example, rolling onto one stomach, where everything before that has been getting really clear about how you process and organize to get to that. And I always tell people that in the, for many people probably start Feldenkrais and don't stick with it because it's boring. it's so slowed down. It seems disconnected from real world movement because of how nuanced it is. But anybody who can get past that initial sort of boredom, you'll realize, wow, it's, there's like a superpower in, in, in slowing way down like that, really sensing how your body breath mind is in coordination around these kinds of movements. And then. And then ultimately bringing it back into a real world movement or real speed and finding such a huge, shift in what you can sense and feel what you can control and your qualitative awareness around it. yeah, I just I like how you described, that piece of it. Absolutely. it's everything because then I can find if I go to do, I don't know, exercise or something like this, I can sense myself in a way that's not mechanical and I can get more bang for my buck with the exercise. Because there's more of myself integrated in my image. So there's more quality to how it is I'm tonifying my muscles in a way that it's evenly distributed. So this absolutely makes you better at what it is you want to do. It is a little superpower. what I, like about the method and I'm, glad it uses the word method, right? It's methodological. A simple way to say it is, it's a way of, it's a way of learning how to learn with, more specificity and how your brain and your body learn. And, so the reason I like the word method is because, it gives you a framework for taking any functional activity. It could be, sitting at your desk. It could be playing your violin. It could be, I don't know, how, you read, you hold a book and how your eyes move to read, and it provides a framework for, potentially getting more efficiency, elegance, quality from any funk driving, lifting something, anything really, but it provides a framework for, studying it, getting, finding clarity around how that activity can emerge from you with, with again, greater quality. and then later, you don't have to think about it anymore. Once you've studied it and you've now integrated it into your functional activity and you see that improvement, it's there with you. It's become you first, it becomes something you bring conscious awareness to, and then later you can integrate and internalize it. And then, And go on to the next thing. But I like that. That's what I, to, on the one hand, it's wow, it took us four years to study all this method. But what I like about it is I've, really learned how do you apply the Feldenkrais and thinking to like anything, like if I'm trying to figure out why is it that we know when I go hiking and my, my left knee always starts to hurt. Okay. I can, now I have a way I can study that, Yes, the physiotherapist or, okay, loosen up my glutes or some, something a little bit hoping it catches it. I now have a framework to slow things down and get more clarity around it and usually make the change myself. Right. And that's it's, the process of learning that it becomes second nature. It's oh, now, and then the opportunity to study in a way that I don't disconnect to myself, or to the pain or to the injury and go back to the you fix me paradigm Right, I can go back to these. I have a resource in these lessons where I can go into my own lab and find out what it is I do to create the pain in my knee or the pain in my back, which is that's such a, an autonomy that is so, special to have that we have this direct knowing we have a direct knowing that we can really be engaged with ourselves and our lives and or if I'm going to play the piano, or if I'm going to go play the sport, I'm engaged in the world right. with greater clarity in myself. I love that. Yeah, another thing that I, that I think Is a lesson I needed to learn as a beginner. So it's one that I, when I began Feldenkrais method specifically. So it's one I try to help nurture in others, is this, I like, it's like what you've already referenced. it's not necessarily completing the movement. It's not the what of the movement, but the how, and my favorite example is, there's a lesson where you're on your back and your hands, you're clasped behind your head, like that. And your knees are bent and it's a movement where we are bringing one elbow towards the knee. Now, many people could just immediately, if you efforted, you could, you just engage your core and you could bring your elbow and you could touch your knee. People have done sit ups and crunches and things like that. and some people could do it immediately. Other people, there'd be some effort, to get that much flexion so that the elbow would touch the knee. But the way that in that Moshe teaches that lesson. Is he's constantly telling people, don't touch your knee, don't touch your knee. so the way he structures it is you're, bringing your elbow towards your knee as though to touch your knee, but you get in trouble, these are for beginners. You get in trouble if your elbow does touch your knee, because what he's trying to show is. Don't get all the way there where the, what's going to create change for you is everything in between, not the final result, the quote unquote goal of elbow touching the knee. And so to me, the big shift is, it's not, can I achieve X or Y movement? Yeah, like later, there's a time and place to find out what your limits and end range becomes, but the real learning method, comes into the foreground when you have, let go of the outcome and you're approaching things from a perspective of a qualitative, ease, or I like a term that Moshe uses, kinesthetic enjoyment appreciation. It's okay, how can I bring my elbow in the direction of my knee? And there's a certain kind of a pleasure or, that's emerging. I can really, I, that my breathing is somehow coordinated in an elegant manner. The, my eyes move first, but that's, it's as though they help lead me in that direction. there's a lightness is starting to emerge. I can feel more of this. I can observe how I use the ground in the parts of me not moving in subtle ways that then give a sense of, and it's, all that, kinesthetic appreciation that is the rich neurological learning environment that then that's what stays with us in terms of finding this kind of ease within a pattern. So that's one that I find myself speaking to a lot. what. Do you resonate with I, of that? Yeah. yeah, that lesson, it's so much of of learning how it is to change the paradigm, to shift the paradigm from, and we're all in this paradigm to become something every since we're, I want to become this, I want to become this, so we're all very focused on becoming, but not necessarily on being, and then it's in within that being that each moment could be new, but it's, separate from becoming. It's it to be in a state of being is to be in a state of experiencing without the past memories of experience or the past knowledge of experience or that then inform your decisions now or what it is your acquisition of learning or goal orientation, it's a total paradigm shift, but in real pleasure is found in just in the state of experiencing and being. I love that. Let's talk about some of the key principles that Moshe Feldenkrais and our teachers teach. Some of the key, I guess I would think of it as the qualities that emerge as we study this, what are, some of the, what are some of the qualities of, good, movement or good function? and let's just go back and forth a little bit, things like, the use of attention or distribution of tone or, freedom of choice. Let's, you start and then I'll, and then we'll go back and forth a little bit. Themes that come are in my practice right now and in the lessons I bring forth is the even distribution of tone. So it's so much finding your skeleton and how your skeleton can be in your image to inform you about an even distribution of tone. And what do I mean by tone? It's by muscular efforts that no place is working harder than any other place. And so that, so the question of do I like the quality of my movement is the question I'll ask people to ask themselves. Do I like this quality? Or do I like this quality in my daily living when I'm in a hurry? Something has to work harder. And, so, to be in a qualitative state means that my tone, my muscular efforts is spread, my attention is spread, and that my breathing is free, and these are places I have people refer back to, to know that they're in a qualitative state of being, because then that way, you could sense yourself in a way that feels more elegant. Just feels more exquisite. Feels more pleasurable. Yeah, absolutely. I love that example that you even, evening out the distribution of tone because, to me, the contrast of that is when someone you're doing something and one part of you is working really hard. I don't know, let's say lifting up something with one arm. That's a little bit heavy. And if you're relying on your, say your shoulder and your bicep, and it's doing 80 percent of the work and it's going to feel heavy, there's going to be more, wear and tear on the joint, the possibility of an overuse injury. but the opposite of that, the even distribution of tone would be, okay, obviously your arm and shoulder are a part of that, but, what's your spine doing? How is your spine connecting to your pelvis? How's your pelvis connecting to your legs by bringing conscious attention to the entire movement pattern? Can you now find a way to do the same action, say lifting the thing, but you're not, hyper focusing on the immediate muscles, the short, the bicep or whatever, and you're bringing the rest of your body, into it creates a tremendous amount of efficiency and things like that. So I love that one as a key principle. One, one that I find myself thinking a lot about. Is, that was new for me in some ways with studying Feldenkrais is how much attention he gives to the importance of what's what he calls the teleceptors. Teleceptors are our eyes and our ears, maybe even our olfactory sense. we have these, three sensory things all in one location, our head, that all have two of them. we have two ears, we have two eyes, we have two, nostrils or sources of, smell. and this idea that, whether we know it or not, our use of our teleceptors are, is a huge part of how we organize the rest of ourselves in terms of how we face something, how we, organize. And so by bringing. To me, a big learning that I've gotten a lot of value in as I have studied functional move, the kinds of lessons we do on the floor, twisting, turning, rolling, sitting up, all these basic movements is, yeah. What's the relate? How do my eyes connect to that? and, are they inert or are they somehow, A part of the movement, or even my sense of hearing or my spatial awareness to the environment around me, if I can wake up those channels, neural or even the very refined movements that happen in the head. the way the head sits on the top of the spine has a tremendous amount of subtlety. because we need to have a very refined ability to, in a sense, move our teleceptors, our eyes and our ears and our, in our mouths and our nose. And so if somehow I bring that into my attention when I'm studying some other functional movement, like rolling or, any action, sitting up, et cetera, if I consciously attend to the use of my eyes and senses, it just, it's, it, it really helps me amplify the efficiency side of it, also the kinesthetic appreciation because hmm. Mm there's not a sense of a harmony between my head, neck, eyes, and ears, then to me it feels like a disconnected movement, something that doesn't have a sort of an energy to it. So that's one example I've been thinking of a lot about in my own practice. Yes. And then, of course, he also speaks of the head always in relationship to the pelvis and the head, and this is in a way that the pelvis is the driver and the head is floating at the top. And it's very hard for many people to sense that my head can be free or my eyes can be free or the differentiate, but to me, it's the most profound part of this. To have a free head is the most profound part of this whole thing. Alexander Technique was also very, he was very interested, that was his study as well, that the head could be free. So there's great importance to have in your orientation to study. In space of having these teleceptors be more available and within the image of the Yeah. Yeah. What's another one? Yeah. I guess reversibility comes to mind for me. Do you, what, how would you explain somebody who's never heard the term or the concept? How would you describe it? What's it, what's important about reversibility? So I think we were in a segment with Jeff Haller, right? And we were all, Oh yeah. let's, no, we're not going to give the Jeff Haller, calc, the calculus definition of it. No, let's be more basic than that. I propose. So, for me, in reversibility, or when I'm bringing it into someone's attention when they're doing a movement, is that within any moment, they can come back to the, moment I start to go so much in one direction, what happens with my breathing? What happens with that? At any moment in space, you have the possibility to change your orientation. And for Moshe, as a martial artist, this was everything. It was everything, even, and all the lessons are very specific to this, that at any moment, you can go forward, back, left, in all these cardinal directions. and choose to, yeah. and the martial arts example comes to mind for me and, in thinking back to my early days with, Kendo, Japanese fencing, was one of the sword arts that I did. And the way we would, the real, distinction between a beginner and somebody slightly beyond a beginner is when you would execute a sword cut. And then if you, if all you're thinking about is, putting all of your effort in that direction, and then somebody comes and they tip you, you're going to be off balance because you've put all of your attention and focus into the sword. And there's a sense the term we would use is over commit. It's like we put all of our attention and weight there. And then now we don't have the ability to go back or somebody, we would lose physical stability. And so then, what you practice a lot of time is how do you execute, a forward strike that has, enough speed and power, but, but your whole body doesn't go along with it, or you have the ability to quickly do something else. To me definitely relates to this, concept of, reversibility. And there's a real security in that. I feel secure in my, I feel safe in the world when there's this sense that I can in orient in many different directions. Yeah. and I like we in, in, reversibility, we learn that as a, there's certain things, it's like, Okay, am I in kinaesthetic appreciation? am I not over efforting? am I not goal oriented? Mm-Hmm. breathing free, meaning I'm not holding it or something. So there's these little things that are, am I not going beyond a sense of fatigue? Am I pausing to reset when fatigue starts to set in? So these are all these kinds of things that help us be, good learners. In the Feldenkraisian perspective, but then this, and then we can also ask that, or even how am I using the ground? We asked that question a lot, but we asked the question, okay. And is this reversible? So I'm going to start to roll at what point am I maybe my breath catches a little bit and it'd be hard for me to go back, reverse the movement. Yeah. and, I've lost that reversibility and I might be like using a little bit of effort or momentum. And so in Feldenkrais, we want to see how can we find elegance in movements where we don't, lose the ability to come back to where we started or to switch directions on a moment's notice. And so I like that to me, when I do find reversibility in a simple movement pattern, there's a sense of calm that comes with it. As you said, that security. I also think this is one of the Feldenkraisian principles that we can translate into off the mat into real life a little bit because to me, reversibility includes this idea of like mental flexibility or, or even when I think about reactivity from an emotional response perspective, like by the way, some, there's some, traditions that are like, the whole goal is to transcend our emotions and not be affected by that's not, what I believe at all. I think emotions are super powerful. and if anything, we should become more interested in our emotional experiences rather than less. However, but is there choice around it? Can you notice something arising? and have options associated with it. if something frightens you, feeling to me, feeling the, fright or feeling the, the surprise noticing the ripple through the nervous system, no problem with that whatsoever. But if we, if we have trained ourselves to have reversibility, then that can all just as quickly as it comes on. It can also recede into the background. And that's the same as any other kind of emotional response that we can move through it, or we can set it down or still be in relationship to, the current situation. Right. one way that I, really like that concept of learning reversibility on the mat, but then how do we bring that into our sort of emotional life, so to speak? Absolutely. So there's some kind of emotional reversibility and resiliency and there could always be a sense of, I have this neutrality, which is my midline, which is my center that I can come through, come back to. yeah, I find, so it's like, what are the, what's the meaning of the movement? And how do you find that it trickles into your well being Wonderful. so let's pick one more. Let's see if there's one more, concept, that would be worth. did we discuss, inclusive attention? No, I think that'd be an interesting one. Yeah. Yeah. Inclusive and exclude. Why don't you talk about the definition a little bit? Inclusive attention, what we want in, or in Feldenkrais is a person to have a whole sense of themselves. So that attention is spread throughout. Exclusive attention is when, oh, I start to get too fixated on that pain in my back or my shoulder, and that is what echoes louder than every part of myself. Yeah, and then that's, it's so interesting because, just speaking of pain, like some people may always live with pain, but can they have an inclusive attention that pain can change how the brain responds to pain? Yeah, no, I totally agree. And it's a little bit like, yeah, if you're, if the, if you're mostly aware of, a particular pain in a focused way, it's like the volume level on that pain is high and the volume level of other things gets lower. That's when we're. We're really bogged down by this, in a way of mental fixation. So you're, what you're saying is if we can learn to make the shifts, doesn't mean that pain will necessarily go away, but if it can be now included in a broader context where, yeah, that maybe that's one element. And there's also a much, there's much beyond that. In addition that way of attending or awareness can often be a more comfortable one. And sometimes, a more easeful way to, sometimes the pain will diminish because we've shifted our focus in that Yes, and it's so much that our nervous system can find that there's different possibilities by this process of inclusive attention and making these very fine distinctions. Our nervous system says, Oh, there's different possibilities. I like possibilities. no, I think that's a good point is that was one key idea that Feldenkrais, Put language, I think some people know this intuitively. It's a little bit like you you, as soon as you noodle on a problem, noodle on a problem, you're trying to resolve something and then, you you're fixated on it in a way that it's, when you're in the shower or you're sleeping or you went for a walk, it's in these sort of random moments when a new idea or insight might emerge, come where in a way the solution might come forward whatever the problem was. And I think. And I think his idea of inclusive and inclusive, exclusive attention helps get to that a little bit. And what, in a way of what he's saying is that our nervous system as a whole, the intelligence of our entire brain, and nervous system, does its best. It's most creative and reorganizes, has that adaptive equality, and Feldenkrais believed that we possess way more neuroplasticity than, historically, and now other things are catching up and we now know how, but he believed that, many decades before it was proven, which was to me a pretty cool insight from him. But this idea that it's, We have to be able to shift away from the fixation on problems, whether they're physical, emotional, psychological, logical, that it's when we can, bring in the rest of the nervous system in a way and create the conditions where it can, respond and adapt in real time. Now, is where we have the opportunity for a solution or an elegance or something to emerge. And that's the use of how we find within the lessons novelty and variation to, bring forth some new insight. And I'm somebody who's like pretty good at exclusive attention, focused thinking, my wife can attest to that, she'll try to interrupt me when I'm thinking about something. And I don't want to totally give up the I like to me, I don't want to make it seem that, that there's, not a value to both. I'll be interested in hearing your perspective. Cause I'll tell you what I believe, maybe this is self serving because I'm a good exclusive attender. but what I like about exclusive attention, focused awareness is where we, we've reduced, let's say we're trying to understand our, hip joint within ourselves in a lesson. okay. If I begin by paying attention to my eyeball and the sounds of the room and okay, yeah, there's my hip. If I start with that really broad awareness, I may not be able to focus in on the area that I'm trying to, improve or develop more awareness around. And so sometimes exclusive attention is very useful in terms of defining a context, bringing a lot of specialist specificity into a sort of a one zone. But then the very key, the key thing is, all right, you've done that. You did plenty of that. Now, how do we contextualize? How do we broaden out and, include more sources of attention. And now suddenly that specificity that you noticed when you spotlighted something like your hip joint, now it can it become part of the whole? So it's not remaining as a part, so to speak. Yes, absolutely. I think it was an embodied cognition series that I taught this lesson, really clarifying the parts of the sacrum, the hip joint. And for some people that could be like, Oh, this is quite, I'd never paid attention to things and said, it takes me one or two times or three times of referring back to the last, I can sense that movement. I can sense that movement because my attention is growing. Something is refining in my image. It took that exclusive attention, but it's always in relationship to the greater whole. So this, it's always this. I'm relating to something else that's clarifying that, right? I think, and then it's so it's a relationship between internal world and external worlds, the relationship of inclusive and exclusive that inform each other. Yeah, someday I'll do a little bit more. I, this, maybe you and I can talk more about this, but, part of the reason that I got interested in Feldenkrais method, there, there were a bunch of reasons and I read a lot of his writing and this and that, but one, one of the reasons was that, when I would practice, Feldenkrais, I found a real similarity in the way that the quality of awareness and mind that would emerge from me, similar to. when I would practice martial arts or even in my, in Zen meditation and so that I found that there was something about paying attention in that way that brought forward forth that quality of awareness that, that we look for in, in, Zen training specifically and in our particular, lineage of Zen, which connects a lot to martial arts. We talk a lot about a concept that, called, immovable mind. It comes from this old text, written by, it's a sort of a series of letters between a swordsman and a, Buddhist, zen monk or zen master, and it's the Buddhist master explaining to the sword person, hey, you already know all these things about Buddhism. through your sword training. Let me see if I can point it out to you that you already are doing this in a way. And what it's mostly talking about is this concept of the, a quality of mind or a quality of attention that doesn't get fixate, that doesn't stop or dwell or gets stuck. So it's this idea that as soon as your mind attaches or fixates, now it loses a sense of freedom or possibility. And to me. That's really what we're, there's, it's a direct connection to how we are, what we're looking for in Feldenkrais method as well, which is how do we go from that focused attention, which is a little bit more in that direction of can be in the direction of sort of fixation and then broaden it into the whole experience. And so that shift of being, having your mind, kind of stick on details to suddenly you're living in the full picture in a coordinated manner. That transition I find that Feldenkrais really supports it really well for me. I don't know I just thought I'd share I love that. Yeah. And if I, to expound on that, it's it's curiosity we're working with. That I can sense. This is a sensory, it's a sensory method. I'm learning how to sense myself. And with that, it's always a maybe this, maybe that, maybe heavy, maybe lighter, longer, whatever the sensory distinctions I'm making. So we are the century center of our world relating to, to, in a way that when I'm in the world of sensation, I can sense each moment can be new. And it's even when I engage in jujitsu, for instance, what is this direction possible? What's the weight of the person? Where's their ground? Where's my ground? I'm constantly in a maybe this or maybe that process. Right. I have to be completely in the moment to be in that maybe this or maybe that process. That is the prefrontal cortex of the brain. Yeah. yeah, The moment I have an idea of something, I've lost the possibilities. right. Oh, I love that. Nikki, I think this is a good start in terms of bringing in some of the things we've been thinking about and what we think, comes arises from a Feldenkrais practice and the things that bring, that helps somebody get richness out of it, in the early and the later stages. yeah, anything else you want to share or add before we wrap up? It's, been a pleasure. I, and I find for myself, each time I engaged in teaching the lessons, it's a learning process and a refinement for me. And, yeah, just, happy to be here and look forward to, bringing forth the upcoming lessons uncommon sensing. Awesome. Thanks, Nikki. Thanks for the convo.