' One Way to Do It'- Music Professionals chat about their skills.

Damian O'Neill - The Undertones guitar player and co-writer

• Paul Brewer / Damian O’Neill • Season 1 • Episode 7

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Damian must have a ‘Dorian Grey’ like statue in his attic because he hasn’t aged much at all in the 30+ years since I first met him . 
The writer (and guitar player) of such hits as ‘My perfect cousin ‘ tells of the good times and the not so good time of being in a  ‘punk’ rock band . 

If you'd like to buy me a coffee - Many Thanks ...

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Paul Brewer:

Today's guest is Damien O'Neill, perhaps best known as one of the Undertown's guitar players. I started by asking him does touring feel the same as it did, considering the time that's passed since the classic Teenage Kicks was released?

Damian O'Neill:

I would say mostly. Obviously, we're all getting a bit on in life, but I think it's actually, to be quite honest, it's more fun now. Right, i think it's the best time. That ever was back then That, for obvious reasons, we're more chilled out, we're less hang-ups about each other, we're more relaxed with each other. There's no record company breathing down your neck.

Damian O'Neill:

We pick the dates when we want, where we want. We do it in our own time. We don't do it full time, so that helps. We get to stay in much nicer hotels, oh right, and we all get single rooms. That's really important, single rooms. We get to also bring our respective partners with us as well.

Paul Brewer:

Right, So really it's a much more grown up way of touring.

Damian O'Neill:

Absolutely Yeah.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, because I remember talking to Keith about Keith Anderson, our mutual tour manager, our friend, and he was saying that one of the bands he was working with and he was saying that five minutes before the stage time the band just appear and everything's okay. Nobody has to be worrying, nobody has to be chased, nobody has to be sobered up, nobody has to be. you know all that sort of stuff.

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, yeah, there is that as well. I mean, you know, because back in the day me and John might go, not missing, but we might have a few snifters somewhere in a pub and be dragged out, or especially me. I mean that doesn't happen anymore. We're, you know, we're quite reasonable and we know what's expected of us and we want to give a good show and all that.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, billy, i think is maybe the secret to the band, just the way I hear it, absolutely. Do you feel that as well?

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, you know the old cliche you're only as good as your drummer. It's absolutely true. What's true? Totally true. Billy is he's the I don't know the magic of it The magic bullet in the band. He is the one that holds it all together. He's an incredible drummer, as everyone knows. He's got that identity that gives the undershows this uniqueness.

Damian O'Neill:

Whereas in the past it probably would have been Fergal, of course, because of his unique voice. But it's Billy that holds the glue together. So without Billy it wouldn't work. You know we have played without Billy and he's got ill. You know he has been ill in the past And it's been okay. But you know, if Billy couldn't, if Billy said tomorrow, look, i'm quitting the band because of health reasons, the band will quit, we'll call it quits, we wouldn't, there's no point continuing, just wouldn't be the same. And does everybody feel the same?

Paul Brewer:

about that, do you think?

Damian O'Neill:

I definitely think so, yes, yes.

Paul Brewer:

Wow, so does he get extra money.

Damian O'Neill:

No way. No, not for all the grief he put us through back in our heyday. Oh really, he should be paying us Right? Tell me more. Oh no, i won't go into too much. Read Mickey Bradley's book. He goes in there. Oh right, okay, that's all that is there.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, Speaking of books, any chance of? do you remember back in your flat back in the day, you showed me a huge collection of undertone's writings?

Damian O'Neill:

Yes.

Paul Brewer:

Like any chance that that being turned into a book. I keep talking about it, paul.

Damian O'Neill:

It's a long plan record. My prayer wife is like bored stuff. And he said oh yeah, i'm going to do this book. Now It's getting there. I've compiled, i have compiled lots of photographs which I took over the years. You know from my stupid little insta-matic camera, so the quality isn't the best, but it's still really interesting. There's still a good batch of photos. So I've compiled the best of that and I'm writing little articles, stories, not necessarily about the undertones but about even the troubles. Bloody Sunday, for instance. Or when I went to see Johnny Thunders and the Heartbreakers in 1977, it was the first punk band I've ever seen things like that. So I've got it. And where was that? That was in Manchester in October 77, the greatest show ever been to still to this very day. Amazing, i was only 16. Really Imagine that.

Paul Brewer:

Was this pre-Undertones?

Damian O'Neill:

Oh yeah. Well, undertones were going. We were playing the Casbah in 1977, but we hadn't made a record yet or anything like that. We were non-entities.

Paul Brewer:

All right, so you weren't on the guest list then.

Damian O'Neill:

That certainly wasn't. But Johnny Thunders was my guitar hero. I love the New York Dolls, so just getting to see him live was the highlight of my life. And he was on fire. They were brilliant. They were brilliant. And was Marcy there? I wonder, he might have been. He probably. I bet your life he was.

Paul Brewer:

But you know we wouldn't have known him then, of course, by the way, I'll tell you what else was there.

Damian O'Neill:

I've found out since You know Billy Duffy, the guitarist of the cult. Was it the cult? He was in Billy Duffy. Yes, indeed, he was in that. He was at the same gig that I was watching, johnny Thunders, because he was another Johnny Thunders. You know he adored him as well.

Paul Brewer:

Wow, incredible. Back on the undertones. Trip Paul is, in many ways, an incredible replacement for Virgil. What are the chances of that? What are the chances of that? He's totally different, but he's the same, but he's the same.

Damian O'Neill:

How does that work? We got lucky. We got so lucky. I mean, obviously Paul's from Derry, and that was crucial. Whoever replaced Virgil had to be from Derry, you couldn't get away. It was even somebody from Belfast or somebody from Bonkrana, you know what I mean. It had to be somebody from your own city. And especially help that. He's from the bog side. They knew the crack and all that. We got so lucky because he's not only a great singer, great frontman, but he's so funny, really smart, intelligent guy as well, and a massive, massive music fan.

Damian O'Neill:

And he brought a bit of enthusiasm. You know, a newfulness that we needed. You know gets to kick up the arse, so he was a godsend. Thank God, bless Paul McLuhan.

Paul Brewer:

He was in a band with Billy originally wasn't it He was.

Damian O'Neill:

He was a band club. That's how you found him, didn't you? Yeah, he was in a band called the Carolines in the 90s. I think they only made one single or something. To be honest, i didn't know Paul back then. I only met him briefly, just before he joined the undertones, so I didn't read. He was new to me because I live in London, you see, and the others all lived in Derry, so they knew Billy obviously knew him very well.

Paul Brewer:

Virgil in many ways is can't be replaced, but Paul replaced him.

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, well, we didn't ask Virgil. You know that we didn't even bother Because we knew he'd say no, right, yeah, he just would have. So when Billy suggested Paul, i was a bit apprehensive about how the hell you're going to replace Virgil. But when he turned up at that first rehearsal, you know, when we went through the songs, it was just obvious from the first second song well, whoa, this is magic, this is going to work, this is really, really going to work. Obviously, paul was shouting himself when we played in the nerve center.

Damian O'Neill:

You know he, it's in front of you, you know the heart of it. And Derry, where we came from, playing in front of these mad fans who hadn't seen us for 30 years or whatever. How was that going to go down, you know? but they accepted him right from the first note he sang.

Paul Brewer:

Wow, that is absolutely mind boggling story, well, wouldn't you think about it? So, post undertones, there was the petrols. Who were they Exactly? Yes, indeed, when our paths crossed. Yes, how was that period in terms of dealing with record companies and all that?

Damian O'Neill:

Well, it was a bit tough with record companies because, as you probably remember, we were with various different ones and that didn't help our cause. Originally we had signed to Demon Records for Manic Pupthirl, our first LP, and that was a one-off deal. Then we signed to Polydor. That was supposed to be a, you know, a five, six album deal, but after the third album we let, we managed, our manager managed to get us out of the contract. There was a loophole where they didn't send accounts to us. But basically the reason why we wanted to leave was the MD who had signed us had left to Manic yeah, to Manic's Paul McCartney or something like that And the guy that took over.

Damian O'Neill:

The guy that took over I'll not name no names, but he was a bit of a dickhead basically, and he didn't really like us And it was obvious we weren't going to get much support. So luckily we were able to leave Polydor, but the problem there. And then we signed the Virgin, but the problem there. We had built up this momentum, especially with Babel, with her second album, and then we had a bit of a knockback with her third album, because it was a bit patchy And when we signed the Virgin they kind of. I guess they didn't really know what to do with us and because the momentum had gone, it was a struggle to keep it up. You know Our John had left, of course as well. That's really important.

Damian O'Neill:

Our brother decided to leave. That was before, just before my time, i think, i think it was actually. yeah, when John left, we felt like we had to start all over again, in a way, because John was our main songwriter. But we came back where really what I felt was a fantastically strong record pop record actually which is where you came in, paul, i think.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah.

Damian O'Neill:

We really, because we went I mean Fair Playdy version they gave us lots of money to record that record. We spent a fortune in Los Angeles A fortune.

Paul Brewer:

I think I've done her things Yeah.

Damian O'Neill:

I think Virgin have somewhere. They'll never get it back, that's for sure. You know, we had Scott Litt as producer, one of the best in the world at the time, famous for producing RAM. We were in Oceanway Studios, one of the best studios in the world, where the Beats Boys recorded. It was all the best of the best And we thought we made a great record. But unfortunately, times had moved on and the music climate had changed And suddenly over here in Britain at least you know we had the stone roses and all that coming up. Yeah, The dancey stuff.

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, we felt like yesterday's men, you know, Even though we were doing the dancey stuff previously we'd missed it Before, everybody else was Yeah, we'd missed it, we were ahead of our time. And then, by the time Kimmy Crazy came out, people had caught up with us, caught up with the music, but not with us. We were considered old hat. However, in Ireland we went down a treat. Kimmy Crazy was loved and we played so many shows and we did the Fela and all that a couple of times.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, I remember that.

Damian O'Neill:

That really encouraged us, But unfortunately in the UK, where it really matters, we were dead in the water.

Paul Brewer:

Like, from my point of view, it was a great time, because it was a great time It was a great time Yeah. Going on tour, yeah, it was a great time. But like the big picture, yeah, and I guess the big picture was changed, wasn't it Of?

Damian O'Neill:

course it does. I mean a bad success, you only. You know we were having a great time, i'm not disputing that, as long as the tour support came in from Virgin, you know. But once that, once they pulled the rug and they dropped this, actually the good times were over And we struggled on for another album in two years I think. But it was obvious We were finished. You know, yeah, it was. It was getting hard. It was hard to justify going when nobody, when your clienty half filled audiences at clubs and stuff and there was no money left and you could hardly pay, pay the rent and whatever you know.

Paul Brewer:

So yeah, Like this is looking back on it And would you have a different view of it at the time, do you think, was there the hope or?

Damian O'Neill:

There was hope. Of course there was. I think in hindsight it might have been good to, because, because we had been together and played for years and years, maybe if we'd taken a break after our last record, far Proof, and maybe got to reconvene again. But we, just everybody I think Cairne and Raymond particularly were sick of it And they wanted to just move on Right And do something else, you know, and maybe just get real jobs. I think you know, because, especially Cairne, he was stuck as he had a kid you know, none of us had kids. He had a kid and he wanted to support his family and it was understandable. He wanted to earn the proper money, earn a wage. So I think he just, you know, he wanted to get a real, so-called real job.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, Like I think to remember at the time back in 1990, whatever, were you on 150 quid a week or something like that, something like that. Like that was, that wasn't. that would pit a pit in the stain, you know what?

Damian O'Neill:

I actually think it was a hundred even. I don't know. Maybe you're right, maybe it was 150. It definitely went down. Maybe after you left, paul, it went down.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah.

Damian O'Neill:

Well, especially when, like I say, when Virgin dropped us, it was a struggle to stay afloat. Totally hard work.

Paul Brewer:

I don't know if you remember, but I sort of I went and worked with madness for a bit. I think that was the reason that I jumped ship, or whatever.

Damian O'Neill:

We probably couldn't afford to pay you. You know, we probably said to you Right, We can't keep you pay you anymore because we don't have the money. That's probably why you jumped ship.

Paul Brewer:

Maybe it was, who knows, i can't remember. You know the whole fireproof thing as well. That sort of felt funny to me, like it felt a bit like a last gasp, i you know Yeah it was?

Damian O'Neill:

Did you feel that it kind of did It did? I tried to form a band with Raymond Wavewalkers, Raymond Brandon, Brandon Kelly or bass player Kevin Sharkey of ours on drums. So no, Kearn, basically we didn't, we didn't we played a few lives.

Damian O'Neill:

We played a few live shows. I think you've probably heard the songs, paul you would have. Raymond would have sent you the songs, but we never, we never. It never went anywhere. Basically we never made a record or anything like that. We made demos but we didn't get any further. And then After that I made a solo record of my own with pop tones, alan McGee's label. It was an instrumental, sampled, kind of film music, kind of soundtrack-y LP on CD only, which was great because that satisfied my creative juices at the time, and it was around the end that the undertones reformed, around late 1999, early 2000.

Paul Brewer:

How long did Wavewalkers last then? How long between the end of one project and the beginning of another?

Damian O'Neill:

sort of thing.

Paul Brewer:

Where they sort of all intertwined Yeah there was a bit of a gap.

Damian O'Neill:

After that, petra Muckson and me and Raymond started collaborating. I'd say it only lasted probably about a year, if less, and we probably did. I think we only did three shows, live shows. It fizzled out. Basically, it fizzled out.

Paul Brewer:

Just explore the negative side for a second. At any stage did you feel like giving up, did you feel that this is it, my boat went all gone, yeah, sort of.

Damian O'Neill:

I did a couple of day jobs, yes, like normal jobs. I worked in an organic fruit and veg company for about a year. Actually, i was packing vegetables and then I got promoted to answering the phones in the office. But that was fun. I enjoyed that because that was a friend of mine who ran the business, so it was very late back. It wasn't like you had to be on every day, but I had a year and 11. I had to pay the mortgage and things like that. I was still getting the odd royalty check for undertones for publishing. I had a year and 11. Did I think music was over, wasn't sure? no, not. Then I knew something else. Something will come along. I knew something, something was. So when Alan McGee signed me actually that was great because he gave me a huge advance I got like ten grand and that was amazing. I was able to pay a bit of my mortgage off. It was great, it was really great. And how did that come about Through Kevin Shields.

Paul Brewer:

Ah, right, okay.

Damian O'Neill:

Kevin Shields was a good friend of mine And obviously Kevin knows Alan very well, alan McGee because of my bloody Valentine on Creation. So I know that Matterdoor Records was interested in me as well and my stuff, my music. But because Pop Tones, this new label, alan started it, because he offered me all this money. I went for the money basically, rather than the cool label which my brain should have went for Matterdoor, to be honest, because they're much more nurturing and caring, whereas I just, i think I was broke and I needed the money. So I wanted to be Pop Tones, but of course Pop Tones stuck it out and it just died to death. You know, it didn't get promoted or anything.

Paul Brewer:

So was McGee, put ten grand there and see what happens. Was that the approach? ten grand, yeah, he had a lot of money.

Damian O'Neill:

He had a lot of money from Oasis, he had a day of publishing distribution day somebody So he had a lot of money to spend. So he did it with a lot of artists not just me, i mean he did it out of because he really liked the music He definitely did. He thought his label was going to be the next big thing But unfortunately it just didn't. For some reason it didn't click. I don't think he had many hits with his label at all, but my music was certainly not easy to market because it was instrumental and I wasn't doing it live, so I wasn't a band, i wasn't a singer-songwriter, so it wasn't easy to market.

Paul Brewer:

Your current project. I was listening to it this morning, actually on Kron. It feels very Irish, you know, which is kind of an obvious thing to say But I was thinking yeah, they're having a warranty.

Damian O'Neill:

I'm having a warranty.

Paul Brewer:

But I wonder, are you more Irish than I am Simply because you've thought about it more in a more and where you're from? like the combination and the times you grew up in?

Damian O'Neill:

Do you know what I mean?

Paul Brewer:

I mean, i had never had any reason to dislike Britain. you know the UK Because my whole experience over there was great and the people I knew over there were great. Your experience was different with the Bay of Fares day.

Damian O'Neill:

No, actually it's not. My experience with most British people has been amazing. I mean, I still live in London. that's Britain. It's not the British people, It's the governments they vote for.

Paul Brewer:

Unfortunately, that.

Damian O'Neill:

I have the big, big, massive problem with, and particularly this last lot, a bunch of thieves, crooks. You know, the Tories. But the main reason I'm more angry than I have been for years since that period of motion days actually is because of Brexit, because they pushed through Brexit on a lie, you know, and how much that has messed up, or is messing up, the peace process, the delicate peace process that took years and years of negotiation To achieve that wonderful thing, and now it's. You know It's messed up because of Brexit and because they had a. There had to be a border somewhere, you know, you know, and it fortunately it's down the Irish sea, because there's no fucking way They would have put it up. Can I curse, by the way, my love course you can there's no fucking way.

Damian O'Neill:

No, they're gonna put it a land border, you know, in the north, and partitioning off the north again. No way.

Paul Brewer:

And you know my initial sort of question there was perhaps reflecting at, you know, your younger experience With it, with the troubles and stuff like that, you know, and all the stuff that I didn't have to deal with it at all, or even You know as a 10 year old or whatever.

Damian O'Neill:

There we've all got. You know, we're all, we're all damaged. Anybody from the north we grew up through that, even if you didn't lose close relatives or Whatever, we're all Fucking damaged, that's obvious. I mean, i talked to Raymond and Cairne and Brandon and And we're you know we for instance, recently the BBC have been showing this really great Six part documentary called once upon a time in Northern Ireland. It's wonderful, but It's basically people, normal people, talking about their experiences of the troubles you know, from from part of military members to soldiers, to Widows, to children who parents were killed, whatever. It's pretty hard one, but what? it's fascinating as well. But watching that It's like I realize we're all. You know we grew up in a war zone and lived through it for 30 years and it's bound to affect you and We're all, we're all fucked. You know we're all a bit damaged by them.

Paul Brewer:

Oh.

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, yeah, not, nobody's got a. Yeah, everybody, everybody, everybody. We're all damaged. Horrible things happened in by everybody and you know, for whatever reason and it's It's, it's gonna take a long, long time, generations, for that to fizzle, to maybe fizzle out. But we should always remember what happens and make sure we don't repeat them same mistakes again.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, so Like the under towns, that's the bread and butter at the moment. Yeah, yeah.

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, that's my main job. Well, that's because we, you know, we, we play like we do. We've been doing a lot of live shows in the last couple of years, especially catching up from the COVID years, you know, where we haven't done anything, and that has been bringing in money, good monies, and we sell quite a lot of merch. So we, i just about make a living from, from the undertones, yeah, and then, like I say, i get the all-round the check from undertones as well, which is great. So, yeah, it's my main bag. I Really, and it's as I said earlier, it's really really we all enjoy it And we'll keep going as long as you know, one of us don't, one of us doesn't have a help major health problem, hopefully, the finance of the operation.

Paul Brewer:

It's Primarily live. That's the income anyway, and the occasional royalty check, which is References to the past, i guess, rather than current sales. Do you own the back catalog now, or anything?

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, we, we did own the back catalog, which was amazing. Many years ago we managed again, our manager, andy Ferguson, managed, to Get it, get us back, which is very unique because a lot of bands Signed it away through protruding. We, we owned it for years, but then a couple years ago We sold it to BMG For for quite a good lot of money. So again, you know, we're lit, we're all living off that as well, which is great. We all, we, you know every the five members, fergal included, we, we all got a chunk of money. So we're we.

Damian O'Neill:

You know, we got very lucky there and he negotiated the deal and we did okay and Is Andy still around? Yes, he's sort of he's retired. He lives down in Dorset. Dorset, yeah, dorset, he's not. he's kind of He's the occasionally deals with the undertones, the original things, but he's kind of I Slow and down, he's not doing much anymore.

Paul Brewer:

I had a, he had his own health problems.

Damian O'Neill:

He had cancer.

Paul Brewer:

Yes, I'm doing yes.

Damian O'Neill:

You probably know it, and it was quite precarious for a while, but he recovered and Ever since he's just Been taking it easy. You know he's not. He doesn't go to London anymore, He doesn't. I think he avoid stress at all times.

Paul Brewer:

I in contact with Steve at all these days.

Damian O'Neill:

Yes, in fact, i seen Steve Only three weeks ago in America. He turned 60 and he had a big party. He had a big shindig, basically down in Palm Springs in California. So me and Viv, my wife and a Mutual friend, nick Nick Brown, we flew to Seattle and we stayed with Steve and his partner It's his girlfriend and then we all flew internal flights down to Palm Springs And he was joined by all these other as muckers from all around America, whatever, and we had a brilliant time the whole week in this resort in Palm Springs swimming, eating, you name it, drinking, whatever party, and basically so we had a, we had a ball. Another project I have I didn't mention Paul was the everlasting Yeah, me, cairn, brendan and Raymond. Of course you record, and at the moment, as well, Yeah so we made a.

Damian O'Neill:

We made an album few years ago called anima rising And now we've just gone into the studio the last couple of days because we have we've had three new tracks Written over the last couple years, so we were in studio there on Friday and Sunday and We're gonna go back in again a couple of weeks time. So it's all Sounding great and I'm getting very enthusiastic about this And we'll basically sorry we'll have six tracks Finished, hopefully soon.

Paul Brewer:

Right Now I actually I saw that on social media and I looked up the studio and the studio is particularly synth based.

Damian O'Neill:

Yes, it had an off-road.

Paul Brewer:

Are you using those functions? Don't worry, yeah, don't.

Damian O'Neill:

It's Mark at the synthesizer. He's got the human ligature advisor. Somebody famously wrote well, i don't know, it's got a lot of keyboards, but it's deceptive. It's mostly. it's going to be virtually all guitars and bass and drums. You might use the odd noise, but that's all.

Paul Brewer:

Right, so the studio wasn't picked because of the synthesizers, then Is that a fair statement?

Damian O'Neill:

Oh God, no Right. No, no, it was picked because it was in South London, where most of us live.

Paul Brewer:

Right, okay, the practical approach. Very good, i might see it. The The boil Is it Forest Fest or boil The Forest Fest? Yeah, you're doing more over here, yeah.

Damian O'Neill:

Yeah, we're doing. We're doing three festivals that weekend. We're doing Leopard's Town, then I think we're doing Boil Arts Festival, which is up in further north, i think.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, ross Common, that's not it.

Damian O'Neill:

Ross Common, and then we're doing Forest Fest, which is down near Nicola Woods. Yeah, emo.

Paul Brewer:

Yeah, it's about half an hour away from here. Actually, the last time I saw the under towns, i think was Leopard's Town, was it? Was that the last gig? Where was the last gig? Or Punchestown, punchestown?

Damian O'Neill:

Punchestown, that was the Dars Street.

Paul Brewer:

Actually, before you go, tell us the story of how you got there.

Damian O'Neill:

Oh yeah, okay, We're basically led for our own funeral because we were in France doing a couple of festivals Two days, three days before the Punchestown gig And the night before we were due to leave the next morning to go to Punchestown, our tour manager had asked Mickey Bradley, how far do you think it would take to drive from? I think we were in Bordeaux or something Somewhere quite far down south, up to near Paris or something, so we can get the ferry over to Ireland? I think we had to get a ferry or something like that. Anyway, basically, mickey misjudged, it's not only take three, four hours or something, whatever you think.

Damian O'Neill:

So we basically what happened was we missed the ferry and then we had it because it was our very last show. We didn't want to miss the show, the festival. So we had a terrible time trying to chase down a private, higher private airplane to fly us to Dublin. We finally somehow found one. Some little airport outside Paris or something Cost us an arm and a leg, of course, to hire God knows how much, but we actually somehow made it to Dublin and got an escort, i think, straight to the festival by the Gardie, because we were like due on any minute and we managed to get on stage maybe 15 minutes late and we cut our set short because of it or something. So late for our own frigging funeral Couldn't make it up.

Paul Brewer:

On that note, let's leave it So. that's the Undertone's way to do it. Many thanks to Damien for taking the time to chat. The Steve mentioned earlier is, of course, steve Mack, the petrol-emotion singer. If you'd like to see the Undertone's live, they're here in Ireland on the 20th of July at Leberstown Racecourse, at the Boyle Arts Festival in Roscommon on the 21st and at Forest Fest in Emo County Leish on the 22nd. Please visit GeniusMoveie to find out about audio courses to suit you. Thanks for listening.

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