33. From Judgment to Joy: Navigating Divorce in Conservative Communities (Part 1)

In this episode we pull back the curtain on Naomi's divorce journey and her perspective six years later. We address systemic issues that often leave women feeling trapped--issues such as financial dependency, lack of education, and inadequate support from family and faith communities. We also discuss the benefits of no-fault divorce laws, which have been proven to reduce female suicides and domestic violence. The evidence makes a compelling case for seeing divorce not as a failure but as a path to empowerment and healthier, more authentic relationships.

Tune in next week for the second installment of this hope-filled conversation. 

Resources 

• The high mortality of a low divorce rate: Divorce Laws and Family Violence 
• Flying Free Sisterhood: https://www.instagram.com/flyingfreesisterhood?igsh=MXZmMG95NXUzejV3Yw==
• To Good to Leave, To Bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum (Read an excerpt)     
• Top 10 Questions to Ask Before Hiring a Divorce Attorney 
• Divorce Headquarters 
• The Divorce Survival Guide Podcast
• Who Suffers the Most Financially in a Divorce? 
• Financial Mistakes Women Make During Divorce 
• How To Write A BIFF Response®
• DomesticShelters.org
• National Domestic Violence Hotline
• Phone: 1.800.799.SAFE (7233)
• Text: Text “Start” to 88788

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.

Speaker 2: 0:16

We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we've questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.

Speaker 1: 0:26

Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.

Speaker 2: 0:40

We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.

Speaker 1: 0:45

So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond.

Speaker 2: 1:09

This is Naomi and this is Rebecca, so today we're going to be talking about a little bit more of a serious subject, but before we get there, I am really curious. What's been happening in your world?

Speaker 1: 1:23

Naomi. Well, last week I mentioned that I was getting a new stove and I got that yesterday, and so we used the air fryer function last night. Very exciting, because I, you know, for the last several years I've been telling myself I don't need one, right and and yeah. So we were all kind of ridiculously excited about trying that out. So just trying to beat the heat and enjoy the chaos of summer as best we can.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Yeah, fun. New toys like that in the kitchen are always fun, aren't they? Oh, oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1: 1:59

Yes, so much fun. It just inspired me to wash down my cupboards, it inspired me to wash down my walls, it inspired me to, you know, and now that it's here, now it's inspiring me to make all kinds of fun recipes. So, because for the last week I've been using a camp stove. So that was that was fun. It was like a you know propane camp stove sitting on top of my stove.

Speaker 2: 2:26

Yeah, so yeah, it's just motivation. This would be motivation, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:31

It's great. I might even bake bread again. So we'll see. Look at you, I'm impressed. How about you? What's going on in your world?

Speaker 2: 2:41

So this weekend we're going to my son has a soccer tournament in Indiana, so we are going to be heading out there for the weekend and I'm going to spend time with my friend, judy, which we're excited about. Well, actually, long story short, we're going to spend more time with her husband than Judy actually, but anyway, doesn't matter, they're hosting us. It's all wonderful, but yeah, it's kind of funny. Usually by the time the soccer season is over with, I'm like done, like it needs to end, but it's kind of exciting getting into it and it's always fun to see your kid out there playing and doing stuff that you know. Isn't it crazy how you just think whatever your kid does is kind of amazing.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Right, right. And the thing that used to seem so boring, or when I think of what parents with kids in sports put into it, right, Like I go oh my goodness, I can't imagine having to do all that travel and all those hours spent on the sidelines. But yeah, when your kid's out there, suddenly it's way, way, way more interesting.

Speaker 2: 3:52

And you have, and I still have no idea after all these years. Well, I shouldn't say no idea. I have a fuzzy idea that doesn't really make sense what offsides are. Or like something will happen and everyone's up and like all excited or all mad about it and I'm like sitting there, what happened? I don't know which side I should be on here, but then your kid does something and it's like yeah, so yeah, it's exciting, it's awesome, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: 4:20

And when you are able to socialize or get to see friends at the same time, that's great. That's great, awesome. How far along is he in his season?

Speaker 2: 4:32

This is the first like this would be kind of preseason.

Speaker 1: 4:37

Oh, okay, okay. So like kind of this is how I'm out of it.

Speaker 2: 4:41

No, that's okay. Teams kind of practice against each other, sort of before the season starts. So they don't go into the season cold Right, okay.

Speaker 2: 4:51

Okay, so they put on these tournaments. That kind of gets them warmed up. Yeah, yeah, get them ready. Okay, okay, cool yeah. And some of the kids, some of the kids will have done variations of club soccer over the winter and most schools have practices like twice a week or whatever, and it varies from school to school, sure, but it kind of gives the kids a chance to play together and see how they function as a team before they get into actual official games. Right, right, awesome, well, that's great.

Speaker 2: 5:31

Well, I hope that goes well. Yeah, thank you, we're excited.

Speaker 2: 5:34

So back to the subject for today and I know you've heard me this idea, but I keep running into- women who find themselves in marriages and they feel stuck, whether he is having an affair, whether he's abusive, whether he's emotionally unattentive or unaware, whether they feel like they're single parenting and are constantly trying to figure out ways to get engagement. I have friends who have gay partners and yet they feel stuck. It's like what am I going to do? How am I going to get out of this? How am I going to get out of this? Should I get out of this?

Speaker 2: 6:31

Oftentimes, I find myself most sad about the fact that women feel stuck because at the end of the day, they have few good options. Oftentimes they don't have an education or a means to support themselves. Oftentimes their family won't support them. Most times their church won't support them. Most times their church won't support them. And it's really difficult because many times I see the husband kind of cleaning up his act enough to garnish even more support from the church and eventually, oftentimes not always, but oftentimes it almost gives him street cred. And here the woman is, and in this process I was like hey, naomi, we should talk about your divorce. And so, folks, here we are Now.

Speaker 2: 7:18

Before I think we go any further, though, I think it's important to make it very clear. I think oftentimes these discussions lean into either having a poster child for staying or a poster child for going, and that is not the point here. The point is it's important that we have options and that we can make decisions that are best for us, that are best for our family. I think so often we get so wrapped up in particular issues that we forget to be concerned about the people within those issues. So we tend to hold marriage as far more important than the people within the marriage, and it's difficult. I'm always kind of surprised how people don't seek out counseling until, I don't know, the spouse has an affair and then, oh, let's go into marriage counseling. You have two broken people who haven't done their own work and now you throw them into marriage counseling. What are the expectations here? You can't have a strong marriage if you have two broken people.

Speaker 2: 8:32

Traumatized, maybe even traumatized Exactly exactly, and I would love to see more conversations about normalizing both parties doing their own work, not to save the marriage but to save themselves, and kind of see where that goes. I think you would have far stronger relationships, far stronger kids, and it doesn't give you this feeling of I'm here because I have no other place to go.

Speaker 1: 9:07

Something you said there about. You know, either taking the narrative that it must be this way or the position must be this way. You know this other. For some kind of well, I have been a self-help junkie. I felt that all the books on relationships that I found kind of fell into one or two categories. One was all about self-sacrifice for the relationship, sacrifice for the relationship, and then the other was all about finding your own individual path, your own individual independence, and what I was wanting was to find something that was focused on keeping your individual integrity, being true to yourself, and doing that in the context of a partnership, and that kind of message I feel is hard to find because it's nuanced and complicated. I think Esther Perel is one who does a good job. I think maybe in recent years there have been more voices that are addressing this, but or maybe I just, you know wasn't finding them back in the day.

Speaker 2: 10:34

But well come on. That narrative is hard to find in the Christian world.

Speaker 1: 10:39

Oh, definitely in the Christian world. I still don't know where that is in the Christian world. In the Christian world, I still don't know where that is in the Christian world. I mean, I stopped looking because there was one message that I was getting at that point that I found, and I found even in more secular settings there's this sense that the virtuous position in a troubled relationship is to hang in there and make the marriage work at all costs. Especially for the female Right right, I mean it's the female who's reading the books.

Speaker 2: 11:13

typically it's the female who is trying. It's the female who is most invested in making things better, because she's dying.

Speaker 1: 11:25

Right, she's the one on Facebook groups saying how can I make this work better? How can I right? She's the one talking to friends trying to figure things out right, and he is just kind of twiddling his thumbs and doing whatever comes to him in the moment and I think to be fair, and I agree with you and that's been a frustration of mine too.

Speaker 2: 11:51

But to be fair, our system has set it up so that largely and again, not always, but typically the man is pretty comfortable. So why would the man want something to change he's comfortable? So why would the man want something to change he's comfortable?

Speaker 1: 12:06

Absolutely, absolutely. Because traditional marriage is set up in a way where he's got someone who is taking care of all the routine grunt work and who does it during the day, when he's gone at work, and during the evening and the night. And also with reference to that fantastic meme you just posted this morning. It's a picture of Michael Scott from the Office and next to a picture of Dwight Schrute from the Office. And what does it say?

Speaker 2: 12:44

The point is, dwight was always assistant and he made a big deal about being assistant to Michael Scott, right, and who was the manager Right? So he was assistant to the manager. And so this meme says with Michael Scott it says men, co-heir with Christ, and then with Dwight it says women assistant to the co-heir with Christ.

Speaker 1: 13:16

And the dynamic in the show is that Dwight is always gunning for power and yet he has none. He's gunning for power and yet he has none.

Speaker 2: 13:25

He's gunning for power, but he's also and he's doing it by buddying up with Michael Right, and in some scenes Michael even almost takes advantage of him. Oh, yes.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Yet because Michael knows he's not cool and so he's trying to distance himself and all the time Dwight is trying to kiss up, Dwight is trying to be his best bud and Michael Scott's like yeah, no, no, no, no and trying to diminish any power, any control he has. So, yes, so I think, when men and women, husband and wives roles are framed that way, as heirs and co-heirs co-heir label is such it can be such a consolation prize and it's relatively meaningless because of what you just said that it creates a world where the husband can be very comfortable, very comfortable and very unmotivated to change anything about the status quo.

Speaker 2: 14:37

Right, and I think in conversations about patriarchy, oftentimes it's the females that are having those conversations and I often hear females pointing out that the patriarchy isn't just harming us, it's also harming men, and I agree, yes, it is. But I also cringe because here we are, the women pulling apart how patriarchy is now harming the men, like we're even doing the work for men in this situation, and I would love to invite men to the table and allow them, motivate them to have conversations about how it's harmed you, about how it's harmed you. You do that work and you create some awareness, or you show some awareness on how you're also recognizing the damage the system has done. Because, in all honesty, this narrative of the marriage surviving at all costs is harming both parties. One party might be more miserable than the other, but it's harming both parties. It's not an invitation to either party to be fully attached and in tune and communicating and at the end of the day, that doesn't serve anyone well.

Speaker 1: 16:05

And, at the end of the day, that doesn't serve anyone well, right, it's a little bit like thinking that the way we deal with racism is by people of color critiquing racism, when it's the white folks who made the system and the white folks to change the system that is benefiting them. And those benefits I think for both in the case of like white people in the case of racism, or men in the case of patriarchy those benefits are a little bit like candy.

Speaker 1: 16:36

You know it's in the short term. It's really seductive and tastes good. It's convenient.

Speaker 2: 16:44

Right.

Speaker 1: 16:45

But it kills their soul in other ways. Right, and I think of Bell Hook's statement that the first act of violence that patriarchy commits is not violence against women, it's violence against men by requiring them to cut off parts of themselves, cut off their emotions and squelch them.

Speaker 2: 17:07

Yeah, and to your point which I think is so important even in white circles, who are wanting to be aware and engage with racism, there aren't conversations about the way racism has harmed us and it has it has absolutely harmed us. So yeah, it's very easy when you're comfortable to assume life is good when actually there's harm being done and it could be way better, Right right.

Speaker 1: 17:47

Yeah, so we've been talking about what our observations right and on this kind of in kind of abstract terms.

Speaker 1: 17:56

But I think it's also really important that we look at the evidence. Studies that have been done on the well-being of families found that when unilateral divorce or no-fault divorce was made legal, so what this meant was that if one up to that point it was, both people had to agree to the divorce. So say, a woman wanted to get out of an abusive relationship, if the man wanted to stay in it, she could not get out unless she could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was abusive. Right. But what they found is when those laws changed, no fault divorce or unilateral divorce was possible. Total female suicide declined by around 20%. They also found a large decline in domestic violence for both men and women, and it also led to a decline in females murdered by their partners, and it didn't make an impact on men's homicides. But women's lives are being saved and I want to know to the politicians who are right now gunning to outlaw no-fault divorce I want to know why.

Speaker 2: 19:17

This is a battle Right now. If you look up Project 2025, this is a real issue that they're trying to pass, and this is at the government level. This isn't a state level right, A federal level.

Speaker 1: 19:52

Yeah, federal level, yeah, particular beliefs it's promoted under this very family friendly or family values this kind of rhetoric that can be very appealing to people in conservative communities and the reality is that these policies kill women and I think we need to be really clear about that, about the high cost of a low divorce rate. And another resource that I wanted to recommend and we'll link in the show notes is an Instagram account called Flying Free Sisterhood. Think is helpful about this resource is that it addresses a lot of those conservative arguments about the sanctity of marriage right, or, you know, saving marriage at all costs. So I think in the past, a lot of those messages came from a more secular, feminist perspective and that was often off-putting to people who felt like they had fundamental philosophical differences.

Speaker 2: 21:03

And kind of spiritual obligations maybe.

Speaker 1: 21:06

And a spiritual obligation to stay in a marriage, exactly, and what I appreciate about Flying Free Sisterhood is that they address that and they come at it from that perspective and I think it's really helpful in that way for reframing these issues and talking about what happens when we prioritize the institution of marriage above the well-being of the individuals in it.

Speaker 2: 21:33

Something I've been kind of practicing as a litmus test. When I read things and this Heritage Project or Project 2025 is an example but when I read materials I think okay, so if this was coming from another faith tradition, what would I think?

Speaker 1: 21:53

Right.

Speaker 2: 21:54

And if it was coming from another faith tradition and it would make me nervous or concerned, then it probably isn't okay here either. The government has no business pushing any religious narrative. I don't care. Even if it is my religion, it is still not okay. Religion, it is still not okay. Religious freedom is only religious freedom when everyone has it and no one is obligated to carry my cross or my convictions. And if I need the government to push those values, then I think I'm in trouble, right?

Speaker 1: 22:38

And if these are such essential laws of nature, why do we have to make? Why do they have to be? We do not need any laws to support the law of gravity. The law of gravity does a fine job supporting itself. So when we say some of these things are laws of nature, well, if we have to make laws to enforce them, I think that we can question just how natural they are. But also, I would say too, like you know, it was only a decade or two ago when we were hearing about the threat of Islam and about how Muslims are trying to enforce Sharia law in the United States. Well, guess what? Project 2025 looks a lot like Sharia law. It does. So I think there's a lot to be concerned about there, and I think it makes this conversation really more timely than ever.

Speaker 2: 23:38

Yeah, so, when we were thinking about this podcast, I kind of sat down and tried to imagine myself 15 years ago, 20 years ago, and I tried to imagine what I would want to be asking someone who's going through this process. I think so often it's easy to lean into our assumptions and our judgments and what we have been told, without being curious about the actual process and the actual pain involved in it. And so, before we go any further, I just want to take a second and thank you, naomi, for being vulnerable with us today, because questions like this can feel very exposing and maybe even, I hope, questions that are healing though. I hope questions that are healing though, questions that maybe about you and many of my other friends who've gone through this, and I'm thinking did I ask these curious questions ever? So I'm apologizing to anyone who needs an apology today if you were never asked these kinds of questions. Never ask these kinds of questions. So, for Naomi and all your friends who've navigated this, we see you and we appreciate you and thank you for educating us.

Speaker 1: 25:33

Well, thank you. That is incredibly gracious, incredibly kind of you and I can assure you, if anyone owes an apology, you're the last one. Wow, because here's the thing, like I think it is hard to know. It's hard to know where to even start, and something I'll talk about down the road is like the weird emotional impact a divorce can have on people outside the couple, like people who are tangentially related, and I think that's really important to talk about. So that's real. And I think when we haven't had a lot of firsthand or secondhand exposure to someone going through that experience of divorce, you don't even know, kind of what to say or how to ask. And I know for myself, when I realized that I was facing divorce a few years ago, I so badly wanted to hear from other people who were going through that or were in it. And even when there were, sometimes there were public figures or, like you know, podcasters who were going through things and I just was like and they were so they weren't talking about it either.

Speaker 1: 26:42

They weren't talking, or if they were, it was very guarded, yeah. And I was like I want, I want details, yeah, I want details. How did you even begin to figure out how the children were going to be taken care of and who what was going to happen? How did you even begin to address the logistics? And then, as soon as I was in the middle of it, I realized, oh yeah, this is hard to talk about, because even if you just own your own story, it's a story that is inextricably linked and entwined with somebody else's story, and not just one other person, but also my children. And so I've often found myself in the tension between wanting to offer support to others and also wanting to respect the privacy of those who are involved. So now I understand why the folks that I wished would speak more frankly didn't. I will say that I didn't find a whole kind of accidentally, but I had a friend tell me about her affair, and I remember wanting to respond kindly and compassionately.

Speaker 2: 28:12

But I had all this judgment sitting on my shoulder and, without really thinking about it, I just Googled for a book with a Christian background involving an affair, I believe, or something along that, because I wanted to get into the head of someone who was experiencing it. And so what? I would encourage listeners, before you cast judgment, try to get in the head of someone, whether it means reading a book, whether it means getting into Facebook groups. Try to get into the life of someone who's experiencing it. I joined a LGBTQ Facebook group simply because and I go in and I don't respond, I just listen, I just read because I wanted to understand what they were experiencing. I follow a Muslim leader because I wanted to understand what he was experiencing, and I think when we do that, it allows us to respond a bit more compassionately. And so I would like to just kind of throw that out, because I do think it's important for us to put some work into it too when we're engaging with our friends.

Speaker 1: 29:44

I appreciate that and I agree that there is, for those of us who've grown up in a culture that prided itself on having no divorce, all those narratives, all those judgmental narratives. They are just part of our homes.

Speaker 2: 30:03

I've got some Bible verses ready and they pop up. They're there, it's there and it's like an automatic reflex.

Speaker 1: 30:14

Hats off to those who are doing the indoctrinating, because they yeah, great job, great job.

Speaker 2: 30:20

And you just said that we came from a background where there wasn't divorce. I mean, was there even sin?

Speaker 1: 30:30

Well, let me say this. Let me say this. I mean, I guess one of the observations I made as a young adult, already, when I was leaving, was that this was kind of the thing that set us apart from all other denominations, right Like so, if we wanted to kind of be ecumenical and say, well, you know, sure, other people are going to heaven too, but our church is doing this right, and therefore that puts us at the head of the line with God. But by that time I had lived enough life. I had had enough conversations, honest conversations with others, and I was well aware that having a zero divorce rate or a near zero divorce rate said nothing about happy marriages. It said nothing, and I knew.

Speaker 1: 31:27

I knew that there were. In fact, I would have had a hard time coming up with a model relationship. There were a few, but there were very, very few relationships that I could look at and say, okay, now, that seems like a healthy relationship. There were a few, but there were very, very few relationships that I could look at and say, okay, now, that seems like a healthy relationship where both people are getting their needs met, Both people are enjoying it, both people are benefiting, both people are equally engaged I could come up with precious few, and so to me, in a context like that, a zero divorce rate just means everybody is chained to an unhappy relationship. No, thank you, no, thank you.

Speaker 2: 32:06

All right. So with that to start us off, I was curious. Do you remember the first time you realized it was going to end? Did you have that moment where you're like you realized it was going to end? Did you have that moment where you're like, oh my God, we're not going to salvage this? How did that hit you? How?

Speaker 1: 32:24

was that for you? So my ex came out to me after let's see 13, 14, the timeline's a little fuzzy there years of marriage, and initially we weren't sure what we were going to do about it. We kind of sat with it and you know and this speaking of all the tapes, I mean by this time I had been a feminist for decades, I had been out of the culture for decades, and still that that sense that I need to keep this private, the sense that I need to try to keep this together, was still just my default. Anyway. So now I did get into therapy immediately and that really was such a lifesaver. But then there were months of kind of being in limbo and not sure, are we going to try to make this work, are we or are we not? And to be honest, it was well. Well, I did not expect that disclosure and it did come as a surprise. There had been a lot of kind of low grade challenges, you know, not a lot of fighting, not a lot of drama, not like that, but just kind of low grade. And that disclosure finally helped me make sense of what I was experiencing and Okay, but I still didn't know that it was going to end, Right, but I was.

Speaker 1: 33:52

I was reading a lot, listening to podcasts, all that, all that stuff during that time. And there was this one newsletter that somehow I got on the mailing list of. It was really addressing couples who were kind of in this limbo place and I, I, I the tone of it kind of turned me off because I thought they were kind of judgy and I don't know. I just didn't like it. But then one day one of their newsletters had the subject line of two bad reasons to stay in a marriage and I was like, huh, okay, let's see, let's see what these two bad reasons are. Well, the one was if you stay in a marriage because of social pressure you know it's social expectations, this is what people are going to do and I went oh well, there you go, that's me. And the other one was because it just makes logical sense, like it's going to be more expensive You're going to. You know it's going to be more financially painful to have a divorce. It's just going to make logistically everything more complicated If you have a divorce. It's just going to make logistically everything more complicated if you have a divorce, if you're staying in a marriage. For that, that is also a bad reason, and I went. Those are my two reasons. Those are my two reasons for making this work. It's to fulfill the expectations of the people around me who want this to work, and because just logistically it would be complicated. Sure, I was like those are my reasons. So that, for me, was a real defining moment.

Speaker 1: 35:25

Also, there's a book by Mira Kirshenbaum Too Good to Leave, too Bad to Stay where she talks about different factors that predict happiness in marriage, and so it's really directed at people who are in that limbo indecision. She says. I don't remember where the stat came from. According to some studies, up to 20% of couples are asking themselves do I really want to stay in this or should I leave? Yeah, 20%, one out of five. But I think I was less than five minutes into that book, I think, when I had my answer, and so for me it wasn't one blinding flash moment. It was a long process, but those were some important moments on the way.

Speaker 2: 36:06

Yeah, and more gradual Right, which allowed you to kind of process it at your own speed.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Yeah, right, right, but those were key moments turning Sure, sure.

Speaker 2: 36:18

So how did you work through the whole idea that maybe it wasn't your fault or that somehow you had the obligation to hold it together? I mean, let's be fair, it's always the wife's fault.

Speaker 1: 36:37

Oh my goodness. Well, like I mentioned a moment ago, even though I had long seen that divorce is a viable option, like, philosophically, I had been very clear on it that the no divorce option is inhumane and I just did not agree with it. And yet that programming, that programming is so strong, the programming to make it work at all costs, to twist yourself in a pretzel to light yourself on fire so others don't get a chill, that message that leaving would be selfish if I was doing it because of my needs, is, if I was doing it because I was unhappy, then leaving is going to be selfish. And and that, and the reality is it was going to further alienate me from my family, because I knew my family would not support, I mean, unless I was dealing with physical abuse. Short of that, my intentions were going to be questioned. And so I think for me, for so many years I had thought well, I didn't even think. I know that I was responsible for making matter, which is why I was reading all the self help books. And so you know, after all those years, when he came out to me, I finally had an explanation for why I had felt emotionally disconnected for so many years, and so I think up until that point I was feeling it was on me. I mean, I wanted to be in a happy marriage. Who doesn't right? And so I wanted emotional connection, I wanted all that. But at that point then I realized, oh, I'm dealing with a situation I can't change. Ultimately, it became clear that neither of us were going to find the kind of relationship either of us wanted in that relationship and in that marriage. But here's the thing I want to say I mean, I feel that next to physical abuse, probably next on the list of allowable reasons for divorce, would be my situation. That's true, yeah, and I just want to put in a disclaimer that I think divorce was exactly what we needed to do, even if that were not a factor, even if sexual orientation were not a factor. And if I were talking to myself, I were talking to another person in this situation who was dealing with this, aside from the sexual orientation, if they were dealing with the sense of emotional disconnection that I was feeling, that we were feeling it wasn't just me. Here's the mindset change I had to make.

Speaker 1: 39:21

For so long I felt like I was taking the virtuous route by staying committed, and I finally got to a point where I realized I'm not doing anyone a favor by keeping them in an unsatisfying relationship and that setting someone free to go find a more emotionally satisfying relationship is doing them a favor. I mean, obviously there's way more. It gets way more complicated than that. Sure, but shifting it to oh, instead of me saying I'm rejecting you because you're not good enough for me, right, you know? Instead of saying that, it's like saying, ah, look, you know what? Neither of us, neither of us are getting our needs met here. Why don't we amicably go find what we want and when we assume that divorce is always nasty and ugly and everything? I think that often could be prevented if people felt like they had the permission to say let's just go our separate ways. But because of the way we talk about it, you have to make the other person a villain before you feel justified to end the relationship, and that is where so much of the animosity comes in.

Speaker 2: 40:40

I think that is an incredible point, and the other side of it is somewhere along the line. I observe that we have to in religion. We often take all the emotion out of it in order to survive. We have to disconnect emotionally, we have to disconnect from ourselves, and I think we're often asking people in marriages to do that too. Absolutely, at some point you disconnect emotionally and we call it normal.

Speaker 1: 41:13

Right right.

Speaker 2: 41:13

Yeah, we call it self-sacrifice. Yeah, we call it self-sacrifice, right, right.

Speaker 1: 41:20

A servant's heart. Oh gosh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 41:24

So what is something you wish you could have told yourself then?

Speaker 1: 41:30

Well, you know, in ancient Greek dramas they had a chorus and you would have a scene and the chorus would kind of speak the everyman perspective, the societally expected perspective, right, and would kind of offer commentary on whatever the scene was right. And I think we all have that Greek chorus in our minds. The conversations that we know, that we have heard about others that we know will now be said about us.

Speaker 2: 42:08

Our Greek chorus may just be wearing suspenders and cape, dresses and coverings maybe.

Speaker 1: 42:13

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And so when I was in that place of indecision, in that limbo, and you know, and I kept hearing the Greek chorus because my nervous system is trying to keep me safe, and so the nervous system focuses on the threats, the perceived threats to the nervous system. But then at a certain point I started thinking about the people whose opinion I actually cared about, like the people whose judgment I trusted, the people who I personally had confidence in, and I could just go down the list and I went. No, they all would tell me to move on. The people whose opinion I care about, the people who I really respect and admire and look up to. I had no doubt about what they would say and for me that was a very clarifying moment.

Speaker 1: 43:06

So I think one way to separate the Greek chorus I think we often mistake the Greek chorus for a conscience. That's how it's supposed to work. I mean that's not a mistake. I mean that is but pausing and saying but is the Greek chorus? Does the Greek chorus align with my values? Do I actually agree with the Greek chorus in what is important in life and what matters in a relationship? Once I became really clear no, the voices who I really care about, would support me in this. And, moving on, it made it much, much easier to see the Greek chorus for what it was and not conflate it, not confuse it with my conscience.

Speaker 2: 43:52

It's a little bit like Brene Brown talks about. You know this narrative that we just don't care what people think. Yeah, you do. Everyone cares at some level what people think, and maybe the magic is in deciding who gets to care. Like who in your life are you going to give that power to? Exactly? And I think, when I lean into that, it makes my decisions much more thought through and less reactive.

Speaker 1: 44:26

Yes, this is Naomi popping in from the future. Our conversation ran a little long so we decided to split it into two episodes. So be sure to subscribe to our podcast feed and keep an eye out for the second installment of this conversation when it drops next week. Talk to you soon.

Speaker 2: 45:11

Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.

Speaker 1: 45:21

What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at Uncoveredbeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.

Speaker 2: 45:40

If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode.

Speaker 1: 46:00

Until next time, stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.