Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
38. Book Review: Tia Levings' A Well-Trained Wife...or Widget? (Part 2)
Ever wondered what it's like to break free from a high-control environment? Join us as we celebrate Tia Leving's incredible achievement—her book "A Well-Trained Wife" has skyrocketed to the New York Times bestseller list.
We share stories from our own past about compassionate bystanders who made a big difference and offer practical suggestions for ways to meaningfully support those in a major life transition or in a crisis situation.
We also talk about the complex emotions of loss and new beginnings when cherished dreams crumble into dust. We reflect on the inevitable grief of unmet expectations and the magic of learning to hold mystery, uncertainty, and two competing truths at once.
Finally, we touch on the unexpected influence of evangelical fundamentalism and Calvinism on contemporary Anabaptist communities, scratching our heads at the seeming contradictions and unlikely resonances between these religious traditions given their vociferous theological differences in past centuries.
Show Notes:
A Well-Trained Wife by Tia Levings
Ep. 37 - Part 1 of our discussion about A Well-Trained Wife
Rebecca's Post: Stepping off the Tightrope: A Journey of Faith, Struggle, and Redemption
Naomi’s Post: Unveiling the Unseen: Navigating Obstacles and Opportunities on the Way to College
Jana Duggar…A Mennonite? Christian Nationalism among the Evangelicalized Mennonites by Rebekah Mui
Straight White American Jesus podcast by Brad Onishi and Dan Miller
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This is Rebecca and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 1:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path.
Speaker 1:Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers. We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 2:So, whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi and this is Rebecca, so today we're continuing the conversation about Tia Leving's book A Well-Trained Wife, very excited to see it hit the New York Times bestseller list. Not at all a surprise, but very exciting nonetheless.
Speaker 1:I am so proud of her. I just think it is fabulous that she is getting this type of attention and this type of recognition.
Speaker 2:Right and I think the timing is so important and I think her book has a message that so many people in the mainstream need to hear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that we forget how many people haven't made connections about some of the things she's talking about, and I'm glad the message is getting out there, right, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:But before we get back to all of that, first a warm welcome to all the new folks around here. We love seeing your responses and we're just so glad you're here and hope to hear more from you. We don't want this to just be a one-way conversation, with us talking at you, but we want to hear back from you, so we look forward to getting to know you as well.
Speaker 1:So I'll let you in on a little secret. The truth is, naomi and I are not the smartest people involved here. Conversations you all bring up and the insights you have absolutely energize us but also teach us new thoughts and new angles of looking at it, and our podcast is absolutely made better because of you.
Speaker 2:So, so true, Absolutely. Now, if someone is new here and wondering who are we, why do we have a podcast? Well, first of all, who doesn't have a podcast these days?
Speaker 1:But we wanted to be as cool as everybody else.
Speaker 2:But the other reason is something that we go into in some recent posts that each of us wrote for Saloma Furlong's blog, and we'll link those in the show notes, and these were written versions of the talks that we gave at the symposium the Amish Scholar Symposium that was held earlier this summer. So if you're curious, check out those links and they'll tell you a little bit about our background, where we grew up and how we came to be doing the podcast.
Speaker 1:So in the last episode we talked about the power of outsiders for breaking the spell that we often find in high control groups. Outsiders absolutely affected the way Tia Lovings was able to make changes and I think for many of us who left, we would say that that was true. But outsiders also play a huge role in helping people rebuild afterwards and I think oftentimes these outsiders might be even unaware of what they're doing and in the ways that they're helping, but it's simply people who are being kind Right.
Speaker 2:I think this is even more likely to be the case since the book is getting the wide circulation that it is, so I hope that translates to our listeners as well, because this is relevant for people from all walks of life, not just from a high control group Right.
Speaker 2:What I was thinking about in relation to this was the personal experience that I mentioned in our last episode which, by the way, if you haven't heard that, everything we're going to say here is going to make a lot more sense if you go back and listen to that first. But in that episode I mentioned when I left a high control group, as in my early 20s and I said that after we had figured some things out and seen a different perspective that we were out in a few days. The reason we were able to be out in a few days was because of one of these compassionate bystanders. I had a colleague at work. She was just a few years older than me. She had an SUV, so she let me switch cars with her one night so that I could take her SUV home, so we could pack up our things and move. She also let us come stay my friend and I come stay at her house for about a week or so until we were able to find our own place. She was just the sweetest, kindest person and I am forever grateful to her for the role that she played in that. Now, it's really not relevant to the story, except that it does kind of connect to the book we're talking about here.
Speaker 2:So Tandy, this friend, was a member at a huge Southern Baptist church so probably a lot like the one that Tia Leving's family went to Council Road Baptist Church in Bethany, oklahoma if anybody from Oklahoma City area is listening and she invited me to come to church with her and I went once and I was in such a tender place that kind of everything was triggering for me at that point. I worked with a number of people from this church and everybody I knew from that church was just the nicest, kindest, friendliest person. But then in going to church I just like everything that was coming over the pulpit felt like a commercial, felt like a here's why you need to join this church, because we're so awesome and I'm sure they're awesome, like that's, you know. But where I was I was open for people to hang out with. I didn't want to join a Baptist church, I didn't really want to join any church, but I wanted people to hang out with and I think a lot of us could identify with this when you've grown up in a church setting where that's the primary social context that you know, that's where you know that's how, that's where you know how to socialize.
Speaker 2:I had someone say to me well, why don't you go out to a bar to make friends? I'm like I don't know what to do in a bar. So that was kind of what I went to, because that's what I knew and at the same time it was really triggering. So I never went back, but it had nothing to do with my friend, who was just so lovely and I think another way this connects. There were others that I met during that time, that other people put me in touch with, who were people about my age, who were involved in youth groups. That was also a Baptist youth group, a lot of Baptist churches. In fact, as a friend says, every church in Oklahoma is Southern Baptist, regardless of what the sign out front says. That's funny. So that's funny and and that's pretty true.
Speaker 1:So and in Holmes County every church is Amish Mennonite. I don't know regardless what the sign says. It's kind of true. It's kind of true.
Speaker 2:Yeah so but and I remember in that case going to Bible studies or youth group events and I very quickly realized oh, I don't want to be recruited to somebody's program, I just need friends. And I found it a lot harder to find friends than to find somebody recruiting for a program. I don't think my experience is probably very unique in that way and I think that's something that could be helpful for onlookers caring onlookers, compassionate onlookers to know that people aren't looking to be a project, they want a friend.
Speaker 1:You know I think that's so important and, on that note, a project. They want a friend. You know I think that's so important and, on that note, for many years I was part of a church who forever talked about this notion of you invest so you invest in relationships, you invest into your neighborhood so that you can invite. So the slogan they always said was invest to invite. And I want to push back on that notion because when you do that, you're forever making a project out of a person and for people who have been in high demand religion, they absolutely know the minute that they become a project. And there's a huge difference between having a friendship and having a project. And I'm guilty of this. I have made people projects and I am so sorry.
Speaker 2:I am so sorry, if I ever did that to you.
Speaker 1:I am so sorry because I know I did it to people. And this is me saying I am so sorry because it is hurtful, it is damaging, but I think at some level this is something really easy for churches. And we're not projects.
Speaker 2:We're just not projects Because when we're projects, it's kind of a colonializing project, right when it's like okay, we're going to invest in you, We'll show up when you're having a hard time, we'll be friendly to you when we see you out in the neighborhood, we'll make those investments, to use that language. But it's all with an ulterior motive of so. Therefore, I can invite you to church and hopefully you'll become an upstanding member in the church and an active member and our numbers will grow. And so there's this agenda in the background, and I think often the folks in a church who are the most conscious of that are probably the most well-meaning, the kindest, most compassionate people, and it's unfortunate. But even when it's a kind, compassionate, well-meaning person who is looking at someone in need, someone in crisis, as a project, you can feel that and it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I'm slowly learning that one of the hardest things to do is show up and be who I want to be and do what I need to want to do, because that's what I want to have done when I go to bed at night. Yes, end of story. Yes, not so that I can quote show God's love, not so that I can have stars in my crown. Should we talk about how horrible, horrible that notion is? I mean, there's songs about this.
Speaker 2:And how unbiblical it is. If we want to go that direction, yeah, but how about just feeding the hungry?
Speaker 1:because no one should be hungry. How about taking care of the kid? Because every kid should have someone who takes care of them. How about loaning your vehicle? Because everyone should have someone in their life who is a support system. And just doing what I do because that's who I want.
Speaker 2:That's one of the most rewarding things about being involved in your community outside of a church or a formal organization is it frees you to do those things because that's who you want to be and not because you have this ulterior meaning. And I think there's a narrative out there that says if you don't, if you're not a Christian, if you don't have the threat of hell hanging over your head, then you're going to go. You know you're going to go, murder all the people, everybody. You get angry with every little thing. You're going to go out and do all the most horrible things, when the reality is most of us want to be decent people. Most of us can be decent people without the threat of hell hanging over us because we're decent people. Most people.
Speaker 1:Right, and I want to just say one more thing, and I know this because I worked at a mega church. When you invite people to church with you every Sunday and okay, so it's been a few years since I've been there, but I'm assuming this is standard practice for mega churches Newcomers are asked to fill out information cards and one of the questions is who invited you? It feels kind of good when you know your name is going onto that card and it feels kind of good when you get that recognition and all of a sudden, you imagine the office people being like wow, that Rebecca is inviting a lot of people. It's an ego boost. Is that what you're saying? Well, I'm not sure that even it's an ego boost. I think it's validation that you're doing something for the Lord, like it's this, it's this which in and of itself is not a bad thing.
Speaker 2:But now that outreach has become about something other than outreach, the outreach has become about showing what a good person you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And what if I am quote doing something for the Lord without advertising it? What if no one needs to know? And I just want to challenge and push back against that idea. Just want to challenge and push back against that idea. I don't think the church needs to know who invited you. And then I found out that some of the people I was inviting were in desperate need and the church very begrudging and very unhelpful with those.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:So just think about some of this stuff. I'm not saying all churches do this, I'm not saying the agenda is the same with each and every church, but I do think it's things we should watch. And no, I do not believe that you should invest in anyone so that you can invite them anywhere.
Speaker 2:That's not friendship, that's a transaction. Exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah. So we've kind of gone down that rabbit rabbit trail. It's relevant if tangential. So, turning our attention back to the book, the last part of it is about how Tia is rebuilding her life after leaving, and I have heard that her next book is really going to dive deep into the healing process, and so I'm really excited about that. But I think there's a recurring theme here in how a big part of that growth for her, that rebuilding, was about exchanging the certainty that was promised in this very fundamentalist religious context and instead embracing mystery, so going from that immediate comfort of certainty to embracing the uncertainty of mystery. Rebecca, you've got some really good quotes here where she's talking about this process.
Speaker 1:You know, when she was talking about grief, she wrote in the loneliness I realized I grieved the idealized dream and I was like, ah crap. And isn't that the truth of so many things, be it relationships, be it finding out that you are merely a part of a high demand religion that is trying to control your moves? Whatever the situation is, oftentimes I think we're promised this dream that we buy into, that we're like, yeah, that is what I want. And the dream, I think, is what sells us, or the promise of the dream is what sells us. And then realizing that it's not going to happen is a whole other level.
Speaker 2:Isn't this similar to, like the grief when a loved one dies, say a loved one that you've maybe had a difficult relationship with or no relationship with when they pass? It's not so much about grieving a meaningful relationship that's gone. It's about grieving the fact that that relationship never existed and what could have or should have been Right. And I think part of what she's talking about there, too, is realizing that what she was committed to was a mirage. It wasn't that she was grieving the loss of living as a fundamentalist, she was grieving the loss of what she'd been promised.
Speaker 2:And I think one reason that it's really important for onlookers, bystanders to be aware of this is that it's easy to think well, you just got out of a bad situation. You should just be so happy that you're in a better situation now. Aren't you so happy that now you can live like me instead of that weird way? And the reality is no, no, there's a loss of a dream, not just the loss of what was familiar, but the loss of a dream, and I think being aware of the kind of the messiness of that can really help you be a better friend and support during that time.
Speaker 1:And be very careful as an onlooker not to invite them over to your promise of a dream, which I think is what oftentimes happens with this invest and invite note. And I think people leaving are very vulnerable to that type of sell. So we just trade our dreams. It's like okay, so this obviously isn't working, but you're promising over here, it looks familiar, it looks comfortable, and you make the switch only to realize that, oh, it's another mirage. Switch only to realize that, oh, it's another mirage. And I think it's a good reminder for both people who are disillusioned with where they're at and for people who want to quote invest in other people. Be careful about the promise we give.
Speaker 1:She also talks a lot about the trees and the peace they gave her, and I think one of the most wonderful things about nature, if you ignore the insects involved, is that nature doesn't demand anything from you. You can go out to the trees and they just are there. They don't ask that you are quiet, they don't ask that you speak, they don't ask that you stay, they don't ask that you are quiet, they don't ask that you speak, they don't ask that you stay, they don't ask that you leave, they just allow you to be. And, on a personal note, I've always found it fascinating that if you watch trees in a storm, they don't stand there solidly, they bend, they sway, they move, they dance. And I think about that when we want to have this solid foundation and this firm belief and this firm faith, and it's like even nature moves, even nature sways, and I think we're supposed to as well.
Speaker 2:Are you saying that the only thing that is rigid in nature is dead? Damn it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why don't you take like five sentences and just put it into three words? Well, it was my turn.
Speaker 2:It was my turn. Usually you're doing that for me, so it's my turn to do that. No, I couldn't agree more. And not to be a metaphor to death. But I also love the metaphor of balance, like when you're balancing on one foot, like yoga is tree pose, as you balance on one foot, when you do that, you realize, oh, you are not holding still, like the muscles and the bones in your feet are moving right To adjust to keep you upright. And like that movement, however subtle, is part of what keeps you balanced and keeps you upright and that's what keeps the trees.
Speaker 1:That flexibility is what keeps trees living Absolutely fascinating that one of her first relationships was with CG, who really did allow for mystery and was very drawn to nature as well. And I think it's so fascinating because that's something, as I deconstructed, that was something that I really needed a lot of space for as well, and the people in my life who lacked space for that were some of the first relationships that I realized weren't going to last. And I think, as you deconstruct and as you realize that so much of what you were building your life after was possibly a mirage or false promises or whatever it was, I think at some level you have to really really dig into that mystery, into the curiosity of life, and it's difficult to realize that maybe life isn't quite as cut and dried as we're hoping it would be, or even we were told it would be Right.
Speaker 2:She also talks about extending this understanding to her children. She says, as my children explored and expressed, the contrast of how I'd shrunken, my world in adolescence intensified. It turned out teenagers don't go right or wrong. As they'd been taught over the pulpit right Sometimes they went left up out over under into Life was so much bigger than what I was taught at church.
Speaker 2:I can so identify with this because I see similar patterns in my own children and I'm in a parenting group, for I'm in lots of parenting groups, I think it was one that had to do with neurodivergence and behavior issues and that kind of thing, and there were a lot of posts from folks who are really in the trenches with young kids and it reminded me that six years ago my son was six and I was going what is this kid going to be like when he's 12? And I was really, really fearful and I was thinking about well, now he is 12. And how, how I wish I could go back and give my younger self some reassurance that it's going to be okay. But then as I was, as I was talking about this, I thought about it too that my definition of successful, of a successful relationship or what it means to be doing well, has changed. Like there would have been a time that my kid getting in trouble at school would have reflected really poorly on me as a parent, that it would have indicated that I'm not doing well as a parent.
Speaker 2:Where now, if a kid gets in trouble at school? Well, yeah, kids do immature, ill-advised things and then we work with them and help them clean up, learn how to take accountability and how to clean it up, and I think that's maybe the kind of thing that Tia's talking about here. It's not just about giving kids more latitude to explore, but also redefining what it means to be doing well in life, and I think that's not only taking pressure off the kids, but it also takes pressure off of us.
Speaker 1:I think it also helps me see my past self with a little bit more grace, because I was really young when I started worrying about my sin.
Speaker 1:And if I got something wrong. It wasn't a part of learning and growing, it was I had failed. I had failed God, and it was enough to send you to hell. And it was enough to send me to hell. Yeah, and I think the process of parenting has allowed me to reparent myself in ways I never expected. And I see things happening and I'm like, oh, it's not about sin, it's simply about learning, it's simply about navigating life, it's simply learning about yourself and, of course, we want our kids to do well and not to get into trouble and not want them to flourish Right, right, but it comes down to it being about connection, not control 100%. So the next point brings us back to this idea of maybe the internet isn't as evil as sometimes we're told it is.
Speaker 1:She wrote I didn't realize there was an entire community of others traumatized by the church, and she found herself in online spaces where there were communities of people who were kind of working through and processing some of this religious abuse.
Speaker 1:And I think this is so very important, because when you're in an isolated community, we're taught not to speak up, you're taught to follow the rules, you're taught to understand how important the hierarchy is, and so you kind of toe the line and then, when you get into spaces where it is okay to speak up and you can start sharing your story, it's like, oh wait, there's other people who have experienced the same thing.
Speaker 1:I'm not weird, maybe. Maybe I'm actually kind of normal and somehow, in that, you learn to develop and even trust your voice. And I think this is so important, because it's so easy for us to doubt ourselves and to think we're strange, to think we're weird, and we probably are to a point. But there are other people who identify with your experiences and if you're sensing or feeling something, it is valid and trust your voice, even if you voice it only to yourself or one other person, still trust your voice in that process, because somewhere out there there is an entire community of people who are like yeah, I hear you, I get that, and there's someone waiting to hear your story.
Speaker 2:Just because you don't have that at the moment doesn't mean it's not out there, right? You just haven't found it yet. Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I wonder if that's not maybe where the strength of these isolated communities lies. Yeah, absolutely. Something else Tia talked about as she was healing and working through that whole process was and again I quote what did it mean to hold two opposing truths at the same time? And for me, I found this to be so important in rebuilding and honestly, I think so much of life is this it's holding two opposing truths. Am I sad my kids went back to college? Yeah, but am I happy I don't have to cook so much?
Speaker 2:Yes, they're both so true.
Speaker 1:Right, and so much of life is. We can be absolutely grateful for something, but we can also be sad about the same thing. I can be so dang grateful that I am in college, but I can also be so sad that I'm as old as I am and finally experiencing it. Both truths are valid. Experiencing it, both truths are valid. And I think this idea of focusing only on the positive without acknowledging the grief or the sadness doesn't serve us well. And by holding those opposing truths, I think it gives us space to have grace and love for former selves, which I think is really difficult to do, especially when you're in that grieving stage Because you think of all the things you could have done differently, you should have done differently, the red flags you absolutely blew through because you didn't know. And again, in that allows us to have love, but it allows us to grieve and I think in that you learn to hold those opposing truths.
Speaker 2:But I also think it allows us to be kinder humans, because it's easy, in a rigid belief system, to assume there's only one truth, to say there's only one thing that's true Either that action was right or it was wrong. In this scenario, one of these people is right and the other person is wrong. And what if we can expand our minds enough to hold two of those opposing truths? Someone was doing the best they could and also their actions were hurtful. I was hurt by something doesn't mean that the other person was necessarily acting on behalf of the devil. It could be they were misguided. It could be a million and one different things.
Speaker 2:Yes, and in that way it's or ourselves, yes, when you talk about flying through those red flags, realizing, like you know what, instead of going, was that relationship a mistake or not? Like either it was the right thing or it was a mistake, one or the other. It's so limiting. Maybe there were red flags, but maybe there were valuable things that came through that. And I've said this before. But I think it's so easy for us to look back at past mistakes and imagine that if we had taken the other route, it would have been perfect. And the reality is we might have just ended up with a bigger mess if we'd gone a different direction.
Speaker 2:Holding those two opposing truths is so powerful and life affirming Right, yeah, yeah. And it allows us to live with that mystery and that uncertainty yeah, absolutely yeah. And it allows us to live with that mystery and that uncertainty yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, in thinking about the role that bystanders, compassionate onlookers, can play in somebody's transition out of a high demand group, we've got a list of a few things here that kind of tie in with what we've been talking about, but maybe make them a little bit more concrete and specific. The first one here is one that Rebecca touched on a little bit ago about the importance of respecting the dignity, the privacy and the autonomy of the person. Even if this is a person who has come out of a group where maybe they've not been able to experience all the developmental, the typical developmental stages of other people their same age in the mainstream, they are still intelligent human beings for whom dignity, privacy and autonomy are just as important as someone who hasn't had those experiences, I think this is so incredibly important.
Speaker 1:I've had the opportunity and the fortune of working with some immigrants and I think it is so easy when someone comes from another culture to think they're dumb or they don't understand think they're dumb, or they don't understand, or it be.
Speaker 2:I think we as Americans tend to see someone with an accent as being less intelligent, when in most of the rest of the world, having an accent means you can speak multiple languages, and that's something to admire that you're smart. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, but in the US it's seen as like oh, you're not smart enough to speak good English, which is all it does is make us look inbred.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I have seen people witness to someone from a complete different culture and world and they've never asked about their faith practices.
Speaker 2:They just make assumptions.
Speaker 1:Right. But then I also realized how much those of us who grew up in a high demand religion are kind of like an immigrant, like a lot of those things they're learning, are a lot the same. All of a sudden, one day I saw myself in the immigrant.
Speaker 2:That's solidarity, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, and I think that's where real connection is, when we can see where our common interests lie and where we can stand together.
Speaker 1:And how much we're the same. Yes, yes. In fact, they're probably braver than I am, Not probably they are. They're fighting things I never even thought about.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And to go back to what we were saying just a second ago, isn't it about holding what is similar and what is dissimilar at the same time we're not hung up on it being one or the other but that we can integrate both of those and still respect their dignity and autonomy as a human? I think another point related to this maybe growing out of this is recognizing that healing isn't linear and that leaving doesn't mean a person instantly becomes your regulation white bread, middle class American, and I think this is again. This is kind of one of the pitfalls that come from having from growing up in a country that is so large that many of us have especially grew up in the Midwest or away from the coast, really have grown up in places where we're used to people who look pretty much like ourselves, and so we have a hard time imagining a normal that doesn't look like our lived reality.
Speaker 2:And I've run into this as well, and I've often seen it not so much in person but more in online spaces, and I'm talking here kind of the fundy, snark world where maybe somebody is moving out of a very restrictive way of living and the expectations of the onlookers seem to be that now they flipped a switch and now they're going to see everything from the perspective of someone who grew up with the standard white bread, middle class American experience and so realizing that again holding two things at once, two truths that when we leave a situation, when we go through a major transition or a major crisis, we still carry the impact of what happened to us before that crisis and that will always still be part of who we are.
Speaker 2:And also we can integrate, we can learn new things, but it's going to be messy, it's going to be nonlinear and it might not happen at the same rate that an onlooker would expect it to the point. Here is a plea to be patient with the messiness of it and if it doesn't make sense to you, that's okay, because it probably totally doesn't make sense to the person going through it either.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think another important part to remember here is it's not going to be linear, also in the sense of emotions. I remember talking to a therapist and I was angry. I was like so, and I was angry. I was like so freaking angry.
Speaker 1:And he looked at me and he's like isn't it exhausting being that angry? And I was like, screw you, that is the most unhelpful thing I have ever heard. I remember just sitting there and being like, really that's all you got. Remember just sitting there and being like really that's all you got. That's all you got. What would have been helpful is if he would have asked some questions, because eventually I figured out that underneath all that anger was a motherlode of grief. But I also realized that in that motion, that anger was literally what was getting me out of bed. That anger was literally what was getting me out the door. So don't be too shocked when there is anger, because there will be anger. I think what people aren't actually prepared for then is the grief that comes behind that, because the grief is much more difficult.
Speaker 2:It is much more gutting.
Speaker 1:It's much more gutting. The same people who are shocked or Disapproving Disapproving of the anger are not willing to sit through grief either. And I'm telling you, grief is going to happen and the grief.
Speaker 2:I wasn't prepared for the grief and I wish that therapist would have prepared me for that for those onlookers, those bystanders, to be aware that those material needs might be there too and it can vary so much, because sometimes being in a high control group is very much related to your income and where you live and that kind of thing, and then for others not so much and so that's not an issue.
Speaker 2:But I think being aware that it could be is really important. And then also connecting them to community resources, connecting them to your social or professional networks, or at least helping them get connected to relevant social and professional networks, is so huge. One of those major characteristics of being in a high demand group is that you aren't connected to community resources. The social and professional networks you had before may be severed. For example, when I left the Amish Mennonite tradition and among other things, trying to get a job and all that, it never occurred to me. That there might be an organization out there that has donated clothing, donated professional clothing for women in my situation Never occurred to me, and I think there is one in Oklahoma City somewhere. I don't know if it was there at the time.
Speaker 2:Okay. So yeah, they're out there for sure. I mean, I worked at one, just not in Oklahoma City. Just the thing of making friends, the thing of developing those professional networks, helping make those connections, is so incredibly valuable. I just can't state it enough, like, maybe it's as simple as an introduction, maybe it's as simple as inviting them to a backyard barbecue where they're going to be other people there that they might connect with. I guess another way of what I'm saying is, if you don't have the bandwidth to take them under your wing and make them your bonus kid which.
Speaker 2:I think most of us are there helping, offering to make those social and professional network connections can be such a relatively small thing for you, that is a huge thing for them.
Speaker 1:So let me try putting it this way I have been to funerals where literally the only people that were at the funeral were people from the high controlled, yes. So let's think about it this way when you are in a high demand religious group, high-demand religious group, typically that is your world, that is your education, that is your employment, that is often what you know. I have been to funerals of someone who was inside the group and lived a long life, but the only person at that funeral were people from their church group. So it is possible to live in a high demand religion with almost no outside connections not outside or without meaningful outside connections without meaningful outside connections.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, so if a person can live a long life and be 80 when they pass, and a long meaningful life. We're not talking about someone who's a recluse, but someone who yeah who's active, but within the confines of their group. Yeah, within the confines of their group.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so if someone can live a long, meaningful life, but the only people who show up at their funeral is people from within that group, imagine how difficult it is when you have a 20-year-old who decides to leave the group Right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. That's such a great way to put it.
Speaker 1:So keep that in mind. Keep that in mind Absolutely. That's such a networks to find friendships. And I think that that might be part of the reason we so easily go from one high controlled group to the next, because it holds everything we're looking for.
Speaker 2:And you know, in our experience, we had social security numbers, we had social security numbers, we had driver's license. Trying to do this without those things which there are plenty who do Exactly.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, that's not only difficult but then expensive, and involves attorney's fees and one Emotional energy that many just do not have.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, exactly. And yet to move forward they have to. No wonder, no wonder returning to a high control group seems like the most logical thing to do. And that leads us to the last point on my list encourage and facilitate rest.
Speaker 2:So one of my major annoyances is all the directives to busy mothers to take time for self care. It makes me want to punch somebody in the face because I'm like, well, you come take care of my responsibilities then, so I can go self care. Because there's often this kind of a judgment like, well, you're not making time for self care, you've just got to make time for yourself. And it's like judgment like well, you're not making time for self-care, you've just got to make time for yourself. And it's like, well, then you come make dinner. Anyway, that's my personal baggage, okay.
Speaker 2:So what I'm saying is, if we have someone coming through a really difficult crisis or transition like this and they might be reestablishing almost every part of their life, from where they live to where they work and all that and their friend circles, all that, that does not leave much time for rest, and rest is exactly what you need at a time like that. You need relaxation, your body needs a place of safety to rest and repair. So if you, as an onlooker, if there's anything you can do to facilitate it, please do, whether it's saying hey, come swim in my pool whenever you need an afternoon, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1:Join us for Christmas dinner, join us for a barbecue, join us for back to school shopping.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, or we're just having pizza tonight. But if you want to come on over, something that takes some of the weight that's hanging on them off, even if it's for a few minutes, can be so meaningful. And I think it's easy to overlook, because when you are rebuilding man, that takes additional energy. But when you have come through a crisis, that takes additional energy. But when you have come through a crisis, you're already running on empty, probably, and then trying to do that, and I think that's one of the reasons why these chronic conditions are so common for people in this situation, because it's the nervous system, the body's saying enough, enough, enough. Our world is not set up for people to have rest and times like these, our society is not set up for that, and that's a whole other issue. So to what extent we can step in there is huge.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you talked about the need for rest and how exhausting it is, because I think that gets so overlooked and I think sometimes the expectations we place on people when they're making those changes are unrealistic and I am so glad you talked to that.
Speaker 2:So, coming up next we're going to talk about our takeaways, kind of our reactions to when we were reading interactions to when we were reading Right, I was struck by how much I could identify with her inner life, even though our day-to-day experiences were so different, our life trajectories were so different, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that either. I think that's really one of the strengths of the book is that she is putting words to ideas and thoughts and fears that many of us have had and haven't had language for.
Speaker 1:Right, but wasn't it shocking to you she didn't have any Anabaptist background? No, like I kept thinking she could totally have had an Anabaptist background with some of the things she was talking about. And I was so curious about that, Like how is that even possible? And then I started recognizing how so many of the names and influences were actually the same people.
Speaker 2:Are you saying that maybe Anabaptists aren't as unique as we think we are? I worry, so many of the names and the influences she mentions were familiar. I mean, maybe they were more or less influential in our lives, but still those ideas were very present.
Speaker 1:But I was familiar with all the names, like I recognized all the names she mentioned. She had a complete list of people who have quote fallen and I recognized all of them. She mentioned Gary Ezzo, so they're the ones who would have written Babywise. Yeah, josh Harris, I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Bill Gothard, the Duggars, doug Phillips, paige Patterson.
Speaker 2:And then you had other names that you thought of too, that you could add to the list.
Speaker 1:Right, right. I mean we have Hybels, we have John Howard Yoder, who was an Anabaptist, anabaptist, jerry Falwell Jr. I mean the list continues. But even more than that, she was influenced by John Piper, john MacArthur, a lot of these RC Sproul, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. And I was kind of surprised how much the Calvinist faith has influenced the Anabaptists.
Speaker 2:Right, because growing up, my memory is that we were definitely not Calvinist. Oh, we would be horrified to be Proudly not Calvinist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, right, but it's interesting to me here in Holmes County 10 years ago there were a lot of beachy Beninite men especially who were deep into Driscoll and his teachings. I'm sure I mean we even had a group who called themselves the Acts 29 Church, which was totally off of Driscoll. Wow, and it just gives me a lot of pause. It gives me a lot of pause when we have Anabaptists who are absolutely not Calvinists. And then I also have friends who are in the Calvinist church who think the Anabaptists are horrible and I'm like do you guys not see how closely we're related?
Speaker 2:Well, let me ask so, like those folks in, say, holmes County who have this Anabaptist background but are taken by, entranced by Mark Driscoll, what are the chances that it's not so much the Calvinism they're interested in as it is the misogyny they admire? Ouch, I can say that because I don't know them. It's just a question.
Speaker 1:So what I'm going to suggest is this Typically, a lot of these leaders tend to be more uneducated and the Calvinist teaching show up with a lot more scholarly terms and it sounds familiar and I think it's easy to read and feel like you have more education than the people you're leading.
Speaker 2:Because you've got something new to share.
Speaker 1:You have something new, but you have something.
Speaker 2:Something new that you can share with a lot of confidence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because the whole Calvinist thing is hugely black and white. This is it. Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:I think we need to just be really aware, is it that?
Speaker 2:not only I think, in the backgrounds we come from, it's easy to think that the only way to evaluate something is by how well it aligns with the Word of God. Well, of course, the reality is people make the Word of God align with kind of whatever they want right. So the Word of God has with kind of whatever they want right. So the word of God has a lot of things to say. So another way to evaluate ideas is what is their effect? What comes out of? What is the fruit? What is the fruit of Driscoll's teaching, and is that the kind of person we want to be?
Speaker 1:The other thing I couldn't help but notice was in the book. Tia was the one in the relationship who was frustrated. She was the one trying to figure out how to create changes for her family. She was trying to figure out how to be the good wife. She was the one who was searching for therapy. And I had to think about how often we see that pattern.
Speaker 1:Oftentimes it is the female who is the first in therapy, who even assumes that it's her fault and assumes that if she would somehow do the right thing, her family would be healthier, her marriage would be better. And this isn't reflected in the book so much, but I'm going to take it one step further. I often see females who finally get into therapy. They assume that it's their fault, they assume that they need to be making changes and somewhere along the line they figure out oh, there's this thing called boundaries. Somewhere along the line they figure out oh, there's this thing called boundaries. What's that? They learn to trust their voice.
Speaker 1:And oftentimes what happens is, all of a sudden, her partner gets nervous and decides it's time for marriage or couples counseling, when the partner, in fact, has done no work of their own. And let me just say you're allowed to be offended about that if that happens to you, and you're also allowed to say no, I have done some work and I would like to create a space for you to also do your work. And how about if you do some of your work and then we think about couples or marriage therapy? This idea that somehow the female needs to do the emotional labor in the marriage and even in the therapist's office needs to be challenged.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think we've got an upcoming podcast on that. Bare Marriage had some amazing memes that you shared with me and, I think, encourage you.
Speaker 1:If you're feeling any of this, know there's validity there and, yes, this is absolutely something we'll talk about more.
Speaker 2:So it's really interesting to think about how we were raised in Anabaptist groups that I thought cared about the tradition. I mean we would have said that those general conference Mennonites were Mennonite name only. We were the real ones because we were holding the traditional line. But upon studying and learning about what early Anabaptists actually believed and taught, it was a surprise to realize no wait, those things that we think are so important as the traditional Anabaptists were actually not that big a deal to the early Anabaptists. And I'm thinking of things like adult baptism, so baptism on the confession of faith rather than as an infant because of their parents' choice, voluntary church membership, separation, church estate, pacifism, non-resistance, especially as it relates to political affiliation, that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Our friend, rebecca Mui, wrote a Medium post about this whole dynamic. Rebecca was not born and raised Mennonite but came to Anabaptist beliefs as a young adult and she has an impressively nuanced view of the culture and dynamics within it. She's also a PhD student and studies these kinds of things, spends a lot of time thinking about these kinds of things. So we're going to link her post in the show notes and if anyone else is interested in this dichotomy between what it means to be traditional or not and traditional Anabaptist or not. I think you would find her post very interesting.
Speaker 1:So, in short, what passes as Anabaptist theology today, I think, has so much unacknowledged Calvinist and fundamental Baptist influence and you'll see it like in the emphasis on control hierarchy and like force group conformity that are really in direct opposition to historical Anabaptist beliefs. Is it fair to say that the tradition that some of the Anabaptist churches in our past have clung to would be closer to the Amish tradition and less to the actual Anabaptist tradition?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's what I'm saying. I think that's what I'm saying, and there are other ways that could be said, but I think that is what I'm saying, and I think it's. Many who aren't as familiar would assume that the Amish are the originals and everybody else who has moderated has peeled off from them. But actually it's not that way necessarily. So, yes, I think that is exactly what I'm saying. It's complicated and I'm just inviting people into the complication.
Speaker 1:Not that I have anything really clever or insightful to say about it, just that it's a complication that I think is worth exploring insightful to say about it just that it's a complication that I think is worth exploring Right, and I for sure don't mean it as a criticism, because I am quite defensive of my Amish friends and relatives and there are parts of the Anabaptist faith that I find myself really circling around to and embracing. So I don't mean any of this conversation as a criticism, but rather as asking us to be a bit more critical, maybe, about what we allow to influence us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or maybe even aware of what is influencing us, because I think a lot of well. I mean, just think of any sermon that we heard. How many times were sources referenced? How many times are sources not referenced, who knows? And it's not that the rules of plagiarism apply to preaching in the same way they do in scholarly writing, but I think A it's only natural when ideas are woven in and through right, that's only normal. What's interesting is when we think we have this pure belief and maybe, on closer observation, we find out we've been influenced by other voices as well, and I think it just gives us a more accurate understanding of our world. Maybe it gives us a more accurate sense of just how special we are, or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think we like to think we're one in a million or we're God's chosen people or you know whatever, when maybe we're not quite as special as we think we are, and to take it just one step more further. So stick with me here. We'd like to talk about the danger of radical Islam, or Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons and all their wives I mean, we've all heard this but something we don't talk about is the danger of radical Christians, and I think we need to think about that too. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism. It doesn't really matter what faith practice you're talking about, what ideology you're talking about. It's something we need to be aware of, and I'm going to suggest, and maybe even argue, that we should no more want a Christian nation than we would want a Catholic, an Islamic, a Mormon fill in the blank nation, because freedom of religion is not freedom of religion unless it's freedom of religion for everyone involved.
Speaker 2:That's right. Oh, and that is another one of those Core Anabaptist teachings.
Speaker 1:Guess what? Look at me circling around.
Speaker 2:That seems to have been abandoned. Yes, absolutely, Absolutely so. I so agree with this, and I remember the day, a long time ago, sitting in traffic and talking with someone about I think we're talking about different political systems and kind of doing this kind of backing up and saying, well, you know which political systems have the best outcomes and which and it hit me that demands for ideological purity result in tyranny, regardless of what the system is, and I think that's what all these kinds of radical groups have in common, or fundamentalisms have in common it is a rigidity and a demand for ideological purity that becomes tyrannical, and that is the problem. Really good job breaking some of those threads down is Straight White American Jesus podcast. They talk about a lot of current events, they talk about the presence of Christian nationalism and you know kind of some of those streams of thought within it. Both of the podcast hosts have at one time been fundamentalist preachers and now they are no longer so they speak as insiders. They're also academics and they have a very well-informed view on their topic, and they also have a great sense of humor lots of dad jokes For anyone concerned about radical Christianity and the impact it can have on the US Straight White American Jesus is an awesome podcast for thinking about those things.
Speaker 2:So I think, in summing this up, we've spent most of the podcast talking about relevant points for bystanders, for folks who are standing alongside those who are making these difficult transitions. I think for those who have lived in an insular religious environment, I think for those who have lived in an insular religious environment, what the book offers is a way to think about and a way to recognize some of the most pernicious mind games and social traps that keep unhappy, dissatisfied people from making the changes they need to make so that they can live life on their own terms, from making the changes they need to make so that they can live life on their own terms. And so for anyone who feels stuck in a place like that, a place where they feel torn between the demands that are placed on them and who they know themselves to be, I think this book can offer a lot of hope and a lot of ways of imagining how to break free.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think this book is such a prime example of the way that midlife pivots are just never easy and each one has its own unique sets of challenges and rewards, and I so appreciate the way Tia Lovings works us through that process.
Speaker 2:With a sense of humor.
Speaker 1:On top of humor. Yeah Right, she makes us laugh and cry.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, it's awesome. Yeah, in the spirit of talking about midlife pivots, in an upcoming episode we're going to do a deep dive into Rebecca's experiences of starting college after 40 and what that's like. You know what's what your day-to-day experiences have been like. So, for our listeners, if there's something you are curious about the college life and this can be anything from you know how to apply to things related to how do you deal with this. Did you ever run into this kind of situation? Whatever's on your mind, text us a question that you'd like us to talk about with Rebecca, and just know that we want this podcast to be a place where it's safe to ask the kind of questions that Google can answer, and we can promise you you're probably not the only one with that question, and others will be really grateful that you asked it, so please get in touch also in the pipeline.
Speaker 1:We're tackling an excellent question asked by one of our very insightful listeners about this idea of going to college as a creationist and encountering the teachings of evolution in a public setting for maybe the first time. What do you do when you're in a classroom and everyone's talking about evolution and there's no one snickering but you? How, in that, do we stay true to ourselves when we are confronted by new information? Is this something you've experienced? We would be so delighted to hear from you, so send us a text and tell us all about it, and we will see you next time. Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.
