Empowering Betrayed Partners Through Boundary Setting w/ Sheri Keffer

In this episode, Tara McCausland talks with Dr. Sheri Keffer about the importance of setting and holding boundaries in relationships, particularly when dealing with sexual betrayal and addiction. Dr. Keffer shares her personal journey of recovery and emphasizes the need for betrayed partners to have courage and patience with themselves as they practice setting and holding boundaries. 

Questions addressed include:

-What are boundaries and why are they so critical if you’ve been affected by sexual betrayal? How are they different from punishment? 

- What are some signs in my relationships that I need to create boundaries? 

-What are some of the biggest barriers in creating and holding effective boundaries? 

Dr. Sheri provides some specific examples of boundary setting and the benefit of holding boundaries to empower and create safety for betrayed partners. The discussion also covers themes of fear, abuse, the necessity of honesty to heal the relationship, and being brave enough to make tough but necessary decisions.

Find Sheri at www.braveone.com and register for her March 2024  retreat here. 

Transcript

Boundaries w/ Dr. Sheri Keffer

Introduction to Dr. Sherry Keffer

Tara: [00:00:00] Dr. Sherry Keffer is a regular co-host of the nationally syndicated radio talk show, New Life Live, with an audience of more than 2 million people each week. For over 22 years, she's worked as a doctor of marriage and family therapy in Newport Beach, California. Through her own personal story of recovery, Dr. Sherry understands the [00:01:00] trauma symptoms often associated with sexual betrayal and post traumatic stress. As a Certified Partner Trauma Therapist, Supervisor, Certified Sex Addiction Therapist, Certified Clinical Partner Specialist, Certified Couples Betrayal Recovery Therapist, and Certified Clinical Empathy Specialist and a Consultant in EMDR, she brings new tools and a fresh look at what's needed not only to heal, but heal well. A keynote speaker and a recipient of the 2019 ITAP Outstanding Publication Award for her book, Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal. Dr. Sherry also holds a degree in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. You can follow her on social media at Dr. Sherry Kepfer. 

Beginning of the Podcast and Discussion Topic Introduction

Tara: Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm honestly thrilled to have here with me Dr. Sherry Kepfer. Thank you, Sherry, for being here with me.

Sheri: I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled. I'm [00:02:00] excited to be here and with all those that listen to what you offer.

Tara: Thank you. Well, and we've got a big discussion ahead of us today. I know that for a lot of betrayed partners that I speak to, the subject of boundaries is one of the most difficult to understand and apply. And so we're going to get into that in a moment. But as some context for listeners, if you've been listening for a while, you know that we've been going over the pieces of our SALifeline recovery puzzle.

And if you have not yet, you can go to salifeline.org and you can look and see a visual of that. And we have on the inner part, we have the heart and mind pieces that we went over early on. And then now we've been going over the four pillars. And the last one is boundaries and bottom lines for safety.

So this is really critical and a very important part of the recovery journey. 

Dr. Sherry's Personal Story and Journey into the Field

Tara: So before we continue with this [00:03:00] discussion though, Sherry, I know that you have your own story and some of you may be familiar with Sherry's book, Intimate Deception, Healing the Wounds of Sexual Betrayal, but can you tell me and our listeners a little bit about what brought you into this field? It's not an easy place to be and work.

Sheri: Yeah, well, actually, this would not have been a field that I would have even been in if it wasn't for what happened in my life. And I just want to share that on the front side, as far as a hope giver, going back to when I was at a place that everyone that I'm talking to here today understands, as far as betrayal.

It was in my life. I was married to a pastor and didn't know the extent of his porn addiction, which eventually became a sex addiction, but devastated me. As we dated long distance [00:04:00] I learned a lot about myself through the journey because what I didn't realize is, coming from my home, where there was some severe mental illness, I had a lot of shame. And I think as a way of unconsciously mitigating that embarrassment, that shame, about the mental illness, I dated Connor long distance for a year. Now that worked for me because we were always excited to see each other. But I was afraid to let him really know me. And I think it was similar for him, right?

There were intimacy issues on both sides. Now it doesn't always work that way. There's some folks that come in and they've got great families and they marry somebody who has a porn addiction or sex addiction. But there was a desire to hide, cover up, because I just wanted him to pick me. That happened, but quickly within our marriage, within the first year, I found out that he had been looking [00:05:00] at pornography.

So before our even first year anniversary, I had been devastated by comparisons of porn that were happening ongoing and it just stripped me of my femininity. It stripped me of my security in the marriage. He had pulled away from me sexually which I was like, “Is this normal for a married couple to go through this?”

And so I asked some of my friends and they're like, “No, that's not normal.” But what I didn't know is that Connor was also acting out with prostitutes and had affairs. So all of that came to a peak and I got depressed and eventually because of my depression, drew a line in the sand and we got some help.

So we were in counseling for about four years, went to a treatment center for [00:06:00] pastors and wives with issues. But [it] never really addressed the addiction and the betrayal trauma and sadly, our marriage ended in a divorce because we didn't have SAlifeline like you have, right? We didn't have all this support.

And so our marriage ended. And yet I look at it now and again, while my marriage was a casualty, my life has been anything but that. You and I are talking today because of the growth and redemption and post traumatic growth and all of that can come out of the PTSD and the betrayal trauma, but there's work to do. There's serious healing that needs to happen. 

And this conversation we're having around boundaries today is so important. Boundaries are like that bar of soap for us that just slips out of our hands and it's complicated, at least, [00:07:00] I felt that way. So it's nice to bring some clarity today.

Tara: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all that. And I love that you ended with the hope. Because I know how shattering this can be. You have related betrayal trauma to an earthquake. Can you share that analogy with us?

Sheri: Yeah, it's decimating. Because everything you know about that person that you love, that you're in a committed relationship with, there's two lines, right? There's lines that are running parallel. The line that is all the things you know about meeting them, going out and having dinners and dancing and loving on each other.

And then, maybe getting married, being in a relationship, moving in with each other, however it is you move into that commitment. Then you might start having kids. And so you've got this wonderful process that you're going [through] but what you don't realize is there's a whole other line.[00:08:00] 

There is a line of acting out that goes along with that. And so the earthquake, when you find out that there's been sexual acting out, that's going on, and you begin looking back to what you know and where you were. It's decimating, it erodes the trust in the relationship. 

You look at the other person and say, “Who are you? How could you be doing all of that underneath my nose?” It threatens your future. You wonder about kids and finances. I mean, it is big. It stops everything in its tracks and so it really puts couples into conflict and into crisis and into a need for safety and truth in the relationship. But boundaries are a big part of [00:09:00] getting safe when the one you love is actually hurting you. 

Tara: Well, so today we're going to give our listeners an understanding and some tools to apply this really important concept of boundaries, which can feel really scary when we talk about boundaries. There may even be a question of “What are boundaries?” And so let's start there. 

Understanding the Concept of Boundaries

Tara: What are boundaries? And why are they so critical if you've been affected by sexual betrayal? And maybe how are boundaries different from like punishment, say, because sometimes I think we see it that way.

Sheri: Yeah. When I think of boundaries, I really rely on a very simple explanation that I love. It's by Dr. John Townsend and Dr. Henry Cloud in their book, Boundaries. And what they say is [that] fidelity in committed relationships isn't optional. They talk about boundaries being personal property lines [00:10:00] that actually promote love by protecting individuals.

And so it's the lines in the sand that say what's okay and what's not okay. It's important to be able to even know if something is happening in your world, in your relationship that's hurting you, that you have a right to say ouch, a right to draw a line in the sand. Now, when we're hurting, oftentimes what happens is we, in our pain, in that hurt, get confused and we react in a way that places demands. 

We punish, we're like, “You're going to blah...” whatever that is, right? “I'm going to.....” and we don't follow through. So I have my Wonder Woman shield here. I just want [00:11:00] to share an example. 

When I think about boundaries, we're hurting, and so oftentimes I really look at boundaries like a shield of protection. It's about us. It's about what we need to protect us from the thing that is hurting us, from the behavior, from the person, from the action, whatever that is, instead of punishment, which is this, “Let me just take my shield, right?”

At times, it's like, “Let me just bonk you on the head,” because that's what we feel like doing because we're hurting. We're frustrated. “Stop doing this.” But punishment doesn't work long term because usually there are threats that are not enforceable. The locus of control, the other person, we're putting the control in their hands instead of saying, “This is what I need to stay safe.”

I am 100 [00:12:00] percent always, always responsible for protecting me. Now that means I get to choose. I get to make changes. I get to decide what's going to work for me or not based on being safe and my safety. 

Tara: I appreciated that, that simple definition, personal property lines that promote safety and love.

And in any relationship that's going to thrive, we must have boundaries. Across the board. We're not just talking about a relationship that's been affected by sexual betrayal and addiction. Any relationship must have boundaries to be safe and for a love to thrive. 

So when we're talking about boundaries, specifically in relationships where there has been deception, where there is likely addiction present, the addiction, hijacks the brain. My mom, Rhyll Crowshaw, will often say, “The only language that the addicted brain understands is boundaries,” [00:13:00] because often nothing else speaks to them because they are the center of their own world. Right?

Sheri: You're right. You're right. 

Tara: What would you say then are some signs in that relationship where you need to set a boundary?

Sheri: Yeah. Signs are sexual acting out. Someone is hurting you or pressuring you to do something that you're not comfortable with. There are many times where when somebody begins looking at porn....And I go on the record to say I really hate the porn industry. I think the porn industry is violating people, both within it and there are kids growing up today who are getting hooked into what's out there. There's no condom for the internet. So I am seeing more and more children being victims of the porn industry.

And what happens [00:14:00] when somebody is looking at porn on a regular basis? It begins to compromise their perspective and so they may begin to pressure or want you to do things that are things that they've seen in pornography. And I think there are people who end up behaving in ways, doing things, crossing their own moral plumb lines because they feel like they have to, to keep the other person happy.

But that's not true. You can really feel in your own boundaries. Boundaries can be around your body and around what you are comfortable doing or not doing. I had a quote I wanted to read, which is really, really powerful. And I just came in today and I tried to find out who owned the quote, but there's lots of people that quote it.

And it says this, “Imagine being bitten by a snake and instead of trying to help [00:15:00] yourself heal and recover from the poison, you're trying to catch the snake to find out the reason it bit you and to prove to it that you didn't deserve it.” And it feels like that. For us, we can try to manage that addiction, that addict and the harm that's happening and try to even figure out the reason why instead of just saying, “Ow, this hurts, I've been bitten impacted by this and I need to focus in on how I can protect me.”

So, if something crosses a line and it doesn't feel okay to you, it's not okay. That's a boundary. If it's not okay to you, it's not okay. 

Tara: I love that. And that's so simple. Right? It takes a lot of the guesswork out of it, like, should I be setting a boundary around this behavior? If it doesn't [00:16:00] feel good to you, the answer is yes!

You don't need to go and ask him, “Why are you doing this? Why are you treating me this way?” Yeah. I like the simplicity of that. And I love that example of the snake. That's a fruitless effort. Right? Chasing the snake. Why are you doing this? Why are you hurting me?

Sheri: And don't we all get caught up because we're actually trying to get safe, but we're again trying to get an explanation.

Like you said before, they're not thinking thoughtfully out of what is going on in you. They're just in their addict brain and they're thinking about themselves at that moment.

Tara: So if it doesn't feel good to us, we get to create a boundary. But what then? What are some of the biggest barriers that you have found in women that you're working with and for yourself in creating boundaries and then holding those boundaries?

 Overcoming Barriers in Setting Boundaries

Sheri: I had to spend a ton [00:17:00] of time in my own life unpacking what was underneath my lack of boundary setting and follow through. In my book, there's a chapter called “No is a complete sentence” and I talk about these boulders, these blocking beliefs that get in the way of me even beginning to put a boundary down. 

So the first one is really, “It's not going to work.” If I already believe that it's not going to work, then it's going to be hard to get out of that starting gate. And when I sit with someone that says, “It's not going to work,” then I say, “Okay, so let's stop for a second.” If I can help you define, and if I can think within my own heart, what do I need? What do I need right now based on what hurt is coming my way? If I can define what that need is, [00:18:00] then I ask myself, “What am I willing to do to get that need met?” Is that need worth fighting for? If that need is like oxygen, food or water, then it's going to put me in a position where it brings the core of what I'm looking to protect, very clear. 

Identifying that need and holding on to it is fidelity to self. The second blocking belief I often see is something that's along the line of “I don't deserve to ask.” It's not okay to ask. I'm not worthy of asking for this or that. And a lot of times, Tara, what I find is that can come out of growing up like myself in a home where you've grown up with addiction, you've grown up with sexual boundary [00:19:00] violations, you've grown up with control issues, perfectionistic homes, whatever it is, where you weren't really allowed to be a self. 

It wasn't safe to have needs and wants and all of that. So the brain, you talked about the brain earlier, that our brain wires in a negative belief about ourselves. Like “I don't deserve to ask. I don't matter. I'm insignificant. I'm unimportant.” And those trauma shame beliefs that come from either early family of origin, or even if you're in a relationship.

Let's say you came from a great family, but you've been in a relationship where somebody has a compulsive sexual acting out issue. They're looking at porn and they're sexually acting out, like with Connor and I. Basically what gets wired in is a belief that, “I'm not worth it. I'm not enough. I don't matter.”

And so I've got to do some of my own trauma work. In my book I talk about a 180 degree turnaround [00:20:00] where I've got to figure out what the truth is. The truth of that, if I turned it upside down, the truth is I am enough. I deserve to ask for what I need. It's okay to ask for what I need. I can take up space in this relationship.

And that's some of the trauma work that we as betrayed partners need to do to renegotiate truth for us because I need boundaries around myself and my mind and what I believe. So getting your truth on, I would say, get your truth on because your truth is that shield that lets you know that you matter.

And I think then the last, I'll bring one more boulder up that's in the way of blocking belief, is that “I'm not strong enough. I can't do this.” And that often comes out of another trauma shame belief. That's, “I'm weak. I'm powerless. I'm [00:21:00] helpless. I can't do this.” That can come from living in a chronic addiction, long term.

Some of us have learned helplessness. I know with Connor, I spent years in that one down victim. I'm helpless, powerless, stuck in place. So coming to the realization and doing my own trauma work, realizing that I can take responsibility for myself. I have a voice. I had to get people around me that validated my worth and value so that I began to make choices. That's why the shield is so important to me because I take responsibility for my life and what's going on and I have a voice. I can speak into what I need and I can make choices and that's empowerment, that really has to do with what comes up from the inside out.

So we can change these blocking [00:22:00] beliefs, but do you see the deep work sometimes that needs to be done to get our truth on so that we can even begin putting boundaries down? 

Tara: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. And I think it's worth repeating these blocking beliefs that number one, you're afraid it won't work. Number two, you don't feel like you even deserve to ask to have that boundary in place and that you're not strong enough to hold that boundary. 

Incorporating Spirituality in Boundary Setting

Tara: I know that you are a spiritually minded religious woman. How have you personally brought God into boundary setting and helped other women do that as well in their creation and holding of boundaries? They're working through some of these blocks because we know in the end often we're not strong enough in and of ourselves. But we believe in a God that is powerful enough to help us with it. Tell me a little bit about that. 

Sheri: Yeah. I love how the [00:23:00] Bible talks about how your heart is precious. It guards your heart for it is the wellspring of life. I think even knowing that God values your heart, that it's written in ink, saying “guard your heart” is the wellspring of life. And there's no one that can guard your heart but you. 

I went to Israel. I've been three times. This was a number of years ago, but when I was there, I had this ring made and it's written in Hebrew. And I wear it every day. And there's a verse that I love very much that says, “Fear not for I am with you,” and I had it put on the Lion of Judah. Now, why do I wear this “fear not for I am with you”? It is my reminder on a daily basis that no matter what opposition is coming my way, whether it's in my own [00:24:00] relationships or whether it's the world... I mean, just start saying out there that you think porn isn't okay. Just start saying it out there to start, really like you all [are], helping couples heal and helping people get out from underneath the grips of the sex addiction and the deception that is overtaking them and their families.

And I guarantee you, you will get opposition. And so I live like I’m on the front line, on the cutting edge of that. So if I didn't have God with me, He didn't say, “Fear not,” like fear is not a thing, fear is not a feeling. We all know that fear is a feeling. It's “fear not for I'm with you,” knowing that God is not okay with, He hates the porn industry, and God hates what it's doing to families, to homes, to kids, to relationships. God's on our side, and I really believe, [00:25:00] even though, let me say this as a caveat, you might be listening to me right now, and you might be like I have been at times in my life in a spiritual crisis, in a faith journey.

I mean, I wrote a chapter on it in my book, Where is God? And I went through a period of time where I lost my faith in the fact that God would show up for me because I'm married to a pastor and there's porn affairs, prostitutes. I'm trying to figure out how to just live and get free from all of this. And yet I'm living this very undercover.

I can't tell anyone what's going on live. And I just went through periods of time where I'm like, “Seriously, God, just for Your sake, do something right.” So there that's one of the traumas that happens. We often have a spiritual faith trauma. So if you're here listening right now and you're going, [00:26:00] okay, now I can really relate to her because like, why can't God stop this?

Why isn't God helping me? Or why didn't You help me? So often that spiritual faith trauma wires in a negative belief, even about God, that God's weak, that God's not strong enough or God doesn't care. But that's another one of our stinky brain's ways of trying to protect us from being hurt from God or the one who's hurting us and coming into truth. 

It is that God really is on your side and God is not only trying to help you heal and get stronger, God is trying to pull that person out of the pit that they are embedded in. Lust, the ancient Hebrew word for lust is “ava,” which means the strong nail that hooks you to itself. The strong nail that hooks [00:27:00] you to itself.

That's Ancient Hebrew in contrast to the derivative of hope, which is “kaveh.” It comes from the word lust, which is so interesting, but “kaveh” means what comes after the nail. God is all about what comes after the nail, which is where the hope comes from. But I'm telling you, people are hooked in the area of lust and acting out and we know it hurts them and it hurts everyone around them.

Tara: Yeah. Thank you so much for addressing that. I think that's really important to remember this population that we're speaking to. There's rupture all over the place, rupture, not just in the marriage relationship, but in their spiritual lives. 

I know that that can be a really difficult place to be in 12 step. We talk about sometimes when that rupture has happened, we open up ourselves to a [00:28:00] higher power that we do not yet understand, but believe can bless and help and lift us. And that maybe where we are at [is] just a seed of hope that there is a power greater than ourselves that will strengthen us,  and is there [for us], that does love us and and will lead us out of this, but stronger and better.

So thank you for addressing that. So let's say for instance, if a partner, and I'm speaking from experience talking to a friend who's in a hard situation with her spouse.

Addressing Fear and Safety Concerns in Boundary Setting

Tara: There is fear associated with setting boundaries. She's afraid of the potential abuse or retribution that could follow. I know we were just talking about believing in a God that can help us overcome fear. But what practical counsel would you give to someone who says, “I'm afraid for the safety of myself and my children if I set a boundary?” 

Sheri: Yeah, that is [00:29:00] so real. And actually that fear is why some of us don't set boundaries. I have seen in situations like that where a boundary isn't set because of fear. Basically what happens is the seeds of whatever is happening only grow. It's like gangrene or cancer. And I'm not trying to tell you that to scare you. I'm trying to tell you that even fear has a consequence attached to it because it just gives liberty to the one who feels like there isn't any pushback.

Now, that's just it , a simple thing, but I want to talk very straight. If you're in a relationship where there is abuse, where you're being harmed, hit, verbally abused, financially abused. I have [00:30:00] clients who come in and they're showing me things that clearly are harmful in the area of acting out.

Oftentimes there's gaslighting. Gaslighting is psychological abuse. Gaslighting happens when somebody strategically twists the truth to make you believe that something is wrong with you, rather than talking about what they're doing over here. The lie that they're hiding, the acting out that they're hiding.

DARVO, is another form of psychological abuse that is an acronym. D is “deny the behavior,” attack the one that's confronting you, reverse the victim and the offender. So that's a form of [where] you end up being seen as the perpetrator and they're in the victim seat. Right? Now, sometimes these things are happening.

And when I work with couples. I have to do some [00:31:00] education around that because the person that's doing that isn't necessarily doing it with malice or intent. But what is happening is because they're hiding the sexually acting out, they are reactive. When a boundary is set down, they do attack, they get mad, they are upset.

And in doing the education around that, oftentimes the one who's acting out will say, “I do that all the time,” and I go, “I know, I know, and that's why they're hurting. So that, did you know that that's a form of abuse? It's psychological abuse.” And they're like, “No, I'm not abusing her.” And I go, “Well, actually, you could Google it.”

Recognizing and Addressing Domestic Abuse

Sheri: It's a real thing, right? And just kind of to normalize it, to bring an awareness that that is harmful. If you're in a state where there's somebody chronically abusing you and you are living in terror and fear because no matter what you're doing, that person continues [00:32:00] to verbally put you down, shame you, manipulate you, grab you financially, withhold money from you.

I want you to get help, even reaching out to a national domestic violence hotline or reaching out to your organization. Those are non tolerable things. You know, the question we have to ask ourselves is “What is it about me that is continuing to stay in a relationship with somebody who's abusing me and or maybe abusing me in front of our kids or even acting out in a harmful way with them?”

The Importance of Setting Boundaries

Sheri: We have to draw lines around that because those are critical safety issues that aren't often talked about in recovery worlds, because it's so scary to bring that up, but it does happen a ton with sexual deception. 

Tara: Thank you. And that again, that takes a brave heart [00:33:00] to draw that hard line but believe that you are valuable enough, that your children, if you can't find a reason, that your children are valuable enough to draw that hard line and get yourself some help.

And hopefully in most cases, it's not that intense that you can set boundaries, not fearing physical retribution, emotional abuse but that’s a possibility and something to consider and keep in mind. 

Courage in the Face of Fear

Sheri: Can I share one more thing? And this is a side caveat note. I have this big piece of art that quotes, “Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway.” It's a quote by John Wayne. And this is what I want to say is a hundred percent of the time, a hundred percent when I have to put a boundary down today, I feel anxiety and fear a hundred percent. Maybe I'm weird, maybe I'm [00:34:00] odd, maybe there's something wrong with me, but I doubt it.

I think I'm just normal because we're drawing a line. So when you feel that anxiety, and it's not in the abuse you and I just talked about Tara, but it's the normal anxiety that comes with protecting yourself and putting a boundary down. No. That anxiety is normal and it doesn't mean stop. It just is that marker that says courage is being scared to death, feeling it and saddling up anyway and moving forward with that boundary. 

And it's okay if you do something to set a boundary and it doesn't work well the first time you have to learn and tweak it. And this is not about perfection. It's about empowerment. It's about making some changes. And say, “Go you!” for drawing the lines when you need to, but it's an anxiety and fear is a normal part of saying no.

Choosing Victory Over Victimhood

Tara: [00:35:00] Yes. And you know, I was listening to another podcast this morning and this woman said, “I can either choose to be a victim or I can be victorious. I have those two options. And victorious looks like doing hard things.”

It looks like being that brave, brave woman, right? The backbone of steel, saying, “This is not okay.” And we will expect that when we make a boundary, especially in a committed relationship, kind of like a two year old is going to respond. There's going to be a tantrum there. There's going to be some type of reaction that we do not like. Just like we keep doing the same thing, we're going to get the same results.

So we can choose victim or we can choose victory, but we must be brave. And I love that you said, “We're not going to do this perfectly.” Of course we're not. This is a skill that we learn over a long period of time. And my mom has been working her own recovery for 18 years. She's married to an addict for 30 plus, I mean, [00:36:00] prior to getting good sobriety and recovery for 30 plus years, right?

So she still is trying to figure things out in her relationship, although their relationship is very good. Any relationship will always require boundaries. So anyway, I just wanted to reiterate, “Be brave.” This will be hard, but there's victory ahead if you can do these hard things. 

The Power of Boundaries in Relationships

Tara: I think this is one of the hardest things as we talk about “How do I set a boundary?” and “What do good boundaries look like?” and there are a million billion scenarios for which a boundary might be called for.

So we can't talk about every single situation but can you give us an example, maybe from your own life or from the life of someone you've worked with, where it's clear that a boundary needed to be set, how they went about setting that boundary and then holding that boundary as it was tested?

Sheri: Love it. 

A Real-Life Example of Setting Boundaries

Sheri: So let me share with you just a quick story and I have permission to [00:37:00] share this story of Roxy and Don, a couple.

And it's a good story because Roxy and Don, both in their lives, had some early trauma. Roxy had grown up in an alcoholic home, and she was groomed by a neighbor. Sexually groomed and was acted out upon when she was in her teenage years. Don had grown up, found porn when he was eight years old and had some bullying with some friends at school. He had a painful time where these boys bullied him, stripped him naked, and threw him in a pool.

A trauma event, and then he was molested by a neighbor. So lots of boundary violations growing up, coming into the marriage. When they met, they had some challenges around boundaries because neither one of them had a really fortified sense of boundaries early [00:38:00] on. Sadly, what happened is Don had been using porn for years and was actually caught soliciting an undercover police officer for sexual favors. Acting out. 

He had also been drinking. And his alcohol level was high and so he was given a DUI and put in jail. So he called Roxy and said, “I need to be bailed out.” And she was like, “what are you talking about?” She bailed him out of jail. Once he got out he started going back to work, but he couldn't drive.

So they had kids and Roxy was getting up in the morning very early at 6 a. m. to do the lunches, get the kids all ready, and then driving Don to work and she's exhausted. She was coming in going, “I just, I can't even keep going. This is too much.” And so we unpacked it and I said, “So [00:39:00] you're driving Don into work.”

And she said, “Yes.” And I said, “So how long have you been being his chauffeur?” She said, “What are you talking about?” I said, “Well, you're driving him into work. When something happens like this, there's three questions we ask. Who is in control? Where's the problem? Like, what is the problem? Who is in control of that problem? And then who's going to fix that problem, right?” 

And I said, “I think the problem is yours.” And she's like, “No, it's not mine. I don't know that you heard me. I'm driving him into work. I've got to pack the kids’ lunches”. She shared everything. And I said, “No, it's yours, Roxy.”

She said, “Why?” I said, “You've become his loyal chauffeur. You have taken on a natural consequence. I have one word that could help you today, draw a line in the sand and put boundaries around what's going on in your world.” And she said, what's that? I [00:40:00] said one word, three letters. Bus. And she started laughing, she's like, “What do you mean?”

I go, “Well, bus, Don can take a bus.” I said, “Okay. It's like, who created the problem?” She said, “Don.” And then “Who's in control of that?” “Don.” And then “Who's going to fix it?” “Don.” It was like, “Don, Don, Don, Don.” Like something out of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. She and I just laughed. 

But the point is. She didn't apply boundaries. So how would that sound? So when I worked with her to come up with the language around that, this is what she said. “Don, I am here with you and I am doing my best to work through what happened. And since you've been out of jail, we have kids, we're trying to work on just making things go by now.”

The boundary had to do with, “I'm not okay[00:41:00] with driving you every day. I'm not okay with that because I need some peace, I need to have time in the morning.” So she identified what she was not okay with and what she needed then. She was like, “Well I mean, you can continue to ask me to drive you every morning. You can ask me every morning if you want to. I can't stop you from coming to me and asking.” She said, “But if you continue to ask me every morning to drive you, I'm going to say ‘no’, because I'm going to make suggestions like ‘You take a bus or you walk or you have somebody from your work pick you up’.”

It was so nice for her to be in a place where she could say, “You know, I can't stop you from doing this.” So whether that's, “I can't stop you from looking at pornography or I can't stop you from the affair that you're having,” giving somebody the obvious is “I can't stop you from doing that.”

If you [00:42:00] do continue doing that thing, then I am going to..whatever that is, that's enforceable. Like, “If you continue to have that affair, then I am going to need to talk to somebody about how to protect my safety financially in our relationship, because I can't work on our relationship if you're still having that affair.”  Or pornography, “If you're continuing to look at pornography, then (this is something that's enforceable) then I am not comfortable sleeping in the same bed with you.” Like “Knowing that you're doing that, I've still found it for some reason, the nickel hasn't dropped and I just can't be in that same place with you.”

That's enforceable. But those are all about protecting myself. With Roxy, protecting her schedule, her time and Don, when he was taking the bus, because he did start taking the bus, it was a few blocks away to get to it. 
But he had time to think about [00:43:00] the discomfort and the impact of the choices that he made. And that's not a bad thing. We don't want to rescue people from the impact of the choices that they've made. That's how we all grow. 

The Role of Boundaries in Healing

Tara: I really appreciate that example that you shared. When we recognize that when we're setting boundaries and allowing people to experience the natural consequences of their actions, you're right, that's a part of the learning process for all of us. But that in and of itself can be really powerful, right?

We don't have to be severe, often, in order to make an impact when we draw a line. But I was also thinking, so in your book, you talk about non-negotiable boundaries and making a list. And I was curious, what would that look like? Say you've been in a relationship for a while, and you more recently realized that you were being deceived. That there's been, say, an affair going on or we'll even just [00:44:00] say pornography.

What would that meeting look like as you sit down and you go over some non- negotiable boundaries? And let's say in scenario one, your partner agrees that there needs to be some boundaries. In scenario two, they disagree and say, “I'm not going to respect that boundary.” 

Sheri: I can appreciate that. So non-negotiables, you know, if you are in a relationship with somebody and there has been. consent. Consent is a relationship where we have said we are a unit, we're committed, there's fidelity here, and you have not agreed to sexual acting out, right? That's non consensual behavior. 

So you have something to stand on to say, “I am standing on fidelity.” Fidelity is non-negotiable unless you both have [00:45:00] agreed to have a revolving door. And even in those relationships, because I've worked with couples where there were revolving doors. You know what happens over time? They don't like it. It's just the way things are meant to be. They may think it's good for a while or fun and then all of a sudden there's jealousy and all of that.

So fidelity is a non negotiable. Safety for kids. And so knowing that you get to protect your home. There are situations where let's say somebody found out that their significant other was going to massage parlors and having experiences where there's sexual acting out going on there. A non-negotiable for you might be, “I'm not comfortable with you going to massage parlors. Thanks. I'm not, even though you would be going to a place that you're saying is sports medicine [00:46:00] or whatever. I'm just not comfortable.”

I've had clients go, “Oh, we can go to a massage if it's both of us at the same time.” Right. And there are parameters where you can say we could do this within these safety parameters.

But allowing that to happen and the anxiety that it causes in recovery when there has been no or little time or even years. Sometimes people have said, “You know, I'm not comfortable with you ever doing it again.” So thinking no-negotiables for you, things that don't work. 

Now, there are times when you may say. “I really need you to be in your own treatment. I need you to be seeing a certified sex addiction therapist. I need you to be in a 12 step recovery group as a recovery group or SAA.”

And if that person says, “I'm not doing [00:47:00] that, I'm not going, I'm not going to that therapist. I'm not going to do those 12 steps. I'm not going to do it.” Then oftentimes, where do we go? We feel powerless and helpless in that situation because now the person is just saying, no, they're being honest with you. I'm not doing it. At that point we might feel that all is lost, but remember, remember, even when somebody says no, and you have your wonder woman shield up, you still have a choice.

It's just that the no is devastating. It's not what you wanted to hear. You're with somebody who might be in sexual entitlement, like they might just be saying, “I want to keep sexually acting out. It's silly, stupid. I'm not interested in doing the work,” or whatever reason, then you get to decide what you want to do with someone who's [00:48:00] unwilling to do the work to help them heal.

And that's what happened with Connor and I. We were in counseling for four years, going individually and together as a couple. He was unwilling to go to a sex addiction 12 step group. He says, “I don't want to go. I'm not as bad as those other people.” I didn't know about the affairs and prostitutes that were going on at that time.

But I had to eventually draw a line in the sand that says, “I'm not okay with the revolving door and I'm not okay. I need fidelity,” He didn't want the divorce, of course, because he wanted me and he wanted that whole other world, but I was unwilling. And I had to do some real soul searching and come to a place where I just said, “I'm not willing to live in both worlds anymore.” And we parted ways.

Tara: Well, and that is the hard reality is that [00:49:00] sometimes these relationships won't work. I don't know what the stats are on that. I know that my parents story is unusual with the level of trauma and betrayal and the depth of the addiction that was present. It is nothing short of a miracle quite honestly that my parents' marriage survived. Divorce is a credible option and I think we have to be okay to accept that. 

Sheri: Well, because I think your parents did their work. I have this thing I created, it's a betrayal recovery roadmap here at our office. When we take people through these steps, the couple through these steps, to recover from betrayal trauma and from the sexual acting out, there are very clear things that can be done.

We see that when couples are willing to walk through these [00:50:00] steps, what happens is we probably have a 94, 95 percent positive turn on couples that have gone through the process that are together, that are sober. Now that's really not about me or others that I work with. It's really about them doing the work and having a clear path for recovery. 

So often we don't know what to do. We just feel lost, like we're wandering in the wilderness. And that's where I was with Connor. But there is a clear path, as you know. And that's the best chance at success. Your parents are now heroes in my heart. They have proved, they are the hope givers to prove that it is possible. 

Tara:Yes. Well,  and thank you. You're a hundred percent right. I didn't mean to frame that they were just a one off situation. No, we've seen this miracle, I'll still call it a miracle, replicated. We have this [00:51:00] podcast and this foundation. When you do your work because you know that there is a path. 

And so yes, a hundred percent, a thousand percent, but we have to be willing to do the work and we both have to be willing to do the work. And so yes, thank you so much for clarifying that. There's always hope. But I know that there are women sometimes that feel like, “Is divorce even an option?” Yes, it is. And we have to believe that the God of our understanding will support us whatever route we choose.

If we are trying, if we're following our heart and our values, and if our partner doesn't want to do the work, they will phase out of the relationship, I believe. 

Sheri: I often say that I think God supports betrayed partners like widows and orphans. There's a very special care and there's too many stories in my own life and in many, many partners that I love and serve, stories of God’s support and care. [00:52:00] That if the relationship doesn't work, that there is good that can come and you can rebuild your life. 

Tara: So in my preparation for this interview I was listening to a podcast interview you did with another gal and you shared some interesting statistics. But you talked about when asking, I believe it was a hundred women, “If the husband, if the partner did the work, would they stay in the relationship?” Am I getting the details right? Fill in the blanks here for us. 

Sheri: So I did. My book has these research pockets, really wonderful things. But you know, in looking at the lying and deception, when all the sexual acting out was laid out there, I said, While both these things are worse, the sexual acting out and the lies that continue, which one is worse?

Well, 65 percent of them said it is the lies that really are the [00:53:00] killer to the relationship. That [it] was ongoing lies, the lack of sobriety and the lack of doing what they need to do. But then when I asked, “Would you be willing to stay if the one you're with did the work and stop[ed] lying, like worked on their path and sobriety?

88% of the women said, “I will do that. I will stay. I can rebuild.” We see that here. We even see higher numbers if the one who's acting out will do the work on their sobriety and stop lying. 

Tara: Yeah, and isn't that incredible? 

The Choice Between Honesty and Deception

Tara: And for just the briefest moment, before I ask you the final question, I wanted to say a word to those who are struggling with addiction that are listening to this podcast. And we recognize that you've had your own challenges, your own suffering, your own trauma that may have brought you to your addiction.

We recognize, however, if you want that relationship to continue, you must learn to [00:54:00] respect your partner's boundaries and recognize that that will be a key part of her healing, building trust. Again, in the relationship, but also of your healing, the boundaries for both partners are critical in healing the individual and the relationship. 

Let that be a hopeful thing for you, but there must be a choice. Will I choose honesty and humility and accountability and my relationship? That's the option. Honesty, humility, accountability. Or will I choose my counterfeit relationship with porn, with lust, with sex? That's never going to be enough. It will never be enough. It may be the drug that numbs it all out for a day or two. But just recognize that the choice is that clear and that your partner, if the stats are right, and I believe you Sherry, your partner is willing to stay [00:55:00] even with all the hurt if you will be honest and work.

It's worth it. And as the daughter of a recovering addict, someone who watched this unfold, the hurt and the pain on both sides and then eventually healing coming for them and then for my family. You have the opportunity to change generations. The impact that you can have is huge. So I'm sorry, I went off on a rant.

The Power of Hope and Healing

Sheri: I'm saying, ‘No,” beautiful what you just said, because that is the hope. I mean, look at you, you're a daughter of a sex addict who has a podcast who brings people in and you're very involved in helping people heal. And look at me. I'm the former wife of somebody who was unwilling to do the work, but it doesn't stop there. That is where there is this [00:56:00] remaking where grief and the stages of grief, there is a part of redemption, a new beginning that can happen in all of this. 

Even though you might be sitting here today, listening to Tara and I going, “I'm just trying to get up in the morning,”we get that. We're talking some time down the road, but we're here with you as you're just trying to get up in the morning to say, “You can do this. We're here. We want to help you. We want to support you. We believe you and we want to help you grow stronger.”

Tara: Yes, thank you. Well, this has been such a fun conversation, enlightening on so many levels. I hope for our listeners that you've learned, I know you've learned something, but that you have a little bit more courage now to move forward with a warrior heart. Be brave. 

Final Thoughts and Resources

Tara: In fact, as I talk about being brave, Sherry, if people want to find you [00:57:00] and use some of your resources, where should they go?

Sheri: Yeah. So I have a Brave One community. And if you're interested in spending some time with me, I actually do a process which helps you move from the finding out, all that discovery trauma, all the way to fierce strength. It's my Brave One journey. And I'm also right now working on my “Boot Kicking Boundary Setting Brave One” challenge. This is all about boundaries. I do it and I love doing it.

So if you are hearing me today and you want to jump into my community, you can do that and get started. Just go to braveone.com/community. It's B R A V E O N E. com forward slash, and then the word community. And I also wanted to mention that I do face to face retreats, and I have a retreat that's coming up. I'm very excited about it. It's called “Bravery After Betrayal. [00:58:00] It Takes Fierce Strength.” It's coming up at the end of March, and I'll go ahead and give you the information, Tara, maybe you can put that in for them.

But if you're interested in knowing more, it's in March, just what, eight weeks away? It is a face to face retreat, lots of organic, real experiential work to help you grow from the inside out. Just go to braveone.com/retreats. It's B R A V E O N E. com forward slash retreats. And that's just some weeks away. It's in March, the end of March. 

Tara: Awesome. And we can put that in the show notes. Okay. Before I let you go, the final question that we always ask is, I know that there are going to be a variety of people listening to this episode that are at different stages of their journey.

So what would you say to that partner that's just discovered the deception, that's just, starting out. And then on the other end, somebody that's been working for a while who needs a [00:59:00] little boost.

Sheri: Okay. Let me speak to the one that has just found out. I think the thing that I want to say to you is please, please be kind to yourself. You most likely are in shock. You are numb. You are disorientated. You are hurting. You are panicked. You are fearful. 

And on my betrayal recovery roadmap. I call that D day or discovery. So there's crisis shock, shock, all of that. And so at this time, I just want you to, probably the hardest thing for you to do in the midst of all the shock, is to seek support. Is to reach out because there's tremendous shame in just finding out. But you're here today. You're on the podcast. Would you please just follow this podcast and all the resources that are part of this opportunity that you're listening to today? You need [01:00:00] the help and the encouragement and the support and coming towards people like you, Tara or me or organizations like this. Guess what? We get it. There's no shame because you can talk to us and we're like, “Yes,” validation. So you'll be very safe. 

Now somebody who has been going for a while and kind of needs a little boost. Sometimes people and couples get stuck, they get stuck in the not knowing. And this is a whole other conversation, maybe for another day, but I believe that there are two pillars, safety and the truth.

And when couples get stuck in the not knowing because they haven't gotten a disclosure that is a therapeutic, a full disclosure, which is very different than somebody writing something down on a napkin at an In and Out burger, a place outside on a chair. You know,that I've heard so many stories about disclosures, [01:01:00] but you may feel stuck in your relationship.

The next step for you is restoring integrity and restoring honesty and getting into a place of truth seeking so there can be equity in the marriage as far as what's been done and what you know. And so that you can grieve, not only grieve what you know, but grieve what you don't know. So that might be the next step is to start looking at how you're still fearful and still feel unsafe and see if maybe honesty might be the answer for that. And I just want to encourage you to be brave there. 

Tara: Thank you. Thank you so much, Sherry. Really appreciate you, the great work you're doing in this field. Thanks for being here with me today. 

Sheri: Appreciate it. Loved it. [01:02:00]