Your Nervous System During and After Sexual Betrayal w/ KayLee Dunn

In this episode, host Tara McCausland welcomes  guest expert KayLee Dunn, a  psychotherapist and betrayal navigation coach. KayLee shares her expertise in helping individuals, especially women, rebuild trust and heal after intimate betrayal. She discusses the role of the nervous system in betrayal trauma, introducing concepts like neuro-intuitive boundaries and survival mode responses. The conversation delves into practical ways to self-regulate, the importance of self-compassion, and the power of pausing and observing one’s reactions. They also explore the dynamics between betrayed and betraying partners, emphasizing understanding and intentional responses. Whether new to betrayal recovery or an old-timer on this journey, Kaylee offers insightful advice and hope for navigating the complex path of healing.

Connect with KayLee at kayleedunn.com

03:43 Understanding the Nervous System
04:54 Personal Experience and Neurointuitive Boundaries
07:57 The Role of the Nervous System in Trauma Responses
14:05 Self-Compassion and Understanding Reactions
20:28 Practical Steps for Healing and Self-Education
23:37 Harnessing Your Inner Survivor Skills
27:18 Connecting with Higher Power and Intuition
35:07 Mindfulness and Meditation
37:20 Safety and Stabilization in Healing
41:50 Observing and Regulating Responses
48:27 The Importance of Community and Support
55:04 Final Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Introduction 0:06

This is Pathway to Recovery, an S.A. Lifeline Foundation podcast, featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the SA Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland 0:37

This episode's guest expert is KayLee Dunn. She is a trauma psychotherapist and betrayal navigation coach, specializing in helping women restore trust with themselves and others after intimate betrayal. As the founder of the Rebirth Method coaching program and owner of the Aspen Springs Therapy Clinic, KayLee guides individuals and couples through the journey of healing after betrayal. With expertise in modalities such as EMDR, parts work, and intensive therapy, she empowers her clients to reclaim their sense of self-worth and cultivate thriving relationships. KayLee resides in southern Arizona with her husband, five children, and two dogs. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm really happy to have here with me my friend KayLee Dunn. Welcome. KayLee, it's so fun to have you on.

KayLee Dunn 1:30

Thank you so, so much, Tara. It's so exciting to come back and chat with you.

Tara McCausland 1:35

Yeah, you know, KayLee actually has a history with SA Lifeline.

KayLee Dunn 1:40

Yeah, along. It's a blast from the past.

Tara McCausland 1:42

Yeah. So SA Lifeline is 15 years old, and you were probably in the mix in the first five years of its.

KayLee Dunn 1:51

Oh, yeah. I think the second, either second or second and a half year I joined on and built out the circles model on paper and put it on the computer and which is now the puzzle model. Yeah.

Tara McCausland 2:05

So we have the recovery puzzle and then we have the circles model.

KayLee Dunn 2:07

The circles model, yeah. So so yeah, that was OG, right? And spent the year with Rill and Steven writing Rill's book, and what a great time. It was a huge blessing in my life, that's for sure.

Tara McCausland 2:23

Well, I think thanks is due for all of that work and effort. There are a lot of people that have been behind the scenes in the last 15 years that have really been integral in a lot of the development of education and publications. And you're one of those people. So thank you, KayLee.

KayLee Dunn 2:40

You're awesome. And it was awesome to be a part of it. I'll tell you that.

Tara McCausland 2:45

And since then, you've started your own practice and you're doing great things in the world of recovery and sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. Not an easy field to work in, but hopefully rewarding most of the time. Yep. So today we'll be talking about something that I think will be very helpful in the healing process for those of us that have suffered from betrayal trauma. And I think also those who suffer from addiction, trauma is a part of their story, and that affects our nervous system. So we'll be talking about our nervous system during and after sexual betrayal specifically. We were saying before we got started, how how in depth do we want to go here? Yeah. I said, I trust you, KayLee. I trust that you can explain this in a way that our listeners can understand. So we're going to start right off with that question like, how does our nervous system work? And the floor is yours. Okay, take it away, KayLee. Take it away.

Personal Experience and Neurointuitive Boundaries

The Role of the Nervous System in Trauma Responses

Self-Compassion and Understanding Reactions

KayLee Dunn 3:43

Yeah. So if you don't mind, I'm going to rewind a little bit and talk just briefly about why we're talking about the nervous system at all and what is it, right? So your nervous system is all of the nerves that are in your body. And nerves are basically the little wires of tissue that carry electricity and signals throughout your whole body. That includes your brain, that includes your spinal cord. And then it also includes all the nerves that go to the tips of your fingers and allows you to see and smell and think and hear, and all of your senses are because of this complex, very complex nervous system. And when we think about betrayal and we think about sexual addiction, we know that it is such a complex experience and it affects every part of the self, all the way from the macro, like in society, down to our very cells. And because trauma affects us so deeply, often we have to become educated on everything from society all the way down to the little nerves, the little fibers in our body, and how they're firing and why and when they're firing. And for me personally, this became, I became aware of this process almost unconsciously when I was going through and experiencing my own betrayal many, many years ago and trying to heal and finding myself stuck over and over again. I had a lot of education and information and knowledge at that point in time about all of this stuff. And, you know, I knew that my thoughts influence my emotions and those influence my actions. I knew that my actions influence other people and that other people influence me, but I still continued to find myself stuck over and over again. And kind of accidentally, I regulated my nervous system and found myself unstuck. I think it was probably divinely, divinely appointed in some ways, where I was in a position where often I would find myself trying to have conversations with my husband, and I would find myself completely frozen, where I would feel just if you've experienced betrayal, you know when I say you want to just tear all your skin off and run away. You just have that frozen feeling, you express yourself, and they're looking at you frozen, and you're frozen, and it's just this miserable, miserable experience. And in part due to the skills and tools I had learned up until that point from 12-step, from therapists, from my own clinical learning, I calmed and there was clarity. And in that clarity, I could hear my higher power, my own intuition, and then I could make decisions and make movement. And that process I now call neurointuitive boundaries, which is where we can regulate our nervous system, sense our intuition and our higher power, and then make strategic decisions. And that's where we gain this traction, this movement. And to be fair, people had been teaching me these skills, you know, things like breathing and prayer and on your knees and in the box and all of these skills, but I didn't quite understand what the heck I was really doing. And in fact, I'm kind of a rebellious little soul. And I, you know, I probably was had some immaturity because I was quite young at the time. But I would often feel like I would push back, you know, it would people would say, Oh, calm down. And I'm like, excuse me, calm down. Do you know what I've been through? You know, and I didn't have a why for this process, right? So I didn't invent, I invented the phrase neurointuitive boundaries, or I guess I discovered the phrase and the concept. But these tools and skills for regulating your nervous system, you know what these are. If you've listened to a podcast, if you've been to a 12-step group, you know what these skills are. But to know why you're doing it can be extremely empowering, especially if you find yourself feeling unsafe or unsure of what's going to happen next. It can feel really scary for people to tell you to calm down when you're feeling really dysregulated. You're feeling really what I call in survival mode, when you're in a state of survival and someone tells you, don't survive anymore, like, excuse me, what now? So let's talk about the nervous system with that context in mind that been there, experience that, and have a set of skills and a and a why for these specific skills and how they're going to help direct you in your own healing. And for those that are listening who maybe have a sex addiction or a compulsion or struggle with these type of betraying behaviors, this stuff applies for you too, because we all have nervous systems, right? And we all get dysregulated. And oftentimes we can find ourselves struggling to communicate clearly or to make good choices because we're dysregulated. So our nervous system is made up of a central nervous system, which is our brain and spinal cord, and a peripheral nervous system, which is all of the nerves that come off of that. And for a long time, the way it's been taught, and I think it's actually a really brilliant way to talk about the way uh human psychology is that I have a thought. Let's say that thought is I'm not pretty. Okay. And then I have a feeling, and that feeling that comes from I'm not pretty is shame, sad, embarrassed. And then I have, and then I make a reaction to that feeling, and I might not go out to a party that day. Okay. I don't know. I'm just making up a story off the top of my head. And so then the concept being, okay, well, then don't think you're not pretty. Like, easy, just change your thought. And I guess I do think there's some brilliance to this methodology. So I'm not just like throwing that methodology away, but I actually just want to add to that methodology and say that before that thought comes a nervous system response. Because our brain communicates, the central nervous system, our brain communicates about 20% of the time to our nervous system, and our nervous system communicates about 80% to the brain. So and if you stop and think about it for a minute, it makes complete sense, right? Because we can't have conscious awareness of every piece of data that our body needs to take in. Because there's a fan up here making noise, and there's like papers over there wrestling, and my kids are in the other room making noise, and I'm a little cold, and my I'm sitting in the seat, and I'm trying to like orient myself in space so I don't fall down. There's a millions and billions of bits of data that my body needs to take in to just orient itself in life. And if I had to be conscious of all of those, no way. You know, I wouldn't be able to do that. That would, I couldn't even do anything else, right? And so our nervous system takes in millions and billions of bits of data and filters it into our brain. And I won't get into that whole process, but filters it into our brain. And as it does so, only so many pieces rise to the surface of a thought that we have and an emotion that we have. And so sometimes it's not just a thought that causes our emotion, it might be a nervous system response. And that nervous system response is there's a multitude of layers, I won't get into all of it, but there is that survival component, right? That's your fight, flight, freeze, fawn, flop response. Those responses aren't things we choose. It's autonomic, or in other words, it's automatic. And when we experience betrayal, we experience that as a primal level threat. So what I mean by that is when we discover betrayal for the first time and we learn more, especially if there's drip truthing or how whatever you want to call that, where you hear little bits of truth over the course of time, each time those events occur can become can be very traumatic because it threats, puts a threat on our attachment system. And our nervous system experiences it as though it's a primal level threat. So the example being the woman who's like the cave woman and the lion comes into the camp. She doesn't really get to choose that her heart rate jumps through her throat and her breathing starts to go fast and her stomach contents empty and she runs away, right? She doesn't really get to choose that. It's an automatic response in the nervous system to have all of these things happen in our body and these thoughts and feelings and these feelings to go run away or to fight and grab some fire and chase the lion. And we would look at that cave woman and be like, you go, girl, you fight that lion, right? But what happens with betrayal is this isn't the cave woman days. This is modern times. And if there's a desire to keep the relationship together, or if you're unsure, you might just find yourself doing all sorts of things that you're like, what am I doing? Why am I throwing this lamp? Why am I crying in my room for hours on end and can't go take care of my kids like I want to? Why am I sending him pictures of myself, even though I know he's not safe? Why am I collapsing, right? Why am I frozen during this conversation and I really just need to walk away? Well, because your nervous system is influenced first. And when your nervous system is influenced first rather than the thought first, sometimes it goes straight to that autonomic where there's not, we don't necessarily have control over it. So my phrase is always we don't always get to choose the first thought or the first emotion, but we get to choose the second thought and emotion once we know. But you can go years and years, I certainly did go years and years not even knowing that that's happening. And you can go years and years being really what others might call reactive instead of responsive and not know why, and know that you're even doing it and know what the skills and tools are, but find yourself stuck over and over again. So, how our nervous system plays out in in betrayal and the aftermath of betrayal. So when we when there's a discovery and then the aftermath is everything often is often everything. And sometimes we try to like beat ourselves back with a stick, like stop being angry or stop throwing lamps, because of course we don't want to, you know, that's gonna get us in trouble. The law doesn't care, the law says don't throw lamps, right? So don't do these things, and then we we find ourselves unable to do so. So then is all lost because our first reaction is outside of our control, it's a nervous system response. I just have to be reactive. No, all is not lost, but it is giving you hopefully context for a lot of self-compassion, a lot of grace, and a lot of self-understanding to go, oh, my body was actually built to do this. My body was built to protect me, to keep me safe, to prevent further harm. And that the way that I'm coping in this, especially early stages, but that can be ongoing if you don't have the knowledge and support. The way that I'm coping isn't pathological, isn't broken for you know, you may have some stuff like depression, anxiety, or childhood traumas that predated this event. So you might have some stuff you got to deal with there, right? If there's some predated stuff, but your response to the betrayal itself is not pathological or messed up or crazy or any of that. And you probably hear that people telling you that. Well, this is why these reactions aren't you just being crazy. This is you coping and surviving, and your nervous system doesn't know. Your nervous system is just a nervous system. All it knows is it's getting signals that there's a lion trying to eat you, and so it's trying to keep you safe. And instead of pathologizing those responses, what we can do and or shaming those responses or kind of being like, come on now, just think better, try harder. What we can do is start with actually a lot of kindness, a lot of softness, and say, Oh, actually, I'm awesome, and my nervous system is doing what it's supposed to be doing, and that's not a bad thing. It's not a long-term solution, but it's not a bad thing. I was talking to a teaching this to someone, and they said something to the effect of like, oh, it's like when I'm on my mountain bike going over the mountain bike trade, and it's so scary and it's uncomfortable, and I don't like it, but then I have to remind myself, wait, my mountain bike was built for this. I'm gonna survive it. It's uncomfortable. And your nervous system is built to navigate this for the short term. It's not built to navigate ongoing betrayal over and over and over and over and over again for a lifetime, but it is built to navigate a primal level threat in the short term and to cope in this way.

Tara McCausland 16:25

So good, KayLee, and so validating. And thank you for starting off with this is my experience, as it often is, right? People that I'm not saying that everybody that goes into this work has experience with it personally, but I I just know that women who have been betrayed and men who've been betrayed, there's a level of okay, she gets this. This has been her experience, not just from like an academic perspective, but from a on a personal level. Yeah. So I just love how again validating this is, and that as you said, my body is reacting in a way it's supposed to. Because I think, and I and I I don't like to always be repeating myself, but I think a lot of people who have been betrayed just feel crazy. Yeah. Like, what's wrong with me? Why can't why can't I just calm down? And so instead of practicing self-compassion, it's I'm gonna shame myself into changing, right? I'm going to, I just need to repent, right? And be to forgive or yeah, trust and move on. And it's like, you know, no, there's a reason why you're responding this way.

KayLee Dunn 17:34

And to be fair, there's several reasons for that. One is we have a natural inclination as a part of our survival system and also part of our socialized system to self-attribute, so negative self-attribution attribution. So, or in other words, take, say, okay, I can't control that, right? I can't control him. And this is all kind of unconscious. It's not like we make a conscious choice to think this, but it's like, I can't control him. But there's some safety in saying, well, I can control me, and I do look crazy. And all of these helpers are kind of or or well-meaning friends and family, or not so well-meaning people are they are telling me, well, you are behaving in such and such a way. So maybe that's why he keeps blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or she keeps whatever. And so we have a socialized system that's pointing fingers at the betrayed partner historically. And then we also have this like, well, that actually does feel kind of like a peat, like a locus of control. Like, well, I can't control him and I can control me. So I am going to just blame myself for the betrayal. Like it's a really short walk from taking responsibility for myself and taking responsibility for how I'm causing another person to do something, which we can't do, right? But but it's not a very big jump, especially when we're traumatized and stressed out and our nervous system is taxed. And if we can just cope a little bit and feel a little bit of relief, it makes sense why why we do that, you know. Yeah, we're often telling betrayed partners like, don't, don't blame yourself. But it's like, but the whole system is set up for them to blame themselves, so that makes sense too.

Tara McCausland 19:21

You know, lots of thoughts and in that that we can go off and we could go on that tangent for sure. Yeah, we don't want to excuse ourselves. And I appreciate that you said we're we're built to respond to this primal level threat, which is what we feel when we've been betrayed. But this, we were not built to respond like this forever. Yeah. So I think as as you talked about first, we have to have a level of awareness, and that starts with education, right? That oh, I'm learning about how I am built physiologically. Yeah. And this isn't just about me having an anger issue, but also self-compassion. Okay, this is a real challenge in my life, and I want to accept that that it's it's affected me on every level mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually. Yeah. Therefore, what? How am I now going to care for myself and get the support that I need so I can move outside of this chaos, which is betrayal trauma, right? So what next?

Practical Steps for Healing and Self-Education

Harnessing Your Inner Survivor Skills

Connecting with Higher Power and Intuition

KayLee Dunn 20:26

What next? Exactly. Well, I think for me, when I teach this to my clients, whether that's my therapy clients when we're doing more trauma processing work or my coaching clients, where it's more education and skill building. My therapy clients do the skill building too. I always say, spend a lot of time in this self-education of learning your nervous system. It's okay. I know from personal experience, it feels like there's a big clock over your head, a big sand timer that's like, it's been three weeks since I found out. It's been a month, it's been a year, it's been two years, like you're just always counting down. Like time is just ticking so fast. And I just, I just have to figure it out right now and right now, you know. And so I understand that. And part of that is that inner survivor that's like, get to safety now, right? And it's okay to say, I'm going to just go to the university of me and really get an education on my nervous system. And I don't mean just reading books, I mean paying attention to what your body's doing and getting that education. So, and that might mean a lot of mistakes. And that's scary and hard. And sometimes it's scary and hard for clinicians, but or coaches, but that might mean you do lose your temper. And then you pause and you notice, okay, what happened? What were the steps and stages of me losing my temper? And when did I cross outside of my window of tolerance? Or what did I when did I get off the path there? And I and I felt like I lost control. Or when did I know I was unsafe and I just stayed? There. Like I was in a movie and something really uncomfortable happened in the movie, but I just became frozen and sat through an entire horrible movie and shook in my shoes. Okay, what was that about? You know, what was going on in my nervous system that didn't allow me to get up and leave? Or if I was driving down the car with my husband and I and I like screamed at him and jumped out of the car, you know, and had him pull over. You hear that story sometimes. What was going on in my nervous system and learning about that and spending time and allowing yourself to just spend time before we get to the like, can I have to do something? It's okay to just go, okay, I'm I spend a whole week, we're just learning about it. Then we spend a whole week just observing it. What are my nervous system reactions today? Because maybe five years ago you were more of what I call a fire child. That's a fight mode, a fire survivor. I like to think about it as like your superpowers. So you're fire, you're like a fire survivor if you're like go into fight mode a lot. And maybe when you first went through this, that you were huge into that, but maybe not. Some people are more water survivors, and that's where you're like, I will bend and meld and I can mesh to any situation, and even if I'm unsafe, right? Which is kind of your appease and your fawn. So where are you today? Right? Pay attention to that. You might be able to notice the past a little easier, but where are you today? Are you just collapsed? You're like, I've been doing this so long. We're on year 15, and I am so exhausted, and I have kids, and I have a whole world I have to juggle, and I'm just collapsed around this. Just notice that. Just spend time observing and then spend time pausing. So that's the next phase is learning how to know when your superpower is coming on. Like I had a client who said it's kind of like in that new Spider-Man movie where he gets the Spider-Man skills, but then he like stickies his hand to the girl's head because he can't control it, you know? Or there's other superhero movies where they get their powers and then they're just like exploding all over the place. So the next phase is harnessing your inner survivor skills. And you do that through pausing and learning about them. And what are they trying to help you do? So if you're more of a fire child like me, you might go, okay, I've got all this excess energy rather because I'm not gonna, you know, if it's an autonomic nervous response, that's gonna happen sometimes. And what am I gonna do with this energy? Am I going to scream at my children? Or am I gonna notice it? And then I might do something innocuous, like go for a run, you know, and I just go for a run and I feel better, or I might punch a punching bag, or I might take deep breaths and I might just release that energy, or I might go, actually, the situation isn't helpful, and I might need this energy to help me set a boundary, or I might need this energy to whatever. And if you're someone who's more of a freeze, like an ice type, you're like, but I'm frozen all the time. How's that good? Okay, so you're frozen, which means you have space and time, which our fire survivors don't always have. They're always like running around. It's hard to pause. Okay, so you have space and time. And by the way, you're gonna all of us have use all of these, all you know, it's not like you're only one, it's not a personality trait, it's the way our nervous system functions. But you may get into habits or patterns, or from your childhood, you might have learned, oh, yelling works, and then you just yell more, right? Your nervous system goes that path more often. But we all do all of these, and depending on the circumstance and the person we're with and the location, we might find ourselves reacting in different ways. But so then we go, okay, and I actually want to rewind a little bit and say what we want to do very first, in addition to observation and noticing and self-compassion, is have kind of, and this is really hard because when we have trauma, these parts of our brains kind of shut down. But really consider gently creating a vision for ourselves. Like, what do I don't like what's happening now in my my marriage or in my life, because sometimes we just don't have any control if the part if the betrayer is not stopping. But saying, like, what do I want my life to look like? Who do I want to be? How do I want to respond in the short term and then even like five years out? Because we need to have a why, or our inner survivor is gonna be like, I don't care, I'm gonna blow burn the house down. But if we can say, hey, thank you, inner survivor, thank you, and remember how this is how we want to be. Remember how, like, I love that I've got all this energy, but I really want it shifted over here. We have to kind of have a why for that that's not centered on anybody else. And that's hard to do, especially if you grew up in a culture or or an area or based on your gender roles or whatever, that kind of says that you shouldn't have your own story. You shouldn't be the main character of your own story. You're basically like the side character for this hero's journey. So we have to be able to also own that, like, okay, who do I want to be? What story do I want to live? So that there's a why in those moments. But I'm kind of getting a little bit deep there. But so, so ultimately you're you're gonna be pausing, you're going to be then then plugging into a lot of those skills and tools, especially if you're a 12-stepper. This middle zone, the intuitive part, that is a that is something I call it intuitive, but it's also higher power connection, right? So it's connecting to your your inner sage, the the inner, your spirit, the this the you that's been you since you came here to earth and will be you forever, whatever that you is for you, depending on your belief systems. That you, and then also a higher power that you might have, and connecting there is so essential. And you may not get that in therapy, because therapy is not meant to be a substitution for religion, or you know, there might be some therapies that can support spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction, and that can be really beneficial, especially if there's a lot of things you've been taught that are have have felt really betraying, or you've had systemic betrayals happen to you within religion, that can be really good. But it's not a substitute for that relationship with yourself and that relationship with the universe or a higher power or God or whatever that is for you. And so that's actually a really important key phase. And if you can tolerate 12-step, and depending on your stage and phase and where you're at, that can be a really great place to re find that higher power and that relationship with yourself and with a higher power. And so that would be your next key. And then you're plugging into what you know there, right? So you're you're noticing your nervous system reactions, you're observing them. That tends to soften half of it because your inner survivor is like, thanks for noticing me. Thanks for not hating me. Then you're using those nervous system skills like deep breathing and journaling and connecting and connecting in a group, which is just a beautiful, beautiful way to regulate our nervous system and educating yourself, like you said, and yoga and all the things you know, you hear people tell you to do all the time, and you're like, why? I guess I was. And then you're able to kind of harness the parts of your nervous system that you can use, soften the parts that might be getting in the way of you kind of really being the self you want to be, and then you're and then you're tapping into your your intuition to know what to do next. And that's the beauty of connecting with a higher power and connecting with self is that so often people reach out to me and understandably I did the same thing, I did the same thing, and kind of say, well, what boundaries should I set that's gonna fix all of my problems, right? And boundaries are an important skill set. We're not gonna talk about that very much today, because that's a whole other lesson. But we've we've done quite a bit of talking about it. And you've probably done a lot of that. Yeah. But strategic decision making is essential after betrayal to make these strategic decisions for your safety, for your healing, for your life, right? But if you don't bookend that with befriending your inner survivor and then stepping into the inner sage or the inner wisdom as well as a higher power, how are you gonna know what boundaries to set? Because no one else is living your life. No one else is living your life. And so, yeah, you can look, there's great books on boundaries, there's okay books on boundaries, and there's big lists of things for betrayed partners. Try this, try this, try this. And of course, I offer suggestions to my clients because you're coming from nothing, like you can't just make up something from nothing. But at the end of the day, what you need, and then what action you need to take if if you're not being respected, if your invitations are not being respected, you know, that act of integrity reflects back again to your connection with your higher power and your connection with yourself. And so I know that's taking a step in away from the nervous system stuff, but I think that that's a really important key that SA Lifeline provides that you may not find other places.

Understanding Urgency and the Nervous System

Tara McCausland 31:19

Yeah. Wow, KayLee. Oh, I've been taking like notes and trying to keep up. This is really, really good stuff. And I want to just rewind. So I really like that you had mentioned that you felt like this this ticking clock, like I have to be on a certain timeline, maybe on a healing timeline. Yeah, we know that this is going to take a long time to be able to work through a lot of this stuff. Yeah. And so I just appreciated that comment that I think we feel that oftentimes, like this pressure or this urgency to move through the healing process, but to be able to just even allow ourselves to recognize no, I'm going to be here where my feet are and just start with this observing, yeah, and giving myself permission to pause and just be. And I think as women who have struggled with betrayal trauma, there's just something I feel like that's innate in women more so than in men, where they feel just compelled to do and be better faster, right? And they put a lot of pressure on themselves. And I think that's one of the, and I know depending on where we're at in our journey, we don't like this, but that's one of the gifts or the blessings of recovery if we can recognize that that we are okay where we are at as we are, if we can allow ourselves to accept that. I mean, not that we want to stay in trauma, right, in chaos, but it's okay to spend some time just being and observing and learning.

KayLee Dunn 33:00

Yeah. And I think when it comes to that clock, a big part of that urgency is our nervous system, right? And it can also be psychological and things like that, and some innateness and just a striving for for progress and growth and things like that, that I think is beautiful that you shared. But the part of it that may feel a little bit out of control, like I can't calm down, I can't slow down, maybe nervous system. And you use the same skills. So you go, yeah, if there was a tiger in my house or a lion in my house, I would feel like I have to deal with the lion. Right. Right. I have to move, I have to act. Or another analogy is if you're on a cruise ship and there's a hole in it, you're like, I have to fill the hole. Like we can't just ignore it. The boat is sinking. But giving ourselves time to go, okay, but if I just run around trying to plug the hole with everything I can find, is that going to lead to long-term success? Or if I just jump out of the boat really fast because I don't want to, I don't want to be in a sinking boat. Like long term, you might be like, wow, I'm glad I jumped out of that boat because later it sunk and everyone died, right? Good. But also you could jump out of the boat and there's sharks in there, or there's, you know, like you don't have a life rafter food. So it's okay to say, thank you, urgency. I see you. Thanks for letting me know this is a big deal. And of course, you don't talk like that to yourself, who does? But you know what I mean? The concept of thanks for letting me know this is a big deal and not to forget about it. I'm not gonna forget a pinky promise. I would say pinky promise yourself, I'm not gonna forget about betrayal. Even if I take a little break from it, even if I take a take five deep breaths and I feel a little calm, I promise that's not me forgetting about it. And you can remind yourself that, and it can help. It doesn't make it go away because it's a nervous system response, but it kind of gives you maybe somewhere to put that and to say, oh, that's what this is. And remind yourself sometimes observing and noticing is doing something, it's not doing nothing, it is doing something, yeah. It's it's prepare, it's preparation, and preparation is two-thirds of the work when it comes to healing after betrayal.

Mindfulness and Meditation

Tara McCausland 35:04

Yeah. And I this just popped in my mind. I think that's recognizing that observing and pausing isn't doing nothing, like this whole movement of mindfulness, right? That's so big right now, I do appreciate it because I know in this just loud, constantly moving society that we're living in, we don't stop and pause and just like check in with ourselves very often. And so mindfulness is a really good practice to have. But on a personal note, some years ago, when I was trying to figure out what was kind of missing in my spiritual connection and my progression in that regard, you know, I was doing some, I was praying about what I needed to be doing differently. And I was just gobsmacked when the answer was you need to learn how to meditate. And I was like, huh, that kind of came out of left fill for me. Like that wasn't I was not thinking that. Yeah, and it wasn't you need to be more humble or you know, more. It's like, no, you need to learn how to pause, Tara, and like spend time with me and and with yourself. And it was humbling because that's hard for me. I am a doer. Yeah, um, and so I personally see so much value and have continued to try and learn to be more present and to find value in the pause, yeah. Not and not feel like I have to just always be checking off the list.

KayLee Dunn 36:33

When I worked with Rill, there's probably like 10 phrases that she would say all the time that are like nailed into my head. And one of them is God is a present moment God. She would always say that. I don't know if you've heard her say that a bunch of times, but she'd always say, God is a present moment God. So I love that when you said that, that's what popped into my head was yeah, when we're pausing, we are being with what is, which is where God is standing in that if if you have that belief system, like that that's where we can commune is in the pause. Uh, and she'd usually say it in times I didn't want to hear it, because I would be like, Well, what about next week when I'm stressed out? She's like, Yeah, God's not worried about next week. And I'm like, Well, I want him to be.

Safety and Stabilization in Healing

Tara McCausland 37:12

Yeah, seriously. And knowing, knowing you, I could I could see you saying that, like, yeah, we went, we got our plan. What are we doing here? So another thought that that came to me, because in our one of our previous episodes, talking to your friend Amanda Christensen, you were talking all about safety and stabilization, how that's really the first stage of healing, right? Yeah for a betrayer and a betrayed partner, right? Can we start this process in safety and stabilization? Or are we going to be more in the grief and mourning stage when we can actually really do this work?

KayLee Dunn 37:46

I think that this work is everywhere through every phase of recovery. It's going to maybe look a little different. And I think a lot of people are doing it, they're just not observing it, right? So you're having the nervous system reactions right at the beginning. And absolutely, I think observing yourself and your partner through that process with this lens can be very healing for both of you, actually. And it is not something that I say this really delicately because not everyone is going to be in a position where their partner is fully safe with them. And so what I don't want people to hear is notice the betrayer and how he's having this nervous system reaction and allow that to change what boundaries you set. That is not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is when we observe our partner, whichever partner they are, and we observe them and we recognize their nervous system, it can be extremely meaningful. It can lend us to more empathy that leads us towards softening, but it also can lead us towards just a better understanding of what we're dealing with. And especially if you're the betrayed partner and you're trying to decide, should I stay? Should I go? What am I going to do? And you're in that space. If we can be a scientist and not get in the middle of our experiment, right? And we can be pausing and observing ourselves, and also pausing and observing our partner, we can get all kinds of information. And then when we're tapping into our intuition around this person's intention, this person's capacity, this person's willingness, and again, I'm talking from the betrayed partner, observing the betrayer, the person who betrayed, that you can actually gain a lot of safety out of that and kind of noticing what's going on there. Because while our inner survivor does do things to help keep us safe by helping us disconnect and create space, it's not so good at like long-term judgment. It's not so good at even really knowing what's how I'm being cheated, like, right? Like we have this part of self that knows I was cheated or something's not fair, but we may not always know what that is. We need our prefrontal cortex on board to do that. And if we're completely the phrase they usually use is hijacked, like if we're completely in our nervous system, it's hard sometimes to do that. So but I absolutely think this has an important place. The first phases of it, especially in really observing ourselves and observing our partner and getting to know our nervous system and looking through that lens. Yeah. It can slow it, it'll slow everything down, which then can create more safety and stabilization.

Tara McCausland 40:33

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We hope that we are able to do this early on, and education will help us understand why and how we can move forward even days after discovery. If we've got someone to help us understand some of those basic principles. A lot of us don't have that.

KayLee Dunn 40:53

Most people won't, right? Most people will find this podcast a long time later, and that's okay. And you can go look back and observe, because a lot of times we'll look back and observe ourselves in the first few weeks and go, what was I thinking? How did I do that? Why did I do that? Why did I ignore that? Or why did I get so angry and aggressive? Or why did I tell him everything? Or why didn't I tell him everything? Right. Whatever that is. And looking back with an eye of compassion and like, oh, that's why I was okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Can be beneficial. So most people probably won't have this information the day they find out because this isn't taught in like, you know, high school or anything, or you know, we don't really learn this stuff. When your partner betrays you and your nervous system goes exactly. Exactly. Nobody knew this. I didn't know this. I've been doing this for 20 years. I didn't know this. So yeah, I mean, I've known it for a while, but not the early years. So totally, totally.

Tara McCausland 41:50

Well, so I would actually love for you to perhaps give an example because you talked about observing yourself and observing your partner, whether you're the betrayer or the betrayed. And that can be healing and informative and help in a lot of ways, right? Um, but if you can walk us through an example of a betraying partner responding to their hurting spouse when they see they see that they're in trauma, they see that they're triggered and kind of going into that lizard brain a little bit. How can a betraying partner respond in a helpful way?

The Importance of Community and Support

KayLee Dunn 42:27

Yeah. So I think the number one thing they can do is learn how to regulate their own nervous systems because what will happen often is let's say, let's say he's on his phone playing Tetris, okay? Just Tetris, something really innocuous. And there's no history of Tetris being a trigger. So he's just playing Tetris, it's fine. And then she walks in the room and he thinks, oh, my wife's here. I'm gonna tune to her. I'm just gonna do like the best case scenario, right? My wife's here, and he sets his phone down face down. And that triggers due to past events with phone usage and hiding and lying and deception, a primal trigger for her. Okay. So now she her nervous system is dysregulated. She's in an she's in a survival state. So to you, that could look a whole host of different things. This could mean someone who just shuts down and walks away, right? That might be more of an avoidant, like a wind survivor. It's just like, no, I'm not dealing with this. It could be like, why did you turn your phone over? An aggressive attack, right? It could be like, oh my gosh, we're never getting over this. You're this is just always gonna be horrible, right? Like a collapse. It could be a total paralysis, just like this deer in the headlights look, and she just stares at you. And what I've or it can be like, hey, sweetheart, what are you looking at on your phone? And like she's gonna be really nice because she's trying to be soft, because she's trying to her water has kicked in and she's seeking safety. She's like, I'm gonna do this in a really gentle way. And and anyway, there's lots of different ways she might respond. But of all of these ways, you know you're in trouble, and you're like, Your like alarm goes off. I'm in trouble. And it's probably remembering times in the past that were really ugly in the relationship due to her trauma and what you've done. Or it might remind you of your own shame of betrayal that you're still maybe working through. And you go into full fight or flight yourself, and then you get defensive, and you're like, it's literally Tetris, right? Your inner fire comes out. Or well, or you're like, we're not talking about this. I'm dealing, I'm done dealing with you and your and your trauma. I'm done dealing with you, right? Because your inner survivor comes out. Or you know, you get frozen, and my husband would just be like staring at me. He didn't know what to do, he'd just be totally paralyzed and he's just staring, and I'm like dying inside, like, say something, do something. And he's like staring. We we have this joke, he and I, because you know, we're a long time past and not past this, but through this, I should say. And he's like, Can you hear me blinking? Because he would get such a bad nervous system response that like his eyes would get super dry, and he would just be like staring and like blinking, and you could literally hear them, and I'd be like, I can hear you blinking. So we always joke about that. He's like, Can you hear me blinking? Now we now we can joke about it, but it was so horrible at the time. I was like so angry and so hurt because I'm like, you don't get to go into a fight or flight, you're the one that caused this, you know. So you might have all these, or your inner like manipulator might come in that's like, oh, honey, schmoozy schmooze, and you're just gonna use all your manipulative tricks of your tool bag to get out of trouble. Rutro, you're not supposed to do that, right? Not good. That's not in recovery behavior, or you might collapse and just be depressed and like, oh, I'm just gonna might as well just not live and all that sort of stuff. So the best thing you can do is learn about your own nervous system and choose to take rigorous accountability for it so that when she's dysregulated, due to what you have done to her, you can take a deep breath. And again, this isn't gonna happen at the beginning stages, right? But this is where you're headed. You're gonna regulate yourself. You might even have to say, sweetheart, I am so sorry. And you're gonna have a conversation ahead of time about this. I need to go get regulated so I can be here for you. And you go to the other, you go to the bathroom and you put cold water on like a vet, like a war vet, and you put cold water on the back of your neck, and you put ice packs on your on your chest, and you take some deep breaths because you've been doing your Winhof method or whatever you use to regulate, and you come back out and you're like, all right, I'm here for it. And you're regulated, and you're gonna have all of that really strong energy of like, I'm gonna be here for it. And probably in that pause, she softened a little, and hopefully, maybe not, depends on where she's at. And then she might be able to then share with you what's what's going on, what her trigger was, and you can reassure her. And you can also say things like, you know, don't use this to manipulate, please, but I'll tell you. You say things like, I understand why you're triggered because of what I've done to you, because I lied to you, because I hid my phone, it makes sense to me, right? But you have to be regulated to be able to say that from a really non-manipulative place. Because if you're dysregulated and you're just trying to make it go away so that you don't feel dysregulated anymore, you're just doing more abuse, honestly, more manipulation and more lying. And you don't want to be doing that, I'm guessing. You're trying not to do that. And so finding learning how to hold space, and you might not be able to right away. So if you have your own PTSD, which a lot of people do who have sexual addictions, if you have your own childhood wounds, if you have like an aggressive parent, or if you had an avoidant parent, and then you watch your wife run out of the room, that little part of you is watching your mom run out of the room. So now you're a little kid and you're not in a place to support her. So you might need to go get some therapy. If you have mental illnesses from genetics or from life hardships, you might need to get that treated so that you can be the safe space for her. And for the betrayed partner, if you have a husband or partner, I guess I should say, because it could be gender, either way, who's not safe for you, who he gets super disregarded, they get super dysregulated when you're hurting and when you're crying, and they're all over the map, you may need to find somebody else that you can co-regulate with, right? So that's where your sponsor comes in handy. You're, you know, when you when you can get to a therapist, that would be great. But to find other people and community to co-regulate with if he can't, if they can't, is really important. Was that a good answer? Did that make sense?

Tara McCausland 49:02

That was fantastic. Okay. That was fantastic. And I'm sure that people who are they may not have to be early on in this process, but it's like, whoa, like I have to be really intentional about this in order to get to this.

KayLee Dunn 49:16

You gotta slow it down. Yes. And it takes a lot of time, right? My husband and I are in a place where he can say, Am I blinking too loud? Like he can make a joke mid-argument, and I'm like, I don't know. Are you just are you? And he's like, No, I'm here. I'm like, okay, I'm here too, right? And we can check in. But he also stopped betraying 20 years ago. And you know, like a lot of safety has been and trust has been built, and a lot of other things that may not be there for you yet, right? If they're still acting out, if they're not in long-term recovery, if they're not doing all the things like going to meetings every single week, if they're not checking in every single day, if they're not going to therapy and doing all, you know, and I guess I'm speaking to the betrayed partner, yeah, you're not going to feel safe yet. And that's okay. Hopefully you hear that too, right? Yeah. Um, there has to be trustworthy actions and behaviors ongoing for your nervous system to be able to have reparative experiences to know that you're safe. And so if that's not happening, then you're gonna keep getting stressed out.

Tara McCausland 50:18

Right, right. Well, and I really appreciate that you put a plug in for 12-step and for sponsorship. Um, because uh for a lot of us, we won't have we're hopeful that the coupleship will be healing kind of in tandem, right? Yeah. Um, but oftentimes one person will lag behind and the other might make more progress. And I don't know, we ebb and flow, right? In our determination to do this work. Yeah. And sometimes people stay in marriages for a long time before their partner decides to do the work, too. So getting into community, finding a good sponsor is so critical. Yeah. Because we know that that's such an important part of our healing, that co-regulation. Yeah.

KayLee Dunn 51:03

And they may not. I mean, that's just a reality, too, is that one partner or the other, whether it's the betrayed or the betrayer, may choose not to do the work to heal. Right. And unfortunately, that's one of the major reasons we put we put our own brakes on, like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to move forward because what if they don't? And that's scary and hard. But for our own physical health and our mental health, that moving forward in our recovery is important, even if our partner's lagging behind. Because while our body is made to do this, while our nervous system is made to do this, if there's a lion in the camp one time, right? Or if you know we we come upon a stream full of alligators or whatever the cave woman's life may be like, the evolved species we came from, it's not meant to do it every day, all day. And while it kind of feels that way the first year or two, it's not meant to do it all day, every day. And it will take a toll on your physical health, if not your and your mental health as well. And so it is important. It's not something to say, well, I guess you know, it's a minor survivor, so I can just keep keep on surviving and stay dysregulated all the time. We know that that leads to so many health concerns over the long term, right? We're not meant to live there. We're meant to have a hard thing and we survive, and then we can rest and digest and connect and tend and be friend and all of those good things. And so even if you do have a partner who sadly is really having a hard time waking up to all of this or choosing not to, or doesn't want to, or whatever, you have to keep working your own, your own recovery and your own healing journey because your long-term health depends on it, honestly.

Tara McCausland 52:57

Yeah, oh yeah. And in those cases, I mean, it's interesting. I have in my own story, my parents, you know, they stayed together, and no one would have blamed my mom if she called it quits years and years before his third disclosure. And so I I I see examples where people didn't choose recovery for decades and they're now in recovery and thriving. And I think that's where that connection with the God of Rounders School is so critical that we we have the opportunity to to make boundaries and and make choices that sometimes look like, well, you're not coming along, so it looks like we're done.

KayLee Dunn 53:36

Well, and that's why we need to respect everyone's choices as well. You know, when I first came into this, I did have this kind of feeling of like, well, if he's not getting into recovery and he's never gonna get into recovery, then you should leave.

Tara McCausland 53:50

Yeah.

KayLee Dunn 53:50

And that's just a should, you know, and I kind of that was part of my immaturity and not meeting enough people and hearing enough stories. And then I've just met enough people who have made ways to be healthy and safe with their physical bodies and because they're aware and they're awake to the reality of their life, but for their own particular reasons, whether that's due to a connection with a higher power, whether that's due to just logistics, you know, they do stay for longer and he doesn't get into recovery ever. Or he does 20 years later, right? There's so many different stories, and so that's why we respect every person's ability to connect with their higher power and connect with their self and know that there's no right or wrong. After you've been betrayed, there's no right or wrong. Like you didn't ask for this, you didn't cause this, nothing you did got you into this, nothing your childhood did made you get betrayed. A person betrayed you, right? And so you get to decide what you want to do with that, and nobody else gets to tell you what that timing looks like or how it should look.

Final Thoughts and Resources

Tara McCausland 54:54

Yeah, yeah, so good. And as Rill would say, you always have choice, exactly, always have choice, and you can always choose your own recovery. So so good. This has been so good, KayLee. I've really been trying hard to keep up, and I'm not sure how well I did, but I think for our listeners, there was there was a wealth of information here that is so helpful. So before I ask the final question, because I know our time is up. Oh, you're okay. If they want to find you and connect with you, where's the best place to do that?

KayLee Dunn 55:23

That is a great question. So I have a social media account on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook. So you can follow me there. It's hey k at hey kayle dunn. It's probably the easiest place, whichever one of those you are on, you can follow me there. And then I do have a free Facebook group. It's quite large, it's moderated by trained specialized coaches, but it is definitely an awake space. So, what I mean by that is there's a lot of resources tagged in the featured section that you can use to learn more and grow. And you can also come to that space and connect with other people who are experiencing men and women. It's called humans navigating betrayal who've experienced betrayal. But it is a little messy in the sense that it's people waking up to betrayal, right? And so there's big feelings and there's uh big emotions, and so it's not for everyone. It might be triggering, it might not be the right time for you to be connecting in that way, especially if you already have a support group in a 12-step group that's live and a little more intimate and things like that. But that is a place that's free for those who aren't quite ready for 12-step or in a place where they want to do that for whatever reason. So they can hop on there and that's for free. And then if you're interested in kind of my offerings, I have just go to my website, kayelydunn.com, and I have a free conference that I do every year that'll be in September. Rill spoke at that last year or two years ago. It was awesome. And I have a retreat that's coming up, and I have a coaching program and therapy and all the things. So all sorts of you can just get on there and poke around and see what fits for you.

Tara McCausland 57:07

Busy girl, my goodness. Yeah. Well, so before I let you go, we always ask the final same final question, which is what would you tell someone that's new to this? It's just stepping in onto this path of recovery. And what would you tell the old timer that's been doing this for a while?

KayLee Dunn 57:22

So the new timer, I would say the brand new, I would say, I am well, I guess to both. I'd just say, I am so sorry that you're having to go through this. Um, again, you're not crazy. Nothing you did caused this. This is someone else's choice that caused this. And there is hope. There's hope for healing and growth and a happy normal life. It won't always feel, as Rill would say, like you're paddling at the edge of a waterfall. It won't always feel that way. It will, it can get better. And there today, there are so many people who are finally talking about this, not societally yet, but in these places we meet and connect and you're not alone. There are others who are going through it sadly, but also others who are along the path that can help you forward. You're you're just not alone. And for the old timers, I mean, I'd say the same sentiments because isn't betrayal where you just kind of feel like you're at square one some days. You're like, I've been doing this 20 years, but I feel like it's day one. And so I would say, keep going, keep connecting, and find the next right answer. So that's a phrase that I use that is kind of borrowed from a National Geographic photographer. But find the next right answer means if it's not working right now, that doesn't mean it'll never work. So if 12-step is just not the puzzle piece that's fitting for you or the therapist you're working with, give it a try. Give it the old college try. But if it's not fitting, that doesn't mean there's no hope and healing left. It just means maybe you haven't found the next right thing yet. And again, there are so many more therapists and coaches and just people who have gone through this who are writing books and sponsors and quietly in the shadows doing all this great work. So keep looking because that right book, like I threw the first three books in the garbage. And let me tell you, there were only like three books. Okay. Like back in 2006 when I went through this, there were only like three books. And the first one I threw right in the trash. So it's okay if you hear this today and you're like, I hated every word that lady said. That's okay. I'm not mad about that. I'm not offended about that. Find the next right answer for you because it's out there and you deserve a happy, healthy life. And you're gonna find it. But you got to keep looking. You know, you can sit on the path and cry a while. I do that, did that sometimes, and you can pause for a while and just say, I'm just gonna go pretend this isn't real for a while. You could do that too, but then get back on the path and keep keep looking because you'll you'll find it. Every human being is different, and so it's sometimes finding that right next right answer.

Tara McCausland 1:00:04

I was gonna say, you stole that from Frozen, right? But I like the National Geographic.

KayLee Dunn 1:00:08

It oh, yeah, the next right step is from Frozen. I love Frozen 2. Am I weird that I love Frozen 2? It's one of my favorite movies.

Tara McCausland 1:00:16

I actually really enjoy it as well. That's so good. Thank you so much, KayLee. This has been so good, and and thank you for all the work that you have done and continue to do to bless the lives of those that are suffering. So keep up the good work and hope to talk to you again soon. Absolutely. Thank you. See ya. Thanks.

Introduction 1:00:35

Thanks for joining us. We invite you to subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss new episodes. And while you're at it, will you please leave us a five-star rating and review to help us spread the good news that healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma is possible. We invite individuals who are struggling to join our virtual or in-person trauma-sensitive 12-step meetings. Meeting times and locations can be found at sal 12step.org. You can find quality education at SALifeline.org, and we hope that you will follow us on Instagram and Facebook. SA Lifeline is a 501c3 nonprofit organization, and we welcome donations.