Childcare Regulation in the US with PhD Fellow Anna Claire Flowers

Anna Claire Flowers, PhD fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, discusses her report that ranks child care regulations in the United States. She shares how regulations affect not only child care providers, but child care customers as well. Flowers also delves into the impacts of child care regulations, including the effects on state fertility rates. Listen to our latest Talkin’ SaaS podcast episode.

GL Solutions helps governments run, grow and adapt. For more information about GL Solutions and our modernization service for regulatory agencies, visit us on the web at www.glsolutions.com. Or connect with us via Facebook, X or LinkedIn. Reach our host, Sam Hardin, at hardin@glsolutions.com. We look forward to hearing from you.

Transcript

Sam Hardin: 0:00

Hello everybody. Welcome to the GL solutions talking SaaS Podcast. Today I'm really excited. We have Anna Claire flowers with us. By the way, Anna, your name is amazing. We've all been talking about it here. We love it, so go ahead and introduce yourself. What you've been focusing on, and some of your studies.

Anna Claire Flowers: 0:30

Definitely. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And yeah, my name is Anna Claire Flowers. Thanks for the compliment. I am a PhD fellow with the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, and the work that we've been doing on child care regulation is in affiliation with the Knee Regulatory Research Center that's based out of West Virginia University. Some of your listeners might know Ed Timmons. So I'm in the dissertation stage my PhD, and really interested in different economic policies which affect family decision making, generally, such as marriage or having kids, which is pretty much all economic policies, actually. We can get into the kind of the fertility aspect of the regulatory space later on, which is interesting. But as far as my experience with child care regulation, it's just something I've been interested in and, you know, something that people are concerned about and and so we've been trying to make sense of it.

Sam Hardin: 1:31

Absolutley. Well, for those listening, we're specifically going to be talking today about the the child care regulation index for the United States that you recently put out, and it's the first edition. So that's exciting. But let's so how does that come about? Like? Because I know there's a couple people that worked on this. Do you guys, so obviously you're interested in it. It must be what you're studying and looking at for your dissertation, as you mentioned. But do you guys kind of, like, come together and say, Hey, this is something we're interested in. Maybe we should do some more research around this and put this out. Like, how does that, you know, forgive me for my ignorance, but like how does that all come together.

Anna Claire Flowers: 2:17

How does it come together? That's a great question. Yeah. So, right. So I became interested, kind of in childcare regulation as a case study of different concepts I was learning about in school, like entrepreneurship, barriers to entry, that kind of thing. And part of my dissertation is talking about regulation and entrepreneurship, specifically in the US childcare market. And that just positioned me to really think through the mechanisms of how child care regulations affect decisions, whether it's on the provider side, you know, how do I know? You know, entrepreneurs are following, you know, profit wherever they go, right? So they're choosing to put their resources and time and energy into some industry versus another, and then also on the customer side, you know, how are we choosing to, you know, allocate resources and so, so, so the entrepreneurship piece was, was really my, my background thinking about sort of the mechanisms there that could where regulation, you know, not only has just a simple set of intended effects, but also some unintended ones, which we know. So then the team, as you ask, how does this come together? It's made up of Clara Piano, Vincent Geloso, Lyman Stone and myself. And these are all Clara and Vincent are also PhD economists here at George Mason and also at University of Mississippi. And then Lyman Stone is a demographer, and his background is more on this fertility gap data, the kind of a research group called demographic intelligence, that helped us out a lot. So we all had different pieces of the puzzle, right? So Vincent had worked on the specific sort of data collection for the index. Clara was interested in, you know, this question of, how is the index affecting family decisions, or how the regulations affecting family decisions and family life. And then I kind of had this, you know, this theoretical input where it's like, okay, I can help out with the index. But also I love thinking about, you know, how these numbers are actually playing out in real life and affecting, like I said, the provider side and the customer side. So anytime there's a kind of a question, you have to think about the right team to put together and, and we've got a really good one. So that's been fun.

Sam Hardin: 4:46

Yeah, absolutely. So did you guys know each other before this, like, through your studies or work?

Anna Claire Flowers: 4:51

Yeah, yeah. So we, we are sort of, yeah. I mean, it's kind of, it's kind of a, a small world, for sure, down to it is. Far as people who are working on these topics. And obviously one of my colleagues at George Mason is on the team so and then, yeah, it's just sort of a research community, I would say, where it's like, you kind of know who to call whenever you have a certain question. Yeah, trying to get to the bottom of.

Sam Hardin: 5:18

That makes total sense. And I, and I appreciate this, this index, because, you know, one of the things I think about is like, we all put these regulatory bodies. All of us can kind of agree on, like, yes, we need to regulate some factions of our society, right? And but very not often enough. I guess, from my perspective, are we analyzing the effects on the constituents, or, you know, the end users, or even, in this case, the entrepreneurs, as you mentioned, like the ones that are going out and creating these childcare facilities in this particular aspect. And you know, I'm big on data. I like looking at data. What is it saying? You know, let's, let's, let's follow the analytics. And a lot of times you just don't see information like this out there. And so I appreciate you guys doing this work, and I appreciate, I know it probably took a lot of hard work on all of your guys's side. And so, you know, just, know, I just really appreciate it. And it's, it's, it's interesting to look at from from multiple different perspectives. You know, as I was reading the index, I'm, you know, there's one side of me that's now a father that I'm reading it. I'm like, Okay, this is, this is interesting information, because I'm going through some of these decisions right now in my personal life, and then also from from a work perspective, it's interesting to me, because I'm in the regulatory space, as far as you know, software and so like, from multiple different angles and perspectives, I'm like, Wow, I'm so interested in the work that you guys are doing and what You put forth, so, just

Anna Claire Flowers: 7:01

Right. And so, yeah, and you're, you're seeing the variation too, right? Of like, Yeah, it's crazy that you know, part of why it's, I'm sure what you guys do is sort of trying to implement these things effectively. And that's a whole other side of the story. You know, is how you know, how effective? You know, are these regulations even being enacted and enforced. And that's, that's one part of it. But even just looking at the index, you know, it's, it's made to show and visualize just the variation across states, you know. So we've got this, you know, Federalist kind of system, where you've got block grants coming in from the federal, you know, government, and then the states get to decide, sort of how they allocate that money. You know, whether they how and whether they subsidize childcare providers and and then they also have a lot of authority over, you know, the actual, you know, the actual regulations on, on whether it's group size or staff ratios, or the qualifications that a, you know, childcare, preschool teacher would have to have in that in that classroom. So whenever you look at it as sort of this span of, wow, there's, there's some states that are doing this really minimally, and some states that are, you know, have these really, really tight goals for, like, the quality of childcare that they're going to have throughout their state. It's amazing to see the variation and to think about how that might affect people's lives.

Sam Hardin: 8:31

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to, definitely want to touch on that in just a minute, because that was one of the biggest things that stood out to me. But let's talk about a little bit, just, just for the listeners here, of like, how this research was conducted. You know, some of the questions I had, and you mentioned it in the index, but just, you know, some of the age groups that were taken into consideration, how the data was gathered and compiled, like, kind of what that process was like. Just so we give people a background of like, where did this data come from?

Anna Claire Flowers: 9:01

Yeah, so it's interesting. It's actually pretty available, you know, for for those who are willing to dig through it. So, for example, I live in Virginia right now, and I can pull up standards for licensed child day centers. It's 111 page PDF document, great for me, but, but it, you know, and it's, it's got, you know, all the the every detail, from you know, square footage requirements down to the types of, you know, vitamins and the nutritious snacks that, you know, the kids need to be getting and that kind of thing, and you know, they've got to be washing their hands with warm water. So I appreciate the attention to detail we we pretty much looked for standards and regulations that each state pretty much had some each. Had something on each of these categories that we look at, right? So we've got staff to child ratios. So that's, yep, you know, pretty self explanatory. Then group size. So even if you had multiple staff, like, how many children could be, sort of, like, in the same classroom at the same time. And both of those metrics right there, the staff, child ratios and the group size, we pretty much have, we have really good data on those. It's down to six months, nine months, 18 months, and then like all the way up to, like, 3,4,5, years. There's, there's these discretionary different requirements for each of those age groups. And so, yeah, when we're constructing the index, we basically say, Okay, what's the, you know, what's the group size for this state, and how does it compare if we're, if we're sort of just trying to find, like, a little index value, it's like, we take, you know, say, a group size of Yeah, or a staff child ratio of, like six, we subtract that from the minimum that we see across the 50 states, and then we divide that by sort of the variation, so max minus min, and see just like, how is this stacking up against the overall variation, And where is it falling in the overall variation. So that's how we we get that index value to be able to compare what one state is doing compared to sort of the the maximum and minimum regulations on that one particular area. And then we just kind of add up all those different variables. So it ends up being something like 27 variables by the time you add all the different age groups and the four main areas that we cover. The other two I haven't gone into much yet, are the annual required training hours, anything from like nothing to a pretty intensive, you know, you have to have, you know, 60 hours or something of training before you can qualify, you know, to be a teacher, and then also minimum educational requirements. And so there's, we sort of had to put that into our own sort of like scale. So the way we coded, it's like some states are a one they had, they require less than a high school diploma or GED, you know, to work in childcare. And then, you know, the the sort of middle is like you have the GED and you have some credits in, you know, early childcare education. And then the highest we see, some seven and eights, is a bachelor's degree in, you know, either in an unrelated field, or then some it has to be like an early childhood education, or just education in general field. And so, like Rhode Island is one of those states where it has, you know, every preschool teacher, like, has a bachelor's bachelor's degree in early childhood education, if they're like, a lead teacher in a classroom. But some in other places, it's, you know, if you don't have your GED, you can still sort of get enough training and, like, go through the application process and still qualify. So yeah, those four areas, group size, staff-child ratios, and then educational requirements and training are, are what we were able to get data on for all of the all of the states, and just kind of figure out where each one falls in the total range of all 50.

Sam Hardin: 13:41

Gotcha okay, so you were able to say, like, each state has, has pretty good data on those four major areas. And that's, that's the way you could kind of level the playing field of data you could gather for each state and across the US, and then, and then take a look at the variations from from those here.

Anna Claire Flowers: 13:59

Yeah, exactly the providers themselves, you know, are sort of wading through these, these documents, trying to figure out how they can, you know, how they can comply, right? So, yes, it's out there. And then, you know, I assume maybe some parents like to know you like to do their own research on like the state who's not the state wants, and, yeah, to be the, be the regulator themselves, of like, oh, is my child's, you know, daycare center actually living up to this? Because, of course, it's, you know, the regulators aren't coming around every day, right? You guys can't monitor that. But so anyway, so it's out there, and you can look at your state, it's going to be something, something related to, like, the Department of Education or something like that, yeah.

Sam Hardin: 14:49

Yeah, it is, you know, I don't know that everybody, you know, everybody out there knows that this information is public. It does take a lot of fortitude. And, you know. Um, kind of determination to find this information, but it is public information, and it is out there for people to access. You know, making it easy to find is another thing. But the other thing I wanted to point on too is is, a lot of people might not know this, but it is. It can be not always, but it can be quite complicated to meet what I would call, you know, the barriers to entry for some of these childcare providers, or even just the process, you know, I see it. I'm not a I'm not a designer of software or anything, or, you know, I don't do the configuration, but I am involved in, like, what is the process to to to apply and receive a license for some of these states, we actually work with some child care facilities, regulatory bodies throughout the states. And, like, it can be quite complicated for those that don't know, as far as all the requirements that you have to meet, the information that you have to provide. And so, yeah, I could imagine from a scale like some states are going to be, you know, a lot easier. And, you know, barriers to entry are going to be a lot lower. And then some states are going to be quite complicated. As far as the, you know, I don't know if I want to say, like, hoops they have to jump through, but thing, you know, boxes they have to check to be able to yeah, yeah.

Anna Claire Flowers: 16:29

And I think it's too like, one of the ways that states are trying to enforce these standards is by having even, like, another kind of accreditation system where, you know, you can only qualify for that, that block grant funding, or those subsidies, you know, unless, if you have a certain level of accreditation, that sort of, you know, you're, you're not just licensed, you're, you're really excelling

Unknown: 16:53

Yeah, that's totally true in your paper, you kind of on all of these metrics and and that really takes the full attention. I actually have a friend who runs a child care center in Alabama, and they pride themselves on being, you know, top of the line and everything, and they really are. But it takes like, two administrators full time job, you know, to think about, okay, are we? Are we fulfilling all of our licensing requirements? Not only, but are we, you know, are we doing the best that we can to get as much government funding as possible? And it just takes a lot of time and energy that isn't, you know, directly related to caring for the kids, right? So it's, it's, you know, it there's two sides of it where, you know, you're like, Okay, this is this is incentivizing higher and higher quality. But also, you realize there are some centers that are just kind of priced out of this, this industry, because they can't afford to have that person you know, solely focusing on compliance. One other thing I think about too is the variation, not only at the state level, but within the state. So if these are, if these are standards that, you know, are passed down by kind of the the State Board of Education, or, you know, social services, different things like that that are making these decisions, especially when it comes to education levels, there can be a lot of variation between, like, an urban part of the state and a rural part of the state, right? And so, or even, like, there's, this isn't part of the index, but as I mentioned earlier, there can be, like, square footage requirements for, you know, per child, and that includes like, indoor space and also outdoor space, like a certain amount of square footage of, you know, shaded play area for each child. And I think about how if I was, you know, in New York City, how difficult that would be to, you know, to find like, I know you have to have, you also have to have your childcare facility on the first floor, if you're in New York City. So it's like prime real estate, and also some kind of outdoor playground that, you know, has state of the art, you know, playground equipment, that kind of thing. And so it's, you just realize that a lot of this stuff, it's, it's super well intended, but it it, it stacks up and and then if you're, if you're not, kind of, you know, catering to the upper classes, really, in their kids, and I know things, you got to figure out how to compromise on them. had mentioned about the shade and the square footage. And I'm like, wow, that is kind of tough, you know, here in Montana, we're just, you know, it's a lot of open space, you know, kids are kind of, you know, it's very different. And I was thinking about that, I'm like, wow, yeah, in places like New York or, you know, densely populated areas, it's like, oh, that's going to present some challenges that probably are not, are not, I. Elsewhere. But okay, so let's talk about, I, I don't want to, I don't want to say it's like, it's like, what you guys are, would it be fair? I want to make sure I'm, I'm saying this correctly, but like to be fair, like, what you kind of, it's abstracted from the data was, you guys are kind of making the point. I don't know if that's the right term, but you guys, the data is showing like the higher the barriers, so the higher the regulation drives up the cost of the services, which then can play into the decision for fertility rates. Do I have that right? So it's kind of a, kind of a, it's all connected, is kind of what the paper is saying.

Anna Claire Flowers: 20:52

No, you're exactly right, yeah. So this index is, you know, it's a, it's available for others to use when they're looking at, you know, we want, we want to dig in more to, you know, what is the relationship between these, these index scores, whether they're more or less regulatory freedom, it's kind of what we call it, and then actual quality measures. So some, you know, someone has the comparative advantage there to dig into actual, you know, quality or, you know, some kind of longitudinal study on, like, educational outcomes for the kids and things like that. So there's a lot here that we hope to be, you know, hope others will build upon. But, yeah, we we were specifically given some of our background, and just like looking at family decision making. We have this really interesting metric called the fertility gap, which is just, you know, sort of people stated fertility desires and goals, and then, you know, following them and seeing, seeing what actually happens. And that might seem weird, because obviously life happens, and you can't predict, right, but, but at the same time it's, it's, um, there's a lot of variation in in that measure, too, across the states, which is interesting. So you're like, wow, once we aggregate it that much, and we take, you know, the average of those gaps that women are expressing, and we see a lot of differences across the US states, you know, I wonder what all is at play there. And so Clara Piano and Lyman Stone, who are on the team, have already kind of established, like there is a relationship between sort of economic freedom generally, and lower fertility gaps. So you can say people you know are able to sort of achieve their family goals a little bit easier, and that could look like, you know, well, I, you know, I was able to start my own business, or I was able to, you know, find a family daycare home in my neighborhood because, you know, they, they weren't, you know, moved out of the neighborhood by by zoning or different licensing requirements. You know, it could be a million different things, but this sort of general economic freedom is something that they look they've looked at that is an index of, sort of the tax and regulatory burdens and things like that, and and it seems to just be correlated with with, yeah, people sort of achieving those family goals a little bit easier. And so we just wanted to sort of zoom in and say, okay, child care regulation seems even more relevant to those family decisions and and I think it's, it's not just it is that costs go up, which gory and Thomas 2017 have have a great paper that we're kind of building on here, But where they show just the very simple relationship between higher regulatory burdens and and costs in the childcare industry, you know, so how it can cause, you know, just high staff turnover and quality and and those, those costs just are, are very, very closely tied where not all of them are as closely tied to those quality increases. But yeah, we so we wanted to sort of build on that. And it's not just that costs go up, but you can also imagine that when childcare regulations are more intense, I guess it kind of affects the perceived costs of what it takes to raise a child. Yeah, I think, I think it's sort of a sort of environmental change where, you know if, if these are the, if these are the things that my my child's daycare center has to go through to kind of make sure that the children are safe and that they're well educated and they're well fed in these things. It really does affect, sort of the the culture of child raising, for sure. Yeah. So if you can think about just how you would kind of be like, Oh, well, if they have to do this, and what do I have to do as a parent, you know, for equality?

Sam Hardin: 24:59

Or even just, like, the amount you pay, you're like, Yeah, that makes sense because of, you know, all of these standards that are in place. So yeah, the price would be higher. I get it, you know. So that's one of the things, I think, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that, you know, as, as being a new father, I, like my my wife and I talk about is, is child care, and you know, what are we going to do with that and our decisions? It's a, it's a pretty big family decision. And, you know, I think I don't know. I don't want to, I certainly don't want to speak for everybody. But one of the things that I would be interested in knowing, too, is like, okay, the the the the increased regulation, if you will, does that always lead to greater quality? Like, is there a positive correlation there? Because, you know, I guess from if it's available and if it's there, I think all parents would say, you know, if I can ensure really good quality for my children that might be worth paying more, right? But I don't know if it always higher regulation always correlates to higher quality. I don't, I don't know, you know? But it is interesting.

Anna Claire Flowers: 26:17

Yeah, that's the Gory and Thomas work that, and there's, there's several good studies on this where, you know, without getting too much into the weeds, are sort of like, structural quality measures, which are like, alright, so if we do, you know, we do X, Y and Z, this is what we should expect. But then there's also, like, sort of the outcome quality measures. It's like, did that actually work? Or like, is that actually having an impact and and one of the things that I will say does seem to have, like, the most quality impact is sort of those training hours or training requirements. And if you think about it intuitively, it makes sense where, like, sort of regardless of someone's educational level, like I mentioned, there's this whole range for all the way from GED, or not even GED, up to bachelor's degree in early childhood education that I mean, so much of child care and, you know, and and the quality there is sort of like the way people interact with the kids, right? So, yes, probably see anytime someone else holds your daughter, you're sort of, you're sort of analyzing, you know, they're good with kids, or they're not, like, they're either comfortable, or they're not, or, you know, I would trust them, or I wouldn't. And so there's sort of the training there. No matter your educational background definitely matters. And that sort of can happen through, like, shadowing and obviously, like, there's a lot of like online, you know, opportunities for that now too, but, but in essence, like, you could have a childcare, early childhood education degree theoretically, and still not kind of have that, like, tenderness that's required, right? And so,

Sam Hardin: 27:56

oh for sure, yeah, you can. You can tell in the first like, minute when somebody is watching your child or holds them, you're like, Yeah, you know what you're doing, or, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anna Claire Flowers: 28:09

So that's, that's one of the things that I think makes a lot of sense. Like, you know, having, you know, extensive training for anyone who you know, starts working at the facility. But honestly, everything else they they really found, like, it's, it's pretty negligible, if you're going from, you know, one additional, one or two additional, you know, children in that group size, or per staff member, what they what they see, and this isn't a in the Applied Economics journal, I mean it, it's like, all showing up on cost, like, all you know. And so it's not to say that, you know, you can't improve quality, but it, it is sort of, I think, worth thinking outside the box, to be like, well, you know, what are some other ways that you know, maybe you increase, what are some other ways that you maybe increase? Like, accountability to parents, or you increase, you know, you have, you have some kind of, like, collaborative transparency, or, yeah, yeah, transparency, yeah. Rather than sort of like, Oh, we're licensed, like, no one needs to ask questions.

Sam Hardin: 29:16

You get the minimal standards and just trust us, it's going to be okay. Yeah, totally, yeah. Well, can you talk a little bit about so drawing? So you guys have your the pictures of the graphs, if you will, the US, and then your first one is the, you know, the states with the least restrictive regulations, you know, to the most restrictive regulations. And I wanted to ask a certain question, question because comparing that to the fertility gaps, which is what the index, index is, is doing, you know, some of it, like a lot of it makes total sense. There's a you can see a strong correlation. You know, if you look at Florida, it's, you know, least restrictive in regulation. And. That's either average or, you know, some of the states around it with like Alabama, Georgia, you know, they're either at the average fertility gap, as you guys call it, in the index or above. But then it gets a little bit interesting to me. And I don't know if you have any insight on this, but when you go up to the northeastern states, right, you have the most restrictive regulation, and you have predominantly above average fertility gap. Did you guys have any insight there or like that? Just kind of seemed kind of little bit different from the rest of the states, right,

Anna Claire Flowers: 30:33

Right? So yeah, I mean, the general finding from our working paper on comparing these two metrics is just that, as as you have more restrictive childcare regulation, we do see a correlation with, you know, higher fertility gaps. So maybe another way to say that, you know, it's just harder to achieve fertility goals, or family goals, in those states, and childcare is possibly part of that, right? So we do control for a lot of different things to show that there's actually a relationship here. But I think in in the northeast, again, I'm still grappling with these findings, you know, I'm thinking through like, what am I seeing around me? You know, other young couples and and different things like that. That's sort of shaping these results. And again, I think, I think there is a like I was saying earlier, sort of this perceived cost of having kids, right? So perceived like, you have to be, you know, at a certain level of financial security, you have to be able to give them, you know, the world, and everyone wants to, obviously, but kind of this, this really, really high standard for where you have to be in life, and your financial situation and that kind of thing, to be able to, even justifiably, you know, start a family. And I think those cultural things are really different everywhere. And we're, we're seeing that reflected in in the childcare regulations. I mean, I think, I think it really does correlate with sort of people's perceptions of, you know what, what minimum quality is for, you know, for any kind of child program. And then, you know, we're just seeing sort of the cluster and up in the Northeast, and then, like California, Oregon also has above average fertility gaps and and so, you know, it's not, we're not saying it's all childcare regulation, but I do think about kind of the effect that the child regulations have on those, those perceived, you know, could I Do this? And how hard is it going to be to, yeah, to grow my family? I think it. I think it's a big piece of the puzzle where you just kind of, you look at the options and you say, like, is this doable?

Sam Hardin: 32:55

Yeah, because the rest of the states are pretty much correlated where, like, the least restrictive regulations, you're either of the average or above average in the fertility gap. And then, and then, so that that kind of all falls in in line there.

Anna Claire Flowers: 33:11

The fertility gap is like, like, above average. It's not so it's different than above average fertility, okay, and so, so the gap there is that measure that's between what I stated as my desired sort of family size and then actual, like, actual family size. So you're actually, your intuitions are correct, but like, you know you should see higher, higher fertility full stop, where there's less restrictive regulation, but that we measure it in terms of the gap, because it's like, you know, you kind of can't say that one fertility rate is better than another one. Yeah, totally. Kind of a moral stance. And so, yeah, fertility gap just allows us to say, well, this is, this is not our, you know, perspective on how many kids people should be having. It's their own, their own expression of what would be optimal for them and so. So the above average gap means above average gap between what I what I see.

Sam Hardin: 34:17

Okay, yeah, okay, I was viewing that a little bit incorrectly. So I see what you're saying there. Yeah. So it's the gap between what the the stated desire of the family is for for those individuals in that state and and you know what, what might actually happen

Anna Claire Flowers: 34:33

in this state? Yes, yeah, okay, yeah. Approach which it's yeah, it takes some explaining, because it's sort of like, yeah. Most people just look at sort of like, which states have the highest fertility rates. But we think there's just a different perspective on, you know, people are going to be different everywhere. And so there's lots of factors that go into this, you know, the total fertility rate itself. But if we can get people to kind of. We have it in their own words. Of like, yeah, exactly. And I'm not able to achieve that. And the states are very different on like, whether their their residents, you know, are sort of meeting those goals, then it tells us a little bit more about what might be getting in the way.

Sam Hardin: 35:15

And it can, it can really kind of take into effect and apply that economic factor. Of like, Okay, if this is your goals, then it, you know, it really does take into consideration, like people do have to think about the economics behind it, the affordability, the availability and so, yeah. So that makes a lot of sense.

Anna Claire Flowers: 35:35

You know how, like Claudia Goldin, is a you know, economist that talks about sort of the compatibility between work and family and and so if flexibility is a big piece of this, where, again, I'm talking about, I'm talking about sort of the environment of child rearing or something, which is a little squishy, but like you think about flexibility, you know, and how some of these regulatory standards, you know, just might not leave a lot of room for providers to be able to say, you know, yeah, we can, we can do like, you know, some kind of part time package, or we can have unconvincable hours, or that kind of thing. And so, you know, so the other ultimately, the child care, you know, regulation framework, it's, you know, again, well intended to kind of protect, protect the kids and ensure quality, but it's really giving us one definition of what quality child care is. And for someone who doesn't work a nine to five or or wants to have some kind of mix of formal child care, informal child care, that kind of thing, it's it's harder and harder for those, those providers, to think outside the box of how to help customers. And also, if there's not a lot of new providers in the area, you know, they don't have to, right? Because that's that competitive aspect, isn't there? Of like, you know, we already have a waiting list out the door. We can kind of do whatever we want, right? So there's not a lot of that flexibility that might help people achieve, you know, work, family, compatibility that they're looking for. So I think compatibility and flexibility are a big, a big feature here that's like, everyone can really relate to, you know, feeling feeling like, yeah, we want to make it work. And sometimes the options that are available, how license count here are just very rigid,

Sam Hardin: 37:25

Yep, yep, absolutely. Well, so can you speak a little bit on kind of some of your main takeaways from this index or, or maybe something that was surprising to you, or just kind of, you know what, what you learned or gathered from, from, from doing this index?

Anna Claire Flowers: 37:44

Yeah, I think one of the main things that's been interesting to me is, you know, looking into those minimum educational requirements and thinking about that again. Like I said, you know, it ranges all the way from, you know, less than, less than GED to bachelor's degree in in early childhood education. And I just think, you know, there's a lot there that isn't captured in an educational, you know, background, which we've touched on. So I think that one is sort of the thing that stands out to me the most as maybe, you know, maybe if, if the parents themselves aren't, you know, educated in this way like they, they don't, they might not really care to pay for someone who has the bachelor's degree in early childhood education. You know, they're just trying to work, work, a job and and so I just think about how people have very different values and experiences when it comes to, you know, what education represents and what it means, especially when it comes to, you know, childcare. And so I've been pondering that a lot. I think it's a big takeaway that, you know, education is a is a formal, you know, signal of quality. But I wonder, you know, really, how, what the effect of quality, of that, that measure of quality is on sort of other, other aspects of quality, such as, you know how you know, how much you can invest in other parts of of the childcare experience, and then, just in general, with the index, I think I'm from the southeast originally, and so, you know, it's, it's kind of, I think about, you know, just sort of the the different options that People use, you know, that I, that I have known with, and a lot of it, a lot of times it isn't formal childcare, yeah, and, and I would like to see, I would like to see those options remain viable, right? So things like family daycare homes and religiously affiliated kind of daycare programs. And things like that. They have a lot of exceptions right now. So you know, if there's going to be an exception, it's going to be kind of for, like a family daycare home run out of someone's actual home or or kind of a church or something like that, running a program. So there are some some looser regulations there. But I think that's something that's sort of dominating some of these, you know, least restrictive states, is there sort of living, like, I don't, I don't know, I don't want to call it, you know, like civil society, but like, there's, there's actually other, you know, other players here, besides for profit firms, trying to meet these needs. And we don't really, we really don't want to crowd those out. We really don't want to shut them down, because they're probably the most attentive to, you know, sort of the that, that transparency, that flexibility, you know, something like a family daycare home, can really, really help families looking for a flexible option, or, you know, I don't, I need, only need childcare, you know, this many months of the year or something. There's all kinds of scenarios. So I guess I'm just seeing we in the states that are least restrictive, they're, they're having a lot more success at having, like, a range of childcare options, and sort of letting you know, letting that industry be a little bit more broad than one single definition of of quality or or what childcare should be. No, I hope, I hope we can see more of that. And that's clearly helping families if they do have more childcare freedom that's helping them find that compatibility. So I hope we can see more of that and and also continue to, you know, let this, let this be a market and not be a, you know, a socialized program just yet.

Sam Hardin: 41:59

yYp. Well, so talk to me a little bit about the so this is the first edition. And are you guys? Is there a second edition? Is there thought about expanding on this and or continuing this index over the next couple years? And has there been any ideas there?

Anna Claire Flowers: 42:18

Definitely, yeah. So we again, we started with kind of the, the main four categories that were, you know, most, most consistent, most available across the states. There's a lot more to look into. So we have already have data on sort of different health standards, learning activities, different safety standards, you know, facility requirements, that kind of thing, and then, and then, the other sort of margin that we can develop is, is sort of the differences between different types of childcare. So again, most of this has been those formal licensed daycare centers. And like I mentioned, there's a whole range of other, you know, other businesses, especially those, those family child care homes, many of which did close during COVID, but, but, but there's, there's sort of this other market here that people don't typically think about, that isn't as formal. And so it'd be really interesting to see how the different states interact with those child care homes, and even have, you know, even rules on things like, you know, if a mom or dad is already home with their kids and they, you know, decide to to, you know, take care of one or two other kids and make some extra money. Like, are, our family is allowed to do that, you know, in all 50 states. And I don't, there's definitely requirements that are pretty strict on that too. And so that's that entrepreneurship aspect, again, you know how easy it is to kind of, is it to address this? You know? I think everyone kind of agrees it's like a shortage. You know, we've got lines. Yes, that really high costs. And so are the regulations getting in the way of people solving those problems? Would be really interesting to see, you know, what are some of the easy things we can adjust to make sure that, you know, a neighbor is able to, you know, take care of her neighbors kids, whenever, you know, she has to work the night shift or something, you know, and just, are we? Are we letting people, sort of, you know, make those entrepreneurial moves and even just help one another out, you know, without being prevented, you know, prevented from doing that by by the, you know, the whole licensing system. So I think, yeah, I think there's, there's room to grow on sort of different types of child care, and then also some of these other metrics that a lot of states have implemented that we could work into a more, more detailed index. So, yeah.

Sam Hardin: 44:53

No, that's great. And then the kind of, one of the last things I want to say is like, I see the two when we. Talk about childcare and regulation, I see the two extremes on, you know, one side, it's, you know, you have to worry a little bit about, like, okay, the quality of care, right? So if, if, if, the idea in some people's mind is like, Okay, if it's, if it's not as regulated, are we getting poor quality? That's probably something to be looked at and measured, and something that I know parents would be very concerned about. So that's kind of on one level of the extreme right, like, I totally agree with you that it's like, how do we help entrepreneurs? How do we help people basically support in this area, whether it be through, you know, actual licensed facilities, or some other form of that that's not for profit. And then, and then you go to, like, the complete opposite side, right where you mentioned a little bit in in the index about, you know, a socialized model of child care, which is like going completely the opposite direction of, like the government's going to control every aspect of that and that that, for its own reasons, could be kind of freaky as well. So, you know, it's, it's just kind of the juxtaposition between those two extremes is, is interesting to me as well, because I think it, I think you guys mentioned, like in Canada, they have a childcare, Mm, hmm, yep, yep. And it would be interesting to kind of know, like, how is that going for them? And, you know, is there any difference? And we that that's to be seen there from quality or for care, for, you know, how does that play out? But,

Anna Claire Flowers: 46:54

Yeah, definitely, as a general kind of comment on that, we see a lot more still, even though people, you know, sound the alarm about the US system, we see a lot more satisfaction when it comes with like, you know, surveying parents and things like that in the US market, compared to Even Canada's subsidized program. Now, it just sort of takes again, like you're saying. It takes parents out of the equation in a bit, yeah, we'll have a lot more. You know, it is expensive, but parents are, are more satisfied with with this tension, right? And I think it's a tension that we need to hang on to, which is, you know, that finding that balance between quality and affordability and, you know, let let people start new businesses and bring new technologies into this, this area, because it what happens in a lot of places like, oh, it's hard. Well, you know, it's time for the government to take this over, yes, and kind of giving up on it. And so this And then you don't have any options at all. You've got one option, and you're, you're sort of forced to pay for, yeah, you don't have a lot of oversight there. So it's, it's a good tension, and it's something that, I hope like, you know, as we look at the way, different ways states do things, you know, hopefully different states will say, Oh, well, you know, you know, Tennessee is over there doing it this way, and they're having these, you know, they're sort of finding a sweet spot, you know, between quality and affordability. And maybe we can model after that. So that's the benefit of the way the US is approaching it. Hopefully we can learn from each other and sort of keep that tension without just giving up on it completely.

Sam Hardin: 48:50

Yep, yep. I absolutely agree. Well, Anna, I really appreciate the conversation. It's been really insightful. Like I said, I'm going through a lot of these decisions right now, like currently, and I really enjoyed the index and what you guys have been studying and putting out. And so I look forward to any future, you know, any future indexes or the second edition that's coming out. Is there a way that people, you know, if people are interested in this type of information, is there a way to get more of it? Like, how would people access more information that you and your team and are putting out? Is there, is there a way to access that?

Anna Claire Flowers: 49:35

Sure, yeah, I would say. Keep up with the Knee Regulatory Research Center. They have a blog. They also have a a sort of research section on their their website where, okay, any big things that we're doing are going to be updated there. Also, the Institute for Family Studies is a, is a sort of small think tank based out of University of Virginia, and that's where one of my co-authors, is doing a lot of great work on more of the, you know, family decision making side of things. And obviously we are, we are definitely keeping all these regulatory factors in mind and everything that that that institute is also working on. So I highly recommend that blog too. And we're all, we're all, you know, writing on on both of those platforms sometimes so great. And congrats to you, Sam one. Oh, thank you. And yeah, thanks for having me.

Sam Hardin: 50:30

Yeah, I really appreciate it. You.