Would You Rather Tell Your Feelings To A Woman Or A Tree

Chesko, Regan, and special guest Misha Brown (known better as social media superstar "DontCrossAGayMan") discuss the question that has been posed as a response to the "Man or Bear" discourse that has been all over social media in recent weeks: "Men, would you rather tell your feelings to a woman or a tree?"

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Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater podcast. I am Regan, aka The Man Hater.

Speaker 2: 0:08

And I'm Mr. Pick Me, aka Ches no wait, the other way. I'm Chesco, aka Mr. Pick Me, who's already been picked.

Speaker: 0:16

And I don't hate men. And today, we Chesco, do you want to tell us a little bit about who we have today?

Speaker 2: 0:24

Yes, today we have our, our probably our most requested guests to have on the show. We have social media superstar and host of the big flop podcast, Misha Brown and social media superstar. Don't cross a gay man. Misha Brown. I I didn't nail that perfectly.

Speaker 3: 0:42

What's so

Speaker 2: 0:44

That was perfect. It could be in your bio right there,

Speaker: 0:49

We're not gonna say your handle. It's gonna be a mystery.

Speaker 2: 0:52

No. Yeah, it'll be in, it'll be in the show. I did say it eventually.

Speaker 4: 0:59

Just

Speaker 2: 0:59

going

Speaker 4: 0:59

off vibes.

Speaker 2: 1:00

That's what it is.

Speaker 4: 1:02

Yeah. We feel good. People know. Yeah, people know

Speaker 2: 1:05

the three, the three people that follow us that don't already follow Misha will, will be very angry at me for flubbing your, uh, your screen name. But I think, uh, I think most people listening to this podcast are probably very, very aware of, uh, the content and the work that, that Misha does.

Speaker 4: 1:21

Well, hi, besties.

Speaker: 1:25

You may have, in fact, just crossed a gay man by not using his handle. So now you're a part of the

Speaker 2: 1:30

room. I've always been part of the problem.

Speaker 4: 1:32

Can you imagine if I was nothing like I present on social media, just like flew off the handle?

Speaker: 1:42

I would cry.

Speaker 2: 1:46

Our first social media nemesis. Yeah.

Speaker: 1:49

You come out with a video immediately. Let me tell you the facts on Chess Scout. Do not go on this

Speaker 2: 1:54

podcast. It is the most unprofessional, unprepared. Oh my gosh. Do they know who I am?

Speaker 4: 2:00

Oh my gosh. I would never come out of my mouth. Yeah.

Speaker: 2:07

That's when you've gone too far, I think. If that statement ever leaves your mouth, it's like, okay, we need to reflect at this point. I think we've gone too far. A little too much. So we have talked about. The man versus bear debate, but some very fun men on the internet have come up with their version of said question, which they often say is of equal importance, and that is, would a man rather talk to a woman about his feelings or a tree?

Speaker 5: 2:39

I have

Speaker: 3:01

a lot of thoughts, Misha. How do you feel about the super fun comparison?

Speaker 4: 3:05

I think that it is trash. No surprise there. I, it's just so crazy to me that. You know, the men who know that the conversation is about them can't seem to get out of their own way And and can't see how wild it is that the women are presenting the fact that they live in fear over these men. And their response is, well, you don't let us talk about our feelings. As if

Speaker 5: 3:37

they're

Speaker 4: 3:38

equal.

Speaker 5: 3:38

Right.

Speaker: 3:40

Like, which is more important, being validated for your feelings or not, you know, like having a fear of being murdered?

Speaker 4: 3:47

Exactly. Because I'm, I'm all for you jumping on the men's mental health train and, you know, wanting to talk about this. All All of a sudden, really, really, I do think that it's something we do need to talk about, but you what, like, they don't realize is men not being able to talk about their feelings is something they've done to themselves.

Speaker 2: 4:10

It's the, the, the cause of both of these discussions is the exact same thing. It's like somehow the idea that somehow this, this second response is like, ha ha. That shows you, women, for having the audacity. Look at us. It's your fault, too. No, the call's coming from inside the house.

Speaker 4: 4:30

Go talk to the tree. Please go and talk to the tree. Talk to a therapist. Talk to your mom. Talk to whoever you need to. And if that is an inanimate object, by all means, just please get it out so that nobody has to listen to your bullshit anymore.

Speaker: 4:45

Well, the craziest thing about this, to me, Is that it presents the idea that women haven't been the bearer of like all of men's emotions For like a millennia like Hey news flash. We've been doing that. We've been doing that like particularly your anger Which hint hint is an emotion as much as they don't like to acknowledge Like women have been the ones who have had to sit through that who have had to deal with that Who have had to cater to that? For forever. Like my whole life is a series of me Dealing with men and it's just amazing to think that like they're trying to present like well women can't even handle men So i'm just like we do though all day every day in every setting

Speaker 4: 5:31

Have you ever met a man who was sick Lots, lots of big feels.

Speaker: 5:41

Water. You're like, it's okay. It's a paper cut. You'll be all right.

Speaker 4: 5:44

You're going to be okay.

Speaker: 5:46

But again, it's like, and I, I take all every gender's emotions incredibly seriously. All emotions are valid. I think it's important to talk through it. I think there is a serious issue with men being able to express their emotions. But notice that in this idea, They're not saying like, would I rather talk to a woman or a man? Because in society, like, who, who can you not speak to most of all about your emotions? Who will you get the most pushback from? A lot of times with men, it's other men. It's being afraid to have intimate relationships with even like your friends, because of fear of pushback. So it's like, um, I totally get that.

Speaker 2: 6:28

I made a video like a couple of years ago and somebody, cause somebody commented, I made a video that most of my close friends for the rest of my life have been either women or gay men. Uh, and, and they said, well, why? Like, aren't like, why do you, why do you avoid the other straight men? And I was like, it's not that I'm a boy. It's, and I said, they were boring. That was my, my, my basic argument.

Speaker: 6:52

You lost

Speaker 2: 6:53

them immediately. Yeah, it wasn't my most, uh, like, uh, intellectual, uh, response, profound response. I was just like, but it's true. Like, it's the, the stuff I want to talk about aside from even like societal, you know, uh, feminism and, and, and, uh, discrimination and racism and all the other fun things that I love chatting with my buddies about. You

Speaker 5: 7:16

like to talk

Speaker 2: 7:16

about

Speaker 5: 7:16

stuff. Yeah, which

Speaker 2: 7:19

I actually do, uh, but our conversations on this podcast are like, that's kind of what we talk about, uh, in general, but like anytime I, uh, cause this has been a big issue now as a parent,

Speaker 5: 7:31

uh,

Speaker 2: 7:31

where, where we make all these, you know, our children want to hang out with other. Children. And so we have to hang out with their friends and the moms, we were at a party. This came very clear at the party we were at and all the moms were inside talking and I sat with them because they were having a blast and just chatting about, and they weren't talking about politics and all those other things. They were just having fun and about all these sorts of things. And I sat down and it was like, the moms that didn't know me were looking at me like, why aren't you outside with the dads? Pretty

Speaker 3: 7:58

dark here. Like, why are you in

Speaker 2: 7:59

here? And it was such a palpable like, get out that I was okay. And I like, I felt like I was invading on the space and I respected that. And so I went outside with the dads and it was just so boring. Yeah. I, it was just, okay, wait, what's up guys? Hey, so, um, so sports game once again, and it was literally, yeah. Which game? Which one do I do? And I do like sports. I do like talking about sports, but that's not. The only thing that's immediately the only thing anyone will talk about.

Speaker: 8:27

That's so like, there are times I go to parties with like my wife, it's like that minute of like, please don't make me, please don't make me go with the husbands. Please. I know. Cause you know, they want, they're like private girls. I've been accepted in her group of friends as a, just like one of the group. But there was that moment I was like, Cause I was like, do I, do I, should I go that way? Is that like my role? Like I was like, Oh no, I'm not going to do well over there. I can fake it till I make it. I mean, I get along with a lot of guys, but like. As to like deep emotional or intellectual conversations, those aren't usually happening on the, no,

Speaker 4: 9:05

you know, and I, I, you know, like you Chesco have a very large female following and my entire life I've been surrounded by really amazing women. Now I am also, you know, the product of a high school sweetheart couple and my parents are still together and I've seen, you know, like a role model of what a man is. You know, supposed to be when he's a partner and he treats his wife with respect and can own up to when he's wrong. And, you know, it's a, it's a give and take. So I, I feel that I, you know, I don't obviously have the same lived experience as a woman when it comes to straight men, but I definitely have like an adjacent sort of, um, experience because being a gay man, there are a lot of straight men who just inherently see me as beneath them, that they are above me on the totem pole, that their opinions Our, you know, matter over mine, which is how they view a lot of, you know, the women in their lives as well. And so I think that's, you know, it's just a natural progression for me to kind of just like navigate towards the women. And, you know, I was just thinking about this cause I knew I was coming on your show and I was like, what else, like, where else in my life have I seen, like, Another, like, lived experience that almost mirrors mine and my best friend, she's, she's fat and watching men treat her differently than how they treat a skinny girl and then, like, It's the same as how I watch those men treat a straight guy to a gay guy, you know, there's just this like, it's just deep within them, their biases and their hatred towards something that they just don't value.

Speaker 2: 10:43

A hundred percent. It's such a, just to, on the straight and gay man thing too, it's the, if you are not, especially as a young man, uh, you know, if you're not embodying this overly masculinized version of self too, it is a, physical and verbal abuse. Like, you know, I am a straight man, right? I'm married to a woman. And I got, I got, there was in, uh, I don't think I've ever talked about this online, but like somebody like with a, it was a wiffle ball bat. So I was okay. But somebody like beat me with a bat, uh, in junior high and, and people were laughing because of the fact that I started crying, uh, at one point, uh, as a sixth grader. Uh, but I was not, I was not, I was upset about a game. We love, uh, Of like kickball or a wiffle ball. That's why there was a bat involved that we lost and everyone thought it was, and that was my punishment, right? That was a physical punishment for me having, showing emotion, uh, in response as opposed to just taking it. And, and, and anger, either anger as, as opposed to showing since, since my emotion came out as sadness and crying, as opposed to anger and yelling, uh, that had to be done away with. Right. That had to be punished. Right. And so it's, it's this, this, this, this. way that society will literally physically stop you from when you try to step out of the boundaries of what a man or even a boy should be.

Speaker: 12:03

It's interesting because there's like really good conversations online about how like even like men hating particularly on men who are gay. Is really an aspect of them still hating women because they any qualities that they perceive As feminine they hate so it's like they're punishing other men who are not Constrained by gender norms and are expressing themselves in ways that they feel to be quote unquote womanly And I think that is so accurate. It's like this I would say on one, it's hateful, right? But I feel like there's also like self loathing in there. There's so many men that I know that I think wish they could be more expressive or wish they could be outside of this box of what they're, that's so rigid. What like a guy should be like, I'm in the Midwest. So it's like, Like a tight box for these dudes and like anytime they see any other man exhibiting anything outside of what they've been taught is what a man is like They're rageful. Like it's not even like it's like this very intense feeling that i'm like That's that's something else. That's not just anger. That is something deep in there Why are you so mad at men who can express themselves like?

Speaker 4: 13:19

Yeah, I also saw, um, you know, someone, I saw a straight guy responding to being called homophobic and said phobic, you know, means that I'm in fear and I promise you I'm not afraid of you and I saw the argument, um, no, you are afraid of gay men because you're afraid of them treating you how you treat women.

Speaker 5: 13:39

Oh,

Speaker: 13:39

damn.

Speaker 4: 13:41

As seeing you as a piece of meat, something that they can, you know, sexually, uh, you know, exploit and assault and control. Um, and I thought that was very interesting.

Speaker: 13:52

Interesting. That's so true though because, like, there's, you know, there's a lot of, uh, Men online. I, I hear from a lot of men online that have a lot to say to me, um, but that will say like, Oh, I, you know, I like body language is hard to read and like I didn't know if she was into me or not and blah, blah, blah. But you put a very straight man near a very gay man. I guarantee you. He will recognize that. I guarantee you he will be very aware of his body and this gay man's body. I guarantee you any interaction, he will be very clear and very aware of, uh, and have big thoughts. Like, I've seen that. I've seen that out and about. We have like a area of gay bars where I am. And then there's like, slowly the straight people start taking over the bars. I was like, stop it. Um, but one, there was a bar that was predominantly gay and now it's kind of mixed and there are interactions like that where like straight men will get like really freaked out by gay men being present. Like they're not even hitting them. It's like, these

Speaker 2: 14:56

aren't guys. That's always a funny, and I say funny because it's, it's funny until it, uh, turns into something where they, they lash out or they get angry, but it's funny in the sense that though, before it gets to that point where they think that, uh, that they're what all gay men must desire, like all, there's all these gay men that, oh, just because you have a penis, that means they're looking at you, but it's also, that's, it's them showing how they feel about women.

Speaker: 15:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:24

Right. They're like, Oh, well, this is how I treat women. So that must be how gay men are treating me without ever even assuming that maybe,

Speaker: 15:32

maybe you're not the one,

Speaker 4: 15:33

maybe that's not what you're not a

Speaker: 15:34

threat.

Speaker 4: 15:35

I promise you nine out of 10 times. They're a bridge troll. You know, because most, I mean, honestly, most of the, so I was a theater actor before I jumped on social media and I was, you know, surrounded by dancers, people like men who had like, traditionally, like, you know, godly looking like bodies, right? Like, just like, yeah, they're like an Adonis, right? They're so traditionally good looking and attractive. I promised you like those. It must have been so rough, but like the men who, you know, would have every girl going after them most often also didn't care that, you know, us gay guys were around because they were pretty secure in themselves. They, you know, they were, it gave them a freedom, uh, that I think a lot of, um, I guess just, you know, Everyday Joes don't seem to have, and there's this pent that pent up, um, I'm not wanted by the opposite sex might also, um, be contributing to them, uh, just lashing out at my kind.

Speaker 2: 16:39

Well, I think the latent fear that, uh, you know, there was there's been multiple studies that talk about the people that are the most homophobic are actually the ones that are most attracted to, uh, it.

Speaker: 16:50

Look, yeah, look at the people in the government, like the people who have the most to say about like gay rights always end up with a scandal where they're with a man, you know, it's like, like, I think thou dost protest too much in this area. It happens over and over and over. It's just like, just stop it. Just why? It makes me so furious. But

Speaker 4: 17:13

you know, we were just talking about like, um, you know, Chesca, you were talking about you're so young, like what, sixth grade, you said, uh, with the wiffle ball bat. And that at such a young age for, you know, little boys to be trying to snuff out feelings, you know. I always approach things from a very like empathic, you know, perspective. And I feel bad for those little boys because obviously they're being taught that. That's not something that's just kind of innately in, you know, us as humans, I don't believe. And so you feel really bad that that's how they're grown up, that they're being brought up. And then, and that's what really frustrates me in today's age and with social media and the kind of content that we put out and the pushback that we see for men, it's like,

Speaker 5: 17:56

don't

Speaker 4: 17:56

you see that we're also trying to help you? Right. You know, like, I, I'm, we can feel bad. We can understand the reasons why you are the way that you are, and we can have empathy for that, but we also don't have to accept that abuse. As a byproduct anymore. And, you know, I think we could, you could be a lot happier if you could express yourself to, you know, to the women in your life, you would feel better if you could express yourself to your buddies, you know, without fear of being teased and bullied or, or unfriended. Um, and they just, they can't see past their own nose in that respect, which is so frustrating.

Speaker: 18:32

It's frustrating. And it's also, it's very interesting because even when they can. There's an issue even when they can identify like I Don't feel comfortable expressing myself or sometimes You know, I have trauma from my past whether that be women or dad a lot of times I hear a lot about like father issues, which is funny because they always say like women have daddy issues It's like well, um, a lot of a lot of people have parent issues But they meet the point at which they acknowledge the problem and they still don't feel comfortable Don't go into how do I address that? How do I fix that? Do I go to therapy? Do I need to talk to someone? Do I, like there's so many things that they need to work out on their own, but instead it's like this tree thing. It's like, well, women won't accept my feelings. And it's like, so you would rather talk to an inanimate object that you can hurl your feelings into. Which is my experience as a woman when I dated men, when they were toxic, which we all know I dated many of them. Uh, they wanted to talk at me. They wanted to throw their emotions on me. They wanted me to process them for them, which is what we're seeing here. It's this idea of like, I can't express myself and women need to take that. Women need to handle that. Women need to change. It's like, It's valid that you can't express yourself, but the next step is you learning how to do that and you hurling your emotions at women is not the answer because they are not responsible for that. And I think that's where we're hitting that disconnect is women and many people saying, I am not going to be the bearer of that. I'm not going to let you abuse me because you don't have the skill set.

Speaker 4: 20:11

Yeah. I feel like my entire platform, once I realized who my audience was, what they were listening to, what they were taking away, I saw there was, you know, upwards of, you know, 96, 97 percent women and having this bird's eye view and realizing that I'm talking to And talking with, you know, women who aren't trying to fit in their jeans that they were wearing at 24 years old. There are, these are like real women who have realized and are still realizing that the world is expecting so much, everything from them. They're supposed to be nurturers and caregivers and homemakers. They also now have to bring home a paycheck just to survive this world. They're having to take on those traditional male roles just as much. And they're just like, I don't want to be infantilized anymore. And. So it's like, we're all trying to figure out this, in a world that is asking everything of you, how are they still feeling left behind? And it's so, and it's, it's just so crazy that, and then a man who has, I guess, in most ways had a lot easier than they have, and aren't expected to do as, nearly as much anymore, are just like, But what about me? And it's like, two things can be true at the same time. You know, we're all struggling with something and we don't want to take away and we don't want to just beat down on them, but it's like, two things can be true at the same time and women, you know, not wanting to live in that 1950s. I just do what I'm told. And, and, you know, and that's what my life is. Doesn't mean that you can't continue to on your upward trajectory and still have all of the things you desire. It's just now try to find a way to do it together.

Speaker 2: 21:52

And I think the, the problem too, a lot of the, the worst part, and you've, you've touched on this already a little bit, all of us have a little bit, is that the, the videos we're making benefit men. They do. Some, some of the largest benefits are actually for, they benefit everybody and men equally as much as women, but because it is phrased using the word masculinity or using the word misogyny or using the word patriarchy, even if you don't say those words, it's, it's, it's. But it's the, the idea is that this, this thing that's, is that is the essence of them is under attack. And so even though it would make their lives better, they still have to defend it as if their life depended on it to the point where once again, that same violence. That happened in that sixth grade story of mine is happening in our comment sections where they are trying their, they, and they, no matter how hard do you, you work to explain it. And all of us do do the same thing. They, they still, it's just this backlash that they hit a wall where they cannot see the forest for the trees, the forest they're sharing their feelings, uh, with, uh, it, the, despite the fact that it is just laid out so clearly. Yeah,

Speaker: 23:05

I mean, at some point, like, I don't think they want to, you know, I have spent so, so much time, uh, like in my comment sections making videos where I would really try, like, I would genuinely in good faith have conversations with men, um, Who were pushing back. Um, because you know, I think at the end of the day you have men who have not had pushback in their lives, you know, especially if they're older, you know, depending on the generation have not had people. And again, not because the pushback didn't exist, not because people were happy, not because it was the things they were saying were a okay, you know, it was always not okay. It was just that people didn't have the freedom and the safety to say, Hey, I don't like this. Hey, this is inappropriate. Um, for the first time they're feeling the heat. And then there's also the aspect of people as people get more rights and have more access. They have more competition even right to whatever professionally that they're not used to. And they don't like that. And like, Nobody likes that. Like that's just human. Like, you know what I mean? Like none of us like when we're challenged, you know, it's not fun to be challenged, but it is a chance to grow, but I've tried to talk to these guys. And it's just like, they don't care about facts. They don't care about logic. Like, I had a guy on the tree, the tree, this, the whole thing, this one we're talking about, um, he commented, one guy commented, 99. 8 percent of men have never been violent in any way. I just blocked him cause I was like, that's so not true. Like that's, there is literally not a single statistic because he said violent in any way. Which I'm like, okay, punch, wall punchers are in there. If we're putting wall punchers in there, you know, the percentage is coming up. Right. But it's just like, they, they will use any argument. Like they will make up statistics. That's made up. That is a hundred percent made up. That's not a statistic. I think 105 percent of like men, like what, but it's a lot of that. It's a lot of either making up of statistics, misuse of statistics. The thing that really It hurts my feelings, but yeah, it kind of upsets me. Like, so, so let's just look at how this happened. Women said, we're so scared of men. We would rather take on a bear profound, very serious statement. Okay. Men hear that toxic men, not all men, not all men. Um, you have to say that because we know, okay. So, so they get upset about that. They make their own conversation. They say, forget what you're saying. We want to talk about us and our feelings. And you guys suck at listening to our feelings. We attempt to redirect back to the original conversation, which is what the, the conversation we were having, right. They have, Take in what we were saying and have taken, try to take control of that narrative, okay? When we try to redirect, they start yelling at us, which was happening to me in my comment section, about, see, you don't care about our feelings. You don't validate us. We're, I mean, I had men unloading traumatic things in my comment section. About, about the, like, When I was specifically saying, here's why that's bad. Here's why that's upsetting. Um, I said in the video, I'm talking to the people who get it because other people clearly don't want to, I mean, they were unloading traumatic things that had happened to them. And I was just like, this is kind of proving the exact point. We're saying we don't feel safe. You're taking our argument you're making about you. And now you're blaming us when we have a problem with the fact that you have taken over the conversation and calling us uncaring and unkind. Like I, I was called villainous, which I was kind of like, Oh my God. Am I in my villain era? Uh, yeah, but you know, it's just, it's so upsetting because it's like, luckily I've done enough work in my life to know that's manipulation. Right. But I feel like a lot of women don't understand what's happening with that manipulation and would get into these conversations. And even if you're having conversations about men's feelings, you're already sidetracked from the original conversation, which is the point. Even in engaging with them, you're still now focused on them and their feelings instead of your, your fear and your safety. And I think that's what we're saying that they're doing. You don't care about our safety. You don't care that we're scared. And they are proving that point by saying, yeah, but we can't tell our feelings to you. It's like, also you're doing it right now. Like, you're literally unloading stuff. You're giving me all of your trauma stories, like, without me asking, like, expecting me, a random woman on the internet, to be your therapist. That I should have to listen. And it's like, I didn't consent to that. That's what we're saying. That's why, why a tree may be better if you're not going to get consent from people.

Speaker 2: 28:06

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to share your feelings also. You know, it's like, oh man, I'm scared of being Harmed physically by a man. Well, I don't like hearing that and you telling me that is and When I tell you I don't like hearing that you're scared and then you keep saying but that I'm scared You're not honoring my feelings that that's how that works.

Speaker 4: 28:27

Yes,

Speaker 2: 28:27

it's like

Speaker 4: 28:29

So, I mean The video that I posted about this whole topic, I mean, literally tied this all up with the bow because one of my really good friends, Maeve, she is such, she's such a, she's a strong girl and I would never be afraid for her. She can definitely handle her own. Um, she can teach me a thing or two for sure. Um, but she, she went on a Tinder date and, and her Tinder date. She said it was going fine. He, she said he was kind of, there's a lot of corporate bros, tech bros here and here in Austin. He was kind of one of those. It wasn't really going to go anywhere. Um, she realized, but he didn't do anything, you know, outwardly offensive at the beginning. Um, but she got up to go to the bathroom and there was a table of drunk guys next to them. And one of them, he put his hand around her and was complimenting how pretty she was. And she was wearing a skirt and he put his hand up her skirt. As he was talking to her, this random drunk stranger, and she turned to him and she's, she smacked him in the face, you know, and, and, you know, she told him off and she went to the bathroom, collected herself. And when she came back, she told her date that she didn't feel comfortable sitting at the table next to this, this group of men. And she wanted to ask, yeah, she wanted to ask, um, you know, the hostess, if there was another table that they could sit at. And his response to her was, Oh, they're just drunk. You're overreacting. So that was his response. When they went to leave, you know, he was trying to suggest they go back to his house, and she said, you know what, I'm just gonna head home, and like, like a man would, he said, oh, I spent 200 on ya, you know, and

Speaker 5: 30:13

of course

Speaker 2: 30:14

he said that,

Speaker 4: 30:14

and And she said he said it in a little joking tone. Um, but it's, he still, he still said it, you know, and, but it's, like I said, Maeve is a very, you know, very straightforward person. And so she said, this did, I'm not feeling this. This isn't going to work out and I don't see us hanging out again. So I'm going to head home. And his response to her was this is why men are choosing the tree.

Speaker: 30:41

No!

Speaker 4: 30:42

Go fuck the bear. Maeve had no idea what he was talking about.

Speaker: 30:50

No!

Speaker 4: 31:01

So, so we're chatting and I, you know, and I was like, Oh girl. So she knew the man versus bear, but she had no idea what the tree meant. So I told her and she was just like, Oh my gosh. So he tells me that I'm overreacting from being assaulted. And then he screams in my face on the sidewalk in the middle of Austin, Texas, because I deny him what he wants because she told him, she said, my. Like one of the things I'm looking for in a partner is someone who is protective and you're clearly not going to be protective when you let a man touch me,

Speaker: 31:35

right?

Speaker 4: 31:36

You know? And I think that's a pretty, a pretty reasonable ask is that you, you know, you stand up for your partner.

Speaker: 31:43

Right.

Speaker 4: 31:44

Right. But isn't that crazy? So she's overreacting for being assaulted and, um, and he has to pick the tree because she's not validating him wanting to continue the evening.

Speaker 2: 31:55

There's so many things to talk about.

Speaker: 32:01

Okay, first off, I think that's a very good example of what Chesca was talking about. That's not validating feelings. That's you wanting something and a woman saying no, thank you. No. That's

Speaker 5: 32:11

it. Yeah. That's not validating

Speaker: 32:13

feelings. That's consent. That's consent. Also, you should have consent when you're talking about your feelings. You shouldn't trauma dump on people. Like, I think we should all Have someone to talk to but that person should consent right consent is huge in this when we're talking about validating feelings But so often what men are saying is validating feelings is them coming on to women is them expressing They're interested in women and women saying no. Thank you And that's their example of a woman did not validate my feelings like no she said no to you and you didn't like it

Speaker 2: 32:45

Yeah,

Speaker: 32:45

welcome to being human

Speaker 2: 32:47

And this is why we can't open up to women. That is wild.

Speaker: 32:53

Oh, I literally can't get over the fact that with no context, that would be one of the most disturbing things to hear. And I'll pick a tree, go F a berry. You'd be like, what,

Speaker 3: 33:01

what

Speaker: 33:06

did you say? Um, I can't believe, like, this is the thing I hate when I hear something on the internet. Cause I'm like, oh no, this is going to happen in real life. Someone's going to say this in real life. Here we are. We're in hell. We're already hearing men talk, but that's so crazy.

Speaker 2: 33:21

Can we work our way backwards to like the, the, uh, the, I spent 200 on the thing too. And even if it was said as a joke or jokingly, it's it, but the thing is they owe everything is always. It was a joke. I was, Oh, it was, I wasn't being serious. Being honest though. He genuinely did mean I spent 200 on you, but he knows he has enough self awareness to know if I say that angrily, then that I know that it's not going to lead anywhere. So I have to make sure that he knows I'm just joking, but you knew what you were getting into, right? You knew the deal.

Speaker 4: 34:00

Yeah. And here. And so a few weeks ago, um, I went and saw a comedian, uh, do their show here in Austin. He was on my podcast. Um, and one of the openers completely bombed. And one of his opening jokes was talking about his girlfriend. He was that he's a poor comedian who doesn't make, who doesn't have any money. And he was in his girlfriend wanted to go out for sushi. It was really expensive. And when she got home, she wouldn't sleep with him. And there was a lot Apparently a joke in there somewhere, but he didn't have, I mean, nobody in the entire audience laughed. Not a single man. Nobody was on board. Damn.

Speaker: 34:40

That's bad. You

Speaker 4: 34:40

know? And, and then, and then he. Like a man, he got mad at the audience 100 percent laughing at his jokes and then he berated the audience. Well, you should see, you should feel this up here from my perspective. And then like, we'll try to let

Speaker 5: 34:56

me, if

Speaker 4: 34:58

you were all trees, you would have loved this job. Standing

Speaker: 35:01

ovation from the trees.

Speaker 4: 35:05

Luckily, my friend, he saved the night and was a very funny comedian who didn't have to offend everybody in the audience to get a joke, to get a laugh.

Speaker: 35:13

I'll tell you what, like. I, so I used to do improv, and that kind of, well I still do it, but this was back in the day, where I would be friends with stand up comedians, because that was like the same circle, and there is nothing more sensitive. These stand up comedians will be like, I don't give a shit about anybody, I'm so hard, and like, I don't give a fuck about anybody. And then they'll get up there, and they'll start tanking. I have never seen people more emotional and unh unh unh uninjured like what's the deal? What's the problem? You guys can't take it and then they'll just double down and double down and double down and it's like Nobody's with you. And then I would hang out with like the, you know, after the show, you'd hang out with a big group and they'd just be like, this was a sucky audience. This audience was shit. And you're like, I don't know. They were laughing at other people. What's the problem

Speaker 2: 36:00

with you? Well, they also, they like try to ruin the night for their everybody else at that point too. Cause I used to do, and this is such a niche thing, but I used to do performance poetry, slam poetry. And you'd see that all the time where somebody would just bomb horribly. And, and I had friends that would say, Oh yeah. So I knew I wasn't doing well. So I switched it up and did my darkest poem where they just like kill the entire vibe of the room. It was a weird thing and it happened so many times. They're like, well, I'm going to ruin it. If you don't like me, how about you really don't like me now? Now it was my choice that you didn't like

Speaker: 36:36

me. Ew, that's so real. But again, it's like, it is the, the completely misinterpreted, like, what is validation of feelings? What is validation? Like, what is the exchange? I feel like so many toxic men don't understand what the exchange is and like, what, What their power is, what the other person's power is, where consent is, and that, like, even comedians, like, people are paying you to entertain them, right? And, like, of course people come to see you, and so you have your own brand of comedy, but you are there to, like, you know, have, people should have a good time. on some level, if you're a good comedian, you should be able to mold, you know, like adjust for the, for the audience. And I know a lot of comedians that can do that and do that really well, which is why they're good comedians. Uh, but this idea of like, no, you don't like my shit. I'm going to fucking ruin. You're not, I'm going to attack you. I'm going to like, it's just so bizarre. And even in these conversations with men, it's like, they come to the table with, I want this thing. And I expect you to do this thing. I want to tell you, or I want to sleep with you, or I want to tell you, I like you, I expect you sleep with me. I expect that you also liked me. And when they don't get that exchange. It's just anger. It's just like, it's not even a conversation where it's just like, how dare you? And that's not an exchange at that point. That's not two consenting people. It's just bizarre.

Speaker 4: 38:04

Yeah. You know, I, uh, I had another video a few months ago, um, which. You know, because we've, we've been laughing, having a good time. Maeve didn't know about the tree, which is silly. We're talking about a comedian. Yeah. But, you know, um, I also had a friend in New York City who went out with her work colleagues to a regular bar. And when a man approached her and her two friends, um, and tried to hit on one of them, she said, no, I'm married. And the man punched her.

Speaker 3: 38:32

Ugh.

Speaker 4: 38:34

In a bar.

Speaker 5: 38:34

Oh my God. And

Speaker 4: 38:36

this was this, this is was around the same time that there was a bunch of random men punching women in New York City. I remember that. Um, in the face. Um, it wasn't related to that. This was just, he got rejected. Um, and, uh, whether it was alcohol or his true feelings or whatever it was, rage took over and he, and he punched this woman in the face. So But what was crazy, because I wasn't there to see that, I was just recounting the story, um, was the reaction from men in my comment section. And they absolutely doubled down on violence. There was, there was so much. Oh my God. What was she doing there without her husband then? It was like, these are, this, she's a 40 year old woman going out with her work colleagues for a drink after work. What the hell are you talking about? You know, she wasn't there at, it wasn't a club. She wasn't dancing on a table, shaking. And even if she was, I mean, who knows, you're not in her relationship. Who cares? You know, but she was, she was there with her girlfriends just having a drink. And all she said was, I'm married. No, thank you. But the men in the comments, were reveling, I mean, frothing at the mouth at the idea of being able to punch a woman. Oh yeah. And, you know, and it was so crazy to see that as they're, that they're, they're denying that men are violent, they're denying that these things happen, they're denying that there's a problem with, you know, how these two genders are, you know, interacting with each other, but at the same time proving it.

Speaker 2: 40:09

But, and you see the connection there between your last story and this one of, of what will they excuse, right? The guy in, in, in, uh, uh, Maeve that I was on a date with, uh, was like, Oh, well, he's just drunk. Right. Cause he can see himself doing that. Right. It's not that big of a deal because I, I may have done that last week at a bar. Uh, so why am I going to get mad at another guy? For doing what all, what all guys do, but not all men, but not all men. And then the guys in the comment section of this punching story, like they could see, well, some had, what did she say? Right. And they want to know, well, how did she, as if there's anything she could have said in that situation to reject him that would have necessitated or excused being punched in the face.

Speaker 4: 40:56

Oh, I mean, one of the, one of the most common words in those comments, tone. What was her tone?

Speaker: 41:04

You know what that tells me? It's just that. Men believe they absolutely have the right to punch women under any circumstance. Like the fact that you think you can hit someone period, particularly a woman. And you know, it's based in misogyny. That's the point. It's not just like, these guys aren't walking up to other dudes and clocking them because they don't like something they said it's because they're women. It's because they feel like they have a right to them. They're entitled to them. They deserve them. That is why they're punching them because a lot people be like well That's when you hear like the men coming out with like well equal rights. I should get to hit you It's like really? That's the equal right you want to talk about the rights where that benefit you or the rights where you get to be violent Which again is seeping and just seeped in misogyny because why do you want to punch women so damn bad? And there's no circumstance at all Period where you should be able to hit women and like that's that's why That's what they're, like, they're just ready and waiting to, like, come up with an argument, and I think that's the scary thing is how, how passionately men will defend other men who are strangers to them, bad behavior, and not defend women in their life. Like, they want to talk about protectors all damn day. And yet they want to punch women. And yet, you know, on that date that with your friend, he wouldn't even defend her against a man who assaulted her.

Speaker 3: 42:29

Like

Speaker: 42:30

I have never had, like, I shouldn't say never. It has been very rare that a straight man has defended me in a situation where I felt unsafe. Women do it. A lot of gay men have done it. I've had trans friends do it, but more often than not, it is not the men who are doing it. And if anything, they're either participating in it or want to act like it's not happening.

Speaker 2: 42:51

And no matter what, uh, they will find there's, we've talked about this a little bit before, but there's no correct way to reject a man that would all of a sudden, no matter what there was, um, I live, I don't remember, I don't know his last name, but Olivia Lutfala, Lutfala, uh, is, uh, she's a creator. She made a video. I was stitched a couple months ago where she was at the beach and this guy was hitting on her and she was smiling and kind of like, no, it's okay. It was being nice because, you know, doing the exact opposite. Of what these guys said. This is she's doing what these guys said. And then the comment section, all these guys like, well, she was leading them on a hundred percent. She was, she was smiling. Clearly, you know, he would have, he would have left her alone if he, if she had just been clear with her tone about it. There's no, there's no wind it's wrong either way, no matter what women are going to be wrong. And the man was justified in. What, whether it was physical violence or if it was just pestering or making them feel unsafe, uh, by sticking around or sitting next to them or following them, you see that on walks all the time, uh, where no matter what, there isn't a correct way. And no matter which way we go around and, and we want to justify it in the comment section or guys want to justify it in the comment section, the reality is this is, this is the world we're living in, right? This is what is happening over and over and over again. And if at a certain point, when do we take accountability, right? When do we say, okay, it's maybe it's not women, maybe we're doing something wrong and we need to start holding other men accountable for that, as opposed to attacking the men that are actually willing to hold those other men accountable.

Speaker: 44:26

We have to stop blaming women and even the debate of like, people will say like, Oh, men are getting more aggressive. I don't think that's actually true. What I think is happening is men have less access to women because of the fact that, you know, the bar has been raised because women have access to things they didn't have in the past, right? Like we can have credit cards. Oh my God. Um, you know, we can work in the workforce, we can have our own bank accounts. And a lot of women are choosing not to date. Right. Right.

Speaker 3: 44:55

I think

Speaker: 44:56

so much of that violence was hidden behind closed doors. I think it was hidden in marriages. I think it was hidden in relationships. And now men are having less access to women. And we are seeing this like, like a supposed like, uprise in violence towards women in more public settings. But I think it's because they aren't able to do it in private. They aren't having access to harming women and taking out their anger on women. Uh, they don't, you know, they're having to go to trees and not getting the right response. Um, and, and that is being, I think we are seeing the effects of that is like. It's the same idea of like throwing their emotions on someone. You don't want to be with me You don't want to feel my emotions. You don't want to deal with me. You want to reject me Well, i'm forcibly going to impact your life now and that may be with violence I mean, it's it's the same idea online Like I have men that like if they lose access to me like they'll start they'll make a second account. I have men in my comments or in my dm saying they want to Sexually assault me like i've had multiple ones from men And it's like, what, like, how is this going on? How are we not addressing this? How are there so many men? That feel justified like who will say those things and still think they're okay human beings that will you know Say the shit in my comments and then you know go to church on sunday Like it's horrifying to think of how accepted this type of behavior is from men and now from your point misha from your comment section Not only accepted but like promoted and agreed upon like yeah. Yeah, of course. He punched her. What was she saying?

Speaker 4: 46:34

Yeah, and it's you know, it's even crazier. It is like you said, it's these men who are living seemingly normal lives, you know, it's not, you know, sure, there are a lot of young trolls on the internet and young kids who just they're they enjoy the drama and they want to, you know, add fuel to the fire, but there are more in my experience in my comment sections, middle aged men with daughters on their laps in their profile pictures.

Speaker 5: 47:01

Mm hmm.

Speaker 4: 47:02

Which is the scariest part, because not only are, you know, I'm, I, who is the mother of that child, and is she okay, but like, what are you teaching your daughter, what are you teaching these, the children, what are you teaching your young boys, um, in your lives, um, you know, and how do we get past where we are and getting past these generational traumas that you're passing on. It's just so crazy to me.

Speaker 2: 47:26

That's been the wildest thing. Are you on Facebook? Do you post your content there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's the one where I get the wildest comments attached to the, those, like you said, that the picture of this guy with his, and you click on the profile and it has his wife's name linked there. It has his children linked there. It has his business link there. And they're so comfortable saying these horrific things to people with their face attached. I think we, we tend to pretend like it's these nameless, faceless trolls on TikTok. But no, the worst comments are from the faced and named people on Facebook, right? That are willing to say that, and knowing that there won't be any repercussion in their day to day life. Knowing that they are, they're completely safe to say that, and it won't have any effect on their life. They'll just get blocked.

Speaker 4: 48:20

So, uh,

Speaker: 48:21

I had, um, this was a long time ago. I think this was even pre, uh, my F the Nice Guy page. I think this is when I had my other page, because I obviously would have talked about it on there. But I, so when I was in college, I had this guy who stalked me. It was a horrible, it was a horrible thing. It went on for years. My school, like, wouldn't do anything about it. But I, I had like made a video about it and then, um, I used to do lives a lot on this other page. And so they're like, can you, can you tell us a little story? I'm like, yeah, no problem. So I'm doing a live and I'm just telling a story and, um, like my viewer numbers like are going up wildly. I was like, That's kind of weird. I mean, it's a, it's a good story. It's very interesting, but like, I was like, you know, yeah, not that good. I don't like comment, but I was like, why is that? Like, why is everybody? And then all of a sudden, I'm not looking at the comments because again, I'm telling a story. Um, and I just, I'm like, Oh my God, it's like, Oh my God, he's in here, blah, blah, blah. And a random stranger decided it would be funny to pretend to be my stalker and to get in the chat and to just start saying all this shit about how it's him. And like, it wasn't a name, um, because I, I couldn't see who it was, right. But it wasn't like, I didn't use his name, but it was a, it was one that like, I mean, it could have been him. Right. Cause I, I don't know. Uh, but he was fully trying to convince me and everybody that he was my stalker as I'm like, like getting like, you know, emotional telling the story, uh, he's getting his thrills from pretending to be him and like saying like, I just want to get ahold of you. I'm going to find you. I can't wait to see you again. Like all this crazy shit. And, um, yeah, You know, I ended up stopping it and being like, it's not him. Like I figured out it wasn't him. And I was like, it's fine. Um, you know, some people, like, I think I ended up saying something like. You know, some people get their thrills from making people uncomfortable, and that's really sad, and that's very, um, that's very embarrassing for him. Uh, and I got off there, but I was, like, really upset about it. Um, and I ended up going through his page, and, like, there he was. He was a middle aged man. He had his work shirt on. I could find his work. And I was just, like, what the hell is going on? Like, that a middle aged man would get his thrills by trying to terrify people. You know, some woman on the internet, like it's just insane. And this was my page about mom content. Like this was just like, Oh, it's crazy. The internet, but it was just

Speaker 2: 51:00

a joke, right? It was just, I guess,

Speaker: 51:03

I guess if I would have found him and gotten, I almost messaged his work, I should have probably, but I didn't have any, I got any copy of it. So I should have. Um, but yeah, if I'm sure if I would have gone to his work and said, Hey, this guy was harassing my life that he would have said, Oh, just kidding.

Speaker 5: 51:20

I was just joking.

Speaker: 51:21

Uh, but yeah, it's, it's like, it's so interesting to have people come to us saying these things when our whole platform proves the opposite. You know what I mean? Like men don't do that. Men don't harass women for no reason. Men don't. And I'm like, check my DMS. Check what men say to me. You want me to give you screenshots, you would be horrified, well maybe you wouldn't, but I'm horrified by them. My friends, when I tell them some of the things I've gotten, they're like, oh my god, are you okay? Um, it's like, I guess the main point for me is like, so you are now going out of your way to defend men's behavior that is clearly toxic, yet you don't raise your voice. For women you don't raise your voice when you see these things going on Like even if you say well, I understand this is an issue, but also our issue is important Then why haven't you raised your voice till now like it is so Telling when people choose to speak and what hill they're willing to die on And the fact that like you won't even you won't even defend people in real life Uh women in your actual circle that you care about yet You will fight to the death for a strange man on the internet. You've never met You

Speaker 4: 52:35

You know, and it's not even always so extreme in the comments, right? Like, um, there was, I don't even know what the video of mine was, but I remember it being one of my, like, very positive videos. It wasn't, I didn't, I didn't insult anybody. I wasn't talking about anything, you know, That would make anybody feel it. It was a very positive video. And I, you know, just remember I had this one man and he, I just happened to clock the comment as soon as he left it. And, um, even though it was a nice uplifting story, he had to let me know, Oh, you're, you just sound like a woman. You're trying to be like a woman. And that was one of the times where I was like, let me go look at this news profile and I went and he was, I mean, he was clearly going through something because his entire feed was just like lots of conspiracy theories and memes and it was just all very negative. Um, but his, his wife was there, uh, married to blah and I just sent her a little message and I showed her his thing and I said, isn't it so weird that your husband uses your gender as an insult?

Speaker: 53:41

Damn.

Speaker 4: 53:43

She saw it. She didn't respond. She never got back to me, but she did see it. Um, but you know, it's like those little things like, you know, that happens to me a lot that like the point of my messages won't be heard because immense man sees a gay guy and then that they turn off.

Speaker: 53:59

Yes. Um,

Speaker 4: 54:00

But, specifically, it's something that's stuck with me that I get called a woman a lot, and it's used in a negative connotation, and it's just like,

Speaker: 54:08

Point proven. It's not out there, it's not

Speaker 4: 54:10

like, we're not punching people, we're not, you know, it's not violence, but it's still, it's proving that there's something inside of you that sees that as, Oh, I, I will hurt his feelings if I call him a woman.

Speaker 2: 54:23

And people want to pretend like it's this, like, everyone does it, right? The responsibility, but will women do it too? Or, or all these other people, but it's, it's, I don't know. I can only obviously we are speaking anecdotally, uh, here from our own lived experience, but even like here, I'll use a slightly different example. Like in my DMS, I we've talked, joked about it before I get hit on by men quite often, but I, when I reject them and I'm, I'm, I'm always very clear, I'm like, Hey, I don't appreciate that. I'm not interested. I don't want that. I have literally personally, once again, never had had a guy go, well, F you, you fat blah, blah, blah, or, or go go after me. They're always like, Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't know you'd see this, or I'm so sorry. I probably crossed the line. You're right. I should know better. I've gotten literally either apologies or just nothing, but, but I've never had a, uh, a full. Violent, angry, tirade put against me, uh, from someone who I've rejected. Right. Regardless of my tone, uh, on it. And so, so it is, it is very clear who is, who is responsible for doing the most of, of this stuff. And obviously your Reagan's always way more careful than I am of saying, you know, not all men are, or, or, or categorizing as toxic men for, and for good reason, because people will probably look Get mad at you a lot more than they do at me but so there was somebody in my comment section the other day were like they're like You're saying all men are like this. My husband's not like this. I was like, do you think i'm saying i'm like this? She was like you clearly are saying that that's what you're but I was like, all right You're not I was like if you're not gonna have a good faith conversation here, then we're we're gonna stop this, right? It's the it's implicit anyone who needs you to say That you're not, that this is not a blanket statement about every single man in existence is not trying to have a good faith, uh, conversation. They're trying to excuse something that they, someone who they know, or someone that they don't want to come to terms with being, doing bad things.

Speaker: 56:26

Well, and that goes for any issue. Like if you're identifying with, you know, the person doing the bad thing and not the victim. There's a problem. We see this a lot, like, even in like race issues. If someone brings up stuff that white people are doing and people are like, it's all white people. You're like, okay, well, whoa,

Speaker 5: 56:44

right.

Speaker: 56:44

I need to think about that. Why did you get so angry just now? Did I say it was all white people? Which it might be all white people. But anywho, like if you're, you know, someone who's You're talking about straight people that can happen to like, and if you're talking about any issue, if someone is coming back, like getting more upset about the idea that you could be talking, like, even though you're clearly not, the idea of you talking about an entire group to them is more upsetting than the actual context of what you're saying, which is usually that something bad is happening. Right? That says a lot about that person. And that to me, it always just shows me who do you identify with? If you have a problem with the statement, it means you're probably identifying with the perpetrator. If you're identifying with the perpetrator, then you probably should reflect as to why that is. Um, but, you know, anyone who's listening, like, I think it's important also to recognize, like, When someone's not arguing with you in good faith, you don't have to get into that conversation. Like I used to spend so much time trying to enlighten people only to realize that there are people who have the sole purpose of misunderstanding you and upsetting you. They will never understand what you're saying because they're not seeking to understand, they're seeking to be right and usually to put you down in some way. So it is perfectly okay when you know like, oh, this isn't in good faith to be like, Nope, not today. Cause that's a lot of what I've had to do is like, I just don't waste my energy anymore because they will pose it, you know, to your point, Misha, like it's not always this violent, aggressive tone with them. Sometimes they will kind of make it seem like they're, um, even being in good faith or asking a question, but they're really just trying to agitate you. And I think it's okay to be like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna waste my time on someone who's purposely trying to do me harm or to have a bad faith conversation.

Speaker 4: 58:32

Well, I can also, um, at this point, I can identify very easily the people that are not all men crowd because I've had to very carefully craft my language because I used to get community guideline violations all of the time.

Speaker: 58:47

Really? I guess I craft it too, though. Maybe I'm just pre crafting. So,

Speaker 4: 58:52

I mean, you know, I just had to learn along the way that, oh, I was getting my, I was getting violation strikes because they were saying I was denigrating an entire group of people. AKA all men, uh, in, in just like by saying, you know, like, cause I would start a video being like, men, are you okay?

Speaker: 59:08

Or like, a valid question, you know,

Speaker 4: 59:12

and, but I'm clearly talking about one specific instance in one specific man in an anecdote. Right. Um, So crazy. But I do remember one time there was a conversation that I had in a, in a DM with someone. She said, um, you know, what's so frustrating sometimes about your content is that, you know, I feel like you're dividing the gender, um, even more because you're saying that all men are like this. And I said, no, I'm not saying that all men are like this. Um, we, you can just kind of, infer that, you know, there's some men that we're talking about these men.

Speaker 5: 59:47

Right. And

Speaker 4: 59:47

she's like, I don't know if I agree with you. And I said, okay, well, take for instance, the fact that most of my hateful DMs that I get in my, that I get are from other gay men. Most of, a lot of, a lot of my nasty DMs come from other white gay men, um, because they also can be misogynistic and they don't like that I have millions of followers and I'm not placating, you know, gay issues or just like showing my, showing my body and like talking, you know, making top bottom jokes and just doing the same boring, Stuff that they're doing, you know, and they don't like it. And so they, they say they lash out.

Speaker 2: 1:00:28

The misogyny right there too is, is apparent because I, like I said, my experience, they, they will placate to me as a straight man saying, leave me alone, but they're comfortable attacking you. Yep. Yeah. Right.

Speaker 4: 1:00:41

So, and so I use that example to her being like, so I talk about straight men, but it's because I'm talking about a specific story, but like, I don't believe that like all gay men are good. Right. And, and she was like, Oh, okay. I see what you mean. She kind of, she saw the bridge I was trying to build. And, um, we got there eventually.

Speaker: 1:01:03

Yeah, I, I think, um, I think that conversation is always interesting. I've gotten it before too, that like, you're making more division, you know? And it's like, no, I think the men harming women are making division. I think that's the dividing factor. Me acknowledging the bad behavior is not causing the behavior. Uh, and I think that's a, a big thing to acknowledge is like, We're just talking about stuff that's already going on. We're bringing light to issues that are already happening. And if me talking about Like an issue creates more of that issue Then it's stemming from the men who are in probably misogynistic, right? If they're if their misogyny increases because i'm calling out misogyny, that's still them being a misogynist That's not on me But i'm not going to not talk about it and and swipe it under the rug because look where that's gotten us

Speaker 2: 1:02:02

I had a interesting interaction in my comments, uh, a while back when I was talking about assault and about, uh, you know, that that same video about women, uh, what when you're being hit on in public, it's, you know, that your fear is different than my fear. Sure. Uh, and that and about assault. And this one guy was like, well, you clearly don't care about the fact that some men are assaulted, uh, too, and I, and I responded to'em and not to. Trauma done too much in this episode, but I was like, oh I was I was content warning assault Uh, I was sexually assaulted by a woman in college And I was like and I shared that in the comment section. He was like, well, uh, why don't you talk about that? I was like because it's that that's Not what this conversation is about right now Uh, I do care that's an issue that's that's very close to my heart because it was something that happened and this even relates back to the uh, the the Sharing your feelings with a tree thing. Cause the couple of days after it happened, I went to one of my best friends who was a woman and shared. And she laughed at me, right? And she, she rolled her eyes like, Oh, you, and that wasn't, and that, I think if that was where the story ended, people were like, Oh, see, women are terrible, right? That's why we tell it. That's why we share it too much. But if you don't peel back the layers of why she rolled her eyes, why, what causes the narrative to be that I must be making this up. Or, or I must be, uh, I must not actually have been harmed by this assault because men are supposed to like what happened, right? There's no such thing as a man who would turn down sex. There's no such thing as a man who would turn down this from, uh, things. So if you're, if you're hurt by it, then, uh, There's something underlying, right? And don't get me wrong. That friendship was pretty much over after, uh, after that moment, because of the fact that, but that wasn't all women's fault,

Speaker 5: 1:03:52

that

Speaker 2: 1:03:52

was an individual experience that I have with a person that sadly was also, it's. Victim to the same toxic masculinity misogyny that all of us are a part of, um, that made it, made it so that she couldn't hear the story for what it was. Um, and that's why we want to deconstruct the system. That's why we want to stop the system so that anybody, regardless of gender, can, can, who unfortunately can, who is undergoes something like an assault can be taken seriously. Can say what they, what happened and actually have someone respond to them in the way that they deserve to be responded to in that moment.

Speaker 4: 1:04:29

You know, it's so also content warning assault, you know, I, one that has nothing, there's no women, a part of the story. I was assaulted by another man in a work environment. I went and reported it to a man, the head of security, and he laughed it off. And the way the company, which was run by a man, the way that they decided to solve the situation was to remove him from. Me, um, and the way they did that was give him a promotion.

Speaker 3: 1:05:05

Okay.

Speaker 4: 1:05:06

But I will never forget sitting down and talking to the head of security being like, this is what just happened. Um, and him just being like, okay.

Speaker: 1:05:18

That's horrifying. Both those are both horrifying,

Speaker 4: 1:05:21

you know, and and so it's like I understand your argument of things happen to men, too but what's the root cause of It not being something that we can talk about or not being something that is being dealt with your own doing It's your own doing women are not the reason why you can't talk about your feelings why you can't feel validated and and Um, experiencing pain and sadness and, and, and rough situations and being able to like let that out in more healthy ways. That's something that you need to work on. And if we only just opened up our ears to like the fact that the reason this conversation is happening now and it seems to be all geared in the favor of women is because there is an epidemic that has been going on forever of violence and unfair ways of life. Toward women there's not an epidemic of men being assaulted by the women

Speaker 5: 1:06:17

It

Speaker 4: 1:06:17

just doesn't go the other direction if a woman does it in specific instances. She's a terrible person I would make a nasty video about her just as fast as I would about a man But that's but that's not the conversation that we're having. Like you said, it's we're having a conversation about something that will hopefully lead to the greater good for literally everybody and they just miss it.

Speaker: 1:06:40

Yeah. First off, I'm sorry that happened to both of you. That's awful. Um, Yeah, I think when looking at women who assault, it's not stemming from misogyny. It's not stemming from a system within the society that women deserve more, women are better, women are entitled, women own your body, women should be able to control you. You know, men should submit to women. If they don't submit, then there's something wrong with them. If they don't give you what you want, you are owed that. And you have the right to take violence against them. Right. It is an issue within them. They are not a part of the, you know, systematic abuse. Right. Um, and then, you know, we have the patriarch as well, which, which reinforces, you know, the idea when it comes to men. So I think that's the difference. I don't think we're saying women can't be horrible. Women can't do wrong. Women can't do harm. And a lot of times when we see women having bad responses to, uh, men being honest about, especially with their, if they've been abused, right? Um, it is horrible, but a lot of it stems from internalized massaging, right? The idea of, you know, that that's, that men aren't manly, you know, they've been taught to put men in a box as well. Um, and also there's, there's probably some anger from their own side to be like, We've experienced that as well, right? I think there is some of that. But I think a lot of it is internalized misogyny. And them also not being able to know what to do with men's feelings sometimes, right? And not understanding that. Again, to our, all of our points that is stemming from the same thing.

Speaker 5: 1:08:25

This is

Speaker: 1:08:26

all the effects of the misogyny and the patriarchy and what it does to people and how it limits people and how it impacts every aspect of everyone's lives. And if we were to address misogyny, both issues, both sides that we're talking about would be helped.

Speaker 2: 1:08:42

When that's the, even on a, on a less Serious note, like where guys will complain. No, I can't act like that. That women will break up with them or not respect them. If they actually do open up about their feelings, which I don't think it's true. Are there women that exist who don't like that? Absolutely. Right. But they have, it's very easy for them to say, not all men. And, but then return around and say, but all women do this though. Right. All men are not like this. But I know for a fact that every single woman hates it when you talk about your feelings, when you blah, blah, blah, like any number of things that we've talked about, right? And, and the disconnect and the, um, between those two statements is so glaring to anyone. willing to, to listen to it, but it's still said over and over and over again with no recognition that that's what they're doing.

Speaker: 1:09:34

Yeah. I mean, I would have, I would have loved to have like actual emotional conversations with the men that I dated rather than Their anger like that was we didn't have conversations. They would be angry with me They I'm talking about the toxic ones, but uh, you know, they'd be frustrated with me They could not express their emotions. So I would be catering to that. You know, I would be reading their body language I would be reading um You know their moods in order to counterbalance it because we weren't having honest conversations We weren't talking about feelings, you know is usually the only emotion I would ever get from them would be anger um Or, you know, sometimes they would have emotions, but only if it was manipulative. You know, they get in trouble, they cry. You know, they want something, they cry for. You know, it's just like, I, I would have killed! With the toxic men that I dated to have an honest, emotional conversation about what was going on. Um, so it's just interesting that they're saying like, you don't want, you guys don't want that. I'm like, I don't, I don't know if that's true. I think a lot of women would like, is

Speaker 2: 1:10:38

this. It's filled with women like, please, that's all, and all three of us have many platonic friendships with heterosexual women. And what's like the constant theme has always been, it's never been, Oh, he shares too much emotion.

Speaker: 1:10:52

Right. Because it's what it's again, like, what are they considering emotion? That's what I think. If it's dumping your feelings on someone, if it's screaming at them, if it's demanding sex from them, like those aren't, those aren't like, authentic emotions like that's not that's not what I don't like

Speaker 2: 1:11:10

when you go out with your friends and you're still going out with your friends that's my emotion is my control over your life see that you can't share it I shared and then she got mad at me for saying she couldn't dress the same way she's dressed for the past 20 years

Speaker: 1:11:26

I told her not to leave the house and she did

Speaker 2: 1:11:28

she clearly doesn't

Speaker: 1:11:29

care about my emotions

Speaker 2: 1:11:31

the diabolical lies she has been told

Speaker: 1:11:36

Oh, Harrison.

Speaker 4: 1:11:37

Or they'll see, um, or they'll see just like one young girl on TikTok making like a, these are my ics video, you know, and they'll be like, see,

Speaker 3: 1:11:46

they just want

Speaker 4: 1:11:48

my money and they just don't want anything. And it's just like, what happened to it's just jokes.

Speaker: 1:11:54

Yeah. I thought we had a sense of humor. I know all of

Speaker 2: 1:11:58

us have probably gone through that too, where we're clearly all three of us make funny content, right? And, and we're very clearly making a joke about something we're responding to. And then we'll get comments like, well, that guy you respond to was just joking. Why, why are you taking this? I'm like, I'm also joking. Why is it only allowed for that? It's only allowed to joke when it's being really horrible towards women. That's what it's that's a funny joke.

Speaker: 1:12:24

That's when it's funny. Obviously. Oh, shit. Oh, I think I think I think any more to

Speaker 2: 1:12:34

say about trees. I think that was good.

Speaker: 1:12:38

Oh, God. Misha, can you tell us a little bit about how people can see more of your content or talk about your podcast just a little

Speaker 4: 1:12:46

Yeah, so you can find me on all the main socials at don't cross the gay man Would love to see all there already and then yeah, I'm the host of Wondery's podcast the big flop which is available wherever you get your podcasts and really exciting Yesterday we just finished recording our last episode of season one, but Wondry has ordered a whole second season. And as of this recording, we start tomorrow.

Speaker: 1:13:17

Oh my gosh, that's so exciting. Lots to look out for. It's genuinely one of my

Speaker 2: 1:13:20

favorite podcasts too. You, uh, you really do. So anybody listening that doesn't listen to that one, you'll, you'll enjoy it, especially There's a lot of stuff you cover, Brett, that I grew up with is like, uh, you know, and, and it's, I'll be like yelling at my, like, yeah, I hate it. I remember that thing. Wait, are they going to talk about, yes, they talked about this. It's very nostalgic. Yeah. The

Speaker 4: 1:13:43

nostalgia factor is really fun. Yeah. I

Speaker: 1:13:45

love that. Well, thank you for joining us, Misha. This has been super fun. And then kind of angry. A

Speaker 2: 1:13:52

little

Speaker 5: 1:13:52

bit,

Speaker 2: 1:13:53

yeah.

Speaker: 1:13:53

Also like a little angry. A little angry, a little cry.

Speaker 2: 1:13:57

Yeah. All sorts of rollercoaster of emotions.

Speaker: 1:14:00

Truly. Thank you to everybody who's listening. Remember we have a Patreon where we put our pre show on there. So make sure to check that out. And we will catch you next week. So, bye.

Speaker 2: 1:14:14

Bye.

Speaker: 1:14:15

Bye.