8. Rediscovering Connection through Circles and Managing Difficult Conversations with Ame-Lia Tamburrini and Shelley Ceridwen Doyle

Welcome to Rediscovering Connection! In this episode we speak to Ame-Lia Tamburrini, a Speaker, Author, and Facilitator whose passionate about Inclusive Leadership and belonging and delivers her work through Circles.

We deep dive into:
- How circles can connect us - in personal and professional settings
- Preparing for difficult conversations, and
- Creating a sense of belonging at work - particularly when we work remotely.

Have you ever struggled to create connection or belonging, whether professionally or personally? Ame-Lia Tamburrini, shares how transformative circle work can facilitate that sense of belonging, helping us to navigate difficult conversations and tricky power dynamics.

Find Ame-Lia Tamburrini at:
https://www.humconsulting.ca/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ame-lia-tamburrini/

Some of the inspiring individuals and communities we discuss on this podcast include:

Gary Zukav https://seatofthesoul.com/about-gary-zukav/
Rachel Jayne Groover https://rachaeljayne.com/
Female Wave of Change Canada https://fwoccanada.com/

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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your own life!

Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.

Love,
Shelley x

About Your Host

Hi, I'm Shelley Doyle, a Social Wealth Strategist and Connection Coach, helping remote and hybrid leaders who are struggling to retain their high performers, with tools and strategies to reconnect their distributed teams.

I also help people who move or work remotely, to elevate and sustain their social wealth, online/offline - everywhere! Discover More

I am currently working on my MA thesis, combining cutting edge research on social wellbeing and digital health, with two decades in corporate communications, to deliver mind-shifting talks, workshops, and programs around the world.

Find me at TheCommuniverse.com and on LinkedIn.

Global Workshop Tour "Beyond Screens" launches September 2024.

To hear when new episodes drop, subscribe to my weekly newsletter, or check out recent episodes.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

But difficult conversations are opportunities for growth and learning and that's something to get excited about.

Speaker 1: 0:09

If we're interested in evolving ourselves and I am like I don't want to stop evolving and learning and I know not all people are, and so that is okay as well For me. I feel like I use a combination of a bunch of those things that you talked about, so setting my intention is huge for conversations that are challenging or where I'm anxious about what the response might be. And I find often what stumps me up is when I've got an intention of this person needs to change, or this person needs to agree with me, or you know, somehow they need to up-level in a way that I need them to. And I think often we're coming into difficult conversations in that way, like versus just saying what's true for me in this moment, my intention is connection. My intention is to deeper understand this individual in front of me, and when you walk in like that, everything changes, because then you're in a place of curiosity and it doesn't matter what they say, you're going to just riff off it and go with whatever is present.

Speaker 2: 1:27

Hello, you are listening to Rediscovering Connection with me, shelley Doyle, and today's conversation was so enriching I think you're going to enjoy it. I'm speaking to Amy Leah, who is passionate about belonging and delivers her work through circles, and in this episode we go deep into circles and how they can really help to connect us deeply, whether that's at work or in our personal lives. We talk about preparing for difficult conversations and some different techniques that you can employ in your own life and creating a sense of belonging at work, and this is really geared towards people who work remotely. It's like can we create a sense of belonging at work when we're not in a physical location with our colleagues? So get yourself a cup of tea and enjoy the conversation.

Speaker 1: 2:23

Yeah, so Circle of Change I started in 2021. And it was a calling as well. It was a moment in the deep winter where I didn't know what my next move was. I wanted desperately to be of service, to give my gifts that I have in some way and my brain wasn't figuring it out, and so often when I have those moments I just sit and ask and what came to me instantly was podcast Like you must have the podcast. And this beautiful vision came to light of conversation and just beautiful light energy, and so I said, okay, sure, why not? And dove in and launched it a couple months later with the help of Mary Chan, who's just an amazing podcast producer and coach, here also in Victoria, and the journey was fantastic.

Speaker 1: 3:24

The intention really was to speak to change makers, people that were out there trying to make the world a better place in some way and wanting that inner reflective time to allow themselves to give deeper by knowing themselves more. And it was an awesome experience. I loved it and in that journey I found my voice more, which has been a lifelong journey for me and, I think, many others out there as well. But that was kind of step one and it was very intimidating at the beginning to just speak into this microphone and know somebody was listening. But then over time I got comfort in that and also I knew myself more. I knew what I wanted to really take a stand for through those conversations. And then, yeah, I think, coming out of COVID and I didn't know, maybe it was tied into COVID, the isolation and then the opening up, but just something switched and I knew instantly I couldn't continue this, that I wanted to be in person with people making an impact in a different way. So I retired it.

Speaker 2: 4:43

And I know I totally empathize with the idea of wanting to be speaking to change makers and it does kind of open the door to just be having those rich conversations and it's like you don't just go for a coffee and start talking mundane stuff. It's like you get in there and you just start talking about the juicy topics that you love to be talking about, they love to be talking about and, like you said, it's helping them to get to know themselves more, because a lot of the times we're doing this kind of passion work but unless people are asking us questions about it, your impact is only on the is only your clients or your close friends that you share it with. So podcasting is really an opportunity to talk about it more and then start embodying that passion, that purpose even more.

Speaker 1: 5:34

Yeah, absolutely, and I do a lot of circle work, so sitting in circles, having conversations in that way, and I host those for my clients and teams that I get to work with. And I also have my own circles that I show up in and I found over time, like the deeper work that I do in community and with organizations, the more necessary and important those other spaces are, so that I'm continuing to process and deepen my knowledge of myself. And, yeah, so I just find myself these days really so grateful for those spaces that I get to show up in, which relates to what you're saying.

Speaker 2: 6:16

So I'd love to talk about these circles and I've been kind of doing a similar, similar thing and totally organic, and then sometimes I plan them and it totally kind of goes to plan and feels good and other times, other times, I almost feel like I'm not in my power to facilitate it, particularly when it's with personal groups. How do you handle power dynamics like that? Like if you're doing it with clients, I find that it's easier in a kind of a group coaching environment because they're expecting you to be the facilitator. But have you had any challenges trying to turn your personal groups into a circle?

Speaker 1: 7:03

Interesting. I did run a few circles with friends and it was really great, and in those roles I also played facilitator, but also was just Amy Lee and myself in that moment. And that was an interesting balance, because I would go from like bawling my eyes out because I was having a moment and then I'd be like okay. So the next question that we're going to explore is this I mean, I love that process, I'm comfortable with that flow and the friends in those circles also love that too. Like it was just very organic in that way.

Speaker 2: 7:51

And what size circles have you found to be the most enriching, where you do feel like you are able to really give and receive what's needed?

Speaker 1: 8:04

from it. Oh yeah, I love that question. I think the four to five people is fantastic. I just hosted a leadership retreat. It was five days up in Nanaimo at the Bethlehem Center just a sacred place and there were four leaders that came and the five of us. I just found that that we were able to go so deep, but there was also enough flow and diversity in the room that we got to learn from each other as well. So I love that size.

Speaker 2: 8:38

And that has come through the last two podcasts that I filmed that magic five just keeps coming up again and again. So, yeah, I'm really intrigued that you you've brought that back. So let's delve into belonging. Something that I read of yours was about passion coming from pain, and this is something that my professor from Royal Roads also flagged to me about a year ago when I was living in Chornigan Lake, an eco village there, and I was so passionate about community and he flagged this to me that your passion always comes from your pain, and I was like, really, where's the pain and it? And it took me that long and once I started unpacking it, like it went back decades and it was something that I hadn't even acknowledged at the time but then started to make sense, knowing that the passion comes from pain. And so I'd love to, if you're comfortable, get an understanding of that sense of belonging and where that's really the root of it, or where the way that passion has really come from.

Speaker 1: 9:52

Yeah, I love that and, yes, I love what you just shared too in terms of those moments of aha and deeper understanding of yourself and why, why am I so passionate about this? So that's brilliant. Yeah, so I grew up in a, in a childhood home that had a lot of division in it, there was a lot of fighting and addictions and, yeah, it wasn't a particularly calm environment. And in that, in that setting, I really began and that's a friendly relationship with conflict. I hated conflict. I avoided it at all costs when I got into my adulthood.

Speaker 1: 10:43

Coupled with that, there was a really strong message in my family of origin that as a girl I was meant to be seen and not heard, and that was just cultural practices in my family. And so, getting into my adulthood, I really had a hard time speaking my mind, articulating needs, anything like that, talking in front of people, presentations, everything I was. I called myself shy. And then the conflict avoidance was another whole piece where and it really showed up in my intimate partner relationships where I wasn't articulating my needs I could. Never. I was really so much more focused on keeping the waters calm and trying to avoid conflict that I wasn't showing up as my authentic self.

Speaker 1: 11:36

And then eventually, of course, all the feelings that I had just bottled down came up and out and exploded, usually in anger and rage. So I was recreating all of that conflict from my childhood when I had that realization moment. That was very painful for me to see. So I think in that setting there's so many layers in it. The not feeling like I belonged in my own family or that there was no space for me in my voice had me be very impassioned about spaces. I was so tuned into what's missing here, who are the? What voices are not being represented here? And so from a young age was really very interested in human rights and I spent my high school reading about Malcolm X and Martin Luther King and Gandhi and all of these people where nothing else was prodding me to do that. I lived in a very white rural town, Like there was no reason to have those kinds of conversations or bring those issues to the table, but there was just something in me that needed to Like they were there representing a lot of people.

Speaker 1: 12:56

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Maybe you even felt represented by their words.

Speaker 1: 13:03

Yeah, I did.

Speaker 1: 13:03

I felt seen in a lot of ways by their stories and I think that's why I love circle so much too, because it's literally just sharing stories and in those sharing of stories I see myself, I feel heard and understood on a deeper level, which is brilliant.

Speaker 1: 13:24

So this story is twisting in an interesting way, in a way that I don't think I've ever really articulated it before, but I think all of that landed, yeah, in a place in my life. I was leaving a relationship again in a very similar way and I just thought I don't wanna keep doing this anymore. I don't wanna keep projecting whatever's going on in me out there and causing hurt, and I want connection like I want intimacy, I want it to feel like I belong. And I got the sense that it had nothing to do with the other people, that I had spent my whole life blaming for that lack of connection. So that was really my call to do my inner work, which, fast forward, allowed me to then really focus my work today on creating spaces where everybody feels like they belong and doing the inner work that I think is essential for those spaces to be created so beautiful.

Speaker 2: 14:26

I so resonate, amy Lea, because back in I guess it was January 22,.

Speaker 2: 14:34

We had been here for about six months and life was beginning to kind of pick up. I'd found some university friends and then we were back in lockdown again and we were literally locked down and my son's daycare had a case of COVID so we were not allowed to see anyone over my 40th birthday. They had me brought them, so I was forced to really go inside Like there was nowhere else to go, there was no one here to bubble up with, and that's really where my inner work began and the unpacking began and I started getting curious about community living and really thinking that this was the answer to everything. But really I got reconnected with myself and I think, like you said, you realize that you've got no one else to blame, but you just need to do that work, because until we belong to ourselves and know how to be authentic in our own skin, we're not even being seen as ourselves. So we can't blame anyone else for not seeing us because we're not projecting the version of ourselves that we are.

Speaker 1: 15:51

Yeah, I love that. It's a brilliant way to articulate it and it brings up to me something I hear from clients a lot, and also something that I used to show up as quite a bit is being in spaces and getting really quite annoyed that nobody was hearing me or listening to me or there was no space for my voice to be heard and I would leave so angry about that. But what you said really puts that in a whole new light. It's like, well, what exactly was needing to be seen in that moment? I didn't know at that time.

Speaker 2: 16:28

Yeah, and something I picked up that you said before was about you thought that you were shy and about that labelling of any labels that we give oh, they are so and so it's not like I feel shy today. It's like naming yourself shy does make you feel different in all settings. To know that sometimes you will be feeling shy and sometimes you're going to be talkative and just allowing ourselves to kind of take the labels off and just be present, because we are different versions of ourselves in the company of different people, and I think COVID really highlighted that For me, the versions of yourself that you are in the workplace, it's like am I able to be that version of myself on Zoom with the same workplace colleagues? Maybe that's a nice segue into belonging in the workplace.

Speaker 1: 17:31

Yeah, zoom was very interesting in terms of those conversations, right? Because then all of a sudden you start to see the kids in the background and the chaos going on, the reality of life.

Speaker 1: 17:44

The reality of life that we tended to pack away when we walked through the doors of the office, right, oh no, I'm just a worker in this space or manager or whatever. And so COVID kind of took the doors off that which was really vulnerable, I think, for a lot of people, and now it feels a little bit more normalized to have your full space come with you to work in the Zoom setting.

Speaker 2: 18:11

I do remember a news broadcast in the UK and they literally have that, they have the kids come into a live news broadcast and then it was just like it kind of just gave everyone else permission to say it's okay, like it happens.

Speaker 1: 18:27

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 18:28

Interesting perspective that actually because it's kind of flipping it the other way it's like saying perhaps that allowed us to be more authentic, Whereas otherwise you do have work mask and home mask. It's like maybe it allowed us to take stock of who we are and be more them in different environments and we create a sense of belonging in a full remote environment. As far as you have experienced, and if people are just about to take a remote working job, what could they do to ensure that they do feel connected with their teams, especially? We don't know what's gonna happen going back into another winter, Like how can we protect ourselves and ensure that we don't feel isolated again if the worst should happen?

Speaker 1: 19:33

Yeah, it's a great question. I think In COVID I would have said absolutely. You can 100% create cultures of belonging and I've had great success in that in hosting circle dialogues on Zoom, and it can work and it is impactful and it's different. There is something that gets created when you're in person and you're feeling each other's energy on a much deeper level. That transforms the space and really gives your body the experience of belonging in a way that I don't think is actually 100% replicable on Zoom or on other video technologies. So for me, you know, the in person moments are important, and so I think, if there's an opportunity, even if you're working remote, to be able to be flown in or travel or whatever that is, to at least have some engagements in person with your team. It makes the zooming different, it adds another layer to it. So I would say that, and then I think back to what we were talking about in terms of well, there's a couple things that are coming to my mind. So, first of all is using time to get to know yourself, so finding the spaces to understand who you are, so that that sense of belonging really is internal and it's not dependent on the people around you.

Speaker 1: 21:07

So I think that's key and also just sitting with the question of how vulnerable am I being when I'm on Zoom. Is there a way for me to be more open, for the to let these people into my life a little bit more? And it's scary because we live in a world that says, oh, that's not okay, but that's shifting. And I think we're getting to a point and I'm hearing this a lot in organizations where they're like we're so done with surface level team building activities and rah, rah and everybody be happy and all of that is so. People want to do their work, people want to like inner work, I mean, and really get to know people on a deeper level and have authentic exchanges, and so the challenges okay, well, how? If I'm really wanting that from somebody else, which often is how it starts we're like I really need them to show up this way, but you need to set the stage and be the leader in it and find the ways that feel safe for you to be authentic.

Speaker 2: 22:13

I love that and yeah, it's really bringing up something for me. Like I I've kind of part of my research, I've looked into this like reciprocal vulnerability and that's where you build trust and that's what you just said. Like you need to take the lead and I found in other scenarios where people are asking, asking, asking, and I'm sharing, sharing, sharing, and then I'll ask in return and then there's it is very, very surface level and that can feel a little bit uncomfortable because they're not taking the lead, but they're not afraid to ask you the deep questions. So I think that's a really valuable message to just share with listeners out there.

Speaker 2: 23:02

Like take the lead, do go first in your vulnerability, even though it's vulnerable, if you want to really build that relationship and build that trust. And you don't need to peel back your whole onion, just peel back a layer and then next time you gather, peel back another layer. But that has to be reciprocated, that you have to feel like it's a positive energetic exchange. And if it feels like you're peeling, peeling, peeling and then the other person is kind of keeping their onion tight shut, then maybe that's not the person that you that you can go deeper with and pure acceptance of that and maybe find somebody else in the organization or in your friendship group, whatever it might be that that there can be that reciprocal exchange of energy.

Speaker 1: 23:54

Yeah, I love that and 100% I think I. No, I didn't. I don't think I did date a guy like that too. He was just so good at asking the questions and in the beginning that was enticing. That was like, oh, somebody's interested, they're a good listener. But then it got kind of like, well, they're not sharing anything.

Speaker 1: 24:15

It arose the trust in some ways, I think, too, because it's like, well, yeah, and we're all moving at our own pace.

Speaker 1: 24:22

So I love what you said at the end.

Speaker 1: 24:23

It's like full acceptance.

Speaker 1: 24:25

We're not trying to force people to be a certain way for us to feel okay, and I think that's a conversation that keeps coming up in the diversity, equity, inclusion space that I work in is that right now there's this conversation of, well, we need all the people who aren't getting it or that are still kind of holding the old guard to get it and move forward, and I need them to be here now.

Speaker 1: 24:51

And once we force that upon people, there's a nervous system response that says, oh, like that person is saying, well, this doesn't feel safe for me either to be safe for where I'm at, and so how do we create spaces for it to be okay where people are in their evolutionary journey, while also holding people to be accountable and responsible for harms that they're causing? So that that's a slightly different conversation, but I think the more we are know ourselves and are at home in these bodies, the less activated we are when people aren't coming along or not meeting us where we're at, so that when we can easily make the decision in a discerning way that's non judgmental. To just say, yeah, this isn't my person, I'm going to move on.

Speaker 2: 25:48

And and it's not always easy to do that it's like breaking up with a partner. You normally have a conversation about it, but if it's a work colleague or a friend, is it easier to just allow it to fizzle out, and I think most people would say yes. So some of the conversations I've been having recently are how do we have those difficult conversations? I've actually had had this debate with a few people, so maybe we can, maybe we can go at it here and I don't think I've got the answer. Okay, so I was on a podcast with AI Sentinel recently and we were talking about AI chat box, which I am very, very wary of. I don't think this is going to be a good move for society. But then I got to talking to a friend who's a therapist and we started talking about how we have difficult conversations with our friends. Because, yeah, I was saying I was on this AI podcast and I was like well, hang on, how about if you can practice the conversation with AI, to practice the different scenarios? And she said in therapy they always suggest you use the empty chair exercise. So you do practice the conversation in advance, but with an empty chair. So you're essentially speaking to yourself to your higher self, to kind of try and get that wisdom to come in. So when you do have that difficult conversation, you kind of you go in in a place that you intentionally want to.

Speaker 2: 27:32

The third option, which I spoke to Robin Dunbar about, was if we do have our close circle of friends like, should we be talking to our close friends about these difficult conversations and we don't need to name who it is, we don't need to give any you know intimate details, but voicing it with close friends can mean that it's a learning opportunity for you. They can help you to see it from a different perspective, and it's also a learning opportunity for them because if they then are going to face a difficult conversation, maybe they won't shy away from it. Maybe they will just face it or even come to you to kind of bounce some ideas across first. So there's three ways that we can prepare ourselves for a difficult conversation, and I'm not saying that I'm doing it, but I'm saying these are the options available to us and I think I need to start taking more of the.

Speaker 1: 28:34

Yeah, it's such a, it's such a juicy topic, difficult conversations and even the labeling like isn't it interesting that we label it difficult? And so instantly our nervous system is like I don't want to do this, like this is terrifying. But difficult conversations are opportunities for growth and learning and that's something to get excited about if we're, if we're interested in evolving ourselves and I am like I don't want to stop evolving and learning and I know not all people are and so that that is okay as well For me. I feel like I use a combination of a bunch of those things that you talked about. So setting my intention is huge for conversations that are challenging or where I'm anxious about what the response might be. And I find often what stumps me up is when I've got an intention of this person needs to change, or this person needs to agree with me, or you know, somehow they need to up level in a way that I need them to. And I think often we're coming into difficult conversations in that way, like versus just saying what's true for me in this moment, my intention is connection. My intention is to deeper understand this individual in front of me, and when you walk in like that, everything changes, because then you're in a place of curiosity and it doesn't matter what they say, you're going to just riff off it and go with whatever is present Makes it more exciting.

Speaker 1: 30:18

I also have some friends in my life and I call them spiritual partners.

Speaker 1: 30:23

We've gone through similar trainings together and so we have similar languages that we can use when I know that I'm just stuck in a place of fear and I have a conversation and I really want to have it, but I want to have it in a good way, so that I'm not causing harm or putting negative energy back out into the world, because that's important for me and I can go to them and I can just be like whatever it is on my chest and then settle into, like, okay, this is how I would like to show up and they can just ask me the questions Well, what is your intention with this conversation?

Speaker 1: 30:59

And often just in that asking, sometimes I realize I actually don't need to have the conversation at all. It's just an internal working and a reframing that needs to go on, because I think that's hard. Sometimes we always want to put it back on the other person or they need to be involved in my processing journey, but sometimes that's actually not true. So I think, having that friend, but the friend that can actually support you in the way that you want to be supported, not in a way that's going to fuel your perspective, your point of view, who can actually challenge you to show up as your best self.

Speaker 2: 31:38

So okay, so okay, we can't just have yes, people around us. And, yeah, like some of the research I looked at said that we have three types of friends. So we have our green friends who, like everything's easy, you never need to really think through like conversation just flows effortlessly. Then you have your yellow friends and you get on okay, but you do find yourself self-editing quite a lot. Then you have your orange friends, who are willing to challenge your point of view and they get you to test and understand yourself better through like you're being challenged and then, if you defend that point of view, then you start to learn. Oh, I really do think that, right, I feel strongly I didn't realize I felt that strongly about that, but I do and it's the yellow friends that we need to be mindful of, the ones that we are constantly self-editing for. Right, because we're not able to be our most authentic self.

Speaker 2: 32:43

But we can't just have yes, yes, yes people around us, because then we're not learning and that's it. Then you'll go into this potentially difficult conversation so charged with my point of view is the best, because everyone agrees with me, which that's not probably the healthiest way to go into your yeah, your approach definitely feels good, like go in with curiosity and really look to learn their perspective. And, man, I had so many of those learning opportunities at the eco village. It was, it was. It was a phenomenal opportunity. We were there for four months, so a phenomenal learning growth period in my life. But there was a lot of difficult conversations and a lot of tension. I think when you're just living in such close proximity to 15 people and you are sharing meals with them 13 times a week, this is going to come.

Speaker 1: 33:46

Amazing, fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, I've not done the communal living like that, but I am deeply intrigued because I do think it would be a spiritual up level in terms of being in those conversations on a regular basis. And then did you find that it got easier, like in that journey or what happened the other way, the other way.

Speaker 2: 34:10

We did it. We firstly had a six week trial and we got to the end of that and I was like I'm not ready to leave, like I was really in my honeymoon phase of it, so we decided to stay longer. But it was probably another month after that that I was like they got into winter because we started in the September. So we actually had a couple of really beautiful months and then when we went inside, I think the dynamics changed and it was a bit heavier and I've got two little children, so the circle was like every Friday night and the weeks that I went to circle there was definitely a noticeable difference in your understanding of each other and, yeah, like it was big release, but it would take up about two and a half hours, if not a little bit more, and it was beautiful, like because I got to learn about the ceremony of circle in a way that I hadn't done before.

Speaker 2: 35:15

And one thing that really stuck with me is that you have a talking stick and if you don't have the talking stick, your job is to listen, and the idea is that you do not premeditate anything that you're going to say. I'm really just take it in and just keep breathing until something comes that is alive for you and I love that and I know for some of some of the podcasts that I've done I don't think I mentioned at the beginning of this one but I've said before, like if I ask a question and nothing comes instantly, like let's just sit with it because, like we can embrace the pause, we don't need to just talk for the sake of talking.

Speaker 1: 36:03

Hey, I love it so beautiful and the presence of someone else who's really experienced circle and the magic that can take place in that. And it's the only modality that I use in all of my work because it is so profound and it works for everybody. Like, even if you're really, really talkative, I find those folks reflect back to me. Oh, it was actually a relief not to feel this need to jump in and to coach and to fix and to give advice or whatever, and they got to be with their own thoughts. And then for the folks that struggle to find their voice or have space created for their voice, of course, for them it was so healing and therapeutic to know that there would be an opportunity for them to share when that talking piece came to them and that no one would be interrupting them and jumping over them. And because that is so exhausting for those bodies, so it really is a beautiful space for everybody to, yeah, deepen connection with one another and deepen their inner, their trust of their inner wisdom.

Speaker 1: 37:19

I think is really important to have had people start in circle and they're like note taking and preparing the notes. And I let that happen because I want people are aware they're at with their nervous systems and how they're their program to be in the world, and often those people are senior, senior leaders and often men who have been taught that they need to have the answer all the time, and so it's a deconditioning for them to come into the space and trust that they're going to have wisdom. They do have wisdom within them, and it doesn't need to be an intellectual like thesis that they end up writing out and proving that their wisdom is enough. So it's really beautiful to see all of those transformations.

Speaker 2: 38:09

And you mentioned before about diversity and inclusion. One of the things I'm really passionate about is employee resource groups in organizations, and when I was at my last organization, which is a big multinational in Wales with offices across Europe, there wasn't a well-being initiative. They had a big charitable initiative so employees would gather and kind of go off site to do charitable work for other people, but there was nothing really to nurture the employees from within. So I collaborated with a few colleagues and we pulled this well-being initiative together, which was phenomenal. We ended up rolling it out across Europe.

Speaker 2: 38:50

But one of the things that struck me recently is that we were always looking to get you know, 15 people signed up for this and like big numbers. But more recently, when I've been learning about the power of five, I'm thinking about if we want to build a sense of belonging in the workplace, maybe we don't need to be looking at the big numbers and maybe we need to start telling people that they are in their power to create an employee resource group of their own, Even if they were to get two people to attend every week to something that they were passionate about other people and how that could really impact their experience of the workplace because they're getting to connect with colleagues that maybe are outside of their team on something that is really personal to them. I wonder if you've got any thoughts on employee resource groups.

Speaker 1: 39:52

Oh, to be honest, I don't know too too much about them, so I don't have a lot of experience in those settings. And I like what you're saying about the smaller groups. So even if I have a group maybe it's a whole organization of 50 people or 15 people we are always sitting in small circles. So never do I well, not never, but rarely are we sitting in one big circle, and that's usually that that smaller work because, yeah, there is something magical. And now that this has come up in three podcasts, I want to dive deeper and study it. I know your previous guests. They they put more thought and methodology and background research into that, which is which is really cool to listen to. I didn't know that there was the five, though I didn't. Yeah, anyways, that that was curious.

Speaker 2: 40:42

So nurturing a sense of belonging. We mentioned zoom before. Have you toyed with any other platforms that have lent to to this any better when it comes to workplace or other groups outside of that in your and it's in your consultancy?

Speaker 1: 41:07

Zoom has been the online tool and more and more I'm just simply arriving in person, and more organizations are asking for that.

Speaker 2: 41:18

Yes, yeah good, yeah, yeah, and, like you said, it doesn't always have to be in person, but having that hybrid touch. So you have some in person and I've I've really experienced that with friends as well, because I'm living away from my hometown. It's been quite a long time now because we were in lockdown for 18 months before we came here two years ago. It's been a long time since I've had quality time with friends. We have been back to the UK every summer, but I started arranging digital catch ups with them in the spring of 22. And that really helped us to reconnect in a way that we were sharing things that we would never share on social media and people don't really pick up the phone anymore. So it was an invitation. It was an invitation to share and it did mean that when we then got together in person, we didn't need to go that deep in a group, but we were able to really kind of feel in presence with each other, with that kind of deeper knowing of what each other had been going through.

Speaker 1: 42:37

Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I love that. I once in my life, not so long ago, I decided that I really wanted regular phone conversations with friends, because I had been the type of friend that just kind of disappears for months and then checks in later and I was really craving regular meet ups. And so, yeah, again during COVID and it's interesting because these things sort of happened organically, not necessarily intentionally, because we were in lockdown and now coming out of it, I realized that I have a couple friends that we talk every week once a week.

Speaker 1: 43:18

And it's over the phone and for me I love that connection. It's nice to get off the zoom. The video is nice every once in a while, but going for a walk will often just go for a walk with each other on the phone and have these conversations, and there's something really calming knowing that every week we're going to check in and what I love is just watching the flow, the ebb and the flow and the hills and the valleys that we're all going through, and often we're at different places at different times. But that's comforting too, because it's a constant reminder that will will always come back.

Speaker 1: 43:59

If we're in a valley, they'll always be another hill and if we're in a hill, and it's nice to know, too, that we're not going to have that always as well. We will dip down again and it's and the continuity of it has been really cool as well, because then we were celebrating each other and our life journeys along the way. Yeah, it's been really special.

Speaker 2: 44:24

And do you tend to schedule these calls or is it just when the moment takes you? You'll pick up and see if they're free for a walk and talk.

Speaker 1: 44:33

Most the three that I think. Well, it's both, both, I guess. Yeah, I have two friends that were in each other's calendar every week and then another two friends that, yeah, it's more random when, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 44:52

That's it. The spontaneity seems to have been lost in. You know, we're always scheduling for work and sometimes I don't want to have to schedule for friends.

Speaker 2: 45:06

And it's like we're not work colleagues, like let's just pick up the phone and you know if, if they're not available, they won't answer.

Speaker 2: 45:14

And the same goes on my side. Yeah, I would encourage anyone out there, like if the calling takes you and and kind of this is going into a little bit of the work that I do, which is which is just a reality check on our personal connections. And today, normally, I think if people feel the urge for connection, they will naturally go to social media and then they'll spend half an hour looking at different social media and then they'll come off. They forgot why they went on and they forgot that they had that need for connection. It isn't necessarily fulfilled, but they don't do anything else.

Speaker 2: 45:56

My work is really to help people to figure out who the 12 to 15 people are that they really want as a active part of their life, whether that's in person or online, and then really nurture these connections and just even just having a visual of who these people are and just really subtly, unconsciously help you to make more effort, and then that kind of niggle of loneliness or the need for connection does envelop you, which I think it does for most of us at different times, rather than social media being the defaults. Actually thinking, who would really appreciate hearing from me right now?

Speaker 1: 46:39

Oh, 100%. I love that. I love that research. I wanted to know more and so, five coming up on, five years ago I had a cancer journey and it was one month into starting this business that I currently run and it was one of those moments of deep pause, obviously, and reflection and for me it was a moment of deeper healing. So that's when I really got to look at the childhood and the life really through that lens of trauma and that really shaped the work that I do today in the world, because I emerged from that saying, oh well, we all have unhealed trauma and that's really the root of the division that is happening everywhere. So how do we create spaces for that to emerge and to change and mute? But that's a side story.

Speaker 1: 47:36

What I want to speak of is in the middle of the cancer journey. I live by myself. My family is all out east and I have a beautiful network of friends here which I learned to rely on. It was very hard for me in the first place. I actually cried. I had to go to a neighbor's house to call the oncology nurse after my first chemotherapy appointment because I was terrified to ask for a change in my anti nausea medication because it wasn't working and it was so hard for me to ask for support.

Speaker 1: 48:15

As I went through that journey that got easier.

Speaker 1: 48:18

But there became a moment where it was very, very vulnerable for me to be here alone at night because I wasn't well and I was getting weaker and I had a friend recommend to me that I make a list of the two or three people that I could call in the middle of the night and I think for me that was so transformative in terms of being able to feel calm and relaxed and loved and supported.

Speaker 1: 48:48

I had those conversations with people that I thought would be okay with that and they were like, yes, but just to know, and then the visual as well, to write it out, because sometimes, especially when we're in those low, dark moments, it's easy to forget that we have all these beautiful people around us that just want to help. You know, and that made that night might not even be in their intention, but when you ask somebody for help, you're giving them such a gift to say yes. I've been seeking a way like especially in cancer, people were like I don't know how to help you, and so for me to reach out intentionally, it was a true gift for them to be able to say, yes, I can give that to you, so I just want to drop that into this conversation.

Speaker 2: 49:37

Beautiful and it's dropping in there Some research by Arthur Aaron. So Arthur Aaron or maybe it was the longitudinal study from from the states that looked at, they'd looked at a huge group of boys back in the 1940s and 1950s. Initially they looked at half the group went to a public school, half the group went to a private school and they just looked, looked at their lives and then they looked at the lives of their children and now it's the grandchildren to really see and their fight. Their main finding was that you can almost determine the health of someone at 80 based on their social relationships in their 50s.

Speaker 2: 50:24

This is so important. And just having you know, just having those two people that you know you can call in the middle of the night, that is what the people that didn't have the health in their 80s, that's what they didn't have.

Speaker 1: 50:37

Yes.

Speaker 2: 50:39

Yeah, it's important work. It's literally for our health and well-being and our, you know, going into the future and just doing a bit of this work. And, like Robin Dunbar says, so long as you've got five of you and you do, he says that they do. The five does need to be in close proximity, but you are one of those five and then the others I'm kind of kind of working that they can be. They'll be the friends that you're calling or they'll be in other places, or parents or siblings or wherever they are. This has been amazing. I've so enjoyed this conversation with you.

Speaker 2: 51:21

I wonder if there's a little unexplored area that we just don't want to leave without delving into. I guess what's coming up for me is is loneliness and just the feeling. So loneliness I've recently found a few definitions for this and it's a feeling that people are beyond our reach. So it is almost a mindset thing Because, like you said, if you're in a particular dark period, that in reality the people are there and they're willing to be there for you, but that mental state that you're in makes you feel like they're out of reach, so you're feeling lonely. So some of the work is really helping that mindset shift to a power of invitation and feeling worthy that people will want to hear from you. So we stop this kind of insular behavior or hiding behind social media when there's people that would really appreciate the live interaction with you.

Speaker 1: 52:41

Yeah, great topic to close on, I think, because we have an epidemic of loneliness In our world right now, and I think what makes that particularly challenging and threatening and hopeless for a lot of folks is, again, when you think loneliness that's dependent on other people. Well, other people need to be present for me not to be lonely. And the minute we do that, the minute we need society to change and we need, like the leaders, to change, because that will be the solution, or we to resolve our loneliness, we need more people in our life. It puts the power out there, and so I like what you're saying in terms of mindset, because it lands the power right back in your own body. And that's not to say we don't need people in our life, but fundamentally, we need to be okay with ourselves. And there's, I think, two beautiful ways to do that, and one is bringing your attention into your body and just asking in that moment, like, fundamentally, am I okay right now? Fundamentally, my whole and complete in this moment, regardless of how terrible things might seem or how lonely or depressed I am. And the answer is generally yes, I am in this moment. If I can just put myself here, in the present, I'm okay. And then, secondly, I think what is happening in our, what has been happening in our world, is more of a spiritual crisis in that, through colonization and various other big societal impacts, we've disconnected from the spiritual realm and the understanding that we are. We cannot be alone, because we are inherently connected to everybody and everything, and that's being able to see ourselves as energetic bodies, which we are, and so when you look at the world and life through that, you are never, ever alone, because it's literally impossible. And so I think that, for me, is a call for people to really explore the spiritual part of their lives and their ways of being.

Speaker 1: 55:10

I did this workshop the other day with all post secondary it was like all post secondary institutions on the West Coast and I take them through this exercise where they get to check in with their physical body, their mental body, emotional and then spiritual, and these folks shared. Afterwards I was like, well, what was that like? And they got to reflect back to each other, like, just hold the space for each person to share how they were doing, which ended up being quite emotional, because you know, we don't create those spaces just to hear, oh, how am I doing in this moment. But these two people, they ended up they said, well, what was interesting is, when we had our two minutes to share, both of us ran out of time to share how our spiritual bodies were doing and that mirrored our lives.

Speaker 1: 55:57

That were always like oh yeah, I want to do that, and it falls off the plate. And what I'm saying and what I think is so important right now that people hear, is that needs to become a priority of really deepening that relationship, because then that okayness is there, it's inherent.

Speaker 2: 56:22

And I love this about this island in particular it feels like it is a very present part of people's knowing here. I don't know if this is a global kind of conscious awakening or if this is really kind of a leader in spiritual conversations, but yeah, it's been a very welcome surprise when I landed here that this was the way this island was a real blessing. One other thing I'd just love to delve into with you is on communities and perhaps mentioning one or two communities who have been really pivotal in your personal growth and kind of really learning to lean into your passion for your work and then maybe if there's one or two communities that are alive in your life right now that you would love to give a mention to, yeah, fantastic.

Speaker 1: 57:22

My journey of deepening my awareness within began with Gary Zucoff and his late partner, linda Francis. And Gary Zucoff wrote Seat of the Soul and it's just a phenomenal human, and it was really through divine intervention that I landed at one of his five day workshops and retreats and then I ended up spending two years with him and Linda and they transformed how I saw the world. For them, everything was you're either coming and projecting out love into the world or you're projecting out fear into the world, and it was really bringing awareness back into your body to be able to sense, oh, like what is this body feeling right now when I'm about to step into this difficult conversation? Am I like locked up in fear based energy and need to be right, or need this person to change, or am I coming from that loving presence of patience and curiosity and whatnot? That work was profound in terms of shifting how I be in the world, and it had a mix of in person meetups but then a lot of online, regular conversations, which I think is important.

Speaker 1: 58:36

I am working with this woman, rachel Jane Gruver, and she's a phenomenal person based out of Denver, colorado, and her and her husband, dada, started the Awakened School and for them again, it's about their supporting change makers in the world to make their biggest impact, but they're doing it through a very energetic it's energetic meets business combo and I'm learning so much from her about presence in every moment and really feeling filled up in that way and how important that is. So that's another community that I would recommend. And then my others are really masterminds that have come out of other programs working with other teachers and, just like that group finds each other and meeting regularly. They're the folks that really lift me up, that keep me going, that remind me that when I'm wanting to throw it all out the door, what I'm doing is important and that also it's okay to take breaks every once in a while.

Speaker 2: 59:41

I'm intriguing because the coach and the coaching program that I've been part of the last 10 months is based out of Denver, colorado. Oh, there is some interesting stuff in Colorado.

Speaker 1: 59:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 59:57

Yeah, it's all designed for soulful entrepreneurs, to just help you to get that passion project into something that's actually a viable offering. So it's been a real gift and yeah, she's constantly just hiking or skiing, depending on the season. It looks like a pretty phenomenal place to be.

Speaker 1: 1:00:15

That's awesome. I would actually one other came to mind. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention it. It's a female wave of change Canada, which I just became a co-chair of. I've been with the board for a year and again it's bringing in change makers from around the country. It's not like a typical networking business group. It's people that want to be in conversations about how do I make the biggest impact in the world and how do I bring in the feminine principles, the feminine energy, into that space, because there is a calling to balance out these energies that exist. So that's another group we meet monthly. It's just amazing speakers and lots of great things going on there.

Speaker 2: 1:00:58

I'm going to check that one out. Yeah, very cool. And yeah, as part of Royal Rose University, their whole slogan is on change making and their teaching there has just been profound, really next level, leading edge thinking. What I love about it as well most of the professors, all the professors that I've come across there are still practicing as well. They're still very much their feet in, they're still working with people, so everything's so current.

Speaker 1: 1:01:31

Yeah, yeah, brilliant. I have attended one course at Royal Rose but absolutely love that institution, that community. Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 2: 1:01:44

Amy Leah, it's been a pleasure to have you here today. I hope our paths will cross in Victoria. Thank you for all of your gifts, all of your shareings and until we meet again.

Speaker 1: 1:02:00

Yeah, absolutely, and thank you too for this space that you've created. It's beautiful, and keep going Really doing such amazing work in the world.