Rediscovering Connection with Shelley Doyle
9. Rediscovering Connection with Friends, Children, Parents & Partners, with Erin Miller: Fireside with Shelley Ceridwen Doyle
In our first fireside, we welcome my friend Erin Miller, a home teacher, into an intimate chat about the power of connection and how the art of communication can transform our relationships and ultimately, our lives.
We explore how bonds with family and friends can challenge us, foster growth, and lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and each other.
As we navigate through the societal changes brought about by remote work and education, we share how these shifts impact relationships, parenting, and the dynamics of friendships.
We delve into the Canadian education system’s focus on relationships and communication, presenting a unique perspective that serves as food for thought on its influence on parenting.
We also talk about our capacity for holding close friendships.
We wrap up by addressing the challenges we often face in our quest to form genuine connections. The discussion pivots towards the importance of setting boundaries, establishing communication expectations, and maintaining a sense of ownership in relationships. This episode is a deep dive into the world of connection - a journey that could help you rediscover and strengthen your relationships.
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I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your own life!
Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.
Love,
Shelley x
About Your Host
Hi, I'm Shelley Doyle, a Social Wealth Strategist and Connection Coach, helping remote and hybrid leaders who are struggling to retain their high performers, with tools and strategies to reconnect their distributed teams.
I also help people who move or work remotely, to elevate and sustain their social wealth, online/offline - everywhere! Discover More
I am currently working on my MA thesis, combining cutting edge research on social wellbeing and digital health, with two decades in corporate communications, to deliver mind-shifting talks, workshops, and programs around the world.
Find me at TheCommuniverse.com and on LinkedIn.
Global Workshop Tour "Beyond Screens" launches September 2024.
To hear when new episodes drop, subscribe to my weekly newsletter, or check out recent episodes.
In our first fireside, we welcome my friend Erin Miller, a home teacher, into an intimate chat about the power of connection and how the art of communication can transform our relationships and ultimately, our lives.
We explore how bonds with family and friends can challenge us, foster growth, and lead to a deeper understanding of ourselves and each other.
As we navigate through the societal changes brought about by remote work and education, we share how these shifts impact relationships, parenting, and the dynamics of friendships.
We delve into the Canadian education system’s focus on relationships and communication, presenting a unique perspective that serves as food for thought on its influence on parenting.
We also talk about our capacity for holding close friendships.
We wrap up by addressing the challenges we often face in our quest to form genuine connections. The discussion pivots towards the importance of setting boundaries, establishing communication expectations, and maintaining a sense of ownership in relationships. This episode is a deep dive into the world of connection - a journey that could help you rediscover and strengthen your relationships.
---
I hope our conversation inspires you to rediscover connection in your own life!
Subscribe now and let the magic unfold.
Love,
Shelley x
About Your Host
Hi, I'm Shelley Doyle, a Social Wealth Strategist and Connection Coach, helping remote and hybrid leaders who are struggling to retain their high performers, with tools and strategies to reconnect their distributed teams.
I also help people who move or work remotely, to elevate and sustain their social wealth, online/offline - everywhere! Discover More
I am currently working on my MA thesis, combining cutting edge research on social wellbeing and digital health, with two decades in corporate communications, to deliver mind-shifting talks, workshops, and programs around the world.
Find me at TheCommuniverse.com and on LinkedIn.
Global Workshop Tour "Beyond Screens" launches September 2024.
To hear when new episodes drop, subscribe to my weekly newsletter, or check out recent episodes.
And I think part of it. The onus is on us as the sender to take ownership to ask for what we need. Yes, that's what it is, and I think a lot of times we're too busy blaming the other person for not meeting our need, when we haven't actually asked for what we need.
Speaker 3:Exactly so good, right, so good, and this goes back to Martian McLuhan and that communicate your needs and your feelings. So here's the whole thing, and this is all about nonviolent communication. It's like never assume anybody else's needs or feelings you don't know. All you can do is communicate your own needs and your own feelings. Great, hello, this is Rediscovering Connection with me, shelley, and I'm here for my very first official fireside with my good friend Erin. So we are here in this. You're beautiful abode and we were thinking of theme for this fireside. We've been talking about doing a podcast together for ages.
Speaker 1:I like since our first meeting Right.
Speaker 3:Now we're like okay, feels like the right time, and we're thinking we're going to kind of just delve into the topic of friendship, friendship fireside, and just we haven't got an agenda. That's kind of the way I like to roll and just kind of allow the conversation to go in the direction that it wants to go.
Speaker 2:So welcome Erin.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you, so excited for doing that, yeah.
Speaker 3:And we've got. We've got some beautiful homemade cookies here, so I'm quite excited about this, yeah.
Speaker 1:So so the cookies, the story with the cookies. I grew up in a home where my mom was a stay at home mom and that was a very conscious decision between my parents, like it wasn't just kind of like an assumed thing. My mom is actually a fully trained RN. She has a university degree, but what really felt important to them is that one of them would stay home and be available to us kids and that looked like volunteering for field trips or, in my case, what it looked like a lot of times was even if my mom had packed me a lunch. This was back in the days when kids could walk to and from school and like excuse themselves at lunchtime and say I'm going home for lunch Back in the day. And so often I would go home for lunch even when I had a packed lunch, because I just needed that check in and connection with my mom.
Speaker 3:How beautiful to have that available to you. Such my mom recently like mom.
Speaker 1:I just want to say like I never accounted for how that must have affected your daily rhythm that you always made sure you were home at lunchtime for us and available to us If and when you know, and we didn't necessarily and it was always an option in the morning hey, are you coming home for lunch today or do you want me to pack you a lunch?
Speaker 1:Always an option, always open. So my mom loved to bake. My mom taught me to bake. My mom turned 70 at the beginning of September this year and one of my brothers and his wife had the genius idea that we should put together a cookbook of all we call her granny, of all granny's recipes. It's called let's Cook Granny.
Speaker 1:And so, as kids got together and like, dug through our recipe books and oh, what's mom's recipe for this and what's mom's recipe for that? And then for each of the sections we all did a story of like our memory of like mom and cookies, mom and bread, mom and like mom made all our bread after a certain point in our lives and which I was very ungrateful for. I only wanted the store bought, thank you, thank you, we don't need any of this like homemade, homemade bullshit, thank you. Anyway, so this is a mommy's recipe. Well, these are my grandmas. These actually are, although oatmeal, chocolate chip, yes, are like favorite and like staple in my mother's home. And we're growing up yes, those are. Those are not that recipe, but my kids aren't like huge oatmeal chocolate chip kids, which is fine. But after like composing these stories and realizing like just what a special thing it was where my lunch always included home baking always which was partly an affordability thing we're living on one income but partly it was just like.
Speaker 1:This is how my mom invested in us. This was part of how she loved us, was cooking for us, baking for us, and did you get involved? Oh, yeah, yeah, I think like my mom and I are very different people and and my mom really I was I was not. When the doctor said it's a girl, immediately mom's head was filled with a certain like oh, this is going to happen and she's gonna be like this, we'll get to do this and do the duh. And I was not that person. So there was like a real distance and and like personality clash, and when I was little, we had a very difficult relationship.
Speaker 3:Now we have a beautiful relationship, that is taken work, a lot of work on both our parts, and that's it.
Speaker 1:He's gonna be ready to put in the work and notice the growth in the other person to write like I could stay stuck in my childhood version of my mom and I and my mom could stay stuck in the childhood version of my mom and I. But she's grown, I've grown and I mean I admire so much my mom's ability to be humble when she has gotten difficult feedback and not always given, often not given in a respectful way, and she has. She has taken that and made space for that and grown from it.
Speaker 3:And you're such an amazing communicator, Like I really learned I really do. I know you are a phenomenal communicator and I mean I know you educate yourself a lot through the work that you do with children. But that must have really enhanced or enabled that relation, your relationships, to grow to a deeper level. Yeah, I mean my like.
Speaker 1:I think communication and being articulate was highly prized and highly valued and also like, explicitly taught in my family. Our dinner table was the debate table, and so you know like an issue would come up and the expectation was you were going to take a stance. And your stance might be ridiculous, okay, like you might be laughed out of town, but the expectation was you were going to weigh in with your two cents, you were going to defend your two cents. You were not supposed to get overly emotional, that was unacceptable, but you were definitely supposed to stand and hold your ground.
Speaker 2:Well, also, you know, like let's make a little bit of space for the other person.
Speaker 1:That's like, like, if you're going to grade it, that's like a plus energy, a plus communication, you're able to be like oh good point, shelley. Where was like bare minimum expectation is? You're just going to wait into the shit and just like stick in the mud, wow.
Speaker 3:So even if you totally agreed with what they were talking about, did you try and just challenge them anyway to like really get them to dig deeper and defend.
Speaker 1:I didn't. My brothers would do that, but my brothers would sometimes do it also as a form of like. I'm just going to piss you off here. I'm going to like, poke the devil and and see how loud she roars. Yeah, so the cookies are like here.
Speaker 1:I was writing this story about how my mom would, like you know, make muffins and the next day I'd, like you know, have a new muffin tucked in my lunch. And I just thought like even just that language of like the next day I would find one tucked in my lunch and somehow, like, even though I was the one writing that, I was like oh God, that's so special and my kids, like my youngest particularly loves to bake with me. Like last night, at seven o'clock, I'm busting out the cookies and he's like Mom, don't start without me, I don't want to miss out. I'm like well, you better get up there and have a two minute shower then and rush back down. He's like okay, sure enough, that child was down in like five minutes, washed, rinsed, in his pajamas, ready to bake with mom.
Speaker 3:So cute, and the listeners out there. What age is your son? He's seven. Seven he's, your youngest is seven and your oldest is 10 and a half.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And so we made two batches of cookies and here we were like what's next? And do this, and so it's like really like interactive bonding experience. So there's that. So I usually do my baking on Wednesdays. Didn't get there this week, but still did it in time for me in time for you and in time for Friday lunches, cookies tucked into lunch. So like the bonding over food right Like right and drink and eating together. It's such a social experience, it's how we met.
Speaker 3:Yes, so we met at the Royal Bay bakery which was just around the corner from our first property here on the island, my daughter had just lost her very first tooth and started chatting to your boys, yes, so and people do say, like it is kind of easier to meet people when you do have children. So I guess that would be a good example of the serendipity meetings, conversations that do come when you've got little ones around and yeah, it's just become a really organic friendship from from them on. You were in your other property.
Speaker 1:Then, yeah, I was in my townhouse. I don't think we knew we were coming to this house yet, we hadn't got there yet. But yeah, I mean we're both outgoing people. So it's just like we started chatting as the kids were connecting and, you know, being so sweet together, and then it was kind of like the kids were like, can we ever play together? And you were wondering about home learning. Yes, and I was so intrigued to hear about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that you are a teacher for an online school. Yeah, and that isn't something. Yeah, I had been very curious in home learning and when I was at the eco village we had a group of home school parents and children with us and I got to know a few of those quite, quite well.
Speaker 1:But I'd never heard of that way of teaching before and in that yeah, yeah, and I mean it's, it's great, because I think, I think one thing that COVID offered to people was insight into alternative ways of working, alternative ways of schooling, alternative ways of making relationships, maintaining relationships. You know, suddenly video conferencing, which I've been doing for years, and I would say to people oh, I'm going to meet with you on something called zoom, and they're like what's that?
Speaker 1:And I'm like, oh it's kind of like Skype oh, I don't know if I know how to work that Like. Oh, I don't have a working microphone like the amount of like tech troubles. Whereas now you say to people oh, we're going to do an online video call and they're like oh, I know what you're talking about Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Like everyone's got lights and everyone's got like a supersonic video camera.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like it's just it's. It's completely changed that aspect of it. And I mean I've been working as a home learning teacher for since before my oldest was born, like I've been doing this now for about 12 years, yeah.
Speaker 3:And how has this impacted your friendships at work?
Speaker 2:Because you think of teachers?
Speaker 3:there's teachers sitcoms and it is that this camaraderie in the, you know, in the teachers told and they're talking about the top of the class, so do you have that as part of a remote team of teachers?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can say so, the first school I was at, I was lucky enough to live near the people, some of the people that I was working with, so that was nice, in that it was really easy to establish those connections. And we would, you know, oh, let's have a work day together and we would, you know, gather around the table at my house and they would come and work and and we would do that. The school I work with now is really beautiful because, for instance, we get together about twice a year and we get together for about two, two days in the fall and three days in the spring, and the rest of the time we're all working remotely, we do monthly staff meetings and whatnot. So you'd think it would be really hard to develop those relationships. But even like, every time we get together, we make priority for a big group meal.
Speaker 1:We're doing a catered buffet dinner when I go in two weeks. When I went in May, we had a whole, almost a whole day at Granville Island. Oh yeah, and this was you know. It's a required expectation that you, you know it's not kind of like, oh I don't need to be there for that, we're not doing anything important. No, this actually, if you're going to be at anything, is like the most important piece. Because, hey, shelly, when we're working with a student and you know this is a more challenging, complex situation you and I need to have a dialogue and a rapport and an established trust in each other to be able to really support this family. And not only that there's this big awareness around how lonely it can be to be single, solitary, in your four walls looking at your computer screen, and how isolating that can be. So I'm so fortunate to work for an organization that deliberately prioritizes relationship and connection and makes intentional time and opportunities for that.
Speaker 3:Beautiful, yeah, and that just sounds like a really nice hybrid approach. So you know you're going to have those dedicated times. I love like gathering because you always have like really hot tips on podcasts, set on podcasts like you are, you love podcasts, yes, and I love the knowledge sharing that we have when we gather and I mean, I guess some of that is for work and some of that is just your personal development as a mom, wanting to be the best mom that you can possibly be.
Speaker 3:And you know, your way of being with your children is just so beautiful, like you see them as their individual beings, that they are and it's yeah, it's beautiful and I've met a few people here who are definitely that way of thinking and I've read a few, a few books on it myself and it is a different way. It isn't the way that a lot of people around me back home are bringing up their children or the way that I've been exposed to, so it's been a beautiful learning journey because I wasn't wanting to bring my children up in the traditional way and that's why I know when I was on Matleave in the UK, I met a group of homeschooling parents then and I was intrigued about it and it was more I think it's more of their way of being, but I appreciated it. It's not that I don't want to have my own career and have my own time and actually have them being socialized in an educational environment, but it just it wasn't quite the right fit.
Speaker 3:So, I mean so far. I've been super impressed with the education system for elementary here in.
Speaker 3:Canada. They seem to have a lot more, like they call it, pro D days here, which is like a teacher training, I guess they seem to have a lot more and the teachers seem very, very connected with the individual students and, yeah, it does seem to be a lot more about feeling, relationships, communication. Then, necessarily, the learning. At this point, like my daughter's seven going on seven and a half she's only just really reading, and not confidently. She can read, she can read some words. She's not reading whole books yet. But I've been of the approach that she's learning so many other things right now and that will come. We will continue to read through her and give her the space to chime in and then this is naturally gonna grow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean I think there is a growing awareness that children need to not only see the value but have some sort of enjoyment, and the enjoyment is going to build the buy-in and the buy-in is going to build the self-motivation, and the self-motivation once you've found that you found everything. But you're not necessarily going to get there if all you do is just put requirements on them and just say you have to. I mean, I'll be honest, there's so the way our curriculum is structured. In BC it was just restructured a few years ago and now it's structured into like here's our big ideas, here's our skills they're called curricular competencies and then here's our topics, here's our content, and the idea being that you kind of want to look at the overarching big ideas and then say what skills do we want to use to engage with those big ideas and what content do we want to use to build those skills? So it's kind of this reverse engineering process.
Speaker 1:Whereas before we were we weren't in this informational age where, and this instant informational age where you can just Google it, ask Siri, whereas now you know we need to catch up with the fact that kids don't need to hold all this in their head. They need to know how to find it, they need to know how to evaluate it, because there's way too much out there and it's not all trustworthy. Now we need to look at critical thinking skills. You can use anything to build those. So let's get kids excited, let's get kids engaged and to me, I kind of look at it as one step further where let's look at kids as whole humans. Mm-hmm, let's stop thinking that, oh, they're just a kid, they're fine, they'll go along to get along. Well, yeah, they will. And then by the time they're 20 and 30 and 40 and you know they're doing all their therapy and.
Speaker 1:I'm learned everything they learned and all these narratives that they built that you know, their voice didn't matter and they just needed to obey. And sick days you need to be sick enough. There's no such thing as a proactive. You know, let's take care of ourselves and you need to just shove it down and just get through. And you need to turn off and ignore yourself and not follow your body cues.
Speaker 1:And I think that there is a lot of noise, especially as moms. Mom guilt is so real. But I mean, let's generalize it, let's just say parent guilt in general. It's so real and we are all trying so hard to do our best by our kids and also sometimes our kids are so fucking annoying that we can't even stand them like seriously.
Speaker 1:And you know me like I adore my children. Yes, I adore them with like my whole heart. They are the most amazing humans on this earth and sometimes, god damn it, I can't anymore. I just can't and we need to also like. So what does it look like? What does it look like to hold space for ourselves, to take care of ourselves, to be able to say to our kids I'm a person here too, and say to our partners as well, like I think I've really been learning from some of my co-parenting friends the beautiful balance that can be achieved with co-parenting it's like my biggest parenting hack is like especially when your kids are little enough that they don't want to have a real concept of time, you will have like 90% less meltdowns if you just have warnings, but if you just 10, up to 10 warnings.
Speaker 1:However many you can pack in, and you know your kids too, like your kids might need less, my kids, especially my older one, needed a lot, need a lot of prep, a lot of gentle, like we're gonna go this way now communication.
Speaker 3:It's like over communication oh yeah, oh yeah until they say mom, you've already told me that, like I already know, we're doing that you don't need to keep telling me.
Speaker 2:Then it'll be like, okay, then I'll wind them back in let's get on to.
Speaker 3:Let's get on to friendship. Okay, so let's talk about how, like making friends, hmm, can be hard, yeah, especially making the right friends that you can really be yourself with and who you don't feel judged by. You can just be. You can be you and actually get to know the version of you that you are, that you want to be that you, that you want a body more right, because the person you are with is like supporting that, yeah, bracing that I'm like loving that version of you yeah, like finding those people that you feel like after you've hung out with them, you're like oh, that was so good.
Speaker 1:I feel energized and like you feel like you're becoming more yourself. Yeah, when you spend time with them, right where it's like you don't feel like you are needing to go along, to get along and fun. I think we do finding way more than we realize. Way more than we realize. Not only is it hard to recognize when someone else doing it, I think it's hard to recognize when we ourselves are doing it.
Speaker 1:We don't often recognize it until it's in reflection but, life is so busy so many of us don't either have time or create time.
Speaker 3:We're so busy filling our time or dissociating and disconnecting and then we're not actually reflecting yes, and then if we have the alone time, then either you're hatching up on whatever TV show you wanted to watch, the had a chance to fit the last weeks yes, and binging eight episodes.
Speaker 1:Thank you or or.
Speaker 3:Checking your social media channels. Responding to emails yeah, or and or not.
Speaker 1:Sitting down in intention to reflect on the week, looking out at the water, losing track of time, like 14 year old me was so wise, without knowing it, to just like make time and space to. I would do something called free writing where I would just write literally whatever would come up. And I remember being faced with some harder decisions and like just feeling so wrestling around them like I don't know what to do, and so I'd be like, okay, I'm just gonna write it out. And the more I wrote and the more I wrote and read back and wrote, and wrote, and wrote and cried like you need to ugly cry, the more it just became clear to me you keep writing down this variations on the same theme and you're like, damn, that's not what I want to choose, but it's what I am choosing, like it.
Speaker 3:You know, oftentimes what we don't necessarily want to choose is the thing that we need to choose and I mean I have never written so much as what I have since I've been here, okay, like, oh, my goodness on the eye, prolific, I don't have the capacity to read back all of my writings, okay, and I'm not doing myself justice by reading back. And then I've spoken to someone and they're like don't worry, like that is your way of processing, okay, allow it, like don't feel like you need to read back everything, like just, it's a process. Yeah, and it is, I guess, me communicating with myself, because I've worked in communications the last 20 years like I've always written. I wrote poems and songs as a child.
Speaker 1:I've always written, but it is, I'm writing a lot like you're just writing, you're writing in whatever maybe you're typing. I find it really hard, especially like because I was saying my turn and I guess physically writing for me, like for long periods, is actually painful for me now. So like I would probably tight or like actually probably my form of journaling now is Marco Polo with my cousin and my best friend.
Speaker 1:That is my journaling. But yeah, like, and I go back and rewatch my Marco Polo's, but can you put notes on them so that you pay the exorbitant membership fee which I just can't? Yet I can't. I don't know if you do, but I can't. So, marco, Polo.
Speaker 3:Should we touch on Marco Polo? Because that, yeah, this is an interesting topic, because there's not many of my friends who are on Marco Polo. You're one of only two people that I speak to regularly, okay, and then? I have another few that are on there, but rarely on there.
Speaker 1:Can I just say I love that.
Speaker 3:I'm like limited a dish yeah, yeah, I know, and it's nice and it's not okay. So what I like about Marco Polo and I've just figured this out recently is that with texting, there's some kind of like need or you feel like you need to respond immediately, and I think the same with WhatsApp you feel like you need to respond immediately and you not suffer from this email doesn't oh yeah, like you don't expect a response anytime soon it's like the response comes cool, yeah, but you don't it's as good as snail now, like it is, if they even read it.
Speaker 3:So, marco Polo and it's not like you're always ready to do a video message- but, it's always, it's always lovely to receive it. Okay, and then you'll receive it and then be like, oh, I'm gonna Marco and then, I'm like I do like it and then I might watch it and then be like, well, I'm gonna respond, but then yeah and then when the like little takes you, then I'll be like, oh, no, no, like yeah, watch, okay, I get like a double, double dose of Erin, yeah, oh.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that, yeah, and so like, for me it just depends who I'm talking to. So my best friend, christine and I, depending on what's going down in our lives, so like my most recent breakup, leading up to it, after it like, leading up to it, the stuff that was going around, where I was like, ooh, I need to have a conversation with this person, and I was like really nervous for this conversation. And then then he hit me out of left field and I was like I'm sorry, excuse you what, and then we had a follow-up conversation. So leading up to that follow-up conversation, I was like really need a process. Christina blessed her.
Speaker 1:We sat in front of our computers for the day with our phones propped up beside us, and we Marco back and forth constantly, mmm, constantly the whole day, like we may as well have been on a face-to-face. But what I love about Marco is it creates this intentional listening space. Yes, you can't interrupt the person. So then what I do is I start taking notes and like she takes notes, or like my cousin will take notes and I'll take notes for my cousin, I'm like, ooh, I need to respond to that about this thing between her and her partner and I want to respond to this about her and her kids, and she asked me this question so I need to make sure I respond to that. It's really intentional communication because Christina and I like we'll leave each other 15 messages, she'll leave me 15, I'll leave her 15, then she'll leave me 5 and I'll leave her 10 and like, like we are heavy Marco users and this is.
Speaker 3:I mean, the work that I do with clients, yeah, is really helping them to embed these relationships, yeah, their lives. And like, what a beautiful case study I have with my friend who's?
Speaker 1:doing this so effectively.
Speaker 3:I like that, yeah you know you are doing this beautifully and I know I put a press release together a couple of months ago and I'm like I'm basically in my program could meet could mean like it could be a disruptor in that people won't necessarily need coaches or or some therapist like you know you have specialists of both right, yeah definitely take you to a place that you're close in a circle.
Speaker 3:Yeah, not, yeah, really, if we all get this right and we build our circles yeah, intention, and we give time and space, yeah, to a small number of people and get that reciprocated like that's all we need, yeah by even thrive.
Speaker 1:Well, because this is what keeps coming up for me as I listen to you is this theme of like you write it out but you don't necessarily listen to it. You say it on Marco, but you don't listen back to it. I, my kids, will throw something out there that to the outside listener, might sound quite concerning in terms of like, what it is they're saying or who they're saying it about, and it it sounds like a big statement and I learned from an early stage with both of them that it's not that they don't mean what they're saying, but it's really important for all of us to have a space where we can just get it out of our body, we can just throw it out there into the universe. So, like when my kids were little and, you know, still adjusting to certain things, and they would say things that they were upset about that might have happened at the other home and they would just need to vent about it, and so I would okay, that's hard and I'm sorry that happened, and and you know, and I need you to talk to him about such and such, and I say okay, and then I would just leave it and I would give it at least 24 hours and then it would come back to them and I would say so. You shared this with me yesterday. Do you still need me to follow up about that?
Speaker 1:And nine times out of ten the answer was no. I'm good now processed it. They just need to get it out. They just need a space to like, throw it at the wall and like. So we, as adults, we need those friends who we can just throw it out, no matter how outrageous, no matter how much. We need to like spew vitriol at the person who wrong us and like we we're not gonna spew it at them, but I need to spew it somewhere and I need someone to hold that for me. And having friends who can hold those spaces or who can hold like Jesus I don't know if I should still be in my relationship or you know, whatever it is like we could throw these big things out there and to have someone just hold it for us, not judge it, not try to solve it, not not trying to sign, meaning to it, nothing, but just go, yeah and get curious about it.
Speaker 3:And this is like I, when I did my coaching program and I was basically learning how to how how to coach and there's a. You know it's. It's quite simple once you learn the tactics yeah, like if everyone was just, yeah, bought the simple practices of coaching. Yeah, which will include below yes, if everyone was just taught to coach and that was part of the friendship agreement with your close friends. Like, don't feel like you have to give a solution. Know that the individual has to have agency over the decisions that they make.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just need to be able to talk and sometimes just heard it, said back to them like, oh yes, that's so interesting, you're you saying, and you're like, oh shit, I didn't say that. Oh damn, I said that. And then, like you hear yourself, like you read your journal back, you listen to your Markle, back your friend repeats back to you and you're like, oh, and either you might, you know, kind of like turn it around and look at a different way and go like, no, I'm not ready to see it that way and maybe, maybe you need to hear it back like five different times. You said it five times, you need to hear it back five times. You're like, okay, keep saying that, what does that mean? Or you need to like hear yourself and know the message that you're sending out and you're like that's not actually what I'm meaning to say, so I need to change how I'm communicating my message, like it's so valuable, right?
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the reflective listening. I think even like, as you learn to do it for other people, you learn to hear yourself.
Speaker 3:Something that I'm also noticing myself. I went to the most amazing workshop last week with a guy called Mead Simon. Okay, he's quite a name. I feel like it should be Simon Mead, Like I still like I know right, he's done a funky thing.
Speaker 1:He's reversed his name. Ha, maybe he has. I love it.
Speaker 3:He's got a, what's he called. So he makes this like amazing fashion pieces, Like he's got. He's got some in galleries around the world, but it's all. What do they call it? I can't remember the name. He does a lot with jewelry as well, and it's. I can't remember the name of it, but I'm going to remember and I'm going to include a link to him because he's very, very cool. Anyway so he did this workshop on creativity Okay, unleashing your creativity, yeah and he thought is that we are all made?
Speaker 2:to be creative beings.
Speaker 3:We are made by a creator, we are made to be creative beings and don't have creative expression, and he talks about the difference between an amateur and a professional and the like. In French, like amateur, it literally means for the love.
Speaker 3:Oh, it's not a proficiency thing, you're just doing it for the love of the heart, so you could be like amazing at it, but you're doing it for the love, like you don't care about the money, the professional, really, that just means you're getting paid for whatever it is. Oh, I love that. So, doing it for the love, and it kind of releases the pressure of it being good. Now, something he said which really struck me was that all of the greats copied until they found their style. Yeah, you copy other people that you admire Another French word, I think, and more maybe that's love Until you find your style.
Speaker 3:So we were just, we were talking about creativity in like all the different ways that we can be creative, and it's interesting that we're talking about, like I'm just writing, writing, writing it's like, well, what about if I started painting instead? For that painting, I was saying in my mind I was using that as time for working through whatever the thoughts are. But normally I'm writing down and the words are not read anyway. Yeah, yeah. So could I look back at that picture that I created? I'm not an artist, I'm not very good and know what I was thinking, because that's what they always say when you dissect art, but like this is what they were going through. Oh God, I hate that shit.
Speaker 1:No, no, I feel like that is so presumptive. I reject it. There is what you can get out of that piece of art. There is what is going on for you. That's looking at someone else and pretending like you know what they're thinking. Absolutely not I did.
Speaker 3:English literature.
Speaker 2:I did English literature as an A level.
Speaker 3:I kind of laughed along with that because we were dissecting and I would think at the time they were probably just writing.
Speaker 1:I'm going to tell you a wonderful story. So when I was in my first year at college, I got super sick right before Christmas and I wrote an exam like just so sick, and it wasn't until like I'd been at my parents for quite a few days and I was starting to get better. And I'm thinking back on this exam and I remembered what I'd written on this college level exam and it was something to the effect that, like some very famous poet was basically blowing smoke up his ass.
Speaker 2:I literally put the words on my college exam.
Speaker 1:He was basically blowing smoke up his ass and I was like oh yeah, I did not do.
Speaker 2:well, I don't even know what my mark was yet, but I guarantee I did not do well on that one. What college professor is going to be impressed at this student?
Speaker 3:I imagine if you at least remember the name of whoever it was you were talking about, you would have got a point, because I think that has been the thing, isn't it? You get points for memory.
Speaker 1:Well and that comes back to what I was saying earlier about schooling and reverse engineering and this recognition that that's the wrong place to be putting our emphasis- Memory and when we don't even need to use our memory because we've all got access to it's a false economy too, right.
Speaker 1:It's a false economy because it's pretending that people who have a good memory are the smartest, and that is absolutely false, because we know that some of the most brilliant minds are people with dyslexia. One of the markers of dyslexia is challenges with working memory. Working memory is your ability to hold and work with new information. So many times I will have parents come to me and say I don't understand. I'm so frustrated. I feel like I've literally had some parents who were like I feel like my child is being difficult. This makes no sense. One day they've got it, we've gone over and over and over it, and then we come back the next day and they're like I don't know. And I'm like, hmm, okay, let's just reframe this. Here's what I hear is going on for your child. And what's going on for your child is it's as though their brain is writing and disappearing ink.
Speaker 1:This is nothing intentional they're doing this is not because they are not focusing. This is nothing that they have decided to do or not do.
Speaker 1:This is the way their brain functions and their brain needs way more repetition than you have patience for, than you think is reasonable, than they want to put in the effort for this is what their brain needs, and so it's a completely false economy to think just because you can remember you're smarter than the person who can't remember, because the person who can't is going to come up with a million adaptive strategies to help themselves remember. They are some of the most creative problem solvers and thinkers on this planet. They are some of the brilliant business people on this planet, or just like mine. Wow, it's very cool. And so this idea that, like just because you were able to remember and I couldn't means that you are better at something.
Speaker 3:And I know we've spoken before about the 10,000 hours thing to gain mastery in the topic.
Speaker 3:You need about 10,000 hours and then, you can talk about it fluidly, right, you don't need to be looking back at your books and I know when I've done. I've done a course through UC Berkeley on the science of happiness and the science of happiness at work and I'd spent about a year and a half studying and getting the qualification and just thought, yeah, I'm going to be teaching the science of happiness and of course, and in reality, it's like, well, yeah, I could have, I could have created a program and started regurgitating everything that I'd learned in that, but it wasn't my knowing, right.
Speaker 3:I didn't know it yet. It's like I learned it and I'd take the boxes and.
Speaker 1:I completed it.
Speaker 3:But I hadn't embedded the learning. And this is me, as an adult brain, knowing that unless I was looking at it, unless I'd had those nudges to be able to take myself through the delivery, I'm just delivering someone else's content effectively. It's not my own work, it's just memorization. And these kids, when they've got so many different subjects to learn and different elements on all of these subjects all the time, it's like how are they expected to retain all of this knowledge, right? That expectation seems unreal.
Speaker 2:Unreasonable, really yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So that's where kids these days are at an advantage, because there is starting to be this recognition that, yes, it's important to know how to spell. Also, what do you do as an adult? You turn on Grammarly, you run through your spell check. You don't have to run through spell check. That's not even a thing anymore. You don't have to run through spell check. Spell check is automatic because your word is underlined in red and then you click on it and your thing tells you how to do it. So it's not even that extra step of like oh shoot, I forgot to run spell check.
Speaker 3:But we don't want to dumb us down as a nation or a civilization. No, no, no, that's not a thing.
Speaker 1:That's not a thing, okay. So my oldest, my oldest, that kid is working so hard at his spelling this year and before I had met with his teacher, his teacher had given him a comment when he got a mark that was lower than expected on his spelling test, saying oh, buddy, I think you got to study a little bit more. And my son was like and he's not one to speak up for himself in the moment, but that comment was so like, oh damn, because what he had done and what the teacher didn't know is he has developed this habit for himself. This kid is in grade five. He decided on his own that he is going to set his alarm for six am on Friday mornings After he has done Wednesday spelling practice, thursday spelling practice.
Speaker 1:He sets his alarm for six am on Friday morning so that he can get up early enough to have his shower run through his words at least three times while he eats breakfast, gets ready for school and then goes out the door. Oh my goodness, that's all of his own. Oh well, I mean, I'll give his father a little credit there too. That's definitely a move his father would pull as well. And so for my son he was like you don't understand. I did, but he'd forgotten his spelling work at home.
Speaker 2:So he can also verify that?
Speaker 1:no, no, no, I did do all the activities Well, my son has a learning disability in written expression and spelling. Spelling is always going to come harder to that brain, no matter how hard he works at it. And what I'm working on developing with him is like listen, buddy, a spelling test is only one way of checking in on what words you already know and what words you need to look up. Guess what I do when I don't know a word, I look it up. Who cares? What he now wants to do is he wants to take the spelling test with everybody else, because that's what everyone's doing. He doesn't want to be bothered. He wants to take it on Friday, Then he wants to continue studying for Saturday and possibly Sunday, retake the test on Sunday and then also hand that into his teacher and see if his mark improves.
Speaker 3:And this is bringing something up. So we went on the global Joe Dispenza walk for the world together a week nearly two weeks ago now, I know and we had just such a beautiful, rich conversation afterwards when we were walking along with that incredible 17 year old, that human love that really incredible guy.
Speaker 3:We were at St Millie and you said something really incredible about this idea of inclusivity and it was a perspective that I had not heard before. Okay, so what did you say? So what I can recall you saying and you can correct me and say what your actual view is was about and maybe it was him as well saying about rather than giving people that have learning difficulties, giving them the extra time in exams, why not let everybody know that this extra time is available if you need it, right? So people don't need to be running off of these diagnoses to them, belabelling themselves, right something so that they can get this extra right attention, but just let it. Allowing everybody to have that, yeah, and those that complete it if they want to leave, they're in their power to leave. And those that need the time, have the time and give what you need to complete the exam.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean like I hope that within both of my son's educational careers that time tests become a thing of the past. I totally understand that. Like, especially within the structure of a classroom, that there is a schedule and you know time is finite and the clock is a real thing. At the same time, time tests to a certain degree are bullshit because all our brains work differently and just because I can't come up with the knowledge as fast as you can doesn't mean I don't know it. It doesn't mean that I won't be able to recall it. And again, like even going back to the piece about consent, and like knowing when to call it quits, like here's a basic life skill knowing when to say I'm done. I've given this my best right.
Speaker 1:So it's not like an infinite thing. And what child is gonna sit there for infinite time? If they do? We have another conversation to be had. We have another skill to explore. I will say that my oldest son might be one of those, although you know everyone's gonna get bored at some time.
Speaker 1:Everyone is going to meet their limit. So I don't think we need to worry that, just because we don't have a time test, that kids aren't gonna know when to call it quits. If we're raising kids to be in touch with their bodies, if we're raising kids not to squash it down, if we're raising kids to be able to say no, to understand that if they say no, they will be met with okay, or, at the very least, tell me more, at the very least be met with curiosity. Kids will say no when they need to say no, and we should be teaching kids how to say no when they need to say no and then accepting their no. That is not easy. I will tell you from experience, giving my kids as much agency as I do, I have this conversation with my parents.
Speaker 1:No, the way a parent is not easy. It is not easy. There are times where I'm just like, oh man. And there are times, too, where I'm like, god damn it, I'm your parent and you'll just fucking listen to me. I don't say it in all its words, but in my head, right, and it just yeah, like there are times where my ego is way in the way of what is happening. But that's my ego, that's like my thing of like it should be this way, okay, well, like stop shitting on me, Like just stop it, like it's all over the place, and so like I really think, sorry, I can't do that.
Speaker 3:I can't do that. Yeah, yeah, that's gonna be on a T-shirt.
Speaker 2:Stop shooting on me. I'm shooting T-shirts. We can't this part has to be cut.
Speaker 1:This part has to be cut. We're taking a pause, we're taking a pause and then I'm going to back through, but I have so many T-shirts, not this vulva.
Speaker 2:That's a T-shirt. That, okay, I've worked it out, Shelley.
Speaker 3:I think they're not. I have an umbrella. Stop shooting on me.
Speaker 2:Oh, I have an umbrella. The umbrella starts.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:But I'm just.
Speaker 2:I love you so much I've made you jump in, so sorry. I love you so much.
Speaker 3:For shitting on me. We shoot all the time on ourselves and other people, okay, and I know in the past I've definitely seen this and it's like change the should to a could I could do this, sure and okay. So a big one that's coming up for me is birthdays, okay, and there are so many people in our worlds who all have birthdays, right, and I love birthdays. I love being with people, I love being in celebration, I love the feeling of celebrating someone when I'm there, but I feel like there's a lot of societal pressure on what we should be doing, yes, and a lot of guilt when we're not. We don't have the capacity to.
Speaker 1:And I think that is a lovely connection point and tie in to what you're saying around let's not feel like we should have X number of connections and people. Let's not feel like we should be able to be intimate with 50 people and then we feel guilty. Let's actually reframe and ask ourselves how many feels good for you, because maybe for you you feel good with more people than I do. I have realized for myself. I mean, oh, dark times in my teens, dark times when I felt like I should have been out doing different things or I should have gotten that invite but that wasn't really the crowd that I wanted to run with, but I should have, et cetera. Oh, twisty spaces. And the older I get, the more I'm like you know what I am so fulfilled by these lovely people that I do have in my life and I realized that I don't actually have the capacity Me personally. I realize I don't have the capacity for lots of intimate connections. I am not somebody.
Speaker 1:I dated this one guy who he seemed to be like the 50 person Also. He seemed kind of exhausted by it. He was shitting a lot on himself and that was a place that he was exploring. But for me I just I kind of looked at it and I thought gosh, I don't even know where I'm gonna fit within that because In his fears, yeah, right, yeah. And I remember asking very early on, saying like do you even have room?
Speaker 3:for this.
Speaker 1:This is the guy that lost his brother right, yeah, and not to shut on him, not to say that what he had was wrong, not to say that you know there was anything wrong with what he was doing. If it was working for him, that's beautiful and I celebrate that for you. I'm just not sure that I am that social. I'm a very social person, but I'm a very social person with a select few people. I love meeting new people. Also, I think I have a hard time holding a lot of people at once. I like a few people deep. Yes, that's me, and that's not everybody, and that's okay.
Speaker 3:So-, but I think you come up with a really valid point, and this is part of the conversation that I have with Robin Dunbar.
Speaker 3:It's like, yes, these people can think that they've got 50, 50 good friends, good close friends. The reality is that unless there is a tear in your social system which normally naturally occurs, we don't normally have to think about it. Unless there is that tear, then all 50 of them are only getting a very small chunk of you Absolutely. And it's like if you want to go deep then you need to have less in those inner circles, you need to free up some energy.
Speaker 1:And I think what happens is it takes big life events often tragic, hard shit happens for us to reevaluate what we have. Where what we had, it felt like it was working, everything was grooving, it was chiming. The shit hits the fan and suddenly we realize and we go inward and a lot of stuff gets burned up in the process, not because we didn't enjoy it, not because it wasn't wonderful, not because it's a commentary on that person or anything like that. It's just we don't have the capacity and in order to survive, we have to distill, and sometimes I don't even know that we're totally aware of what's going to be left over. It's not even necessarily a completely intentional process of like I'm cutting you and I'm keeping you. No, it's like organic. It's an organic distillation process and what is left at the end?
Speaker 3:What I found very much related to that was over the pandemic and I'd been living in Wales for probably six years before it began, maybe even longer, and I got some nice friends there. But then when we were locked down, I was more speaking to my old friends that I was used to speaking to on the phone. Then the ones that were near me who were relatively new friends because proximity didn't matter and it's like they were my kind of deeper, longer term friends, whereas the ones there were my they're right in front of your face they were in front of a chair, but they're almost like.
Speaker 3:It sounds kind of cruel but it's kind of transitional friends at the time. It's like you don't know yet that you're going to go the distance. Some of them I've known for a year.
Speaker 1:Do you think also, though, it could come down to familiarity of ways of relating, so, as in, you already had this system and familiarity of relating across distance that was already established?
Speaker 3:You didn't have to build that. I didn't have a telephone relationship with these people there.
Speaker 1:And unless they were somebody that you really Like, your energy had just really aligned with and you're like, oh, I am craving Shelly's energy right now, I'm going to ring her on the phone Then Then, yeah, that does fall off.
Speaker 3:Ok, so let's just go back to the Marco, because the other person that I Marco very regularly is a friend that has ADHD and she's basically she hates texting and she basically said that Marco Polo has really helped her to realise who her friends are. Oh wow, because it's really the only channel that she's comfortable with and she's the same like she doesn't need herself to be fully made up to go on Marco Polo all times a day and the people that have that relationship with her she's like you're my people, because you allow me to be seen, to be heard and to come where I'm at Right, to come where I'm at. So she's a huge champion for Marco Polo. So I'm intrigued if it is potentially a thing for people with ADHD. It's a channel that you can work with.
Speaker 1:See, but again like going back to the stop shooting on me. You, I do not immediately reply to text messages. You don't immediately reply to text messages. No, I know right, and I don't know how that feels for you, but I don't. I generally don't open the text message unless I know I'm able to reply to it right away. Because if I've opened it then I don't have that blue dot queuing me that there's something there for me to take care of.
Speaker 2:It's the same with my emails.
Speaker 1:In fact I will often, especially at work, I will open an email, I will read the email and then I will mark the emails unread so that I know to come and sell the email. Yes, Notification yeah, and Google Nudges. Thank God for Google Nudges, where it sends it back to your inbox being like, oh, you never heard back from this person or you never responded to this person. It's been X amount of days.
Speaker 3:Three days, yeah, three sometimes more yeah, interesting, interesting. So this is. I think this is a really good exercise in communication with friends. Ok, so the expectation of text messaging so I said a little bit earlier that I feel like text messages, people expect an instant response. Yeah, and, like you just flagged, I'm not an instant responder. Hands up, I'm not. Yeah, and I don't expect that in response, neither Right. Something that's come up recently, excuse me with another friend is should we start flagging on messages, so if it is a text message, or is it a WhatsApp message, like just having an inside code with friends, basically that, like it's just a conversation.
Speaker 3:Like any response right now, or if there is something that is more like I'm actually dealing with some shit right now.
Speaker 1:Oh and.
Speaker 3:I could really use a friend, like what could be a code within that, to say normally I won't put anything, but if it's something that I'd actually really love you to read, because if you're like, oh, I know I always read the little prelim blur Like I have that type of notification Right.
Speaker 1:So what code do?
Speaker 3:you use.
Speaker 1:Usually for me like I would say hey, shelly, no rush, and then get into a message OK, so let's co-create for ourselves right here. Or if it's like I feel like there's certain key phrases we already have.
Speaker 3:But for other people that wouldn't have, because I know we're quite good at communication between ourselves but a lot of people that listen to this might not be this honed in on comms and like no disrespect to anyone, Like I've been working in comms for 20 years you kind of you have to be very good communicator for your work, but other people it's like think about coding your communication with friends.
Speaker 3:Because if you are there needing an instant reply from friends and then your friend doesn't reply to you, that's not to say they don't absolutely love you and respect you, it's that they don't work on this immediate response requirement. However, if you do phrase it in a way that you don't really respect you, you can phrase it in a way so that you do come up, say could really do with a quick response, or a code that you come up between yourselves to say this is an amber Ooh.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Red alert 9-1.
Speaker 1:I mean I put it in subject line at work sometimes, like if I really need you to look, I'll say like response needed, or I'll say urgent. Or please read Like and I think part of it. The onus is on us as the sender, to take ownership to ask for what we need. Yes, that's what it is, and I think a lot of times we're too busy blaming the other person for not meeting our need when we haven't actually asked for what we need.
Speaker 3:Exactly so. Good, right, and this goes back to Marshall McLuhan and the communicate your needs and your feelings. So here's whole thing, and this is all about nonviolent communication. It's like never assume anybody else's needs or feelings.
Speaker 2:You don't know.
Speaker 3:All you can do is communicate your own needs and your own feelings.
Speaker 1:Right and also in that. See, here's the thing. I think we I think we spend a lot of energy trying to guess like, ooh, is she mad at me? Ooh, is my partner? Did he look at me a certain way? Like I know for myself in relationships because of my past trauma and history, I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Speaker 1:So my most recent relationship I would say to my partner like here's what I'm working through in my head and I just want to be really clear. I know this is in my head and it's like I have two voices in my head and one is trying to stir shit up. The other one is like Aaron, we are okay here. There was no look. And even if there was a look, it does not mean what you think it was, just breathe. We can trust this person Right.
Speaker 1:And and I think like first of all, having that forward facing conversation with our partner, let them know that if I'm acting off or weird, my partner knows that my brain is being really active and twisty right now and really noisy for me, and my partner can choose to show up in that space with more compassion, more understanding, more grace, and that makes me feel more safe and that makes me feel more valued and that deepens our connection. My partner can also choose to be like you are fucking batshit crazy and we're good here, like peace out, and that also gives me information, because that's not a person I want to be with, right, like that sucks, that feels awful for me, but it's also good information. So like I don't think either outcome is good or bad, it's information. So we need to take ownership, like you say, to ask for what we need in any sort of relationship romantic work, partnership, like you know, whatever it might be we need to just receive. How the person shows up is information. Is this a person I feel safe with? Is this a person that I can continue being vulnerable with? Is this a person who deepens our connection or who distances from me? And also that when the person hasn't communicated a problem, it's not on us to assume there is one. Maybe there is.
Speaker 1:My last breakup hit me out of left field. Nothing, nothing of a problematic nature, have been communicated. The total opposite had been communicated. So I can sit here and I can guess when did the problems happen? What were they? Or I can just say you know what this felt like a really wonderful and safe relationship where I felt really seen, and although I don't understand what happened it's not my responsibility to figure it out because I wasn't given that information, I was not invited in to that space and it doesn't matter why. I truly, I personally truly feel like it has nothing to do with something I did wrong or something I didn't do, that it has nothing to do with me. It is work that that other person has said they needed what to do.
Speaker 3:And Brené Brown talks to this in her book Dare to Lead. So she says that when we don't have, when there's missing information, we make up stories, and this is just something our brain naturally does to filling the gaps that are not provided to us, but because she's identified this, she uses this with her teammates, with her husband, and she says this is a story that my brain is making up right now. So, like exactly so you know, you almost distance yourself from totally what is occurring in here.
Speaker 1:You're recognizing I might be wrong here. Ah, this is the mystery of my brain's waking and then they'll go oh no, that's like.
Speaker 3:That's nowhere near the truth. This is what's happening.
Speaker 1:And then you have to be able to let your narrative go and that's the other half of it, right? Like when I'm saying to my partner like it's like I feel like two voices are happening here and I really want to be clear that this is happening in my head. I don't want you doing something wrong, like I just want you to know, like my brain is being twisty right now. Yes, you know, and I feel like that's an important distinction and it's important ownership, for for me as the person who's making shit look to be, like my brain is making shit up right now and I don't know. You haven't done anything wrong here, but also my brain is being really noisy right now. Right, that's important communication, and it's important to say like here's what I'm making up right now. Here's, here's what happens when X happens. My brain automatically makes up this story, which is also important communication, because when you behave this way, shelly, my brain automatically makes up that you're upset with me.
Speaker 1:When you behave this way, my brain automatically makes up that we're good. Both of those might be false, so you need to hear that like ooh, that behavior doesn't land and makes this person feel unsafe. This behavior does make them feel safe, but that's actually not what I intended. I was really fucking pissed off at you and I was just spawning Right. Like it goes, the ownership goes both ways in that. Like you need to understand how your behavior affects someone else and someone else needs to understand that the way they're perceiving your behavior might be off, but if we don't share that information with each other, it's what a beautiful thing to be able to feel safe enough.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in either your relationship with your partner, yeah, with a friend, with a colleague, to own that. This is the story that my brain is telling me. Yeah, so like not be the brain but be the observer. Yeah, not judge it, just hold it Be the watcher of what is going on and be curious enough to go. Is there any validity in what my brain is telling me right now? Could you help to fill in the blank? Totally. That's going to help us to understand each other better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think like I hope my goal is that, at a certain point in self growth and self confidence and self belief, that I don't need to feel safe with you in order to let you know how you affect me. I can love myself enough to know that you don't need me. You don't need to make me feel safe for me to know that it's okay for me to tell you this is how you affect me and when you do this, this is how I feel and this is where my brain goes. I feel like it's an act of self love Because I'm honoring myself. Yeah, but at the beginning stages it's really scary and you do need to practice it with people in your safe life. That's so, so important.
Speaker 3:And then, once you do, you're saying maybe if you date again that you can feel comfortable.
Speaker 2:if it's not, if you date again, did you shut, I mean listen, if it ever happens in God's timing, the next 50 years, one day when you choose, when, you choose to go Another day because you've done this work.
Speaker 3:you're saying that even when you're getting used to being with a new person again, you can feel in your power to kind of have those kind of conversations because you rehearse them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah In previous. So here's a weird thing that happens for me in romantic partnerships I, in the beginning, when the stakes are not high, the stakes are just like cool person but like we'll see where it goes, whatever. It's so easy for me to be myself and it's so easy for me to call them out on shit and like be my loud In your face somewhat like sometimes antagonistic, sometimes arrogant self, and then as the stakes increase, that gets harder because I get worried that maybe I'm too much. So it takes more and like more and more commitment for me to be true to myself. But when things have ended, I call it like an accountability conversation. Okay, all right, listen, I'm not here to persuade you of anything and I'm absolutely not here to change your mind.
Speaker 3:But you have an exit interview, oh I fully do.
Speaker 1:Oh, 1000%, yeah, yeah, like here's, here's how shit went on my end and you need to know, like you need to know, how this landed, depending on how the ending went, the last two endings, there was absolutely an exit interview.
Speaker 3:And you also have them with work. Why not relationships?
Speaker 1:It's important for somebody to know how they're, how they chose to end things, how their actions within the situation affected somebody, because, while it may not change anything in the future I never hope at the very least it affects them on a level of like, oh like. At the very least I hope it gives them pause. Best case scenario. I hope they do different next time.
Speaker 3:But what about with friends? So we have an excellent.
Speaker 1:I do have an ex best friend. I have well too. I mean more, but like did you have an exit?
Speaker 3:interview for them, though I was like oh, I got down. Oh, hey, the one I tried to. Of course he did and he goes to did, and he goes to and, yeah, like he was hosted more and more and more like and I was like I don't know what he was. A friend?
Speaker 1:No, every month it called in for for my side, for my side, if I'm honest like we got along so well, we had so much fun together, our kids got along. I was like, damn, this would be easy, I would be attracted to that person and just live there. For me, that's okay Way to beautiful friendship. Until we didn't, and I had no idea. All I had was like I know things seemed off this night, but I don't really know what happened, and this person will not return my calls.
Speaker 3:Full on. I'm like, hey, I'm going to be your best friends, and then don't show just ghosted you.
Speaker 1:A little less zilt show and a little more like yeah, because it, yeah, we could hang out. And then like hey, well, how about now? And then nothing. And then like hey, I'd really. Then I like I leave a message, like hey, I'd really love to chat with you, Just like floating some plans, Give me a call, no return, Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I bet this isn't unusual. I imagine this happened.
Speaker 1:Because it really sucked, yeah, yeah, really sucked. And and then we had a mutual friend who really wanted us, because the mutual friend understood what it or like new, not understood, but new what happened Really wanted us to have like reconciling conversation. I was like listen, you don't understand. First of all, I don't care what he has to say nothing happened, nothing happened.
Speaker 1:He had drastically drastically and his girlfriend had drastically drastically misinterpreted and misunderstood some comments that I had made that had nothing to do with him, and had understood my, misunderstood my intentions towards him and what that conversation was, and and assigned.
Speaker 1:And so this mutual friend wanted us to have a conversation and I really loved this mutual friend and she kept badgering and badgering and badgering till finally I was like, fine, fine, plan the dinner party, I'll have the conversation. I can tell you, first of all, I'm not interested in what he has to say. He can explain his side of the story, but I am telling you right now we will never be friends like we were before because I do not choose to keep people who treat me this way in my life. I'm very choosy with the people I'm close with and people who behave that way and people who treat me that way. They don't make the cut, absolutely not. I don't choose that. So we can have a conversation, but I'm also telling you my boundaries about that.
Speaker 3:And this goes into, I guess, the idea of intentional friendship.
Speaker 1:I'm very choosy about who my friends are, about who my close circle is. And as you know that your time is limited and you prefer quality over quantity, and when you can't be bothered, when we've had a friendship for years, years of closeness, and I've babysat your children and you know I have shown up for you in so many different ways.
Speaker 3:Was there something you said? You had a girlfriend. Was there something in that that shifted?
Speaker 1:No, it changed. It changed which you know. I mean, I think, like things do change when you get a new partnership and that's, you know, with my friendship group growing up, it was always very mixed.
Speaker 3:We had guys and girls in one big friendship group. And then you grow up and everyone finds partners and then it becomes like the girls get together for Hindus and baby showers, even the oh, what do you call them? I don't know girls or me, so Hindus before they get married, the girls get together, oh.
Speaker 2:Staget, oh, staget.
Speaker 1:So we have Staget, which actually I love Hindu more because ours is a derivative of the Stag party. Why do we need to like no, thank you.
Speaker 3:I love Hindu.
Speaker 1:I love that. No, we don't need to be a Staget.
Speaker 3:Bringing the Hindu in North America, please Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2:Own it, love it, love it.
Speaker 3:So that was it. So growing up, I feel like once we hit our 30s and I got, I settled down with my partner and have my children.
Speaker 3:It's like, well, when I catch up with my friends, we'd be catching up with my friends, and then my friends, girlfriends and wives and actually the guys who were part of our friendship group we didn't actually get to see them all that much anymore. So it does change the dynamics and as we're getting older, I guess moving into our, moving further into our 40s and going into our 50s, when our kids are going to get older, maybe that dynamics will change, will change again because we're less having to all catch up in a big group environment. You can be a bit more independent, going more into your interests and passions and things. I imagine the dynamics will change in a while, but it does, it does change, it does change things, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we had the conversation. It did not go well.
Speaker 3:You did get together with the yes the dinner party happened.
Speaker 1:He showed up he's like ignoring me at first, and finally I'm like, okay, well, I guess we should have a conversation, so we go outside. And I was like Did you have a chaperone no, no, we did not have.
Speaker 3:Just the two of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just the two of us. And Right, yeah, and I mean, I started out by being like hey, like you know, I'm really sorry if Trying to like, trying to be reconcilatory, and it devolved to the point that, you know, I finally was like, dear God, you need to like. Oh, I'm not crying. Oh, oh, yeah, I told him he needed to get over himself and his partner needed to get over her self and you needed to stop telling yourself stories and you were actually the center of what was happening there because it actually had nothing to do with you. So, like, and yeah, I launched into Like when I could see that this was going nowhere and when the condescension was starting to come my way, I was like, no, fuck this shit, absolutely not Lived with that for a long time, absolutely not putting up with this. And I told him he needed to get over himself and never, ever, had I had feelings for him, been attracted to him, like. I'm so sorry to tell you, but that was so.
Speaker 1:this was the story that you was making up that his girlfriend had very much made up and fed to him and made yeah, but you wanted him and that was impacting their relationship. She'd basically told him she wasn't comfortable with him spending time with me until he had a conversation with me, which he was unwilling to do. Therefore, he didn't spend time with me. Oh, that's rubbish, lame, lame, and I'm sorry. If I'm not worth a conversation to you, then we're absolutely not worth a friendship.
Speaker 3:Oh, what a shame.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. But then mutual friends who I loved very much. We also parted ways.
Speaker 2:Ghosted Again, wow.
Speaker 3:The one that actually got you back together at that dinner party.
Speaker 1:Who insisted, yeah, that we have a conversation Eventually. Yeah, there was some stuff that went down around like a planned event that she explicitly told me that she didn't want me to come to, which was very hurtful, and on the day that happened, we talked like every day, multiple times a day, and on the day that that happened, she had left me a message or called me and I was kind of like no, I don't want to talk to you on the day that, like this event had happened and hear about how wonderful it was this event that you told me like I wasn't welcome at.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, and the reasons had nothing to do with me and her. It just had to do with, like I don't feel like I can navigate this other piece around children that might come up, and um, yeah, and so so I didn't answer the phone and I listened to her message and then by the next night I was like I should call her back. So I called her back and I was like, hey, just checking in, you know, give me a call back. And I never heard from her again.
Speaker 3:And Victoria is like this is the most beautiful city to live in. But in all honesty, erin, this is not the first time I've heard that kind of story in Victoria. Oh wow, I've heard like from another friend who has been living here on and off since her 20s and she's now in her 50s and she'd like have a group of friends and then she'd go off traveling for a few months and she'd come back and she'd be like literally, it's like they're just all disappeared.
Speaker 1:So there we go. Oh yeah, and I mean, this was 2020 too. So, like I, literally my friendship circle had dissolved. I was starting over in a time when, like meeting people was extremely hard to do, so I made friends with the hot guy on the top floor of my condo building.
Speaker 3:Why not?
Speaker 1:Listen, this guy had a lot of requirements for partners and I invited myself over one night and, yeah, I did. He was also much younger than me but he was hot and he was available and like, why not? He just recently like split with his girlfriend? Listen, single Erin does a lot of things. Okay, all options are on the table. I love single Erin.
Speaker 2:I love single Erin too.
Speaker 3:I never thought of single Erin or like hey, jordan, do this. She's like I'm like single yes.
Speaker 1:I don't know yeah, really delicious human being.
Speaker 3:Like delicious human being, as are you, erin Miller, and it's been my pleasure to spend our fireside together, and it's just going into a way, so I look forward to many more of these.
Speaker 1:Let's, let's, let's think there's a thing, this fireside, mm hmm.
Speaker 3:I hope our conversation has been enriching. It's been enriching to me. I love that. I've loved it, thank you I love you. Mm, hmm.