Connect with Joy:
Website: www.joybatra.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joybatra/
Buy The Freelance Mindset: https://amzn.to/3NNf42O
Find her on other socials: @joybatra
Connect with Lynn:
Connect with Joy:
Website: www.joybatra.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joybatra/
Buy The Freelance Mindset: https://amzn.to/3NNf42O
Find her on other socials: @joybatra
Connect with Lynn:
Hey friends. Welcome to Redraw Your Path, a podcast where I share stories of people who have made big changes in their lives and forged their own unique paths. Guests talk about their moments of messiness, fear, and reframing on their way to where they are now. I'm Lynn Debilzen, and my goal is to inspire you about the shape your life could take. So let's get inspired. Hello, my friends. I am so excited to have you here with me today and to share this really powerful interview, an example of just a different way to live your life. Today I'm joined by Joy Batra. Joy Batra is founder of Quartz Consulting, a freelance consulting firm that has advised startups, venture capital firms, and fortune 500 companies. She previously worked at Goldman Sachs, Gundersen Dettmer, JioSaavn, briefly as a Bollywood actress, long story which you will hear about in the interview, and most recently as head of legal at Syndicate Protocol. Joy has lived or worked in India, Indonesia, South Korea, Thailand, the UAE, and the UK. She's my type of girl. She currently splits her time between New York City and Boston. Joy holds a JD, MBA from Harvard University. Her book, The Freelance Mindset: Unleashing Your Side Hustles for Better Work, Play, and Life was endorsed by Daniel Pink, Dorie Clark, and Arthur C. Brooks, and was named a Best Graduation Gift by Oprah Daily. And I just want to make my personal plug for this book. I am far from graduation. I am far from undergrad graduation, grad school graduations, and this book is one of the most impactful books on my life that I read in 2023. And I came across it pretty serendipitously. She interviews a friend of mine who will also be on the pod. But Joy's book is actually what inspired me to go scoop ice cream at my mom's ice cream shop this summer, which brought me a lot of joy. It inspired me to say yes to helping a friend with some admin work for her business. Which didn't make sense in my career path and the book has a ton of really great knowledge and inspiration and just different insights to help you shift your mental models around what is work, what is a career, and how do we really work to integrate what we're doing in work into our lives and The flip side too. How do we make sure that our lives are at the center? So really excited for you to hear this interview with Joy. I hope you enjoy. All right, Joy, I am so excited to talk with you today. Um, thanks for being willing to be on Redraw Your Path. So Joy, can you give me some context about where and how you grew up? Lynn, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me as well. So I grew up the child of immigrants. My parents immigrated to America from India back in the 1970s. So a little bit before my time, uh, but once I joined them on their journey, we, we moved around a lot. So I was split between Boston and greater Boston, which is my home and where I was born and different parts of Asia, mostly in Indonesia, where I was for six years, as well as, you know, Thailand, India, South Korea. Yes, that's enough. Actually, that is where the list ends. But so I moved around quite a bit. And what was interesting about that is that I think I was always feeling a little bit out of place everywhere I was, because anytime we would move somewhere new, it would take me about six months to kind of settle in, understand, you know, what are the new norms, especially when you're going between New Hampshire and Indonesia before the internet, you really had to learn the norms by going through the experience itself. And I think what that gave me was, I think a lot of just empathy and Understanding that the fact that I feel different might actually be a good thing. So a lot of credit to my parents for that. But they taught me when I was young that if you wanted to be creative, you had to be different. And that perspective that I had was something that nobody else could offer. And so anytime any of us, you know, feel like misfits, or even I today in the place where I've lived for many, many years, now at this point continue to sometimes feel like a misfit, uh, I like to pause and think about, you know, how is this making me different and how does this give me something that I could offer that might help somebody else? I love that. I love that. And it's so interesting hearing you use the word misfit and you know, like how our brains kind of automatically categorize that rather than like this, like you're this beautiful, unique star, you're like a misfit. And I'm so excited to talk with you more about that. Um, so yeah, tell me about like, where are you currently spending your days and how are you currently spending your days? Yeah, so I call myself a corporate slash creative. And that means on the corporate side, what I'm doing is generally legal compliance and strategy consulting. And I've had a focus on blockchain, but I've been in a number of industries, including finance and tech and media. And then on the creative side, most of my energy is Spent really on writing and promoting the messages of the book, but that's kind of the part that I'd say is like the resume creative or maybe the monetizable creative. There is the other creative that is me taking dance classes with no skill or talent whatsoever, but continuing to take them. Knowing that I'm not going to monetize, but that this is an important part of my personality and my well being overall, whether or not it's part of my career. So in terms of breakdown, I'd say I'm 80 percent corporate and 20 percent creative. And, and the ratio kind of is spread out differently on different days, but that's essentially how I'm spending my time. I love that. And I love you mentioned the like taking dance classes, and I'm sure you're going to be sharing a little bit more about that later. And that's a big part that inspired me in the book. And, you know, when you talk about your story and that dream you had. of incorporating dance into your, like, professional life, um, that's really powerful. So, I'm curious, okay, so you moved around quite a bit, um, including your parents, essentially, like, giving you both this, like, immigrant life in the U. S., and then also this, like, expat life moving around Asia. And most of us grew up with those like external pressures or expectations that are put on us. Those are things that we don't ask for as children. So can I ask what were some of those for you? And, you know, like, what were If there were molds and expectations, what path were you expected to take? Yeah, I think that that's a tough question. I mean, every family will have what their norms are. And I think it's kind of well known in the South Asian community that there is kind of a push toward professional services, usually a push toward medicine or engineering. It was very clear from an early age, I was not going to be a doctor. I didn't have that scientific aptitude. So once that was kind of ruled out. It may be the immigrant mentality, it may just have been my parents wanting me to have a secure life, but there is this desire and, like, momentum pushing you toward some sort of trade, like some sort of professional services like doctor, lawyer, engineer. So lawyer was the one that kind of worked for me because I love to read and I love to write and It made my parents really happy and it was kind of seen as this, you know, if you get into law school then everything is kind of set in that sense that you'll always have access to some sort of stable job and if you don't you can start your own firm and you have some skill to offer. I think that worked for me on some level because it had a lot of things that I loved, like, I loved watching lawyers on TV, I loved the reading and writing element about it. But as I got closer to this goal, you know, I worked in compliance, which was close to law, and so I met a lot of people who had come from law firms. I started to wonder whether law firm life was really where I would spend the entirety of my career, especially as I met a lot of people who had left law firms. And, you know, the closer I got to this career that had been chosen at an early age, the more I started to wonder, you know, what that would mean for me in terms of a lifestyle, what that would mean for me in terms of personality, like what aspects of myself would I have to say goodbye to potentially forever. And that really kind of scared me and made me want to explore some other options. I love that. So your family was like, all right, she's not going to be a doctor. She'll be a lawyer. Great. She'll have, you know, either she'll go the corporate path or she'll have her own firm. Awesome. She has lots of choice in life. So what was the first big way that you kind of redrew your path along your story? Yeah, so I think the first time that I tried to take, like, the red pen to the outline of my life was right after I had graduated college, and it was about time to take the law school admissions test, the LSAT, and unfortunately at that point my dad was about to pass away from ALS, and so he was on his deathbed, and uh, One day during that period, somebody gave me a business school brochure and was like, Hey, you should check this out. And I was like, Oh, this is interesting. And I brought it to the hospital. And of course, everybody had more important things on their mind than what is Joy going to do with the rest of her life. But, uh, you know, she was fortunate to have a rest of her life. But I didn't get a very warm reception to this idea from my family. And in that moment, it was kind of disruptive because we had already figured out what the life plan was. I was going to take the LSAT and I was going to go to law school. So I knew that was important to my, my dad and also to my mom. So during that period, when he was in the hospital, I studied for the LSAT and I took it and I got. I got a good score, and I was able to kind of tell that I would go to a school that I wanted to go to, and it was interesting because there's kind of a whole longer story about how important that was to my family, but it just seemed like there was a lot of momentum, this dream that I'd had for a long time was coming true, so who was I to edit it? But then I went to law school and I applied to business school. I found I could do both and really in this program that was joint law and joint business, I had four years to kind of think about what is it that I actually want to do? And you know, is law really it for me? And I started to have a lot of anxiety. Oh my gosh, I was freaking out. The closer graduation came, I, you know, I had accepted a job at a fancy law firm and it was my dream job on paper. Everything was perfect. But what was really, you know, scaring me was the fact that I wouldn't have time for the hobbies and the things that I felt made me, me and the things that I had really wanted to explore. Like I had always been really involved in Bollywood dance and had wanted to be more creative and wanted to write and love to read and wanted to maybe even act. And so I was really anxious about letting go of the side of myself as I got to graduation and I didn't know what to do with that anxiety. So I continued down the path and it became like a bit of a pressure cooker in me where I graduated. I took the bar and then I was kind of counting down the weeks until I had to start at this firm and I kind of just wanted to have one last adventure. Mm hmm. I love that. Oh my gosh, now I'm on the edge of my seat. And it sounds like that's such a heavy weight to carry, especially knowing that you were pursuing law partially in honor of your father's legacy and you knew he was going to be proud of you and you still felt this calling towards this other direction. So, so then like when you wanted that That next adventure, what happened? Yeah. So, you know, there was a little gap between taking the bar exam and when I was supposed to start work. It was maybe three to four weeks. And so I thought, let me go to India and I'll visit family. And I'd had this very secret dream that I never told anybody about, which was I wanted to be an extra in a Bollywood movie. And I would think about it. All the time. It was the most random thing. But one of the girls that I had danced with in my college dance team had actually moved to India and become an actress. And so I messaged her and was like, Hey, how did you do this? And she told me about the acting school she went to. And it turned out that they had a little three week acting and dance program that was exactly within the three weeks that I had off. So of course I applied and enrolled and all of that and I got to India and I thought, okay, maybe now I can just sit in the cafe and somebody will put me in a movie. But it ended up that I was able to kind of meet a producer, get an audition and then get an acting talent management agreement. And at that point I had a really big decision to make because I had accepted this job. I had a life waiting for me in California that was supposed to start in a month. I had six figure student loans, which meant I needed that life. And then I also had this dream that had come. Had a chance to come true out of nowhere. And should I take that path of adventure? And we wouldn't be here today, probably, if I hadn't taken that path to adventure. So I ended up letting go of the law firm job and moving to India to pursue this acting opportunity. And it was the most disorienting time in my life, the most exciting time in my life. But you know, the most disconnected I've ever felt from my future, because I didn't understand how I'd gotten there. I didn't understand where I was going. And at that moment, I didn't understand how it's going to make money. So a lot of problems to solve. And that's kind of how freelancing came in for me, because it allowed me to really find a way to Take the work that I trained my entire life to do and do it in increments that allowed me to have the rest of my life. So I could spend a couple of hours in the morning working on a spreadsheet or working on a document. And then in the afternoon I could just put on makeup, change my costume, and go for an audition and have both of those times in my life. So it really I hadn't known that freelancing was a career path available to me. I hadn't realized it would allow me to marry kind of this corporate and creative sides of myself, but when it appeared, it was like a revelation and it truly did change my life and the way I thought about the world. Um, I love that so much and it's interesting. I'm actually gonna, I love that you said that because there's a quote from your book that stood out to me. That it speaks to exactly that. You said the story I had heard my whole life that you go to school, then grow up, get a job and give up all the other parts of yourself turned out to be fiction. I thought my only options were full time job or no job. I didn't realize there was a third path in between the two. And, you know, like, you're, you're explaining that, like, you kind of went through that process and then you were like, Oh, like, I can do this. What were some, like, when you were, first of all, thank you, universe, that three week class was during your break before your job started. And when you were going through that decision making process, what were the fears going through your head and what were the narratives that you were holding about what you should have been doing that you had to rewrite? The fears were swirling so strongly that I, like, almost couldn't have pinned them down in that moment. I just had that much kind of confusion and overwhelm, but if I sit back, sit here now and kind of try to untangle the threads that were going on, there was kind of this profound sense of shame in that I didn't want any of my law school friends or any of my business school friends to know what I was doing because I thought that, I don't know, I just didn't know how they would take it and I was worried that they might think that. I thought very highly of myself or that I was foolish or that I was chasing something that didn't exist. And I thought they would laugh at me. Basically, there was this sense of letting down my family where I had thought that, you know, going to the steady path and taking this prestigious nine to five job would have really been a success story for my family. And all of a sudden, you know, we don't really have a path to make the kind of money that I was hoping to make at the time. Because acting at best was going to pay me in rupees. And the amount of rupees I was getting was nowhere near close to my loans. So there, there was that, then there was also the fear that if I did this, would I even be able to get a job in the future? Like, let's say I tried it and then wanted to come back. Would anybody hire me? Like, I wasn't sure that I could convince somebody that I'd still be marketable. Then, you know, there were all the questions of, well, I hadn't trained as an actor and I, you know, didn't have the technique necessarily that other people had been working toward their entire lives. So how was it going to catch up in a short period of time? So there was a lot of pressure on that as well. And add to it the fact that I was not very good at Hindi, still I'm not great at Hindi, and a lot of the roles, at least generally speaking, had to be in Hindi. And so then it was, I mean, if you really, if you look at it analytically, the decision made zero sense. How are you doing this? But then if you think about the payoff that I was getting, which, you know, it was maybe not in prestige, it was maybe not in finances, but there was that part of myself that needed to be expressed. There was this other part of the world that needed to be explored for me, by me, and a change in my perspective that needed to happen that then allowed me to kind of meet so many freelancers, meet the 50 freelancers I've interviewed, meet you, and really understand that the way we're moving in this world now is not that career ladder path that maybe you and I had both grown up learning about, but we really are moving into a more fragmented society where we can have multiple identities, where we can do multiple things at once, and we're all kind of figuring it out collectively. at the same time, like, how much time do we give to our hobbies? What do we do on social media? These are the questions we're asking now. But at the time, I mean, you know, people ask me like, oh, did you just not get a job? Is that why you moved to India? Like, are you okay? And, you know, it was, it was actually a choice, but it was a choice that was hard to explain. And even at the time, I didn't know quite why I was doing it, except that I had to. I love that. You, you heard that call, like your heart had that call. You had to, and you did it, even though I heard you talk a lot about the fear of unknown, not just like the fear of what's next, but the fear of what's going to happen in five years when I do want to get corporate job again, or I do want to be hired in a full time role. You have the question of figuring out money, which I feel like is always my number one question. But then also that imposter syndrome of, you know, like, can you just show up and be a Bollywood actor and your Hindi isn't fluent and all of those things. Oh my gosh, I love, and you persevered and you made it happen. So what was, if you look back then, like, going on in your life, like, what's the second way you redrew your path, Joy? Well, I think it was actually coming out of that. So I think going in. With all of these doubts and all of this anxiety, I was really lucky that I had a couple of friends who were very firmly in my corner and they were like, you must do this. Try it. And one friend even, you know, helped me email the law firm before I was ready. And you know, you need friends like that who are in your corner when you're redrawing things, especially if it's brand new to you. But the second way was when I decided how long I was going to stay in India, I ended up giving myself a deadline, which I think was about six months from the time that I arrived, which is not a very long time to make a career as an actor. I gave myself a deadline and on that deadline, I ended up getting cast in a music video and ended up getting offered a consulting project. And this was before the time of remote work. And so I could only do one of the two. And I, I mulled over this decision. I even had an astrology reading. I really thought about it. And the astrologer told me I was going to be an artist. And so I said, huh, if I'm going to be an artist, well, I should definitely save some money, which I think I would have done anyway without talking to the astrologer. But I accepted the consulting project and you know, that consulting project led to then some full time work in New York. And next thing I knew, I had really kind of immersed myself back into a corporate life. I had come back home to the States and. It was interesting. I've written about this in an essay, but it's not in the book. When I left India, I actually was bumped off my flight because it was oversold. And they gave me a free one way ticket to come back. And I could have gone back. I had fully intended to go back. And I ended up never using the ticket because there was never a compelling reason. for me to make that trip. And I think that similar to the first time that I redrew my life, this was also a very intuitive kind of journey. It was also, this one was a little bit more logical because, you know, the numbers made sense and all my friends and family, you know, were based in the States. And so there was a lot of like quality of life there. But at the same time, You know, it was giving, letting go of a dream or, you know, saying that this dream is now complete and that I'm ready to move on to the next chapter. And that, that's not an easy thing to do. I think that was, I think that was something that I didn't quite understand the gravity of as I was doing it. And, you know, it was one small decision to the next, and over the course of a couple of months, it was a brand new life that had, that it had, and it was absolutely the right life to make, but or to be part of. But I think that, you know, when we think about making major changes in our career, they can happen both ways. You can make this one massive leap that you know that you're making and you rewrite the script and you take, take on a new identity or you can make. A series of smaller changes and that can then lead you into a path that is a better fit for you or is the direction that makes sense for you at that time. And so every now and then I get asked, you know, what advice do you have for people who want to change careers or want to make a leap? And we can go into more detail about this at some point, but there's something to be said about making small changes and those little small shifts really do add up and compound over time. Yeah, it's that thought of just take one step forward and take that step in the direction you want to go in and you don't necessarily need to know what is the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. I have a very like math brain and so it's almost like you have a straight line and then you can pivot that line and have another straight line or you can have a series of small lines that turn and make a curve. So that's kind of how I'm seeing that in my brain in terms of you redrew your path that time over around a curve rather than, you know, one straight line. And it's so fascinating to me that the astrologer said, you'll be an artist. And you were like, all right. Well, he says I'll be an artist, so I know I'll be an artist. I will go back to Corporate life. So what was going on there? Can you tell me? You know, what was your thought process there? Yeah, I don't know. It's really counterintuitive. If they told me I wasn't gonna be an artist, I probably would have chosen the art path. No, I love it and it's almost You know, some people would say, okay, well, he, he determined my future. He can, he knows what I meant to, and I'm going to stay in Bollywood forever. And others might be like, well, then I'm going to save money first. And so I love, I just love that whole process that you went through. Absolutely. It's hilarious. I mean, the advice was ambiguous enough that you could take it in either direction and feel good about it. And it really did reveal what I wanted to do, which was work on this corporate project. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. All decisions you would have made, again, if you were to do it over again? Yeah, I think, I think each of these decisions was the right one. Uh, all of them came with trade offs, which was hard. I think that the entire time I didn't know I was on a path. That made sense or a path that I would one day look back on and be really glad I took. I think there was a lot of doubt at every step of the way and kind of wondering what I'm doing and where it's all going. But after many years of being in the freelance life, so that first year was very disorienting and I didn't understand how all the pieces would fit together. But now we're here and I'm kind of 10 years almost into the freelance life. It really does make sense. that I needed to have these experiences in different industries and different skills, different functions, to be able to come up with this package that allows me to sit at the intersection of several different disciplines, whether that's as a lawyer and also a writer, and also, you know, whatever that other thing is, whether that's a community builder, whether that's a creator, uh, whether that is kind of to be defined going forward. But, yeah, I think that we can be on the right path and it can feel scary and it can feel hard and we can feel like we're doing everything wrong and then turn a corner and look back and say, Oh, I'm really glad I did that. Yeah. Like I needed to go through all of that to learn what I learned. Um, and it sounds like you're speaking about, you know, the beauty of gaining all that experience is really that hybrid professionalism, which you featured my friend Sarabeth in your book, and she's going to be a podcast guest also. So I'm excited to introduce her to listeners as well. Joy, any other redrawing of your path that you want to share with listeners? Other big turns that you've taken? I would say it's more of a theme than a specific example, but I would say that what really surprised me as I redrew my path both times was how non linear my career ended up being. So I accepted this acting job, which then helped me get a consulting job because people thought that that was an interesting story or brought some relevant skills to the table. And then later, I was working as a consultant and then I took an acting class and then that got me a consulting project, or I post. Bollywood dance online. And then that would get me a strategy consulting project. And the way things didn't necessarily where the, I couldn't necessarily calculate what the payoff would be and in which direction it would go of a particular event. So yes, I mean, as I look back. You know, the wisdom and the experience of going through a very disorienting time is a major benefit, but there were other concrete benefits too. Like there were the transferable skills I got. There was the fact that I got to test my risk appetite. There's kind of an unusual story that I can then share in different venues. And I think. Those are all benefits that come out of making decisions that are interesting, that we might not have a role model who is made before us, and that we figure out as we go. And so I think for anybody who's redrawing their path, to really follow your instincts. I mean, make a plan, don't do anything financially rash, make sure that you can pay your rent and you can afford food, but where you have the ability to experiment and to do something that other people aren't doing, try it. Really honor that opportunity because it can lead you somewhere that could be very interesting that you don't have the information to foresee right now. We just can't know in advance. Yeah, that's, um, you know, if I had a million dollars, I would be buying the ability to see the future, but I don't. But the advice of just take the experiment, you know, like. Test it, see what happens is so important. And it's something that I've learned, especially over the last year and a half, but, um, throughout my life is just try something. And if my heart is pulling me towards something and my inner wisdom and my gut, whatever we want to call it, the universe is pulling me towards something that. you know, like experimenting with it is a great place to start. And the other, the other strand I want to pull out, because you talked about how taking that risk to be a Bollywood actor helped you get a consulting gig, which helped you get another acting gig, which helped you get another strategy consulting project. And that speaks to the power of just being able to show up as your whole self and as your whole. human. And that part is really beautiful to me is that you created that space of safety for yourself where you weren't afraid to say, you, you became a dancer and a Bollywood actor. And what I heard you say is like a little bit ago, you know, a year or two years before that you, you might've been a little shy to say that to your law school classmates, but that that Somebody heard that and said, I want to work with Joy. Like I want her on my team and working on this project, which is really awesome. That advice is really powerful. Any other advice you would give to others who are considering redrawing their own path? I think everyone listening to this is so multifaceted and so talented that there are many dimensions and skills that they could bring into the conversation or into the workplace. And, yeah, I absolutely was afraid to mention, like, this little Bollywood experience. early in the journey when I didn't know what it was. But I think over time, one thing I'd really encourage people who are redrawing their right, uh, their life path to do is think about what is the transferable skill that comes out of it and really become good at curating the parts of your experience that are relevant to your listener. And If you are in kind of a social media context, maybe you can share the Bollywood dance or maybe you can share some of the more creative elements, but the people who are listening are just as multifaceted and just as talented as you are. So they might have an overlapping interest in this niche like Bollywood dance, but they may also have, you know, a tech company or a problem that they're trying to solve in an unrelated domain that because they know you from this hook, they will then think of you for the other one. So, remember that as you're redrawing the path, I think a lot of us tend toward imposter syndrome or self doubt, but remember that we have these transferable skills and that, yes, even if, you know, consulting is not exactly Bollywood acting, there are transferable skills, like communication, like understanding your clients, like being able to You know, present in the room and tell a story that will convince the audience. All of those are relevant, and if you can pull out those threads, I think you can bring more dimensions of your authentic self into the workplace, as long as you show how they're benefiting the problem at hand. Love that. Love that. And sometimes, you know, just, A little nugget I'll add for listeners, sometimes that doesn't become clear until you're halfway in or after, and that's okay, too, you know, if you're feeling a call towards something, you don't necessarily need to know everything you're going to get out of that before starting, but you will find gifts and transferable skills. in the adventure you're taking on. Well, thanks, Joy. Would you be able to share with listeners where people can find you and anything you'd want to share? I am everywhere on the internet under my name, so Joy Batra. Find me on social media and check out my book, The Freelance Mindset Unleashing Your Side Hustles for Better Work, Play and Life anywhere books are sold online. Love that. Love that. And yeah, I mentioned in the intro, but Joy's book changed my life and I guarantee it is a good read for anyone out there. All right. Thanks, Joy. Thank you. Hey, thanks for listening to Redraw Your Path with me. If you liked the episode, please share and subscribe. That helps more listeners find me. And don't be shy, reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to know what resonated with you. Can't wait to share more inspiring stories with you. See you next week.