I Quickly Realized It Was the Wrong Decision | Ep. 004 - Dr. Sarabeth Berk

Join host Lynn Debilzen in this enlightening interview with Dr. Sarabeth Berk on Redraw Your Path!

In this interview, Lynn learns about Sarabeth’s journey as a Creative Disruptor, from ski school instructor, art educator, academic, professional identity researcher, and writer. Their conversation touches on:

• How a professional identity crisis and lay off led her to take power back into her own hands and realize her career belongs to HER
• Taking time in any transition to know what’s happening in your body, and when you can’t tell, the importance of slowing down the decision
• Whether knowing your root “WHY” is essential to taking your next steps (spoiler: it’s not!)
• How career paths might be an old notion and way to think about career - there’s also career flight, career freeze, career fight, and career flying

Tune in for a dynamic discussion on life and growth!

About Sarabeth:

Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert on hybrid professional identity and career belonging. She was featured in Forbes, is a TEDx speaker and is the author of More Than My Title. Dr. Berk’s formal title is Chief of Staff at Talent to Team, but she calls herself a Creative Disruptor because she works at the intersection of being an artist, researcher, educator, and designer. It took an identity crisis for her to realize she actually integrates these identities together and that’s where her unique value lies.

‌Through groundbreaking research, Dr. Berk developed a one-of-a-kind approach that takes personal branding and career development to a whole new level. Today, she helps professionals discover and articulate their professional identity and unique value in the workforce. As a result, her clients feel more seen, empowered and confident, and teams recognize each other as more than their job titles, valuing the critical yet different roles of experts, generalists, and hybrids in the workforce.

‌Dr. Berk obtained her PhD from the University of Denver, and has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and Rhode Island School of Design. She resides in Boulder, Colorado with her two pups (a golden retriever and miniature schnauzer) and partner who is also a hybrid professional.

Connect with Sarabeth:

Website / URL: https://www.morethanmytitle.com/

Book: More Than My Title: The Power of Hybrid Professionals in a Workforce of Experts and Generalists - https://amzn.to/3TTjzfY 

Workbook: More Than My Title: Find Your Hybrid Professional Identity - https://amzn.to/3vAJ3EE 

TEDx Talk: Are You A Hybrid Professional? | Sarabeth Berk | TEDxBoulder - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZg6jaMIvIE 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarabethberk/

Connect with Lynn:

• www.redrawyourpath.com
• www.lynndebilzen.com
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynndebilzen/

Transcript

Lynn: 0:00

Hey friends, welcome to Redraw Your Path, a podcast where I share stories of people who have made big changes in their lives and forged their own unique paths. Guests talk about their moments of messiness, fear, and reframing on their way to where they are now. I'm Lynn Debilzen, and my goal is to inspire you about the shape your life could take. So let's get inspired. Hey, y'all. I am so excited to share this conversation with Dr. Sarabeth Berk with you today. you heard about Sarabeth on episode two with Joy Batra. Sarabeth was featured in Joy's book on the freelance mindset. Sarabeth and I crossed paths many years ago, and I'm really thrilled to still have her as a connection in my life. So a little bit about her, Dr. Sarabeth Berk is the leading expert on hybrid professional identity and career belonging. She was featured in Forbes, is a TEDx speaker, and is the author of More Than My Title. Dr. Berk's formal title is Chief of Staff at Talent to Team, but she calls herself a creative disruptor because she works at the intersection of being an artist, researcher, educator, and designer. It took an identity crisis for her to realize she actually integrates these identities together, and that's where her unique value lies. quick plug, I was an early reader of Sarabeth's book a few years ago when it came out. I did all the exercises and it really helped me to get clear on the value I brought to the table in the workplace setting. So highly recommend. So through her groundbreaking research, Dr. Berk developed a one of a kind approach that takes personal branding and career development to a whole new level. Today, she helps professionals discover and articulate their professional identity and unique value in the workplace. As a result, her clients feel more seen, empowered, and confident, and teams recognize each other as more than their job titles, valuing the critical yet different roles of experts, generalists, and hybrids in the workforce. Dr. Berk obtained her PhD from the University of Denver and also has degrees from the School of the Art Institute of Chicago and Rhode Island School of Design. She currently resides in Boulder, Colorado with her two pups, a golden retriever and miniature schnauzer and partner who is also a hybrid professional. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Sarabeth Berk, and I can't wait to hear what you think and what resonates with you. Hey, Sarabeth, it is so great to have you on Redraw Your Path today. Thank you for joining us. How are you?

Sarabeth: 3:10

Lynn. It's been so long. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm super excited to be your guest today.

Lynn: 3:17

Great. Very cool. so the first question I want to throw right at you, because we're going to dive right in, is give me some context about where and how you grew up. Where did little Sarabeth, come from?

Sarabeth: 3:31

Oh my goodness. I was born on the east coast outside of Philadelphia in a little town called Jenkintown and I lived on this great little street in the neighborhood and my family lived there until I was six years old, and then my parents had a dream of being in the West and having a life in the mountains. And so off we went to, Colorado. And so I mostly from like age six to 18 was in a tiny rural mountain town, outside of Aspen and grew up there. And then I've been in and out of Colorado as an adult, but right now I'm in Boulder, Colorado, and, I love it here.

Lynn: 4:10

Oh, that's awesome. And what, a cultural difference, too, going from small town in Pennsylvania to small town in Colorado, even though it's all small towns, but very different cultures, I imagine.

Sarabeth: 4:24

so much. I've moved around the country a lot ever since high school. I wanted to live in different cities and have experiences in places that were not just mountain centric. And so I feel like I've had the gamut of lived abroad for a bit. so I really got to taste what kind of setting works for me. I think that's important to life.

Lynn: 4:43

Oh, oh my gosh, so important. And I wish more people had the opportunity to do that. so you said you're in Boulder. how are you currently spending your days these days?

Sarabeth: 4:56

Oh my gosh. Well, Boulder is big time in the news if anybody listening as a football fan because we just got Coach Prime. So the CU Boulder football team is like the media star for college football. So Boulder's been a really fun place to be at the moment. my life right now is a little bit of chaos. I had a baby recently and so I'm enjoying new motherhood and all the things that come with it and getting to know my little son. But we do a lot of time taking walks and going into nature, going up to the mountains to see family or ski. and then also I'm working on my next book. So when I'm not coaching and doing keynote speaking and doing other professional things, I'm trying to sit and get pages done because I want my next book to come out next year. So I've got a lot of things going on, Lynn.

Lynn: 5:43

Wow. Yeah, that does not sound like a few little projects those are all big things. Writing a book is enough. Having a kid is enough and like doing it all at once. you sound like life is very full and exciting. And congrats on the little guy.

Sarabeth: 6:03

thank you. Yeah. Such a big deal to have a baby and at the same time it's so much joy and just changes everything about how you see the world. I have so much more excitement and things I want to show him and bring him into and have experiences that I'm like, these are going to be memories we're going to make with him. But yeah, I'm, thanks, like, so fun to talk with you about this.

Lynn: 6:25

yeah. I, I love it. And we've been friends for several years. And although, when I, moved across the country, we had some time not seeing each other. It's just like really beautiful to see your glow in motherhood. So, I, I love to see it. okay, so let's like rewind a little bit again. I like to bookend with, where did you grow up? And then what are you doing now? We kind of have these bookends to life. But then let's start with some of the first chapters. Most of us grow up with some external pressures or expectations placed on it. oftentimes things we didn't ask for, whether or not our, parents intend to give us those expectations. So I'm curious, What were some of those for you, or what path were you expected to take, if any?

Sarabeth: 7:18

Yeah. Oh Familial expectations are so powerful. okay, I'm rewinding into my life movie. when I was a little girl, people always told me I was very precocious, I was one of those kids that was more mature than their years and could speak with adults and just had a great vocabulary and was like mature at my age. So honestly, I don't think my parents knew what to do with me because I was a little bit more than just a regular infant, toddler, like pre K, child. So I required like, like a lot of books and a lot of, activities and I just wanted stimulation and I wanted to learn and I was super curious. So I know my mom was really busy trying to fulfill that. And when I was really young, like first grade, I wanted to be a veterinarian. I loved animals. And then probably at some point I wanted to be a ballerina too, because I love ballet. But I don't recall my parents ever having hard expectations for me. The most my dad told me, and this is more into high school, is just do something you love. But my mom on the other side, when I was a freshman in high school, the first college she ever took me to visit was Harvard. So I know she had some, some expectations academically of like, you're going to make it far You need to use your brain and, go achieve, achieve, achieve. So, if anything, there was just a message of reach your potential and go be the top of the class. I'll say that much.

Lynn: 8:50

And talk about like, every college visit is going to be a disappointment after going to the Harvard campus, freshman year of high school. I used to live in Cambridge and was very near Harvard and it was just a beautiful, amazing place and buzzing with a ton of really amazing people and intellectual ideas and yeah, then visiting your standard state school after that is a little bit like, meh. But it sounds like they did have some expectations around, going to college, using your brain, whatever that looks like for them, but I love that from your dad, do something you love. Do you think you had that model from them? were they doing something they loved in terms of work?

Sarabeth: 9:41

You know, for all the dysfunction that I've had in my family, I will say They knew they didn't belong in the East Coast. They knew they were kind of the black sheep of what, like, New England was about, and they really wanted to be in the mountains, and my dad had started college as an accountant, and he didn't graduate, and instead he went to trade school because he really liked to tinker. And he ended up, becoming a plumber, and he wanted to start his own plumbing business. So when he came to the mountains, that's what he did. He worked for another plumbing company for a time, and then quickly started his own business in plumbing and heating. And he loved that work, and he would do it day and night. He'd be in the field all day and at home that night doing contracts. And that was the model I saw in my dad. Building a business, doing something he was really good at, and built a great reputation around it. my mom, on the other hand, jumped around a lot. I think she was trying to balance how to be a mom and how to be a wife and then how to fit in work that may not be a career but was a steady job. And so I saw her go through many versions of work, which also was a role model of you can keep changing, right? You can try new things and there's, there doesn't have to be an end. Like, there's, the world is a variety of things. Yeah,

Lynn: 11:01

I love both of those lessons. just that idea that like, if something's not working, try something new and really leaning into, I, I like tinkering and I'm going to go into the plumbing world and run my own business. It's really inspiring especially hearing that he made that pivot from accounting too and I imagine he went through his own, narrative rewriting around that.

Sarabeth: 11:30

I think both of their families, my mom and dad, I think they had expectations. Like my dad was supposed to be an accountant and follow whatever path that was. And he made a huge pivot and I think it took a while for their families to accept their choices. So that's probably a different story for a different day. But I think you're just making me reflect about this for the first time.

Lynn: 11:52

Yeah, well, and how cool that maybe as they were going through that process, they perhaps thought about. what pressures or not they wanted to give to their daughter. So, yeah, well, let's dive into kind of what life looked like for you then, in terms of growing up and studying and professional identity. what would you say was the first big way that you redrew your path as you were moving through life?

Sarabeth: 12:26

You know, gosh, I'm in my 40s, and I feel like it's taken me this long to have acceptance around what my career is or what a career is. you're asking that huge question that I'm not taking lightly because I think about this stuff all the time. my next book is about career belonging instead of career fit. Because I think it's taken me this much life to realize I'm not looking for career fit anymore. Career fit is a myth. Career fit is the wrong word. Like I'm not trying to fit a path or fit a mold. I want to be where I'm seen, known, and valued for who I am and the kind of work I want to do. And that's a very different frame to reference how we are in this world and what our work is about. So I'm just going to put all that on the side for a moment because that's a part of my belief system. I would say if there was a headline like a New York Times story headline of Sarabeth's path and like how I figured this stuff out, I was like super lost for the majority of my life after graduating high school. I did not know what I wanted to study in college. I didn't understand the myriad of career choices that I had in front of me. I had a pretty narrow view on what options are like doctor, lawyer, teacher, you know, like just, I didn't know enough. And without that understanding, I just didn't understand what I could be. There was, there was so much more for me to start to learn or make a choice, so evolution and change and finding myself has been like a headline of my life. I didn't really answer your question.

Lynn: 14:02

no, yeah, you did, because I think you provided really helpful context, to, The entire conversation, but also maybe some of the changes that you were going to go through and, and what you were seeking, right? And I love that you talk about career belonging. I can't wait to read that book. I was an early reader of your first book and so I'm excited to hear more about it because I think in many ways I've been on that same journey and search of like how does career fit into my life and what does that look like and what happens when you have many interests or you're not even aware of all the opportunities. So I, appreciate you setting the table, for that. And so as you were kind of Going through this continual process of evolution and change, is there a time that you'd want to really emphasize for listeners where you really made a big turn, or changed what you had expected of yourself?

Sarabeth: 15:13

absolutely. you and I were talking earlier and I was like, I have a number of these major pivots or fork in the road kind of moments for sliding door moments, but I'll highlight just to call for time. So, I think graduating from college was an eye opening moment. I was a high achiever in high school and through most of college. And then the minute you graduate and you lose the title of being a student, you don't know who you are. Like, I self associated as student for my first 21, 22 years of life, and then it's like, well, now what? so graduating from college was my first professional identity crisis, and I had no idea that was a thing or it had a label. And it took me a while to find a path. I think I was trying to get little work, like working at a mall or in retail or in restaurants. And then I taught ski school for a little bit, which helped me sort of take pressure off. the beauty of teaching ski school was that it's a very easy lifestyle. You're on the slopes all day. I mean, who wouldn't want to be skiing with kids every day? Cause I was doing kids ski school. But it also took the pressure away of like, I was used to studying and taking tests and writing papers at night and like having, to do work during the day and work at night and weekends. And I got to be free and focus on me and my social life. So that was like a first kind of getting my life in order, understanding what do I want to do? And very quickly, I knew this was just sort of a stepping stone job. I needed to go back and get my master's. I needed more credentials. I didn't have the skills. to plug in professionally the way I wanted to, and at that point I was going to pursue art education. So that was like the first sort of, who am I, what am I doing, and taking some time off after graduating, which is kind of what the ski school job did for me, helped take the pressure down from like figuring it all out immediately. And I think that's really an important message. People need time to find themselves when they're in any kind of transition and having more life experience. To understand what you like and what you don't like was vital for me and it always has been, but in those transition moments especially. so I got back on my feet, started my career really after I got my master's and then it was, I'd say somewhat smooth sailing. Like I had pretty consistent work and I thought I was building like a path to somewhere, but then the next big pivot really happened when I felt I had exhausted my time teaching, like I'd been in the classroom long enough and I'd been running different programs and non profits and I thought, I've hit another ceiling, like I don't know how to break through. And the ceiling was one where I felt I was trying to be taken more seriously. I wanted to be a leader. I wanted to start, having my voice matter, not just like executing on what people tell me to do, but I wanted to start being in charge. But going from teaching into leadership was a big jump. Like I felt I was being held back because people only saw me as what I had been. Like, you're a classroom teacher. How are you ever going to innovate in school districts or reform education? Like, I didn't know how to make that big jump. So I went back to grad school to get my PhD and my belief was the PhD credential would make me an expert. I needed to become an authority. And so that pivot was actually pretty big because at that moment in life, I was living in San Diego. I had a pretty serious relationship. We were kind of on the rock. And I also had a job offer to go from, I was in San Diego to work somewhere in the Bay Area. And I was admitted into my PhD program back in Colorado. And so I had to make a choice between going back to Colorado, working on my PhD and the boyfriend I was dating, he was going to Colorado too. So it was like, stay with boyfriend. Do the doctorate or go out on my own and take the job in the Bay Area. And I remember that crossroads being pretty heavy. Um, there was a lot of factors I was trying to figure out on the pros and cons. Ultimately, I made the decision to work on my PhD and went to University of Denver. So those are a couple of those moments where, you know, things weren't black and white and I made a fork in the road decision.

Lynn: 19:29

Yeah, well, and it sounds like you, you were really holding a lot around that decision of what's next and how will that kind of determine what life looks like for Sarabeth. Were there like, what were the thoughts going through your mind as you worked through that decision over whether it was a series of days, weeks, months, but what were some of the thoughts and like fears that were coming up?

Sarabeth: 20:00

Oh my gosh, you're making me remember. In the moment, because it's happened twice and I skipped the first time this happened, but where I've said yes to something and then quickly within a couple weeks realized it was the wrong decision and I went a different direction. So, in the story I just told you of doing my PhD the Bay Area, I actually think I accepted the job offer in the Bay Area first. That felt right, but that was just like my immediate gut reaction. But I started unpacking a few days after making that initial decision, what, what it meant. What some of the logistics were going to be, some of the things that maybe I didn't see initially were starting to appear in front of me. And so it was really within a week, I realized I made the wrong decision and I declined the offer. So, it was pretty easy to reverse that decision because I hadn't really started the job yet. It was mostly like accepting a job offer and then coming back and saying, actually, I'm sorry, but I need to rescind. and it's tough. I remember talking to my mom about it and my boyfriend and having sort of that. Not like Dark Night of the Soul, but just wrestling with the tension of, like, what happens, what do I think will happen in my life if I say yes to one and no to the other? And, ultimately it came down to, like, feeling something. I think there's an intuitive side to this, um, that's hard to describe. And knowing kind of where you're called versus where you're trying to force yourself to go forward. And a lot of things about Colorado felt like there was more ease and more acceptance and more opportunities if I went that way. Probably the best I can say it.

Lynn: 21:40

Yeah, well, and I love the emphasis and I heard the word ease and I'm like, okay, I think sometimes we're tempted to take the easy route, but I think easy and ease are different and you kind of visualizing like what will bring me ease, like what will bring myself and my soul ease. Were there things, like, was it your body telling you that this was the wrong decision? Was it just taking the time to quiet everything else around you to tune into that? Or do you remember any specific ways that helped you come to that conclusion?

Sarabeth: 22:20

I love this question. I believe our bodies are so smart, like there's just that body wisdom. And as I've gotten older, I've become much more aware of tuning in and recognizing when my body is telling me something, that my mind is trying to coerce or overthink. So this decision of, going to my PhD program was over a decade ago. At that time, I don't think I had the clarity, but I, I think I could sense it anyway. It just wasn't as loud in me. other times since then, my body has like, I've gotten like a crazy, uh, backache or something. Like I've had very clear signals when things were wrong. Like, I don't know. My body was literally stopping in my tracks from going further on that path. so I think learning how to have this sense of what's happening inside of you when you're making big decisions and if you can't tell, then slow down the decision. That's a really good point.

Lynn: 23:16

Yeah, well, and I love that piece of advice, too, is like, slow it down and take the space to really think, not, not just think, but like, feel through it, right? And, kind of just sit and reflect in that. one thing I wanted to go back to was you said, getting a PhD felt like what you needed to do to become an expert and to be seen as an expert. Can you talk a little bit more about looking back on that belief and whether you think that still holds true or whether, because I, I know, especially thinking through, the research on imposter syndrome, and women, and women often go for the next credential, because we're really trying to build that confidence and work through imposter syndrome, and we think that that credential will help us reach our goals. and sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't, so I'm curious what your reflections are looking back on that.

Sarabeth: 24:21

Yeah, of course. Even today, so I've had my PhD about almost 10 years now. I'm still sort of surprised what circles and contacts people like, oh, you have your PhD. Oh, you're Dr. Sarah Bestberg and they acknowledge it and they take it differently. And other people in my life have no idea and forget even what a PhD means. So it, it does hold weight, but the weight is erratic. And it also depends how I use it and how I show up. do I write doctor or do I leave it off? So some of it is really driven by what you're doing with it and who you're around. So, if I were to go back and counsel myself, I would say, you know, why do I want to get my PhD? What do I think it will do for me? And the answers I gave at that time were good answers, but there was more I wasn't thinking about. A lot of the PhDs, who do you want to study with? what program are you trying to get into? Who are the faculty teaching in that program? Why do you want to be alongside them? Because it's a much more intimate experience than just a bachelor's or master's. Your professors are, who are directly influencing you, and they actually help credential you. If you study under somebody who has a big name, that helps you get more influence in the field. so there's, there's some of those details I didn't think through. Like I went to DU because it was in Colorado. I got accepted and they had a program that seemed to fit me, but I should have done a lot more research. The biggest thing I tell people I got from my PhD is how to think more critically. I did not have the level of critical thinking before that program that I have today and learning how to understand data and put it together into research and cogent thinking supported by analysis. I'm just at a whole different level. So it really reinforced that if that matters to you or anyone listening, absolutely get a PhD. Otherwise, I don't think a PhD matters so much in today's age. It's like a nice thing you can do to like give yourself a pat on the back, like look at this accomplishment. But if you're trying to become a thought leader or run a company or just get a promotion, there are a lot of other ways to do that than getting a PhD. I think for my self esteem, going back to what you're saying on imposter syndrome, it did give me more confidence that I had made it to a point that was, um, you know, it's a terminal degree and I feel more sort of like a sense of accomplishment in myself that I did this. And I feel more confident in my understanding of how I can think and share strategy and do project planning and things when I'm working with organizations. But ultimately, what it helped me do is become this thought leader in my own right. Like, I didn't want to become a professor and stay in the university, but lo and behold, here I am years later, and I'm still writing and researching and putting ideas into the world as an independent researcher. And so it's like I didn't let go of those tools because those tools have enabled me to come up with this idea of hybrid professional identity. So the PhD ultimately has become a cornerstone of my professional prowess. but that's a very personal thing for me. I don't think that applies to everyone that gets one.

Lynn: 27:38

Yeah. I appreciate you sharing all of that and I, I thank you for even entertaining that question. so this podcast is one, I want to share some of the amazing conversations I've been able to have with people along my own change journey with the world, but two, selfishly, like, it's really good advice for me to keep getting in my own life. And I actually just had this conversation with someone this week. I still have PhD on my bucket list and the question came up like, why? And so I just love that you kind of dove through your thought process and what it gave you. and I think that it'll really benefit listeners who, and maybe they're not considering a PhD, maybe they're considering something completely else, but the advice. It's still relevant to get to the root WHY of what's driving you and use that to guide your decision. So thanks for sharing a bit more about what was going through your head.

Sarabeth: 28:44

like, you're like, can I just riff off of that for a second? When you said get to, get to your root, why that was a really powerful statement for me. Because there's a lot of different things that will help you get to your root why, and we don't actually always have to know what our why is, even if logically I was like, yes, my PhD is my way of helping me move forward and build credentials to push my career. At the end of the day, that wasn't really the why, that was just a superficial layer I could see at the time. But by going through that experience, taking that risk. Jumping off the cliff and saying, let's see what happens when I do this program. Many other things happen that I could have never anticipated or expected. And so I think the gift for anyone is try things, right? Like you're going to figure out later why you did it.

Lynn: 29:33

Absolutely. Yeah, I love that and it's really like that process of getting to the cliff seeing what's out there and Just taking that leap and diving in Sarabeth, do you have any other ways that you redrew your path that you think would be helpful to share?

Sarabeth: 29:53

Yeah. And I'm smirking, because I'm about to blow up your whole construct here because this is who I am. I don't believe in career paths anymore. I am adamant, it's an old way of talking and I think it's holding us back. And this is a big concept in my new book. So I, from my own experience in talking to a lot of people, I believe there are at least five states of career being. And I'll just paint them really fast and then I'll explain where I am. So typically we say, are you on your career path? So state number one is being on a career path. But then if you're not on a career path, then you're pathless, right? You're off the path. So state number two is being pathless. But states number three, four, and five are somewhere else, because if you're not on a path or off a path, you're in between. So, when you're in between, you can be in career freeze, where you're like, I don't know which way to go. You can be in career flight, where you're running away, you're like, I don't even want to face this decision. You can be in career fight, where you're just struggling, and you're trying, and you're trying, and nothing's working, and you're aggravated and frustrated, and you're like, what is wrong with me? Because you're trying to find the path, right? But the, the state of career being, and maybe this is number six, that I feel I'm in now is what I call career flight. And it's not the kind of flight that you think of with flight or freeze. For me, career flight is when you let go of the entire notion that there's paths at all. You don't have to be on a path or follow a path. You can be free. You can be in the air soaring and going however you want to go, up and down and sideways and backwards and forwards because To me, flight is a sense of autonomy and choice and living your best life in your terms. So that's what I think of when I think of my career now is I'm flying and I don't worry about paths anymore.

Lynn: 31:45

you're welcome to blow up the structure of my podcast anytime. I'll bring you back every episode from here on out and you can just blow up the questions because I think that that is so insightful, right? Like, we have this idea of, you know, like, what is my path? And I think for me, I think of it not just this career path, but like, what's my life path, right? And whether it takes a million curves on its way up a mountain, or it's a straight road through Nebraska, everybody has this path of life, that they're going through. But This framework really helps me think about, at different points in my career, where have I been and what has that looked like and how have I navigated that? Like, how have I navigated being in career fight or freeze and how have I taken care of myself through that? Because I imagine that's a really important component to I don't want to say like moving through that stage, but like working through that stage on your own.

Sarabeth: 32:57

love what you said about how you're taking care of yourself in these different spaces. That's a huge statement.

Lynn: 33:03

yeah, it's, it's something I've reflected on a lot. So, it's interesting. So can I ask, then, how did you come to this frame, or was there a specific point at which you started down the journey of looking at career belonging and career being?

Sarabeth: 33:24

So, when I went into my grad program for my PhD, that's when I had my most severe professional identity crisis. I literally just lost a sense of myself. I didn't want to be a teacher anymore. I wasn't a teacher anymore. All these prior labels I came into in my grad program, I was just trying to let go of. And yet I didn't know what I wanted to be next. And in that moment, I was like, Who am I in my job? Who am I in my work? And that's a professional identity crisis. So literally, everything that happened in my PhD that I didn't see at the time was creating me into a professional identity researcher. And that's what I am today. Because we do not talk about professional identity in its own right in our culture, in our society. And yet every single person who's actively in the workforce has a professional identity, and we don't talk about it. Like, when was the last time you went to a networking party and instead of saying, what do you do? People said, Hey, Lynn, how do you see yourself in your work? What's your professional identity? We don't ask those questions. But those are better and more powerful questions than trying to understand what you do. Because professional identity is revealing how you see yourself and the way you want to be seen in your work and it's language and titles that you get to assign to yourself. It's not a job title. So I've become passionate about professional identity and then fast forward trying to get to your question. What I realized is the more people I help understand, uncover, and name their professional identity, the next question became, well, where do I fit in the workforce now that I understand I am X? And X could be something like a moment architect. Or, um, uh, tension methodologists. Those are examples of titles people have created to name their true professional identity. And I think that's a really good point. If you're a moment architect, where do you fit? Like what job do you go searching for on LinkedIn? It's a very different way to do a job search. And what I was realizing again and again, is that these people are trying to fit themselves into boxes that employers have already made, but it doesn't work that way, right? Like you're, you don't want to just fit. And I was feeling the same thing in my own life. I was trying to fit in being a creative disruptor to all these different jobs. And at some point I got laid off. I think it was during the pandemic. And I literally felt like I lost my career. Like my career felt over everything I'd worked for. And I was climbing these ladders and just building my reputation and getting more notoriety. And it was like very ego based. And then it all vanished. And I went, Oh my God, I have to start over. I'm done. And that's when I started to realize. My career belongs to me. My career is what I think it is. My career has nothing to do with what an employer promoted me into, or hired me for, or told me my next step is going to be this if I achieve more of that. Like, all of that is about career fit. And I was, I've come to this conclusion on career belonging only in the last two years. Because again, I had my own crisis of like, feeling lost, and I noticed it in other people. And then I finally realized there's this other thing going on in the workforce that we're not naming. And the thing we're not naming is that your career belongs to you. You can have your own career belonging. So that's a little bit of how I got here.

Lynn: 36:42

Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's really powerful, especially to share a story about a layoff and just like what happens in your mind when that happens. So what I, what I hear you saying, and let me know if I am reflecting this incorrectly, but what I hear you saying is you had developed a strong identity as creative disruptor. And you were applying that to a career ladder that perhaps other people had defined for you. And when that career ladder was removed from underneath you, did that lead to questioning of Am I a creative disruptor or did it, really just cause you to reflect on like, who's in control here?

Sarabeth: 37:29

So the creative disruptor, just for the listeners, is the name I call myself in my true professional identity. And I think I have a hybrid professional identity because I'm combining being an artist, an educator, a researcher, and a designer. So at the intersection of all of that, I named it being a Creative Disruptor. And that is a name I came up with a handful of years ago, and I realized that name is just really who I am. Like, it explains so much. Even when I was in the classroom, I was creatively disrupting, and then I worked in strategy and innovation role when I was creatively disrupting. So it sort of became the theme of who I've been for many years and many jobs that I'd never saw until I named it. Back to the career ladder part, I kept getting jobs with increasing responsibility and salary and leverage and reach. Like the last three jobs I had in a row were just bigger and better and stronger. So it felt like I was growing and going up some kind of ladder. And, they were all in different organizations. I was like, wow, this is happening. I have no idea how. And then I got to what I thought was my dream job and I'm at the top. And it just came crumbling down, when there was a big restructure and the whole team got let go of. And I really, really lost a ton of self esteem and confidence because you can't just enter back into the workforce at that same level. there was no corollary of the job I had. It was a really rare thing in a rare field and nobody understood me. And so I would try to get new jobs explaining. I just ran this innovation ecosystem and they would go, what did you do? Like, what do we do with you? Like, why do you think you fit this role? So professional identity, you have to know yourself first before you can know where you can be valued. So you have to figure out professional identity before you can figure out your career belonging. Because if you don't know you, you don't know your career. And if you think your career is following something someone has already created or designed or told you this is the way it works and you're trying to copycat anybody, that's all external. Anytime you think your career is outside of you, you were looking at it from a very small point of view. I call it little c career. Career is outside of you, it's a little c career. But when you believe you have autonomy and power and freedom, And control over what your career is, then it's a big C career. It's much bigger than the definition we all work on. And it explodes any traditional measure of what you thought a career was because you're defining it.

Lynn: 40:03

I love that because it gives the power back to the person who is driving their own career, and it, I think when we're in the process of job searching or we've been laid off or we're looking for something different or looking to move up a level in our leadership journey, we can often feel so disempowered. So thinking of it in Big C career really gives the power back to me, Lynn, to drive my career forward, whatever that looks like.

Sarabeth: 40:40

That's what it feels like. That's what I'm hoping people get from this.

Lynn: 40:44

Yeah. Well, I love this because my second last question I ask people is around what advice you would give to others who are considering redrawing your path. And I heard so much advice, throughout the whole podcast, which is Great. and. I guess my question to you, Sarabeth, is in addition to the advice you have shared already, any other advice you would give to listeners who are thinking about making a big turn in their life?

Sarabeth: 41:13

Yeah. I think there's a couple of things. So I'll stop them off. Um, one is take time to be in that liminal state. Yeah. And to explore, part of the identity research I do is that we go through these periods of exploration before we get back to a new period of commitment. and so it's very normal to go through cycles of identity development and transition, whether it's career or other things in life. So, accepting and knowing that is really important. second. is that you've got to figure out your professional identity before you make big career changes or, decisions. And developing your resume or improving your LinkedIn profile are extensions of your professional identity. So you've got to do identity work before a resume. and that's very reflective and very introspective, and it really helps to work with somebody like you, Lynn, or me, or other people out there that know how to do professional identity work. And then once you know yourself, Especially if you're someone who has multiple interests and you keep changing gears and you're like, I look crazy on paper because I've had five different jobs in five years and all these different companies or organizations and none of it makes sense. If you're that kind of person, which honestly I think is more the majority than not, I ask people, who are you at the intersection of your multiple paths, your multiple identities? And that idea that there can be an intersection Sort of opens the lid to understand the connection and the overlap and the space between and I make people really isolate. Not just all of the things you've done, or all the professional identities you have, but the ones that are the most important. They are your greatest areas of expertise. They light you up the most. There's certain criteria. Because when you narrow down and you draw a Venn diagram of the two through four at the most. Things that are truly you, or parts of your career that are truly you, and you make a Venn Diagram of those, and you start looking at the intersection of Venn Diagrams, that is the most powerful place, I believe, people can use to make decisions, to see how to move forward, and to understand themselves, to understand what they're trying to put into the world, or become in the world. That's some of my top advice. I love Venn Diagrams.

Lynn: 43:31

I know you do because I've done your workbook and worked through your entire book and, I can't overemphasize how helpful it was to me. And I have to admit, I did this a few years ago and it was just so powerful for me to be able to look at what lights me up, what brings me energy, where do I get in my flow, and like, what am I doing specifically in those moments, and to create that identity, for myself. Unfortunately, I lost those papers in a move. However, it was an incredibly helpful process. So, I'll just emphasize to listeners, if you're interested in doing that work, Sarabeth is a great resource. so maybe you can tell listeners where they can find you and if there's anything you want to promote and when is your next book coming out?

Sarabeth: 44:23

so morethanmytitle.com is my website. I have a bunch of free resources. a lot of downloadables up there because I love empowering people and giving them tools. And then my book is also called More Than My Title, and there's a workbook and you can buy those off the Amazon. I hope to publish the next book, probably end of 2024, maybe early 2025. So in about a year.

Lynn: 44:47

Cool. Awesome. I will include those links in the show notes. Sarabeth, thank you so much for dropping some wisdom here and just sharing about your, your own life journey. And I love, I just love what I'm walking away with, which is just so many new lenses to apply to my own identity and to my own career. So thank you.

Sarabeth: 45:10

You're so sweet, Lynn. I'm really, really glad you invited me and it's really just my pleasure to share all of this. And thanks for asking me really personal questions today.

Lynn: 45:19

Thanks Sarabeth. Hey, thanks for listening to Redraw Your Path with me Lynn Debilzen and If you liked the episode, please share and subscribe. That helps more listeners find me. And don't be shy, reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to know what resonated with you. Can't wait to share more inspiring stories with you. See you next week.