Heart-Based Desires Don’t Lead Us Astray | Ep. 008 - Dr. Caite Gordon

Join host Lynn Debilzen in this captivating interview with Dr. Caitlin Gordon on Redraw Your Path!

In this interview, Lynn learns about Caitlin’s journey with discovering and becoming her authentic self. Their conversation touches on:

• The power of creating silence in order to be able to hear what your gut is telling you
• Navigating the balance between being your authentic self and gaining approval and acceptance from those around you, and how much do society’s thoughts really matter? 
• The process of grieving when your identity shifts from what you thought it was to something new and emerging

Tune in for a dynamic discussion on life and growth!

About Caite:

Caitlin Gordon is a rule-breaking holistic healer and transformation coach on a mission to empower women to pursue their most audacious desires. She teaches her clients to expertly hold healthy boundaries and nurture their physical and emotional well-being while building rich, fulfilling lives. With a potent range of expertise spanning Chinese medicine, functional medicine, neurobiology, and neotantra, Caitlin ignites passion and purpose in her clients through practices like breathwork and meditation, masterfully guiding individuals on a profound journey of self-discovery and nervous system rewiring.

Her magnetic fusion of ancient wisdom and cutting-edge psychology emboldens clients to unlock their deepest potential, uncover the root causes of their health challenges, and unearth their innate joy. Caitlin's compassionate yet provocative approach to health and personal metamorphosis touches the physical, spiritual and emotional planes, inspiring enduring transformations that set souls ablaze.

Connect with Caite:
Website: https://drcaite.com
Instagram: instagram.com/dr.caite

Resources mentioned:

• Gabor Mate  - The Myth of Normal
• Dr. Nadine Burke-Harris - The Deepest Well

Connect with Lynn:

• www.redrawyourpath.com
• www.lynndebilzen.com
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/lynndebilzen/

Transcript

Lynn: 0:00

Hey friends, welcome to Redraw Your Path, a podcast where I share stories of people who have made big changes in their lives and forged their own unique paths. Guests talk about their moments of messiness, fear, and reframing on their way to where they are now. I'm Lynn Debilzen, and my goal is to inspire you about the shape your life could take. So let's get inspired. I am really excited to share this episode with Dr. Caite Gordon with you. I think you're going to find the conversation to be really inspiring, gushy, and reflective. She is just an amazing human being. a little bit about Dr. Caitlin Gordon is a rule breaking holistic healer. and transformation coach on a mission to empower women to pursue their most audacious desires. She teaches her clients to expertly hold healthy boundaries and nurture their physical and emotional well being while building rich, fulfilling lives. With a potent range of expertise spanning Chinese medicine, functional medicine, neurobiology, and neotantra, Caitlin ignites passion and purpose in her clients through practices like breathwork and meditation, masterfully guiding individuals on a profound journey of self discovery and nervous system rewiring. Her magnetic fusion of ancient wisdom and cutting edge psychology emboldens clients to unlock their deepest potential, uncover the root causes of their health challenges, and unearth their innate joy. Caitlin's compassionate yet provocative approach to health and personal metamorphosis touches the physical, spiritual, and emotional planes, inspiring enduring transformations that set souls ablaze. I agree with all of this. I'm actually a, client of Caitlin's, a former client, and she is incredibly healing and just has such a gift that she offers the world, and I appreciate the gift she has given us and you all in sharing this conversation with us. I'm excited for you to hear it. I'm curious of your takeaways. I also referenced a book in the interview around childhood trauma and adverse childhood experiences. And I couldn't think of the name during the interview, but that book is. By Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, it's called the deepest well healing, the long-term effects of childhood trauma and adversity highly recommend for any of you who are interested in the interrelated aspects of our health and trauma, enjoy the interview. Caitlin, it is so great to see you. Thank you so much for recording on Redraw Your Path today. so I like to start with bookends with guests and I'd love to dive right in. give me some context about where and how you grew up.

Caitlin: 3:11

I grew up in southeastern Ohio. So in Appalachian Mountains in a tiny little college town called Athens, Ohio. And Oh, goodness. I grew up spending a lot of time outside. So like playing in the creeks and the ponds and running pretty wild in the woods with my friends. And I went to a very, unconventional school that was like a charter school, kind of hippie school. You know, late 80s. And had a lot of freedom and a very unconventional education from, I guess, kindergarten through sixth grade. Like, never sat in a desk, didn't do hardly any standardized testing, did a lot of theater and music and art. And that was my childhood.

Lynn: 3:58

Wow. Okay. I didn't know any of this about you. So this is really cool. And what I know about What I read about the Appalachians and growing up there, that completely is opposite and shatters any sort of, like, pre assumption that I would have had. Was it a Montessori school, or what was the philosophy?

Caitlin: 4:22

Yeah, great question. it was a group of parents who were like, we don't like what our options are in this part of the country in terms of education. Like, let's create our own thing. There are a bunch of, university professors with kids who are like, we're just going to do our own, alternative curriculum. So it wasn't necessarily based on any of those structures. But I agree, people hear Ohio and that's not what they think. The things that probably you do think about Ohio are like bad weather. Polluted, poor, um, not, not great education systems. And all of that was also true. So, yeah.

Lynn: 4:57

It's interesting because a lot of that I actually Um, don't, I've spent some time in Ohio, um, being in Wisconsin and just, like, driving east and, um, having worked with an organization in Cincinnati quite a bit and, I had a family vacation once to Cleveland, very exciting, but you're right, there's probably this, like, Northern Ohio, you know, Southern Ohio Appalachians, like, very different, um, Very cool. That gives, that gives us some sort of context with how your life began. and tell me about now, let's bookend to the other end, where and how are you currently spending your days?

Caitlin: 5:40

I am currently living in Boulder, Colorado, and I've been in Boulder for 18 years at this point, so it very much feels like home. And I own a sweet little house here, and I live in that house with my dog. And I, how do I spend my time? I've got a holistic health care practice, like a brick and mortar business here in Boulder, and I'm in there a couple of days a week, and then sort of managing it the rest of the time, and then I do virtual and in person work with coaching clients, and I host women's groups, and I hike a lot and ski and do all the outdoorsy things, um, and have a really beautiful community of friends here that I'm grateful for.

Lynn: 6:26

Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. And, and I will share too, just for context with listeners, that's actually how we met was you were my acupuncturist and you were So amazing at it and, um, you're really, really gifted in that space and it's been beautiful just to watch you grow and develop and like, for me having not known you outside of acupuncture and holistic wellness, like really multi dimensionalize yourself in terms of the types of coaching you've done and building out those businesses. So that's been really, really cool and inspiring to see for someone who is, trying to do that myself right now.

Caitlin: 7:11

Yeah, you are doing it.

Lynn: 7:12

Yeah, I am doing it. That's true. As soon as I said trying to, I was like, ah, Lynn.

Caitlin: 7:17

doing it.

Lynn: 7:19

I'm doing it. I'm doing it. We're all doing it. Um, cool. So we have the beginning. We have unconventional growing up in Athens, Ohio, and with a really alternative school. And we have where we're at now in Boulder, running a clinic, running a coaching practice, um, and spending a lot of time outside. so let's rewind a bit again. most of us grew up with some sort of external pressures or expectations that we didn't ask for. and those are sometimes intentional and sometimes really unintentional. So I'm curious, what were some of those for you? What path were you expected to take, if any?

Caitlin: 8:02

that one of the very spoken expectations was around education. So both of my parents were the first people in their families to go to college. And They both were involved in education or academia in some way, and so there was very much that culture in my household of, like, it is a privilege to be educated and you should be as educated as you possibly can be. Um, so the idea, like, I don't remember it ever being an option whether I went to college or not, right? It was like, that was for sure an expectation. And there was also quite, um, a lot of expectation that I would continue on and do graduate school or some additional kind of training. And in my household, there's a lot of you get love and approval for excelling academically. And so that was something that I grew up with a lot of, um, conditioning around, I guess I'll say.

Lynn: 8:57

Interesting. How did that show up? Or like, what did that look like?

Caitlin: 9:02

Well, I think it looked like I I derived a lot of my self esteem from how I was performing in school. And, and there was a, I mean, one of the ways it showed up that was challenging is as soon as I wasn't in some kind of education system, I had this period of time where I was sort of like, well, how do I know that I'm a good person? Like, how do I know that I'm doing it right? How do I know? Like, I was so attached to getting validation in this very structured, specific way that then all of a sudden I was like, but how, like, How do I get the approval? You know, like, what do I do? And, and that was hard.

Lynn: 9:38

Yeah. Not having that, expected approval or expected system or ways that you get approval, with having a focus on the academic excellence, did you get any implicit messages around what wasn't important or, you know, like what not to focus on in

Caitlin: 10:00

My mom was really in the, era of feminism and she was sort of classic feminist in the sense of, I remember being young and I would, I have been like a girly girl since I came out of the womb. I mean, I have just naturally been, it wasn't like I learned that from society. Like that was my natural way to want to dress up, to want to like play with, with jewelry and makeup. And like, I just, that's how I was. And this crushed my mother who was like, all I want is to raise a daughter who doesn't care about her appearance because that's not what matters. And like, it's so, you know, it's so messed up that society has taught women, that that's all that their value is based around. And so my mom tried so hard to, to really steer me away from associating my worth with my appearance. And the inadvertent impact of that was actually felt very shamed for the part of me that wanted to be girly in the way of like, that wanted to be in the clothes and wanted to be in a, um, feeling beautiful or like how I looked. And I mean, to the extent that like friends, when I was little, like seven or eight would. We'd be at a holiday party and one of my mom's friends would be like, Oh, you look so beautiful. My mother would go, don't tell her she looks beautiful. Like tell her she's smart. Like that level of like, do not, you know, compliment her on these things that don't matter.

Lynn: 11:15

It's really interesting because when we think about how we raise kids today and just the messages and especially around gender and, and how we attach appearances to validation or success or whatever it might be. there are so many just. Unintentional impacts of whatever we do,

Caitlin: 11:38

Yeah. I think anytime we, we sort of give the messaging to kids that how you are naturally isn't okay, it creates. a lot of stress internally for that child, and a lot of identity conflict, right, of like, oh no, the way that I naturally want to express myself in the world isn't the way that my parents think I should.

Lynn: 11:55

yeah, yeah. And, and that's, it's interesting because that's exactly how this podcast came about was my own grappling with, with that. I just turned 40 this year and I'm still feeling like I'm figuring that out and grappling with like, how do I naturally be who I was meant to be, rather than who the world wants me to be or who my family wants me to be. And, you know, no matter how much they try to untangle that. You still are, are raised with those beliefs or with those really heavy observations, especially for children who are very in tune or sensitive with, expectations that are placed on them. it can be a really hard, hard thing to wrap your mind around and to feel, to build confidence around being who you naturally

Caitlin: 12:48

As you were saying that, it made me think about another piece, as you were talking about, like, being sensitive, because I know, like, you're very sensitive and empathic, and so I'm sure that impacted your experience growing up, and I'm that way as well. And with the intense academic focus, there's also a very like linear thinking, logical thinking, science based value system. That was like being emotional is a liability. you need to be regulated and polite and whatever. And I of course was naturally extremely emotional and extremely sensitive and extremely intuitive because you know, it's like that's the karma of the family system, right? There's always like the kid that's the opposite thing of the parents. Um, And so that was hard too, is like having so much conditioning around, like your emotions are a problem and in order to be successful and loved, you actually have to be really good at intellectualizing everything. And like, don't feel your feelings, like definitely don't express them.

Lynn: 13:42

Yeah, oh my gosh, that hits home so much, especially when you said Being emotional is a liability and your emotions are a problem. Oh, okay. I love this. I'm So excited, um, to hear. So like then as you were continuing, growing childhood into adulthood, I'm curious, what was the first big way that you redrew your path?

Caitlin: 14:08

Yeah. There was a very sort of specific moment I was finishing up my last semester of undergrad here in Boulder. And. I had taken the LSAT for law school and applied to a bunch of law schools and was on this trajectory to go into law, but specifically like either human rights law or environmental law, which again, very much family value systems like liberal values, which is like, you need to be in service, you need to be doing something good for the world. You need to be like making a difference, helping people who need help, like that was also a huge value system, like expectation around what I did with my life. And at the same time, I was having a lot of health issues at that point in my life. I was having pretty bad anxiety and insomnia, and my immune system was really dysfunctional. And I had been seeing a psychiatrist who was recommending that I go on, like, yet another psychiatric med for the anxiety and the insomnia. And I had this moment just thinking, like, I'm twenty years old, maybe I was 20 or 21. I'm like, I should not be on four pharmaceutical medications at this age. Like this is not correct. And so I went to see an acupuncturist as sort of a, you know, last ditch effort to be like, maybe something alternative will work. And it was so transformative and so impactful on my health that I literally woke up one morning. It was like fall of 20. Oh my gosh, what was it? Like, early 2010, 2011? And I was supposed to put a deposit down for law school like a week later. And I just was like, I don't want to do this. I actually think I should go do what my acupuncturist does. I think I should go to school for Chinese medicine. And in my head, I'm like, they're both three year graduate programs. acupuncture school is not cheap, but it's a little less than law school. And if I'm going to spend that much of my time and energy, why don't I do something that I Actually really wanted to. And I remember making that phone call to tell my parents and being like, Oh, this is not going to go well.

Lynn: 16:12

Yeah. And how did it go?

Caitlin: 16:14

you know, like any good potential lawyer, I had put together a really convincing case for like with all the stats on like what they make per year and like why it was a good investment and like what my plan, like I really laid out the argument for why it was rationally a good choice I wasn't like, oh, I actually had an epiphany. My gut instinct says this. I was like, here's why logically this totally makes sense. And, and presented my case and my parents being the logical people that they were. We're like, okay, if this is what you want to do, like we support you.

Lynn: 16:47

Wow, what was the timeline between the morning epiphany and that phone call?

Caitlin: 16:56

Maybe a week.

Lynn: 16:58

Okay. Wow. And were you grappling with any sort of Oh, like this is what this means for my life. Like, is this the right thing? Were you questioning yourself at all? Or were you just so certain?

Caitlin: 17:13

I wasn't questioning a lot. There have been a few major moments of my life where I had. This sort of gnosis, this like, deep in my body knowing, and haven't looked back, and this was one of those.

Lynn: 17:25

Okay. That, that's really beautiful. I, I love that. And I know you are so, so gifted at Chinese medicine and acupuncture. And so, I'm grateful that you chose that path. You helped my health and my life. were there any sort of, like, you went through the logical, you know, laying out the argument, but were there any narratives that you were rewriting for yourself? Or like, what did that mean to define Caitlin, if you were going to be Caitlin the acupuncturist rather than Caitlin the lawyer.

Caitlin: 18:03

Yeah, there definitely was an identity shift in, in realizing like, oh, people aren't going to respect you because of your title in the same way. In fact, if anything, you're choosing a path in which people are going to assume things about you that, like, you aren't well educated, that you aren't a science based person, you know, they're going to make all kinds of assumptions about who you are, and it'll be very different than if you're a lawyer. Like, you will not garner the same level of respect that you would.

Lynn: 18:34

And have you found that to be true at all? There have

Caitlin: 18:38

been moments, there have absolutely been moments where I'm in a conversation with someone, not in a long time, but more early on in my career, you know, and someone's like, oh, you know, like equating my acupuncture degree to a massage therapist and not saying anything about a massage therapist, but you're like three years of legit grad school is not the same as a massage therapy license. and just the general lack of education, understandably, that people have around what goes into having that skill set, but also there was this beautiful thing that happened over time of realizing like, I don't actually, I don't have anything to prove, like, I got to a point where I was like, I don't, I don't care if people think I'm smart or know what I'm doing or like, believe in what I do. Like, I don't need any of that anymore.

Lynn: 19:19

love that. I think for myself, I'm very much still reminding myself that I don't have anything to prove. And it's interesting when I will share with someone And maybe, you know, sometimes I think, okay, maybe if I nailed my elevator pitch and like, that would just fix all of this. But, when I share with someone like what I do or what I have done in my career, and even with two master's degrees, they kind of like dismiss that. But then, if they'll find out, okay, I studied and I studied engineering for three years in college, like 20 years ago, who cares? Right? They're like, oh.

Caitlin: 20:00

Great. Now you're impressive.

Lynn: 20:01

Yeah, now you're impressive. And it's

Caitlin: 20:03

Which is so messed up. you're

Lynn: 20:05

yeah, and it's, so messed up. And so, and that's, I mean, exactly why we're here recording this episode, because I think I'm still very much in it of realizing I don't have anything to prove. And I am like, smart and perfect, just the way I am, whether or not I had those graduate degrees, whether or not I even went to college, you know, whatever that path was going to be, and that everyone is. but we hold such expectations and such strong beliefs around what it means to be an engineer versus a nonprofit professional versus a lawyer versus an acupuncturist or Chinese medicine practitioner, and it's really messed up.

Caitlin: 20:49

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much. It's based on societal value based on hierarchical value, right, that we decide, like, these things are more worthy of praise and admiration and these things are less so. And it's based on a set of values that are so outdated anyways.

Lynn: 21:07

yeah, yeah. And those values are often, I mean, very much embedded in patriarchy and in white supremacy and all of that. And, it just gets really complicated when we're trying to untangle them inside, or at least for me, it's felt very complicated. So you made the decision to get your graduate degree in Chinese medicine. You felt really strongly about that. I love that. Um, what was, what was the next way that you redrew your path? Or what was your big next big aha? I

Caitlin: 21:43

I would say the next big redrawing of my path was I went through a breakup when I was 31, after being in a seven year partnership with someone that I thought we were going to get married and have kids. And that breakup was so challenging. I mean, the hardest thing I've been through yet, I think, and not just because of, you know, the attachment with the person I was in relationship with, but because it was requiring me to let a particular vision for my life die, which is like, I am at 31 deciding that this is not the path I'm going to stay on. I'm not going to stay with this person. I'm not going to make a family with this person. I'm going to go into the unknown. Um, you know, will I meet someone else? Will I start a family with someone else? Will I end up having enough time? You know, like the biological clock piece. So, you know, and also the, again, expectations around as a woman, what it means to be single at different phases of your life. And like, it's what that means about who you are and your value. And there was a lot that came up for me in that choice. And I've essentially been, I mean, I've dated, but I've essentially been single for the last six years since, which in and of itself, you know, people socially, culturally look at me and go like, well, what's wrong with you? Right? Like something must be wrong with you to choose this.

Lynn: 23:08

feel like, okay, you're hitting my soul so hard right now. because, yeah, it's, it's interesting when you think about You know, you hear the word breakup, and I, I think a lot of people who are married, might dismiss that, right? Like, it's a breakup, whatever, you know, it's not a divorce, it's not anything serious, but you talked about like the grief of letting this vision for your life die. And, and what does that mean for you? And so that can be a huge, huge transitional point in your life. And that idea of being a single woman in your thirties, is really big and heavy. And it is always to do with the thoughts around, like, what are the societal thoughts about that? And nothing to do with what is wrong with anyone, right? so I'm curious, what were the narratives you were rewriting? What was really going on in your head as you kind of let that future life pass you, pass, pass away? I don't know. I don't know. Do I like the word pass away or die?

Caitlin: 24:19

We're letting it go. Yeah.

Lynn: 24:21

Let's stick with that. Yeah, we're letting it go. Mm

Caitlin: 24:25

Yeah. Um, there was a lot of fear around, can I run this business? Can I? I bought a home, you know, can I own a home and run a business and like do life, can I adult by myself and feeling both empowered and realizing like, wow, it's just me now. And then also terrified of like, wow, it's just me now. And And I think as more time went on and I didn't get back into a serious partnership, the harder it got to not succumb to the idea that it's always better to be in partnership. Like, I really had internalized the belief system that, like, the ultimate goal in life is to meet your person and then stay married for as long as possible. Like, we really glorify that as, like, that is success. Which is hilarious. It's hilarious. Um, and it's actually, because if you look at the people in long term partnerships, you're like, are these people happier than the people who aren't? Like, absolutely not. Like a tiny percentage of people who are living that life are happy in it, but it still is this, I, you know, it's still like the fairy tale that I was conditioned into being like, that's what I'm supposed to do. And so a lot of my early thirties was me feeling like a failure and feeling like I had to figure out what was wrong with me and fix it so that I could meet that standard.

Lynn: 25:46

and it kind of goes back to to this idea of like, Well, you, maybe you can't have it all, right? Like, maybe successful women professionally, you know, there's something wrong with them that personally they really struggle in figuring it out. And that could not be further from the truth. And I like that you touched upon this, we almost always buy into that fallacy of Partnership is better, And in reality, in many ways, it brings ease and it's easier because our current world and capitalist system is not built for people to live alone. Yet we, we tend to create this myth also that You do have to do it all on your own and, how hard we make it to do on your own, incentivizes partnership in many ways. Um, so that sounds like it was a really realization

Caitlin: 26:51

I think I also felt, you know, the one hand there was so much of this movement towards like, be the strong, independent, badass woman. Right. And I was like, well, I'm crushing it at that. But then there was this other side that was like, yeah, but also subtly that's You only do that because you can't have this other thing. And so like, and, and trying to feel into like, what was my truth? Like, did I actually want to prioritize partnership and family, or was it not true that that's what, and I realized sort of throughout that process in my early thirties, that it actually wasn't what I wanted. And so when I finally gave myself permission to just be like, what I want is to pour myself into my friendships and my community and my work, because that actually is what feels the priority in my own healing and if and when that changes and partnership becomes the priority like I will shift accordingly then But it felt like such a relief to get to the point where I just gave myself permission to want what I wanted

Lynn: 27:47

Wow. Do you feel like there were any specific tools or practices that helped you get there, both to the realization of what you wanted, but also the acceptance and embracing of what you wanted?

Caitlin: 28:01

Mmm, probably a lot of different things Let me think I got into a daily meditation practice in 2018 And I do think that making that time to really sit with myself and feel myself, like, feel my own feelings, like, tune into my own energy helped me have a better sense of what was mine versus what was conditioning versus what was expectation versus what was programming. And my inner compass, my inner voice, was easier to listen to and follow when I space to really be with it. And I think that was One thing, yeah.

Lynn: 28:40

Yeah, meditation is so powerful. it's something that I think I've gone in and out of, you know, and now, have been meditating daily for the last six months or so. And it's felt really like just really helpful for getting in touch with that inner voice. and I like that you mentioned like, what is, yours? versus what is expectation and what is, a story you've been sold. And I think we do have to take that time to get really clear on that. one of the, one of the times in my life where I felt really good about that was, I remember when I moved to Wisconsin, I was around 34, 35, and something silly, like, Oh, like my, my birth control method was up and I was like, do I want to, you know, like, renew? Do I want to renew my subscription? Or do I maybe want to, like, get my hormones in check And, have kids someday, right? And, when you're entering into that period where it's like, you're going to be a geriatric pregnancy, you want to think about that. and I like took a full year to really just try to figure out what I actually wanted. And now I'm like really intentionally and very excited about being child free by choice, but I had always assumed that I was going to have kids and that I wanted kids and now looking back I'm like And I love kids. My, I have a master's in child development. Like, I love kids. but realizing that like for me in my life that that wasn't the right path. Oh my gosh, I felt so empowered. Just realizing it and accepting it and just like owning, what does that mean for my life and being excited about it. And I think without taking that time and I, I, I was practicing meditation at that time and just getting in touch with my inner voice. that can be really, really powerful for people to just give themselves that. time to unravel that. Thank you for sharing and it's hard to go through like a breakup and then to think through the identity and the grieving of a life that you thought you were going to have. are there any other ways that you redrew your path? since then that you would want to share with listeners.

Caitlin: 31:03

Yeah, there are. So, there's a couple more moments that sort of weave in with the story. One was in maybe around 2019, 2020, as I had been a couple years into meditating and really more deeply devoted to a spiritual path. I sort of made a 180 in whereas which many people hear acupuncture, Chinese medicine, and they already assume it's spiritual or esoteric or energy based. And I had spent the first eight years of my career just fighting for legitimacy as a science based medicine and really practicing often in that way. And as I really deepened into my spiritual journey, I sort of came back around to more of the esoteric energetic spiritual dimension of what I was doing and what healing is and started to weave that back into my work and that felt like another moment of redrawing my path because it's letting go of needing to prove the legitimacy of what I was doing and really giving permission for the mystery and for um, things that science can't measure and for the part of me that has always been very connected to that.

Lynn: 32:12

I love that. Can you say more about like, what did that look like? And what were the, you know, what were the expectations from the world that you were kind of rewriting there,

Caitlin: 32:22

Well, on a practical level, it looked like including a lot more resources and support for my patients and clients around, what is your connection like to nature? What is your connection like to something outside of yourself? What are your interpersonal relationships? Like, how are the health of those things? Like, really looking holistically at things outside of, like, what are you eating? How are you exercising? How's your sleep? To, like, holistically, what are all the influences on your energy that are impacting your health? And so, like, diving into trauma on a deeper level, nervous system healing on a deeper level, but also, like, weaving in You know, science based elements of those things, but also just that having a sense of our, our place in the greater whole, whatever that looks like, is an important piece of feeling like we belong and like relaxing into our lives and connecting with other people. and so then the work I was doing with my coaching clients dove more into meditation, breath work, visualization, like those practices too. I was just gonna say in terms of like society, you know, there was another moment with my family where I was like, wow, I'm having more moments of conflict, especially with my dad, of talking about something and then getting that feedback of like, well, there's no research that supports that. Or like, that's not a real thing. whereas I had kind of shielded myself from having any kind of accusations like that from people for a long time.

Lynn: 33:43

Interesting. How did you deal with that?

Caitlin: 33:46

it's funny, my dad's come a long way. I would just pick very specific types of books and things to send my dad as gifts, and my dad being the open minded man that he is would read them, and then he would kind of come around. I just tried to offer alternative perspectives that other people were making arguments for rather than me.

Lynn: 34:08

That's great. I know you were the I think I don't remember if you were the first person to recommend, The Body Keeps The Score to me, or if you were the most important person to recommend it, and then I finally bought it. But, it's interesting, I know, several years ago after I moved here, we had done a consultation and you had, you had, like really, really, expanded in your recommendations for reaching optimal health. And I had worked so hard on diet and, supplements and, making sure that everything physical was there. And, you know, I think forgetting the emotional and trauma that's embedded and, and also the social, right, like, am I going out and having fun once a week, things like that, that we don't often think of as important pieces in our physical health, but is very much, I mean, everything's so intertwined. So I think you've, you have been like really a leader. In that space for, for my, for me, at least, I can speak for myself, but I think, you know, just like leading patients along that, along that journey. So that's been really powerful.

Caitlin: 35:23

Yeah, thank you for that reflection. I, as you say that, I'm like, oh right, kind of forgot that we did that consult, but I love that you actually read the book. I mean, it's such a eye opening book to read when you've had years of chronic health issues, to look back and go like, oh, this stuff started way earlier than when my symptoms appeared.

Lynn: 35:43

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's, it's been interesting to see it embedded. So what's the book that I read about, childhood trauma and ACEs and just how much that's impacted, our health. And that has really, I mean, I saw it come mainstream in my work in Wisconsin, and the work. I was doing related to academic and employment outcomes, and just to see something like that, that, you know, we might consider a little like woo woo, you know, like childhood trauma, whatever, like that doesn't make a difference in whether someone's going to go out and get a job today, but it absolutely does. And so just to see some of that work and research be embedded in more mainstream, cultures, I think has been really, really powerful and to me has really, started to etch out the puzzle of health and the puzzle of our lives and how intertwined every single aspect is.

Caitlin: 36:51

Yes.

Lynn: 36:52

Anything more you want to share about that type of redrawing your path that you did? Oh,

Caitlin: 36:58

guess I'll just reiterate that that was a great book. When I got more into practices and belief systems that don't have the same scientific rigor behind them, that it was really a moment to have to let go of needing everyone to understand me and needing everyone to approve and needing everyone to think that what I was into was legit. And it was that, that final thread of like, oh, I don't have something to prove, and the people who resonate with this perspective and who want this kind of support are going to find me, and the people who don't, that's okay. But it was, I think for most of us, it's, it's a pretty intense experience to realize that, people are going to misunderstand you or not like you or think that what you're doing is wrong or bad because We associate, you know, we're tribal beings and we so associate our safety with being accepted and liked by people. And so it can feel very scary to choose any path that's going to draw criticism. and it was definitely another moment of being like, oh, people will criticize this and I'm going to do it anyways.

Lynn: 38:03

I love that. And it's, it's so powerful just to own that and, and the realization. I think I've developed a lot of shame around seeking external validation. And just, Hearing messages like what does it matter what other people think or why do you care what other people think and developing internal shame around that. But I think you mentioning that we are tribal beings and we want acceptance and we want love from the people around us. And we want people to be like, yeah, good job. and then that's an okay thing, but also holding the truth that there are going to be people that aren't your people and that that's okay.

Caitlin: 38:43

Yeah. I mean, you're probably familiar, like Gabor Maté talks a lot about this. sort of binary between authenticity and acceptance, and that we are always in this position of sort of trading one for the other. Like, if you were going to be fully 100 percent authentic all the time, you would lose a lot of acceptance and approval from people, because there's lots of ways in which you wouldn't be meeting societal expectations or Family expectations or social norms, even, right? If you look at people on the far end of the eccentric spectrum and we call them crazy and we outcast them from society. And that might be the ultimate expression of authenticity for all we know. But like, you don't get the love there. Because people are like, uh uh, you're not behaving in an appropriate way. And then you have, like, the far other end of the spectrum, which are, like, the people pleasers who have no separate sense of self, no identity, they're totally malleable and chameleoning to try and please everyone, and they feel totally lost inside because there's no authenticity there, and, like, that is also a terrible way to live, in my opinion. But most of us are trying to navigate, like, where do we want to fall on that spectrum so that we get enough love and approval, that we feel connected, but that we're authentic enough that we can still like ourselves, that we still feel true to who we are.

Lynn: 39:56

I'm actually not familiar with that work. Is that a book that you'd recommend

Caitlin: 40:01

So, all of his work is amazing. So it's Gabor Maté and he, his most recent popular book is called The Myth of Normal.

Lynn: 40:07

Mm, I'm ordering it today.

Caitlin: 40:10

you'll love it. He has a great Instagram, he has a YouTube channel. There's all kinds of ways to hear him speak. But, very wise, human, and really his body of work is around, the impact of, of trauma, essentially. But also looking at Things like addiction from this very compassionate lens of, you know, we only develop addictions because we're suffering and we're trying to use something to numb. And so having a more maybe progressive, compassionate, humanitarian approach to issues like that.

Lynn: 40:40

That's really beautiful. And I'm, I'm excited to dive in because my visual brain is very much like thinking about a slider along the acceptance, authenticity spectrum. And okay. Like today, am I going for a 60 percent authenticity, 40 percent acceptance, or, do I feel like it's a day where I can go 90 percent authenticity and where am I along that?

Caitlin: 41:06

Yeah, Yeah, And I like to hold the vision that if you, you find the right people, like my goal is to be right as high on acceptance and authenticity as I possibly can get. Um. But it takes time. You have to be willing to walk away from certain relationships, right? And, um, you have to be willing to disappoint people.

Lynn: 41:26

100%, which is, just a daily practice and a constant thing I'm working on. but it's really exciting to get closer and closer to the authenticity piece and to feel you're right. Maybe it isn't one or the other. Maybe it's not, both of those equals. The same thing. It is both of those can be maximized and how do you surround yourself with the right people to feel that full acceptance and to feel that full authenticity. I love that.

Caitlin: 41:58

Yeah, it might be a smaller circle, but it's probably worth it if the rallies are authenticity.

Lynn: 42:04

Yeah, quality over quantity for sure. Caitlin, any other ways that you've redrawn your path?

Caitlin: 42:11

I, in 2020, when everything shut down, brick and mortar businesses were struggling and. Like so many other businesses, that was a point in time where I decided, Oh, I should have online offerings. And what does that look like to develop an online business? And I had been playing, or I actually, I think I had started doing a little bit of business coaching already the few months prior, and that really catapulted me into being like, okay, I'm going to do business coaching for women, like I'm gonna really enter into this space. And that then grew over the last few years into like a full second business and coaching practice. But it certainly was a moment of redrawing my path to go, what does it look like if rather than my full time job being Eastern medicine doctor, being acupuncturist, if I'm this other thing now, and if I only do that very part time and, and then even contemplating like, what would it look like to sell that practice? What if I stopped doing this altogether? Having been so identified as my job and my work for so long, and I'm still in that process of my, you've got a lease that, that's up in the end of next year, and then I'll have a choice point of do I continue to run this practice, this in person clinic, or do I go full time into my other business? And. And I really have so much empathy for people who are making career changes because it does, you do identify with what you do and it becomes this thing of, of having to let go of a certain identity and then the grieving process that is inevitable in that. I've already anticipated whenever the point comes when I decide, if I ever do, that like I'm not gonna be this thing anymore and that it's, it's a courageous process for people to do that.

Lynn: 43:58

Definitely courageous and challenging and enlightening and all of those things. And I'm really curious to continue learning how that process goes for you. Because, yeah, I think in an ideal world, we. want to hold all the identities, right? and be successful at all of the things. and in a universe where our time is finite and our energy is finite. And, there are certain limitations. You do have to make some of those hard decisions. And that oftentimes comes back to impacting our identity in ways that we didn't expect.

Caitlin: 44:43

Yeah, absolutely. As you were saying, I was thinking, I'll share this because someone listening might find this helpful. In my transition into the coaching world, for a couple years of that, um, 2021, 2022, I really focused on sexual health, intimacy, and, and relationships. And so I was doing A lot of coaching and creating a lot of content around sacred sexuality and, and sexual health. And it was such an edge for me to, like, I had so much deep fear come up around, What's my family gonna think? What are my patients at the clinic gonna think? Like, is this, um, am I being unprofessional somehow because I'm talking about sex? Like, there was so much internalized shame that I didn't even know I had. That got brought to the surface in, in pivoting towards that being the topic that I was sharing on most. And really this sense of like, am I gonna get cancelled? Like, because I'm talking, talking about sex, which is, you know, now looking back it's kind of funny because I'm like, we weren't doing anything wrong, like, why were you so worried? But it felt really vulnerable and scary to To potentially be misunderstood in that way again, right? To have, like, what if acupuncture patients of mine are uncomfortable because I'm teaching a class about orgasms? You know, like, truly worrying that my business would fall apart, that people would abandon me, that I would be, like, burned, like, like, witch trauma or something, you know?

Lynn: 46:19

mmhmm

Caitlin: 46:22

and I just share that because I think sometimes when we're redrawing our path, we're doing something that Isn't just different but that feels inherently vulnerable and scary like, like we might die if we do it. No, not at all. It was all my own. I mean, I'm sure there were some people who didn't resonate with the direction I was going and they quietly left my space, but I didn't receive mean messages. People were not, you know, if anything, people were curious. And so I had some of those like, Oh, what are you up to now? Um, like polite curiosity moments where I could tell there was awkwardness, but no, nothing. My, you know, my business only grew. It didn't harm my brick and mortar practice at all. My family was so much more supportive than I thought they would be.

Lynn: 47:14

Oh, yay. That makes me so, so happy for you. And I think for everyone else there in the world that's like considering doing something that feels really scary or feels so intimidating or brings up that fear of being canceled that, you know, like you just, you, you get to do it. And we live in this place. That is a free, you know, free country. And, for better or worse, it's a free country. and you, have the opportunity to be your full self and give your gifts to the world. And even if that means that that is expanding your identity in a way that's unexpected, that it is probably going to be embraced. And it is definitely going to be embraced by the right people. Right? And the right Right? group of people. And if, if you are feeling that urge to expand into a space and that if your current people aren't accepting of it, there are going to be the right people that, that are.

Caitlin: 48:22

Yeah, absolutely. It's like, we really only find resonance with other humans when we're clear on who we are and where we stand. Like, the more outspoken you can be about that, the stronger the magnetism for your people. And so there is really value in being willing to take a stand for something or to show up, with an unpopular perspective or with a controversial view on

Lynn: 48:46

Absolutely. Caitlin, any other advice you would give to others considering redrawing their paths?

Caitlin: 48:53

Yes, I would say when you're considering redrawing your path to really tune into whether you are redrawing your path based on a heart centered desire or whether it is based on what I would call more of an egoic desire. So often we like quote unquote manifest from our ego which means we actually manifest from our conditioning from the You know, from the belief that more money is better, from the belief that more popularity is better, from the belief that if I have this role or title or accomplishment then I'll get love, which are all guaranteed ways to end up with the thing you thought you wanted but still not be happy. Yeah, so if you're redrawing your path, just to really tune in to like where is this coming from? Is it really coming from a deeper why that isn't about? You know, thinking I'll get love if I do this thing, um, because I think that we can sometimes make expensive and, expensive both in time and money choices because we're hoping to gain that approval and then we get there and the approval didn't scratch the itch and then we're. Stuck feeling like we have to redraw our path yet again, which there's nothing wrong with that, but heart based desires don't lead us astray in the same way.

Lynn: 50:16

Yeah, they'll get us to that, that feeling of fulfillment much quicker. and sometimes we do need to go through the, the messy parts and following that egoic path and realizing it's not right either. And you'll get there eventually. Awesome. thank you for that. So where can people find you and is there anything you would want to promote or share with listeners?

Caitlin: 50:41

can find me on Instagram at dr.caite, C A I T E, and drcaite.com is the website. In terms of things I am promoting I would say if you want to know what I'm up to, just hop on the email list. It's always there. It's always a new emergent process. And so who knows what I'll be teaching about in 2024. but I always have space for one on one clients or at least a space opening up in the next few months for one on one clients. If that's something you're interested in.

Lynn: 51:13

Awesome. And I always love your newsletter, by the way. So I, I always read it. or if I don't have time to read it, I star it and come back to it later. so yeah, much appreciation. Thank you so much for joining us today. And, I'm excited to get your story out into the world and thank you for sharing your wisdom.

Caitlin: 51:32

thank you so much, Lynn.

Lynn: 51:33

Hey, thanks for listening to Redraw Your Path with me Lynn Debilzen, If you liked the episode, please share and subscribe. That helps more listeners find me. And don't be shy, reach out and connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love to know what resonated with you. Can't wait to share more inspiring stories with you. See you next week.