Jeff Galloway and Creigh Kelly and the History and Rapid Growth of American Road Races and runDisney

The Magic Mile Challenge is revealed! Join Carissa and Westin as they step in for John, who is off on an Italian adventure, and dive into the highs and lows of marathon training. This episode includes an exclusive interview John conducted with running legends Jeff Galloway and Creigh Kelly, revealing the fascinating history and rapid growth of American road races, particularly those for women. Carissa and Westin also share their personal experiences and results from the recent Magic Mile challenge, shedding light on the physical and mental effort involved in reaching their impressive times.

Take a nostalgic trip back to the roots of the running community as Jeff Galloway and Creigh Kelly recount their early days, from quitting smoking to establishing the iconic Phidippides running store. Hear about the excitement and challenges of managing the Peachtree Road Race and the dynamic growth of running events in cities like Atlanta and Denver. This episode also highlights the monumental influence of Disney marathons and Jeff's innovative run-walk program, which made marathons more accessible to a broader audience. To finish, we share practical nutrition tips to help training athletes incorporate protein into their diets, ensuring they stay fueled and ready to conquer their next race. Don't miss this inspiring and informative episode that celebrates the spirit of the running community!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to 3-2-1-Go the podcast. I'm John Pelkey.

Speaker 2: 0:05

And I'm Carissa Galloway and we're bringing you stories from start to finish to keep the everyday athlete motivated to keep moving towards the next finish. Hey, there, it's not John. John is once again enjoying life in Italy. He really is a lucky guy, far luckier than he should be. But that's not the point, because he's still delivering and here on 321 Go, because he taped an awesome book into the growth of American road races, especially for women, with two legends in the industry.

Speaker 3: 0:38

That's right, john sat down with 1972 Olympian and run Disney training consultant Jeff Galloway, with 1972 Olympian and Run Disney training consultant Jeff Galloway, who's my father, and Cree Kelly, former race director of the Colfax Marathon. He was, and will always be, a loved Run Disney announcer, a lifelong runner, competitor, race director and an agent, and you'll find out a little more about all of those things.

Speaker 2: 1:03

And, yes, that's Weston Galloway doing, I think, his best John Pelkey impersonation, filling in for John too. On our chat and the wrap of our episode Today at Healthier you, we're going to talk about ways to pack protein into your day. We'll share a listener email about racing in the heat and thank you, thank you guys, for listening, thank you for following along. We are right at our one year anniversary, so please rate us and if you want us to keep going, look in the show notes for how to be a sponsor. All right, weston, thank you for you, for I mean, you have no choice. It's a phone for john. You kind of had I was here.

Speaker 2: 1:52

That's the one critical piece of the other option was claire, who I believe declined to john is gallivanting in italy and does not have any time for a measly little chat.

Speaker 2: 2:04

But we do have something very exciting happening, very exciting indeed. We teased on social media that Weston and I both did our magic mile last Sunday and the question, the poll, was would he beat me by more than 90 seconds, yes or no? Most people said that he would win. We do not know who has won. Claire is here to deliver the results in real time, and then I guess we're gonna have to do some math to see claire. Who do you think won? Was he 90 seconds faster than me? Man, no one has any faith in me. Okay, here we go, the magic mile reveal. If his has a 5 in front of it, I'm getting up and I'm walking out of this chat. Oh, no, no, that's impossible, that is impossible. Yo, this guy ran a 519. That's impressive.

Speaker 2: 3:03

Yeah, mine, I ran a 722 519 almost 2 minutes and you said you were going to run like maybe over 6 that's what I thought. I know, so I thought I was going to win, because I had you.

Speaker 3: 3:18

Whatever happens on the day happens 519 too bad. There was nothing actually like riding on this.

Speaker 2: 3:24

I'm not over this. So what does your Jeff Galloway magic mile predictor say? You should be able to run a marathon in with a 519 mile.

Speaker 3: 3:33

What I previously have run a marathon in.

Speaker 2: 3:36

Cool. I don't know if I want to continue this chat. I'm a little bit like the wind is knocked out of my style. I ran 72222, which I had done 7.57 before, so I felt very strong about this progress.

Speaker 3: 3:47

I was surprised at my 5.19,. I will say I was thinking in the 5.40s.

Speaker 2: 3:53

Did you look at your watch at all?

Speaker 3: 3:54

Once.

Speaker 2: 3:55

When.

Speaker 3: 3:56

About halfway through, maybe how much did it hurt Terribly.

Speaker 2: 4:02

Why are you moving your chair? That's, that's not. You stay in your spot.

Speaker 3: 4:05

No I'm moving. Uh, it hurt terribly I how terrible. Like more than a college 800 okay, not that terrible, okay, um, but what you have said in recent days of doing a fart lick, or a tempo effort all of your fartings that have been done in the last few days, that fart lick that that actually hurt more than your magic mile. So possibly you have more to give.

Speaker 2: 4:36

So I was actually going to say that my heart rate and my magic mile did not go above 159, which I'm a little bit embarrassed about now, but the first one that I did hurt so incredibly bad that I was like terrified that I was going to get to that point where, like people on the trail were like wondering if I was okay, cause I was like, and you're just grimacing like your face, like when it starts to do that, so I started slower and then I will say this magic mile when we run has a 31-foot net downhill but it does have some ups and downs. And then we turned instead of going straight, which is a little more up in air quotes.

Speaker 5: 5:12

Do you?

Speaker 2: 5:12

use the magic mile by yourself. Excuse me, claire, would you like to speak into the microphone? You're going to do a magic mile when you go to Jeff Galloway's Tahoe Running Camp. Yeah, yeah, I did it last year. Yeah, she did it last year, so I bet you're gonna totally improve this year. Um so congratulations, weston. What are you training for?

Speaker 3: 5:31

I am training for the disneyland halloween 5k and you've never, no one's ever, won that race no one has ever won that race I think you should not talk about trying to win that race on this podcast, because then you will have people like oh yeah, I know I for anything in my life I'm not going to talk about, uh, putting out something specific in a running or athletic sense ever in your whole life from now on, it's, it's.

Speaker 2: 5:58

I don't know but like when you were younger, would would you be like I'm going to win? Maybe, To like peers or just like to your family.

Speaker 3: 6:06

It's more of like a personal thing. When I was in high school, college, it didn't really happen because I knew that was never going to happen to win something. So in high school I would put it out there because I knew it was an actual possibility. But anything going forward in my athletic career let's call it a career it's not really a career at all. I'm not going to put anything out there.

Speaker 2: 6:30

Even to me.

Speaker 3: 6:32

I mean well the thing about. So I excel at winning things when people don't care to try to win them Like the three Disney 5Ks you have won. Exactly. It's all about any random high schooler that shows up, or brazilian.

Speaker 2: 6:49

Brazilian just happened to like walk by after going to downtown disney. I don't know this 5k very fast that's nowhere near any portuguese accent.

Speaker 3: 7:00

Uh, so, yes, it totally depends on who shows up. Uh, if the default is that I am the fastest person there, then I get some confetti and it's all great. But uh, yeah, no, in in no way am I in shape to say I will definitely win any race in the foreseeable future.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Two things happen in Disneyland. One everybody shows up like everyone like starts training. Now that's like semi-fast. They know exactly what your magic mile is and they gun for you. Or somebody goes out and is ahead of you and hides in a bush so you can win, just to hear yourself talk about winning. And then they're laughing secretly.

Speaker 3: 7:36

Well, I also. I will say, especially at Disneyland. Well, I don't know where it's going to start.

Speaker 2: 7:41

Probably there's a map that we haven't looked at yet.

Speaker 3: 7:43

Possibly. They probably do have courses. I'm sure they've certified them many times by now. I do have a slight advantage in getting to the front of the corral.

Speaker 2: 7:55

Well, they shouldn't say that either. I know, I know you have to be there. It's very important. You need to be there with Jeff.

Speaker 3: 8:00

Oh, it's very important oh, it's very important I'm a very important person. I have to walk. They take me there. I know I actually have to. Actually they usually put me in the back of the corral and I have to like I usually don't kind of like weave my way, but sometimes you might because if you start oh no, a minute behind somebody, that happened to you last year at disneyland.

Speaker 2: 8:21

Right, you started too far back and you were like in top five maybe. Uh, the other question I have for you is your last big goal. You didn't put out there publicly. You just don't put things on publicly, like you, don't? You have an Instagram.

Speaker 3: 8:32

I have so many avenues to put things out publicly and so many people are going to see it.

Speaker 2: 8:36

Instagram, facebook. My point is one I would just like you to like share that you're still married to me a little bit more on social media, so people don't ever get confused. Um, your sub three marathon was a big goal of yours, true or false?

Speaker 3: 8:51

true, because it qualified me for boston.

Speaker 2: 8:53

I'd never run boston and I wanted to do that but you had tried years ago in new york, circa what year?

Speaker 3: 9:00

15 to go sub two.

Speaker 2: 9:01

Yes, sorry, you're not.

Speaker 3: 9:03

Elliot.

Speaker 2: 9:03

Kipchoge, I always do that.

Speaker 3: 9:05

I did try.

Speaker 2: 9:06

You tried to go sub two. Everyone has failed at that, except one person. And then one person would have succeeded. May they rest in peace. But you failed then. And just terrible weather, the art of the marathon. Do you like to put out goal? Do you dislike putting out goals because you're afraid of failing?

Speaker 3: 9:26

No, I don't think that's it. I think one kind of like the 5k you never know who's going to show up, you never know what the weather's going to be, you never know. You know there are a lot of unknowns out there. And so I think putting out goals is good, and I do. If it was like super, super important and to like keep me honest and to keep me on track, um, I do think that's good. And I kind of did. Leading up to the, the sub three attempt, I kind of documented my story, to my chagrin, on social media and put it out there so that it would keep me honest and and working towards that goal.

Speaker 2: 10:04

So no, I don't, I have nothing against it, I do think it's good, I just don't do it okay, when you went, when you were, did it put pressure on you like your marathon, the year, which was 2022, maybe the year you went sub three? Was there pressure? Not really no, because what do we say? Nobody cares.

Speaker 3: 10:24

Everybody's been asking.

Speaker 2: 10:26

Everybody's been asking and nobody cares. That was a big accomplishment. That was really exciting. If you were, you know you say you did this 5K. It goes well and I know that. The other issue people don't know. I know because I live with you. So you're getting old and every day something else is hurting you. What currently hurts you?

Speaker 3: 10:40

Hamstring hurts.

Speaker 2: 10:46

Got two Hamstring hurts, got it. I did 400 this morning.

Speaker 3: 10:49

You don't have to whisper you did four 400.

Speaker 2: 10:50

You are fine, Four too many. If you said, okay, I'm going to run a great half in January, what would a range be that would make you happy? Because I don't think that on that course you could get close to your personal best and a half.

Speaker 3: 11:04

I think it all just depends. I think I would like to say I didn't train super hard for my PR, so if I really put six months whatever we are away into training for a half, I could get close to the PR. Do I want to work that much into it? Possibly not. I think in the 125 range could be doable if I so. My default used to be 130-ish. I used to kind of be able to run here and there and run a 130. Now it's like a 140.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Well, if we look at your times from last year, sometimes I walk 10 milers.

Speaker 3: 11:49

But yes, I think if I put some sort of effort in to training and don't get injured, 125-ish okay, what do you think I will run my marathon at in December? How hard are you going to try?

Speaker 2: 12:08

Okay, what do you think I will run my marathon at in December? How hard are you going to try? I mean, I don't, you don't know. Like what do you? I have a 722 magic mile right now. I have a what four? What's my PR? 419, 418.

Speaker 3: 12:19

Once again. How hard are you going to try?

Speaker 2: 12:21

I'm trying, this is me trying.

Speaker 3: 12:26

How much is it going to do? You want it to hurt.

Speaker 2: 12:29

I think I've. I think that I have in the past and since where we live now I get to run more. It's harder to run because of the kids in the schedule. I think I am more, more better at living in uncomfortable and wanting to experience that and for the first time ever and this may backfire I'm actually adhering to the. Your long runs are supposed to be slow Because, before you know this, I just hated seeing anything over a 10. I just started to panic and I was like how am I supposed to run 26.2 miles, you know, at a nine minute pace if I can't run them at a 10 minute pace? Oh my God, I'm terrible. I'm horrible, blown up, crying on the side of the road several times, walking into the 7-Eleven.

Speaker 3: 13:06

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. How likely is it that you sit on the side of the road? I'm not going to sit on the side of the road, I've done that before.

Speaker 2: 13:12

I think that I'm at a place where I'm trying to train differently and I'm ready to experience a different level of discomfort and then just 409.43. 409-43. I would take 409-43. The other thing I'll say about that race is I think there's going to be a lot of people that I know there.

Speaker 3: 13:28

I think you're going to go with the four-hour pace group and then try to hold on.

Speaker 2: 13:33

Did you interrupt me?

Speaker 3: 13:34

There are going to be a lot of people there's going to be a lot of people.

Speaker 2: 13:37

I just said that I won't sit down on the side of the road.

Speaker 3: 13:39

Oh, that.

Speaker 2: 13:40

Because I'm not going to sit down on the side of the road in front of people, that I stand on stage and tell them to not give up, and then I've given up. I think that if it was a 415 pace group, I would what's your?

Speaker 3: 13:48

why Carissa Hi?

Speaker 2: 13:50

Why am I doing? This is my, why you get to do this. I don't know how to do it.

Speaker 3: 13:55

There will be a day you can't do this and you're sitting on the side of the road.

Speaker 2: 14:00

I at a race every day. No, I am prepared to work hard. I have been doing a good job with my training so far. I started very early, chris Twiggs, and I have a plan. What I was going to say is I think I would, at this point, start with 415, because I don't want to go too hard out.

Speaker 3: 14:16

Even 420.

Speaker 2: 14:20

Is that a group I also hate?

Speaker 3: 14:23

It's a fun group.

Speaker 2: 14:24

I have a love-hate relationship with pace groups because they stress me, Because you just I think I think more about the watch and the time and the effort.

Speaker 3: 14:32

It's supposed to be the exact opposite.

Speaker 2: 14:33

I know that it's supposed to be the exact opposite, but Shut your brain off. I just Do it. Occasionally but anyway.

Speaker 3: 14:46

So that's where we are. Congratulations, Weston, on winning the Magic Mile. I would say rematch, but I don't know. We could put it at two minutes and then it would be really hard for me.

Speaker 2: 14:50

Two minutes, fine, we can put it at two minutes. Then you have to hit. I mean, it makes it much easier Then you know, I'm okay, we'll put it at two minutes and then in a month.

Speaker 3: 15:05

if I don't win, then what have coffee?

Speaker 2: 15:06

Zero coffee. That'd be terrible for everybody. All right, weston. Before we get on with the interview, I want to talk a little bit about Sprint, the show on Netflix that is highlighting some of America's top sprinters, if you haven't seen it. Noah Lyles is in it, zarnel Hughes, a little bit of Marc Jacobs, gabby Thomas, sha'carri Titi, and then all the Jamaican women that you always get confused Shrieker Jackson, elaine Thompson, hera and Shelley M Fraser Price. Why do they have so many names? Thoughts on Sprint. We do have two episodes left where they're going to show what happens in Budapest. Thoughts on Sprint.

Speaker 3: 15:39

I think it's great. I really like it, I enjoy it. I obviously like to see kind of the backside of things and how everybody's training is going, how their life. I think that life is the coolest thing for me and I want more of that.

Speaker 2: 15:52

Yeah, I'm not seeing enough of that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 15:55

They do like one sit-down interview in their house and I would love a crib-style episode. Take me around your house, show me how many shoes you have. Only Noah. We talked to his mom More moms, more dads, more family. I think it's like a surface level. I would hope that a second year would be a little bit step in that direction. Fred Curley has echoed these thoughts.

Speaker 2: 16:25

Yeah, no, I think Fred isred is right like I want deeper. This is like a cute, like almost a documentary of like they're running and there's a little bit of interesting things about the gamesmanship that goes into the sprinting and things like that. But I definitely want more and I'm wondering if they were like hedging their bets like first it's only six episodes like thinking it might not be that successful, like people wouldn't watch. And maybe people aren't watching, maybe we're the only ones obsessed with track. I mean, obviously you're not going to get like grant I know I would be interested.

Speaker 3: 16:49

Yeah, so they have what did kincaid.

Speaker 2: 16:51

Nobody's knocking down his door. What's grant's last fisher?

Speaker 3: 16:54

grant fisher they're supposed to be.

Speaker 2: 16:55

I mean, there's some grant holloway, you would be an amazing. I don't know why you guys didn't include him um the rivalry there's he has one and parchment yeah, that's about it if you've gotten like five of the references from what we've said, just say names of American distance runners and see if you know who they are.

Speaker 3: 17:11

Go.

Speaker 2: 17:12

Name five American distance runners. This will be so easy for you.

Speaker 3: 17:15

Carissa Schweitzer.

Speaker 2: 17:17

Lise Craney.

Speaker 3: 17:19

Woody Kincaid.

Speaker 2: 17:21

I already said him.

Speaker 3: 17:22

You didn't say I couldn't.

Speaker 2: 17:23

Okay, abdeener, see 1500. 1500.

Speaker 3: 17:33

Got nothing.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Cole Hawker, eric Neguse, hobbes, kessler, women's 1500. Ellie St Pierre.

Speaker 3: 17:39

Corey.

Speaker 2: 17:39

McGee.

Speaker 3: 17:40

This is why I don't talk on a microphone.

Speaker 2: 17:42

All right, it's fine.

Speaker 3: 17:45

Oh, I was going to say it would be interesting if we were able to see so they've done these series on tennis, they've done it on golf, They've done it on Tour de France.

Speaker 2: 17:57

Formula One Started with Formula One Right-ish.

Speaker 3: 17:59

Yeah, that's the kind of pinnacle of this series.

Speaker 2: 18:03

Claire is so bored by this conversation because she just wants to go to Mojo's house and swim.

Speaker 3: 18:07

And to see the viewership of all of these, because I would guess I don't know if all the other ones have a bigger viewership, because they are a little bit more shiny and the viewership on TV of these sports is bigger. So does that make cycling? I don't know, but I don't.

Speaker 2: 18:29

I mean you can't deny the Allura formula one is significantly higher than people running in a circle or a straight line. But thank you guys for putting out sprint. I would love to see more and looking forward to seeing. I'm a little trepidatious to see what comes out with the Simone Biles one that's coming out on the 17th. I'm interested to see that. She's just phenomenal. But she went through a lot and I think it's. It's hard to listen to what she went through, knowing having been in the sport myself and my daughter being in the sport. So it's a high pressure sport, isn't it, claire? All right, well, thank you, weston, for joining us for the chat. If you guys want to do a magic mile, how you want to get. They don't know what a magic mile means because it's not. It is as simple as running a mile, but there's a little bit of nuance that goes into it. How can they find out more about a magic mile?

Speaker 3: 19:13

You can download the Jeff Galloway app. There is a magic mile calculator in there and basically it is very simple. You run a magic mile. Idea is to run it as fast as you can without puking and then you can input your time in the magic mile calculator and it will tell you paces that you should ideally run your training runs at, or it gives you predictions of what you are possible at that given time of in a uh in whatever different distance that you want to uh achieve Yep Also possible with the customized training that you want to achieve Yep Also possible with the customized training that you guys will hear about a little later on in this episode.

Speaker 1: 19:49

Hey, carissa. Since we're talking about travel, today's the perfect day and really every day is the perfect day to shout out to our good friend Sarah Akers. That runs on magic, because if you're going to plan some travel, carissa, don't do it on your own. Just look at me, folks Travel Carissa. Don't do it on your own. Just look at me, folks, you need some help. Sarah's there to help.

Speaker 2: 20:06

She is. So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, okay, I want to try Disney Cruise, which one works for me? Which one works for my family? When are they more affordable? How do I even know where to start? Guess what? Sarah Akers is here for you. Head over to her Instagram. She can answer your questions. She's a run Disney lover, she's a Swifty, she's a travel lover and she will set you up for an amazing Disney cruise. Or it's okay if it's another cruise line. That's fine too. Sarah Akers has got you. So thank you to Sarah Akers Runs on Magic Travel for sponsoring and keeping us on the move.

Speaker 6: 20:39

Okay, civilians, it's time for the goods. Let's get on to the interview.

Speaker 1: 20:50

All right, Welcome. 321. Go21. Go the podcast to Jeff Galloway and Cree Kelly, a couple of gentlemen I'm happy to say are friends of mine and whose reputation looms large in the running community. Cree, I'm going to start with you. Can you remember meeting Jeff? Let us know when that was. Was it prior to the written word? When did you guys?

Speaker 6: 21:10

first meet. It was very close. It was in 1975, a time long, long in the past, but it was. I had just, we had just discovered my first wife and I, whose great friend Beth, had discovered that she was pregnant with our first child. And, truth be told, I had read an article at that same moment that day in one of the journals that I subscribed to, because you always had to have a lot of journals and magazines on your coffee table back then, Next year ashtrays.

Speaker 6: 21:54

And I read that you shouldn't smoke around a pregnant woman. And I had stopped running in 1968, right after college, because I wasn't an olympic style athlete. I was okay, but I wasn't great. I was just a decent conference runner in my college conference and so I told beth that we can't smoke anymore because you're pregnant and you're not. You know it's, it's contra, it's a contradiction, and so we stopped smoking. I was smoking a pack and a half a day, I was a marble man. Because you're pregnant and you're not. You know it's a contradiction, and so we stopped smoking. I was smoking a pack and a half a day, I was a marble man and I literally stopped on a dime, never went through withdrawal. There was no weirdness to it, just okay, I'm done with that.

Speaker 6: 22:42

And I belong to a little athletic club and in Atlanta and actually in Marietta, and I was telling this guy that I tried my old Adidas, which we called Adidas running shoes, my running flats from college and they seem not to feel very good because they were that old, seven years old, and he said, well, you ought to go down to the. There's a running store in Atlanta. I said what the hell is a running store. You know. I mean we went to tip Schaefer's Sporting Goods in Westport, connecticut, you know, to get my kids and and I said, yeah, it's called Fidipides and you should go to Hanson Ansley mall. So I drove down there, I walked in and I may or may not be right, but, bob Varsha, you can look these people up. They were legendary runners.

Speaker 1: 23:38

I know Bob.

Speaker 6: 23:38

Varsha Lee Fiddler. I don't know if Benji was in there or not, and Jeff was there, but I didn't know any of these guys. They just all look like good runners, and they were really good runners. And so, um, eventually I found my way to Jeff and he said what do you want? And I said I need a pair of running flats. He said, well, we call them running shoes now. And and, uh, we got to talking. I found out he'd gone to Wesleyan, you know, in Connecticut, and that's where we'd had the state meet, you know, back in 64. And when I ran the two mile, and anyway, he said how about Nike Roadrunners? They're 1999. And I seemed like a great thing.

Speaker 6: 24:31

And then we got to chatting and I said, um, I really, you know, even when I was running in college, I was never really coached. I mean, in a sense, my god bless them, but they're, you know, they just I don't know what they did, but it wasn't much. And uh, so, um, he said, why don't I? I'll give you some ideas for workouts. I said, well, I travel a lot. He said, well, just call me long distance, and you know. And so he started to give me this ad hoc coaching, and you know, by this time I figured out he was a 72 olympian. I told him that I turned down tickets for to go to munich in 72 because I was a a company battery commander in the military in germany and I gave the tickets that I was offered to one of my troops and so that they could go and we watched on our little black and white tv. But anyway, so he coached me and that's how I got to know Jeff.

Speaker 1: 25:30

All right, jeff, let me ask you were you actively coaching people at this point in time? We should point out to anybody who doesn't know that Fidipides was your store, one of the very first, if not the very first, specialty store for running. So was that something you were doing or were you just drawn to Cree? Did you just look at Cree and go? This guy needs help.

Speaker 5: 25:50

Well, let's say all of the above, john.

Speaker 5: 25:54

However, I will say that my main reason for starting Fidipides was not really to make a lot of money, but just to provide a service to the community. Not just to have running shoes that were very hard to find at the time, but to provide training programs and the ability to change your life in a positive direction through exercise. That was my next mission after making the Olympic team, and Fidipides was the way that we did that. But I had already been coaching a lot of people and having groups in the store, and one of the reasons was we weren't bringing in enough sales in order to keep the store open, so I had to expand to other types of business and the coaching was something that I did. And I do remember Cree. I remember that very, very vividly, that meeting that we had, and particularly because Cree would call me from various cities where he was traveling and I had to shuffle through my papers and find what I had told him last time, or at least try my best to do that, yeah no, kidding, that's, yeah, different time.

Speaker 1: 27:20

There you didn't have a smartphone that you could give notes to yourself on. Well, let me ask you this, jeff, because again now, uh, and for people wondering my advanced age, I'm about I'm going to turn 60 in a week, um, but I remember uh, running the early seventies and uh, mid seventies. Jeff, you and I've talked about that gym fix, total is running book and all that sort of thing. But you know, today you can find a half marathon in a dozen places on any given weekend. But but back then people were, you were training people just really for the good reason, as you said, to keep in shape through running. When did you start to feel that that was building towards something where now people were wanting to get together and do this sort of thing?

Speaker 5: 28:11

It was the Peachtree Road Race, and the scenario there is that I actually started my business in Tallahassee, florida. Things were really slow in terms of business and in terms of interest in running, and I kept in touch with the people in Atlanta where I had spent my teenage years before I went to college, and they told me that this Peachtree Road Race that I had won in 1970 was really developing quickly. It had grown from 110 people the first year to 1,200 people by 1975. That doesn't sound like a lot, but back then that was a huge increase. But back then that was a huge increase. And the only other place in the country where road races took place regularly was up in New England where I went to college and where Cree is from, and interestingly enough, jim Fix lived in Connecticut too. So there was a lot of connections that way. That way.

Speaker 5: 29:34

So back to 75, I decided to move my store up to Atlanta and we had the store in operation for about a week when the race director of the Peachtree, tim Singleton, came by.

Speaker 5: 29:44

He was an old friend and I had done a number of projects with him over the years and he desperately wanted me to be involved in Peachtree because he had just accepted a job out in Texas and he was moving out of town.

Speaker 5: 30:00

So he collected a group of three of us to manage the Peachtree Road Race and we managed it right out of the store because the Atlanta Track Club did not have a facility, they didn't have an office, they didn't have anything. It was just a group of people and not many of those. So, anyway, the whole concept then once I got in Atlanta was that there was really something going on, and very quickly. My co-director of Peachtree, bill Neese, who actually became part of Pheidippides a year later, was very much familiar with leading business people in Atlanta and the thing that really caused Peachtree to take off was that we connected up with the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. A young executive there named Jim Kennedy, who he was just entry level at the time doing promotional things for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He later became CEO of Cox Enterprises and just a mega media organization.

Speaker 1: 31:21

Right.

Speaker 5: 31:21

But he saw the vision of what we had. We wanted two things we wanted to bring in world-class athletes who I knew, and we also wanted to promote, through the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the fact that training for an event like this could get you into good shape and could change your life and could allow you to be healthy, sometimes for the first time in your life. And of course, cree was living that. I mean, he was coming out of smoking and not doing any exercise, so he was like a cover child.

Speaker 1: 31:59

Well, cree, because that was where I was going to go with you. You know, you've gotten back this because you're going to quit smoking and you're thinking you're going to have a child, and I'm sure there's a thought of, you know, I want to be around for my child and all those sort of things and all those good reasons to do it. But now it's growing into this sort of competitive thing. I mean, where were you on that when you decided, hey, I want to Fidipides.

Speaker 6: 32:17

So Fidipides and Jeff, you know, got me so interested in running and I'm living out in what they call Mayreda and it was very. Marietta was a very. It was a bedroom community, but it was very rural comparatively speaking. But it was developing quickly, not anymore.

Speaker 1: 32:47

Not rural anymore.

Speaker 6: 32:48

Yeah, Well, and at the time I had just built a house. I didn't build it, but I had a builder. I was in a very successful career path for a company called Lendman Associates, putting on career conferences and basically hiring conventions, and I was lecturing on career planning, job placement, and I was doing it throughout the Southeast and that's why I would call Jeff long distance. I'd be in Florida, some military base or Alabama or wherever, and the military loved me because I would come in and teach these young, separating junior military officers after Vietnam. There was a ton of them and they needed jobs and they were a perfect candidate for Fortune 500 companies. So, anyway, I was living large. I mean, I was making a ridiculous amount of money and I reflected on that many years later. Boy, I'd love to have that money back.

Speaker 6: 33:54

But the truth of it was I started getting involved with Atlanta Track Club through Jeff and they put on races, excuse me and they put on races and I wanted to see how I was doing and I found out that I was reasonably okay Now, okay back then. And if people have run a 10K, I could run a 10K after Jeff's training. After just a year and a half, two years, I was running 3250 for a 10K. That's fast.

Speaker 5: 34:35

Yeah, that is fast.

Speaker 6: 34:37

But in the context of the Peachtree Road Race, that wouldn't get me in the top 100 at that time. Wow, so the world has changed, but it was exciting to me. And what?

Speaker 6: 34:50

was exciting was the community that I had entered into through the running and through Fidipides. Fidipides was a place you always went to. It was where your people resided, it was where your friends were and it was where stories were told. And, as an example, john Parker, a great friend of Jeff's and a guy that I got to meet through Jeff, wrote a book called Once a Runner. Well, one day Jeff called me and he said are you in town? I said yeah. I said you've got to come down to the store. I'm going to have lunch with John Parker. He's got the galley sheets for Once a Runner and we're going to go over them and somebody will have to explain to somebody someday what galley sheets were. But and so I was so excited and I went down and here we were with these long galley sheets and Jeff and John Parker were sort of editing it and changing words and laughing about this was this person and this was that person, and I mean I was getting an inside look. All of that became such a thing that I wanted to be more a part of that.

Speaker 6: 36:08

I went home one day and told well, first I went to Jeff and I said I love this running store stuff. I want to do that. And I said, so, can I open up a store in in Atlanta or Marietta or somewhere? And he goes no, we're, we're, we're full up on that. But you know, you ever been to Denver? And I went, no, but I understand they ski out there and I love to ski. And so he said, well, you can open up a store in Denver. Ok, so I went home to my wife who was once my wife, because this was what led to the downfall of my marriage, but in a in a funny way.

Speaker 6: 36:54

But I said, you know, we're going to move to Denver. This is back when, you know, men sort of made the decisions on behalf of the family, unless you were very avant-garde. That's the way it was 50 years ago. And so she said, why? And I said don't open up a running store. And she just looked at me. I mean, there was this woman that her grandfather was superintendent of the Naval Academy and her father, you know, was Pearl Harbor during the bombing. And they were, you know, this was anathema to any of that. So anyway, that's what happened. And so that is how I ended up relocating in 78 to Denver and opened up a Fidipides, and it was like nirvana.

Speaker 5: 37:45

It was just when things were really taking off.

Speaker 1: 37:47

Yeah, it's so interesting to me too and I wanted to ask you this, jeff, if you know, because races in New England. It makes sense because we've talked about this before. As I've grown up, the Boston Marathon was really the only marathon that I had any any inkling of at all. New York maybe shortly thereafter. But what do you think was about Atlanta? And for people who may not know and again, I am old enough to know this after the civil rights and coming into the 70s, atlanta was one of the fastest growing metropolitan areas in the country. I mean, atlanta was hot when I was supposed to get out of college in the mid 80s it's still I'm waiting to do. That was really, really the place to go, but that had started then in the 70s. What do you think it was about Atlanta? Because you think of Tallahassee, it's also a college town, it's a good size as a state capital and it just didn't take off there. What was it about Atlanta?

Speaker 5: 38:38

Atlanta from the time that it became a commercial hub, was a vibrant community. It was a crossroads of not just businesses but ideas and the key was education, because not only did you have technology, covered by Georgia Tech and several other technical institutions that were quite formidable, but you had Emory and you had a whole host of Georgia State and other state organizations that were educationally designed and in terms of the educated community community, I don't think that you'd find, overall in about 1975, any big city that had a higher level of education than Atlanta did.

Speaker 6: 39:43

So it was always take off. You had the sports team, you had national sports teams, you had a big airport. There was just a confluence of. I mean, when I went to Atlanta, it was because, principally, one of my army buddies, a lieutenant in Germany, relocated to Atlanta and got involved with real estate commercial real estate because everything was growing. He said you got to come to Atlanta, man. This is where the money is, this is where the action is, and that was really true.

Speaker 1: 40:17

Yeah, and it stayed that way, all right. Well, jeff, let me ask you this question then why, when Cree asked, why Denver? Why did you think that was a place?

Speaker 5: 40:26

Well, one of my best friends is Frank Shorter. One of my best friends is Frank Shorter and Frank had relocated out of Florida to Boulder and we had stayed in touch and I knew darn well that there were a lot of exciting things for elite athletes in Boulder and that they were transforming the concept in Colorado that it's not just a skiing Mecca, it's a running and fitness and hiking Mecca, and that was really starting to happen in a big way at that time. Yeah, Go ahead, craig.

Speaker 6: 41:05

Well, I was going to say, and all of that opening up the store was so much fun because, just like I was in 75 with Jeff in 78, there were people that were coming out of the woodwork that wanted a running store. Now Frank had his Frank Shorter Sports up in Boulder, but that's a good 45 minutes away, so it's a completely different group of people. Um, and so I, you know Jeff helped me understand a good location and all that other stuff. And so, um, there was just a thirst being quenched by this running store and quickly I formed a Fidipides track club with another guy. I wasn't the first, but a guy came and he said you know, there's this running club, rocky Mountain Road Runners, which I was on the board of already. I mean, I just sort of gravitated to leadership things. But we started the Pheidippides track club and, just like Jeff did, we had and just like John Hughes today does a track shack in Winter Park.

Speaker 6: 42:21

We had running groups out of the store. We had clinics. People would come in and give talks. I mean I had Bill Rogers, jeff, I mean I had Olympians. I even got Frank Shorter angry because Mary Decker Slaney but maybe people remember more as Mary Decker, maybe Mary Slaney, but she was a world-class runner, running at University of Colorado and she worked at Frank's store. Well, I had met her in 78. Jeff had a running camp, which was just great, in Hard Labor Creek.

Speaker 5: 43:01

Park. That's right, just outside of Atlanta.

Speaker 6: 43:04

And so Jeff had this amazing running camp which I attended and I remember it was the first time I ever saw a woman spit on a run it was Mary Decker, you know. But I couldn't believe this woman was staying up with us. You know, at this pace we got to be friends and I told her it's going out to Denver to open up a running store and she said well, you know, get in touch when you get out there. You know. Well, you know, get in touch when you get out there. You know. And so I did. I went up to Frank's store and I think it was Tim Cronin or somebody wouldn't let me in the store practically because I was the enemy, and and and it didn't take long to be the enemy, you know, you were either friends or you were the enemy. You were the enemy. And so Mary eventually came out from the back somewhere in the store and I said hey, would you come down and give a talk at my store? And she said, sure, I don't think she ever told Frank until it was after the fact. Well, she came down, she gave a talk and Jeff had a clothing line, the Fidipides clothing line, and they had these really cool.

Speaker 6: 44:16

I mean Renee, my wife. He said, please, no, ever wear those short shorts again. This was the way how you wear. And so they were these shorts, and they had a white mesh panel on either side. Well, after she gave the talk, I said is there anything you'd like in the store? I'll give you, you know. And she said can you get me a pair of those black Fidipides running shorts? They look pretty cool. And I said, sure, here, take them. And she off she went. And I said sure, here, take them. And she off she went. Frank was livid later on because she appeared on the cover of sports, illustrated winning the national cross-country championships in these philippines shorts. And he had a clothing line frank short, oforter Sports.

Speaker 1: 45:10

That's the digression, but it's just no, no, no, no. This is, and that's why we wanted to have this conversation with you guys, because you know you've shepherded this sport to a certain extent, along with a number of other people, into a place now where you know one of my cottage and, by the way, I made ridiculous money too. But it was ridiculous for the other reason. It's like ridiculous you could live on that sort of money. So good for you, thanks for.

Speaker 1: 45:33

But now you know, one of the things that I do the most is I do a lot of corporate five Ks in the morning here, because we have conventions here and I mean these are things that were unheard of back in that time. You know it would be more of a to your point create, be more of a corporate smokeout. Everybody grabbed their, their cigarettes and go, you know, hang out, but OK. So now people are, and it makes sense with Denver too. It's an active city that's looking to be active year round. And when did it get to the point where it's like, well, we need to start organizing some of these races in and around the area too, because people listen, you can train all you want, but we're competitive as animals and, at a certain point, people want to go hey, let's. Why don't we all get out and run together? This can be a lot of fun, but it's also going to quench that thirst. When did that happen for you?

Speaker 6: 46:21

Well, for me it was. I made a couple of strategic business mistakes, and not Jeff's fault was mine and not Jeff's fault, it was mine, I claim it. I decided I would sub-franchise stores and I would have a network of stores in the Metro Denver area and that caused me to lose a whole lot of money. Well, in the process I realized I need to get people back in the store and I can't afford to pay for advertising. And Jeff said you know, have talks in the stores, have group runs and if you can get involved with the organized running events that are there, do that.

Speaker 6: 47:08

So I joined the Rocky Mountain Roadrunners and got on their board and then watched how they put on races and as a former, you know, military officer, it was all about operations and how to do it. And I said well, hell, this is easy, I can do this. Easy is qualified. It wasn't as easy as I thought, but it was relatively straightforward stuff. So I volunteered at these races to learn how to do things and eventually said I'm going to put on races, because if I put on the races then they'll have to come into the store to sign up for the races and the whole thing.

Speaker 6: 47:57

And and Jeff, I think was the one and people could debate this till the cows come home. But the truth was he's the one that invented registering registering for a race in a store. Come in the store, you might get a discount but you can get everything one-stop shopping kind of thing. And so I did that and then I offered that service to other running events and eventually, by 1979, I put on my first race. 1979, I put on my first race. I ironically named the Sporting House Five Mile because it was a sporting house. There was athletic clubs called Sporting House until they realized the true name Sporting House in England meant a house of ill repute, so they changed it to the sporting club, but at the time it was the sporting house five mile and that was the first race that I put on.

Speaker 1: 48:57

I don't know. I'm thinking that there's a group of people that might sign up for that one pretty darn quickly. All right, jeff, I want to ask you this because obviously you know it's a great marketing idea. You're going to bring people in store to do this. And now, as this is starting to grow marketing idea yeah, you're going to bring people in store to do this. And now, as this is starting to grow, are more people reaching out to you at this point to get advice for how to, if they don't have a running story to put on a race in a certain area? I'm just I'm curious as to how it started to grow to other urban areas.

Speaker 5: 49:27

Yeah, it was because Atlanta was a market in which people came for conventions and all types of things. They would find their way to our store and then they would say the same type of thing that Cree was saying how can I do this in my city and and can you put this on? Well, I did some traveling to set these things up, but it got to be too the community which at the time, people were really throwing sponsorships at us.

Speaker 5: 50:20

It was a very different time because it was new and the media actually was quite interested in showing people out there walking and running on the streets and sponsors were interested in getting involved.

Speaker 1: 50:37

That's really interesting to me. Now, outside of the sponsorship, because that makes sense, I have to assume that some of these metropolitan areas were not ready for somebody to come in, and I mean the number of hoops you have to jump through and I'll jump down to you, craig, as you're nodding at this to put one of these races on someplace like Denver or Atlanta. What was that like early on, explaining to the municipality this is what we're going to do and what we need.

Speaker 6: 51:05

Well, it was a challenge and for me I was a neophyte. Um, just seemed to me, you know, as Dave McGillivray, the so many year decades race director of Boston, once said draw, take a piece of chalk, draw, draw a line on the road and say go. You know that's a race. And uh, and I'd grown up in Connecticut in the early 60s we had created a summer running series just to stay in shape for cross country A bunch of us and our high school coach, and we used to literally just about do that. It was a progressive race series in Westport, connecticut, and Laddie Lawrence, one of my dear friends, he, the he and I were co-cabins across country team. He's been the coach there for over 55 years now. But anyway, the point was there weren't police involved there, it was just you and the cars.

Speaker 6: 52:08

And so in Denver it was very different. It was a metropolitan area, there were rules, regulations, and I had to navigate those waters. But you learn them quickly because first of all you want to know how to do it, and Jeff had expertise in that area and so he would share that, and once he did that I just sort of learned it was. You know, it's an exponential learning curve. But once you learn it, I figured out I want to be McDonald's. I want to do this every weekend, because the more I did it, the more people would come in.

Speaker 6: 52:48

And so in 1980, with a couple of friends of mine, we formed a management company to put on races, and that was in December of 80. And I'd only been in Atlanta for I mean Denver for two years. And so I was became a pariah at some level because I was a for-profit company in the face of all these nonprofit running clubs. And they kicked me off the board of the Rocky Mountain Roadrunners. You know, they said it was a conflict of interest and and I had people tell me in 1981 that you know, you can't do this.

Speaker 6: 53:39

This is it's, it's almost immoral, because you're putting on races and you're trying to make money. You know, this is a sacred sport. And I looked them straight in the eye and said I've been running before you were born and if it's sacred, then I'm. I'm the God, you know. And I said you know? And they said well, we're going to put you out of business. And I said you know who's going to put me out of business or keep me in business? It's the runners, the running community. So watch me work and eventually I just start taking over the big races.

Speaker 1: 54:16

It's interesting too because you know, follow the money. It's as a neophyte. I think sometimes that's helpful for you, because if you don't know, something can't be done. You know, you don't, you're going to, you're going to try to do it. But the fact that now it's morphed into these races raise a good deal of money for the people who put them on and then vast amounts of money for for so many good causes. Jeff, I want to jump to you and ask what about pushback? Did you run into pushback when you were helping out with these races and these again, these municipalities where it's like you're going to shut down streets, you're going to do this, that and the other thing? Did you run into any kind of negative forces?

Speaker 5: 54:58

Absolutely.

Speaker 5: 54:59

As a matter of fact, I did help the original race director of the Peachtree Road Race, Tim Singleton, in that very first year, 1970.

Speaker 5: 55:10

But I did not get into the negotiations that he had with the city people to be able to use Peachtree. And years later I was at a dinner with Tim sitting next to him and the thought suddenly hit me that he had never told me how he got permission to run down Peachtree Street on July 4th. So I put that question right to him and he said hey, it's real simple, I didn't ask. The bottom line was that he had worked through a number of senior police officers when he put on other races, so he already had this group of people within the police department that knew how to work the system. And when he came up with the idea of running down Peachtree Street, he said he went to his key policeman, who was this rough old guy named Captain Forrester, and told him and Forrester first blessed him out for just being stupid about running down Peachtree, and then he said well, if you really want to do it, what we're going to do is ask forgiveness later on.

Speaker 1: 56:27

Ask forgiveness, not permission. How often do I say that?

Speaker 5: 56:31

Well, july 4th in Atlanta at the time early in the morning, was a time when there was just very little traffic on the roads anyway, and so that's how he got it.

Speaker 5: 56:42

But in terms of the pushbacks, yes, we got it regularly Because as Peachtree grew, for example, and as Pheidippides grew, other people wanted to get a part of this thing, and some of them had good motives, like Cree, and others did not. They just wanted it for their own benefit and, as a result, there would be counter groups that would coalesce, and this actually occurred in the Peachtree Road Race. After my group handled and managed the race from 1,200 to 12,003 years, there was these groups, these cliques within the track club that wanted to take over the race because they saw everything happening there and they pushed us, literally pushed us out. And you know, quite honestly, we had so many opportunities at that time, including putting on the very first Avon International Women's Marathon in Atlanta and other key races, that that was really not a problem with us. It actually got us out of a problem, a political problem within our own track club.

Speaker 6: 58:00

Interesting John I got to mention. He mentioned the women's marathon, avon, and Catherine Switzer was a big part of that, and Jeff introduced me to Catherine and she's become a dear friend for life and her husband, roger Robinson. Well, catherine was a pioneer, just like Jeff was a pioneer. I suppose in some level John Hughes and I are de facto pioneers without covered wagons, covered wagons and um, but that was a signature moment in the sport for women, because Jeff was a huge proponent and his wife, but they were a huge proponent of they saw this whole group of people that were denied admission into our beautiful sport. And so, uh, catherine, I don't know how you informally or formally had a relationship in terms of putting that together, but the whole purpose was women entering into the world running.

Speaker 2: 59:11

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Speaker 4: 59:48

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Speaker 1: 1:00:26

Well, you, let me actually you, you, you guys are the easiest to interview because you're leading me down the road that I wanted to take, because Cree showed us that he was part of that ugly patriarchy in the middle of the 70s. But women running was, you know and you said that about Mary Decker it's like, oh my gosh, here's this woman, she's out competing with us, and that that was a surprise. Wouldn't be a surprise to people today, jeff, what was it? Was it Barb? Well, shout out to Barb Galloway, one of my favorite people as well, and I know everybody's. What was it? Did you just see that this was a group of people who were anxious to do this and there was no good reason at all that they shouldn't?

Speaker 5: 1:01:08

I had so many friends from my competitive years who were so frustrated with the AAU and other organizations for prohibiting women for running distances and it was clear to me from having run with them and workouts that they could really run the socks off a lot of men and even very competitive men.

Speaker 5: 1:01:36

They were fully capable of doing marathons and they were prohibited from doing this. And Mary was a good friend. She was on the US national team that I was on in 1973. And we were going all over the world together, were going all over the world together and she was very young, get married and I was, because I really wanted to have a family, and so you look at your prospective mates and I realized that I personally needed to have someone that ran, that this was just absolutely crucial for me and she has been amazing. I never expected her to have the insights and the ability to put things together and make things happen and running and life that she has. I'm very fortunate and so, yes, she is really the primary one person that sort of got me focused on. We need to have an international women's marathon in Atlanta and we talked Avon products into doing that and we directed that race.

Speaker 1: 1:03:20

That's. That's remarkable. And again jumping back to it, when you were starting to put races on in Denver, was there? What was the participation? Welcome to the English language, John. For for women out there Now, skiing was was a sport where, I mean, a lot of women skied, so a lot of people were very, very active out there. But did you find there that it took a while to build up the women, to keep, to allow women to know that this was something that was acceptable?

Speaker 6: 1:03:50

Well, and again I'm going to go back to another vignette. Jeff came to my house 79 or maybe it was just 79. And he brought with him again here comes that word galleys of his, of Galloway's book on running, or whatever it was. What was the first name of the book? Is that that was it, galloway's book on running? And it had galley spread around on my dining room table that he was editing and it was quite clear If you go back and look at that book and it's probably been updated many times but women were a part of it and it was an equitable statement and and so I quickly understood that I needed to find, I needed to do whatever was necessary to get women completely involved in our running events, made it inclusive. I had lots of women speakers come to my little running store and the percentage grew very, very rapidly.

Speaker 6: 1:05:04

Perhaps the turning point was 84 in the Olympics, but even before that. So there were three things that you needed to get to improve the volume of people participating. You had to put on a back shelf part of the thought that everything had to be competitive. Everything had to be competitive, what it had to be, and I don't like the word inclusive. I don't, because I think we were already running was way ahead of the power about the curve on that. But what we wanted, we wanted women to be completely engaged on on an equal platform. And back in those days they would do. Even the running groups would say you have to have proportionality. If you only have 20% women, 80% men, then 80% of the awards would go to the men and 20% to the women. It was a dysfunctional thing. Well, we all said no, it's going to be equitable. So that was one thing the women.

Speaker 6: 1:06:22

The second thing was we put very restricted timeframes on these running events because, well, number one, municipalities required us to do it. But number two, um, it was this stupid thought that if you didn't run fast, then you weren't worthy. You know, people said I'm just a jogger. That was a word, that was an infamous word. Right, you weren't a runner. You know if and um that you, if you walked, you failed, and um, and so we needed to include walkers, somehow, we had to include the women, and uh and um. And the third thing was we, it, it's, it's unfair to say you're slow, then you can't go.

Speaker 6: 1:07:15

And those three legs of the stool allowed the sport to expand in a very fast way in the 80s and that, quite frankly, as a business reason, was excellent too, because the more people I had, the the more. The more people come in the store, the more people buy things, the more entries, the better the event would be and reinvest in it and all those things worked. And, and again, that was Jeff people. They give credit to some other people and they deserve credit, but it was Jeff's philosophy that John Hughes adopted, that I adopted, that Don Cardong adopted at his running store up in Spokane I think I don't know if Marty LaCoury I mean you know better than I, jeff did he have that sort of thing with Athletic Attic at the time?

Speaker 5: 1:08:19

or it was more of a competitive thing with them and they were not a special running specialty, they were all sports shoes.

Speaker 1: 1:08:27

So it was a different concept. Yeah, ok, so this is. There's so many questions and we're going to do this again at some point where we can talk about a little bit more. Because you mentioned, you mentioned the 84 Olympics and I have vivid memories because I was at summer school at the University of Virginia and I got chicken pox and had to go back to my house and basically watched every single event in the 1984.

Speaker 1: 1:08:52

I am an expert on the equestrian events in the 1984 Olympics from all those years ago because of that, but it was an Olympics in 76 was also in the time zone, the US time zone, and that was helpful. Do you see bumps? Did you see bumps throughout the years in Olympic years where people got more interested, because every four years I become an expert on gymnastics and diving and all of those things? Did you see that from those different Olympics and I'll jump back to you, jeff, on this one that in those years you would say, ok, it's an Olympic year. We know we're going to have an influx of new folks.

Speaker 5: 1:09:33

Absolutely. Oh yes, they were swept up by the tide the rising tide and they would come into the store and sales were bigger during Olympic years.

Speaker 1: 1:09:46

I learned to skate after the 1980 Olympic hockey team in Lake Placid. I'd never been on skates before that. I made my parents buy me hockey skates at that point. So I see all of that. And it made my parents buy me hockey skates at that point. So I see I see all of that.

Speaker 1: 1:09:58

All right, well, let's jump forward a little, because you were talking through the eighties and there's this growth of running and we hadn't we didn't say the word jogging until 49 minutes into the interview, which would have been unheard of in the 1970s because it was a jogging craze. You never said you know running. But I want to. I want to jump into in the last few minutes that we have to talk about Disney and and how that came about, because you're both experts in this, and so, jeff, I'm going to start with you with the races at Disney. Now in in retrospect, we could look at it and go, ok, well, this makes sense because they have control over their entire property and this is going to be easier than you know. You know my obsession with the logistics of the New York marathon and how anybody could do that. But we talk about that, the termination of that, jeff, and when that started and, from everything that I've heard, there wasn't a lot of optimism that this was going to become a big thing.

Speaker 5: 1:10:56

It's very true, and John Hughes, of course, is the main soul who developed the interest in doing a marathon, which is really what started the whole thing. The first few years there was only one event and it was the marathon, and it was done in January and that was it, and there was a lot of naysayers who didn't see the money rolling in from this event and there was a movement afoot to cancel it and just not hold it anymore. There were a number of people like myself who were coming in each year from the beginning that kept the spirit alive. You've got to hang on to this. Look at these races that started out small and grew and grew, and you need to add other races. Look at the other races that are springing up, the other distances, the half marathon and so forth. And it was when they tried a half marathon just to see what happened that things really started taking off and the one group to really build on what Cree was saying it was the women that really caused this thing to take off like a rocket.

Speaker 6: 1:12:31

Yeah, and I will tell you, I was intimate to the frustration early on. Before 1994, john Hughes and I John had become a great friend, as Jeff was. I mean, we were all just sort of brethren in the spirit. John was younger than what? 10 years younger than us, I guess, or maybe more, but he and I had gotten involved with, at the time, the Athletics Congress and then it became USA Track and Field, which it is today.

Speaker 6: 1:13:09

But back then he and I had gotten involved with a long distance running division of the country and he and I decided that wouldn't it be great to do an international half marathon championship, the world half marathon championships, at Disney that was. And we had written this great paper and John was the and and they just wouldn't do it. And we saw the logic of it and the concept and and so on. But John kept going back to them and he came up with the idea of the marathon. So when he said they're going to do it and this was in 93 that he told me said we got it, we're going to do it. And this was in 93 that he told me he said we got it, we're going to do it.

Speaker 6: 1:14:03

And I said well then I got to, because they don't think it's going to work, and I said well damn, I always wanted to go to Disney. I mean, I hadn't been to Disney in 20 years, you know, and I wanted to go to Disney. And so when it did become successful, as Jeff said, and it had an elite component to it too, right, always thought it funny. The guy that won it the first year, I think, was named sweatsop, from russia, uh, and we always thought that was funny because you know, hey, there's sweats off, take your sweats off, sweats off, you know and all that, but anyway so, but I love that it was international from the beginning, though I mean, I do love that aspect of it too.

Speaker 6: 1:14:53

Well, and so then, the second year, in 1995, was my first year, and that gave me a run of in December of this past year, as John knows and Jeff knows, I mean, I asked Disney. I said I'm going to step down. 30 seems like a good number to me, you know, and let these young people come forward. You know and let these young people come forward. You know, the young John Pelkies.

Speaker 1: 1:15:17

Thank you so much for that a week before my 60th birthday, which is affecting me more than it should. Get over it. No, I would have been the wrong company.

Speaker 6: 1:15:28

But that's, that's the truth of it. And and and Jeff became iconic. That's the truth of it. And Jeff became iconic and I don't think he ever imagined that he would become that much of a focal point. It was simply he was going to provide the training programs so that anybody and his run-walk program had taken off internationally, and that told particularly women at the time. Anybody can do a marathon, anybody. And if you just follow Jeff's program, and it worked, and it literally worked, and it was the most amazing transformation. And that's where the time limits for other marathons around the world changed. They broadened them, realizing this will be more an opportunity to include people rather than exclude people. And look what it did.

Speaker 1: 1:16:34

Yeah, to include people rather than exclude people. And look what it did. Yeah, no, I think I don't think it's overstating it to say that the growth of the marathons at Disney helped marathons, half marathons, five case, 10 case throughout the country. Because often, if you follow on social media as I do, there's people asking hey, you know, I'm going to be in Iowa in April for business for a couple of weeks. Is there anything going on? And if you know, something that would have been unheard of 30 years ago, people were not asking about that sort of thing. Jeff, when you look back at Disney and then we'll move on to what, what you guys see, or would blue sky in the future? When did when did it click with you? When you were like, when we knew this was a good idea, we never really realized what it could become. They could schedule five more races a year and they would probably sell them out at this point.

Speaker 5: 1:17:19

It was when the lines started growing at my booth at the expo, when people would wait 20 or 30 minutes to come up and tell me how training for these races changed their lives in so many ways and I had had this isolated, of course, throughout my whole lifetime in teaching people, but the volume was incredible. And then to see this continue and grow and bring in people that clearly would never do any exercise if it wasn't Disney promoting this and the fact that my program was something that they could do and really get all the benefits from it.

Speaker 1: 1:18:09

Yeah, now, and we look at it and we think about it and Cree, I'm going to ask you the next question. But I would just say you look at, it was women at one point, and then there was a period of time where people couldn't imagine people with physical disabilities running races and you know, push carts and it all kinds of stuff. Yeah, it has. It is as inclusive a community and I always say this, it's the most individual of sports. You know, you don't, you don't even have to meet up with somebody to buy a hockey stick or anything. You know, you put a pair of shoes on and you can go out and run.

Speaker 1: 1:18:42

But it is as inclusive and what I found supportive of community as you will find anywhere, and that's really remarkable to an old cynic like me. All right, craig, before we get out of here, and thank you so much, it's always a joy to talk to both of you, as you know. But Blue Sky moving forward, where we're seeing things now, and, as I mentioned, you know, 5k, corporate 5Ks and everything what would you like to see the running community move forward with?

Speaker 6: 1:19:12

Well, for me, having gone through the genesis of the Denver Colfax Marathon weekend, which has reached almost 25,000 legitimate entrants, which is scary because I didn't think it was going to work the first year, 20 years ago, when we were thinking about it I think, as long as we are principled enough to make fitness a central feature, that it is important, as my mantra has always been put your feet on the floor and get out the door. That has been my mantra. I don't care what you do or how long you take to do it, but put your feet on the floor and get out the door. That has been my mantra. I don't care what you do or how long you take to do it, but put your feet on the floor and get out the door. So, as long as we and we went through the carnival stage of these events, with the bubble runs and the paint runs and the whatever you want to call them, which I remember, everybody said, oh, we got to do those. And I said that is a fad, they're going to go away, they're stupid, it has nothing to do with fitness and as long as we keep our eye on the target that our goal is to get more and more people fit to have. You know, like Jeff's book, run Till You're 100 or whatever it is. You know, that's what we, that's where the blue sky is, as long as we hold true to that and don't get nuanced away on silly divergences.

Speaker 6: 1:20:53

I love the fact that trail running is growing. I love that because I love running on trails. I'm not so good at it anymore, but I love it. I love this get outdoors and a community of people that have a common goal. I am going to. You know, john Bingham the penguin. I am going to. You know, john Bingham the penguin used to say you know, success was getting to the start line, but Jeff's was not only that, but to get to the finish line. It is that you have achieved something so wonderful and Jeff can tell the numbers and maybe should right now, about how many people in the world have run a marathon and you're a part of a special, special group.

Speaker 1: 1:21:38

Yeah, I'll give you the last word on that, jeff, that that that is true, that the uh, you know again and we do tell people listen uh, signing up is is important. You decided you wanted to do this. Showing up on the day of the race is because we know there's a certain percentage of people who stick their finger out the window and go. It's about three degrees cooler than I wanted to run. I'm not going to show up, so that's something. But then, stepping up to the point where look, it's not always your day, you can't always finish, Things can happen but that finishing the race is the goal that you should set for yourself.

Speaker 5: 1:22:12

I believe that, in that regard, the whole thing of finishing, how can we get more people out there and get this feeling of satisfaction, transformative satisfaction that they get? It's going to happen at the grassroots level, because it already is and it's expanding rapidly. What's going to really transform it to more people is the corporations and the businesses realizing that it's to their benefit to get people out there moving. All the evidence is there. All of the mental evidence is there. So let's all work together and make it happen.

Speaker 1: 1:22:57

Yeah, and I tell you those corporate 5Ks, they used to be just medical companies, but now it's lawyers, accountants, it's everybody you know joining in. Well, and two gentlemen who were at the sharp end, as I like to say, of the running community Cree Kelly, jeff Galloway. Always a pleasure to talk to you guys, really a pleasure to talk to you at a normal time of day, as opposed to four 30 in the morning when I normally get to see you. Thanks so much for spending some time with us and I'm sure we'll talk to you down the line. Thanks, gents.

Speaker 6: 1:23:26

Thank you, john, great job, all right athletes, here's the drill time to shape up your diet.

Speaker 2: 1:23:33

Marisa, give them the goods All right and healthier you. I just want to dive in quickly because I know this has been such an in-depth episode about so many things. We're talking about packing in protein. This was the day two challenge of our summer shake-up challenge, which, by the way, you can still join. Go to gallowaycoursecom, find the seminar series to GallowayCoursecom, find the seminar series and type in the code summer. It'll just be $50. You'll be a little late, but you'll still get all the challenge goodies. You'll be able to join two chats with me and you'll get a five-day meal plan.

Speaker 2: 1:24:02

But how can we get in protein? I'm going to rattle off 10 ways that you can get in about 20 grams of protein and they're all relatively easy to do and you might have most of them in your house. Greek yogurt one cup 20 grams. Chicken breast just 2.5 ounces a little more than 20 grams Eggs you got to get three eggs to get 18. So that's a lot in a day. So maybe think about adding in something else with your eggs. Cottage cheese one cup 20 to 25 grams of protein Tofu put it in a pan, make it like a little nugget, press all the liquid out. Three quarter cup 20 grams of protein. Lentils great for your digestion. One cup is going to give you 18 grams of protein.

Speaker 2: 1:24:40

Protein shake y'all know I love my premier protein. That's 30 grams of protein. Can of tuna I had a can of tuna sitting in my boss's pickup truck at Ironman Happy Valley because I couldn't get any other food. And I did get 20 grams of protein.

Speaker 2: 1:24:54

Almonds we talked with Claire this morning about almonds, that they're good for calcium. Three ounces of almonds is going to give you 20 grams of protein, so stock up on those. And edamame 17 grams of protein. So if you get a little more than the cup you'll be closer to 20. And there was actually just a research study that came out yesterday that talked about the benefits of soy protein and kids paying better attention in class. So I have to dig into that more. But dig into your edamame, your soy milk, your tofu, all good things. And if you wanted to dig into your nutrition, check out Healthier you. The 12-week intensive course will help you totally rethink how you look at food and your nutrition plan. You can also join our seminar series, as I mentioned. Go to GallowayCoursecom and use the code podcast for the full healthier you to save, or the code summer for the seminar series.

Speaker 6: 1:25:42

Athletes, listen up. It's mail call time. Announcer free present.

Speaker 3: 1:25:48

Thanks, Sarge. She does a great job, doesn't she?

Speaker 2: 1:25:51

Love that Sarge.

Speaker 3: 1:25:52

She's always on call too.

Speaker 2: 1:25:54

Always right there.

Speaker 3: 1:25:55

Amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:25:55

You're going to read, just like John does our listener email without having ever read it before this came to us from Gmail. Our 321GO podcast at gmailcom from Bev.

Speaker 3: 1:26:08

So Bev writes hi guys With three exclamation points. Thanks, bev. I listened with lots of interest to the latest podcast, since here in Georgia we are dealing with above average heat and humidity. Hubby and I are training for the Halloween half in September and don't want to miss any miles, but the heat is killing us. Your advice has made so much sense and really given us some great tips for going forward. Made so much sense and really given us some great tips for going forward. It's laps at the park with a cooler in the car to get every mile and a half and slower pace for the win. We'll be getting our second Coast to Coast in November, so looking forward to cooler training for that part.

Speaker 2: 1:26:48

Great job. Thanks for all the tips. I was going to help you. Okay, you can keep going.

Speaker 3: 1:26:51

And look forward to seeing you guys. Thanks.

Speaker 2: 1:26:56

Great reading, good job.

Speaker 3: 1:26:57

Oh yes.

Speaker 2: 1:26:57

Yes, but thank you to Bev. We were glad that it was helpful and that was why I put this in here, because if you guys have questions that we can help you. Like that's what we want to do. We want to help you get running. We want to keep moving.

Speaker 2: 1:27:06

I've heard from people recently that some people kind of are feeling a little bit of burnout, like especially who have done the perfect season. It's what comes next. Don't put pressure on yourself. Don't have to be perfect season version of yourself. You don't have to be amazing costume version of yourself. There was a reason why you started running. Go back to that reason and yes, you made fun of me for saying go back to the why, or that you can do this At the end of the day. I think for most of us you always feel better after a run, minus that initial exhaustion, but you feel better about doing it. You feel good about yourself. So if you're feeling any kind of burnout, just go back. Take away the pressure of races, of costumes, of anybody else's expectations, and just enjoy being out there on the run. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you to Weston, our producer and 20% co-host for the day. See you real soon.

Speaker 4: 1:27:53

Bye-bye. Three, two, one go.