In Conversation with Lead Editors Megan Gibson and Annika Dahlman

Ever wondered what it's like to work for an indie publishing house? We speak with interns Megan Gibson and Annika Dahlman about their many experiences working at Ringwood, as well as their current responsibilities as lead editors for two upcoming book releases, The World's End Murders: The Inside Story by Tom Wood and Song of the Stag by R. M. Brown. We discuss manuscript submissions, working with authors, publishing timelines, marketing, and so much more!

Tom Wood, author of Ruxton: The First Modern Murder, has written yet another insightful piece of true crime history. The World’s End Murders: The Inside Story is the account of the cold case of the murders of Helen Scott and Christine Eadie in Edinburgh of 1977 and the efforts of the law enforcement officers in bringing the perpetrator to justice. It will be launched on Sunday, June 23rd at Hillhead Library in Glasgow, so keep an eye out for updates about the event and details on pre-ordering.

Song of the Stag is R.M. Brown’s debut novel born of one simple question: what if there was a fantasy book about Scottish Independence? It will be launched on Thursday, June 27th at 7pm at The Tinsmith in Dundee, and you can pre-order it here through the Ringwood website. 

Transcript

Júlia: Welcome to the Ringwood Publishing Podcast. I'm your host, Julia. 

Annemarie: And I'm your host, Annemarie. And each week, we are joined by a series of authors, colleagues, and guests to talk about all things books and publishing.

Júlia: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Season 3, Episode 3 of the Ringwood Publishing Podcast. My name is Julia Pujals Antolin, and I'm one of the cohosts for this season, along with fellow intern, Annemarie Whitehurst. 

Annemarie: Hello.

Júlia: For our third episode of the season, we've invited interns Megan Gibson and Annika Dahlman to join us in a discussion of Ringwood's editing process.

Both Megan and Annika are current lead editors for two upcoming releases, The World’s End Murders by Tom Wood and Song of the Stag by R. M. Brown. Annemarie, could tell us a little bit more about the books?

Annemarie: Sure. The World's End Murders is the true crime story of the murders of Helen Scott and Christine Eadie in Edinburgh of 1977, the decades-long cold case that followed their tragic deaths, the progress of DNA profiling and forensic science from that time until today, and the law enforcement officers whose efforts led to bringing the perpetrator to justice. It will be launched on Sunday, June 23rd, so keep an eye out for updates about the event and details on pre-ordering.

Song of the Stag is R. M. Brown's debut novel, born of one simple question: What if there was a fantasy book about Scottish independence? An ardent love letter to Scottish folklore and history, it follows Cait, A young woman from Storran's borders, an idyllic and traditional existence, completely opposed to separatism. But when her life is uprooted and she finds herself in Storran's capital, she quickly realizes that her charming countryside life is not the reality for everyone. Drawn to the enigmatic separatist firebrand, the Fox of Thorterknock, and her tales of a secret heir to Storran's long empty throne, Cait finds herself swept into the battle for Storran's liberation from the Five Realms. Torn between the world she thought she knew and the world she must now face, Cait will learn what it truly means to be a patriot. Song of the Stag will be launched on Thursday, June 27th at 7pm at the Tinsmith in Dundee, and you can pre-order it now on the Ringwood website. 

Júlia: Okay, perfect. So, let's get into today's discussion.

Annemarie: Megan and Annika, thank you both for being on the podcast with us today. 

Megan: Thank you for having us. 

Annemarie: First, I'd like you both to give a little self-introduction. Could you tell us how long you've been working for Ringwood, the kinds of work you've done for Ringwood, and what parts of that work that you've enjoyed the most?

Annika: Do you want to go Megan? 

Megan: Uh, yeah, sure. So, hi, I'm Megan. I've been a member of Ringwood since November 2022, so that's about a year and a half as of now. My main role is the submissions manager and a senior intern. I've done a wee bit of everything. In Ringwood, I'm on the newsletter team. I run the submissions. I'm a senior intern, so I give advice to younger interns, less experienced interns, I should say. And I've also been a project manager and a lead editor for the fiction book The Hotel Hokusai by T. Y. Garner. And currently, I am the lead editor for Tom Wood's new book, The World's End Murders. 

Annika: Yeah, my name's Anika. I have been with Ringwood since August of last year. So, almost nine months, I think. I've also done like a bit of everything, not quite as much as Megan, but I started out doing like small tasks or smaller tasks. I should say, like, I did some small editorial reports. I've been on like a couple of marketing teams.

Then in November, I both became lead editor for Song of the Stag and I also became submissions secretary. So, Megan and I have been working together for a few months on that, and basically, I'm the one who sends Megan all the annoying emails, being like, ‘I think this is okay, what do you think?’ Although I have stepped down from that role just a couple of days ago, so sadly not doing that anymore, but that has been very fun.

Um, but those have been my two main tasks, being Submissions Secretary and being Lead Editor for Song of the Stag. I also worked on the short story competition last year and was one of the judges, uh, which was very fun. I felt very important, which was great. 

Megan: I think another thing that's important to mention is that Annika and myself are also members of the Editorial Committee. That's quite relevant to this discussion today because Annika and I are members of the committee who decide which books Ringwood will decide to publish. 

Annemarie: Yeah, that’s super important. How many people are on the editorial committee? 

Megan: There are usually six people on the editorial committee. Right now we have seven, which is very exciting because we have a couple of new interns coming in, so it's always changing and it's always good to get new voices.

Annemarie: Yeah, that's great. What parts of being an intern for Ringwood have been the most fun, would you say? 

Megan: I would say that personally for me, I have really enjoyed my work on the submissions. So, every week I will read about two to four submissions, depends how busy it is. But I have a lot of fun getting to read all of these different stories, all of these different styles. It's just introduced me to such a wider plethora of writing that I've never really seen before. So, I have a lot of fun with that. 

I also really enjoy doing the marketing, which is something I had no experience in before coming to Ringwood. I really enjoyed making graphics on Canva and actually being at the events. So I have chaired two events. No, I've chaired more than two, actually. I have chaired many events at my time in Ringwood and I've enjoyed all of them. You get to speak to the audience, you get to speak with the authors, sell some books. It's just a really nice social environment. So I think marketing and working on submissions have been my favorite things.

Annika: I would agree that working on submissions has been one of the sort of best things about Ringwood. Like Megan just said, it just, you get to read so many different things and it's really exciting. You never know what's going to be in the email when you open it. And I've also really enjoyed being editor for Song of the Stag.

I think most of my time at Ringwood, like, proportions-wise has been spent working on that. And I think that also reflects the fact that I enjoy it the most. Um, it's the thing that I'm sort of, I have a hard time putting down because I like working on it. I've always liked editing. Um, I just think it's a really fun thing to do.

Uh, getting to sort of look at a text and try to figure it out and try to find ways to. To make it better. So that has been really fun. And one of the great things about Ringwood is also just the fact that you do so many things. You know, you're not just in editing or you're not just in marketing or whatever you're doing. Like, lots of things at the same time, and you're meeting lots of different people and working with different people. And that is also really great. 

Júlia: It's interesting because, like, it sounds like you both got into Ringwood because you were interested more in the editorial side of book publishing. As you've mentioned, Megan, you did a bit of marketing in Ringwood, but that's not, like, the thing that you interned, uh, here for.

You both ended up becoming, like, lead editors, which is, like, an insane amount of responsibility. So, could you tell us a little bit more about this role in specific? What it entails and how you guys have found it? 

Megan: Yeah, so being the lead editor, you are basically the project manager for the editing side of the project.

So you are leading your team, you are the main point of contact for the author, and after every stage, it's your job to collate all of the work everyone has done and put it into one cohesive document for the author. So, working on The World's End Murders, I was in a team with Annemarie and Natasha. So we all wrote separate reports and then I would collate it into one document and present it to Tom.

It's also the role of the lead editor to kind of be a source of leadership in terms of if anyone has any questions, you have to be the one that knows what the answer is. And it's quite a lot of responsibility because you get to be the one who decides. What changes are going to go into the final report and what's going to be presented to the author?

Júlia: No, yeah, that makes sense because I've also been like an assistant editor for a project, and I feel like I've relied a lot on my lead Editor to sort of tell me not exactly what is right and what is wrong. But sort of like give the guidelines to be able to do it on my own which is very important in this kind of job. 

Annemarie: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, both like guidance and feedback as well. Megan's so good with giving me feedback on where I, what I did well and, uh, what I'm missing and stuff like that. So, yeah, really, really appreciative of the lead editors. Annika, did you have any other thoughts on the responsibilities of being a lead editor? 

Annika: I was just going to add that, like, yeah, everything Megan said is correct and being lead editors is a lot of fun, but a lot of responsibility because you're the one that has to take the lead, essentially, and you have to be the one to make the decisions at the end of it all.

And that can be a bit daunting. But I think what's also worth saying is that it's really interesting because even if you are the lead editor, technically, your assistant editors are doing the exact same work that you are except for the final report. But, like, that's, like, the final thing. It's just you're doing it all separately.

And then you get to be the one who decides what goes in the final report. But it is definitely an interesting sort of process because you have like three separate people doing the exact same thing simultaneously, and then you sort of reconvene at the end of it to see what you've gathered. And that's really fun.

Megan: I think the other thing to mention is the lead editor is also responsible for collating all of the proofreading, which is an absolutely enormous task. When we do proofreading, the general rule is that we will have, at the very least, five interns look at the first half of the book and five will look at the second half of the book.

They'll go through the book, line by line, and they'll make comments, um, and fix any corrections. So, for example, you'll have page five, line two, sentence starting with ‘The dog went’. Maybe we could add a comma after ‘The dog’? And it's meticulous, meticulous work. And at the end of the day, it's the lead editor's job to take all ten of these, work through them, decide which is the correct correction to make.

Is the comma after ‘The dog’? Is the comma somewhere else? And then you're the one that has to make these changes. So, it is quite a lot of pressure, but it's also very fun and you get a huge sense of achievement once you've finished that big of a project. 

Annika: Yeah, I just did that last week.

Megan: Questioning your knowledge.

Annika: Yeah, I agree with that. It's such a strange task because on one hand, it's quite satisfying because you get to go through each and everything and you get to take it all off and you're like, okay, wow, that's like, half the book done, you know, it's proofread. But at the same time, it's so, like, it makes you go a little insane at times, like, you're, you find yourself Googling, like: ‘Where do you put a full stop sentence in a piece of grammar?’ Like, ‘What's the difference between a hyphen and an em dash and a long em dash?’ and a just like all the different hyphens that exist? And it's just, yeah, you go a bit crazy and you stare at a sentence so long that it just stops making sense entirely.

But, but it is also satisfying to have it all like finished and polished and everything. 

Annemarie: If you had to give a percentage of how much the assistant interns’ edits make it into the final proofread, how, how much, yeah, I'm curious how much, how accurate are we doing? How accurate are we? 

Megan Gibson: Oh god, it really depends on the book, to be quite honest.

In the project that I was editing beforehand, The Hotel Hokusai, a big discussion on that was comma placement. A lot of interns were giving different commas in the same sentence. You know, there were some interns where I would choose their commas because after a certain amount of time, you want to make sure that you're having a consistent style.

So while you do have to take everyone's comments in mind, you do still have to decide what the consistent style is going to be. So, you start to get a feel for where commas should be in this specific style for more emphasis and for more effect. That's a, that's a hard question to answer. 

Annika: Like you just said, Megan, it's, it's, it comes down to consistency as well.

So, like, for instance, I think I had one proofreader's report that was very sort of heavy on the commas and a lot of them, I, I could see, like, they made sense to me and I, I didn't think they were necessarily incorrect, but because none of the other reports were nearly as, like, meticulous with the commas, and because the author wasn't as, sort of, using commas as much, I decided to not go with that, just because it would have required me to look at the, basically look at the second half of the book myself, and figure out where all the commas would have been according to that person.

So, it, yeah, it really depends. On the book and on the proofreading team overall, and I think also how well written the text is to begin with. With Song of the Stag, I thought it was quite well written. So, with the corrections, um, provided by the proofreaders, it was a lot of just like, plain, obvious things like, oh, this should be capitalized or a space between the word and the full stop. Like things like that, that, you know, yes, they just, that's just for me to, to listen to and to, and to correct, whereas maybe with books that need a bit more editing and a bit more proofreading, maybe. There's more gray areas, there's more discussion to be had. Yeah, I think it depends a lot. 

Júlia: Yeah, I guess, like, the writing style also matters, because for the book that I'm the assistant editor for, I feel like, you have to not only think about what's grammatically correct, but you also have to think about the author and how they are trying to make the character sound, especially when it's written in the first person.

I guess if you know the author more, you're able to pick out on those things more, um, because as a lead editor, You are in constant contact with the author and just, I guess, like, as much as, like, you're trying to guide your assistant editors, you're also trying to, like, reassure the author. Um, so how, how has that relationship with the author been for you guys?

Annika: Yeah, I, I would say that my relationship with, with the author is pretty, really great. I think she's a wonderful person to work with. She's very positive. She's very open to everything. I have to say, which stresses me out because I don't trust I always have great things to say. So that's very nice of her to be so nice to really appreciate it.

But, yeah, she's been just wonderful. I was really nervous about that, actually, prior to starting my work as lead editor that, like, I would sort of get into arguments with the author. I was really stressed about that because, obviously, when you're an author and you've written something, you've spent years writing it, it can be a bit hard to then have to sit and listen to some random 22-year-old tell you, ‘Oh, you need to fix this and that.’

And fair enough. But, you know, it's, it's our job. So, um, I was worried that there was going to be some issues with that. And I've not had like a single issue with Rebecca. Like the way she responds to feedback has been such a blessing. I remember when she sent me her, um, response to our like big picture edits, which are like the feedback on content, um, she put it all in this Excel spreadsheet with like, here's what we've said, here's the exact page, here's what it used to be, and here's what it now is. And I was like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen. I like this. It has revolutionized everything and I think every author should work in this way. Definitely much appreciated by, by the editing team. So yeah, I think our relationship has been very good. I hope she feels the same way.

Um, but that is my, my take on it. 

Megan Gibson: Yeah, my relationship with Tom Wood, I was very excited to be working with him because he's an author we've worked with for a long time. He's one of our best-selling authors. He wrote Ruxton: The First Modern Murder. I've also been involved in a couple of events with him.

So, I did know Tom before we started working together and it has been an absolute treat to get to work with someone like Tom Wood. We sat down after the committee decided to progress with the book, we sat down in Glasgow with Annemarie and Natasha, and we had this big chat about what his intentions were, and how the project was going to go, and what things were going to look like, and then we just sat down and had lunch, and it was just, it was lovely because you got to know, yeah, you got to know your team and the author both as a person and as a professional.

So, you got to understand his motivations and his ethos towards his work and towards this book. And I feel like we came out of that first meeting, everyone just understanding exactly what our goal was and what the mood was working on this book. Because the difference with this book was that it's a non-fiction and on top of being a non-fiction, it's an incredibly heavy topic.

The story focuses on the murders of two young women, Helen Scott and Christine Eadie in Edinburgh in 1977, but it also focuses on the general topics of DNA, murder investigations, psychology. It's just an incredibly heavy subject matter and it needs to be dealt with extremely delicately. So, it was incredibly important to make sure that we were doing Tom justice in making sure that his voice came across exactly as he wanted it to come across.

It's actually, it was an interesting process. editing it. It was completely different from Annika's wonderful spreadsheets. When we submitted the report to Tom, Tom and I sat down and we had two meetings over Zoom, which lasted about three hours each. And we actually went through the report together, and in real time, we discussed each point.

I made the changes, he looked at them, he ticked them, and we moved on to the next point. And that's not something I've ever done before, and it was such a fantastic experience because you really got to discuss with the author in real time, ‘Why do you think this point doesn't work?’ And don't get me wrong, by the end of it, it fried your brain.

The first time we got to about half past eight at night and then we both said, ‘I think we need to leave this for tonight and come back tomorrow because all the words are starting to just look the same to me.’ And then we came back and we finished it off and we both just had this lovely sense of achievement that we just worked through this big project together.

So, working with Tom was always great, an absolute treat and a pleasure and I hope he feels the same way as well. 

Annemarie: I can't emphasize enough how cool it is. When I, you know, had submitted my CV to potentially be a volunteer for Ringwood, I didn't anticipate having such close interactions with the authors, you know, but even as an assistant editor, I'm still, you know, included in all of the emails and all of the meetings that we have.

And yeah, I just think it's really incredible how the Ringwood structure really encourages close relationships between the authors and everybody on their team, whether you're doing like, just making some social media marketing posts to whether you're the lead editor. 

Megan: Oh, absolutely. I mean, Annika said earlier as well, but everyone, even though you are the lead editor, the assistant editors are doing just as much work and it's just as important that everyone has a relationship with the author and understands the goal that we all want and the image in their mind. 

Annika: Yeah, I think that's has a lot to do with the fact that Ringwood is quite small. Uh, you know, we're a small company and that has its pros and its cons, but one of the pros is definitely the way you get to know everyone quite well.

Um, and the sort of, yeah, the relationship that you can cultivate with. The author is, is something quite special. I think obviously this is the only publishing company I've worked at, but I'm going to assume that it's not the same everywhere else. So, I'm really grateful to have had this experience. Um, and I'm going to miss sort of the personal feeling of things.

Definitely. 

Annemarie: Absolutely. Could you guys speak to a little bit about as lead editors, how the timeline works from getting, receiving the manuscript to the launch, how you decide on, you know, how much time you give between developmental editing, you know, line editing and proofreading, stuff like that?

Megan: Yeah, so this project was completely different from the other projects that I took on last year.

The difference is that this book has already been published before. What Tom wanted to do was republish it, make some edits, and just make it a version that's as up to date as possible because, as it’s non-fiction, facts are always changing and you can always have more reflection. So, it's been an incredibly quick process.

All in all, it will have taken about four months from the ‘yes’ decision to the launch date. I think in terms of deciding how much time is needed for everything, it really does depend on the book. Another one of Ringwood's books has taken a year and a half to get from initial ‘yes’ decision to publication.

It really just depends on how many changes are needed, the personal lives of the author, and it also has to do with current affairs. So, when we decided that we wanted to publish The World's End Murders again, the reason we decided that we wanted to do it quite quickly was it’s not just because it was a very small editing job because it's already very high quality. We also wanted to publish it because it's very relevant to a lot of discussions going on in terms of crime and safety with women. So, it really does depend on so many factors. And I think the most important thing is to make sure that you're not rushing any of this process. And that you're giving it the time and the dedication that it deserves.

Annemarie: Annika, did you have anything to add? 

Annika: I think the editing process with Song of the Stag has been quite straightforward. We originally received the, the manuscript, it was submitted to us in November 2022. And then about a year later, it was accepted by the editorial committee. And then since then, I think, yeah, about six months have passed.

Right. And we've gone through different stages. I think each stage has taken around a couple of months, I would say, because it's a month for the editing team to do their work and then a month for the author to respond. Then, you know, the big picture edits, the small picture edits, the proofreading has gone sort of in waves. Yeah, pretty straightforward. 

Júlia: And to basically wrap up the whole discussion and seeing as you, Annika, also said you're stepping off some of the responsibilities here at Ringwood, what sort of like skills and experiences from being a lead editor but also with everything else that you guys have experienced?

Annika: I think being editor definitely teaches you to strike a balance between being helpful and being annoying. Um, which also, it sounds vague, but, but basically what I mean is, you have to know how to, on one hand, be an editor, and, and do your job as an editor, and, and edit the book, but at the same time, not take over, and not step on the author's toes, and not change things too much, because it's not your book, at the end of the day, and that's a really difficult balance to strike, I think.

You have to constantly sort of sit back and think, ‘Okay, is this, is this the right amount of help that I am giving, or am I just like, changing things because it's my personal taste?’ And that can be a bit challenging, can be a bit exhausting at times. But it's, it's definitely an important skill to be able to have that sort of self-awareness and to be able to tell what you're thinking and why. Yeah, I'd say it's an important skill that I've picked up. 

Megan: I mean, Annika has just raised an absolutely fantastic point. Um, I'll add a couple wee boring skills onto the end of that. 

Júlia: They're all important. 

Megan: They are all important. This, the lead editor position, on top of everything Annika just said, it does also give you these project management skills. And for me, the most important was time management, particularly with this project, it's such a tight turnaround as opposed to my previous project, which is around the same as Song of the Stag. So, you had some downtime in between. Whereas with this project, I have had no downtime. It's been very much nonstop.

And on one hand, that is absolutely fantastic because you can stay in the mindset. On the other hand, it's very difficult because you have other responsibilities. So, I think it was very important for me to really strengthen my time management skills because I wanted to give it as much of my attention as I could, but I also wanted to make sure that I was delivering the highest quality of work that I could give.

And I had to learn when to prioritize certain tasks over other tasks. And also when to step back and say, I need a few hours to not do this right now. So I think for me, time management was the most important skill that I learned from this project in particular, and with Ringwood overall. Ringwood is a very busy company and we're a very small company. So, everyone has a lot of responsibility and time management is incredibly important. So I will be leaving Ringwood an expert in time management. 

Júlia: Yeah. I mean, it's great because, as you guys have said, like, there's a lot of, like, things that you can take from previous jobs and just, like, who you are as a person to apply to Ringwood, but there's also so much that you learn and develop while you're at Ringwood, so that's great for any future interns listening to this.

Megan: Absolutely. I can send a fantastic email now. 

Annemarie: This was a good discussion. Thank you both for taking the time out of your day to join us and talk to us about your experiences. It was really, really insightful. 

Megan: Thank you as well. 

Annemarie: This was such a great conversation and we hope it's given everyone a fun peek behind-the-scenes of what goes on at Ringwood.

If you're interested in hearing more about editing and our authors, check out the previous two episodes of Season 3 with Ringwood authors T. Y. Garner and L. A. Kristiansen. And if like me, you're more excited to get your hands on the books that have brought so much joy to Annika and Megan and all the other interns who've worked on them, be sure to pre-order a copy of Song of the Stag and keep an eye out for the pre-order announcement of The World's End Murders on our website and our social media.

Júlia: Thanks for listening.