In this episode, hosts Max and Chris sit down with Nate Heyboer, a seasoned entrepreneur and real estate developer, and the owner of DHE, a leading plumbing and mechanical contracting firm serving West Michigan since 2005.
Join us for an engaging conversation as Nate shares his insights into entrepreneurship, real estate development, and the construction industry. From the challenges he faced to the innovative projects that define his career, this episode offers valuable industry insights and plenty of laughs. Whether you're a professional, aspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about these fields, don't miss this episode of the Max and Chris Show!
In this episode, hosts Max and Chris sit down with Nate Heyboer, a seasoned entrepreneur and real estate developer, and the owner of DHE, a leading plumbing and mechanical contracting firm serving West Michigan since 2005.
Join us for an engaging conversation as Nate shares his insights into entrepreneurship, real estate development, and the construction industry. From the challenges he faced to the innovative projects that define his career, this episode offers valuable industry insights and plenty of laughs. Whether you're a professional, aspiring entrepreneur, or simply curious about these fields, don't miss this episode of the Max and Chris Show!
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Unknown
Welcome to the.
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Speaker 2
Max and Chris Show episode number. I think ten. Maybe we do what Asterix can be in this situation.
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Speaker 3
12 Yeah, if you consider the mark and Sarah one two.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 3
Yeah. Sorry. Anyways, introducing our good friend Nathan Bar, owner of DHP Plumbing and Mechanical, located in Jamestown, Michigan, Hudsonville, Michigan. And unfortunately in various than enough for me. We talked about it on the Chick-Fil-A podcast. We had a little bit of a delay in releasing new podcast because we spent two and a half hours with the yeah.
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Speaker 4
I get to an hour three.
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Speaker 3
And then we get done with the podcast and I look at it and I'm like, then it looks like it's full.
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Speaker 4
You are getting billed twice.
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Speaker 3
And I'm like, Well, let me let me download it and I'll get back to you guys. I'll let you know. And I got home, got the kids on or whatever, and I plug it in. It usually takes like, usually it takes like an hour probably to like download onto the Dropbox Dropbox file to send out. And it took me it took like 5 minutes and I'm like, my gosh, You're like, So how much of it required?
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Speaker 3
And I'm like, 16 minutes. So here we are. Take two.
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Speaker 4
I'm glad to be back.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, Well, we appreciate it.
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Speaker 2
We're going to have you back regardless, but came a little bit sooner.
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Speaker 4
Yeah. Skal real quick.
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Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. I do really actually appreciate the fact that you're taking hopefully we can, you know, hopefully we can get a little bit of time out of you again today, but.
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Speaker 4
There's no way to be as good as the first one. I was an amazing gust that was You were.
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Speaker 5
So you're the last.
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Speaker 3
Dude like the last I told Chris maybe I told you to like the last, like 25 minutes to you were just on fire and.
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Speaker 4
It's gone.
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Speaker 3
It's gone forever, ever. It can never be duplicated. So you were just Andre here.
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Speaker 4
And that's.
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Speaker 3
Now. But we do I Yeah. I feel awful just because it's like it's such a big it's a time commitment By the time you drive here set up, sit down record then. I mean, I.
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Speaker 4
Want to come hang out at the maxi office anyways. We're good. Yeah. I was due for.
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Speaker 3
A thank you for not punching me, but I was told that if this one didn't record, I think I probably will get punched.
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Speaker 4
It would be the Nate and Chris show from here.
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Speaker 5
Yeah, you're a step in.
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Speaker 3
I'm not a tech guy. I'm not a that guy. But yeah, I. We said a prayer before, so I think we're good.
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Speaker 4
Let's do it.
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Speaker 3
All right, let's roll. So kind of I mean, let's start literally like we did last time, all the way from the beginning, from the blind date 81. Yes. 1981, please.
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Speaker 4
1981. Nate Haber is born and James Ozzy on. But Jamestown, Michigan, a dairy farm outside.
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Speaker 5
Hudsonville.
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Speaker 4
On a farm for age all the normal farm duties. I did that until I was 14, when the bank took the farm had to do with, I mean, nothing completely out of control, out of everyone's control. Milk prices had fallen to the floor grain price to jump through the ceiling. It was a mass. It wasn't a outwork. This change how you're doing things, a simple math problem that just didn't work.
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Speaker 4
So at that point, our family had a pivot. My father became a plumber working for my grandfather. That's when his industry changed and that brought us into high school. So it was bittersweet to see it go. But at the end of the day, farming nowadays is for the bigger the bad. You needed all the grant games you need to know.
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Speaker 4
I mean, technology, there's no small plumbers or small farmers anymore.
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Speaker 3
And it was you're 14 years old and I mean, I'm assuming you don't. When I was 14, I have no idea if things are running well or not. But the farm or anything. I mean, did you have any idea that that they could not field? No, no, no. It was just so So for you as a 14 year old, it's almost like overnight.
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Speaker 4
You're pretty much. Yeah. By we're making changes and this is it. I was not involved in any of the business back then with you and then.
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Speaker 3
And you have three siblings.
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Speaker 4
The younger brother, Eric. Younger brother Josh, who are both in business with me and then my younger sister. My youngest sibling is my sister Laura.
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Speaker 3
How many acres are you guys on out in Jamestown?
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Speaker 4
I'm going to guess I'm going to be off, but it was quite a few from Fire and Road all the way to Riley, 40th to 24th. A good popularity of that. I want to say 700 acres, but it might be we're going back on was wow.
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Speaker 3
Wow. What is it today like that little section right there?
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Speaker 4
Is it a lot of it's still farmland. Our farm is still there. It's a semi repair shop and like diesel engine mechanic shop. Now, but most of it's still undeveloped. There's a couple new housing developments that are finally pushing that far south from the Jamestown industrial boom, if you want to call it that.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, that's why. And so they had to just be like a crazy experience to be like, this is life and then the next day is complete. I mean, was a definitely.
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Speaker 4
We didn't know any different.
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Speaker 3
It was just.
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Speaker 4
Change. You're struggling with a bunch of going to be different. Yeah. Stick together as a family. Just do it.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 3
And did your dad have any background in plumbing or he just.
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Speaker 4
You know, get us through? He was still milking cows after hours, so middle of the night. And then he would became a plumber under my grandfather's company. And h back then, I don't want to say a default, but it was probably one of the quicker avenues at that time to have income coming in to pay the bills.
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Speaker 3
And a complete sidebar, but I was looking at an old build out for an office building and there was a high bore plumbing.
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Speaker 4
Is that there no relation? There's some other high water, there's a hybrid landscaping, a hybrid board. I think there's even a hybrid heating and cooling, and none of them are relation to at least nothing close.
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Speaker 3
There's like some family split back in the day. They split you guys up and there were still hasn't that hasn't been Yeah.
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Speaker 4
My grandma had 12 siblings so you just had different So we're kind of known as like the Jamestown farming high and there is the Zealand farming high horse and then you've got, you know, into the city of the city full kind of horse people.
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Speaker 2
So when did your grandpa, Kansas City, how did he get into work?
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Speaker 4
I was my grandpa and grandpa Jack Howard of their family was in it for I don't even know how many companies there were. Franklin Howard, a company is his relation, uncle, I think. And there's Howard Huizenga. There was a bunch of them. So it was kind of it's been in my mom's side for generations.
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Speaker 3
That's awesome. And so your dad lose that. You're 14 years olds, though, if you're a freshman and going in high school. Right. And you're you went to Unity and you so you stayed at Unity through that whole process as well.
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Speaker 4
My parents is very important to them and very important man. So they they could punch screen whatever they to do to, you know, get us through.
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Speaker 3
And I mean, that had to be that's like I.
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Speaker 4
I can't imagine it.
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Speaker 3
It's not like private school so expensive anyways And it's like seen as almost like a I don't know what it's.
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Speaker 4
A luxury to a.
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Speaker 3
Luxury. Thank you. Yeah. And so to have that going on and then make sure that not just one, but I'm assuming all for you to stay in that program, that's pretty cool.
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Speaker 4
And that also has to do with church community and Jamestown community. The farmers, they all kind of stick together. No, this is kind of the history of that area.
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Speaker 3
Yeah, that's a that's special. I mean, to, like, make that decision of, like, this is so important to us that we're going to make sure that we're going to.
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Speaker 2
However, Yeah. No matter what we need to do, we are going to get this kids to the school or Christian education.
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Speaker 4
Yeah, sure. And growing up on the farm gives you a work ethic that you don't realize you're receiving until later on in life. Like when I was on the school bus for the first year, I thought other kids had their animals before school too, and that is definitely not the case.
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Speaker 2
I was going to say. So what did your typical day look like? Like wake up at one time and feed the animals.
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Speaker 4
At about two in the morning? I'd get up. I'm just kidding. I really had to go to.
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Speaker 5
In the morning. Usually short uphill both ways.
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Speaker 3
Yeah.
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Speaker 4
But you know, we had some cows and cattle at our like our barn behind our house in the main farms across the street. So they'll kind of chipped in. And like in the summer when other kids were kind of out like learning how to swim, riding bikes, we were picking up rocks and driving the tractor, which sounds fun.
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Speaker 4
But when you're driving a tractor at two miles an hour in the sun, it's not that good of that.
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Speaker 5
Yeah.
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Speaker 4
So to this day, I still can't swim. That's one of my things I'm working on. I took swimming lessons at Grand Valley right before COVID passed level one, and I was going to take level two and then all COVID then shut down. So I got to get back over there.
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Speaker 3
that. That's extra. It's extra funny that they can't swim because he lives on the lake.
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Speaker 4
Extra funny.
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Speaker 3
Actually. Yeah.
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Speaker 4
I love water. I love it's like an enemy, though. Like. Yeah, I got to keep my eye on it. I can see the water. I better not go in there, but I can. I know where it's at.
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Speaker 2
But you said you're like a rock. Like you jump in your tires also.
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Speaker 4
L.S. I know people be like, you can really flow. Yeah, let's give it a shot. Come over here. I'll help you float in your back. And they just give up like there's something broken.
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Speaker 3
Is that no body? Body fat, percent big arms.
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Speaker 4
That a lot of things. But it's not.
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Speaker 2
I also do remember this story, I think. Why were you in elementary school and selling that? Was it selling bubblegum? that story.
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Speaker 4
I will tell you. Outlet me one more swimming story to really bring this home and this is this embarrassing. But I'll tell you guys, because we're friends we're friends here Camp Roger at Camp Roger they have a washer system and so they get swim across the pond in back lake where we're going to call it. You were a blue washer, I believe.
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Speaker 4
And I mean, you can do whatever you want. Take a rowboat. Yes, you're free. You are A-OK. If you get home from docked a dock or a green anchor or green washer, which meant that you could need a life jacket on if you were going on a like a boat or a kayak or a canoe. But if you could not make them dock the dock, your red washer, that meant if you can see water, like if you're eating breakfast, but you can still see water, your life jackets on.
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Speaker 5
That was the only red.
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Speaker 4
This giant board of all the names and numbers of who they were just one big red washer sticking out. And that's all neat.
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Speaker 5
Hole where you get this?
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Speaker 4
Let me think I was scarred at the age of had to be like seven or eight.
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Speaker 3
You're like you're having a bowl of soup and they're like, they.
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Speaker 5
Make your little clothes little did little bounce off that tree the water on us. So let's.
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Speaker 4
Put on these you know, at least this one is.
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Speaker 3
Too big bowl soup. You could drown in.
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Speaker 4
Liability, I guess. Insurance. Yeah. Make their money.
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Speaker 3
Literally. No other kid, just neighbor.
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Speaker 4
There was only one red washer for that week and that's me. I still think I might be like a light pink washer, but I'm definitely on the green.
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Speaker 5
man.
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Speaker 4
So, Chris, back to your question about this part. One of my my first businesses was selling tear jerker. I think they're called crybabies back then.
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Speaker 2
Yeah.
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Speaker 4
The terrible tasting bubblegum with I don't know why anyone eats them, but they were popular. They just come out when I was in fifth grade.
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Speaker 3
That war ads or tears or crybabies. Yes.
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Speaker 4
You're younger than me, Max. We didn't have those back then that it was like the very first was crybaby original, very sour, extremely sour, terrible taste in Gumball. But I did have access to those from the dairy farm, so I would get on the bus and I paid a kid, usually bought him two caramel apple sticks or cow tails in exchange for buying me whatever my order was for the day from papers card store downtown Hudsonville.
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Speaker 4
So then the next morning in the bus, he would give me my supply and I would sell them at school. If I send $0.10 apiece, three or four quarter. And that went well because I only, only game in town.
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Speaker 5
Slang hustler, no school.
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Speaker 4
And then I'm not going to any last names but Kelly showed up. Kelly showed up and her mother took him to a new store called Sam's Club. Alma and Liam decided to buy a giant jug of crybabies and burst into my market. Good for her. Competition's not terrible. A terrible thing, but so I had to pivot. I'd run some specials and I.
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Speaker 5
Just.
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Speaker 4
You know, boxing out your territory and things like that. And eventually the principal pulled me in and said, you know, I have no businesses anymore. I think my parents were involved, but it wasn't like you're in trouble. But just like and we're going to put the kibosh to this.
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Speaker 3
And so didn't get into like knife fights or anything like that.
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Speaker 4
I run into my teacher, Mr. Eilers, down a couple of times and she brings it up every time she saw something.
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Speaker 3
She loves it. She's like, I knew I, you know.
00;13;06;04 - 00;13;07;05
Speaker 5
My gosh.
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Speaker 3
That's so cool. That's that's so fun. And and that I mean, that is your personality. Even to this day, though, like, you're going to find an opportunity and look.
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Speaker 4
For an angle. I mean, have fun doing it. I was yeah, I was making friends while out on the bus about this and you know, making friends and selling gumballs, I guess.
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Speaker 3
Was it like back then? I mean, was it like working towards like a PlayStation or something fun or was it literally just.
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Speaker 5
I was just the.
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Speaker 3
Hiking and had the hustle?
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Speaker 4
And I think it was just to be able to buy my baseball cards and my candy for free. That's of then a drug dealer right there. Drug dealer responds. That's not the case. Any slang.
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Speaker 5
At all, like.
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Speaker 3
Unity, Christian drug dealer they want and all they may have. Or if you need if you need your candy.
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Speaker 2
Fix them up.
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Speaker 4
But real candy.
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Speaker 5
This is real candy.
00;13;58;04 - 00;14;00;04
Speaker 3
Real gaming that they're okay, Stop.
00;14;00;04 - 00;14;01;09
Speaker 4
Winking at me. It is real.
00;14;01;11 - 00;14;02;01
Speaker 5
Can you.
00;14;02;02 - 00;14;04;11
Speaker 4
Just go?
00;14;04;13 - 00;14;10;20
Speaker 3
man, that's such a cool story. And that was in fifth, fourth grade now.
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Speaker 4
Fifth grade, I think. Yeah.
00;14;12;00 - 00;14;32;08
Speaker 3
Okay. So you've had a I mean, you you were. Do you. Did I maybe we talked about this too, but do you think you're born with that like or do you think it's part of like with the the entrepreneurial like that, that edge of like I'm going to push and have like find opportunity in anything or maybe.
00;14;32;08 - 00;14;55;26
Speaker 4
Not business specific, but I think some people are born with more competitive nature than others. Some people just despise competitive stuff. Any kind of competitive sports. Where I'm so into that I'm playing soccer tonight. I'm the oldest guy by far in the league. Probably shouldn't be playing any more. I'm one mild injury from retirement, but I'm I get out there, I don't know if it's that little endorphin rush or what it is, but just on how to compete.
00;14;55;28 - 00;15;01;20
Speaker 4
I mean, even if it's against old age, working out, doing something that's it's competition and and you'd have some of that my life.
00;15;01;27 - 00;15;08;14
Speaker 3
Yeah. So you got to I mean, you grow up with the farm and then on top of that you have soccer, which has been a huge part of your whole life.
00;15;08;17 - 00;15;09;15
Speaker 4
Like soccer family. Yeah.
00;15;09;16 - 00;15;16;22
Speaker 3
And that, I mean, I would imagine all that together, I mean, drives that competition or teaches you the competition, at least in a way, to.
00;15;16;24 - 00;15;40;25
Speaker 4
I think every kid should find not necessarily a sport, but maybe it's chess. Maybe it's something to really understand winning and losing this whole participation ribbons stuff is junk. When I coach Banks, his team gave a shout out to my beautiful wife, Lindsey, my son Banks, and my daughter Willa. My I told all the kids to score after every game and you're not supposed to do sorry, so write me up or something.
00;15;40;28 - 00;15;53;27
Speaker 4
But our kids understood what the score was because that is how life really works. You guys know in real estate, if a deal falls apart, they don't give you, like, a coupon. Yeah, Go get a free, I don't know, buffet, a Denny's or something.
00;15;54;00 - 00;15;58;17
Speaker 3
Hey. Yeah, you worked really hard on this. And so we're going to pay you 1%. Yeah.
00;15;58;21 - 00;16;00;18
Speaker 5
Yeah, that hasn't happened to me. Yeah.
00;16;00;20 - 00;16;03;28
Speaker 4
I on these. Here's part of my commercial. You know.
00;16;04;00 - 00;16;06;08
Speaker 2
You guys work hard, strive, but gather.
00;16;06;10 - 00;16;11;18
Speaker 3
Yeah, Unfortunately, sometimes just getting it done and still is still fighting to get paid.
00;16;11;20 - 00;16;30;04
Speaker 2
But I also do think just working on the farm, that mentality that had to shape you to some extent of just that grinding because I knew because my dad was a brick mason growing up. So my mom got sick of me. I like fourth grade summertime. She was like, You can go work for your dad. So it was hauling brick and mortar up and down the ladder my entire life.
00;16;30;04 - 00;16;34;25
Speaker 2
I realized pretty quickly I was like, Hey, dad, I love you, but I can't do this anymore for an entire life.
00;16;34;27 - 00;16;49;17
Speaker 4
I also think growing up on the farm just taught me that I have to. Hobbs I cannot build anything I can so I can negotiate, I can work with people, I can get the deal done. But yeah, got me to build a birdhouse right now. If you had the stuff you're here at City of Orange, we could grab some stuff.
00;16;49;17 - 00;17;00;14
Speaker 4
It would be terrible. I don't know what I would end up being a cadet project for. Always just got awful shop class stuff as crooked. I just tools. I don't understand how.
00;17;00;16 - 00;17;02;04
Speaker 5
You learn what you need to do.
00;17;02;09 - 00;17;05;27
Speaker 4
When someone can just build like a picture. Frame it at square. Yeah.
00;17;06;01 - 00;17;07;23
Speaker 5
What did you do? Did you do that?
00;17;07;25 - 00;17;12;17
Speaker 3
Or like Trevor's brother did all season? Yeah. Did the.
00;17;12;19 - 00;17;16;19
Speaker 4
Amazing work. And he just, like, looks and is like, I'll just do the counter.
00;17;16;20 - 00;17;25;12
Speaker 3
And then next thing you know, it's beautiful counters. And, and then he did all the cabinets and everything at shoreline as well and by himself and knocked it out of the park.
00;17;25;12 - 00;17;30;11
Speaker 4
And you can just you can just visualize that and yeah, I do not have any of that at one ounce.
00;17;30;14 - 00;17;50;12
Speaker 3
Yeah. But that's interesting because like I always give like Trevor's is goes as well, I think he would say, but like he can visualize that the end product of that development or that building and what it's going to be and I would say you have that same thing too where you can see it before, but you're just not going to go build it.
00;17;50;14 - 00;18;05;27
Speaker 4
Like striker's family. So in part, a lot of people saw that as just an old, junky, fun park I looked at said, Well, no, those are, you know, high end townhomes. We bought the property and it renovated to what it is today, Riverstone Townhomes, A lot of people just either one thought was a dumb idea or two, just it looks like a family.
00;18;05;27 - 00;18;18;13
Speaker 4
So I'm partial to family Fun park Well, no click. No, it's I've been driving by this how many times a day and there's apartments on both sides. What are we. Wait a minute. This is an apartment. So that just happens to temporarily be over.
00;18;18;16 - 00;18;21;02
Speaker 3
Those are the ones right off. BALDWIN Yeah.
00;18;21;04 - 00;18;22;10
Speaker 4
Yep, yep.
00;18;22;13 - 00;18;39;12
Speaker 3
MAN Yeah. So, I mean, and that's a skill to to be able to, like, not have to have the trees cut back or this or like the, say, completely graded before you see like, hey, this is a really nice parcel of land or this could be that. So that's a, that's a skill set too, even though it's not.
00;18;39;14 - 00;18;40;07
Speaker 4
There's a grind to it.
00;18;40;10 - 00;18;53;10
Speaker 3
Sure. Yeah. It's interesting but ALM so you're in high school unity Christian huge soccer family your sister was the base from what I've been told.
00;18;53;12 - 00;19;11;20
Speaker 4
You can you could argue that she's the Hall of Fame for soccer at Michigan State. Yeah I think she was the first what do you call it miss soccer now as a sophomore and then she was again a senior and I still is she holds most of the Michigan high school records for goals and assists.
00;19;11;22 - 00;19;20;24
Speaker 3
And I mean, part of that, I mean, it has to be growing up playing with three older brothers and fighting farm mentality, too. I'm sure you definitely.
00;19;20;24 - 00;19;31;16
Speaker 4
Made it easier, but she's had you like a cap. You can't not because you watch these other girls just hit her hard. I don't know. Just you are like, you should fall down. Boom. She does not fall down. That's a huge asset.
00;19;31;20 - 00;19;54;11
Speaker 3
Well, yeah, I know. Like, I think I brought this up the last time to, like, where I get the clip. You sent me a clip of all her highlights from Michigan State for her Hall of Fame video clip that they clipped together. And it's like if it was like it's at least 5 minutes long and I'm like, you could take every single game I played from the time I was a tar all the way.
00;19;54;11 - 00;20;01;23
Speaker 5
Through my highlight reel. Right now. That's when you and get that far. But it's.
00;20;01;26 - 00;20;07;27
Speaker 3
Like 1/32 clip of where like I accidentally, like, lost the puck to somebody and let go.
00;20;08;00 - 00;20;09;16
Speaker 4
And you probably have recorded now.
00;20;09;17 - 00;20;10;18
Speaker 3
Yep Yeah yeah.
00;20;10;19 - 00;20;12;00
Speaker 4
Well that tape was full of demo.
00;20;12;02 - 00;20;12;14
Speaker 3
Tape.
00;20;12;15 - 00;20;13;12
Speaker 2
At Staples goes.
00;20;13;12 - 00;20;15;10
Speaker 4
Back a ways.
00;20;15;13 - 00;20;16;04
Speaker 3
There.
00;20;16;07 - 00;20;18;19
Speaker 4
To bring it up three times so two more times.
00;20;18;21 - 00;20;21;22
Speaker 3
Yeah I'm I'm still rattled about it if you can't tell.
00;20;21;25 - 00;20;23;01
Speaker 5
Yeah it's.
00;20;23;04 - 00;20;29;25
Speaker 3
It's been it's been way I mean my confidence in the podcast game is just all time low after that one.
00;20;29;28 - 00;20;34;16
Speaker 2
And we're still shooting 80% though we're Nate our talk show about.
00;20;34;18 - 00;20;35;19
Speaker 5
Money Yeah if.
00;20;35;19 - 00;20;36;19
Speaker 3
I was hitting 80%.
00;20;36;19 - 00;20;37;02
Speaker 4
Strikes and.
00;20;37;02 - 00;20;38;08
Speaker 3
Buying baseball.
00;20;38;08 - 00;20;38;22
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;20;38;25 - 00;20;39;16
Speaker 3
Baseball.
00;20;39;23 - 00;20;41;07
Speaker 2
Baseball Hall of Fame.
00;20;41;07 - 00;20;42;17
Speaker 3
Hall of Fame by far.
00;20;42;19 - 00;20;46;01
Speaker 4
Yeah. All for now. Hockey. Maybe we're.
00;20;46;03 - 00;20;47;10
Speaker 2
You're probably get benched, right?
00;20;47;16 - 00;20;57;00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. And I 80% not maybe if it was your power play percent but yeah no gold goaltending you're Yeah you're not even making your high school team.
00;20;57;00 - 00;21;01;07
Speaker 5
Probably take it.
00;21;01;09 - 00;21;19;09
Speaker 4
So that brings us to high school. Yeah that's the Jays pizza plus era downtown Hudsonville big dance knowing owner and all the people that we work with there. Great job. I think I started at 14 back before these new laws where you can like look at a job for an hour a day and that's the most kids can do.
00;21;19;11 - 00;21;28;00
Speaker 4
I mean back and we could work till midnight or 1:00 when we closed. I believe I hold the record. I have to check with Dan. We don't have or we all have people calling out there.
00;21;28;01 - 00;21;29;22
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;21;29;24 - 00;21;49;29
Speaker 4
What are the younger managers? I know I couldn't drive yet, so I like 15, 15 a half. I was 16. On Saturdays. Dan would go to the Michigan games and I would stay back and can oversee things. So big shareholder Dan, he was huge with my schedule as far as through high school and college were here on my sports, working around classes up at Northwood.
00;21;50;01 - 00;22;08;03
Speaker 4
We can go more into that. Basically, I would go to class at least Sunday, go to class at North University Monday through Thursday, come back and work for Dan Friday, Saturday, as many hours I could possibly put in managing delivered pizzas, whatever it took, and then back Sunday, see the family and then head back north.
00;22;08;05 - 00;22;13;24
Speaker 3
Was was deejays just because I mean for you living right over there how was the connection.
00;22;13;29 - 00;22;27;22
Speaker 4
Really good friends of my an uncle okay I think my I don't know if I ask my parents are probably other way around were like, hey boy, you're getting a job, you know. And when I met with Dan, he gave me a shot and met a lot of good friends. And we're not about business, both good and bad.
00;22;27;22 - 00;22;31;25
Speaker 4
And then I got to give a shout out to Dan because I wanted to buy it after I graduate college. And he said, No.
00;22;32;00 - 00;22;35;11
Speaker 2
I was going to say, Did you ever think about getting into like the food industry or restaurants?
00;22;35;11 - 00;22;44;14
Speaker 4
I was a subscriber to Pizza today at like 17 years old, coming in the mailbox monthly. Well, pizza monthly. It makes sense. Yeah.
00;22;44;16 - 00;22;53;15
Speaker 3
What happened? Yeah, that's just right. Yeah. That's why you're different, though. It is like then you take the steps to make sure that you're subscribed because you're going to be the best at it.
00;22;53;21 - 00;23;12;11
Speaker 4
It was a good social, social experiment. You're meeting kids from other schools, and how do you motivate the people underneath you? How do you work with people who are older than you that need to answer to you? And how do people tech? And that's I don't know if you're born with that too, but I'm pretty good at reading people and figuring out what their motivation is, how to motivate people to to be the best at what they can do.
00;23;12;13 - 00;23;28;23
Speaker 3
Yeah. So you weren't there deejays doing high school, Andrew College at Northwood, which I mean, I think you you mentioned last time that Northwood was like kind of like when you decided like, hey, I'm going to lean into academics and yeah.
00;23;28;25 - 00;23;36;09
Speaker 4
Yeah, I graduated. I was voted teacher, torturer, I believe. And, you know, their senior year graduated with a29.
00;23;36;13 - 00;23;40;01
Speaker 3
I think that's pretty good, right? I was trying.
00;23;40;03 - 00;23;40;17
Speaker 4
Girls.
00;23;40;17 - 00;23;41;08
Speaker 3
Too.
00;23;41;10 - 00;23;42;15
Speaker 5
I was playing side soccer.
00;23;42;17 - 00;23;44;08
Speaker 3
That was it. Yeah. Yeah.
00;23;44;10 - 00;24;02;07
Speaker 4
And just the English lit classes and some of those just I couldn't focus on I'm 80 or ADHD which one to read one of those years and so it's just so hard to sit and just focus on something like that when I really it's not right. I wish I was focused more, but at the time it's so hard to find a return on that time.
00;24;02;08 - 00;24;09;25
Speaker 3
What's or you're you're not seeing the value proposition in like studying or being you'd rather play soccer or work.
00;24;09;25 - 00;24;27;13
Speaker 4
Yeah, my mind was elsewhere. Yeah. So did what I had to to get. I had soccer scholar which ended up hurting the soccer scholarship wise. There's some schools that they just couldn't get me. They wanted me on the team but yeah, grade point average there's no around it And we did have some scholarships to Aquinas, Cornerstone, Spring Arbor, but they're partial to schools.
00;24;27;13 - 00;24;28;17
Speaker 4
Good schools are expensive.
00;24;28;17 - 00;24;34;24
Speaker 3
And then if you don't have the grades on top of that to stack the the Yeah, whatever. I've drawn a.
00;24;34;24 - 00;24;40;24
Speaker 4
Lot of this kind of schools. Will you lose your grade point, find some other scholarship money you know so.
00;24;40;27 - 00;25;04;15
Speaker 3
Bowling green even with my low GPA and as active your S.A.T. whatever we take score somehow they like you're on full ride scholarship but you're not really because they get credit for you for being out of state. They get credit for you for academics. And they say, really your your full forehead recipient. But you're like really probably a 75% scholarship person for the team based on that money.
00;25;04;15 - 00;25;13;11
Speaker 3
They find other places so they can spread it out. Yeah, my academics and help me very much either but I got into brown.
00;25;13;13 - 00;25;14;07
Speaker 4
Did you really know?
00;25;14;09 - 00;25;14;25
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;25;14;27 - 00;25;17;00
Speaker 3
Two nine and then 21 and they it's.
00;25;17;07 - 00;25;20;05
Speaker 4
Like in Alaska like they.
00;25;20;07 - 00;25;24;14
Speaker 3
Like Brown University and the only.
00;25;24;16 - 00;25;27;15
Speaker 5
University. University of Phenix. Yeah. What?
00;25;27;18 - 00;25;30;12
Speaker 3
No, I got in, That's my only.
00;25;30;14 - 00;25;31;29
Speaker 4
Friend. Those I don't know. And your office.
00;25;31;29 - 00;25;34;04
Speaker 3
What now? Did your.
00;25;34;04 - 00;25;34;20
Speaker 4
Parents, did.
00;25;34;20 - 00;25;36;04
Speaker 2
You ever consider it.
00;25;36;07 - 00;26;03;04
Speaker 3
I, I it was the same type of thing. So you're like looking at different schools. So I had like a half to Quinnipiac, which is also. It's not Ivy League, but it's an Ivy Leagues and beautiful schools that have they're brown because they're an official Ivy League school can't give a scholarship. And then you have other schools like Alabama, Huntsville or Minnesota State or Bowling Green who offered full rights.
00;26;03;04 - 00;26;18;27
Speaker 3
And it's like school for free books are free board for free or go to Brown and you're paying, what, 50, 62 and full bowl service. And I was a michigan boy, so to be close to Michigan. But looking back you.
00;26;18;27 - 00;26;23;02
Speaker 4
Went to where would you be now going to be talking about as a CEO.
00;26;23;02 - 00;26;25;10
Speaker 3
Of. I think I'd be, yeah. Or travel.
00;26;25;10 - 00;26;26;28
Speaker 4
Or something. Yeah.
00;26;27;00 - 00;26;30;03
Speaker 3
I mean, I don't want to be here again, but I'd at least be vice president.
00;26;30;03 - 00;26;32;28
Speaker 4
I think I most of the big companies everyone's a VP of.
00;26;33;02 - 00;26;35;11
Speaker 3
Yeah, no, I'm in the United States.
00;26;35;13 - 00;26;38;04
Speaker 5
The whole, the whole, the whole, the whole again.
00;26;38;06 - 00;26;40;15
Speaker 3
I mean, I'm trying to be modest.
00;26;40;18 - 00;26;43;02
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, you'd be a senator at this point.
00;26;43;05 - 00;26;44;14
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;26;44;16 - 00;26;45;13
Speaker 2
You to work your way.
00;26;45;13 - 00;26;45;26
Speaker 5
Up.
00;26;45;28 - 00;26;50;18
Speaker 3
Like, like of a Not a great state though. Maybe. Yeah. Those local.
00;26;50;18 - 00;26;52;11
Speaker 2
Idaho or so.
00;26;52;13 - 00;26;53;21
Speaker 5
But any and I got.
00;26;53;24 - 00;26;55;18
Speaker 4
You can read.
00;26;55;20 - 00;26;56;09
Speaker 5
We'll take you.
00;26;56;09 - 00;27;01;09
Speaker 3
In the Indiana senator exactly now so yeah I get that what.
00;27;01;09 - 00;27;03;14
Speaker 2
Did you study that north northwest.
00;27;03;15 - 00;27;11;29
Speaker 4
North what the business focus school from day one. So I mean there's still some pretty tracks like English that you need to take to be, you know, get an actual diploma.
00;27;12;01 - 00;27;12;29
Speaker 3
In town, though. Right.
00;27;13;03 - 00;27;14;22
Speaker 4
It's in Midland. So you're 2 hours away.
00;27;14;25 - 00;27;17;09
Speaker 3
Did they have a campus in town there or they.
00;27;17;09 - 00;27;20;00
Speaker 4
Do or did have a grad school like.
00;27;20;00 - 00;27;25;22
Speaker 3
Remote, like up Michigan? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I used to be a grad only.
00;27;25;27 - 00;27;46;22
Speaker 4
Okay. Satellite grad office. But my buddy Jimmy Ballou told me about it. He's like, Dude, I'm going here. You got to come check this out. So I went up and everything just kind of clicked like, yes, this is an English class with working on resumes in business plans. Like, there there is a way to spin the prerequisite you need to get and you're start taking business classes on day one.
00;27;46;22 - 00;28;03;09
Speaker 4
So all of a sudden now I've got something I want to focus on I want to run towards. And he was just a little bit older, a little bit more mature, if you will. But I graduated class president and I don't know, my GPA wasn't a floor plan or anything, but it was, you know, three, five, three, six something respectable.
00;28;03;15 - 00;28;06;23
Speaker 4
Mom was just like, all right, if I can focus on something I like.
00;28;06;28 - 00;28;07;12
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;28;07;14 - 00;28;23;08
Speaker 3
Did you plan, like, enjoy it? I mean, so you going in with a goal to do well in school at that point? But, like, did you did you, in your mind, vision something that you were going to do, like I'm going to get into plumbing or I'm going to get into.
00;28;23;11 - 00;28;53;22
Speaker 4
Old Buddy Holly in a long list of companies that I started hybridizing in at Northwood, I saw all these delivery vehicles as a pizza spinoff. But I said, Why don't I lease vans to Pizza Hut? And so the advertising in the side of the vans, like NASCAR, he got to a market that you know exactly the circle. So you have to focus markets to the local mom and pop and VCR repair store can advertise on the side of the van Pizza Hut gets vans so they don't worry about me delivering an old junker.
00;28;53;24 - 00;29;13;15
Speaker 4
I'm like this, This has to work. So I got pricing together for all the vans and I'm still waiting for that call back. Peter I left probably four or five messages back then. I mean, email wasn't a strong thing, but I did leave quite a few messages with like the regional Pizza Hut team and to this day my name is wrong number.
00;29;13;15 - 00;29;14;29
Speaker 2
It's still waiting for the call.
00;29;15;02 - 00;29;16;20
Speaker 4
Does that come? Yep.
00;29;16;22 - 00;29;22;10
Speaker 3
Yeah. Have you ever seen or seen the Tom Green show, The Pizza under Cutter?
00;29;22;12 - 00;29;23;18
Speaker 4
I have. No.
00;29;23;21 - 00;29;28;14
Speaker 3
You had like, I don't know exactly how he did it, but he's like, follow the pizza. All right.
00;29;28;15 - 00;29;31;04
Speaker 4
Do you remember he had, like, run in front of try to sell for cheaper?
00;29;31;04 - 00;29;34;02
Speaker 3
Yeah, He had a tackle box full of toppings.
00;29;34;05 - 00;29;35;09
Speaker 5
What do you mean? What you are.
00;29;35;11 - 00;29;48;25
Speaker 3
Is like I said before, and now is so good. man. So you're Northwood. Is. Is there a connection into Grand Rapids? I'm like, DeMoss or something? I don't know.
00;29;48;25 - 00;29;54;07
Speaker 4
Like one of them went to school there. Wendy, the daughter of Dave Thomas, went there.
00;29;54;09 - 00;29;54;23
Speaker 3
okay.
00;29;54;26 - 00;29;55;21
Speaker 4
Wendy, whoever.
00;29;55;21 - 00;29;57;04
Speaker 3
You know, Wendy, of one year you.
00;29;57;07 - 00;30;04;26
Speaker 4
Had divorce, has divorced graduate school business school up there. They've got their name on two buildings. So one of them went to school up there.
00;30;05;03 - 00;30;10;16
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yeah. So you and Jimmy Van Loo and I didn't know Jim went to. They had to be fun.
00;30;10;19 - 00;30;27;28
Speaker 4
It was good. That was my college roommate. I You'd have to come back for six months and then we're going to Jason go back up. Then Jimmy and I left for seven or eight months, took a couple of trimesters off to help his brother start a celery farm in Marshall. So I lived over there for a while. That was another.
00;30;27;28 - 00;30;28;07
Speaker 4
I mean.
00;30;28;07 - 00;30;29;06
Speaker 3
What is that?
00;30;29;08 - 00;30;48;11
Speaker 4
That until he had moved his operation from up north, lost the equipment and rented a farm in Marshall. So planting. And then by the time Jimmy and I got there was time for harvest, which was I mean, when you woke up until you went to bed, you worked a day matter a day it was because you're working. So it was good and bad.
00;30;48;11 - 00;31;09;00
Speaker 4
It was good for the work ethic. But also near the end, you're harvesting celery. Apple used round numbers, $10 a box in a cost you 12, but you have to harvest because your otherwise you're losing all 12. Now you're only losing two. And that was and that's where the market controls the price of a California has a good year.
00;31;09;00 - 00;31;22;27
Speaker 4
You're having a bad and vice versa. So how can you kind of control more variables when it comes to business? How the more you can control, the better, obviously. But some of the farming things, if you got a really good year, you have a really, really good year. Yeah.
00;31;23;00 - 00;31;23;05
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;31;23;09 - 00;31;26;11
Speaker 4
I love to cash and then you probably chase that for the next seven years.
00;31;26;11 - 00;31;50;15
Speaker 3
And that's kind of I mean, I think Steve was telling me that from structures as well that he they've had two really good years of apples and they're putting these things inside of these egg barns, a storm for a year. And with that though like sometimes having a great grow year isn't always a positive because of the whole market just flooded it Yeah pushes price on.
00;31;50;17 - 00;31;58;24
Speaker 4
Yeah there's a lot of moving parts and pieces and you can do everything right Kind of like the dairy farm. Growing up, everything was being done right and it's out of your control. It's just the margins, you know?
00;31;58;26 - 00;32;03;25
Speaker 3
Yeah, I don't even know what salary looks like in the garage. Like, I don't even know the celery plant looks like.
00;32;03;25 - 00;32;08;10
Speaker 4
It's blue and like, polka dotted. And then when you pull it, it looks like normal. Sorry, man.
00;32;08;11 - 00;32;10;19
Speaker 2
So how how big it was?
00;32;10;21 - 00;32;11;19
Speaker 4
Any other kind of story?
00;32;11;23 - 00;32;12;26
Speaker 2
How big was that farm.
00;32;13;00 - 00;32;15;25
Speaker 4
Down in Marshall? Marshall? I don't even remember that Those.
00;32;15;27 - 00;32;17;24
Speaker 2
Had to be a pretty decent sized farm, though for.
00;32;17;25 - 00;32;29;16
Speaker 4
At least a hundred acres. Came with a couple of houses and it was a good I mean, again, didn't know any better. But yeah, I'm just trying to picture how I lived off like a couple of hundred bucks a week. Like, how is that possible back then?
00;32;29;18 - 00;32;35;14
Speaker 3
That's amazing. Yeah. And then when? How long did you know Jim then did you meet him and you met him in.
00;32;35;18 - 00;32;41;20
Speaker 4
I met him in third grade when I traded him. Bubble bottle for Operation Wolf Tunnel games.
00;32;41;22 - 00;32;43;08
Speaker 3
Who won that trade?
00;32;43;10 - 00;32;43;25
Speaker 4
Depends on who.
00;32;43;25 - 00;32;46;15
Speaker 5
You ask, You know.
00;32;46;18 - 00;32;52;25
Speaker 4
Let me test you guys. You get you got that one game on the island for the rest of your life. You're on Bubba. Bob, are you going operational?
00;32;52;27 - 00;32;54;09
Speaker 3
I don't.
00;32;54;11 - 00;32;55;04
Speaker 2
Even know he's older.
00;32;55;10 - 00;32;56;06
Speaker 3
Or too young.
00;32;56;08 - 00;32;57;24
Speaker 2
For those 64.
00;32;57;26 - 00;33;00;06
Speaker 5
No, no. Original Nintendo original.
00;33;00;11 - 00;33;02;13
Speaker 2
Now, the reply That.
00;33;02;16 - 00;33;14;01
Speaker 4
Bubble bar was a simpler game. I can play it for a longer operation. Was was more of a shoot em up. It's going to be fun for a couple of levels and then you never get past that script to use. Have some research to forget the seven.
00;33;14;05 - 00;33;19;09
Speaker 3
Yeah, I'll play it. I'm sure there's probably an app. I'll download that. Yeah, we'll download that.
00;33;19;11 - 00;33;41;05
Speaker 4
So at the at the farm I witnessed three people lose fingers in that like seven month period. Jim's grandfather, Jim's dad, and Joe. And when Jim's grandpa lost his, he lost a couple like right from the knuckles and sorry gone but he just turned out, said, I hope this helps my golf game.
00;33;41;07 - 00;33;44;15
Speaker 2
It's going to say, grab the gorilla glue like or fight like that series.
00;33;44;16 - 00;33;47;29
Speaker 3
I would have been. I would have been crying for sure. Yeah. Screaming.
00;33;48;01 - 00;33;50;08
Speaker 4
Yep. That's right. That's part of the deal.
00;33;50;11 - 00;33;53;02
Speaker 3
I hope this helps my golf game.
00;33;53;04 - 00;33;53;23
Speaker 4
What are you going to sit.
00;33;53;23 - 00;33;56;08
Speaker 5
There, boy? Thanks.
00;33;56;10 - 00;33;58;20
Speaker 4
He had a covered up that wasn't like, gross.
00;33;58;20 - 00;34;00;13
Speaker 5
But yeah, how to.
00;34;00;13 - 00;34;01;12
Speaker 4
Farmers just roll with the.
00;34;01;12 - 00;34;02;20
Speaker 5
Punches chases.
00;34;02;22 - 00;34;07;06
Speaker 4
And only count eight now? Yeah, well said.
00;34;07;08 - 00;34;11;05
Speaker 2
I'd be worried if I was Jim because he had Grandpa. Dad, you got to be next.
00;34;11;07 - 00;34;16;29
Speaker 4
It's probably pretty good that we got out of here. Yeah. Brand? Yep.
00;34;17;01 - 00;34;34;23
Speaker 3
He can only count the one man Gumball dogs, by the way. I should. I should give that. Go get go bulldogs. But anyways, so you're graduate from Northwood. Any plan at this point in your life or.
00;34;34;25 - 00;34;48;20
Speaker 4
Now just kind of I mean, was seriously classifieds what jobs are out there? I mean, we're all for okay, so the market wasn't terrible, but it wasn't near like what it has been around here in the last four or five years where people are fighting for people. Yeah.
00;34;48;22 - 00;34;55;20
Speaker 3
Where you always planning on being here? Yeah. I could see you being like, I want to push out into move to Chicago or.
00;34;55;23 - 00;35;12;06
Speaker 4
Just putting drawing up on a farm and kind of stuff too. And you kind of have roots. And a good example. I told my sister in law she had a choice between MSU or Florida, and I said, If you go to Florida, I'll pay for all your books because there is something sad about jumping into a new culture, learning new things.
00;35;12;06 - 00;35;33;21
Speaker 4
Now she's got friends from all across the country with way different backgrounds, and I think that's healthy. Yeah, rather than just staying around the Yes people that you already know. So I got some really great friends who have some great Italian friends. Yo, Romeo de la Bella up in New York that I met through Northwood just just being immersed with people in a group completely different from West Michigan.
00;35;33;23 - 00;35;37;19
Speaker 4
Everyone's Dutch for the most part. Yeah. What?
00;35;37;22 - 00;35;42;15
Speaker 3
West Michigan values all the great things, but to be.
00;35;42;15 - 00;35;44;03
Speaker 4
More well-rounded, you need.
00;35;44;05 - 00;35;51;06
Speaker 3
It's good to know that there's other things out there that not everyone shares those values. You know, there's a there's.
00;35;51;08 - 00;36;01;18
Speaker 4
And by that I was I was dating my who in future be my wife Lindsey so that can help keep her on she was doing her masters as a CPA where I'm at Grand Valley.
00;36;01;18 - 00;36;02;09
Speaker 3
Okay.
00;36;02;12 - 00;36;16;00
Speaker 4
So that was part of it. And then let me work and is if I graduated a kind of deep breath and find something I did I did mortgages for seven or eight months. I think in just a dirty business. I mean, that's.
00;36;16;00 - 00;36;19;01
Speaker 3
Back was there was a four getting up to.
00;36;19;01 - 00;36;32;11
Speaker 4
It was the start of what happened. I mean I watched people cut and paste. You should be cutting and pasting and photocopying things, put it that way. you know, you're not. No, I never did. You the guys that I worked with that went to jail for a while.
00;36;32;11 - 00;36;33;05
Speaker 3
Come on.
00;36;33;07 - 00;36;35;21
Speaker 4
Research just kept track on on and then later on and.
00;36;35;22 - 00;36;42;12
Speaker 3
Where you had a lender or you were you as a broker. Okay, so that was you're like at the epicenter was a wild west of.
00;36;42;12 - 00;37;07;27
Speaker 4
I didn't even really know what's going on. That actually caused my first real estate fail and probably got to terminal real estate forever. All the all the lenders, brokers or even call them what their name was. Everyone was buying houses. And what you do is you go and you buy a house. You find someone who lost their job, they've got 150,000 their house, they owe 60 on it.
00;37;07;27 - 00;37;24;24
Speaker 4
You say, Hey, look, I'll buy your house for 85, and then you can say, Here, here's your new rent. You got to stay in your house. But you cut me a check for that 20 grand at close and you make a bunch of money upfront and you get a rental home. And, you know, I guess it can work if you got it.
00;37;24;26 - 00;37;26;09
Speaker 3
Keeps going up. It works.
00;37;26;10 - 00;37;30;12
Speaker 2
Was this like, what, 2006? 2007? Yeah.
00;37;30;14 - 00;37;51;22
Speaker 4
no, I graduated four so I would been five there for about it or just for probably six months and then jumped in there schedule 505, four or six So I had a deal brought to me from another guy in the office said, Hey look, here's a great deal. Run Diamond, Grand Rapids, decent looking house, husband passed away, wife has equity in the house.
00;37;51;25 - 00;38;06;29
Speaker 4
Wants to do you know wants to stay there Heart's in this house and so I went in bought it say at least pay it was back when they were doing these literally they just called you just Peter and said, hey, just need water. That was underwriting back then. And they're like, Yep. So those are like, All right, good.
00;38;07;06 - 00;38;09;25
Speaker 4
So no dark one of those. No dark seas. Yeah.
00;38;09;29 - 00;38;13;21
Speaker 3
And then is it a ninja? No, no income, no job.
00;38;13;24 - 00;38;18;13
Speaker 4
It was when the children or whatever they needed to hear a human voice that network something.
00;38;18;13 - 00;38;19;23
Speaker 2
Yeah. He's alive. He's working.
00;38;19;24 - 00;38;35;21
Speaker 4
Here. Which I see why some of those programs were created back in the day for people that receive tips, cash tips to help offset that. But then it just grew completely out of control. So I buy this house at close. She does not give me the money. She keeps it and says, it's my I'm going to teach you a lesson.
00;38;35;21 - 00;38;48;18
Speaker 4
So sorry. But she gave me the first couple of months rent. I'm like, okay, well, I still have equity. According to this appraisal, which ended up being junk. Anyways, back then this guy was using an appraiser that you just told him what you know. Yeah, there's.
00;38;48;19 - 00;38;50;00
Speaker 2
Going to be I'm.
00;38;50;03 - 00;39;13;04
Speaker 4
Guessing it's going to come back at 139 Nine. Yeah. weird. So I end up buying it. She stopped paying rent after three, four or five months and I'm like, okay. So I just kind of fold it. She paid me a little bit every now and again, but then the two year arm hit and my new rates is going to be or go from 700 to 1400, for example.
00;39;13;04 - 00;39;28;07
Speaker 4
I mean, I was Wow. Yeah. So I went to my buddy's dad, who is a was a mortgage broker and said, Hey, look, I got to refi now. I was up for most of this point, which we can talk about, need to refinance this house. And he goes, Dude, I know. I don't don't know how to do this.
00;39;28;07 - 00;39;33;23
Speaker 4
She's still in the title. They never took her off the title and I bought it. So her and I own this house together. my.
00;39;33;23 - 00;39;34;04
Speaker 2
God.
00;39;34;08 - 00;39;51;26
Speaker 4
Crown title. she ended up going to prison out of Greenville, was the title company at the time and they it was all set up. The mortgage broker who brought the deal to me, it was secretly her boyfriend and it was a giant sham. So I talked to an attorney and he's like.
00;39;51;29 - 00;39;52;16
Speaker 5
Okay.
00;39;52;18 - 00;39;54;28
Speaker 2
You what can you do? At that point.
00;39;55;00 - 00;40;03;15
Speaker 4
I could have tried to fight it and fight the title company. And he's like, this appraisals inflated. It's not worth this. So you can spend five grand just to get beat.
00;40;03;18 - 00;40;04;12
Speaker 3
To get more.
00;40;04;14 - 00;40;06;28
Speaker 4
Grand. Yeah. Was I did get in the case just.
00;40;07;02 - 00;40;07;18
Speaker 5
Yeah well.
00;40;07;24 - 00;40;23;07
Speaker 4
I call the mortgage company I'm like here I'm going to you the case. This house is yours. And took a dig on the credit for seven years but I think that I mean it's kind of embarrassing story to tell but being young, getting kicked is not a bad thing. And I got kicked off pretty good, even though it was from there.
00;40;23;08 - 00;40;25;03
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's a learning experience.
00;40;25;06 - 00;40;37;09
Speaker 3
When you're going into the I mean, obviously it's a lot of new things. I mean, did you did you feel at all like something's weird about this or were you like, I trust this person, like this has to be a good deal?
00;40;37;09 - 00;40;54;25
Speaker 4
Or was there's just so many fast deals going on. It is one of those things like you don't want to be left out. Yeah. Also doing it. Yeah. I ran into a couple other brokers who had did the same thing and got burned the same way I did. There's a couple of people on the side, so they just took advantage of our young credit where we had credit.
00;40;54;25 - 00;40;55;21
Speaker 4
And yeah.
00;40;55;24 - 00;41;32;28
Speaker 3
So some part of me too, like when I like when you hear like the oily breakdown and like, you know, they like it was all the lenders fault and people didn't know. I think there there are cases out there for that. But I think I mean most of it was driven by people that did know and were literally taking advantage of the greed portion of it to like, hey, I'm going to pull out 120% of the debt on this House, the value of this House and that and and things like that, as opposed to like somebody not completely knowing like that's my was my mindset when I hear something like this and I'm like,
00;41;33;00 - 00;41;34;24
Speaker 3
okay, maybe it was a lot worse than I thought.
00;41;34;25 - 00;41;59;15
Speaker 4
Underwriter for the lender was in the next office over. So you brought your file to him. Same off. He reviewed the corrections or whatever it was. But you know, hey, here's your step to take it back. Me Countrywide was across the street, so people just drop stuff off. And we all the companies that I remember, you know, having the reps come in, they're all gone, you know, a wiped all of them out.
00;41;59;17 - 00;42;16;08
Speaker 4
So I kind of got a weird I still had a taste for real estate. I love the idea of making a couple dollars off. Not working for someone can mean the opposite of what contracting is contracting. You're constantly fighting for the next job. Real estate is a my. There's a check here again, I have to work this month, you know, on the property.
00;42;16;08 - 00;42;19;03
Speaker 4
Maybe not, but still, still intrigued me. I didn't give.
00;42;19;03 - 00;42;19;20
Speaker 3
Up.
00;42;19;22 - 00;42;35;06
Speaker 4
But it was a good learning lesson to surround yourself with people you trust and and take a second look at things. Yeah, but also just treat people right. I'm like how I'm looking at those people on the other side of the table that did this to me. I'm like, How do you how do you like how do you sleep at night?
00;42;35;09 - 00;42;40;05
Speaker 4
Like, how do you like at the end of day, go have a beer with your friends. Be like, I just screwed over. I want people as girls.
00;42;40;05 - 00;42;42;08
Speaker 3
Yeah, I was in absolute in green.
00;42;42;08 - 00;42;43;15
Speaker 4
In you. Yeah.
00;42;43;17 - 00;42;58;27
Speaker 3
They're out there. What's. What's up? What was your night? And hopefully will come back if it puts us too far forward. But like how was your next deal that you're willing to then in and like how nervous were you about it. How gun shy were you on it?
00;42;58;29 - 00;43;18;00
Speaker 4
So next let me think so that would have been our first 14, you know, complex that my father and brother Eric and I did. But we knew the land from the story for the vacant land made sense. He went to church with my brother Eric knew the family so it was a very cautious, safe place going in.
00;43;18;02 - 00;43;19;06
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00;43;19;08 - 00;43;46;02
Speaker 4
That was many years later. I mean, they get the credit fix and everything else, but that was kind of a that led me to go to foremost, which ended up being a great, great transition. As we talk about the BHP creation, I love working for most good people. I was climbing the corporate ladder. Yeah, but I learned a lot about corporate structure that just I despised meetings upon meetings about meetings, and I've held one meeting at my office this year.
00;43;46;05 - 00;43;53;09
Speaker 4
I went to go talk to staff. Personally, I don't I don't know. I was standing Monday morning meeting who does that, who hates their employees that much like Monday morning.
00;43;53;11 - 00;43;54;23
Speaker 5
Everyone of you want to get here.
00;43;54;23 - 00;44;13;02
Speaker 4
So the first thing we do is just all stare at each other for a while. Yep. First thing in the T was late Monday morning and I just got away from I got away from start times and titles and I just never saw the value because there were people that showed up 5 minutes early all the time in this corporate world and were God awful what they did 5 minutes late.
00;44;13;09 - 00;44;35;02
Speaker 4
Or what if I closed, you know, 20 claims in 4 hours in this person closes ten in eight? Yeah. Why can I go home? So I was a catastrophe adjuster. So I did Katrina and Rita around the country. And after hurricanes, it was mobile homes. So it wasn't the hardest job because you'd be like, Hey, that's where your house was.
00;44;35;02 - 00;44;54;25
Speaker 4
It's not there anymore. Here's a check, here's call pictures and take off. But that allowed me the flexibility because it was it was a salary position, but it was also based on performance. I was not going to sell my group. Yeah. You're the top couple of your group. You're doing well. Your boss is worried about training new people and go do your own thing.
00;44;54;25 - 00;44;55;19
Speaker 4
I was.
00;44;55;21 - 00;44;59;29
Speaker 3
I was going to be here If there wasn't some incentive for you in some way, because there.
00;44;59;29 - 00;45;20;10
Speaker 4
Were there were competitors. There are some steps and perks. Some rewards would come along with it. But it was definitely was not a commissioned job. It was it was good. I learned more about construction because I needed no search contracting, building and estimates and no exact me and some of the software that's out there today. So that did help with the dog and that stuff going forward.
00;45;20;13 - 00;45;44;18
Speaker 6
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00;45;44;18 - 00;45;50;21
Speaker 6
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00;45;50;24 - 00;46;10;08
Speaker 3
Where you burnt out on the lake going from the wolf of the this world of like Wolf of Wall Street ask loan brokers and all this greed really kind of turned off at all on sales and commissions and that world even real estate in general.
00;46;10;10 - 00;46;27;22
Speaker 4
Maybe I'll sour to it for a little bit. I mean foremost as more of a structured everyday job like shop named, I set my hours at 9 to 6, which I'll explain for the dog thing here a little bit, but to get away from the commission thing for a while, it was good for me to not just jump into another commission based trusting people right away.
00;46;27;22 - 00;46;35;23
Speaker 4
Just, Hey, let's go to work, let's make some money. Let's work on, you know, see any of that, start your house in and go from there. If it was a good price. Sure.
00;46;35;28 - 00;46;39;14
Speaker 3
And how long how long were you at foremost?
00;46;39;17 - 00;46;41;18
Speaker 4
I want to say about two years.
00;46;41;21 - 00;46;46;19
Speaker 3
So you got to be like, six or seven?
00;46;46;22 - 00;47;00;14
Speaker 4
Yeah. Strong. All right. And of five until I think I finally quit and went full time ADHD just before eight. GIRL Okay, so that's where you ended up in the new.
00;47;00;16 - 00;47;01;24
Speaker 3
Book Jumping the Dog Here.
00;47;02;00 - 00;47;20;24
Speaker 4
So ADHD started with my dad and my brother. It wasn't even called degree at that point. At this time, my father was working at Allied Mechanical. My brother Eric, the same now, excuse me, my brother Eric was working at RB Mechanical is a welder in the field. My father was a foreman at that time and they started doing some moonlighting stuff.
00;47;20;27 - 00;47;43;29
Speaker 4
I was just for somebody from church, you know, church, bathroom renovation. They were doing a mixed use building out in Allendale. So, you know, get done, you know, plumbing and pipe fitting at 3:00 and at 330, start again doing it for yourself. We all have that entrepreneurial spirit and hi, we're family. So I think subliminally they were you know, they knew that we're were going to go do something different eventually.
00;47;44;05 - 00;47;52;05
Speaker 4
Yeah, but I get to the point where they came to me. We got a problem here, like they want insurance. They said, we don't have insurance. They're not going to pay us.
00;47;52;10 - 00;47;53;23
Speaker 5
Like.
00;47;53;26 - 00;48;06;13
Speaker 4
I got. You got to have a connection to figure this out. We got that figured out. And a couple more jobs later, they say we need a tax ID number. Like, you know, where do you who do I call now? We get a tax number. So I did.
00;48;06;13 - 00;48;08;04
Speaker 3
That and.
00;48;08;07 - 00;48;28;20
Speaker 4
Eventually I think the LLC was informally formed sometime in five ish. So there's some there's some weird overlap there. I'm trying to foremost and you and I kind of explain that. So they kind of said, Hey, need you can do the business stuff. We can plumb sell, you can sell, you know, we want to just get dirty.
00;48;28;20 - 00;48;38;02
Speaker 4
We know we're doing out there. But behind the scenes, we need someone to take care of these things. You're not good at things you don't care about. Yeah, Good. I don't know. Back then, we you know, again, I saw those and the me.
00;48;38;04 - 00;48;40;02
Speaker 5
That I'm building.
00;48;40;04 - 00;48;59;21
Speaker 4
But I can make the connections and put up some of these fires so they can just go back to make money. If they're not at the time turning wrenches. There's no money coming in. You're busy You know, you're, you're working in the business out on the business. And they had a little bit of help there. So we officially became the three of us became business owners somewhere along that line.
00;48;59;21 - 00;49;24;23
Speaker 4
But I was moving Ladder was a senior adjuster at that time. So financially, you know, it made sense in my first house at this point, I'm not just going to quit and there there's no money to pay me. Yeah, just like, yeah, yeah. We're working out of my brother's brother Eric's house and garage at that time, so my 9 to 6 schedule helped because I couldn't find a delivery trailer in the morning or something like that.
00;49;24;23 - 00;49;42;24
Speaker 4
Come back after. Didn't have any kids yet, so we had plenty of time. My wife was in public accounting, so her hours, especially in the spring, were ungodly long. Yeah, free time to help work on this. And it was also just enjoyable for us. You know, my father and my brother Eric sit down and talk business. And, you know, I remember I still remember getting our first order of shirts with the logo on it.
00;49;42;24 - 00;50;04;26
Speaker 4
Like that kind of cool stuff, you know, stays with you forever. So we're having an on working on that land a couple days of like a little that clinic addition. So what I would do is what I'm at foremost which is out Caledonia I go to the office if I had to in the morning, then I'd go in on my lunch breaks.
00;50;04;26 - 00;50;27;14
Speaker 4
I'd take lunch at 11 and I would take out my formal shirt on a DG shirt. I'll go into the local general contractors, went to Walgreens Office Rock for a day and or Cody, anybody that's kind of within reach there back, you know, the five or six or seven you still to build something you walked out with a big you know print under your arm and a set of documents builders exchange and a couple other digital companies were just kind of coming out at that point.
00;50;27;20 - 00;50;52;16
Speaker 4
So, you know, my job was to scare up some prints and there wasn't a ton of work back then, especially for somebody new. But it kind of showed me some things that were not to say wrong in the industry, but things that just hadn't evolved yet. Sure. Anyways, did the hustle on lunches finally landed a great job with ACF through Vander Cody for Newberry Place, which is a co-housing over in Grand Rapids.
00;50;52;16 - 00;50;58;06
Speaker 4
And I think your contract was 160 grand, maybe. And wow, look, I took a chance on us. I'm guessing we were dirt long. Is that.
00;50;58;06 - 00;51;00;23
Speaker 3
Your first year and your.
00;51;00;23 - 00;51;04;27
Speaker 4
First six figure where you get the contract A hard and you're like, okay, what.
00;51;04;27 - 00;51;06;23
Speaker 3
Have you made? We made it you here?
00;51;06;27 - 00;51;09;09
Speaker 2
And how many guys do you have? At that point.
00;51;09;11 - 00;51;30;29
Speaker 4
My father had quit and then we had two or three kind of laid off guys for the 1099 games that bounced around. I think we had one full time guy, Jared at that point. But the economy for plumbing, by the time we get to the Newberry level, which is the 0708, it was junk. You know, an economy, obviously, as you know, was terrible.
00;51;31;01 - 00;51;50;14
Speaker 4
But that helped us. Now explain a little bit about that. But that's kind of how we got the sales start. And what would happen is email really helped us a ton on day one. But what I noticed was communication was terrible. The construction industry back on this road happened. We'll see. Bill on the plumbing company. Bob is a general contractor.
00;51;50;17 - 00;52;09;28
Speaker 4
Bob calls Bill in the morning. Bill is off getting the crew started getting a cup of coffee. Something is a message for Bill. Bill comes back at lunch, checks his messages, and then calls Bob back. Bob's at a walk through for something else. Bob calls Bill back at 3:00 and nothing got done the whole day. Our communication was just terrible.
00;52;10;05 - 00;52;36;08
Speaker 4
I remember guys saying, You can email me, but I respond to emails on Saturdays. He'd email me those mornings and what do you mean? Yeah. So one of our sales pitches was we will answer email within 30 minutes. so I had two screens, foremost a screen and a formal screen. So working from us all day long and then as I due to email came in on my breaks, I'd call Eric and you know, Hey, we bet on this.
00;52;36;08 - 00;52;42;18
Speaker 4
Hey, one of these toilets showing up, whatever this might be, and we'll email back. This was back in the DHC plumbing at Gmail.
00;52;42;18 - 00;52;55;12
Speaker 3
I mean, imagine how much like how much more business gets done because of email, Like how much the economic multiplier of that would be like applied to society. Just because of email.
00;52;55;14 - 00;52;58;28
Speaker 4
You know, emails help every industry except for commercial real estate.
00;52;59;00 - 00;53;01;00
Speaker 5
Yeah, we'll talk about that, Doug.
00;53;01;03 - 00;53;22;18
Speaker 4
Only grievances when we got the real estate. Okay, so email thing helps get some traction. Doesn't help on day one because you still had the barbs in the bills that weren't doing email doing email on Saturday mornings. Well, once next generation hit because we're only getting started, we're young twenties. Eric is probably 23, which puts me at 20, almost 25.
00;53;22;21 - 00;53;35;12
Speaker 4
So we're still young. But once the Bills nabobs are retiring and the guys our age, so the late twenties started getting promoted. They weren't putting up with the you know, I left you you love me a voice mail on Tuesday. What do you need? It's Thursday afternoon.
00;53;35;13 - 00;53;36;01
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00;53;36;04 - 00;53;53;04
Speaker 4
We're done. Gone like that opportunity was going to give you is past. And that's where we were able to step in with a little bit of the fresh new look at communication. And I mean, there's still a ton of hustle there were still finding the right people. But I would go around and every plumbers looking for a job back then.
00;53;53;06 - 00;54;07;27
Speaker 4
So I would go to the company will call ABC Plumbing and they had 20 employees, but only four were working, 16 were laid off. Instead of going into to 16, I would hire the four that were working. I knew they were the best ones out. So kind of went around and, you know, kind of like, you know, the A-Team.
00;54;07;27 - 00;54;29;08
Speaker 4
You go around, you pick a couple of great guys who are good at different things from all around the area. And then word of mouth after that, you treat people right and give good benefits. We never really again, we don't have titles or anything there. There is awesome. I got great memories of, you know, back when one of the plumbers needed a truck for the day and then he would stop at the shop, drop off his old Buick, and he'd take my truck for the day.
00;54;29;08 - 00;54;38;17
Speaker 4
I'd ride around his old Buick all day long, You know, doing go to the post office or get in the mail or running errands that had to be run and just that it was normal.
00;54;38;19 - 00;54;57;25
Speaker 3
And you guys growing like, are you hiring and growing faster? Like, are you ahead of what you needed as far as work? Like, are you are you pushing that harder? You're like, I'm going to hire these four guys because I know we're going to need them in six months, but not today. Are you? Would you say it's more was more of a conservative growth?
00;54;57;25 - 00;55;04;21
Speaker 3
I don't know if those are the right words or it's the hiring per job type thing and construction.
00;55;04;24 - 00;55;05;03
Speaker 4
These are.