Your Therapist Needs Therapy 40 - Nonordinary Therapy with Amber Kerby

Jeremy is joined this week by the fabulous Amber Kerby. Jeremy and Amber talk about plain ol’ ordinary therapy, and how and why we as professionals expand our approaches once we’ve spent more time in the field. Nonordinary therapies Jeremy and Amber discuss are Ketamine Assisted Therapy, Internal Family Systems, and Psychedelic Integration, along with our mutual starting point of systems therapy. It’s a great chat that covers a lot of ground!

To learn more about Amber and her practice, head over to amberkerby.com, or follow her on Instagram at nonordinary.therapy. In addition to therapy services, Amber offers coaching and consultation, along with running KAP workshops for mental health professionals. 

Jeremy has all his practice info over at Wellness with Jer, and you can follow him on youtube or Instagram. And to support the show, you can now pick up some merch! Shirts, mugs, fanny packs!?!?! Check that sweet swag out! And to support the show for free, give us a review, share, or subscribe!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Amber Kerby (2024-01-25 10:03 GMT-6) - Transcript

Attendees

Amber Kerby, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: Hello, and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy the podcast where mental health professionals talk about their own mental health Journeys and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field today. I am joined by another licensed marriage of family. Theist Kerby Amber. Thanks for joining me.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Super stoked to talk to you today. We have a bunch of different topics. We can go over but I always start in the same place, which is just how did you get into the mental health field? What was it that Drew you to this work?

Amber Kerby: Yeah, I've been reflecting on that because I feel like my stories shifted a little bit over the years because my practice has shifted. But I think initially what really drew me in with some work that I was doing already with a lot of families. A lot of teens actually was a youth pastor for a moment in my life and I found myself constantly in the same position of being a space holder and a listener for all these teens and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Amber Kerby: then knowing whoa your parents need to know about this can we have more of these discussions and then it just kind of came to this point in my life where it was an organic pivoting point. And my lovely husband was actually the one who said listen, you need to continue to go to school for this. This is really good what you're doing. You're passionate about it. So let's build on it. So I went back and got my Master's Degree and built a practice really working with primarily teens and kids and family. It's initially.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: I always loved the systems understanding that we're not on an island. And so it really is important to constantly bring in Social connection and relationships that all times in therapy.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I love having therapist the longer we've been in it and You accumulate kind of these different tools and these different ways of practicing going back to school is. A thing I think we say in society, but it's like a jumping off point. It is not its own process. You know what you get.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: From your Masters is the first two sessions, …

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: how to do an intake and a diagnosis and then when you get in the actual field, it's like wait, what else do I do?

Amber Kerby: Yeah, what?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, which is kind of I think where you and I connected in the first place. I found your Instagram and non-ordinary therapy jumped out to me, which is a lovely handle but kind of doing different things for trauma and working with people with ketamine assisted therapy and all this stuff. So kind of once you got into that counseling field, that's systemic lens. What was it? That was like, I need to go get more training or…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I need to go focus on this thing kind of walk us through that Journey.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, I think it was a combination of really a perfect storm of personal and professional shifts happening at the specific time in my life. Where I had moved I was doing a lot via Telehealth. That was a new mom. There was just so many things happening where I knew things in my practice had to shift. And I was becoming more and more exposed to this idea of ketamine assisted therapy and psychedelic assisted therapy and how effective it was and really seeing things roll out of my personal life with people close to me really really witnessing the amount of changes that can happen. So as a practitioner, it just feels like I'm doing a

Amber Kerby: This to my clients if I know that there's something else out there that can be really effective but I don't know anything about it or I can't provide it so that led me down this whole path of what is happening with all of these non-ordinary therapies? And how do I really become not more knowledgeable and ultimately trained because it just became incredibly relevant with everything that I was doing that like this.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: This is the perfect point to say we're going to do something different and it might feel a little radical. I know it's not for everyone the Midwest can be a tricky place to roll this thing out and yet I've also found so many

Amber Kerby: So many contacts so many networks where people are ready and they're curious and they want to support it. So that really, opened up my eyes to see more and more and especially with clients who I felt like I was kind of hitting a wall with it then years we're talking about this trauma. We're talking about the same things over and over and their ability to reduce symptoms and to really achieve some sort of sustainable change was just grueling for all of us and…

00:05:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: so to be able to introduce something that could work for them and really help them to get unstack. And change the narrative with changing for me and for so many clients thinking. my god. I've been doing this for 10 years and now it's all different now. It's all different. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you talk about a move thrown in there and…

Jeremy Schumacher: then having kids throw in there, which is the topic that I like to talk about…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: because it's one of those things that I think. Maybe this is what you mean by ordinary therapy and doing non-ordinary therapy, but I do think there's this perception that therapist therapist.

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think I love to talk about and normalize we have kids before I hit record.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: My toddler wandered down the stairs here. that's a very real experience that our clients deal with and normalizing some of that that we as professionals have that stuff too moving is a real life stressor that most people experience that upends your life.

Amber Kerby: Okay. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And so get into this point…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: where right it's not therapist.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, it feels so much like a co-creation. I mean the idea that I think a lot of times we are taught in our master's level programs about, not disclosing personal information really trying to be more of that blank slate. So to speak isn't always helpful with a lot of our clients so showing up as humans with other humans is an incredible therapeutic tool right there for everyone involved and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: I like to laugh with my clients who are pursuing ketamine assisted psychedelic assisted therapy. And in other legal parts of the US that really my first ego death was becoming a mom. It had nothing to do with psychedelics or medication, but it really is this notion that we can normalize the non-ordinary with the ordinary the fact that these Life Changes these transformational changes can occur in so many different ways and we can bring into therapy and really talk about what's happening with people when we have these huge movements whether it's addition a family or moves or grief work because of loss and Trauma just an incredible amount of content can come out of that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I'm always curious kind of what I think I'm building a reputation of complaining about grad school. But …

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what did your program prepare you for around this stuff? how much of this was like,…

Amber Kerby: 

Jeremy Schumacher: I got into the field and then was like, I don't have enough Tools in my tool kit to work with us.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, yeah, I love hate with the grad school. I totally get why it's there and what it's doing and the system itself is, it's got as complications like every other system. We as humans have put together. So I think what I can really credit my grad school experience for is helping me to develop my platform as a therapist needs therapy is about understanding even how to start managing a private practice, which I know not all grad schools. Do I was very lucky to be exposed to a lot of people who built that in to our discussions.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Amber Kerby: how to be a standalone therapist.

Amber Kerby: But what I really found myself facing was this idea of if I'm gonna engage in non-ordinary therapy, I'm gonna need some different tools. So I love that. I had that Foundation of okay, I can be a therapist. Train, it's not CBT.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: It's not systemic approach. It does look very different when I'm engaging with clients in catamina assisted therapy. So I engaged in a year-long program to really help me figure out what that Nuance was where to bring in this therapeutic base that I've already got and then how to show up in ways that we don't always focus on as therapist.

00:10:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. What is I'm gonna say maybe a hot take and I would love to get your opinion on it. I always felt like psychology. The field itself was working so hard to present itself as a hard science that there was almost as overcompensating of We need to show up as a science.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: and I had nothing to do with clients that had everything to do I think with Academia and then It wasn't until I got my internship or somebody was like this is an art like how we interact with these people who come into our room and want help is in art and the Science Matters not missing that.

Amber Kerby: And yeah. Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that goes back to then.

Jeremy Schumacher: Some of the ways that psychedelics work criminalized in the United States and the history of those things that had nothing to do with science, but probably more to do with politics and racism and…

Amber Kerby: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: getting to a point where we're starting to slowly fickle some research around psychedelics. I'm in Wisconsin. you're in Iowa s these midwest states where weeds not even legally.

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: Our big research institution matters UW Madison in Wisconsin is studying psilocybin. So there's this weird juxtaposition of Science Matters and…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's an artwork to do therapy and to build relationship with people and we're trying to navigate all the Systemic levels of society that have made things like psychedelics or some of these indigenous or natural forms of healing almost Criminal.

Jeremy Schumacher: In some cases that then we're trying to say no, let's get back to some of the science and study this stuff and see how it can be helpful.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, yeah, you headed on the head really that the complexity of what this field is really about. It has to be a marriage between science and art I think it was young that said something to the effect of all the theories, but when you're with another human just be another human. And in that is, just Paramount to what it means to be a therapist.

Amber Kerby: s

Amber Kerby: Because no other human is walking in my office yeah, I understand. This is how the theory is supposed to roll out and I'll just stick to that plan that is not ever how it works because humans are messy and therapy as Nazi so being able to always, hold both of these as our truths but also realize that there's this flexibility and I feel like that's kind of how we're moving with this idea of psychedelic assisted therapy where we're really trying to feel out where that flexibility is, give us enough science to really back up the safety and efficacy of this kind of treatment and then also allow for so much navigation digen with where we can really welcome in.

Amber Kerby: Anywhere from the medical model because that's going to make sense people to the ceremonial model because that's going to make sense to people ultimately knowing this is about healing and that's going to look different for everyone.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and it's Kind of mirroring your story when I started out I was raised fundamentalist And so I worked at a Christian counseling place was the first place that I got a job at and as I kind of deconstructed and moved away from the church, I got my specialty in religious trauma and I had all these clients coming to me like wanting to do psychedelics or they already had a retreat plan or their friend out of state had mushrooms that they wanted …

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I think one of the things that goes along with this is the wealth of knowledge people have with the internet where now it's not a Freudian or a young or even Carl Rogers or some of those older experts had this knowledge. Now, everyone has access to the knowledge. And how do we as professionals help guide people through kind of the changing Seas of this is what we know with research and this is what we know about healing. What does that look like for your life specifically?

Amber Kerby: Yeah, and that's a piece that I'm so passionate about this idea that as therapist a resource in a space for our clients to start even discovering what that's going to mean for them. I don't think every therapist.

00:15:00

Amber Kerby: This is a therapy psychedelic assisted therapy. And that's totally okay, but I think it's so essential that we're aware that this is emerging and that we're doing our own due diligence in the research and understanding. This is what's happening. Here's the risk because all of that can be a part of the conversation with our clients, especially around harm reduction, if I know a client's going to go hang out with a friend this weekend and engage in some sort of use. I kind of want to know that and I want this to be a safe space for them to disclose that to explore that and can we position them in a way that that's gonna be more beneficial than harmful in and I think that's a huge piece that we're missing. I can definitely speak to my area to the Midwest. We're not as aware of some of these emerging treatments. It can be very tricky to even talk about it here. So, I understand why some clinicians

Amber Kerby: not really digging in and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: they're not asking the question because they maybe just don't feel like they've got enough to back up some sort of opinion other than just what we were raised with right the kid of the Dare program drugs are bad stay away from that when we're

Jeremy Schumacher: which we have research that says that program failed horribly.

Amber Kerby: Yes, I laugh every time they still put it in the paper these kids graduated from the Dare program. I'm like, okay, why are we still doing this? this is not everything.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. You bring up an interesting point that I wanted to ask you about what is because you do some trainings for therapist.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Overwhelmingly positive even from the people who have come to maybe a talk that I've had very skeptical. It doesn't mean that they've totally changed their mind which is very okay, but the fact that they were there and they were open enough to receive some different information in it. Really I think Spurs people on to just doing more research and digging into what's actually out there. I've been really really lucky that the workshops that I've been hosting. Are generally people who aren't coming in with a lot of skepticism. Anyway, they're coming in with a lot of openness and curiosity many of the people who are coming in for the workshops are also people who are saying, all right. I've got clients in ketamine clinics right now, and I don't know how to talk about this. I don't know…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: how to work with this. Far as integration goes, how do I help them? Really figure out what this is. So that's a huge part of my trainings as well. Just trying to equip therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Right Yeah, and I think that. speaks well to clients, who are not all of them, but a lot of them are doing a lot of their research and are trying to figure this out because again once I started advertising as a religious trauma therapist needs therapy version of ceremony or…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: ritual or some sort of Substance enhanced experience and…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: there was one of those things where kind of what you're talking about. as a clinician was like I'm aware of this that it exists, but I'm not trained in how to help my clients kind of navigate it and so

Jeremy Schumacher: I think that's good. But also existed in the midwest. I think it is rare. I think I'm still battling. Sometimes just the stigma of coming to therapy let alone.

Amber Kerby: talking about anything outside the realm of what we call normal here. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: right right and the normal put it in quotes for the people who are just listening the normal is Arbitrary it's based off of a bizarre system of what the DSM was designed to be that insurance companies took it over and it's a very strange. in itself unscientific system of what we've kind of landed as this is okay treatment, and this is not

00:20:00

Amber Kerby: Yes. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And as a lmft, maybe you can relate part of the reason I started my own practice. It's just frustration with dealing with insurance companies because doing just couples therapy. nothing non-ordinary about that other than there's two people in the room.

Amber Kerby: a couple yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: was just a nightmare to get more than eight sessions and I would love to say I'm that good of a therapist n

Amber Kerby: Yeah, I think that was an eye-opening and super frustrating moment in my own grad school and initially starting out phase where in the DSM. We've got all these codes specifically for couples therapy and relational issues and it turns out none of those are ever reimburs Companies. So now we have to play this weird game in order to really support our clients. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: every couple I had had an adjustment disorder shockingly.

Amber Kerby: yes, pretty much every human. I meet has an adjustment disorder.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and for those non therapist the DSM is our state a diagnostic manual. Which again isn't what it was designed to be it was supposed to just be research tool but that's…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what reinsurance insurance companies use to reimburse therapist needs therapy. I got my Master's in postgrad back to back and kind of just learned how to do it systemically, but right I was taught. Yes. There's a V Code ignore it. It doesn't matter You can't get paid using that. So here's how you're going to diagnose. You're going to start here and then build anything else from there, and it was so

Jeremy Schumacher: I speak very highly of my education like my trainers and my supervisors. They taught me how to use a broken system but that didn't address the broken system.

Amber Kerby: Yes. And I think that's skill too has followed me into what I'm doing now because Academy assisted therapy is not covered under insurance. So there's this whole

Amber Kerby: System that we have supposedly built to really support our clients because most people can't pay out of pocket for long-term services and yet we really have to pinpoint. What's the legal and ethical way? To provide the services and be able to utilize benefits within this broken system that we have. So, another huge part of the talks the trainings that I provide is having these conversations with other clinicians.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Amber Kerby: I'm aware that this is what we have to work with. So, how do we do that? And how do we continue kind of pushing this? And in a way that encourages the system to make changes at some point in the next million years,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: but also really gets this out, to our community because these are viable options for so many people looking for something that works and to have a price tag be an obstacle is incredibly frustrating.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, and it puts us as providers not that worth the victims in it, but it does put us in a ethical quandary like I'm somebody who doesn't take insurance at all. And I don't love that and…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: in that intersectionality piece of I have two small children. My wife is stay at home mom because Child Care is expensive and it's all these moving Parts where it's like right? I'm not in this to get rich and also I exist under capitalism as well and navigating. That broken system.

Amber Kerby: that's

Amber Kerby: Mm- Yeah. Yeah, really? And yeah really with this kind of idea of a fair exchange as well, and I have a lot of always fun conversations with social workers about these kinds of topics because there is …

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Amber Kerby: there is a difference between licensure and training and the different aspects that we're really getting into when we're providing these services but constantly having this discussion of is this a fair exchange, as a professional. How are you feeling in all of this? How are you utilizing the system that we do have? How are you operating under capitalism? Are you getting your bills paid and are we also providing services in a way that show the value and begin to kind of create some friction…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

00:25:00

Amber Kerby: because without that friction no one's going to change. So we really do have to kind of find that edge and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: that edge is going to be moving constantly.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think starting out an agency work and seeing some of that stuff like there were plenty of therapist. I was still clients.

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't want to have lifers with a lot of love and space for all of my clients. I don't want to see them for multiple years. Sometimes there are things traumas one of those variables one of those X factors that might make things take longer…

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: but not. for life

Amber Kerby: Yeah. Yeah, I don't feel like I'm doing my job. If I'm being a client and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Amber Kerby: we're talking about the same thing, I'm utilizing the same interventions over and over if it's not working if our relationship isn't working then I really want to get them to a place where something will work and it's okay…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: if it's not with me, perhaps we need to have a conversation with someone else. Maybe there's a different intervention or a different modality to try. Yeah. I'm not in this to have the same conversations about what was for dinner. And what's up with Mom and law and I don't want to do that over and over again.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Amber Kerby: It's funny. I'm trying to work myself out of a job constantly.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's part of my informed consent. That's why I'm laughing when you say that that's how I introduce the informed consent not how I introduce it is a piece of my informed consent in that my goal is to make myself not need it like that's How I approach this process.

Amber Kerby: Yes, yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: A little bit of a left turn. You also do internal family systems. Which is super trendy right now.

Amber Kerby: I do.

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't somebody was telling me a younger therapist needs therapy that ifs is a big deal, but I think it's getting there but certainly among providers like this is a big deal.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Can you tell us a little bit about kind of how you got into ifs how you're exposed to it and what you did to do all of that training and…

Amber Kerby: I did it all in one shot.

Jeremy Schumacher: certification, too.

Amber Kerby: So I honestly blanked out an entire year of my life. I have no idea what was happening. I was just learning a lot. I assume people got fed and got to places where they needed to be, but I was hold up really learning. for me I think it was really before I started doing too much of my training and research with psychedelic assisted therapy, but it was more of a personal interest because it spoke my language ifs internal family systems heck. Yes. I love all of that especially during the time…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: where I was doing a lot of my own introspective work and really trying to figure things out in a completely different way. So it was through a personal experience with ifs that just totally lit up that whole I see where this is going which is so interesting because it's not at all how I used to work with any of my clients. In fact, I remember learning about ifs and grad school and I thought this is a little kooky. I'm gonna memorize…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure. Yeah.

Amber Kerby: what I have to memorize but I'm not using this. And then it finally hit for me that this was super effective. And so of course, it just all started coming together with my training as well and all the research was saying, turns out a modality like ifs is a perfect complement to what's happening in psychedelic assisted therapy and ketaministed therapy. So I thought I'll just throw my hat in this whole Lottery to try to get trains and I was one of the lucky ones that got accepted in my first round of the lottery.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Amber Kerby: So apologies to all of you've been waiting for years to get in. I know so I did all of that at once. And absolutely love it and I just finished up my level two actually with the couples version of internal family systems ifio or intimacy from the inside out. So it's pretty much all I do right now and I count that as a non-ordinary therapy because the work that we're doing with the internal systems feels very non-ordinary. It's not a top-down approach. I'm really encouraging people to go within their own system and talk more and more about the things that we don't talk about in a way that just normalizes it and creates this connection internally and in a relationship as well when I've got a couple or a group in the room.

00:30:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, so it was an incredibly transformational year when I just don't head first into all the trainings and restructured my entire practice.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you said a little earlier you had some exposure in grad school to the business side of things which you highlighted is a rarity. I don't know this episode 401.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not sure but I interviewing a lot of therapist. Of figuring out the business stuff on the Fly and it's a kind of learning as you go type thing because for a lot of training programs.

Amber Kerby: Okay, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: There's gonna go into agency work like that is the way it is taught and that's the expectation. So what was that owning your own practice and…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: then kind of being like now I'm switching how I'm doing things. Can you talk a little bit about the business side of that?

Amber Kerby: And I want to give a shout out to the school. I went through Capella University, which is an accredited online school. And I did it at a time that online school was not a cool thing. So it's kind of funny.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Amber Kerby: I'm like I did there's a lot of non-ordinary happening in my whole path here, but I think it was through that. I mean so many of the instructors in my program, we're currently active therapist a lot in private practice or with organizations doing research versus some of the typical Academia where you have professors, but they're not currently shout out to Capella for really getting me in contact with faculty where I could say right off the bat I'm not going in to all of these other organizations. I'm going in for private practice and then these people could really offer a lot of resources.

Amber Kerby: So the business side of things, yeah. I still had to pick up a lot on the Fly. Especially switching States figuring out licensure…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: where my business needs to be all the different business structures. that's a fun game to play and it felt kind of risky at the time as well knowing that I was going to switch. How I practice kind of in the middle of covid and everything else that was happening in a state…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: where I really didn't know if it was gonna take off because I was having a really difficult time even having conversations with medical providers about catapine. So I thought if this is happening on the medical level and on the therapeutic level, what's the community kind of And do I need to move my practice an hour away just in case what's really going to go down?

Amber Kerby: But honestly the initial feedback and interest that I had was incredibly encouraging and it really helped that transition to feel more comfortable. still risk. There was still a lot of conversations with current clients about, even switching from the way. I was working with them to utilize more ifs and what that can sound like and what that can look like and being able to connect people, with other providers who Right off the bat like that doesn't feel right for me. And I really want to pursue this. So there's of course a lot of prep work in that. But I just knew for me that I couldn't in good conscious sit there.

Amber Kerby: And do the same thing with a client that just didn't resonate with me it doesn't feel good for me.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Amber Kerby: It doesn't feel good for them. It's not going to be helpful overall. So it really was essential that I began making those shifts and allowing a lot of space and time for that. It's not like I just popped in a session. I was like, okay so you're used to this but now we're going to talk about the parts of you wait, what happened here? A lot of it was just very organic the way that I talked and the way that we were kind of able to infuse so much of it into the conversations. We're already having, even now last week. I was meeting with the client that I've had for a bit and we haven't done a lot of explicit ifs work but yet our conversation they were really talking about this part of me and then that part of me and for anyone…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: who knows ifs that is very much the language we use. So it was just kind of a cool moment to really see how Everything had shifted in this nice organic way and they were finding it beneficial. They were still making progress and it was still kind of in their realm of comfort as well.

00:35:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, anything I mean as educated as clients, I think are coming in about mental health in general. They're not. Aware if we're doing DBT or act or I do collaborative language therapy, which most Jargon I think is lost in them.

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: But definitely they pick up on how we as providers and helpers are showing up authentically or not. And you come from a background working with a lot of teens.

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: I have a specialty in sports performance and work with college students for many years while I was in higher ed doing mental health and Said for years teens have a really good BS radar like you can't show up and…

Amber Kerby: Absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: lie to them or tell them something that you don't buy into either.

Amber Kerby: Right, Yeah, and I'm a terrible liar. I can't do it we laugh about it all the time in my house. I'm like just yeah, it's not gonna happen. So if I have a client just saying, hey, is there more that can help me? Yes. Yes, there is. Here's what I know and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Amber Kerby: I want to share that. Yeah, so I think overall it's incredibly important that we as clinicians remember.

Amber Kerby: That we're just as an important part as a human in our own authenticities showing up with other people because it's not the theory it's not the recipe that's going to produce …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: you just follow the science it will end up, Not always the case.

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah, if it was that easy, we would not have careers in the first place. I work with a lot of clients…

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: who have seen other therapist.

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I get a lot of feedback like you are much more involved than the other therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Needs therapy or nature-informed therapy and all these different modalities that we are not taught in grad school and…

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: and the more authentic we as providers are and find these Avenues to practice in a way that is genuine to us. The more benefit it is to our clients and there's multiple Mental health crises going on right now. And so there are not enough providers for the people…

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: who need help and so it's I think moving away from that scarcity mindset and that competitive capitalistic mindset that we're competing for clients. the people are there. It's a matter of finding the people who will mesh well with us and the way we want to practice.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, and I think too it opens up so many different conversations among professionals about ethical guidelines, they're really have been a lot of interesting. Avenues around dual relationships and self-disclosure and all of these hard lines that were generally taught in grad school, don't do any of that stay away from all of it. And then it turns out in practice. There's actually a different flow that can happen.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Amber Kerby: It can happen among practitioners. So I have a ton of respect for people who say no, these are my lines they're over here. They're hard and fast and I will not go over those. That's great. That's authentic to them. That's how they want to practice. It feels good for them and they'll work really well with a certain type of client and then of course, I know other practitioners who are like, there's a little bit more Nuance here and here's kind of how I allow this and here's the safety protocol here and I want to make sure that that's backed up there and they're going to mesh well with other clients so that whole idea too of scarcity and competition.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: When as clinicians really settle into who we are how we practice where our lines are that's going to automatically bring in the type of people that we're going to work well with and I don't need to be competing with someone who's on the other end of the spectrum doing something totally different.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: I'll send people over there you do that I don't want to do that.

Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Here's what I do. So people who are looking for that will find me and they're really is just an incredible amount of opportunity for clinicians to find these different, niches and really they're their own voice and their own practice and offer that in a way that's going to be so much more effective for clients in their own healing.

00:40:00

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and time and some of the business piece like your clients get more self-selective I have some type A people on my caseload because they do couples therapy. But usually it's the not type A person…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who picks me because that's a parent if you go on my socials or you go on my website, I'm not the person who's doing a worksheet every session. I have a workbook in my office.

Amber Kerby: right

Jeremy Schumacher: That I referred to sometimes but it's one of those things really great.

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Jeremy Schumacher: I want a client who's not looking for that and a client who doesn't want that. I want them to be able to find me as opposed to I think that scarcity mindsetter that agency mindset of we need to serve everyone who walks through the door. Which I think ends up being a disservice if we don't have a good fit or somebody who scope of practice really addresses that need that that client has.

Amber Kerby: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, and that was definitely a big piece, of my own process as a new therapist. and…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: then really, even noticing what was on my website and beginning to even reduce so much of the wording now even now I'm still going through a lot of content and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: ensuring my voice is this really how I practice or is this the old language where it's like, yep, I just need clients. So please come in with whatever you have and I can help you and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: really leaning on that. Confidence that I'm trained this is effective. It's authentic for me and This is what I'm saying. Yes to knowing that. I have a ton of referrals for anyone who's just searching. They're like, I don't know. I found your name, but that doesn't seem like an approach. I want to use great. here's five other people. Who may be able to help you…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: but I think it's just a big piece too for upcoming new therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: And that's…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. and…

Amber Kerby: what I'm going to say.

Jeremy Schumacher: love the non-ordinary moniker because again, think it's all on a spectrum. So when I took those trainings on opening a business on Private Practice stuff because I had no business background. I have ADHD a lot of that stuff is super neurotypical and…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: was not helpful for me and wasn't what I ended up doing is not the way my website looks it's not how I do my marketing and so having this idea of hey There's a constructed way of doing this that Society has said this is normal, but there's other options like there's things that we can do and…

Amber Kerby: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: there's ways that we can build it so that it will take care of itself.

Jeremy Schumacher: And I think that's really freeing it took me even though I had that knowledge and I would say that stuff to clients to break some of that formal training on don't give your clients cell phone number and all this other stuff of right. I've been doing this for years. I know that doesn't matter. I'm gonna show up the way that I want to show up.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, and I think too kind of normalizing this idea of non-ordinary, really seeing the system and the treatment protocol for what we have it's effective up to 50% of people maybe right depending on…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: which research you're looking at. So knowing that our model is a good Start and it can be super helpful for a lot of people but it's not the only answer. So, those…

Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah.

Amber Kerby: who treatment resistant depression. my goodness. They're wondering what on Earth is wrong with them that these 12 medications and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: these 20 therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: needs

00:45:00

Amber Kerby: yeah.

Amber Kerby: More yeah in the fact too that our system is really built on symptom alleviation or symptom reduction versus true healing so I'm not opposed to my client saying my gosh, I need some extra help with these symptoms so I can continue doing this work. Okay, let's do that. But let's really put this in a framework where these kinds of, strategies are here to help you but it's not here to just solve the problem and make it all go away. So if you want to go throughout, life numb and disconnected. I have a great strategy for you, but it turns out most humans actually want more and…

Jeremy Schumacher: That social Norm that you go and…

Amber Kerby: they want something different. Yeah, so I think it's just so important that we are continuing to have those conversations about the models that we have…

Jeremy Schumacher: get an antidepressant which those of us who are only about 30% effective. That the rate of a placebo and…

Amber Kerby: what it's really there for…

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not dismissing that they work for some people and…

Amber Kerby: what these, models and…

Jeremy Schumacher: just highlighting that they work for less people than you're prescribing physician probably pretends they do.

Amber Kerby: what these medications are there for and saying hey, this is okay. They fit here And we have other options turns out like we have to do some work,…

Jeremy Schumacher: and normalizing that because I do think where that lands is on the client shoulders that they've done something wrong or…

Amber Kerby: too. To get to…

Jeremy Schumacher: they're extra broken or…

Amber Kerby: where we want.

Jeremy Schumacher: bad or in the wrong somehow when it's like no this system is designed and has been researched permanently by white men and so there's a lot of people that we haven't covered in that so here are some other options

Amber Kerby: So I had this crazy notion a couple years ago that I was going to do this whole work life balance thing where I would have these set hours of work time that happened to mirror when my kiddos in school. So when we're done with school,…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: we're done with work and we are together as a family and Putting a lot of boundaries in place really for me to not cross over my own boundaries was essential.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: And that's really freed me up to.

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Amber Kerby: Really cultivate this balance in my own system of what it means to be a therapist needs.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: And I think joy and self-care is tied greatly to play my kiddos still pretty young. And so she's always challenging me to get into the imagination the creativity the flexibility and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…

Amber Kerby: the play which is so good for me and…

Jeremy Schumacher: and that segue is nicely into my next question is…

Amber Kerby: so hard some days. I have been also cultivating the practice around yoga that I've just found incredibly supportive and…

Jeremy Schumacher: what is your work look like? How do you kind of take care of yourself when you're not with clients or in between sessions? What does self-care look like?

Amber Kerby: so many ways not only through classes and…

Jeremy Schumacher: What does cultivate enjoy look like? What do you kind of do to take care of yourself?

Amber Kerby: Community but also just for me personally having that connection between the mind and the body it can feel, very spiritually supportive as well, which I enjoy so I think really for the most part it's this idea that I work when I work and then I live the rest of the time and we're not trying to pack our life full love all kinds of extracurriculars all kinds of should really trying to hold this space for more of an organic flow in our life and building connections building Community, which of course is difficult. And just incredibly necessary.

Amber Kerby: right

Amber Kerby: lovely

00:50:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Of Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I think too is a starting clinician.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: I wasn't great at self-care.

Jeremy Schumacher: that's also lovely and…

Amber Kerby: They usually was like emergency self-care when you're like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: and I think for the therapist needs therapy Prioritizing that I think when I was a young therapist a good job of self-care.

Amber Kerby: I am really not. Okay. I'm gonna have to take them time or make sure I do, a little bit of this and that to kind of get my tank back up to full but I think too, it really is for me now more of a practice a daily awareness of …

Jeremy Schumacher: But I didn't have kids yet, they were aspects of it that were easier when I was a young clinician.

Amber Kerby: okay, how am I doing today? What's going on?

Jeremy Schumacher: I worked across the street from a gym.

Amber Kerby: What do I really need?

Jeremy Schumacher: I took three hours three times a week to go to the gym in the middle of my day,…

Amber Kerby: Because I'm also the type of Personality that will have kind of these set things that I would do in quotations for self-care,…

Jeremy Schumacher: which was And also super unsustainable for when you have kids and…

Amber Kerby: but it's not always…

Jeremy Schumacher: you do some other things.

Amber Kerby: what I wanted to do or…

Jeremy Schumacher: So I think I had this idea of self-care…

Amber Kerby: what I actually needed. So I'm really working on creating that space too in my life…

Jeremy Schumacher: but I didn't have kind of what you're talking about and what I have now of living of here's your set schedule for work and…

Amber Kerby: where I can Okay, today's the day I actually have more energy and I'm feeling okay and…

Jeremy Schumacher: work is not the purpose of your life work is It means to an end and…

Amber Kerby: I'm gonna get this done and I don't have to pour as much into Cover else it may be and…

Jeremy Schumacher: it's nice that you have work that is Meaningful and…

Amber Kerby: then also those days are those weeks…

Jeremy Schumacher: helps people…

Amber Kerby: where it's like I am running ragged.

Jeremy Schumacher: but also it's to pay your bills. And so…

Amber Kerby: I'm too thin.

Jeremy Schumacher: what are you doing outside of work?

Amber Kerby: I'm going to need some extra time for some care and…

Jeremy Schumacher: And how do we make that time and…

Amber Kerby: some speeds for rest and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Healing healthy fun.

Amber Kerby: really knowing what's in my toolbox for that…

Jeremy Schumacher: I talk about self-care is the bare minimum not the goal and…

Amber Kerby: because I think too self-care just becomes another thing on our to-do list and…

Jeremy Schumacher: that like cultivating joy and having those spaces in our life are

Amber Kerby: it's not actually serving the purpose that it should serve.

Jeremy Schumacher: just as if not more important.

Amber Kerby: So being aware. Of what that's like even for me has been really really important.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Amber Kerby: Yes.

Amber Kerby: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Amber Kerby: Yeah, I camp out a little bit on social media. So that's at non-ordinary dot therapy. If you're looking on Facebook or Instagram. there's too many for me. To keep track of so those are my primary if you want to go to my website.

Jeremy Schumacher: Great.

Amber Kerby: You can either go to non-ordinary therapy.com or my full name Amber. Kerby.com. That's Kerby, but you'll find me type it into a search engine.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Amber Kerby: There's not too many of us out there practicing ketamine. This is a psychedelic assistant therap.

Jeremy Schumacher: I love that you bring that up.

Amber Kerby: Especially in Iowa.

Jeremy Schumacher: I see a number of either medical professionals or…

Amber Kerby: So those are probably the two primary ways to get connected.

Jeremy Schumacher: other mental health professionals in my practice and we talk a lot about intellectualizing yourself care, which is the thing that I can talk about…

Amber Kerby: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because I did it for years where it was that box to check instead of is this a experience for my body?

Amber Kerby: Great.

Jeremy Schumacher: Am I going through it and my feeling it or is it just I checked that box.

Amber Kerby: Thank you so much Jeremy for just giving space for these kinds of conversations and…

Jeremy Schumacher: So I'm good. And those are two different things.

Amber Kerby: for inviting me. I really enjoyed this.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, so we could go on for longer. There's so many things to dive into and talk about here Amber if people want to learn more about your practice if there's a therapist.

00:55:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Amber thanks so much for taking the time and talking today.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, awesome and to all our wonderful listeners. Thanks again for tuning in this week. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:54:05 👋