Your Therapist Needs Therapy
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 41 - Religious Trauma in the Workplace with Michelle Moseley
Jeremy is joined this week all the way from North Carolina by the delightful Michelle Moseley. Jeremy and Michelle discuss their own experiences with religious trauma, and the intersection of religion, patriarchy, and capitalism in the workplace. They also touch on issues such as body image concerns and the challenges of reconnecting mind and body after leaving high-control religious environments.
To learn more about Michelle and her work, you can check out her website and be sure to give her a follow on Instagram.
Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. We appreciate you taking the time to tune in, likes, shares, subscribing are all great ways to help us reach a wider audience, and we have some merch available now to spread the love even more!
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.
Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Michelle Moseley (2024-01-31 12:05 GMT-6) - Transcript
Attendees
Jeremy Schumacher, Michelle Moseley
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy podcast for two mental health professionals talk about their mental health journey and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher licensed marriage of family. Therapist Moseley Michelle. I didn't even double check. I'm a terrible podcast host. Did I get your last name, correct? …
Michelle Moseley: You did.
Jeremy Schumacher: Winging it here.
Michelle Moseley: You did great. So.
Jeremy Schumacher: Michelle thanks for joining me today.
Michelle Moseley: You're welcome. I'm so excited to be here with you and I have this opportunity to chat.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I love getting different people from around the country because I love other accents and I feel like midwesterners have the worst accent and you're just so nice like that East Coast accent is so pleasant to listen to
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, I am lifelong North Carolina, and I definitely have the accent.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's awesome. I always start with the same question, which is what got you into the mental health field.
Michelle Moseley: So when I graduated from college, I thought about going into the counseling field and then I just felt what at the time I would have said was a call to Ministry specifically working with college students. So I took a detour and did that.
Michelle Moseley: Are about 10 years and some stuff went down in that environment, which we might get in the rest of our discussion. But at almost the 10 year mark, it was just kind of like this is not working. This is not a good environment for me, but I still wanted to continue helping people and being able to support people and I wanted to get more skills and how can I do that outside of a religious context? So that idea of going back to graduate school pursuing counseling degree came back up and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: so in my mid 30s, I went back to graduate school and I have been in the field for about nine years now, so that was kind of my whining path.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we all kind of have a different winding path to get here. There's so much in that that makes me curious. I spent some time in higher ed at a Christian institution when I was still a good little Christian. So I think there's a lot to talk about there. But this idea it sounds like helping people was there consistently just working on figuring out what role or what structure that was going to take.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah. Yeah, I think that has been a big thing for me throughout of having some kind of way to support people to help them to do some type of teaching or something in that kind of role has always been there but there's been different paths that it has taken.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so I was a religious trauma specialist knowing that some overlap between the two of us. What was kind of that? Jeremy that's I would say a growing field. There are still a little limited number of professionals who advertise and specialize in this area. So, how'd you kind of end up in that specific corner of the mental health world?
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm, so I had my own experience of spiritual abuse and religious trauma. I did not have the words for it at the time that it was happening and I was seeing it therapist needs. And it really validated my own experience.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: Then fast forward a couple years went to grad school. I had no intentions of working with religious trauma because my own experience was still so fresh was like I want to I was stay away from that got out of grad school a couple years in I had someone at a client that actually came to me for something else…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: but it came up that part of their story was around some religious things some traumatic stuff that had happened and they just really felt comfortable because I understood the language I resonated with what they were saying, they didn't have to explain, just don't the end language of their experience and they ended up referring some other people to me because they're like, hey, she gets it like and it just kind of happened that I started.
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I was like, okay, I'm far enough in my journey that this is not affecting me in the same way that it would two three four years previously and I'm able to support these folks and help them find a healthier place for themselves. And so I always kind of joke.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Michelle Moseley: It's like the niche that found me.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and isn't that fascinating how clients in our own Journeys? I think a lot of people approach therapy as the therapist needs. Therapy go through just like everyone else shifts and changes kind of how we approach the clients that we're working with.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy Schumacher: 25 year old Jeremy started out at a Christian counseling place. And so yeah, if you would have told me. A decade ago that I'd be where I'm at now doing religious trauma therapy for people and the stuff like I've been like that doesn't make any sense. So
Michelle Moseley: Mm- Same here. I'll be like, not working with that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so yeah, the Specialties find us sometimes.
Jeremy Schumacher: rescue dog just wandered down with a squeaky ball and that's not helpful.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't think it's coming through you hear it.
Michelle Moseley: I heard that.
Jeremy Schumacher: I love you. Come here.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah spit it out. Thank you.
Jeremy Schumacher: This is all the stuff we'll cut. My media person knows my dogs. It's a local person. I work with and so I just write Moria is that I'm with my dog,…
Michelle Moseley: Here, okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: and she's dog mark
Jeremy Schumacher: All right. Let's reset here. so making sense the kind of your timeline here. You had kind of your own process your experience of Religious harm and then your own therapy and that was before going back to grad school or were those things kind of overlapped. Okay.
Michelle Moseley: That was before so I left full-time Ministry in 2013. and I
Michelle Moseley: That was in May of 2013 and then I started grad school in August of 2014. So I had about a year there that was not an overlap,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Michelle Moseley: but it was like working on my own process and even just coming to terms with the experiences that I had had.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. yeah,…
Michelle Moseley:
Jeremy Schumacher: and There's a convenient certainly I think in working with religious trauma knowing I mean, like you said your clients found you because you do the language. and it is very Culty it's the news, I grew up fundamentalists Evangelical there's a language that goes to it. I can talk Southern Baptist and I can talk, East Coast Baptist, but there's a specific.
Jeremy Schumacher: Midwestern Evangelical language that people know if they grew up in it and it sounds really weird if you didn't
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, yes, it does and I think for a lot of folks if you work with a therapist needs therapy feeling like you're providing an education. and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: also the therapist needs
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and there's so much in those languages like saying Purity culture is a small two-word term, but there's so much that goes into that if you're raised in a high control religion Purity culture effects you on a deep level versus just the psychological or…
Michelle Moseley: You yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: the intellectual concept of this is the definition of Purity culture.
Michelle Moseley: Mm- Yes, and one of the things that I am kind of venturing into have been over the past year is providing some education for other therapist. off moments in religion,…
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: it's helpful to recognize that and so that's one of the things that I have been working on. I recently got approved for as an mbcc provider to offer some training around that just to help therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and for the few of my listeners who aren't therapist needs therapy, I'd locations and there's a whole process that goes into that to get certified and…
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: all that so kudos to you for going through that whole process, but then this is training that other therapist. I don't know. It is in North Carolina, but I'm imagining probably not 30 36.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, it's 40. at least for my licensure,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Hour, okay. Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: it's 40. I know there's different.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I'm an lmft. So there's some variance. In that too.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah. Yeah, thanks for clarifying. I forget that not everybody would be aware of what I'm talking about.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, but I think that speaks to what I was saying a little bit earlier this is the growing Fields when I went and got my certification in religious trauma. It was a couple too I will say specifically two locations where I could go and get some actual formal training in it. And I think as we're seeing the rise of the nuns as we get these headlines everywhere the non-religious or no religious affiliation demographic rises in the United States. There's going to be a need for therapist.
Michelle Moseley: Yep, that is so true.
Jeremy Schumacher: the support pen from either local therapist the local community around Being someone who says hey not only is church not always awesome. But sometimes it's harmful.
Michelle Moseley: It can be very varied. I have some folks both professionally even a few church leaders in the area that are very supportive that understand …
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: yeah, even though I might be a pastor or a leader in a church, I recognize that these environments can be harmful and they appreciate having a connection with somebody that they even refer folks or that kind of thing and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Michelle Moseley: then there's other folks that are very committed to their faith and they feel that my work is a kind of like an enemy or an antagonist to their faith.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: and I don't get very many direct Harassing or mean comments but a lot of people will just gloss over it move past.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: It not really even ask what kind of work is that? I've had some really fruitful conversations by with some folks that were willing to be curious and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: okay, so I am very religious. What does that mean that you work with religious trauma, and they're open to the conversation.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: So it's very varied mix.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, my background is marriage and family therapy. And so that's my licensure. And that's one of my specialties and I have years of people. When I tell them that's what I do for work sharing their marital woes immediately…
Michelle Moseley: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: which is not always awkward. It's sometimes awkward depending on our setting and now that I specialize in religious trauma if that's what I lead with I will get a lot of I was beaten by with a ruler in my Catholic day school and we're in a grocery store I'm happy to have this conversation.
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: So I think there is the spectrums really wide between people who are aware and willing and ready to talk about it and people who still think church is always a plus. And there's a lot of interesting space between those two spectrums.
Michelle Moseley: And I think there's a lot of folks for whom it's hard to balance or acknowledge that both can be true that religion or church can be a positive environment. For folks and it can be harmful for folks and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah.
Michelle Moseley: sometimes it's the same person that's having both of those experiences.
Jeremy Schumacher: and with working with a lot of clients in the deconstruction process or the Reconstruction kind of rebuilding where spirituality is going to look like it's a struggle because If you're raised fundamentalist, you want to do the black and white thinking so you want to go I thought church was good. But I've learned it's bad. So now all church is bad and That works for some people but for some people that's a pattern. We still kind of have to untangle of that black and white thinking.
00:15:00
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, and I think the way you describe that speaks to how it is an individual thing at least in my work my role that I view is to support a person and figuring out what their journey is. And so I am not somebody that's like gonna push you toward any kind of spiritual or church involvement or away from it like I'm here to support.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: Was you navigate and figure out what your own path is?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and it is so variable. We're talking specifically about church harm, but I think therapy specifically also has some space in which spiritual providers practitioners who come from a strong religious background can do harm in the therapy space which is why I think having some training and continuing ed type things is really lovely because also people who have been harmed in the church go to therapy and are harmed there as well because the therapist
Michelle Moseley: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: that might be triggering but they might not know why.
Michelle Moseley: yeah, yeah, and they might not have the words to put to what is this experience or especially a lot of fundamentalists kind of high control environments. You've basically been trained to trust the quote unquote leader. And when you come into somebody's therapy office like that therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: Rather than trusting your intuition of something's off about this.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and that medical model that a lot of therapist the expert.
Michelle Moseley: Mm- Yeah. Yeah. I think that that is something that you have to be aware of as a therapist need.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I want to travel backwards in time a little bit with you if that's okay to kind of working A Ministry setting that was in higher ed, correct?
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, it's an International Ministry, but I worked in the part that worked with college students. So I was yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and vocation.
Michelle Moseley: I was in working with higher ed with college students all the time.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I don't know you can share your experience. I think there's some overlap between education Patriarchy capitalism, that whole system where there's religious trauma and there's others all these stacks of hierarchical systems. That kind of can if it's a toxic or an unhealthy work environment. It can be really hard to come out from underneath that because there's all this societal pressure. From religion from capitalism from the way that we do employment in this country. There's a lot of things working against Acknowledging that it's an unhealthy or toxic environment and then getting out.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, and a lot of that I didn't realize as it was happening. the patriarchy piece was a big part of my experience of spiritual abuse and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Michelle Moseley: I Toured the end could put a name to that but the way that capitalism influenced how long I stayed in a situation that I knew was not healthy. I couldn't have put a name to that at the time,…
00:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: but If your job is in Ministry, and that is where your full income comes from. And at the time I was a single adult like the idea of I don't know if I believe this anymore. This is a harmful environment. I need to leave that is terrifying. Because then How do I pay for food? so yeah the way that all those systems play together. Definitely. I feel like I've become more and more aware. every day
Jeremy Schumacher: And if you need to get a lawyer Christians aren't supposed to sue each other and…
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: there's all these things where The patriarchy I'm gonna oversimplify a touch here, but the patriarchy's built in the abrahamic religions. And so Christianity being one of those You're taught especially if you're raised in it from an early age that right Christians don't go to court against each other and that accountability comes from God not so even something like going to filing a complaint can trigger a lot of fear in anxiety. Even if you're not at that point where you're ready to leave.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, yeah, and because those systems are so built in to the religion part. Yes, this is an organization and they have an HR department. But there's a lot of things that Are toxic and harmful, but are not viewed that way by R because they're viewed as being in the Bible,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Michelle Moseley: male leadership that kind of thing,
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and married to a teacher who worked at religious schools also before deconstructing this idea that your ministry is worthwhile. And so it's okay to underpay you or to not provide you with all the support that you might need because that's your calling.
Michelle Moseley: Mm- Yes, and your reward is in heaven. So it's okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Michelle Moseley: If you are suffering now, in fact, you should be suffering now.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right, that's good gold star for you for burying that cross.
Michelle Moseley: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: I've been out of it for years When you look at it as a big picture, it's still so yucky.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, yeah. And it's in my experience. I did grow up in the southern baptist church, but I grew up in a small town and I think my church experience was not the same as folks that grew up in a really structured Southern Baptist Church, in my church, there were women that took leadership roles because if they didn't but there were no other people, …
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: and so I really was more indoctrinated into a lot of the systems during my time in Ministry and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: my brain naturally looks for that black and white, here are the rules follow the rules and then all the sudden when the rules don't make sense or when the rules are harmful. It's Like at least for me my brains like what do we do with this? How do we break the rules the rules are not good,…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Michelle Moseley: and that's definitely something that I have worked on and continue to work on.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and it's my podcast. I can swear. It's such a mind f*** it's because you're trying to not sin you're trying to be respectful like there's so much that's built into the system that insulates the system from any repercussions and…
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: so individuals end up bearing the brunt of that and it's so confusing to try and make sense of it when I'm working for a Christian institution and we're the good guys and when you start to pull on that thread and be like, they're doing this because they need money or they're doing this for whatever and isn't your friend in general but I would say definitely and Christian institutions it's there to protect the institution whether that's a school or a Ministry or just the church in general.
Jeremy Schumacher: Public Image and how are we bringing in more people? I grew up Evangelical. So how are we spreading? The word was much more important than this one individual has been harmed. And so it's very hard to kind of start to even boundaries have been crossed because you don't have a framework for what healthy boundaries are.
Michelle Moseley: Right, right. What are boundaries?
Jeremy Schumacher: Right yeah, and so that's really tough and then making sense of it and learning how to get some of that out of your body when you've been raised in it because there's decon the intellectual process and then there's What I referred to as kind of deconversion, which is getting it out of your system. Purity culture is the thing that stays in…
00:25:00
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: if you're raised with some toxic theology like original sin. That's something that stays in you so these ideas of worth and value. It's hard to set good boundaries when you don't feel like you deserve them. And so a lot of that stuff is it's not just I got a new job or…
Michelle Moseley: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not that version of religious anymore, but it's Now I got to get this out of my system.
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm, And I find this is true for a lot of the folks that I work with some version of feeling like you're a floating head like you're not connected to your body at all. When you're coming out of all of that and you're d deconstructing possibly deconverting figuring that all out. It's like, This is all happening up here, but Don't even have any awareness that there is a body attached to my brain,…
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: and so figuring out. how do I remake this connection?
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, because your body is Potentially misleading it's sinful.
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: And so you are taught to turn it off to some degree.
Michelle Moseley: Yes, yeah. Yeah, and I mean that overlaps with another thing that I work with I work a lot with body image concerns. I find there's a lot of overlap for folks of messages that they may have gotten from Purity culture about, being shameful around their body what their body is allowed and not allowed to do experiences around pleasure. And that also comes up with messages from diet culture of what part of your body is.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: Okay, what kinds of bodies are okay pleasure with food and experiences in your body, and so there's a lot of work there with reconnecting brain and body and existing in this physical being that we have.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think religion amplifies a lot of that, but I think that's true in our culture too that There are systems in place that promote patriarchy and so Beauty from a male gaze specifically and the kind of the standards. We have around good looks and what that means and some of the implicit biases that go along with that stuff we pick up before we're cognitively aware that we're learning it and…
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: then to unlearn it and learn a healthier version of it is You have to be aware of it, and then there's work to do. Once you're aware of it.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, it's hard work and it can feel so unfair because you are swimming in those waters before you're even able to say yes. I'm okay with accepting these beliefs that they're just all around you. I'm gonna realize wow.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I have to do a lot of work to o. the things that I was given That I didn't consent to being both with religion and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: with body stuff
Jeremy Schumacher: And that I've always owned this as a me thing, but it might be a cultural thing. I like intellectualizing that goes on there's one part to know it in your head and then there's another separate issue to connect your brain to your body because for whatever reason we pretend like mental health is different than physical health even…
Michelle Moseley: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: though your brain Is an organ as much as your kidneys are and it's going to operate as such so. Connecting your brain to your body is important that's what wants to happen. And we learn we are taught all these ways to disconnect from our body.
Michelle Moseley: Yes, And so then we have to learn. Relearn how to read how to reconnect because we lost that intuition lost that ability.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Was that a thing that you picked up as you got into the mental health field? Was that what you wanted to work on with when you were going back to your Masters? Because I know Religious trauma was the niche that found you was body image stuff. Was that something that you're like this what I want to work with or was that another? I don't say client dictated but seeing clients and seeing that there was a need there.
Michelle Moseley: That was something that kind of came from my time in graduate school. I had a professor that did a lot of work around body image stuff and I specially doing it from a late inclusive perspective and that was something new to me. And so I kind of picked to that Along the way there when I first went into graduate school. I thought that I was probably gonna concentrate on anxiety.
00:30:00
Michelle Moseley: Maybe some depression I think because those are so prevalent and I have personal experiences with anxiety and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: that felt like something that a lot of people need this and I can be helpful here. And then like I said my professors interest and work around weight inclusive care kind of Jeremy in that direction and then everything came together to also draw me toward religious trauma and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: then as I was working with folks, I realized how much overlap there can be now that's not true for all of my clients. I have some clients that are coming for religious trauma or some that are coming for body image and there's not overlap, but for a big chunk of the folks I work with there is overlap there. And so helping make those connections and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: helping them no longer be a floating head to be ahead connected to a body.
Jeremy Schumacher: And just kind of I'm processing in real time here that Venn diagram of religious trauma and Body Image. I mean you have issues of identity you worth you have issues of self-care. So it makes so much sense that there's a lot of overlap there. I see it a lot with the religious trauma community that I work with that identity issue of Rebuilding that and understanding your ethics haven't changed that much your values and your morals likely haven't changed all that much in some cases. It's the church that's changed and getting to that point of what does that feel in my body now? And there's a lot of understanding and creating safety so that you can feel your body and…
Michelle Moseley: he
Jeremy Schumacher: then learn kind of to be comfortable in your own skin as opposed to There's a right and a wrong way to do this.
Michelle Moseley: yes, yes and normalizing that if you have been existing pretty much in your head for years or even decades There's probably going to be some discomfort and trying to connect with your body and it's okay. If we do it in small pieces, there's no expectation that it's like a step of the fingers and okay, everything is reconnected and feels good. that's not realistic.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, and I would say just culture in general is uncomfortable with that the example I use all the time is funerals you go to a funeral on Friday and you're back to work on Monday and that's such a weird expectation to hold That big emotions like grief and…
Michelle Moseley: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: loss you can get through in three days. that's insane to me.
Michelle Moseley: Mm- Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so things like restructuring your identity or evaluating and rebuilding a belief system. Better there's a whole process to that. It is not one or…
Michelle Moseley: And there's a whole lot of grief and…
Jeremy Schumacher: therapy sessions.
Michelle Moseley: loss to that too.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: That is not recognized. there's so often with folks that when you name that it sounds like you're grieving. that hasn't even crossed their mind and am I allowed to grieve this? I specially…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Michelle Moseley: if they feel like they chose to leave. Am I allowed to grieve something that I chose to walk away from? and so being able to allow space for grief, especially when we're in a culture that Doesn't really agree well at all.
Jeremy Schumacher: No.
Michelle Moseley: Anything doesn't allow space for grieving.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and there's a lot of permission coming out of religious trauma because again, there's that difference to an authority figure. And learning that that was always arbitrary and getting comfortable with not needing that external approval what that feels like to give it to yourself and say I'm allowed to feel this way. Is the new experience for a lot of people?
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. maybe this is a Bugaboo of mine What was your experience in grad school around business practices as you own your own practice and run your own stuff. Did you have education around that was that a figure it out on the Fly kind of thing. Was that a switch because of covid kind of walk us through the business side of your working in the mental health field
Michelle Moseley: I did not have any business training in grad school. I really do wish that that was at least part of the program or an option, you…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: maybe to do some joint classes, especially if you're out of school that has a business program but no training there when I came out of grad school. I worked in community mental health for a couple years. That was a very hard experience as many therapist.
00:35:00
Michelle Moseley: rush out of grad school and There's a lot of learning on the Fly. And you also are very often overworked and underpaid. so Looking back I can say that was a helpful experience at the time.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: It was a very hard experience. So it took me about two years in North Carolina.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Michelle Moseley: We have associate licensure, which it takes about two years to get all of your license under supervision of another therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, the language is different but the system is the same here.
Michelle Moseley: Okay, and so after two years I was independently licensed and so I decided to join a group practice and have more of a private practice field, but I still had some structure with me and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: then 2020 happened. I was still with the group practice, but we went to all Telehealth. Which I never thought I would do.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm- Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I was like I want to be always being an office. I can't imagine doing Telehealth but, covid forced a lot of us to do that. And by the end of 2020 I was like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I think I really want to do this solo. I was getting more into realizing this is really religious trauma is a niche that I really want to work with. I want to have a little bit more control over my practice and so I would say 2020 was part of a catalyst.
Michelle Moseley: So I did like basically any podcasts or online training that was about how to be a therapist the business side just gleaning everything all the information that I possibly could and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: then taking the step to get started and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I am a Telehealth only practice. I found that's helpful because I can serve the whole state of North Carolina and I have a lot of clients that actually really like that because it's hard to find a religious trauma therapist needs therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: you…
Michelle Moseley: and if I'm in Central North Carolina, so if somebody's in the mountains, they might feel a little more comfortable of talking about specific church or specific group in their area without worrying about…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…
Michelle Moseley: what my connections to them might be
Jeremy Schumacher: and where people who maybe didn't grow up super religious like it. These communities are very small but oddly interconnected. so even though you might not be at the same church, and so who married and so's kid who's this person's pastor and Those Degrees of Separation.
Michelle Moseley: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: It doesn't take much before the same circles and so that's a legitimate fear for a lot of people. especially if it's a really high control church group where it's risky to talk to somebody outside of the group.
Michelle Moseley: And especially when you're first kind of treading into the possibility of therapy, and you don't really know the therapist needs.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: For Yeah and similar in Wisconsin. I mean, it's the Midwest since to be quite conservative perhaps for different reasons the Bible Belt, but there's a lot of conservative and geography plays a big role and the only religious trauma therapist. Here, I'm in southeast, Wisconsin on the lake if you're in the North Woods. You need someone who is not in your church community and you probably done pastoral counseling. Let's put that in quotes and…
Michelle Moseley: right
Jeremy Schumacher: highlight that's not real therapy. And so you've done some of these things and that experience with somebody outside of the church and that experience away from the religious setting might be very Green, but frightening to get started.
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, that is so true. And I think that's a great point that you make that for a lot of folks their first. Foray into what they might think is counseling is that pastoral counseling or biblical counseling which generally is someone that may have a few hours of training and…
00:40:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right a class.
Michelle Moseley: here's some Bible verses. Yeah, that is not therapy and that can really sometimes add to the harm. Of …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Right.
Michelle Moseley: what they have experienced and then if that's what counseling is like I'm not going to do that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, absolutely and Good little Christian Jeremy when he started out how many hours I spent as a marriage Breaking down versus in Ephesians about submitting wives submitted to their husbands.
Michelle Moseley:
Jeremy Schumacher: And as I was a liberal Christian at that point, but still it's just one of those things where even if you're seeing therapist needs
Michelle Moseley: Yeah, yeah, that's one thing. I am so thankful for the therapist needs therapy really know of anybody that was talking about religious trauma at that point in time and she was a Christian but she was so wise in if and how she Incorporated that very client-led from that if you wanted that to be part of your work because when we first started working together, that's where I was I wanted that to be part of it and…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah. right
Michelle Moseley: over time it transitioned to Yeah, I don't want this anymore this is not welcome and she was able to make that transition. with me and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. That's really lovely.
Michelle Moseley: I think that's a big difference between someone who is trained as a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, because I'm biased as I grew up fundamentalists but knowing the Pastors in my family or that I experienced in my growing up years they truly believe that they're doing good. by telling someone this is sinful or this is wrong or you need to pray harder or believe harder or whatever and For someone who's struggling with that or asking very valid questions that feedback is really harmful.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I hear so many horror stories. So it is wonderful to hear of a therapist therapy when it goes the way it's supposed to.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: So that experience was very healing after I had been.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: Really just destroyed.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and if you aren't having that experience in therapy find a new therapist.
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Michelle I'm gonna pivot a little bit here. what is modern day? What is current self-care look like where you cultivate enjoy in your life. What does your life kind of entail when you're not with clients?
Michelle Moseley: I think a big thing for me right now is becoming more aware of how my brain works and what capacity that I have for things. I think it was really driven into me that whole idea of suffering for Christ and you give and you give and you give and that's been something that's hard to let go of and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: hard to really tune in to my own needs and the fact that we all have different capacities and sometimes mine. Looks less than what I would want it to be. so that has been a big journey of self-care for me of just recognizing I need to rest right now. I cannot do this or I will not commit to another thing and that is okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: So that's been a big part of my journey. over the probably past couple years.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and there is that Find a way to serve or use your time talents or treasure. That was a big phrase.
Michelle Moseley: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Am I growing up this expectation that there's always more you could be doing and there's not a lot of time to rest, if you're worried about the Rapture or your time is limited here. you always have a lot of pressure to be going and then capitalistic Society on top of that productive success mindset. It's really kind of learn to slow down.
00:45:00
Michelle Moseley: Yes, yeah. And I think especially in private practice we get paid when we see clients.
Jeremy Schumacher: Be okay with that.
Michelle Moseley: And so there can be that pressure of I'll take on more clients because that'll be more Financial Security and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: being aware of okay, but there's a certain number of clients that I can see and serve them well. And beyond that I'm doing a disservice to everybody.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Which is the thing that we all tell our clients? we know this to be true and applying it to ourselves is still It's easy to check that box intellectually,…
Michelle Moseley:
Jeremy Schumacher: but to live that experience is a little bit more work.
Michelle Moseley: It's definitely work to do the things that we're always talking with clients about it's like it's reminders of …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: yeah, I need to do that, too.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I work with a number of other mental health professionals are a lot of medical people in the medical profession too. And we have a lot of these conversations of I know this. But are you doing it?
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: No Jeremy. No one's doing it that's not true. It's work. But some of us are doing it and covid I think even we're still just seeing a lot of the Fallout of that. Just moving everything virtual was a lot of work for therapist.
Michelle Moseley: Yes, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I can fit one more people and I can fit one more person in or I can adjust my schedule because this client needs it or I'm not going to take an extra day of vacation because I want to make a little bit more like it's Freedom when you run your own practice,…
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: but it's also a test of good boundaries when you run your own practice to commit to that freedom being used for healthy reasons.
Michelle Moseley: Yes very much. So.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. I know very little about North Carolina. I guess I know there are mountains and there's Coast. What's Central Carolina? is it?
Michelle Moseley:
Michelle Moseley: that is where the triangle is, which is Raleigh-Durham and Chapel Hill. So some folks are familiar like major airport in Raleigh Duke University NC State UNC Chapel All right there.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley:
Michelle Moseley: So there is definitely a college Bob a lot of research goes on in this area, but then there's also a lot of rule areas farms and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Michelle Moseley: that kind of thing in Central North Carolina.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: And…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I think a lot of people appreciate that depending on where you are in Central North Carolina, it's two to four hours to the beach two to four hours to the mountains, so
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's really nice. pleasure. My TV that isn't popular amongst people that I admit to liking is pro wrestling. And so I know a lot of Raleigh, North Carolina references. to the pro wrestling industry the North Carolina territories were like a really big deal Ric Flair is from North Carolina,…
Michelle Moseley: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: so I know that and religious trauma Bart airman's at UNC Chapel Hill who's a lot of people's tipping their toes into deconstruction is one of our airmen's books.
Michelle Moseley: Yes. Mm-hmm
Michelle Moseley: Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, man what a interesting time and space to practice it because I think North Carolina,…
Michelle Moseley: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think a bar Airman and then I also think of Southern Baptist Church those are a fun dichotomy
Michelle Moseley: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: I mean a lot of North Carolina is that kind of dichotomy like you have very conservative. Don't want any change.
Michelle Moseley: Folks that have been here forever, always gonna vote Republican because that's what we do and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: then you also have pockets of very liberal.
Michelle Moseley: Looking for change looking for Education. I'm willing to embrace new ideas and new ways of thinking, a few big pockets of that that I think are the Chapel Hill area with UNC Chapel Hill the Greensboro area and…
00:50:00
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Michelle Moseley: UNC Greensboro, which is where I went to grad school like Asheville area, these areas where they're very much is a thirst for learning and growing and changing where needed mixed in with these pockets of nope.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Michelle Moseley: Things are good like they're serving me. let's keep them this way.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think that's going on everywhere. I mean College are unique for those people who maybe haven't experienced one. I went to University of Minnesota, which is in the middle the heart of the Twin Cities and Campus is different than the city and the city is very different than rural, Minnesota. So. It's all these kind of different layers to super fascinating Michelle people want to learn more about you if they want to work with you if they want to find your stuff. Where do they go?
Michelle Moseley: So my website has everything on it has info about me my offerings including that continuing education and it is my name. It's Michelle F. Moseley.com. So m i c h f m o s e l e y.com Excuse me, and then I'm also pretty active on Instagram and my handle there is at therapy underscore with underscore Michelle.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…
Michelle Moseley: So those are probably the two best places to keep up.
Jeremy Schumacher: and we'll have that stuff in the show notes. So it's linked to that and it's easy for people right?
Michelle Moseley: awesome
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and we'll highlight those continuing ads because I know for the professionals who are listening stuff like that when that counts for continuing education people want to take it. That's Great to learn also great to meet your licensure requirements.
Michelle Moseley: Mm-hmm
Michelle Moseley: Right, right. It's a twofer.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, for Michelle, this has been a delight. Thanks so much for taking the time to chat today. Yeah, awesome and…
Michelle Moseley: Thank you so much for offering opportunity. I've enjoyed it chatting with you.
Jeremy Schumacher: to all our wonderful listeners. Thanks for tuning in. We'll be back next week with another episode. Take care everyone.
Meeting ended after 00:52:16 👋