Your Therapist Needs Therapy 46 - Getting Creative during Art Therapy with Elise Birch

Jeremy is joined this week by Elise Birch for an open, authentic chat. Elise shares their unique journey into the mental health field, and the niche areas they focus their practice working with. Jeremy and Elise explore the complexities of art therapy, highlighting its benefits in processing trauma and expressing emotions, even in telehealth settings. They also touch on societal perceptions of art therapy and the importance of valuing creative expression as a means of self-care.

To learn more about Elise, head over to moonseedpsych.com.

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube. Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship. 

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Elise Birch (2024-02-29 11:04 GMT-6) - Transcript

Attendees

Elise Birch, Jeremy Schumacher

Transcript

This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.

Jeremy Schumacher: This week. I am excited to be joined by my guess who we've had a couple mishaps scheduling. The universe has tried to interrupt us, but we're finally connecting. I'm very excited this week to be joined by owner and operator at moonseed Psychotherapy Elise Birch, Elise. Thanks for joining me.

Elise Birch: Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: we had a couple snafus on scheduling and Here we are.

Elise Birch: Yeah, this sickness going around is awful and you lost your voice and then I lost my voice and I kept joking with my husband. I was like I can't do my job without a voice. That's good thing.

Jeremy Schumacher: I know so weird. that was the first symptom I got before I got all the other head cold stuff was like I sounded like Mickey Mouse and I was like, right how am I supposed to do a 60 Minute session let alone record a podcast that people are gonna listen to joyfully in their ears.

Elise Birch: Yeah decent assist from Disney anyway,

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, he's public domain now. So I think that they go.

Elise Birch: true true.

Jeremy Schumacher: Elise I always start with the same question, which is just how did you get into the mental health field?

Elise Birch: So I give the same response every time I even have it on my website. So I was depressed teenager many therapist. but I knew from 17 I'm gonna go help people I have this experience so that when people say, you don't know what it's like sometimes I can say I do and it's okay here's where we're at. So that's really why I became a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah. Yeah this is a weird question was that impatient experience like a positive one where you were like, this is super helpful I want to do it too, or was it like these people don't know what they're doing. I could do a better job. I want to be a therapist.

Elise Birch: 

Elise Birch: I put it both I mean impatient in America. I always say it's to keep you safe more than to get you. I have a lot of great stories from the inpatient. There was one guy who he would just yell Roadhouse all the time like the Family Guy bit and it was awful. I hated that anytime. I hear those words like it was bad, but then there was this one…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Elise Birch: I don't remember what I guess behavioral technician or something. He wasn't like a therapist needs the

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Elise Birch: so there were good and bad parts as his most impatient therapy.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I think a lot of helping professions. We are either trying to help ourselves or we had kind of a formative experience. I find that with a lot of medical professionals. I work with doctors or…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: nurses and teachers too either really bad teacher or a really great teacher that inspired them to kind of pursue that So this universe speaks to you moment.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: And then what was the actual process of going through all that very much schooling that is included in becoming a therapist.

Elise Birch: So I graduated high school a semester early due to bullying and then I was lucky enough to be poor and smart because I didn't think I was gonna get No one in my family had ever been to college and I was part of the 21st century Scholars Program here in Indiana, which is an incredible program. It's free tuition many public college for low-income individuals and…

Jeremy Schumacher: nice

Elise Birch: we still weren't sure where if I was going to be able to go anywhere. I really wanted to go to Purdue but we couldn't afford me, living up there, but we decided to College Tour up there and Purdue and I think but I want to talk about them for has this thing called Purdue promise whether they're if you're 21st century scholar, we will also pay for room and board. So I got a completely full ride to Purdue and I don't think I would have been able to become as good of a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: nice

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

00:05:00

Elise Birch: And while I was there, I started working at the suicide hotline up in Lafayette when I was 18 because my thought process was if I can do that I can do anything in the mental health field. Which was true, but looking back I was like wow, they should not have put an 18 year old. We're in a suicide thought like that's a terrible idea. Not that I was bad at it but more the residual effects that I'm sure it had on me.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, yeah and I mean It's about and right we need people to do those things. And so it's a bit of a theme on the podcast here is a lot of times when we're still in training.

Elise Birch: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: We're working these super high intensity jobs that we're not always qualified to be doing…

Elise Birch: only

Jeremy Schumacher: but the burnout rate is so high that we put students in there because They're gonna learn something.

Elise Birch: Yeah. Yeah, the highest need people have clinicians that are trained and paid the least and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Elise Birch: it's a very broken system in that way.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so I worked at a homeless shelter, similar thing different than a suicide hotline. But I know looking at your website, you've had some of those experiences of working in these high-intensity clients who need a lot of resources. Was that internship stuff or did you kind of have a passion in your career to work in those areas when you're starting out?

Elise Birch: I'd say a little bit of both. So after I graduated Purdue I came back to Indianapolis and went to IUPUI for art therapy. So that's what my master's degree is in and I worked so the internships I had there one was at the Julian Center which is domestic violence shelter downtown. They have an incredible art Therapy Program and my intern there very rough, but I think probably the suicide hotline kind of opened my eyes to domestic violence. And so I really enjoyed the work I did there. I enjoyed, giving people who had just come out of a terrible experience a chance to do something other than sit in the shelter and Plan their lives or be sad being able to do groups and do art was really fulfilling for them. And so it was really fulfilling for me.

Elise Birch: And I also interned at a psych ward which was another great experience hard experience and then Second year internship was at an outpatient addictions Clinic. And I never thought I would go into addictions but it was five or six of the internship options for addictions. And so I was like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: I don't want to work in a nursing home. I do know that so addictions it is. But I really enjoyed it actually.

Jeremy Schumacher: And pulling back the curtain a little bit for the non counseling people who are tuning in theory picking your master's program.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: You want to be picky about those programs because that is tied directly to your internship site, but there's very little I think coaching or advocating around that for incoming students. We don't always know these things…

Elise Birch: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: where 22 or 23 years old. I was 20 picking up my grad school that didn't know what I was doing. And so I think it's one of those things there is this system where we're fulfilling a need with student and in training therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: High intensity situations of addiction or Hospice Care Nursing Home situations,…

Elise Birch: My boards, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: sometimes the VA and again, these can all be really great wonderful things if you're passionate working with that population, but if you want to do Child and Adolescent work work in addictions isn't going to help prep you for that. So it's a weird Quirk of the system that as students are paying thousands of dollars for our graduate degrees and we don't have a ton of autonomy in picking where we want to start getting our experiences.

Elise Birch: And that the experiences himself are unpaid our internships with my program were 38 hours a week. And so I couldn't hold a job. Not only the student loan debt,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: but the living debt. Luckily. I've been with my husband for eight years and so he was able to carry a lot of that load, but I know a lot of people that have to take out personal loans on top of that. It's a very elitist system that if you don't have the funds to do unpaid internship, you can't be a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think we're talking about this because I think part of it is like we have all this research that suggests that therapist.

00:10:00

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Elise Birch: You should they go maybe not.

Jeremy Schumacher: And again, I think a lot of people are passionate about it and want to work with this. It's just We don't do a good job of prepping undergrads for The Graduate experience and like you're saying there is a privilege status to be able to afford it or…

Elise Birch: That's right.

Jeremy Schumacher: being able to work through it when we're not paying I've been in the field for 15 years My internship site collected fees, but right as an intern we weren't paid those we didn't get those at all this went to the clinic.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So that was before the Affordable Care Act and stuff how old I am but it's an interesting experience still in We have this system of it takes two or three years to graduate. It takes two or three years to get your license on top of that a lot of the time …

Elise Birch: 

Jeremy Schumacher: how are you supposed to live while you're doing that?

Elise Birch: Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely that grad school life is Razor thin I do think one of the driving factors for picking my master's program was that I wanted to do art therapist needs therapy in Indiana and the other one is online. And when I was looking at reviews of them, they don't actually even have set up internship sites. You have to reach out to you basically the cold call places. And see if they'll take you on as an intern and so I was like does that my program that I API was like, we have these 10 sites that have agreed and I'm like,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. right

Elise Birch: yes. Sounds one more thing off the plate. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and you said you minored in your undergrad with art as well. and excited to talk about that. I don't think I've had an art therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: need for people who maybe had never had an impatient experience what goes on in a day and why art therapy might really be a highlight for something like that.

Elise Birch: Yeah, I'm also gonna give my little spiel about art there because a lot of people don't really know what it is. A lot of times.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: I'm told you're social worker with a marker is kind of the reigning thing that people try to tell us where they assume I only work with kids or in schools. And so art therapy is actually a very well researched feel the director of my program was working with Georgetown University on the Neuroscience of art there be and so art therapy part of it is that it's easier to talk about trauma when you're doing something with your hands and not staring at a stranger on the couch.

Elise Birch: I think that's a big piece of it. Is that comfort of doing something but there's also so much more to it. So there is the idea of process over product that when we're doing art we expect it to look good or we don't do it at all instead of just creating because it's good for us. The Act of Creation is great for our brains. It's great for our body. All of it is very helpful to us and after middle school when you find out you're not good Big Air quotes and art a lot of people just stop and that was kind of my goal in being an art therapist.

Elise Birch: And so especially when it comes to inpatient stuff a lot of the art would be things like draw your feelings or color this coloring book or draw, a flower and without the proper training you don't really know, what this art is doing to people art can bring up a lot of things for people that you don't realize one of the things we talk about is What's called the expressive expressive therapies continue on which basically means that different art does different things to us if I

Elise Birch: Give a client watercolor and they are in a highly emotional state that fluid uncontrollable media is actually going to make them worse because they're not going to feel like they have control over things. And so instead giving them something like a magazine collage to feel more structured to feel more the sense of Mastery of I don't need to draw a face because I have a face and being able to do that is going to give someone more autonomy and what they're doing. Versus if someone is very repressed and tight. I might give them, watercolor pencils to kind of pull that out of them of we can let go of some of this control we want we can kind of just accept that it's not going to look great or the paint went this way or that way without us wanting it to do that.

00:15:00

Elise Birch: And so knowing that in inpatient is much more, fulfilling than just. let's do a coloring book not that coloring books are bad coloring books. I'm actually a big advocate for they provide containment and they get people to make art. So no shooting on coloring books for mine.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah and we have such a high emphasis on being able to use language to talk about feelings we're taught to talk about a verbally we're taught and…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: that's using a wonderful pathway in our brain but our brain has other Pathways to process these things and I love hearing from theist the idea of art therapy like you're talking about stimulating a different expressive process when you have someone who's trained to kind of know here's the structure for a client that will be helpful for…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: where they're at right now instead of just having that cookie cutter approach of Here's paper and…

Elise Birch: art

Jeremy Schumacher: pencils go crazy.

Elise Birch: Yeah, and even in the sense of things in the psych ward, we can't have pencils because they can be sharper. We can't have scissors when I worked at a rehab I was allowed scissors, but I had a number then and so I had to have one through five and if I didn't have all five scissors at the end of group we had to go into lockdown.

Elise Birch: So even just knowing what can be, appropriate for different populations. I wasn't allowed to use Sharpies or alcohol inks at the rehab because if those were taken they can be used inappropriately. yeah, I think it's really important to I mean, I think even traditional talk therapist needs therapy happen with every facet of…

Jeremy Schumacher: right

Elise Birch: what we're doing.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, and you brought up I think culturally right third grade fifth grade somewhere in that elementary school, you're either labeled as talented at art or not. And then you don't pursue it anymore. And there is such benefit to having an expressive creative space in your life because a lot of your brain wants to do that.

Elise Birch: Yeah, and I think there's also this big emphasis and I've fallen into this prep too of monetizing hobbies. And so it puts that extra pressure. if I'm not good at this then I can't post it or what am I gonna do with it? I can't sell it and it's like you can just make it for the sheer joy of making it and then throw it in the trash on the way out if you want, but You get anything out of it,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: except the process of doing it process over product is a big Mantra in the art therapy world.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and that grind culture. Capitalism where everything has to be productive or…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's not successful if it's not accomplishing something like I feel like art is very a big resistance to that.

Elise Birch: Definitely. I think just in the art World there is this movement of the idea that crafts are not bad crafts shouldn't be looked down upon any more than Fine Arts, especially a lot of times things like embroidery or smaller should see Kitty type art. and it's traditionally art that a lot of women do and It's like that's not fine art. So it can't be as valuable as oil paintings or sculptures or those things. You might learn in an art degree.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and there's this nudiness to that even as you're talking about it.

Elise Birch: absolutely.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, but yeah, I mean even just like clients who want to bring their knitting to session because while they're doing something with their hands that's helpful like there's so much.

Elise Birch: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Benefit to just having a thing that soothes your body suits your system if it's a creative outlet and…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: you really enjoy it awesome. but also your body wants to do some of this parts of our brain are specifically just to create

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Mm-hmm and even though to go back a bit. I did my internships and then I worked at rehab and then I moved into a group practice and then I'm on my own now and coming into my own I decided to be Telehealth only largely to save on overhead costs while I see if this model even worked for me and it was really worried about bringing art therapy into a Telehealth space, but it actually has, worked pretty well. I feel like the idea that Telehealth isn't I think it's beneficial in different ways. There are definitely some things you miss out on by not being in person, but I still do art with most of my clients. We still do that together. We still are talking about the artwork or talking about the processor or what art they did between sessions.

00:20:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think I'm not an art therapist. S therapy from…

Elise Birch: All right.

Jeremy Schumacher: then even though I had given them homework to do some art. But it wasn't an intervention in session,…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but it changed our sessions from then because we had this kind of metaphorical creative thing that we could refer back to that really opened it up for the client to process their emotions in a different way.

Elise Birch: I love that. Yeah, I've done anger kind of stuff before I talk about the difference between holding a pencil and sketching in these tiny little finger wrist movements versus taking one of those giant smelly Sharpies on a big piece of paper just like scratching over it and how cathartic that is versus the tiny little scratches we try to do

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah and I think with Telehealth too, your clients are accessing with them available to them. My client had tomatoes available. I think right there's this instant of what if they don't have art supplies but they have access to all these things they can use to be creative that Telehealth can still work.

Elise Birch: Yeah. And that's something I talked about the intake. I have directives for oil paint and I have directives for a ballpoint and a post it like whatever you bring to session that you have we can use.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, what was that Journey you hinted at it? But I do like to highlight it. I like to talk to people who own their own practices from agency work or being at a group practice into opening your own business. Was there specific thought process behind that or a drive for you to do that?

Elise Birch: So the first thing I like to say is it's terrifying but I think that is something that everyone goes through when they're kind of doing their own practice or even when I was moving from a salary Clinic position into group practice where your money isn't as static and you're worrying about building a case load all of that can be really frightening. but going from group practice to my own. I feel like first I'll say that my group practice was incredible experience and I loved the people there at most we had six clinicians with some interns was a very small practice but I did feel towards the end of it. I've been there for years. I kept getting frustrated that

Elise Birch: 50% of my money was going to the overhead of a clinic that I didn't have a say in the rent of what we are paying or where we were staying I didn't have a say in really any of the overhead that was happening where my money was going towards. And I think There's this idea that therapist needs therapy that make a lot of money.

Elise Birch: And so losing 50% of every session is hard and it does weigh on you. So it was mostly Money Motivated and it took me a long time to be okay with that because it feels selfish especially when we're in this helping Noble profession, but it's also wow, I would feel a little bit better. I would be able to take more vacation days. I would be able to pay for more of my therapy sessions if I was making a little bit more money and so it was a big part of it was money.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and you mentioned those contracts which I get a lot of people who own their practices and have employees. I'm so anti the 1099 model…

Elise Birch: Yeah. The W I will say that that was good.

Jeremy Schumacher: because that's good. But yeah this idea that you're gonna split pay at at 70 30 in a good again.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Put that in quotes good set up.

Elise Birch: I was there 50. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Or 50/50 especially when you're starting out as a recent grad or something. So again, you're just limited access to grow your practice in the way that you want to build it. I mean I think I was at a 55 45 split when I started out and had to pay for my own Psychology today had to do these things. It was still like marketing myself, even though I was paying to the clinic to do those things.

00:25:00

Elise Birch: and I've seen people call it predatory and I think some clinics can definitely be predatory. I had my lmhc a which is the Associate's license. It's saying okay you graduated but you need so many hours and you need to pass these tests before you can do that and I couldn't take any insurance except Medicaid and so I was seeing Medicaid clients and the rare people who can pay a full self-pay rate, And so I was also getting supervision my supervisor there was incredible. And so those first couple years where I was out of the clinic, I was still getting my full license. I do feel like having my supervisor there and having other clinicians there to kind of help me learn what private practice was like and everything else.

Elise Birch: Was super beneficial and I think that's the first two two and a half years that felt worth the 50/50 that felt worth it. But then when I got my full license and I was ready okay, I'm good. It was much more. I can do this on my own.

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, did you have much training in your grad program around business practices opening your own practice?

Elise Birch: No. No, did you hear me? I went to an art therapy school?

Jeremy Schumacher: I didn't know maybe they were looking at different modalities or things like that.

Elise Birch: I mean, I always joke, my Master's Degree was a little hippie dippy. We will like and I love that because I work so much more with that Dynamics symbolic all that good psychology stuff that a lot of people are drawn to when they're looking at Psychology, but I did feel very unprepared for the business part. I remember my first internship. I was told to write a note and I was like, I don't know how to write a note. But I've never been taught…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: how to write a note. what is a note?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I like that perspective because I think it's easy for me being in private practice and being in the profession for a while this s*** on kind of the route to get in there. But you're right you raise a good point that those first couple of years might be useful to learn how to run an agency and some of the billing practices and how that stuff kind of operates smoothly especially…

Elise Birch: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: if your hands on learner seeing someone else Seeing their system, even if you're going to tweak it or do it differently. It's helpful to see something that's kind of fully formed rather than having to build it from the ground up yourself.

Elise Birch: And even the idea of I don't have when I was working at the rehab, I would run groups and I would see people individually and I was even going to court and things like that but it was very much someone else is also in charge of these people someone else there's a case manager. There's a supervisor that meets with them. There's all this whereas when you go into private practice. It's like no it's you are and I'll be all to this person's care and that can be pretty terrifying and so having someone there for me to go to and be like, hey am I doing this right? it's very comforting.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah with a good supervisor.

Elise Birch: Definitely, and I definitely lucked out with that. My supervisor was great and the other clinicians most of them had their sidee and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm

Elise Birch: so I also feel like I learned a ton of diagnostic stuff from them, which I feel like a lot of master's degree people.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Don't quite get

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of variance I think in that from programming program. I think I had good diagnostic but Didn't actually learn how to do anything beyond the diagnosis then so it's a mixed bag. But yeah, I mean internship site and supervisors earlier in your career can be super influential and helpful. And again, when I was in higher ed. I keep saying that to the undergrad and you're the only Professor who's telling us this stuff because I lived it your professors are tenured and don't have to deal with this. someone who owns a practice do deal with this.

Elise Birch: Yeah. Yes,…

Jeremy Schumacher: Let me help void all the mistakes that estimate so I do think we …

Elise Birch: tell you how.

Jeremy Schumacher: I do think we need some of that especially in the early grad stage If you're going for a psych undergrad you have to go to grad school that you're not doing anything else with that bachelor's in psychology.

Elise Birch: Absolutely. I tell people that all the time and any education is good education, but whenever I see someone online being like I have a bachelor's and site and I'm like, okay, thank Congratulations, nothing about…

Jeremy Schumacher: You can give some of the history of some of the psychology profession.

Elise Birch: how to do therapy at all then and

Elise Birch: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: That's about…

Jeremy Schumacher: what you learned in your undergrad.

00:30:00

Elise Birch: And you probably are also a sad person…

Elise Birch: because most people who gets psychology degree or sad.

Jeremy Schumacher: I want to research institution. So I learned a lot of statistics and research so that was useful in my undergrad.

Elise Birch: That Purdue was a statistics like a research psychology program, and I didn't really know that going in either.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Like I knew I wanted to be a therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: And I'm like what else did you want me to do and they're like, you could test people for how long it takes them to identify this object. I'm like, that sounds terrible. I don't want to do that.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. shout out to Big Ten school because I went to University of Minnesota. Which was really great and…

Elise Birch: night

Jeremy Schumacher: a great bedrock in what good and bad research looks like but yeah,…

Elise Birch: Mm-hmm

Jeremy Schumacher: I as an undergrad had no idea what I want to do in the fields and it didn't take long to realize that research isn't…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what I wanted to do. I wanted to deal with people not numbers.

Elise Birch: Here mine was definitely solidified when I had to take statistics twice. I was not good at statistics.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I didn't take any math classes in college, but I took six research and methods courses so lots of math in there.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: So Moon seed Psychotherapy comes about you open your own practice. What was that? Pre-pandemic? Did you beat the covid Telehealth crunch or was that when Telehealth was already kind of a thing that was happening?

Elise Birch: No, I'm a pretty new practice. I started July of last year. …

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Elise Birch: I moved. 2019 to 2020 I was at the rehab. And my covid date, I feel like everyone has a covid date. It was March 12th, 2020. We were in this big meeting. And of course everyone was saying this will pass in two weeks. It's not a big deal and I I had a panic attack I was freaking out and I told myself I was like, I gotta go home. I can't handle this today and my supervisor there was also really wonderful. She's like, go take care of yourself. I'll let you know what's happening and they decided to close down for the two weeks and I just never went back because things never really open back up. But what was interesting and kind of messed up it was an inpatient facility, right? And

Elise Birch: The staff so I think the minimum was a high school diploma that people who would hope for the women or the people who would do the day-to-day let them out of the locked Ward talk to them about showers and this or that they still had to be there with the women and so it was this really interesting dichotomy of I was doing therapy over the phone and I wasn't supposed to come in but there were still these people, being exposed to everything there.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. Yes, the break great fraud. we love our essential workers, but we're not going to pay them more or change anything in our society once this past.

Elise Birch: Yeah, or give them any support whatsoever while they're being essential.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, but yes from a practice perspective. I do think covid was one of those curious. external factors that really Force the field to change…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because they do not think the adoption of Telehealth would have happened nearly as fast if we hadn't all been forced to do it because of a global pandemic

Elise Birch: Yeah, I switched to my group practice and June of 2020. but even then Telehealth wasn't even on our radar it wasn't a thing. I kind of started a practice with that. But I had never even heard of doing that before. I think I maybe had a little bit of a leg up…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: because of the suicide hotline. I was used to talking to people on the phone. And so I was able to kind of get that feeling that there's a lot of energy and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.

Elise Birch: Vibes and my hippie dippy education's coming back in but like that in person feeling is really great, but I felt like I knew how to pull that out of a long distance session as well.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and your practice is I don't know. This is gonna sound bad. I'm a pagan so it's not bad and…

Elise Birch: Volume two. yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I'm not judging but yeah, there's some hippy dippy up front and mood seed just the title itself and…

Elise Birch: Yeah. I wanted that to come across.

Jeremy Schumacher: But I love your website just kind of approaching it from that I'm a person too you talk about your history but I love as a small practice owner when you own your own space. You can really advertise and Market yourself to the clients. You want to work with people who are like me. let's get together and…

00:35:00

Elise Birch: Yes, yeah. Yeah, and…

Jeremy Schumacher: figure this stuff out together.

Elise Birch: it's always interesting that people who reach out to me that I'm like, did you read anything on my site because you are very clearly not my demographic and of course, I'm not gonna be rude to them or anything like that, but I think a thing that's difficult for therapist.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: A bit like a rejection, but we have to do this because I want you to find someone you really truly Vibe with and I know from my professional experience that it's not going to be me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Not doing investigative journalism. So if you want…

Elise Birch: You're fine.

Jeremy Schumacher: if you want to dodge this question, feel free we can edit it out later, but I'm curious because you're openly accepting of lgbtq plus folks your working with religious trauma, you're doing some things that I would say don't fit what The Stereotype of Indiana is and…

Elise Birch: definitely

Jeremy Schumacher: some of the political climate for sure within Indiana.

Elise Birch: yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: What is that? what are you kind of hearing from clients when you're saying hey, I'm here for you. I'm supporting you. I'm allied with you. I have experiences that you marginalized communities may also have what's that experience when you're working in a state that's very red politically.

Elise Birch: Yeah, so I have heard, a lot of people in my cohort and a lot of my friends. I'll say the call. I want to get the hell out of Indiana and I grew up on the North side of Indianapolis. I went to Purdue came back to iepy where I did get an IU degree. I'm a divided household. So I got both and then I'm still living in Indianapolis for born and raised Hoosier and of course this state is red and there is a lot of

Elise Birch: Stuff going on that I don't agree with my thought process has always been if I can make it one drop more purple, then it's worth it because if all of the, more accepting therapist needs therapy Hospitality that I could talk to anyone on the street and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Here, yeah.

Elise Birch: about the weather or about the dog they're walking and there's this kind of maybe a little bit fake but also this kind of like, we can just talk to each other and smile at each other and I want to encourage that I don't like the idea that by leaving we're making it more divided.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I call that that's what we call it over in Wisconsin the Midwest nice and…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: in Minnesota too because I spent a fair number of years over there. But yeah,…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's interesting I think because Wisconsin is maybe much more purple politically than Indiana, but it's also I mean when you're working with marginalized communities they might not have a ton of access to resources. As they might be on a six to nine month wait list to see a psychiatrist. And so somebody who openly allies with their community and can work with them who has things like social justice on their website, even if you're white you're showing hey,

Jeremy Schumacher: If you can't find someone who has your exact lived experience that you're looking for I'm still here for you. I'm still holding space and I think it's been interesting in my experience. Once I stopped taking Insurance how much more like that word of mouth within communities of this is a safe person to work with really matters…

Elise Birch: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because marginalized communities need more help and support and there's often fewer options available to them for that support.

Elise Birch: Absolutely. I feel like I get a lot of clients that if they were in a bigger city, they wouldn't come to me based on what they know about my lift experience and I feel very lucky to have them as clients because it broadens my perspective too, especially with religious trauma. I was raised Evangelical Christian went to Omega Church kind of broke out of it when I went to college and have been on this journey since then, but I also see clients who are ex-mormon or X Islam.

Elise Birch: And more than I can read in books right learning about what it was like for them growing up and also the parallels in all the religions I about yeah, I had one client talk about how a lot of people party before Ramadan and she felt guilty about that and I was like, have you ever heard of Mardi Gras?

00:40:00

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Okay, that's exactly the same thing that they do before God let starts and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: it's just interesting to kind of get that cultural perspective and I feel happy that I can make them feel a little more seen But then I'm also so grateful that I get to learn so much about different cultures and different things and tell people, I never want you to feel like I'm telling you what you already know or what you lived and I also want you to know that all the emotions we feel underneath are still when you feel that shame it is the same shame that in Banglades someone in Norway feels it's for different reasons, but shame is universal.

Jeremy Schumacher: Mmm Yeah Yeah and Time back a little bit awesome to do Telehealth when you're in state that maybe doesn't have a lot of religious drama providers.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I experience that in Wisconsin just being available to people in a different way when you can offer Telehealth and yeah, I mean religious traumas fascinating because When you're raised in a particular religious group, you think it's such a small unique thing and the Venn diagram between High control religions is very tight like the Yeah, the process and the structure looks exactly the same even if the details around the algae are different. and so it is interesting to learn about that and hear from different people's perspectives like holy s*** I wasn't raised Mormon, but right had that same exact experience. We called it something else but

Jeremy Schumacher: Similar experience. This is what that does development. Did you experience any of that and having those conversations? I think it's helpful for people they want I get plenty of X evangelicals who want to work with me because I speak the language but also those people who are like, I don't want to work with someone who was raised the way I was because they might know this person and then it could get back to this. So there's also a safety component I think to being able to meet people where they're at. Not just niching down so hard. We're X evangelicals I think there's utility to both some clients want us…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: because we have the shared language and some clients want us because We're not from the same background.

Elise Birch: Exactly, and I actually have a few clients that are still identify as Christian and tell me I'll tell them up front. I'm like, did you read my site because I'm religious trauma and Pagan and they're like, yeah, that's why I want to talk to you. So you can give me insight into the things. I do want to leave behind the heavier stuff while still maintaining this Christian identity. I don't want to be part of the religion or I don't want to be part of the church, but I want to hold on to the beliefs. And so that's been a really interesting experience too of helping people deconstruct part of the religion.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: it's so fascinating and I always tell people In Mass humans are very easy to predict. We follow very obvious Trends and statistics but on an individual basis people are just endlessly fascinating. There's so much variance in even just people…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who experiences are Evangelical or saying High control religion, that's a certain percentage of population. There's a ton of overlap and they're all these unique quirky experiences that each person that have impacted them on a deep way.

Elise Birch: Have you ever heard the Two Worlds of psychology? So number one all people are exactly the same number two,…

Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know that I've specifically heard. Continue tell Alice more.

Elise Birch: every single person is completely different. Those are the two rules of psychology. That's it.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and so true I think that's how Therapy never gets old I've been doing it for 15 years and…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: I still love it. I get so excited meeting new people and hearing their stories and sharing space with them. That's the phrase. I use it's endlessly fascinating.

Elise Birch: That's interesting. I was just talking to a friendly other day. My least favorite part of being a therapist. I just want to work with the same 10 people for the rest of their lives.

Jeremy Schumacher: My ADHD I think the new novel is…

Elise Birch: but Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: what my brain lights up with of a new variables new situation

Elise Birch: Makes sense. My OCD is very much like No changes. Everything needs to be the same. I know exactly what I need to do But then you three four sessions and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: I'm like, okay. You're great. Let's work together.

Jeremy Schumacher: So you're deconstruction sounds like it happened in college, which is pretty common. But what's it like out and…

00:45:00

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: about as a pagan practitioner?

Elise Birch: Yeah, I didn't even really hope it was a thing. I remember I think I posted on Reddit or something. That was like can other people do faithface counseling. Can I do that? really only ever seen it for Christians? And so it was really cool and…

Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.

Elise Birch: I think the way I phrased it on my website is kind of secular or alternative spiritualities because I think Pagan is this overarching term that Has a lot of variance in it, but if I were to call myself a witch people would think I'm crazy. there's a lot of stigma and…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: confusion even to the point. I have a hobby job. I really enjoy and someone there asked me what is Pagan and I was like That's a big question, sir. I had to think about it…

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: because it's such like a broad term. It's asking what is a Christian?

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, right and different people are gonna Define it differently. Yeah, I identify as aeopagan,…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: which is not theistic that the atheist part of paganism…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but the idea that ritual and setting intention and those things for me that tied very neatly to how I was practicing myself care already, but I found the ritual of it made me a little bit more consistent with it again ADHD,…

Elise Birch: Okay.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: but it's one of those weird things where I'm not as probably client facing with it as you are on your website. I'm pretty out as an atheist. So people see that on my website. I talk about it on podcasts and stuff like that. But it is interesting because I think Pagan is one of those kind of loaded terms for a lot of people or you said the word which is maybe even a little bit more loaded.

Elise Birch: Yeah. Yeah, I would at that one.

Jeremy Schumacher: But what I was raised Christian, so I had no frame of reference for this stuff and connecting with the Pagan Community for me that was drink covid because they had to move a lot of their stuff online and…

Elise Birch: Okay.

Jeremy Schumacher: just delightful wonderful people who care about climate change and track the full moon and talk about planting and…

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: all this awesome stuff like these are my people this is awesome.

Elise Birch: Yeah, absolutely. one of the ways I do describe my paganism or my spirituality and this makes me laugh. I think that there should be research done on the Christian to therapist. Feel like that makes sense somehow…

Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.

Elise Birch: but what I describe people I'm like things on earth tangible things are vastly more fascinating to me than anything, unseen or unlike anything in the sky not the sky. But the idea of Heaven or Hell or the idea of the devil or God. I think the fact that humans, have come from monkeys and now we're doing therapy and we're doing podcasts about therapy. that's insane. That is so interesting on the fact that …

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: the moon influences the tides and we're 75% water and some People fully believe that doesn't affect Work on a psycho or during a full moon and that'll change your belief real quick. it's those kind of things that I find so much more fascinating than these ideas of if you don't do the things that this God says, then you are a bad person and bad things will happen. I find grounding aspect of paganism so much more healthy and interesting.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: It's interesting from early religious trauma perspective to get a lot of religious trauma therapist needs.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Therapy witch or if somebody says they're Pagan I do think there's a lot of social stigma around that still but also just a lot of the woo stuff isn't tied to paganism or being a witch. It's tied to the wellness movement or it's tied to yoga and chakras and Some of my former guests are probably being like a time to stop listening to Jeremy. He's calling us out…

Elise Birch: Okay, the stigma around astrology is astounding to me.

Jeremy Schumacher: but know that stuff.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. right

Elise Birch: I'm like you've never say this things about Christians. You've never said this thing about Judaism that I can't believe they believe in the stars and it's like why are those any different than believing in God it's just really

Jeremy Schumacher: it's weird because it's culturally we're aware of that as the field. We're aware of it and yet I still think it plays out in a very big realistic way of these social stigmas are hard even for people who are aware of cognitive biases and are supposed to be checking themselves on the regular there's so much that makes up our identities that we have these innate biases about

00:50:00

Elise Birch: Yeah, we can't check ourselves on everything. That's something I tried to impart to clients especially going back to what we're saying about culturally different clients. I let them know. I've never been Islamic so I say something wrong if I'm uneducated about something. I want to give you full permission to say hey Elise that's b*******. And I not to get defensive. I promise to say, tell me interesting and if you don't want to tell me I'm gonna go figure it out on my own too…

Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.

Elise Birch: because that's not your job. I want to know when I'm** up.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah and therapy can be such a helpful space for people who are bad at setting those boundaries. They go. I can do that.

Elise Birch: Yeah, yeah, I'll sometimes have clients that I can see in their face that I said something that didn't quite hit or not and they're ready to move past it. I'm like no. No, what are your thoughts? I can see that you're not vibing with what I just said tell me.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting with religious trauma and Hoosier Hospitality. I would guess pops up but I talk about Midwest nice There's some people pleasing from your religious upbringing there's some social cultural stuff from being raised in the midwest that …

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Yeah. Don't rock. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: hey, This isn't healthy boundaries I know no one's ever told you that before but this is how we do those. Yeah, there's so much interplay between all these different things.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: At least this has been fascinating. I don't.

Elise Birch: That I'm glad I've enjoyed talking you.

Jeremy Schumacher: I do some prep. It's not totally off the cuff. But I'm always surprised where these coversations kind of find themselves and wines to so this was great.

Elise Birch: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: If people want to learn more about you if people want to check out your website or learn more about your practice, where do they go? How do they find you?

Elise Birch: 

Elise Birch: Moon sea the psych.com and I think I have the story of why I called it moonseat on there. Keep that surprise. So you have to go to my website. Learn more.

Jeremy Schumacher: Check out the website to learn more. Yeah.

Elise Birch: Yeah, that's about it. I took my photos on there at the Indianapolis Zoo. My husband took them. I have a single cuss word on my website, which I felt like wasn't that I was like, I need people to know that I say f*** but I don't want them to think that I say f*** a lot.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Sure, you got to keep it coded. So the people…

Elise Birch: Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: who are looking for it find it. Yeah. Yeah, and I think you're on one of the directories therapy done or…

Elise Birch: I'm on Psychology today therapy done.

Jeremy Schumacher: whatever. So people.

Elise Birch: I think it might be an open path Collective.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.

Elise Birch: Just Google my name. something up

Jeremy Schumacher: Yes. the tree we discussed what a good Pagan name Birch like that.

Elise Birch: Yeah. i. Not you. Yeah.

Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, a birch tree. Yes, and we'll have all those links in the show notes for folks who don't want to track it down themselves. We'll have those links available to people so they can find it Elise. This was awesome. Thanks so much for taking the time to join me today.

Elise Birch: Of course, it was great talking to you. Thanks for having me.

Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners out there. Thanks so much for tuning in again. We will be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.

Meeting ended after 00:53:33 👋