Your Therapist Needs Therapy 59 - Bearing Witness with Kathleen Mack

Jeremy is joined this week by therapist and end-of-life doula Kathleen Mack. Kathleen describes her lifelong curiosity about people's minds and experiences, stemming from her own mental health struggles and early fascination with human behavior. Kathleen shares how her father’s death influenced her and led her to pursue training as a death doula, where she now helps clients navigate end-of-life issues, grief, and existential questions through a combination of life review, legacy projects, and planning the dying process. This is a really meaningful chat, and a topic that hadn’t been covered in the podcast yet, so check it out!

You can find more about Kathleen and her doula work at bearingwitnessmke.com, or find her therapy work at shoresidetherapies.com You can also follow Kathleen’s doula work on Instagram @bearing_witness_mke

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube.

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We have new merch for Pride month, so check that out! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Kathleen Mack (2024-05-15 11:02 GMT-5) - Transcript
Attendees
Jeremy Schumacher, Kathleen Teisl
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher licensed marriage family therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: needs
Kathleen Teisl: Hi Jeremy. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm so stoked. I love having therapist.
Kathleen Teisl: cool It's one of my favorite things to talk about so. You're for it.
Kathleen Teisl: my Feel like there's probably a long answer for that.
Kathleen Teisl: I think many therapist need. Particularly my dad, but other family members as well and I think that I found myself.
Kathleen Teisl: Fascinated by he'd Just Being Human truly and always tried to understand The way other people's minds works. my mom always says that when I was a kid, I would Eve's job and it would be so obvious that because I would stare at the people. it wasn't even Eaves dropping. It was literally just staring at them because I wanted to know what they were talking about and I wanted a glimpse into other people's lives. So I think I've always had this very Natural Curiosity and then also witnessed a lot of had my own mental health struggles as a kid teenager young adult and I think in high school. I knew that's what I wanted to do that I wanted to work in Mental Health social services of some kind and I did various.
Kathleen Teisl: different Avenues of that before becoming a licensed therapist
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, so what I don't want to jump just ahead to the death-do list of but I kind of want to when did Give us a you…
Kathleen Teisl: Go for it.
Jeremy Schumacher: the cliff notes version of your career in mental health Before specializing in doing the death to a work.
Kathleen Teisl: Sure, so. Going through other things I've done besides being a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Or your work as a therapist the death Doula work is a more recent. Thing in your career. So just share kind of that journey into How you got there and where that specialty pops up?
Kathleen Teisl: Stuff, So I work really well with clients who are asking big questions about their lives and life in general and the purpose of life. And certainly I don't come at it as if I know the purpose of life and I'm here to tell you but let's explore this together these are important questions, and just personally I've always asked big existential questions. Maybe just I remember being a kid and asking myself
Kathleen Teisl: What is all of this? Why are we here? what are we doing? And so I've just always had this natural inclination towards understanding the bigger meaning of life. and quite honestly, it was really not a phobia but a fear that I had as a kid and a teenager I did ask those big questions and then I had a lot of anxiety around death and dying I would wake up in the middle of the night I can remember Just with Star realization that this ends at some point and I was very afraid for a long time. so in my own healing journey of working through my own death anxiety. I have really cultivated a fascination of the topic and so
Kathleen Teisl: as I've continued to work with people I find that more and more I work with people who are dealing with grief who are dealing with end of life issues who are exploring dealing with existential issues. And so I then pursued a lot of training around that including the end of life Doula work.
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, do you wanna? Give us an overview Kathleen. this is a bunch of therapist needs.
Kathleen Teisl: so I Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: therapy interests
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, so I particularly like to work with trauma. and grief shocker and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: anxiety but I see that as time very much tied into both of those things and
Jeremy Schumacher: So were those things that through your schooling your knew you were interested in or were those things that as you got into the profession you realize this is what? You will do. this is the clients you fit. with who are asking these questions was that I'm drawn to this and I'm studying it so I can specialize in it right away or is that as you got into the field and started working with people? That's what you realized.
Kathleen Teisl: good question I think I always knew that I wanted to work with the Heavier stuff if you will.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Kathleen Teisl: yes took a natural interest in all things raum Grief death and dying. So I was always pulled toward that yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. And so picking up some Specialties working in that. I mean I graduated and the states myself a bit but it's been 15 years since I was in grad school trauma was a thing, but it wasn't a thing that we talked about the way we talk about it now in the profession so as a therapist,
Jeremy Schumacher: I was aware of but hadn't, done any rigorous coursework around was that similar to your experience or was that a good program where you had a lot of background in doing the trauma work?
Kathleen Teisl: I would say that my Expertise and Trauma has definitely come from being in the field versus being in school. And that's just kind of how I am. However, I will say that I worked at Rogers behavioral health for a number of years and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Kathleen Teisl: they have a I think they call Something University. you will if you're a therapist.
Kathleen Teisl: therapy specifically for trauma and then exposure response prevention therapy for OCD and so I got to do that which was incredibly helpful and Part of that sort of certification. I guess was a number of hours working doing very specific. you had to do number of specific things in order to finally have this certification So I got a ton of experience with that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: Rogers has very specific trauma programming and I got to work in that program. I got to watch the therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, do you so I'm a marriage therapist needs therapy world this So first order change is kind of Behavioral changes second order change. It's systems changing families or organizations changing. Now that third order change is like that existential or almost a spiritual. Type of work so it sounds like that's really where you've always been drawn and that's the work that you still like doing. Yeah. and…
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, I would say so.
Jeremy Schumacher: do You put that out there for clients to find you about that stuff or do people kind of find their way to you you find those clients who want to do that work?
Kathleen Teisl: On my profile. I have my own website bearing witness mku.com and then also the clinic I worked for sure side therapies has all my information in it and I talk if you read my profile, I think you get a sense of what I'm talking about. And I talk about spirituality is being something that I specialize in exploring anyway,…
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: and I do get a lot of clients who say that they saw that and that was part of the reason that they reached out to me. yeah, I also have one of the owners of shoreside.
Jeremy Schumacher: because it's go ahead.
Kathleen Teisl: She does little videos with each of the therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, because we can nerd out and be jargonate but that's not how clients find us or come to therapy. no one's I'm looking for that third order change. I really need therapist.
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, right. right
Jeremy Schumacher: So yeah, walk us through kind of the end of life specialty. When did you pick that up? …
Kathleen Teisl: Mm-hmm
Jeremy Schumacher: you mentioned your website. We'll talk a little bit about that work you do specifically but paint us a picture of Wanting to specialize in that and…
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: getting that training to work with that specifically.
Kathleen Teisl: yeah, I've been interested in working in death and I think since undergrad I remember taking a death and dying course in the Professor had said that he had been witnessed to thousands of deaths or something, and I remember being 19 and just was amazed by that and just fascinated.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: By that wait what you're comfortable. with dying and you actually are passionate about it like that was boggling to me because people up until that point. I felt like nobody really talked about it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Kathleen Teisl: so that planted a seed and then I went on with life and I Probably decided to do the Doula training. I'm trying to remember. Somewhat shortly after my dad's death in 2020 and that was just a really powerful experience. I don't know how much detail you want me to go into about that. I'm a pretty open book about it. But after my dad died, I felt like it opened up a little bit of a new understanding of life and death for me. And so I…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Kathleen Teisl: then sought out the training program that I did my death Doula stuff through
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so I mean 2020 is always of. Asterisk of that's I mean was that a loss Not being able to do a funeral or not being able to gather with family. was that part of that loss being so significant or was that more if you don't mind me asking was that more? The relationship that you had with your dad.
Kathleen Teisl: It's more about the relationship I have with my dad. So my dad actually died more March 14th of 2020 and the lockdown started March 16th,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay. Sure. Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I think It was crazy. it was just wild for all of this to be happening at the same time for me and it turned out to be somewhat of a blessing because I had this forced time off work because my kids daycare closed and that allowed me time to deal with my dad's death literally and also emotionally and spiritually, but we did not have a funeral…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: but he did not want a funeral so
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Kathleen Teisl: Maybe we would have done some type of gathering had it not been covid, but it was such a shocking time. It was literally the beginning of the lockdown And…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: but my dad died intentionally he didn't die by suicide in the conventional sense, but I describe it as passive suicide. He purposed very purposely stop taking all of his medications and had everything prepared for his death and basically told me that I was going to find him eventually and we kind of knew that that was happening and he was deteriorating significantly and he did not want any help that I had, tried to change his mind about years ago and had learned to just accept who he was and what his process was and just respect. his wishes to pass and so
Kathleen Teisl: I kind of walked that Journey with him and it was painful but also really beautiful.
Kathleen Teisl: yeah, it made me think about death differently.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so was being a doula on your radar was that a thing that you knew about professionally? I think a lot of people know here that we're Doula and think of birth as that's kind of what we have associated with.
00:15:00
Kathleen Teisl: I'm trying to think of the first time. I heard of death Doula and I think it was shortly after my dad died and I was on Instagram and not someone I knew personally, but someone I knew a friend of a friend whatever and I happened to see death Doula on their.
Jeremy Schumacher: true
Kathleen Teisl: On their Instagram page and I'm pretty sure that's meant for me. it was one of those moments…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: where I'm like, I need to know everything about that. immediately and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: so then Did some Google hours of Google searching, I'm sure and stumbled upon and Nelda which is the international end of life Doula Association. There are several. I was really drawn to that organization in particular. And then did the training in 2021.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: okay, and so for people who maybe only have that Doula as a birthing person Or a profession around giving birth what is an end of life Doula? What is a death Doula? What does that mean for someone who's maybe totally unfamiliar?
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah. Yeah, the sentiment is really the same in terms of what a death Doula does and what a birth Doula does and life going in life going out. There's a lot of parallels essentially. I guess I'll break it down. So there's the way that I was trained. There's sort of three. Bigger components of death do the work and I think it's important to say that. You don't have to do all of this. So the way I offer services is essentially a la carte. And there are a number of services that I can talk about and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Kathleen Teisl: I think it's most appropriate that people decide what pieces they want or don't want where there's other models. I've seen used where it's more of a package deal anyway. So the first is doing life processing and a Life review and that is what it sounds like. It's being able to talk to someone who is not your family about.
Kathleen Teisl: how you feel about how your life has occurred, the Beautiful Things the difficult things and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: you're doing it in a way that you may not share all of that with your adult daughter or your sister or your friend even because they may have an emotional response to some of the things you're saying. And so the beauty of this is that really objective non-judgmental open space to be authentic about your life experience that also can include facilitating conversations with people in your life. So let's say someone is embracing the end of their life and there has been a strained relationship with someone that they would like to maybe repair or acknowledge and I can help facilitate those types of conversations as well.
Kathleen Teisl: So that's really The next part is more around Legacy work. So that includes Pro Legacy project for people who are interested in that and what I specifically Do our videos so I have a videographer that I work with and it's essentially interviewing the person in their home or in a setting that is most comfortable for them and talking about what's important to them. what words do they want to leave behind for their loved ones? And so yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: it's kind of based on what the person wants to share. And we determine together how we want this to sound and how we wanted to feel in all of that and then I'm also doing some Classes around life writing so that would be more of like a short Memoir where I can help write that. A legacy project can also mean a million other things and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Kathleen Teisl: we can get really creative about what that is,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: but those are two examples.
Jeremy Schumacher: At I love this.
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, and then go ahead.
Jeremy Schumacher: I love that this offering exists. I think grief and fear of death. those are still very pervasive in our culture like you and I talked when we first met about this a little bit. there aren't a lot of death doulas. it's not a very big profession and there aren't a ton of them. So I think this work is so important because people naturally have a fear of things ending a fear of that change of end of life of losing a family member. So they do think all of this stuff is needed we don't have good structure culturally in our society and how to process death
00:20:00
Kathleen Teisl: Absolutely. I totally agree and I'll speak to the third part so that I don't forget but the third part is the actual. how you want and this is maybe what feels most similar to birth Doula work is
Kathleen Teisl: How do you want your dyeing process to go to look quite literally and how can I advocate for that on your behalf? This is down to…
Jeremy Schumacher: and sure
Kathleen Teisl: who do you want around what setting and obviously some of these things are within our control and some are not depending on the circumstances.
Jeremy Schumacher: hey.
Kathleen Teisl: But what setting ideally would you like to be in? Who would you like to be there? If anyone who would you not like to be there?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: Is just as important as the first question what type of rituals if any or prayers or music or start? what is your ideal death? And then I serve to be the advocate for that and again, it's this.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: It's asking someone to have that role who is not emotionally invested in you in the way that a family member might be and might have a harder time advocating or implementing those wishes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I have so many questions. Is there a lot of end-of-life planning that that happens. are you working in conjunction with people for stuff like that? Because in my line of work not specializing with end of life, I see a lot of the intergenerational stuff the families who lost someone the patriarch of the family and they didn't plan their funeral they didn't plan a bunch of stuff and now the families fighting and squabbling and all these things that have been functional for a year start coming out. So I'm curious in my line of work. I don't see enough people even planning.
Jeremy Schumacher: They're there end of life ceremonies rituals like the logistics of it don't get planned very enough very much. And then you're working on kind of these emotional and you need making things. So is there overlap are there other professionals who do that work specifically that then you collaborate with
Kathleen Teisl: So I haven't. Some Drillers will get into work around a little bit. They're wet like wills and paperwork. I have not gotten into that as of yet perhaps I will at some point other there are death doulas.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: Also particularly on the west coast who will do a lot of the funeral.
Kathleen Teisl: organizing per se so I don't currently have A lot of people in Milwaukee that I am collaborating with…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: but I think certainly there's opportunity for that down the road as this concept becomes more normalized. hopefully
Jeremy Schumacher: The Midwest is always a little slow A normalizing some of these things.
Kathleen Teisl: your eyes a little behind. It's okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm still hence the title of the podcast still fighting it just normalize going to therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so I think this is all so very fascinating. So bearing witness is the name of it's the website you mentioned. I love that concept of bearing witness, kind of being an observer witnessing somebody as at the end of life as they're looking back as they're taking stock of things like I imagine that's a very powerful experience for you as well.
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, I mean selfishly it's such a powerful and beautiful experience that it is an absolute honor and privilege to be with the dying and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I just mean that wholeheartedly.
Kathleen Teisl: I can't really even it's one of those things it's kind of hard to describe. What it's like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I mean, I'm sure many people listening have experienced. Maybe a loved one passing and
00:25:00
Kathleen Teisl: And of course, I'm not saying that all past things happen beautiful in a beautiful way, of course not but it's really a privilege for me.
Jeremy Schumacher: I can also imagine it's so empowering for the people who you work with to also have some autonomy in this process and take some ownership or maybe some authorship of this instead of feeling like it's this kind of out of control thing that is happening to you but to be a little bit. Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: exactly Yep to have some autonomy to feel empowered and to feel like there is an outlet to talk about it in a very real way versus often the discomfort of talk of…
Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: how talking about it may affect your loved ones. So if that makes sense, so it's I think working with a death Doula offers this really freeing space. To be however, you are showing up in your end of life process without having to worry about. my make is sad and everybody else is grief and how they're coping and dealing or not dealing with it. I think that's hugely important.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Are there major differences for what stage of Life someone is in if they're doing this work? I imagine someone who's been ill for a while who's in there, late 70s or 80s or 90s even like that work is different than someone who maybe has a terminal? Diagnosis been there late 40s or 50s is that part of your training?
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah. Okay. Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Is that like looking at that stage of life?
Kathleen Teisl: I mean It's certainly different person to person but in element of people who are on the younger side, it's of course grieving the loss of what they thought they would have and what is now being taken away from them or the loss of what could have been and it understandably,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: you see that more with People who are on the younger side, although I would say even people in their 60s and 70s. I think of that as relatively young these days, so I think even…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Sure.
Kathleen Teisl: then there's that sense of like I thought I had. two more Decades of life experience and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: grieving the loss of that
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: so Absolutely. I mean, I think it's probably too much of a generalization. And there's some truth to people who are older 80s 90s have a little bit more acceptance around. having lived for so many decades having gotten to experience so many. Life Experiences
Jeremy Schumacher: Here. Yeah. Yeah, and then what is the work look like as you're navigating some of those family Dynamics? So you're working with the person at the end of their life, but I'm guessing you have to do work and cross paths and facilitate conversations with other family members.
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: What's that experience? as you hold space for perhaps some conflictual emotions or some conflictual? stories about that person
Kathleen Teisl: I think that the answer is it says varied as individuals are every family system as we know as therapist. needs
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: to that while also Remembering that your priority is the dying person.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: And that can get a little messy. As these things are right.
Jeremy Schumacher: I imagine. Yeah, I mean, I don't know desensitized joke, I've been doing a couple's counseling for 15 years now like November and December all the work I do is about boundaries with family of origin for two months out of the year. That's all I do because these family Dynamics are so Complicated it's not necessarily in theory but complicated in practice to navigate and navigate successfully and so end of life brings a lot of that stuff to the surface. There are a couple I think major life transitions that highlight a lot of these family dynamics that For a lot of people who are conflict avoidant. I'm from Midwest nice here. We don't like to do conflict like a lot of this stuff Can get ignored or live under the surface until something like a death is kind of imminent.
00:30:00
Kathleen Teisl: Yep. Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I like the complex work. Obviously. I mean I talked a lot about my ADHD and…
Kathleen Teisl: I do too.
Jeremy Schumacher: when there's a lot of moving parts. That's when my brain is. Again, it's not about me is the therapist.
Kathleen Teisl: Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: What in getting this training and offering these services and doing this work with people what has maybe changed about your approach of-life to death and dying?
Kathleen Teisl: I've certainly gotten. Way more comfortable myself. Obviously with maybe not obviously but I think it's a natural byproduct where I think about my own mortality all the time and I don't mean in a depressed or depressing way. I actually was just listening to a podcast and I can't remember but I can't remember what podcast it was because they listened to so many but this woman was talking about the importance of
Kathleen Teisl: of thinking about your own mortality on a regular basis and the point is because it provides a little bit of a different framework. So if I'm thinking of a problem that I might have today in my life and I'm not thinking at all about mortality or the fact that life comes to an end. I am probably going to see that problem differently than if I Remember the framework of my mortality and it adds a different perspective to how. I engage in my life's work in my relationships
Kathleen Teisl: Who I am it begs the question. Who do I invest my energy and time in and what do I invest my energy in time in and thinking about my mortality the fact that it could be 60 years from now. Yeah, I suppose that's possible or six days from now, it helps me prioritize essentially and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I think that Simply the exposure to talking about thinking about death being with people who are dying alleviates a lot of anxiety just like exposure therapy works. If we Face the thing we are afraid of we get more comfortable,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: even if it's just getting more comfortable with the discomfort.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right. Yeah. yeah, like No,…
Kathleen Teisl: I can't remember what the question was, but I think I am.
Jeremy Schumacher: you did answer it. I'm talking about podcasts. We can't remember. I don't know if you ever watched the show midnight gospel. It's on Netflix. It's weird. it's an animated show. That's basically Duncan Trussell who's a comedian his podcast is then animated with crazy over the top kind of trippy psychedelic animations, but one of the guests he has on and I'm drawing a bank blank on her name. It'll drive me crazy. I'll put it in the show notes, but she's a death Doula and so just talking through
Jeremy Schumacher: All this stuff the way that modern society avoids death the way we do funerals and it's all very sterilized and it's out of the house and it's away from people and all these things happen have made death scarier as opposed to making people more comfortable with it.
Kathleen Teisl: That's also really fascinating to understand other cultural norms around.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so I remember watching that episode and then looking into her work more and being like it is so fascinating. It's not like A darker Macabre thing when you're working with death.
Kathleen Teisl: Death and the way it's viewed is really really fascinating.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's a very gentle and kind of loving open space. You hold when you're working with death because it changes your perspective.
00:35:00
Kathleen Teisl: totally
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: totally. Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. I talk a lot about that with grief and did I'm drawing and in other cultures as some ideas for ritual and structure because again American culture is kind of funeral on Friday back to work on Monday and that's not how our brains are wired to process big emotions.
Jeremy Schumacher: And even for people who I think I work with religious drama.
Kathleen Teisl: yeah, absolutely. It's very unique.
Jeremy Schumacher: So seeing people who have a family member who's may be very religious or a different religion than they are. there's a lot of conflict is too strong of a word like a swing and a miss for connecting some of that ritual where different people need to hold space for their grief differently.
Kathleen Teisl: About me a shift in me.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, what's changed for your family for the people…
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, and I'd have to ask my husband.
Jeremy Schumacher: who you regularly what's different? I mean has there been a shift in that's noticeable to other people.
Kathleen Teisl: I will say that. For Better or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Obviously this work you do is very personal with the people you're working with…
Kathleen Teisl: Worse my children seem pretty comfortable talking about death and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but Yeah. Yeah. we celebrate the Day of the Dead more wholeheartedly or…
Kathleen Teisl: sometimes I'm even like finding myself being like
Kathleen Teisl: And then I'm like wait, what am I doing? I'm doing the thing that…
Jeremy Schumacher: is there, any kind of external if
Kathleen Teisl: but they very freely and openly and I realize I'm talking about my kids not myself, but it's just an observation. I've had recently they very freely and…
Jeremy Schumacher: yep.
Kathleen Teisl: openly talk about Death their papa tom being dead. they're not afraid to use those words. They're not afraid to use strong language.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: They're not afraid to ask questions. They want to know where what happens to your body and they're asking the big questions and I think that this is a crucial time for me to facilitate curiosity and wonder about this versus shutting it down…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Kathleen Teisl: because I can see how Parents do that. I can empathize it is uncomfortable and I'm going out a little bit of a tangent here, but sometimes my kids will even say mom, maybe I'll be dead and it's like don't say that, I want to just shut it down, but I also don't want to send this message of we can't talk about that.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: So it's definitely influenced my parenting.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Kathleen Teisl: Where I try to have the door really open to that and just facilitate that again their own curiosity. I'm not telling them what to believe or how to believe or what to think. I want them to.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: Come to those realizations on their own as far as any shift in…
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Kathleen Teisl: who I am.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I don't know how to answer that. I mean, I think I for me spirituality is really important, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a part of death do the work.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I want to make that clear. You don't have to be a spiritual person to want to work with a death Doula. I personally am and so I think it has enhanced my feelings of connection to Source or spirit
Kathleen Teisl: I think that's the probably biggest reason that I am fascinated by death is because it in my experience in my perspective is the closest we get to
Kathleen Teisl: God if you will, however, I think of it more as Source or Spirit them using word God and so that's part of the privilege is being in that being with dying people is being with God for me. So I think I'm a more spiritual person. I'm probably less
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: taught up or stressed out by Day to day stressors. I mean I'm human but I think that
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: I think I'm able to take a lot more with stride. I think that learning about death has taught me not to take life. So seriously all the time. I am a pretty sincere person. I like to do important work,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: and I like to have deep important conversations, but it's also a reminder of this is over in a blink of an eye.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: Let's have fun. and laugh and let go of all these things we think are so important that at least it helps me ask that question to myself how important really is this and again, that's just having this kind of different perspective.
00:40:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, no, and I think that's important. I see a lot of that with working with religious trauma where people are. reshaping or leaving a toxic theology or high control religion and it's like for some people it's moving away from religion entirely for some people it's figuring out…
Kathleen Teisl: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: what was maybe good and healthy in there and…
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: what they want to connect with and so we have a lot of these conversations around If you thought heaven was the thing and now you don't think that anymore that changes your perspective on time and…
Kathleen Teisl: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: what you want to do with your time on this planet and…
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, yeah, that's a good I like to think about.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's like that prioritization I think is really important for people a lot of us.
Kathleen Teisl: our values where our value systems come from and…
Kathleen Teisl: so you mentioned someone…
Jeremy Schumacher: Feel that Daily Grind of I need to respond to this email or…
Kathleen Teisl: who is taught to believe in heaven and…
Jeremy Schumacher: else and realizing that we are on a rock that's spinning 600,000 miles through space and…
Kathleen Teisl: and then you have to earn your way into heaven and…
Jeremy Schumacher: you shouldn't exist.
Kathleen Teisl: you have to align with a certain set of standards and…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's a different perspective.
Kathleen Teisl: of behavior conduct in order to do that.
Kathleen Teisl: what I'm getting at is how freeing it can be to reevaluate where our value systems come from. And I think that being in with the dying also. offers that perspective too
Kathleen Teisl: maybe we are free and inherently good and we each have our own inherent value system and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: that may or may not align exactly to society standards and that in itself is really cool work and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: and to think about so
Jeremy Schumacher: I also like doing the third order work. So all this stuff is fascinating last question. You've been super generous with your time, and I appreciate Doing some of this heavy work whether it's trauma or…
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah. a couple of things and…
Jeremy Schumacher: it's grief or its end of life stuff. How do you kind of take care of yourself?
Kathleen Teisl: I'll start with my sort of philosophy about it,…
Jeremy Schumacher: What do you do to manage and…
Kathleen Teisl: which is that I
Jeremy Schumacher: deal with some of the maybe secondary or…
Kathleen Teisl: Do no good to the world.
Jeremy Schumacher: tertiary trauma that comes up with it and…
Jeremy Schumacher: some of holding this space that can be really heavy.
Kathleen Teisl: by carrying Or embodying the pain of other people.
Jeremy Schumacher: How do you take care of yourself? What do you do to manage that and
Kathleen Teisl: that Now there's a difference between empathy and taking on obviously someone else's pain. And so I think I have established over the years a pretty solid boundary there. I don't have to put much effort into it anymore not to say that once in a while certain things kind of trigger you or get you or a little bit stick with you a little bit more than something else, but overall, I strongly believe that,…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: my role in people's lives in the work that I do is And forgive the hippie language, but to maintain a higher frequency and I can hold your pain and be in the dark with you and also hold a higher frequency because I don't think that it's beneficial to you or anyone else if I come down with you. I hope that makes some. ounce of sense it makes sense in my mind, so that's kind of a philosophy that I hold on strongly too and then in terms of Taking care of myself. I mean mindfulness presence being with my kids they are the funniest goofiest creatures ever and that is a huge help in terms of transitioning from the work day to home life…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: because they're like
Kathleen Teisl: me I have joy and stress and all a couple other things I do is I paint and watercolor a lot. I mean, that's my thing. that's right. Now my therapy that's my flow state. So I do a ton of that. being in nature nurturing deep connections with the people that I love
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
00:45:00
Kathleen Teisl: Those are all the things that keep me well.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Kathleen Teisl: yeah, so I have my website again, which is bearing Witness mke.com You can also find me on the shore side therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: I love that. Thank you for sharing. Kathleen if people are interested in learning more about you if they're interested in the work you do or they want to connect with you. Where can they go to find you?
Kathleen Teisl: 
Kathleen Teisl: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, We'll have all that stuff in the show notes for people so it's easy to find. Kathleen thanks so much for coming on it was awesome to get to chat with you today.
Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners, thank you for tuning in again this week. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.
Meeting ended after 00:46:07 👋