Your Therapist Needs Therapy 58 - Navigating Sexual Shame with Caitlin Weber

Jeremy is joined this week by fellow licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Sex Therapist, Caitlin Weber. Caitlin Weber discusses her journey into the mental health field and her path to becoming a systems-oriented therapist with a focus on sex therapy. Jeremy and Caitlin discuss the pervasive influence of religious norms on cultural attitudes towards sex and mental health, noting the lasting impact these harmful expectations can have on clients. They also emphasize the importance of comprehensive sex education and the ongoing effort to combat sexual shame and misinformation. ​​It’s a very ADHD brain type of chat, and we talk about being neurodivergent and the intersectionality of mental health, sexuality, and neurodivergence. Also, happy Pride everyone!

To learn more about Caitlin and her practice, head over to webertherapy.com and keep an eye out for her on Instagram soon!

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube.

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We have new merch for Pride month, so check that out! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

Your Therapist Needs Therapy - Caitlin Weber (2024-06-05 13:34 GMT-5) - Transcript
Attendees
Caitlin Weber, Jeremy Schumacher
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't say this is strange a little bit. Let's start in the transcript already. most of the editing I have to do is volume and stuff. It's very little content or my dog will come in and bark or something because I'm recording in my basement.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: So it's not really ever been on content. It's just that stuff. So I check with you when we're done recording. And again, there's that little bit of delay between when we record and when it'll actually get published that if there's something you're like, I don't think I handled that. I didn't like my answer. Can we cut it? There's always time to do that.
Caitlin Weber: Okay, good to know. Thank you.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we got safety net. I'm a mid-sized podcast. I don't know what that means. I get about 500 downloads a month, which is not nothing…
Caitlin Weber: That's awesome.
Jeremy Schumacher: but is not big enough to have advertising or anything. So if you want to swear or whatever we can be ourselves. there's no sensoring or concern about that. So it's kind of nice to be small enough still where I can just kind of do it whatever I want.
Caitlin Weber: That is amazing. Yeah, that's really good.
Jeremy Schumacher: So my whole thing is I will hit record introduce the podcast introduce you and we'll do it in one take. Cool. Let me hit record and…
Caitlin Weber: All right. Awesome. I'm ready.
Jeremy Schumacher: we'll get started.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy the podcast for two mental health professionals talk about their mental health Journeys and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher licensed marriage and family therapist. We have new merch for pride month and some cool stuff going on over there patreon subscribers can get some free merch they can get shoutouts on episodes. They can see the actual video of the podcast not just the audio. So there's some cool perks. If you're interested in supporting the show head over to patreon if you're like me and you listen to all of five podcasts and you don't want to do patreon just subscribe that helps too. Are my professional therapist?
Jeremy Schumacher: Therapy, so to catchy exciting topics today. I'm joined by Weber Caitlin.
Caitlin Weber: Thank you so much for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: Thanks for joining me.
Caitlin Weber: I'm excited.
Jeremy Schumacher: You're not the first sex therapist. We have some other professional overlaps that will get into so I'm thrilled to have you on. So I start with the same question every episode.
Caitlin Weber: Definitely. Yep.
Jeremy Schumacher: How did you get into the mental health field?
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, so I became a therapy therapist. So I started researching ways to do that discovered. I wanted to be a very systems oriented therapist.
Caitlin Weber: And did a lot of home family work in different counties in Wisconsin to do that. So got really good at working with families and children as well teenagers, too. And then started my private practice during my post-grad era. So I've been doing Private Practice in addition to that work since about 20. Let's see 2015 is one of my private practice started and then I've just been doing Private Practice since about 2017. So
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, very cool. That's a really succinct summary which I love but I have a bunch of questions already. So yeah, you mentioned is kind of backwards. I think a lot of times people get into therapy and then kind of find afterwards their Niche Focus area. What was it for you that was kind of like, I know I want to do Sex Therapy.
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, I was in therapy which is the topic of your podcast. I was in my own therapy session and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah,…
Caitlin Weber: my early 20s, I had graduated college and…
Jeremy Schumacher: which is so cool.
Caitlin Weber: my therapist needs therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think. a lot of we both have the same licensure lmfts licensed marriage family therapist needs therapy and…
Caitlin Weber: It don't think too hard. And I said I would love to help people with their sex lives,…
Jeremy Schumacher: marriage and family therapist needs the
Caitlin Weber: but I don't think that's a thing and she's like, yeah it is. So then she got me whole searching down the different Paths of how to become a sex therapist.
Caitlin Weber: So went from there.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Absolutely. Yeah, there's definitely a lack of professionals.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: I mean there's not enough mental health professionals as is and then there's not enough sex therapist needs therapy acronyms that come after people's names and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah, and It's interesting in your story that you didn't know this profession existed. Because again, I think I work with religious trauma.
Caitlin Weber: stuff. So just my advice to clients is That people a little bit look at their website
Jeremy Schumacher: So I'm gonna soapbox for a second here. But to say I'm American culture is
Caitlin Weber: if they have any specific training personally. I'm a* certified which is the American Association of sexuality Educators counselors and therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Strongly been influenced by white patriarchical Conservative Christian values and so talking about Stacks from you…
Caitlin Weber: amen
Jeremy Schumacher: William Penn the founder of Pennsylvania and the Quakers and all of that puritanical stuff. that's kind of baked into American history and that has really still affected a lot of people's access to mental health care and even for people who are looking to get into a profession like this just knowing that it's a thing that exists because sex is and putting this in the quotes for the podcast listeners a private topic and…
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: so it's one of those things that just doesn't get discussed openly to even know that's a profession you could go into
Caitlin Weber: my gosh absolutely and I was super excited to learn that you specialize in religious trauma because there is like you said so much overlap between Sex Therapy and religious trauma and like you said, the religious History of the United States is it's a fascinating one and I loved learning a long time ago that What cereal is it? I think it's just plain old Corn Flakes that were invented to deter masturbation, because they were like you need a really Bland breakfast and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yep.
Caitlin Weber: then you won't want to masturbate because masturbation is going to send you to help so
Jeremy Schumacher: And spicy foods makes you masturbate apparently was what the thought yeah.
Caitlin Weber: right
Jeremy Schumacher: That's the Kellogg's company literally is there their patriarch from back in the day was a strong Puritan and believed that masturbation was a blight upon the land and therefore has the serial Empire. It doesn't make a lot of sense when you summarize it that way.
Caitlin Weber: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: But yeah, it's these ideas, some of these things that's still kind of linger and hang out there. Not just that Kellogg's is still a profitable company, but that
Jeremy Schumacher: masturbation is a problem. First of all, but also these unscientific things about what caused it or it's just a very unscientific approach to human sexuality.
Caitlin Weber: and so much of that lingers and just infiltrates and get since internalized in people and I always say to folks I will always be gainfully employed because Just helping people dig out the sexual shame and the sexual misinformation is always going to be plentiful work. So
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yes and with the rise of the internet. plenty more information is available, but lots of bad information and misinformation is what people unfortunately find their way into because that's what kind of gets headlines and gets people's attention still is sex as A tea kind of topic. Let's be Loki ashamed about it instead of there's a lot of science. There's a lot of things we know and understand that are helpful. I've had several sex Educators on the podcast and…
Caitlin Weber: 100%
Jeremy Schumacher: even just like the pushback on comprehensive sex ed in our current Society is boggling.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, it's really sad just the stuff that I hear about what people learn in both public and private schools and what people don't learn these kids desperately need.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Accurate information and a safe place and safe people to talk to because most of them are going to develop very sexual urges and healthy. That's great. But you have to know what to do with all that, right?
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah,…
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I often say contextually when it makes sense. This isn't just a fun Mantra of mine I often refer to masturbation as the OG stress relief it's been a thing for people they've used for stress relief for regulation of their system for connection,…
Caitlin Weber: A hundred percent. I am like the masturbation just I don't know what to call myself. I'm obsessed with masturbation just in my clinical practice and…
Jeremy Schumacher: throughout all of human civilization and…
Caitlin Weber: in supervising people like all my supervisors who are becoming sex therapist needs therapy.
Jeremy Schumacher: the idea that it's a bad or wrong thing is a relatively recent in all of human history development.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah. yeah, you're not wrong.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah and you summarize that wonderfully in 20 seconds there, but that can be months if not years of therapy for all that stuff.
Jeremy Schumacher: And along with sexual shame. I see a lot with clients like This idea of It should be more accessible. They shouldn't feel the way they feel and…
Caitlin Weber: No, it's not gonna be one ketamine session.
Jeremy Schumacher: it kind of always highlight especially for my religious trauma clients. Fit in your timeline. I love talking to other neurodivergent…
Caitlin Weber: No, nothing wrong with kind of mean sessions…
Jeremy Schumacher: If you were raised in Purity culture, you have 25 30 years for a lot of folks or neurodivergent therapist.
Caitlin Weber: but it's not going to be one of those such lens. It's not going to be a magic pill.
Jeremy Schumacher: more thinking about sex in one way.
Caitlin Weber: It's gonna be a process and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's hard to undo that there is no magical light switch that you can just flip.
Caitlin Weber: Sometimes you need eight to 12 sex therapy sessions other times people do need Thumb spread out over a few years,…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's like hey all that stuff's gone now.
Caitlin Weber: but I'm here for it and I absolutely** love my job. So yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Caitlin Weber: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of neurodivergent folks are drawn to careers both in comedy and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so I know you also work with neurodivergent folks and…
Caitlin Weber: in therapy, so I find that to be very true and…
Jeremy Schumacher: our neurodivergent yourself where's that fit in your history?
Caitlin Weber: more and more true as I live as a therapist need.
Caitlin Weber: S therapy on misdiagnosed or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Caitlin Weber: told we are gasless essentially. We were told no, it's really all in your head. you're passing your classes. You're doing great in school.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: So you're fine. So a lot of us just fell through the cracks, especially if we got through school and…
Jeremy Schumacher: I was diagnosed the last year my postgrad so 22 or…
Caitlin Weber: we're pretty good students, but I've always had ADHD and…
Jeremy Schumacher: probably 23 at that time,…
Caitlin Weber: it was really validating to get that diagnosis last summer actually.
Jeremy Schumacher: which is I kind of highlight that just because it's a very inconvenient time to get diagnosed just as I'm finishing my schooling.
Caitlin Weber: So I've only been diagnosed for a year. It's just been a really important year for me to learn more about…
Jeremy Schumacher: And honestly,…
Caitlin Weber: how this affects me more about…
Jeremy Schumacher: I didn't do anything with it for a long time. It was just one of those things that like I knew I had ADHD before I went into to see my therapist.
Caitlin Weber: who I am and it's helped me become a better clinician as well and more neurodivergence affirming to both friends and family also and as well have ADHD you said when were you diagnosed?
00:15:00
Jeremy Schumacher: The church did my religious trauma work myself and re I don't know got in touch with my body. I think it's one of those things where I didn't realize how much stuff I was holding with my own religious trauma that was getting in the way of understanding my own diagnosis and I would say in the last Five or six years the way I treat it and the way I respond to it myself has changed a lot.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I was raised So for people who are in, issin. Yes. it's a big deal in Wisconsin. It's named at Wisconsin. It's the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. It is the smallest and most conservative of all Lutheran branches.
Jeremy Schumacher: As it's interesting, it's one of those things…
Caitlin Weber: That's amazing.
Jeremy Schumacher: where my ADHD similar…
Caitlin Weber: I'm super happy for you.
Jeremy Schumacher: what you said …
Jeremy Schumacher: we've always had ADHD just because you get the diagnosis. It doesn't mean it's a new thing.
Caitlin Weber: That you're treating it now and…
Caitlin Weber: that you're understanding it more and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So my brain just never quite fit and…
Caitlin Weber: that you're recovering from the trauma the religious and…
Jeremy Schumacher: even though I was in a lot of privileged spaces as a white male in a Christian setting in America,…
Caitlin Weber: asking what church Jeremy's done.
Caitlin Weber: Also is my wife.
Jeremy Schumacher: which is very privileged. I always had this f*** the law middle finger to the law kind of like thing and there was no reason that I wasn't kind of like taking advantage or Get in those privileges that come along with my status and it took me a long time to understand right because I was neurodivergent and my brain was always bumping into these rules and these restrictions that did not work for me.
Jeremy Schumacher: So yeah, it's been an interesting Journey. There are things that I think intellectually I knew about it and understood in my early 20s through grad school and even my undergrad a little bit where I was I'm pretty sure I'm ADHD. But then get in some of the trauma out on my own and doing my own healing and therapy and leaving the church and all that stuff really changed my relationship to my own body and then understanding my ADHD through that.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: That's amazing. Yeah, that's so powerful and thinking I'm sure you have a lot of these same experiences but thinking back to our educations in elementary school and middle school and high school and Beyond it was just like why can't I finish these books …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: why can't I do the homework like everybody else?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and…
Caitlin Weber: Why can't I focus in a college lecture for more than the first 15 minutes …
Jeremy Schumacher: and you highlighted I think socially the way that predominantly ADHD diagnosis is happening in middle school or…
Caitlin Weber: just many times that I think I knew the answer…
Jeremy Schumacher: high school.
Caitlin Weber: but are our culture and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And so the way that children are socialized either male or…
Caitlin Weber: our mental health culture at the time was pushing back against…
Jeremy Schumacher: males are getting diagnosed a lot more than females were…
Caitlin Weber: what they called overdiagnosing ADHD and they were like, we're cutting down on this.
Jeremy Schumacher: because the diagnosis is written in a way that highlights hyperactivity as anything else…
Caitlin Weber: It was like the opioid epidemic we're not diagnosing people. It's ADHD anymore and…
Jeremy Schumacher: because hyperactivity gets in the way of schooling as opposed to being internal thing that kids struggle with It's not a problem that I was hyperactive.
Caitlin Weber: I'm like, okay. some of us have it and it would be real helpful know that and have it treated so
Jeremy Schumacher: There's a problem. I was in school while being hyperactive and so it's one of those things where there are a lot of people. I see a lot of millennial aged professionals who
Jeremy Schumacher: Are either just got diagnosed or I'm the one who's diagnosing them because what society would deem high functioning and not what the diagnosis was wired to catch so they got good grades. They got their stuff done. They just weren't healthier well adjusted about it.
Caitlin Weber: Yes.
Caitlin Weber: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: No.
Caitlin Weber: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I Got good grades, weeks ahead and homework because I was so bored that I would just work ahead. And so a lot of that stuff got masked because it was Jeremy go clap the erasers when we had a chalkboard. That's how old I am you had to go take the erasers outside. I put the flag up and down every day at all these extra jobs because I was so far ahead of my homework and if I didn't have an extra thing to do, I would start messing with other kids and be a distraction. So to me it was looking back and…
00:20:00
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, right. Yeah, I always got my stuff done via relationships.
Jeremy Schumacher: how did no one realize the kid who gets up every hour to sharpen.
Caitlin Weber: If I had a really good teacher and…
Jeremy Schumacher: His pencils probably has ADHD. He's like …
Caitlin Weber: my grades were always really good…
Jeremy Schumacher: because I had A's and…
Caitlin Weber: but I would do it through relationships.
Jeremy Schumacher: I was a teacher's kid and all these things that went into it.
Caitlin Weber: It would be like through the teacher and…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's not who the diagnosis was designed to catch so Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: I would get enough of that information, but just finishing my homework being able to put my nose in a book was always really difficult. and I wasn't the hyperactive type of kid who is bouncing out of their seat. So I really fell through the cracks. It was more in inattentive. So,
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Exactly. Yeah, just one more or many more examples of why putting little kids and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And a lot of overlap with the queer Community,…
Caitlin Weber: many boxes and…
Jeremy Schumacher: too. We're recording trade pride month.
Caitlin Weber: literally you put them in back when we were in school and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Happy Pride everybody. We will have some pride focused episodes coming up that I'm excited about.
Caitlin Weber: it's probably the same way that just put you in a box the chair was connected to the desk and…
Caitlin Weber: it was just this box we were in and we literally just like in so many boxes.
Jeremy Schumacher: but right working as a sex therapist needs
Caitlin Weber: That didn't work that didn't work that didn't help educate us. but I think ADHD people and autistic people as well are they just have so many skills and strengths that neurotypical people don't have and probably since the dawn of mankind mankind has relied on us, weirdo neurodivergent People Too come up with novel ideas and to say the truth and to lash out against Injustice and to stand up. We're very energizing I think as a neurodivergent population.
Caitlin Weber: pretty fried
Caitlin Weber: yang
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: And Yes, I use a lot of gardening analogies for mental health because it's ongoing process. There's Seasons to it. Sometimes we have to get healthier soil. Sometimes you have to dig old yucky stuff out get it out. So yeah, there's a lot of Rich metaphor in that gardening.
Caitlin Weber: But not agree more.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah and shame is the number one thing that I think we treat as therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, there's
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Caitlin Weber: therapy are planted in that Garden early in life,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, I love the idea of gardening my much more neurotypical wife is mostly the one who organizes planting and gets Harvesting on time and…
Caitlin Weber: and they're kind of like weeds and…
Jeremy Schumacher: all that stuff.
Caitlin Weber: they come up every year and multiple times a year and you have to pull them and Keep weeding for your whole life long and then keep planting things that you actually want in that Garden. So it's just a lot of tending so
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, so crazy.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, if I were to stay now,…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's not crazy. I'm rewinding a little bit.
Caitlin Weber: I could see my garden that is overgrown with weeds…
Jeremy Schumacher: This is very typical for my regular listeners to know these topics wander and…
Caitlin Weber: because I have ADHD and therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: overlap and come back but talking about religious upbringing. No one knows the wells outside of Wisconsin. It's very wisconsin-centric thing. So hilarious to talk to someone who's like hey, yeah. my partner was raised My second growing up was not semester long classes to two days of my life for sex ed one was in fourth grade.
00:25:00
Caitlin Weber: thank goodness. We found the right people.
Jeremy Schumacher: This was like an emergency sex ed because we had a girl who had Midol in her desk and my entire class this was Engrossing mystery for little 10 and 11 year old brains to be like, what is this? Why don't she have it?
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: The girls in my class found out first and refused to tell the boys. And so this was a long thing in my grade school education for what is my doll? Why do the girls know about it and we don't
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, this is a formative thing in my brain. I don't know what else I learned in fourth grade. I remember this though. And so we had a kind of impromptu sex ed where the girls went in one room, and the boys went a different room and we watched this animated video.
Caitlin Weber: This is an intense mystery.
Jeremy Schumacher: That was not anatomically correct that was full of Shame and fear mongering around sex. And that's really all I remember was. I just remember being the drawings being like that's not what a penis looks like. Why are we walking? what is this it answer our mystery about what might all was we figured that out. Later. And then eighth grade we had like that.
Jeremy Schumacher: I went to grade school in the late 90s early 2000s. We had really classic 1980s VHS sex ed tape that was full of misinformation and I would say useless and that was the whole of my sex ed. I was raised Lutheran K through 12 and that's all I ever got. Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: They didn't explain it in the video. my God. Yeah in the public so you were in a private school. Yeah, Do you start peeing yourself again?
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we had.
Caitlin Weber: was in a public school.
Caitlin Weber: We didn't get much different. We had one day in or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, we had the like.
Caitlin Weber: one class and fourth grade one class in fifth That's so I…
Jeremy Schumacher: Rose petal or…
Caitlin Weber: fifth grade and it's funny…
Jeremy Schumacher: chewed up gum analogy around sex…
Caitlin Weber: funny but It's so sad. then one in freshman year of high school. So apparently…
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: because I was recent.
Caitlin Weber: I mean people little apparently public and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I was raised in pretty culture.
Caitlin Weber: little kids they need to know what's coming and private but I'm sure yours was like even worse…
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: So all that b******* and…
Caitlin Weber: kids hit puberty worse classes and…
Caitlin Weber: puberty so early, videos themselves, and…
Jeremy Schumacher: it was like the Educators themselves our teachers and…
Caitlin Weber: 
Caitlin Weber: and They're getting periods.
Caitlin Weber: and they're oftentimes having not Turtle emissions What Dreams they're often times confused.
Caitlin Weber: and
Caitlin Weber: and kids are oftentimes very horny, yeah.
Caitlin Weber: and
Caitlin Weber: and
Caitlin Weber: and They help us grow and all but the pubertal hormones really kick in oftentimes eight nine years old 10 years old for sure by 11, Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: and I was like, hormones are around our whole lives. my** question.
Caitlin Weber: and Right eight nine.
Caitlin Weber: and…
Caitlin Weber: and…
Jeremy Schumacher: also the videos were so ashamed of talking about it that they couldn't actually explain things to us.
Caitlin Weber: when I did in whole family therapy but…
Caitlin Weber: if we had a kid. and Who was in the eight year old range?
Jeremy Schumacher: So just remember there was something about wet dreams…
Jeremy Schumacher: where this boy in the video kept washing his sheets and…
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: at the end of it all of us boys…
Jeremy Schumacher: who watched the video were the f*** was he doing all those laundry for …
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: what was that about?
Jeremy Schumacher: They didn't explain it and…
Jeremy Schumacher: neither did our teachers. So we were just kind of left with …
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: what is this?
Jeremy Schumacher: What was going on with the laundry? Why was that a thing?
Caitlin Weber: There's just Their genitals are changing their breast tissues changing.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: There's so much they need to know as normal and it's okay and everybody's gonna go through it. Unless you're taking hormone blockers, which is but yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: right and developmentally a life train a life stage for most brains that is about social connection.
Caitlin Weber: What?
Jeremy Schumacher: And so if you have this thing that you're not sure everyone else is going through or…
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, I would love to think that you…
Jeremy Schumacher: is very fear based or…
Caitlin Weber: it's been how long ago was I in elementary school a long time ago.
Jeremy Schumacher: based. It works against your natural development at that point not just physically…
Caitlin Weber: I would like to think that it's super different now,…
Jeremy Schumacher: but also mentally around This is a thing that other people are going through and…
Caitlin Weber: but I doubt it, I'm a certified sex therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: it's normal and it's good to have questions and it's good to be curious and…
00:30:00
Caitlin Weber: I would not be surprised…
Jeremy Schumacher: explore and all that stuff.
Caitlin Weber: if things had not changed very much at all.
Jeremy Schumacher: None of that was my growing up in obviously a private religious school, but I think even I'm gonna say geographically in the midwest. It's still very pretty like German polish a lot of Catholic a lot of still like Conservative Christian is the social Norm or is the privilege status and so we don't have comprehensive sex ed in public schools. It's really
Caitlin Weber: Right, right. Yeah and…
Jeremy Schumacher: it's hard for kids to get good normal healthy information in these ages.
Caitlin Weber: it comes like people learn about sex through movies and TV shows and p***. Those are the three things right and they bring in those expectations that are often times super cisgender normative heteronormative misogynistic patriarchal racist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: ableist Fatphobic all of it and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And…
Caitlin Weber: I'm like, that's a lot to unpack…
Jeremy Schumacher: I would guess your caseload…
Caitlin Weber: but let's start right?
Jeremy Schumacher: because mine is and I don't focus on Sex Therapy on a weekly basis.
Caitlin Weber: they're like Go ahead.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm correcting misinformation or old bad information around sex and intimacy and those kinds of things like what is in the cultural kind of zeitgeist around sex is usually not based on good scientific information.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yep.
Caitlin Weber: we
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, it's doing what it's supposed to be doing but there's a part of these clients who are like but this is it working for me or a big part of it isn't working for me, right they can and they're not having any pleasure during partnered sex or even during masturbation and as Emily nagaski my favorite sex educator on planet Earth the writer of come as you are and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. and again This idea of all that stuff might be in one person's brain and…
Caitlin Weber: come together.
Caitlin Weber: she is really good at explaining…
Jeremy Schumacher: you said it's a lot to unpack and…
Caitlin Weber: how ADHD,…
Jeremy Schumacher: people feel so much guilt or shame that they're not.
Caitlin Weber: what was I just saying?
Caitlin Weber: She's really good at explaining just like…
Jeremy Schumacher: There yet that they're…
Jeremy Schumacher: where they're in quotes supposed to be.
Caitlin Weber: how our expectations come from culture and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's like right you had all this bad messaging you had all this bad programming and…
Caitlin Weber: She's gonna explain everything.
Jeremy Schumacher: like what…
Caitlin Weber: Yeah having a brain part of…
Jeremy Schumacher: how could your brain do anything different than…
Caitlin Weber: where I was going with that but this is part of my brain. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: what it's doing right now?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: 
Caitlin Weber: he
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. it's on my bookshelf, which is mostly comic books and very few therapy books in my office. And so that's the stamp of approval of come as you Come together is great. she's a wonderful source of information. I spend a lot of time when I'm working with clients usually couples who are struggling with their sex life in some form or Self-defined struggling. A lot of it is resources and reading and engaging in between sessions because we're trying to make up for years of either lack of information or misinformation that clients were having. So just getting that good Baseline of here's what we know. Here's where the science and the research is.
Jeremy Schumacher: And to starting there is really helpful for people.
Caitlin Weber: I just remembered so Emily's really good at explaining how pleasure is not a big part of people's sex lives and they're overthinking it they're not embodied. They're not mindful…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: because they think that they're supposed to be having sex like what they've learned on TV and…
Jeremy Schumacher: right Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: what they've learned in films and what they've learned in mainstream garbage p*** and It's terrible sex. Of course, it's not terrible. So some of her foundations that she goes over in that I help clients identify that are missing or are you good friends with your partner? do you respect each other? There's so many people who come in for a couple therapy with me who they just disrespect each other all the time. They have total contempt for one another. They're not very good friends. They don't nurture their friendship. It's like you're not gonna want to f*** each other if your partner is not making you feel respected as a human being and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: What your best friend in the world? You're not going to want to f*** each other?
00:35:00
Caitlin Weber: Or if you are having sex that's not going to be good sex.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and the embody part I think is huge for good sex pleasurable sex…
Caitlin Weber: So you gotta have a really small friendship with a lot of respect which means we got to get a lot of patriarchy out of the room.
Jeremy Schumacher: but Our culture isn't wired to anybody experience capitalism doesn't promote that and…
Caitlin Weber: Which affects both people negatively I'm talking about Street people here straight people have way more problems.
Jeremy Schumacher: in the religious trauma spaces.
Caitlin Weber: Sorry, you're not assuming that you're straight,…
Jeremy Schumacher: There's a lot of pretty Purity culture recovery groups, but not none for men another therapist.
Caitlin Weber: but sorry to all Street people, but I feel bad for you. as Emily says the streets are not.
Jeremy Schumacher: We had one person sign up even…
Caitlin Weber: But yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: though every therapist needs
Caitlin Weber: you have to have a really good friendship and respect and you also have to have pleasure and embodiment. So these are some very Basics that are not always present.
Jeremy Schumacher: For men to acknowledge that they've been harmed by this thing. It wasn't good for them. And they will have a very active masturbation life but have no idea how to do partnered sex because they are only sex ed was born and the only way they ever know how to be relaxed enough to have an embodied experience is to not be around other people and so it's very Limiting for what it can look like and they really don't know…
Caitlin Weber: Here.
Jeremy Schumacher: how to connect with themselves in a healthy way. Let alone connect with someone else.
Caitlin Weber: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Caitlin Weber: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: So true and it's so heartbreaking. Yeah you said relaxation is One of the most necessary components to being able to have pleasure.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Caitlin Weber: It's just like you're not relaxed when you're eating food. You're not gonna enjoy your meal.
Jeremy Schumacher: When we start this gets more complex,…
Caitlin Weber: Right? I talk about food and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but like bringing trauma into it.
Caitlin Weber: sex as my biggest analogy all the time.
Jeremy Schumacher: We want to move into that rest and…
Caitlin Weber: And you can't make chocolate chip cookies without the chocolate chips and…
Jeremy Schumacher: digest response. We want to move into the parasympathetic and out of fight or flight freezer Fawn those drama responses that a lot of folks have and…
Caitlin Weber: you can't have sex without relaxation. that's how important it is. So you gotta be able to access the parasympathetic side to your nervous system,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Could have from getting undressed or could have from any specific trauma around intimacy.
Caitlin Weber: which allows the blood to flow to your genitals and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So it's just one of those things. there's a lot that goes into getting into the correct physical and…
Caitlin Weber: it allows the nitric oxide to trap the blood inside of your erectile tissue.
Jeremy Schumacher: mental space to have good. sex
Caitlin Weber: Not that you need an erection to have great sex, but it's be a perky perk
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: And could not agree more. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: and performative sex sex that is all geared around having having orgasms at the same time as your partner, all of that stuff is Right cultural Zeitgeist stuff that people get hung up on that isn't helping them actually have the sex life that they want to be having. Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: I find that a lot of people just associate during pertin sex. They also dissociate while they're eating right and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. right the
Caitlin Weber: it's like you're not actually tasting your food. You're You're not actually enjoying the sensations that are happening on your body relationally with your partner.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's a separate Rabbit Hole. no fun and no fun intended. The overlap with a lot of this with ADHD and…
Caitlin Weber: You're just associating. It's really remarkable.
Jeremy Schumacher: neurodivergent. I find really fascinating as well…
Caitlin Weber: How often it happens. So just helping people the intervention of sunset focus is really helpful to help people focus on temperature pressure and…
Jeremy Schumacher: because all of those things that we're talking about being aware of your body can be impacted by having sensory issues associated with being neurodivergent. So whether you're ASD autism spectrum or…
00:40:00
Caitlin Weber: get all of the b** thoughts that are swarming around their head about,…
Jeremy Schumacher: ADHD or you have a separate sensory processing issue in terraception knowing that you're horny knowing that you're aroused An orgasm specifically can be so helpful.
Caitlin Weber: does my butt look good right now or is my dick hard enough right now, …
Jeremy Schumacher: aroused like that might be messed up that internal message from your body to your brain can be affected But also that comes along with ADHD is so many things can get in the way of that…
Caitlin Weber: am I gonna last long enough or am I even gonna be able to get direction at all?
Jeremy Schumacher: affected by ADHD having sense three issues not like because if you're not aware you have ADHD or…
Jeremy Schumacher: 
Jeremy Schumacher: in certain things on your skin not being aware of certain things all you're not managing your ADHD. It can be so hard to kind of be in your body…
Caitlin Weber: None of that's going to help you get an…
Caitlin Weber: None of that's going to help you orgasm. None of that's going to help you even feel anything.
Jeremy Schumacher: all of that stuff can come into this because there are all these other things that affect that…
Jeremy Schumacher: 
Caitlin Weber: So we got to get all those thoughts out of the room.
Jeremy Schumacher: where I talk about with ADHD dopamine.
Caitlin Weber: They're not them out slam the door shut and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Having good consistent dopamine organically is like sex food and…
Caitlin Weber: leave the thoughts out there and…
Jeremy Schumacher: exercise. So having an organism is a great way to get dopamine.
Caitlin Weber: just be with your body be with yourself.
Jeremy Schumacher: If you're dopamine deficient or you're just regulated with your dopamine because of ADHD having an orgasm regularly somewhat consistently is a great way to get dopamine that your brain might not otherwise be producing or giving to you. So it's one of those things that sex Yeah, I believe it's Dr. Nick Wagner wrote a book called neuro queer heresies.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, another squirting example,…
Jeremy Schumacher: And I really like that.
Caitlin Weber: which is just P.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's how I generally identify…
Caitlin Weber: But yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: if someone forces me too is as neuro queer because I have a really hard time. Identifying or locking my sexuality in anywhere without noticing or acknowledging that I'm ADHD. And so Jeremy with good stimulation and regular not regular a good amount of dopamine versus dopamine deficient. Jeremy's very different. in a lot of ways
Jeremy Schumacher: and so showing up and saying I fit in this night's neat box has never been a thing that works well for me. and so it's just one of those things where again reevaluating a lot of that stuff doing my own work in therapy and getting a diagnosis, but then reevaluating or kind of having a different relationship with my diagnosis later in life here has led to a lot of these changes and also giving clients some different options for It's great that we talk about spectrums but there's a lot of intersectionality. We need to talk about too everyone sex as a spectrum is great. But also these intersectionalities of It's not just about your sexual identity or your gender identity or any of these things. It might be a physical thing. It might be that you have blood sugar issues or you have ADHD or ASD or you have other physical things going on?
Caitlin Weber: disability
Jeremy Schumacher: And so we need to talk about all those things because it's not just sexuality as a spectrum and once where you fit on that Spectrum you're there forever and it never changes like that's such a limited way to talk about it.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, that's just not true. when you talk to folks about their identities. I like to think of this image of a galaxy and they're like right now I know this about myself and I'm right here Boop, right and then they can move along so many different spectrums that they're gonna find themselves in a different alignment within that Galaxy and they can find themselves boots somewhere else in it, And my gosh you put that so well. I could just listen to that whole what you just said. I want to listen to it again. And again, it's just so well put but it's sort of like how folks with ADHD and ASD sometimes don't feel hunger and thirst. And…
Caitlin Weber: 
Caitlin Weber: So yeah, then all of a sudden they're…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: 
Caitlin Weber: they're ravenous or passing out or shaking so it's similar to that. Binary polls, it's much more complicated than that with all the intersectionalities.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. A topical question. I guess we're in pride month. Again, right everybody.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's such a weird f* time to be Talking about pride in America because on the one hand I think. big culture culture at large. It's so much more accepting of queer folks and sexuality on as a spectrum and all of these things being unique and variable.
Caitlin Weber: yeah.
Caitlin Weber: mmm
Jeremy Schumacher: And it's so unsafe politically right now to be something other than heteronormative. So I'm curious…
Caitlin Weber: My Yes, …
Jeremy Schumacher: if that's part…
Caitlin Weber: how much time do we have?
Jeremy Schumacher: what you see with clients…
Caitlin Weber: No, just kidding, but Yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: if that's something that's coming up in your office regularly…
Caitlin Weber: it definitely comes up a lot people have so much.
Jeremy Schumacher: where it's so cool to have online communities and…
Jeremy Schumacher: have Pride Fest and have a lot of this stuff be readily accessible in a way that it wasn't historically but also to have some fear and…
Caitlin Weber: Internalized hom pan phobia transphobia,…
Caitlin Weber: internalized folks can have internalized racism internalized stabilism.
Jeremy Schumacher: some very legitimate concerns about Acceptance and…
Caitlin Weber: All those intersectionalities can come up and…
Jeremy Schumacher: safety and some of these things in our culture.
Caitlin Weber: Then when you take the context of where we're at and our country and as a culture as a whole where people are literally dying. I mean there was that lovely trans kid who died. I think it was in the midwest a teenager. So sorry that I don't have their name on the tip of my tongue, but they so tragically died. I think it was this maybe last year in a bathroom. They were just killed for being who they are and for expressing themselves. That's still happening today, Matthew Shepard violence and
00:45:00
Caitlin Weber: okay. Uh-huh. Yeah. Thank you.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think next Benedict was The story you're talking about. and even Soap box for a second here obviously bullied physically assaulted and then the police investigation found no wrongdoing for the kids to involved for the school.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, and the two examples of trans and…
Jeremy Schumacher: When we talk about systemic Injustice and…
Caitlin Weber: gay folks…
Jeremy Schumacher: we talk about some of these things that are in grains like it's ingrained.
Caitlin Weber: who have been murdered are both white people.
Jeremy Schumacher: We all as human beings have implicit biases and…
Caitlin Weber: And the people who are people of color…
Jeremy Schumacher: culturally we don't have Being a straight white CIS person you have a lot more safeguards from systems like the police like the medical system…
Caitlin Weber: who are trans or queer gay not to mention neurodivergent disabled, right the intersectionality of all that they get killed and…
Jeremy Schumacher: then if you don't fit in that privileged space,…
Caitlin Weber: much higher rates much higher numbers.
Jeremy Schumacher: you don't have those same safeguards.
Caitlin Weber: It's much more dangerous for them. So I like to remember and also remind my clients who have privilege go to Pride be out there because we're probably not going to get murdered. I mean there were Matthew Shepard and next did get murdered but it's much more common for people of color to be at physical risk of violence and harm and death. So yeah,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: I mean really scary Times Really polarized times.
Caitlin Weber: And also all the more reason to be proud of who we are and going to pridefest is so important for People's First Pride Fest and first prize, celebrating pride month is one of the most important experiences like metamorphosizing or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: I say it metamorphosizing experiences for queer people to realize I am not alone there is strength in numbers, like look around people are expressing themselves. So freely people are dancing and they're celebrating and they're just being free and safe and happy that's how we should be all day every day. So people who say why do we have a pride month? Why don't we have a straight pride month? It's like because you don't need one. You need one. It's just exactly.
Caitlin Weber: 
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: right
Jeremy Schumacher: That's the other 11 months of the year.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I like to highlight when it makes sense the history of Pride start out as a protest as a response to police brutality attacking the gay community and The first pride festival was a protest it wasn't to Celebration. It was a protest and so it's grown from that and I think that Heritage and those people who have come before us generationally celebrating that and also acknowledging that
Jeremy Schumacher: This fight This is still a thing of if you're an ally to show up.
Caitlin Weber: Definitely, absolutely and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's not just vote such a show up in the voting booth,…
Caitlin Weber: thank you to Marsha P Johnson and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but it's also show up to Pride get numbers show people the folks in Orlando…
Caitlin Weber: all of the other Brave original. I mean poor people have been around forever,…
Jeremy Schumacher: who are lighting up the bridges because the city won't do it.
Caitlin Weber: but the first Riot or…
Jeremy Schumacher: So they're getting these flashlights and having different colored flashlights.
Caitlin Weber: protest of Pride and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So the bridges have rainbows on them like that.
Caitlin Weber: how it became yearly celebration.
Jeremy Schumacher: Those are the things that we need.
Caitlin Weber: Thank you so much to those early pioneers and…
Jeremy Schumacher: We need the queer Community to have support in that and…
Caitlin Weber: rest in power.
Jeremy Schumacher: we also need allies and people to show up and support the queer community in that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for Yeah, and so, I mean that the study of human sexuality is also so fascinating because you see these things like how other cultures historically have handled sexuality that this gender binary binary that we've pretended is normal for a while now is not a forever thing. It's a relatively recent thing. Often in history cultures that make a big deal about gender until you hit puberty. It really wasn't a thing for a lot of kids.
00:50:00
Caitlin Weber: Yup, absolutely couldn't have said it better myself and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So sexuality is an Avenue to learn about a lot of this stuff and…
Caitlin Weber: just the sort of bubble that we live in the American culture.
Jeremy Schumacher: studying human sexuality is a way to kind of expand some Horizons of some of these words around intersectionality and…
Caitlin Weber: It's such a bizarre one, right? We actually live in a very bizarre sexual culture like you mentioned at the very beginning of this podcast the puritanical nature the religion being embedded and…
Jeremy Schumacher: things for people who are listening or new or challenging words. this is an interesting Avenue. There's a lot of Rich history and things that we can learn and…
Caitlin Weber: everybody is sex lives. Nelly Cannon was one of my supervisors when I was becoming a certified sex therapist the intervention of who's at the foot of your bed.
Jeremy Schumacher: pull by just studying human sexuality throughout history.
Caitlin Weber: Sometimes it's like people need to kick Jesus out of the room so that they can have great Flags. Sometimes they're parents. Sometimes it's siblings. Sometimes it's classed me. sometimes it's the president you need to kick all these people out of your rooms that you can have privacy and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: have a great sex life.
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, just roleplay.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay, yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, unless you're into it, if you're happy, Jesus is watching. He's a Voyer.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, I don't have a great segue from there. Lots of jokes about my Jesus costume that I have.
Jeremy Schumacher: Caitlin if people want to learn more about your work if they're interested in working with you, where do they go? How do they find you?
Caitlin Weber: Yeah, I would recommend they go to my website, which is Therapy.com. I am Caitlin Weber, and that's pretty much what I have out there right now. I plan to get an Instagram up and running this year. So then I'll have that out there. And then if you go on my website, you can find the contact me information and either shoot me an email or use the message message portal on there and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Caitlin Weber: I'm pretty quick to respond to email. I hate phone calls because I have ADHD and I'm an introvert so I don't pick up the phone but Shoot me an email and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, for sure and your virtual only. Correct.
Caitlin Weber: we will arrange it and we can always schedule a phone call or schedule a session.
Caitlin Weber: And currently virtual only I'm probably gonna start to get one day a week in person and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Caitlin Weber: then probably build from there. So went virtual only during the covid pandemic and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Very cool and we will have those links in the show notes.
Caitlin Weber: now will slowly be offering both.
Jeremy Schumacher: So they're nice and easy for to find. Everyone knows Wellness with jeremy.com is all my other Pursuits and Social Media stuff all links from there. Caitlin, thanks for joining me today. This has been great.
Jeremy Schumacher: And all the wonderful listeners out there. Thanks for tuning in. We'll be back next week with another new episode.
Caitlin Weber: Thank you so much. I loved it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Take care of everyone.
Caitlin Weber: All right.
Jeremy Schumacher: Right my recording button go.
Meeting ended after 00:53:16 👋