Your Therapist Needs Therapy
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy
Your Therapist Needs Therapy 43 - How to Heal Deeply with David Hayden
Jeremy is joined this week by the incredibly insightful David Hayden. Jeremy and David talk about growing up with the desire to help others from an early age, the various chapters of growth therapists go through with their clients, and David’s winding path with different modalities that allow for deeper healing with clients.
You can learn more about David and his work at his website, Natural Mind Counseling, and be sure to give him a follow on Instagram.
Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find more media from him on YouTube or Instagram.
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Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.
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Your Therapist Needs Therapy - David Hayden (2024-02-21 12:01 GMT-6) - Transcript
Attendees
David Hayden, Jeremy Schumacher
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
David Hayden: Really see a lot of change in clients that felt inaccessible before and then parts kind of came along and not too and it's kind of been the ongoing process of consistently getting refinement in those areas.
David Hayden: Yeah, totally.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Exactly. And I mean,…
David Hayden: Complete the pie are our offer a very particular space that I'm not just randomly throwing them together.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: totally
David Hayden: yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: totally do you and…
David Hayden: At certain points right now,…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah, totally.
David Hayden: Okay, yeah.
David Hayden: I resonate with that and…
David Hayden: Mmm Yeah
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah, I think I'd also be kind of curious…
David Hayden: right
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: check
David Hayden: Yeah, I get that.
David Hayden: I guess that this is also an important piece of…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: was
David Hayden: Absolutely, it's great.
David Hayden: To get to that place right…
David Hayden: Great.
David Hayden: Sure.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah, I mean so I grew up in a really deeply religious household.
David Hayden: The traditional pews Pastor sit down that experience and…
David Hayden: Church, so I've kind of done the Gambit in terms of those experiences.
David Hayden: How I approached therapy and…
David Hayden: What's good? Yeah.
David Hayden: Missouri Senate
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Okay.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: right
David Hayden: Yep.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Definitely. I mean,…
David Hayden: It was really interesting…
David Hayden: Totally I mean,…
David Hayden: Is for clients of your brain is set up in this way.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: totally
David Hayden: I would totally agree with that.
David Hayden: Work and…
David Hayden: Those messages of being taught that the body's evil or…
David Hayden: For sure.
David Hayden: right
David Hayden: Yep.
David Hayden: Yep.
David Hayden: Really?
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: 100% And I mean I love the piece that you said about safety too…
David Hayden: Those nuances and…
David Hayden: Yes.
David Hayden: Yeah, and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: totally
David Hayden: yeah.
David Hayden: Yes.
David Hayden: Yeah, and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: And I think it's also in that too right that you need multiple people right like there.
David Hayden: Actions within that and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: right
David Hayden: for sure.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Absolutely.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: When I think that…
David Hayden: And I think one of the things that I've really discovered in my religious trauma groups is it's a place for people to just ReDiscover that the world might hold a little bit more safety than…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Absolutely, and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Agreed. Yeah,…
David Hayden: People just come to therapy with knowing that that's a thing…
David Hayden: Yeah, and…
David Hayden: Really difficult for people really really difficult.
David Hayden: Agreed and…
David Hayden: Of course.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Okay.
David Hayden: Yeah, and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: right
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: That's right.
David Hayden: Yep, that's accurate.
David Hayden: right
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah, I…
David Hayden: Years, I've been with my therapist needs therapy.
David Hayden: And my systems asking for someone more and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: And I think the thing that I've been really surprised is that people are willing to show up and…
David Hayden: will people show up for that…
David Hayden: Hold that space and…
David Hayden: mmm
David Hayden: cool
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: mmm
David Hayden: Yep. Yeah, I…
David Hayden: Third the decriminalization of psychedelics is we have a program that people go through in order to get certified in that and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Agree, yeah,…
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: Yeah.
David Hayden: You can just head over to my website natural mind counseling.com.
David Hayden: Yeah, thanks so…
David Hayden: the pieces of that is clients…
David Hayden: I like also the piece that you said that it is not just one way right there is also that cognitive element that comes in too that when a client is for example,…
David Hayden: mean I love that piece that you said also finding different therapist therapy other times that massage therapy.
David Hayden: Yeah, I feel like I want to almost dispel the myth that we're ever done tinkering right like that.
David Hayden: really normalizing that right that the helplessness or…
David Hayden: I also really value that piece of just neurobiology right that as we are talking about these things.
David Hayden: It's been great.
David Hayden: I think it really came from my love of attachment work actually,…
David Hayden: I mean,…
David Hayden: I think a lot of clients Wallace and…
David Hayden: I think also just taking the feelings too and…
David Hayden: I think that that's something that a lot of clients also seek me out for too and…
David Hayden: I mean I would say that part of…
David Hayden: I think also one of the things that I've discovered in some of the clients that I see is and…
David Hayden: in the sense of my brain consistently needs novelty in that…
David Hayden: I think I see that same experience for my own for myself too.
David Hayden: where you're not having to do the exact same schedule every single day that you get that sense of Freedom there.
David Hayden: how certain clients just find you and…
David Hayden: think that I don't know about you…
David Hayden: but people desperately want that healing and…
David Hayden: how do I encourage those things too?
David Hayden: then nervous system component too that when you leave or…
David Hayden: that way I think one of the things that's been really cool as part of the intensives is here in Oregon.
David Hayden: that way that's something that feels very up and important.
David Hayden: And I really valued the conversation and…
David Hayden: for example,…
David Hayden: why I moved away from certain jobs earlier in my career to Private Practice was I love that sensitivity about myself.
David Hayden: I think we're in a really cool position in the sense that…
David Hayden: I don't do couples therapy…
David Hayden: that way and…
David Hayden: if that was something like…
David Hayden: I guess this has been part of my experience and…
David Hayden: someone that will drop in with me in that way and…
David Hayden: also just those social skills, you…
David Hayden: how I've been exposed to deconstruction work is a lot of deconstruction work.
David Hayden: not having therapist needs.
David Hayden: who come to me…
David Hayden: but in my grad school training there was a lot of warning about being too eclectic and…
David Hayden: but having no idea…
David Hayden: comment on just like even having a space to talk about this psychedelic experiences so that they don't feel marginalized in that way that there is space to try…
David Hayden: how you kind of got to that place…
David Hayden: so a lot of clients we would consistently comment on doing the 50 minute session or…
David Hayden: where they're like,…
David Hayden: all the twists and…
David Hayden: because I think that there is this element…
David Hayden: I'm also on Instagram natural mind counseling on Instagram as well.
David Hayden: basing for me.
David Hayden: because it doesn't resonate with me in that way.
David Hayden: I was actually born and…
David Hayden: there's that religion background that starts coming up and…
David Hayden: how to pick up the pieces of their lives after.
David Hayden: How do we work with that?
David Hayden: the overwhelm or…
David Hayden: I have been out of religion for 15 years 25 years and…
David Hayden: the body symbol or…
David Hayden: a lot of times when you're in a high control group.
David Hayden: turns that we took in that too.
David Hayden: I would say that I mean for myself my journey of working with religious trauma also comes out of a lived experience too being turned away from my church or…
David Hayden: because I've also found that for myself right of it for my own nervous system.
David Hayden: and here is that can actually
David Hayden: which I think is a component of…
David Hayden: you're asked to leave in a church like that shatters a lot of the internal models that you have and…
David Hayden: die like we often think …
David Hayden: I don't know
David Hayden: raised in Minnesota.
David Hayden: the uncertainty that you feel as you're trying to find new people to connect to or…
David Hayden: that we are bad in some sort of way Cuts us off from some beautiful resources that the body wants to offer us and…
David Hayden: I love that.
David Hayden: I find that clients get a lot of value when I'm also basing those within neurobiology components.
David Hayden: if this is also fits yours there's different chapters,…
David Hayden: A lot of when I was starting doing work in private practice was working with elements of codependency and…
David Hayden: where we can look at safety and…
David Hayden: So, not super far from you in that way I grew up in a Lutheran model.
David Hayden: How do we find this line to play with in that and…
David Hayden: And that's all I don't know for myself a really important piece as you're evolving.
David Hayden: I love showing up with people and
David Hayden: But each of these are offering a different layer that is super helpful and…
David Hayden: how my own ADHD show up is I need the novelty of I haven't seen this puzzle in this way before and…
David Hayden: a lot of the providers that I've had to be underground for these things are coming above ground and…
David Hayden: whether that's coming from an LGT cue perspective or…
David Hayden: internal knowing that even…
David Hayden: then service centers that those providers have to work in.
David Hayden: because we're not doing insurance without or…
David Hayden: I think that there's been this thing for me as my own career as evolved is hearing from other therapist.
David Hayden: then my journey through religion, you…
David Hayden: We've decriminalized a lot of psychedelic experiences too.
David Hayden: it starts connecting a lot of the dots for you of I've lived this and…
David Hayden: The only thing that you're encouraged to do is to deal and…
David Hayden: I think sometimes with religious trauma.
David Hayden: We'll look at…
David Hayden: And you can check me out on either one of those platforms.
David Hayden: though the bad church was being said they're safe or…
David Hayden: we are holding it through …
David Hayden: I love that,…
David Hayden: We're talking about things that are set up as certain structures within us,…
David Hayden: how have you thought about things and…
David Hayden: there's always just that moment when in those labels get to fall off?
David Hayden: I like to have two clients and…
David Hayden: There's this element of people wanting to lean into Community,…
David Hayden: you…
David Hayden: because it doesn't fit this very prescriptive medical model.
David Hayden: there are chapters in my private practice…
David Hayden: So we have a wealth of people that have gone through the certification process to be a certified provider…
David Hayden: when clients tell me stories or…
David Hayden: the 55 minutes session.
David Hayden: led me all the way to the place of moving to California and…
David Hayden: what they've been taught.
David Hayden: I know and…
David Hayden: that's coming from you…
David Hayden: just trying to kind of throw things together.
David Hayden: what are the body gestures or…
David Hayden: find how to actually pursue your interest and…
David Hayden: And one of the things that I've seen people doing as this as consistently evolved as doing an intensive and…
David Hayden: how do you again find safety in that?
David Hayden: Right? …
David Hayden: hang out with those members,…
David Hayden: I'm also on a platform for meditation called insight timer and…
David Hayden: how do we change not just those thought patterns…
David Hayden: if we're talking about the different circuits of the brain and…
David Hayden: However, you want to frame that.
David Hayden: think about the world in this way.
David Hayden: their comforting or…
David Hayden: leaning too heavily on the somatics.
David Hayden: then I want an hour break between those there's a reset piece that I really need and…
David Hayden: So there's ways that we spend time and…
David Hayden: And so for me one of the things that has been I think really really important as I've consistently done private practice work is…
David Hayden: seeing a lot of men show up in that and…
David Hayden: make meaning of it can be profoundly helpful and…
David Hayden: where I have loved couples work and…
David Hayden: when things happen in that way.
David Hayden: their family.
David Hayden: We were just dropping into something or…
David Hayden: providing just a wealth of knowledge of…
David Hayden: So that was a lot of my upbringing and…
David Hayden: I've thought I've held that story in particular way,…
David Hayden: super thoughtful in that way and…
David Hayden: someone that just no longer agrees with the religion and…
David Hayden: I trust that I do…
David Hayden: There was a sense inside of them that they could track that that didn't feel genuine to them and…
David Hayden: but at the same time being scared of community…
David Hayden: what's this thing that we're solving together or…
David Hayden: what is the tone of conversation or…
David Hayden: Maybe you spend five or…
David Hayden: and that sense of …
David Hayden: being part of a non-denominational.
David Hayden: There is a resonance that carries through my life and…
David Hayden: right and…
David Hayden: getting to see clients like retap into those resources and…
David Hayden: we talk about the seeking circuit or…
David Hayden: but there are ways in my body inherently responds to that I can't seem to get over and…
David Hayden: It can be I just need to meditate more.
David Hayden: but the perspective of things and…
David Hayden: there's often at least in my own experience the downplaying of those structures within…
David Hayden: I don't know
David Hayden: There's ways that we have Adventure there's ways that you…
David Hayden: that sense of Integrity as well kind of really important to me as I've continued in that.
David Hayden: a lot of
David Hayden: we were just getting to the good stuff and…
David Hayden: then ended up working with a lot of gay men and…
David Hayden: but as this clients talking about their own story and…
David Hayden: because of what's happened within those communal settings and…
David Hayden: gets kicked out or…
David Hayden: I have a few different meditations that are for people that are either struggling with trauma related things or…
David Hayden: that has been the thing that I'm diving deep into and…
David Hayden: but not enough service centers yet.
David Hayden: how to navigate these landscapes in a very ethical way.
David Hayden: how else to frame this sometimes clients acting like am I crazy?
David Hayden: we hear in Oregon really I think value doing that that we hold space and…
David Hayden: these different things and…
David Hayden: six months listening to a whole bunch of different podcasts so that some puzzle pieces get put back in the place there before you ever show up to any sort of group or…
David Hayden: making space for?
David Hayden: it's taking my own time to develop that of …
David Hayden: for me some of the most powerful deconstruction work I've done has been bottom up.
David Hayden: found out in very particular ways.
David Hayden: I just need to do X Y or…
David Hayden: the reaching circuit or…
David Hayden: getting to teach and…
David Hayden: that way and…
David Hayden: those resources like naturally expand.
David Hayden: that and…
David Hayden: I'm really tracking my own system too oof.
David Hayden: kicked out of a church and…
David Hayden: And so that's one thing that Oregon's really working on to try and…
David Hayden: then having to pull back from that and…
David Hayden: feeling like they have the skills.
David Hayden: Press circuit and…
David Hayden: I might not be consciously thinking about or…
David Hayden: clients really embody safety find and…
David Hayden: navigate the holidays and…
David Hayden: There's a lot of danger that gets digested in the nervous system about themselves and…
David Hayden: and seeing
David Hayden: Z more and…
David Hayden: and there's a particular way of for example approaching about work that feels meaningful and…
David Hayden: how do I listen to that?
David Hayden: they went along with it anyways,…
David Hayden: I think part of that healing process can often be cool.
David Hayden: then as you're doing those experiences
David Hayden: We're actually going into those other altered experiences whether that's breath work or…
David Hayden: Am I actually on this path in this way and…
David Hayden: not recognizing…
David Hayden: they start to conceptualize.
David Hayden: That isn't just shooting at the hip…
David Hayden: I mean that is one of the beautiful processes that takes place in therapy.
David Hayden: which a systems right…
David Hayden: some clients giving feedback that love hey,…
David Hayden: then if you lose that,…
David Hayden: how those structures are also based in the distortions that are coming from religious trauma,…
David Hayden: and there's…
David Hayden: how do you each of these modalities,…
David Hayden: that Nuance.
David Hayden: worrying about or…
David Hayden: There's still things here.
David Hayden: then this component of self betrayal or…
David Hayden: When I am feeling this thing,…
David Hayden: my gosh,…
David Hayden: wanting to just find more safety for themselves,…
David Hayden: because it doesn't fit the mold and…
David Hayden: It's been that experience of my mind knows these differences…
David Hayden: anxious about that.
David Hayden: I mean that's my bread and…
David Hayden: there's a diversity element that we don't know…
David Hayden: And…
David Hayden: catch up on and…
David Hayden: But there's this piece of …
David Hayden: discover safety that is based there and…
David Hayden: how we welcome that.
David Hayden: ?
David Hayden: just really normalizing that sense of uncertainty and…
David Hayden: how do I kind of reach in that and…
David Hayden: Your therapist needs therapy limitations within…
David Hayden: and really offer centers that can provide these healing spaces…
David Hayden: there's not an sense of full understanding of that and…
David Hayden: it is a particular circuit inside of me.
David Hayden: if you will one of the things that's a little bit of a struggle within our state is in terms…
David Hayden: whether that's doing psychedelic work on some level…
David Hayden: So check me out there.
David Hayden: I would love to go deeper than with this.
David Hayden: self trust that goes offline and…
David Hayden: okay, I'm supporting this client in this way.
David Hayden: how to work with.
David Hayden: I've found as private practice just as that consistently evolved you have to stay tuned into am I still in that chapter because
David Hayden: and work with that and…
David Hayden: event or…
David Hayden: butter the thing that I love sinking my teeth into…
David Hayden: then how thinking changes and…
David Hayden: How do I actually have a conversation?
David Hayden: how they show up and…
David Hayden: I'm not just like mentalizing this in a certain way.
David Hayden: things like
David Hayden: carve that out?
David Hayden: and I think even just the psycho education
David Hayden: I would love to not feel that clock ticking down that …
David Hayden: but like you're saying my body hasn't really caught on to that same experience and…
David Hayden: doubt is also part of being human that you're trying to figure out…
David Hayden: How does that all so impact the rest of my life and…
David Hayden: because it really builds some internal capacity to navigate our inner landscape that feels nice.
David Hayden: working with that of …
David Hayden: their personal identity as well as the relationships in their lives,…
David Hayden: but also just within Oregon it's been cool to see all of the Grassroots movements that have popped up even here in Portland.
David Hayden: that and…
David Hayden: And the unpacking of that needs to be a both and experience.
David Hayden: because there is such a subtlety that comes alive and…
David Hayden: That's not just asking the same 25 questions that are a part of that.
David Hayden: how things really unfold that it's cool.
David Hayden: Then those steps also become easier of wanting to potentially connect to resources of…
David Hayden: how we struct.
David Hayden: how do you begin to build self trust in yourself again?
David Hayden: the way that I show up in myself care and…
David Hayden: like you were saying
David Hayden: …
David Hayden: just even being able to trust someone again after being asked to leave when you've been considered that my family are the people that are going to be invested in me no matter…
David Hayden: we're dropping a tiny bit of honey in the glass and…
David Hayden: that's where I so value that religious trauma both.
David Hayden: how to navigate this to the best of your ability.
David Hayden: what we're offering and…
David Hayden: my own relationships, too.
David Hayden: We seem like we are sitting in this non-threatening space.
David Hayden: Sometimes that I acupuncture like each one of these modalities has brought their own unique tools and…
David Hayden: How do I get to tune into my curiosity of the things?
David Hayden: How do you begin to like,…
David Hayden: if I'm trying to be everything you're missing out on some very valuable just even social
David Hayden: just seeing…
David Hayden: my gosh.
David Hayden: how that kind of fits with the rest of the week.
David Hayden: how do I ground myself?
David Hayden: I like you as a person or…
David Hayden: I actually want to know about you rather than how's your week been Bill and…
David Hayden: There's an organization called the Portland psychedelic Society.
David Hayden: But are you safe or…
David Hayden: And how do I move in that process?
David Hayden: you're really cool in that…
David Hayden: And then also my own creativity.
David Hayden: in that way that kind of our healing across the Spectrum
David Hayden: Can I actually trust these feelings and…
David Hayden: And how do I give myself a lot of space as I maybe show up for a group and…
David Hayden: are you disassociated and…
David Hayden: We have a few different societies that are based within therapeutic Realms that are about offering knowledge and…
David Hayden: and what's going on with the dog and
David Hayden: I want more time to really drop in with people in that way.
David Hayden: how do we pay attention to?
David Hayden: Sensations that are coming forth?
David Hayden: I've been…
David Hayden: I mean that bouncing back and…
David Hayden: then I'm exhausted for two days afterwards…
David Hayden: how do I want to say this?
David Hayden: what a lot of churches talk about just keep showing up or…
David Hayden: So kind of came out of that also within the MDR Community to intensives are part of that Community part of the model…
David Hayden: because there's a lot of information that I need integrate from that.
David Hayden: forth processes.
David Hayden: I've been aware of that.
David Hayden: psycho education and…
David Hayden: Some people are always looking for the quick result.
David Hayden: integration services for people that are having these types of experiences and…
David Hayden: just keep being present in this different way and…
David Hayden: I don't think that it's not particularly the quick result,…
David Hayden: if you get cut off from that Holy moldy that throws a lot of models out of black for you and
David Hayden: how we talk about things and…
David Hayden: but I think there's something in our nervous systems that we get to trust…
David Hayden: really getting to see a network come together that feels really cool for…
David Hayden: so it's really evolved…
David Hayden: where it's I've done this.
David Hayden: where I get a lot of people that are saying I've been in therap.
David Hayden: where people go with it.
David Hayden: I've found the titrated experience up to 50 minutes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy podcast for two mental health professionals talk about their mental health Journeys and how they navigate mental Wellness while working in the mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher licensed marriage of family therapist David Hayden David. Thanks for joining me today.
David Hayden: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm super stoked to talk to you. We have a lot of professional overlap and there's a lot of things that you do in your practice that I think are really interesting from a professional lens that I don't think people talk about enough. So I'm excited to jump in and…
David Hayden: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: talk with you first question. I always start with is how did you get into the mental health field?
David Hayden: Yeah, that's a great question. Honestly, I think my journey towards the mental health field started when I was probably about 12 or so. And I remember going on this walk and having this very clear Vivid experience of really wanting to be with people in their pain and their stories and then I think life kind of unfolded with that too kind of, you take a class and you have a conversation with somebody and then you have another experience of someone really listening to you in a deep and empathic way and it just kind of unfolds from there, too. I was definitely the person in high school that a lot of people saw that talk about things with and constantly had that experience throughout Life and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
David Hayden: I think it really solidified for me in college though as part of my college education. we were offered a certain amount of sessions of free therapy. And that was my first chance to really drop in an individual way and just getting to see another human being show up and offer space and that just set me up to know that this was the field that I really wanted to be in.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's so cool. What was going on? If you don't mind me asking at 12 years old where you were like, hey, I want to witness or I want to hold space for people over there going through this.
David Hayden: Yeah, I mean I think reflecting back on that time and then also doing a lot of parts work in my own life that 12 year old felt pretty alone and lonely and didn't really have people in his life that were asking the questions of him that helped him feel seen and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
David Hayden: heard and in the ways that he needed to and not that people were bad around him in any particular way, but there was a holding of space that he wasn't getting and I think and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
David Hayden: having that his own way he followed the pipeline to be like, okay, I'm gonna do it to others, childhood drama might as well set me up for being a helpful.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I love that and thanks so much for sharing. I'm just reflecting on kind of my own history because when I was 10 11 12, I really wanted to be a doctor it was. A very important thing to me that I helped people and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: and hearing your story and reflecting being like yeah, I feel that as like, there wasn't anything bad or wrong in my life. But also I wasn't as undiagnosed ADHD at that point. So they were thinking on that were under the radar that Nobody was harming me, but nobody was making extra space for me. So yeah,…
David Hayden: Definitely. Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: they didn't.
David Hayden: That really resonates as well. I mean, it's also interesting too, How as you go through your story. There are all these different root findments and I think that in my own story, I experienced a lot of chapters of what I want to do is this actually how I want to show up in the world and then experiencing that Confluence of the conversation or the person or the book or the resource in some way just like nudging me a little bit and just being willing to follow that
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, were you psych undergrad and then grad school or was that a bit of a windy Journey as well?
David Hayden: Yeah, so for me when I was doing undergrad I actually did my undergrad and communication studies. I was really fascinated by the overlay of just language and culture and sociology as well as just the nuances of language how sentence structure gets built in a very particular way the Cadence in which we tell stories public speaking, these different fields and that respect and I decided to do that because I think I wasn't a hundred percent confident and sure that I was gonna go for my Master's Degree and I felt like if I did psychology I was committed to that route and there's something about my personality that has an internal Rebel to it…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
David Hayden: where I don't want to feel locked in and that's where that degree kind of came into place.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, if you get a bachelor's in psychology, it is assumed you are going to grad school or working a very low income job.
David Hayden: Yeah. exactly
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: So knowing now at this point your career some of Specialties you work with religious trauma, which is how you and I connected in the first place but also trauma in general do some parts work like all these trauma related things. What was that being in the fields? Was that grad school an internship placement? You saw a lot of trauma. You knew you wanted to work with it, or was that something that came later as you're like, I'm seeing all these clients weird kind of the trauma piece start to come into it for you professionally.
David Hayden: Yeah, I mean I think for me when I first got into the field, a lot of the settings that I was in were very trauma-based working out of Suicide Hotline working at wraparound care. But a lot of my experience of those places was, almost like taking somebody that was drowning and trying to lift them up a little bit and I really wanted to be able to work with people that were experiencing trauma in a way that I could actually, get them out of the drounding position and that perspective priority being a therapist. and then when I started Private Practice
David Hayden: It's kind of been in an evolution into that, starting. mainly with working with men and codependency and Boundary concerns and then that evolving from there and to religious trauma and attachment style work and some of these what I would consider depth oriented approaches because there's a subtlety in those approaches that I deeply value and really resonates with my own nervous system, too.
Jeremy Schumacher: sure, and I love talking to other Private Practice owners because My experience was I put that off too long and…
David Hayden: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: I was scared of the business side of it because at my experience in grad school was no business education. There was no aspect of if you go into private practice. It was all agency work based and So I'm curious to what was that kind of that side of the profession. What was that Journey like for you to go from working in these different places?
Jeremy Schumacher: To then owning your own practice.
David Hayden: Yeah, so for me, I think in graduate school, I definitely knew that I wanted to do private practice at some point. I don't think I have a timeline for that. I don't think I was like, I'm gonna finish grad school and jump immediately into private practice the thing that kind of happened for me though was as I was working in these different settings. I felt like their Were certain skills that I wasn't getting that. I really wanted to be honing and a lot of those were things that were associated with long-term care.
David Hayden: And I was specifically working at this Suicide Hotline and I did this in such a way where I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this work. I'm gonna do it for, another year and a half to two years and just pound my hours out and do a very small time Private Practice on the side and while I valued the work that I was getting at the suicide hotline. There was something that was in that moment. This is not the journey that I want to be working on. And so I had a tiny bit of savings and a few clients in my private practice and I was just like I'm gonna make this work and I quit the job and just hustled my butt off for three months to really get that private practice not just up and running but thriving in that way and that was seven or eight years ago and it's cool to just see the evolution of those things. It was really an act of I think.
David Hayden: Believing that I had a certain Vision that I wanted to execute and being willing to follow that and just kind of learning as you went along,
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. It's a fascinating part of being an adult realized in that. Nobody actually knows what they're doing and you just kind of have to do it and adjust accordingly.
David Hayden: Yeah. exactly
Jeremy Schumacher: so some of the things that you specialize in I mean that's extra training that's additional Focus that you as a practitioner have to do to be able to provide those services but Was that a desire from suicide hotline working with veterans having seen that trauma where you're like, I need to be trained in this more. Was that a slow trickle accumulating thing certifications workshops here and there? What did that look like?
David Hayden: Yeah. Yeah, I think for me that was just this genuine process of discovery. So when I was first kind of starting off in private practice, I found myself already being kind of drawn to attachment research. There was something about that that deeply resonated with me the model. I was studying at that time was emotionally focused therapy and doing some couples work and doing individual work and studying and getting supervision for that and kind of really trying to be as robust as I could in those offerings and then as clients came into my practice finding the things that work and the other things that just didn't seem to resonate that they resonated in the training or the resonated in maybe my own system, but they didn't resonate for those clients and I can feel these moments where we were approaching.
00:10:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I love talking to Private Practice owners. I also love talking to reflect reflective to our clients. they're coming to see us and Learn and Grow but we grow with them. And so when you do the work for many years it changes how you approach the work. I think if you're doing it. anyways that locking in my modality is not what most therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, anything be awareness that not everyone needs help in the same way. and I think grad school offered a very idealistic view of you're gonna have Pages and pages of referral sources and that's not I'm in the midwest. That's not the case for me where I can say. I don't work with that. Here's a great referral. They have openings. They are this much or taken insurance or whatever where it's I'm going to work with you because me and you're coming to me for this thing, and I'm gonna try and meet you. On these various things especially doing couples work. There's a lot in the room with you at one point and having multiple modalities that you can comfortably work in with people is necessary. Whereas right? My grad school was also pick your modality and get really good at it as opposed to different people need different things
00:15:00
Jeremy Schumacher: I can look back and say there were chapters. I don't know that I was always aware in the moment. But also I would say I'm neurodivergent with my ADHD having a big mix of cases is important to Switching to private practice and learning how to Market. It was really hard for me because everyone said Market your Niche and I was like, I have four of them that are totally unrelated and so not grad school saying pick your modality, but then marketing kind of saying pick your thing that you're marketing those things never super resonated in my brain. So I always have a mix of things that I like to do, but definitely have had chapters where I'm coaching more I did sports performance. Leaving the church and then going back and getting certified to work with religious trauma obviously is my most recent chapter. But yeah,
Jeremy Schumacher: definitely things it's always a mix of I would say two to four things for me with my ADHD that I'm kind of balancing my case load is 30% of each of them or whatever. It looks like.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I used to feel really bad saying if I have the same case over and over I will get bored. It's like it but it's not a judgment on my clients in any way shape or form. It's acknowledgment of this is the way my brain works. So if I'm going to be helpful to people and I still do this I still kind of Jigsaw piece my calendar together where I don't have let's say couples cases back to back and on a daily basis or Too Many religious trauma cases back to back where I have different things throughout the day so that my brain stays kind of Nimble I guess is the word that comes to mind it's not like I forget how to do therapy but my brain it's more attuned in a different way when I've got that mixture.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. It's been a before I had children. I worked across the street from a gym and I would see a couple clients the morning I go to the gym for three hours and then I would come back and see clients in the afternoon and evening and I think Fell into that I was certainly not intentional that was first job out of grad school. that was but I think that To me. Let me know there's a part that I play and how I show up for my clients in how I take care of myself movement throughout the day. I would go to the gym and play volleyball because they're pickled volleyball games and so
Jeremy Schumacher: that really helped me stay sharp. I felt like and I was aware was myself care. So that was kind of ingrained from my first job. It's looked different everywhere. I've worked and I still am tinkering with it in private practice because s Perhaps I have more flexibility, but also I don't know. I'm still synching with it in private practice to be honest, but that awareness of my body needs to move at some point and my brain kind of needs that flush that reset. I don't know. those words sound too strong in my head, but something meet
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, that's true.
00:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, for I think Private Practice has been nice because I structure self-care a lot differently. I don't see clients on Wednesdays. We're recording on a Wednesday. that's always my client free day whether it's doing media, whether it's going out on the river going to ulfing going to The zoo with my youngest child is on school yet, whatever it's a totally open day for me. If I need to catch up on notes which comes up a lot with my ADHD but whatever. I've got that free day every single week occasionally. I'll see a client here there on a Wednesday but it's always my choice. It's always so that's been really nice to have off two days on weekend that has been really wonderful for me personally and how I set my schedule.
Jeremy Schumacher: and working less it's just fewer hours
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I would say it's a young therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, let's nerd out about lutherans because I was raised what brand of Lutheran were Okay, I grew up Wells so the most conservative version but yeah, I mean I've talked about this in other podcast episodes but
Jeremy Schumacher: Undiagnosed ADHD because in my brand of Christianity we didn't do mental health and it was a spiritual battle thing. It wasn't a medical condition both. My parents are Educators very very intelligent people. But just that block through the religion of Jeremy's up every minute and sharpening this pencils and emptying, the chalkboard tray and has all this extra stuff but it's getting good grades. So he must be fine. And so I look back on again my religious trauma. I talk about little tea trauma for myself, nothing No big PTSD, but hell trauma, very black and white thinking a lot of that stuff that
Jeremy Schumacher: As I moved more liberal similar kind of thing where you're finding non-denominational and trying to find things that fit better for you until finally leaving the church altogether and being like, right. This just is not a thing that fits for me that I don't ascribe to anymore, but that definitely looking back on my professional work like that has been there in the chapters that we were talking about earlier of my work yeah. This is where I was like
00:25:00
Jeremy Schumacher: I need to support my marginalized clients in a significantly different way than I am. I don't know what that's like because I grew up white male in a Christian environment. So super privilege. So what does that look like? How do I approach this differently? to deconstruct? What do I need to learn and I can look at those chapters very clearly in my career. It's like yeah. I was trying to leave the church. I didn't know that yet, but that's what was happening. And then a lot of that was through the work that I had through even in undergrad just the science. I was exposed to all the sudden after being parochial school K through 12 Science and research what a novelty. So yeah that high control religion impacted for sure the work that I was doing early in my career.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, and there's so much intersectionality that goes into that. So I can talk about white privilege and male privilege but being neurodivergent. It's not a privilege status and in our society and definitely not in the early 2000s. So even just the way that I relate to my own diagnosis changed as I moved further and further away from the church and that's really informed how I work with clients too of it's not just this diagnosis and a vacuum. It's your values and your belief system. making sense of this diagnosis
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, yeah, so I'm so fascinated with the somatic experiencing because my upbringing with religion and a lot of my clients that I work with who are coming out of high control religion. It's a theme to disconnect from your body. Your body is sinful. your body is of the world whatever religious word gets thrown on it, but you're taught from a young age for a lot of people to ignore or to second guess your body and so something like somatic experiencing where you're creating space and getting in touch with your body in a way. I can see how that's such a powerful tool for clients coming out of high control religion.
00:30:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think it can be exponential growth for some people and I think sometimes it's almost this tiered Plateau another different Plateau because some of the stuff can I don't want to I don't want to use black and white thinking So take with a grain of salt. What about to say but I'm gonna say kind of only be reached when you have certain levels of safety. So when you're working with something like complex PTSD. It's unsafe to feel your body so you can't as a therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: Needs therapy one. One thing opens one Domino Falls and they all fall. So I think it's interesting too. Just the Nuance of each person. This process can look so different for People based on their own lived experience.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and how they can feel safe and connected through some of the work and then one trigger gets tripped up and all of a sudden they're not safe and that's usually not a cognitive process. That's not something they're aware of and so things like spiritual bypassing and some of that stuff comes up where it's like, you've learned to intellectualize this feeling. So you're so disconnected from it that you're not even aware. That's a trigger. You're not even feeling that process happen.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah, I like to remind clients. The body is an organ just like your kidneys and the brain is an organ just like your kidneys and so we don't think really hard and our kidneys work better. We can't think really hard and our brains gonna work better, but I do think because a lot of people in high control religion have that spiritual bypassing and some of that black and white thinking ingrained that there is some intellectual work to do and again for different people. It's starting there for different people. It's bringing in on the back end right in the middle wherever it fits for them, but it's one of those things we're like, my experience with clients is it's very much both and I would say my own personal experience. I did all the intellectual work first.
Jeremy Schumacher: And then was like, s***. I got a bunch of body stuff that I need to do. That was like for me my ADHD diagnosis hit differently because I didn't notice my sensory issues as much because I just bypassing them and I had no that wasn't a cognitive thing. I was doing has just been doing it since a little kid. So one of those things was s*** this is A whole new thing for me like I got a new therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: I know how to work with this theoretically, but I don't know how to put into practice. And so needing to do my work differently getting a different therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: needs
00:35:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. I love my therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: I was smart enough to intellectualize my way out of with other therapist. again, I think it's having a good care team whether that's advocating for yourself and find a new therapist.
Jeremy Schumacher: The number one thing I hear from people leaving a religion they're scared to lose is the community. Because group dynamics and churches are very strong. And so when you're in group, you're in the community full force. And so it's very bizarre. I think for people especially if they're raised into the religion to imagine a world that exists outside of that. But it's so great. One of the things with high control religion is that information control looking at Steve Hassan's a bite model like information control not knowing. Hey, there's a thousand deconstruction podcasts out there. Hey, there's all these Facebook groups. There's meetups. There's stuff in person. There's a ton of virtual stuff when you're in the church, you are aware of zero of that. And so it seems really scary to leave the community to think there's nothing out there.
Jeremy Schumacher: You just don't know it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I love the Facebook groups for that too. Just normalizing there's such a alienation internally that goes on of I'm the only person who's ever done this join a Facebook group of Deacon version and everyone's got the same story. It looks the specifics. Different but that internal dialogue that questioning that existential crisis, right that's very normal part of the process for people.
00:40:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah for I talk about that a lot with clients give them a heads up. You're gonna be tired after therapy. Don't plan anything. you talk specifically one of the things I don't know that I've covered in the podcast is kind of the injury that happens with being asked to leave or being removed from a church and I used the word injury like I would say that's another level of it's not just passive accumulation of little T traumas. That's a potentially Big T PTSD type trauma.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, and there's so much. Safety that goes into that of you've been taught and it's been rewarded over and over again that church is safe and then when that becomes an unsafe environment, like there's so much stuff in your brain that's wired to handle it one way and then you have this abrupt reality check of that's not safe for me anymore.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I would add for some people it's not relearning how to do that. Some people it's learning how to do it in the first place because they were indoctrinated into it and don't actually have an idea of what true safety feels like.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah some Minnesota Nice Kicks in there. I feel I'm having a reaction of yeah, that's how we do things in the Midwest. But yeah again I tend to say I don't think Church does community particularly. I think it's just such a structured thing for people. They don't have to think about it. So right as a teen if you're growing up in that high control bubble like you go to youth group X number of days, you've got evening hip. You've got weekend worship. You've got praise band or whatever you're on sports teams through your school that's connected to Church so much of that stuff is prepared for you that it's not learning social skills. It's not approaching it from a skill or a technique approach. It's just done for you here. It is on a platter. And so when you lose that it's like you might be in your 30s and needing to learn how to do some of this for the first time.
00:45:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, yeah and that permission given to try something and not like it or to try something that I talk about permission giving a lot you get to give yourself permission now. It's not coming from anyone else. It's not coming from anywhere else. you give yourself permission.
Jeremy Schumacher: in prepping to talk to you looking at your website and one of the things I want to talk about is you offer intensive sessions, so You can correct the format here, but it looks like four hour sessions. with a 45 minute phone call ahead of time and 45 minute follow-up is that Accurate I love that because one of my big criticisms of grad school is we watched the Carl Whitakers the Carl Rogers the great therapist therapy. They would have a weekend where this family flies in they're gonna record it. It's the 1950s everybody's chain smoking and they would have these Marathon sessions and as a grad student, I was just like but I can't do therap That way I won't get reimbursed or I won't like No One's Gonna schedule that with me so what good is
Jeremy Schumacher: seeing a six hour session when I can't do that. And so there's cool. I'll just do it that way too. Here's the Intensive. So where did that idea come from? What's the feedback you get from clients on that stuff. Tell me a little bit about that.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's fascinating. I love talking to Needs therapy. We're going to do breath work and then we're gonna have a campfire or whatever nature walk and some of the Psychedelic stuff too, like the integration work where people are approaching. As we're gonna go really deep over these three days. I think that isn't for everyone but I think there are people who certainly are looking for that are going to respond to that better. So I wanted to highlight that because I think it's awesome that I saw that website was like my brain instantly start being like, okay, what does that look like for you? How are you gonna start doing that in the future? Because that's such a good idea.
00:50:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, for Yeah, I'm glad you touched on that because I'm doing my psychedelic integration specialty. Right now working on it Wisconsin our close to legalizing. I'm asking you to speak for all Oregon presidents here represent your state, but what's the landscape and it's what been psychedelics have been decriminalized for two years now.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Sure.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, that's and in the religious trauma Community, I think a lot of clients are finding their way towards some version of plant-based medicine or a psychedelic experience or spirituality through a ritual or ceremony type setting and so I think for me that was like I need to learn more about this because my clients are saying hey, can I do integration with you or can I'm going X Y and Z I'm gonna be tripping and when I get back I want to talk about it. I was Okay, that's not legal. But also let me tell you here's what I know about it. And so I'm wanting to learn more about it because I think the federal government and the state governments are a little behind but people are finding their way to these things and interested in the healing properties of it. And so trying to as a practitioner be as up to date as I can be on this and meet my clients where they're that's been my big push for it. It's like for a lot of my clients. they're already doing this stuff whether I'm
Jeremy Schumacher: Introducing it or saying it's okay or not. They don't really care they're finding their way to it. So, how can I help them and make sure they're being safe about it. So
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah. Yeah. Very cool. It's been awesome cat David if people want to learn more about you people want to check out your work. They want to work with you. Where do they find yourself?
Jeremy Schumacher: Very cool. We will have links to all of that stuff in the show notes so that it's easy for people to find. David thanks so much for joining me this week.
00:55:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, that's my ammo and to all our lovely listeners. Thanks for tuning in again this week. We'll be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.
Meeting ended after 00:55:25 👋