Your Therapist Needs Therapy 68 - Mom’s Mental Health Initiative with Casey White

Jeremy is joined this week by Casey White from the Mom’s Mental Health Initiative (MMHI). MMHI is an organization dedicated to helping birthing persons navigate the many aspects of perinatal health and wellness.  Jeremy and Casey discuss the challenges of perinatal mental health, emphasizing the lack of societal support and resources for new mothers, especially those from marginalized communities. Casey highlights the shame surrounding female bodies and the need for better tools and systems that consider diverse experiences. The conversation also touches on the importance of building a supportive community and normalizing discussions about mental health and the postpartum experience.

To learn more about MMHI and their work, head over to momsmentalhealthinitiative.org. Also, be sure to look at the upcoming Breaking Down Silos event that Casey talked about, a great opportunity coming up for learning and community building!

Jeremy has all his practice info at Wellness with Jer, and you can find him on Instagram and YouTube.

Head over to Patreon to support the show, or you can pick up some merch! We appreciate support from likes, follows, and shares as well!

-----

Podcasts about therapy do not replace actual therapy, and listening to a podcast about therapy does not signify a therapeutic relationship.

If you or someone you know is in crisis please call or text the nationwide crisis line at 988, or text HELLO to 741741. The Trevor Project has a crisis line for LGBTQ+ young people that can be reached by texting 678678.

Transcript

YTNT - Casey White (MMHI) (2024-08-07 13:01 GMT-5) - Transcript
Attendees
Casey White, Jeremy Schumacher
Transcript
This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
Jeremy Schumacher: Hello and welcome to another edition of your therapist needs therapy. The podcasts were two mental health professionals talk about their mental health Journeys while navigating The mental health field. I'm your host Jeremy Schumacher licensed marriage and family therapist to support the show head over to patreon.com/wellness with jair today. I'm super Stokes. I'm a ue I'm a Milwaukee homer. So I like to get local therapists on and today getting to talk about a wonderful organization here in Milwaukee doing a lot of great work related to mental health and I am joined by Casey white from Mom's mental health initiative Casey. Thanks for joining me today.
Casey White: Thanks for inviting me to join you. I'm excited.
Jeremy Schumacher: So for people who have maybe never heard of mmhi. Can you talk a little bit about Mom's mental health initiative where it came from how it got started?
Casey White: Absolutely. We are also Milwaukee homers. So our organization began in here in Milwaukee two moms who had been through their own experience with perinatal mental health conditions and though they've connected with other moms who've gone through What they realized was. It was really hard to get access to the right kind of help for them the kind of help that was understanding compassionate and knowledgeable about perinatal mental health conditions. So Sarah our co-founder and executive director and her friend Becky founded mom's mental health initiative and we're based on peer support is the Bedrock of what we do but we also provide a lot of resources through our resource brokering program…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is lovely I've had two different Specialists…
Casey White: which helps Perry needle people connect with maybe they need a psychiatrist.
Jeremy Schumacher: who I'm sure Emily Alexey and Katie O'Connor have both been guests on the podcast…
Casey White: Maybe they need a therapist evidence-based treatment to help them feel better…
Jeremy Schumacher: who work in perinatal mental health spaces. I think it's As a male a non-birthing body,…
Casey White: because one of the most important messages is that you will feel better another important thing that we try to provide to the
Jeremy Schumacher: there's so much about birthing that I think a lot of people don't understand generally speaking in the United States.
Casey White: D is information sharing so we do a lot of educational presentations.
Jeremy Schumacher: We don't have comprehensive sex ed.
Casey White: We'll go to community events and…
Jeremy Schumacher: We don't have comprehensive reproductive education.
Casey White: just try to make sure that people understand…
Jeremy Schumacher: So a lot of folks I think are unfamiliar and…
Casey White: what a perinatal mental health condition is and…
Jeremy Schumacher: perinatal is a big fancy science word.
Casey White: how they can affect people everything that we do is from a patient perspective a mom perspective a person who's been there.
Jeremy Schumacher: And so I think a lot of folks don't always know how much goes into this you kind of maybe find out you're pregnant you get assigned a doctor and…
Casey White: We're not clinicians. We're just people showing up…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's it.
Casey White: who understand what this looks like in real life.
Jeremy Schumacher: There's not always that support network. There's not always that education piece that goes along with just going to a hospital. So I think it's something that sounds like found the organization started because so many people were sharing this lived experience of yeah. It was kind of lonely to go through this experience.
Casey White: That's often the first step to someone even realizing that one of these conditions is hearing from someone who's just honest and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and curious kind of I know you joined the organization a couple years after it launched…
Casey White: real and since this is really hard. I think we have as a society this image of motherhood and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but what has the growth been like…
Casey White: birthing and…
Jeremy Schumacher: what has kind of been the connection to the community been like in responding to some of the work you're doing and…
Casey White: growing your family that is just joyful and sunshine and roses and wonderful, and there are a lot of Joyful things in it,…
00:05:00
Jeremy Schumacher: kind of the mission that you have.
Casey White: but if your brain is your body sending these signals to your brain going something's not right here and you start to struggle. It really sucks the joy out. And so that's perinatal is pregnancy and post part of these conditions can happen during both times throughout the entire process, people can develop these conditions if they're going through infertility and they're having trouble conceiving and There's some research that suggests. This goes all the way through eight years postpartum though. We only deal up to about two.
Casey White: Yeah, helping people to recognize that this is happening and can happen all the way throughout the process and bringing that realness to the fact that it just isn't always sunshine and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, so just like a very needed resource that when people are getting connected getting good results good feedback.
Casey White: Roses is a really important piece of addressing perineal Mental Health on a local and…
Jeremy Schumacher: And then I would guess word of mouth is a big. growth factor as well
Casey White: Global level.
Casey White: It's really truthfully been exponential over the last couple of years. So since 2016 we've served over a thousand moms and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, which is awesome. There's so much.
Casey White: families and I think gosh this year.
Jeremy Schumacher: Mental health overlap with these perinatal experiences.
Casey White: It's over a hundred percent growth from last year.
Jeremy Schumacher: I think most people maybe in the cultural Zeitgeist understand postpartum depression is maybe a phrase they've heard…
Casey White: we received a wonderful Grant through Wisconsin's Maternal Child Health Program…
Jeremy Schumacher: but there's so much more anything that really is starting to Mess with your hormones both in a positive and…
Casey White: because they're recognizing that this is so important and that is really helped us grow and serve more families think of new ways to serve families and…
Jeremy Schumacher: a negative way. Sometimes anything that's affecting those hormonal levels overlap strongly with looking like mental health.
Casey White: It's I don't know all the numbers but exponential growth is…
Jeremy Schumacher: I mean a lot of those things that we see with depression that we see with
Casey White: how I would describe the change.
Jeremy Schumacher: Suicidal thinking that we see with anger outbursts emotional volatility, that's all hormone-based and we know that your hormones do a lot of different things and have to do a lot of different things over the course of a pregnancy. So I'm at Yeah, what?
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think again it's like this. I don't know as a male. I'm a dad. So a lot of this is experienced through having two kids and seeing my wife go through the Journey but there's so much about it that's like that. We know a lot of science. Just we don't necessarily always share the information or…
Casey White: It's huge and kind of the cool thing that we've noticed too is as more moms are asking for the resources that we provide.
Jeremy Schumacher: as a culture. We're not talking about some of this stuff regularly.
Casey White: We've added something providers in six months because what the mom's showing up is tell the providers. Hey, this is a needed resource. And so the entire ecosystem of pairing Neil mental health in southeast, Wisconsin here where we're operating is growing rapidly.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Casey White: Yes, Everything changes when you have a baby.
Casey White: Absolutely, and we need to talk about it more and I think that's really our culture shifting in that way. I don't know how much time you've spent on the mom corner of Instagram where a lot of us Millennial mobs are hanging out but people are being real there. And that's the coolest thing about watching. This landscape shift. Is that as we start to talk about these things we can understand as people going through this experience. Yes. My hormones are Out of control and I'm feeling really overwhelmed. what's the line between normal and I need help and I will argue that if you feel like you need help you need help and it's always okay to ask for that support and it is never a problem to ask for help when you feel like you're struggling…
Jeremy Schumacher: M yeah
Casey White: but I also think there's a lot of conversation around people know what postpartum depression is people have heard of the baby blues that
00:10:00
Casey White: Those conditions are not the limitations of perinatal mental health. So baby blues is a fairly typical experience…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: where your hormones are crashing after you have a baby. You're not sleeping. All these things are going on. That's the two weeks after you have a baby. That is common if not normal and not necessarily something that you have to worry about.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: Postpartum depression is characterized by feeling of course super sad. We've heard that feeling like inadequacy. I can't do this. I wasn't made for this maybe doesn't deserve me or I don't deserve my baby.
Casey White: there's also other conditions and what we hear from moms is that they'll go I don't have postpartum depression or…
Jeremy Schumacher: where
Casey White: I'm past the baby blues and so they don't really know…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Casey White: what the languages to describe what they're going through but there's also perinatal anxiety that can come up in pregnancy or postpartum and that is feeling like I don't know what I'm doing. You might have spinning thoughts. You might be checking your baby's breathing.
Casey White: intrusive thoughts are a big piece of anxiety and obsessive compulsive disorder,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: which can come up in the perinatal period that was my fun experience and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: Terrifying because you don't always want to talk about them graphic share. One of mine was that I was going to trip on the stairs and accidentally throw my baby across the hallway or walk through a doorway and slam his head into the door jamb and his head would go graphic gross, so People don't always want to talk about anxiety or OCD because those are terrifying things to think about and also they don't fit into the conversation that we are already having about depression or baby blues. it's not always just crying. Sometimes it's scary thoughts. It's obsessive behaviors hand-washing until your bleeding.
Casey White: So there's this whole range that includes substance use disorder, which is on the rise and that can be hard especially in the culture. We're living in Wisconsin. Mommy wine cultures. The thing having a couple of beers isn't a big deal. And I think but we're seeing that's starting to be one of the leading causes of death for moms. And so having more conversations around are you having fun right now, or are you doing this because it's a coping skill. And then of course PTSD often comes up in the post-birth experience.
Jeremy Schumacher: And the physical stuff then too. So this is all mental stuff and it's not I was pushed back against that separation between mental and…
Casey White: Birth can be scary and…
Jeremy Schumacher: physical health like your brain is part of your body and…
Casey White: a lot of people trauma is so subjective.
Jeremy Schumacher: and a lot of these things are popping up…
Casey White: And so if you feel that your birth.
Jeremy Schumacher: because of a difference in hormones and…
Casey White: Left a scar on you that you can't seem to get away from rethinking through that experience.
Jeremy Schumacher: then your brain is producing different chemicals in response to that so that communication between your brain and your body the signals that are being sent can get a little Haywire during pregnancy and…
Casey White: Refusing to go to the hospital because it's just a terrifying Place.
Jeremy Schumacher: then post birth. I think too. I talked to a lot of my clients I work with a lot of couples as a marriage therapist,…
Casey White: Those might be red flags that some thing postcard.
Jeremy Schumacher: it takes at least two years for your body to recover from giving birth.
Casey White: Yes tea
Jeremy Schumacher: And even if you have a lovely wonderful birth, it's still traumatic to your body the amount of change it has to go through in a very short amount of time and so there's a recovery period for that and we're trying to recover with lack of sleep with often lack of resources because we don't have great social support network in our country where you get nine months to a year off you can't adopt a puppy in less than eight weeks, but you're supposed to go back to work after birthing a child after six weeks. yeah, so there's also right this culture of it's supposed to be lovely and wonderful in your body and with your baby, but
Jeremy Schumacher: I tell clients all the time your brain blocks out a lot of those early months…
Casey White: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: because it is so resource depleted. you will just have gaps in your memory. Some of that is your brain compensating and some of that is just purely just on lack of sleep. Even if your baby is wonderful and your birth was wonderful simply lack of sleep is a very big problem for mental health
Casey White: the Spanish thing
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: absolutely, and I think when you talk about couples and
00:15:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: That's also a huge transition in your lifestyle. When you talk about working with a partner injecting this human in that has zero life skills. these skills are useless. Let's be real I can't do anything for themselves. And so now you as a partnership that have gotten used to whatever your Dynamic is.
Jeremy Schumacher: And yeah, yeah, and I think again a lot of people obviously have experienced this…
Casey White: It's completely imploded and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but also a lot of people have written about it on research about it.
Casey White: now you're expected to take care of this person to work to be in a relationship to communicate kindly and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's just really creating space to have some of these conversations. It's not that a new parent or…
Casey White: respectfully when you haven't slept in two months…
Jeremy Schumacher: even if it's your third or fourth or fifth kid it's not about Reinventing the wheel it's just about Having these conversations so that you can have a birth plan so you can have support when you're able to come back home with the baby so that there's a plan in place.
Casey White: because this person decided to either help you have a baby or have a baby right? So it's just the dynamic of your social emotional.
Jeremy Schumacher: if nothing else that we have a starting point to go off of It's not about doing it all by yourself and…
Casey White: sphere is completely changed in every single way and…
Jeremy Schumacher: needing to create this brand new thing from scratch the information's out there.
Casey White: I think
Casey White: absurd to expect that you in struggle in some way through that and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's having these conversations and creating those connections.
Casey White: I think it's good that we can talk about these things and help people to know that there are resources and it's okay to ask for those resources and you can even prepare a little bit for that shift so that you have resources before your foggy and angry and overwhelmed
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Casey White: Absolutely, and we actually have a tool on our website mom's mental health initiative.org.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: That is a discussion tool so you can have conversations in these Partnerships. It's a great tool to bring to a couples counseling session or…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: your doctor's office or wherever your resources have the conversation. How are we gonna navigate this? What tools do we have in our toolbox? Do we need a dog walker take care of the dog?
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and I think looking at humans as a species like we're Community Based and…
Casey White: Can we tap family or friends to bring some meals in those early days?
Jeremy Schumacher: so when we're well resourced,…
Jeremy Schumacher: we're obviously more able to get into that safe space and…
Casey White: If you're someone…
Casey White: who has a mental health history,…
Jeremy Schumacher: have some joy and…
Casey White: can you write down the symptoms…
Jeremy Schumacher: have that be a regular part of our life.
Casey White: how your mental health materializes for you?
Jeremy Schumacher: Whereas when we're under resource, whether that's energetically financially time.
Casey White: Do you get rage a lot of people do?
Jeremy Schumacher: Whatever that looks like…
Casey White: Do you shut down and…
Jeremy Schumacher: if we're under resourced.
Casey White: Retreat you start to overachieve?
Jeremy Schumacher: It's so much harder to get to that. Joyful place.
Casey White: That's the thing. We don't realize is this isn't always one picture of a stereotype.
Jeremy Schumacher: So I love the pier support. Aspect of this…
Casey White: Every person is gonna have a different experience with these conditions and…
Jeremy Schumacher: because again, I think so much of women's mental health and…
Casey White: so doing something like writing them down…
Jeremy Schumacher: I'm a male therapist and…
Casey White: how you think you might respond or…
Jeremy Schumacher: male podcast host in this instance,…
Casey White: something that could be a red flag for you can really help.
Jeremy Schumacher: but so much of women's mental health throughout history has been predominantly dominated by old white dudes.
Casey White: Get you Via your support network to treatment into the right help more quick.
Jeremy Schumacher: It wasn't that long ago where somebody was like, all tampons have led in them.
Casey White: That's…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's not great.
Casey White: how you get to enjoy. The Experience…
Jeremy Schumacher: Why is that happening? But it's this idea that women haven't had as much of a voice in doing the research and…
Casey White: because parents do deserve to enjoy the experience of having a new baby.
Jeremy Schumacher: conducting their own research and in kind of driving the scientific stuff behind.
Casey White: It can be really joyful.
Jeremy Schumacher: Women's Healthcare, and so I think that peer support it's really meaningful from other moms to hear from somebody who's had maybe three or four kids already who's gone through the process and say yeah, that was me too and I'm still a successful parent my children still are bonded and attached to me in a healthy way like it's okay.
Casey White: Absolutely.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
00:20:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: Yes, so Women's Healthcare is dramatically underfunded under researched and that is something. We need to change and I do think it is changing slowly, surely and I think that's the place where this peer support comes from. It's driven by the fact that we looked around and…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah. Yeah, I think I mean
Casey White: said no one's doing the things that need to be done to get us the right treatments the right education periental mental health is maybe a single book and…
Jeremy Schumacher: I was gonna say I know for my wife she's married to a therapist. So I had some knowledge and from a couple's perspective not from a birthing person perspective,…
Casey White: a textbook for health care providers that are doing eight years of training and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but how to plan for parenting and a plan for when we got home…
Casey White: that needs to change and…
Jeremy Schumacher: but everything that happened in the hospital pretty beyond me was not stuff that even years of grad school and…
Casey White: research and all of that will help. But for now what we can do is Share information in our circles if your mom who's gone through it.
Jeremy Schumacher: years of postgrad. It's not a thing that I ever studied or…
Casey White: That's how I got help me sister-in-law was like,…
Jeremy Schumacher: talked about. So I think and…
Casey White: hey, I went through this and then when I started struggling I reached out and…
Jeremy Schumacher: she got one little pamphlet one little like eight or…
Casey White: I said,…
Jeremy Schumacher: nine question questionnaire about Postpartum depression and…
Casey White: I know I'm not. Okay. What do I do?
Jeremy Schumacher: that's the only thing that came up about it.
Casey White: And she said you need to get a therapist. I'm like, okay.
Casey White: Where do I go for that? And in my situation it just happened that I knew about Mom's mental health initiative.
Jeremy Schumacher: And that was gosh.
Jeremy Schumacher: My oldest is six. So that was 2018 that was not that long ago…
Jeremy Schumacher: where it was again still just really one little questionnaire.
Casey White: through my work and…
Casey White: was able to reach out and…
Jeremy Schumacher: She got probably…
Casey White: so that's As women as Community Builders,…
Jeremy Schumacher: where you wouldn't have talked about any of it if I wasn't a therapist to discuss at least some of the couple stuff.
Casey White: we've created these networks to skirt this system that isn't built for by us So yeah, peer support. sorry.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: And I think I mean it still headline grabbing we're recording during the Olympics right now, but it was a big headline grabbing moment where a swimmer who was being interviewed basically said my period just started.
Casey White: For sure, and I think that's part of the issue is that…
Jeremy Schumacher: I feel awful and again that gets headlines and…
Casey White: if we're not educating partners? either Then we're missing a key opportunity to screen and…
Jeremy Schumacher: really it's like All female bodies are having periods. Most female bodies are menstruating. that's a normal part of most people's experience. Why is this newsworthy that …
Casey White: catch moms when they're struggling most. My husband was the first person to go.
Jeremy Schumacher: wow How brave of her to talk about it.
Casey White: Are you okay? And I pissed off and…
Jeremy Schumacher: It's like how far behind is our society that we haven't normalized talking about these things.
Casey White: I don't think I am and that was the start of this domino effect to getting help and feeling so much better without teaching people. And talking about these things and helping people understand where the resources lie. We're just leaving this huge gap and that's all initiative tries to stand in that Gap. we tried to Through our social media and Word of Mouth things like this catch people where they are so that we can then hold their hand and get them to the treatments that will help them most.
Jeremy Schumacher: I yeah.
Casey White: yeah, There's been so much shame put on the female body on birthing bodies especially people of color. Are experiencing perinatal mental health conditions and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: maternal Health deaths at a far higher rate. There's just so much. shame around ing around female bodies and then so little interest from the traditional system in fixing these inequities And that's maybe a far reaching statement. And that is Casey white talking not moms with the whole mission.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and…
Jeremy Schumacher: and I appreciate.
Casey White: but We have to emphasize.
Jeremy Schumacher: Casey white the person's perspective on this…
Casey White: making it normal for a woman to have a period we have to emphasize the fact that
Jeremy Schumacher: but as a therapist too. I mean I talk about a lot of this stuff. I'm a marriage of family therapist. So I was trained in systems therapy.
Casey White: Our screening tools hearing elements of health conditions were written by white people from a white perspective.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's what we call it family therapy grew out of the cybernetics community back in the 50s,…
00:25:00
Casey White: That's an interesting thing.
Jeremy Schumacher: like ecosystems and…
Casey White: We just went to the postpartum support International Conference and…
Jeremy Schumacher: studying how different groups of people interact as…
Casey White: heard from a speaker talking about how the tools that we have to even recognize.
Jeremy Schumacher: if an ecosystem would and so while women might be a slightly larger percentage of the population than men now,…
Casey White: mental health conditions are so white-based and…
Jeremy Schumacher: they're still very much marginalized Community because they are not having the same amount of power in these decisions and…
Casey White: so I think in every system My urging would be let's think Beyond.
Jeremy Schumacher: setting some of these standards and even getting to shape the narrative around what's quote unquote normal.
Casey White: Ourselves, let's think beyond our privilege.
Jeremy Schumacher: It's really just like ah,…
Casey White: And let's talk about and…
Jeremy Schumacher: no, we don't want to deal with that. So here's this tiny sliver of focus.
Casey White: have dialogue around. Serving birthing bodies better serving people of color better.
Jeremy Schumacher: Here's this tiny sliver of funding. Here's one chapter in a textbook. Like you said it's such a small thing when it can really be life altering for people and…
Casey White: and growing equity That is both gender and race-based.
Jeremy Schumacher: I don't know having kids is a big deal supposedly to everybody when you listen to the political discourse, but it's one of those things where we have a lot of research I don't think you're saying anything radical there's so much research that backs up every Point you're talking about. These are things that are known and for whatever reason as a society, we've sort of decided to not address them.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Casey White: Absolutely, and I think we've seen a shift. There's been a lot of funding put into maternal health because they do think that the research is starting to come out and we're really starting to see how many lives were losing and I think we have to too realize that Everyone has a mom. everyone was born from a birthing body.
Jeremy Schumacher: And again like that community-based approach of you.
Casey White: I should say so. it is truly all of our concerns when a birthing person is struggling…
Jeremy Schumacher: You can't have a community without having future generations and so perinatal mental health and…
Casey White: because That person has other people that rely on them.
Jeremy Schumacher: Health Care around birth is super important it does affect everyone and…
Casey White: And so if that person loses their life to a perinatal mental health condition…
Jeremy Schumacher: it kind of has been Marginalized almost pushed into this Niche little box that it's much wider than that.
Casey White: because they weren't adequately screened followed up with treated the entire ecosystem suffers
Jeremy Schumacher: It does affect everybody. And yeah, it affects I would say again I'm biased mental health provider.
Casey White: And we need to do better for the ecosystems and…
Jeremy Schumacher: So like I say mental health effects everything…
Casey White: there are so many different ways.
Jeremy Schumacher: but these issues affect everything you start talking about food deserts.
Casey White: There's diaper poverty and…
Jeremy Schumacher: There's a ton of research that says simply exercise and…
Casey White: food deserts and…
Jeremy Schumacher: eating better will improve people's mental health by up to 40% and…
Casey White: all kinds of issues mental health is part of the system That needs to make a shift and…
Jeremy Schumacher: That doesn't take care of some of the actual brain chemistry issues that exist. But that's a resource thing.
Casey White: needs to be addressed in order to have healthy families and…
Jeremy Schumacher: That's a privilege thing to not have to be going from one job to another to not have to be working extra shifts just to make ends meet while you've got a baby at home.
Casey White: I think at the end of the day, we all can agree that Healthy Families matter.
Jeremy Schumacher: There's all these factors that play into being able to do just sort of Baseline healthy things as part of your recovery let alone no, I don't feel great.
Casey White: good point
Jeremy Schumacher: Somebody told me to get a therapist but I'm exhausted. I am trying to make ends meet. I don't have time to research that. I Googled somebody and they're not in network with my insurance. So guess I won't do that like throwing more work to the mom or the new parents who just had a baby doesn't often solve the issue.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
00:30:00
Jeremy Schumacher: so a little bit of a segue here, but you mentioned Going through your own process as a parent with perinatal mental health.
Casey White: It definitely doesn't and that's the benefit of the piece of our program. Is that if A birthing person is going to send one email.
Jeremy Schumacher: I would assume they're tied but what was your experience with that and then kind of working with the organization?
Casey White: We want it to be to us…
Jeremy Schumacher: How did that become kind of a shift for the work that you do?
Casey White: because from there we can say this person takes your insurance. We've let them know that you're going to call. And that takes all of that. When am I going to do this? I need to make five calls before I find someone that's gonna take me and get me in. It takes all that away and there are too many barriers in our mental health system and too many of those barriers or disproportionately impacting people who may have fewer resources or in underserved communities. And so the more that we can shatter those barriers and open up doors and cut steps out. the healthier our entire Community will be
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: yeah, so it's interesting My connection to mount sense of Health Initiative starts before I even had my son. I was a news reporter and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: I did a story about the organization right when it started and you do this story every day. So okay story off to the next interesting issue, so…
Jeremy Schumacher: Mm-hmm
Casey White: then a few years later, I had my first son and I was always this woman who wanted babies I didn't care about wedding. I didn't care about that. So if I had baby names picked out when I was 15, so I was thrilled. And then I had this baby in my arms. And hri It felt way more terrifying it was full of intrusive thoughts. It was full of panic attacks that I didn't realize were panic attacks…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: until I was eight weeks postpartum sitting in a therapist office.
Casey White: I couldn't be away from him. I had to be holding him at all times. He got a sniffle when he was three weeks old and my husband had to call his parents to come and sit with me because I couldn't sleep because I couldn't let go of my baby.
Casey White: there's so many I see them in episodes because like you said your brain forgets so much and I just see this time in these little episodes of panic attacks and Down moments and really my worst moments. Fast forward and come to find that indeed there are terms in the air and we're not sure but could kill your baby. So it was very interesting to wash the world kind of. but My husband did ask me that question. Are you Finally one night and the answer was no and then I made that call to my sister-in-law and she said okay you need a therapist and I knew that Mom says a health initiative existed. Join me where I was in that OCD journey and go welcome to hand sanitizer land. It's nice to see you.
Casey White: 
Jeremy Schumacher: He yeah,…
Casey White: I went on the website. I looked through the list of therapists and
Jeremy Schumacher: I think we had a pandemic maybe my wife and…
Casey White: I found the therapist
Jeremy Schumacher: I and…
Casey White: who I still see today,
Jeremy Schumacher: so, learned a lot.
Casey White: Without question.
Jeremy Schumacher: From her perspective as a mom as somebody…
Casey White: I consider myself a lucky one that I knew about this resource.
Jeremy Schumacher: who gave birth with our first kid and she had a much different birth plan for our second kid and…
Casey White: I transitioned careers into nonprofit life and…
Jeremy Schumacher: all of that planning kind of went out the window…
Casey White: they had another kid and…
Jeremy Schumacher: because we found out we were pregnant that first week of March in 2019.
Casey White: then this job got posted to work with Mom since a health initiative and it was just the perfect fit for our family and my…
Jeremy Schumacher: So we were honestly traveling and…
Casey White: the perfect fit for my passion. yeah, and…
Jeremy Schumacher: just got home right before stuff shut down. And then yeah,…
Casey White: so the rest is history and…
Jeremy Schumacher: like no vaccine.
Casey White: here I am and…
Jeremy Schumacher: No, nothing. Everything was still brand new throughout her full pregnancy.
Casey White: get to support other moms and birthing people going through…
Jeremy Schumacher: We were in the hospital both masked no other visitors like it was just so different than our first kid.
Casey White: what I experienced and it's really An incredible honor to be part of someone's journey in this way.
Jeremy Schumacher: So I think it's just one of those things where I talk about it a lot with people we're like making a plan is really helpful, but it is just a starting point because sometimes a baby arrives early sometimes stuff happens with a pregnancy where we need to adjust our plan and adapt like having the plan reduces anxiety. Not that we rigidly or…
Casey White: so a pre-pandemic baby by nine months, And I think…
Jeremy Schumacher: dogmatically stick to the plan.
Casey White: think if you can have support You will be more successful. I think it's
Casey White: so Yes, just barely and so interestingly I had OCD and it was really And so nine months into my postpartum Journey we get this pandemic thing where All of my greatest fears came true one panic attack that I had pre-paintemic was that there were germs in the year that were going to kill my baby. fast think that's a great opportunity to have a therapist in your corner whether you're seeing them regularly or not. But if you have established a relationship with someone early on in pregnancy, or as you're preparing to have a child if planning is part of your journey. you can then navigate those shifts with someone who is a third party who is outside who has all the tools and skills and certifications to guide you because Every step of parenting and becoming a parent feels pretty overwhelming. Maybe that's just me. Maybe not for everyone but a lot to it and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
00:35:00
Casey White: clear in that way, whether it's social support and you're having a conversation with a friend who's already had a child or it's a therapist, whatever is accessible to you is a good option, but having something in place is important as early in your pregnancy as you can establish it.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, and even I have discoveration with clients often because with miscarriage I deal with couples who are using something like IVF or taking fertility treatments. it's a very common thing that is also stigmatized deeply but even just a plan from when are we telling people we're pregnant are we doing that right away? We're excited. We want to share but also first trimester was where we're most likely to experience something like a miscarriage and so having those conversations and I think connecting about it with your support system with your people with other moms who have gone through it and getting some different perspectives like the more information We Gather in that process the more informed of a decision we can make and I think that helps people set a more realistic plan versus the sort of fairy tale.
Jeremy Schumacher: Social media friendly here's our birth plan. And here's our nice neat crib and look at my beautiful baby and that's not posting about your baby that's spitting up at three in the morning the weird things they get in their first six months of life as they build immunities and get weird rashes and all this stuff. That's super normal, but people don't talk about so you panic because why is my child covered head to toe in this thing? Do I need to go to the hospital like that stuff again that information's out there. We just don't always have those discussions.
Casey White: Absolutely, and I will say again to social media is credit that it always deserves it. there's a couple that just experienced a perinatal loss and they put it out there. they have a big social following and they put it out there and I think Five ten years ago, you might not have seen that but I think the discussions are out there. It's happening and we're all able to use these tools that can be seen as damaging as a positive opportunity for connection.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. yeah, I did want to ask you about social media not to put you on the spot, but …
Casey White: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: what are some of the pros and cons because obviously you mentioned mom's Facebook groups and stuff like that that can be lovely and wonderful for community space and also I'm gonna throw some shade here. You can be some of the non-scientific in Central Oils to treat our babies ills type stuff that ends up being quite dangerous.
Casey White: All of the above is true. It can be a really great spot for connection and it can be a really tough spot and sort of as a broad statement if it feels icky to you and it doesn't feel good to you. It's not a spot for you and I think we can all use that message unfollow the person that doesn't make you feel good. If you're comparing yourself to others on online social space. It's not a healthy space for…
Jeremy Schumacher: I
Casey White: And that's So we have our online only peer support group. That is a Facebook group and people do ask …
Jeremy Schumacher: I
Casey White: why do you do that? those places can be so Icky first of all, you have to be invited you have to message us and we have to know What you're going through on just a very basic level to admit you to that group and it is moderated. So that's one way we sort of.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Casey White: Try to mitigate some of those slippery slopes of social media including. Certainly, people will reach out and be like I have this. Cure all fixed thing for you. And that's when our moderators will send a message and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: hey that's not an evidence-based option. You can always direct people to us if they are looking for an answer, please don't do that here. And so it can be we know …
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: that's why these protections are in place. But it's also a great way for people to connect when a lot of times in those early postpartum days. You feel very trapped in your house. How on Earth am I going to take this baby out of the house and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: feed them and connect with anyone? How do I have a conversation? My kids are three and five and it's still like pulling teeth to have a conversation with another adult more together.
Casey White: all you can Do it through your phone. And have friendships and that space it can be really powerful and connecting. and I do our social media. So I am Pro social media in that way and I think it is the way a lot of people hear about us through social media and that's the perks And I guess just everyone has to make the choice for themselves…
00:40:00
Jeremy Schumacher: I think
Casey White: what feels good and what doesn't.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, I think obviously the need for Community is so high that mental health are pro social media as well. I think it serves as such a nice Community platform for people that isn't accessible anywhere else, but we do have to balance some of that with media literacy. and it's so easy to Veer from the DSM has issues like our diagnostic manual that we're using as mental health practitioners to say the DSM has issues is different than science doesn't know what it's talking about or best practices or evidence-based practices aren't important. there's a big gap between that so I think it's not promoting experts and you need to listen and go find an expert but it is saying there's some literacy that needs to go along with making some of these decisions again. it's not just
Jeremy Schumacher: Reinventing the wheel or starting from scratch there's a lot of evidence out there. There's a lot of best practices that are pretty well established for good reason and so I think having that Balancing Act where the community building is there with getting mostly predominantly good information.
Casey White: yes, and one clue to making sure you're getting good information as if it's cited if it's a study if it's reputable, the national National Institutes of Health post their research studies, and if something can tie back to that, it's usually good and just using discretion
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: if you have questions Google it and if it a study pops up. It's probably backed by research and if it's a bunch of Reddit threads. That pop up when you search something. It may not be so research backed and that might be something that you could question more.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, and again a lot of organizations moms mental health initiative. PSI is the acronym, but I don't remember specifically.
Casey White: It's part of support International.
Jeremy Schumacher: Thank Yeah, again a lot of organizations are vetting these things will have resources pages that are updated regularly. So again, it's Not on new parents shoulders to have to figure that out and sort that. You don't need to go back to school and study research methodology to be able to do this stuff like using some of what is already out there and connecting to the resources that already exists save people a lot of time.
Casey White: Yes and pick which ones maybe you just need one on every topic. Maybe you want one mental health spot and one baby health and one, lactation and one. There are so many resources but for me. That was an anxiety spiral as a new mom is I followed all of the people and they had all of the information and I just had to learn it all and it was kind of a big cloudiness and so Not only finding reputable sources, but finding an amount of those that isn't going to overwhelm One or…
Jeremy Schumacher: I yeah.
Casey White: maybe that are what you need and you can unfollow the rest never feel bad about unfollowing. That protection your space in the social world and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: it's not easy to do that because it's digital and fast.
Jeremy Schumacher: and I think As parents it's ongoing you're recovery process posts. Birth is ongoing your child's development between zero and two. I'll just say zero or five is insane. Literally, it's insane the amount of growth they go through.
Casey White: bananas
Jeremy Schumacher: In that level. So you're getting so much information because each developmental stage looks a little different and If you don't have a newborn you don't need to keep reading newborn stuff. You don't need to keep following newborn specific information. It's okay to move to that. sort of next stage, but it's a lot because there's a lot that happens between zero and two even zero and five just the brain development is crazy
Casey White: Yes and each shift. I would say to people who experienced a parenting natal mental health condition. We hear a lot that as your kids shift you might have a little down in your mental health journey and That's normal. it's hard to go through all these changes with them and it's overwhelming but healing isn't linear so, even if you're feeling great at two years. There still might be some things that are shifting and changing and that's okay. There's nothing wrong with you. Parenting is hard. Speaking to myself a little bit right now.
00:45:00
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. no, I think that's But I think that's and…
Casey White: It's okay. It's okay.
Jeremy Schumacher: that's typical again. I think it's difficult to do all of this stuff. it's difficult to take care of your own mental health to be a good role model to be a good partner to be a good parent. To exercise occasionally and eat healthy foods it's an insane amount of expectation we have on each individual person in our modern society.
Casey White: And it's good to ask for Whatever that looks like.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yeah.
Casey White: You and I are gonna say mental health support because here we are.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes, we are on and…
Casey White: but Whatever,…
Jeremy Schumacher: Community like yeah.
Casey White: it looks like yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: It takes a village was one of the few cliches that I'll bring up and be like, yeah, there's a lot of wisdom in that and figuring out what your village looks like is really helpful.
Casey White: Yes, and knowing today you get to build your own village. You don't necessarily have to have the village that. is perfected to you whether it's like your family of origin or a social group that you've had previously that just isn't fitting your life anymore…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: If there's something that you need it's okay to go out there and look for it. It's okay to make changes that fit your family as it grows.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: So much transition happens with social support. If you're the first person in your friend group to have kids or you're the last person in your friend group to having kids changes a lot of those social dynamics for who hangs out with you. How often when you feel like hanging out all that stuff. So yes, there's so many different variables that go through transition period
Casey White: And that can bring up family of origin stuff. I know it does for a lot of people and it goes Steve every corner of your life as we've previously mentioned shifts a little bit and…
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and
Casey White: just building a village that makes sense for Point in your life that you're in. is so protective
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: now that your kids are a little bit older. Working for mmhi. What do you do nowadays to take care of your mental health? How do you self-care? What is cultivating Joy look like in your life. How do you kind of navigate that you're Mental health adjacent, so you're working with a lot of people who are going through maybe different crises or different transitions in their birthing process. So how do you take care of yourself while you're doing this work?
Casey White: It's something I'm learning all the time and working on I've learned apparently, I like exercise. I thought for years that I didn't but it actually makes you feel good, which I think is very rude. So trying to incorporate more of that because apparently we're supposed to do that. I like to paint my nails. I've tried to do that every week because it's just something that gives me time to myself.
Casey White: Listen to books. I know. it's
Jeremy Schumacher: I just had this conversation with the client. I think literally yesterday it came up this week for sure where I talked about grooming is actually backed by a lot of research that it is beneficial for our mental health if you look at it from A ritual and a control perspective. It's something that we control pretty much start to finish which something like having a baby or having a newborn isn't always something we control so grooming can be really helpful. And I think it's something that Again, we might lose sight of it for kind of in that mode where we're sleep deprived and we're trapped in the house and we don't want to look nice because the baby's gonna puke on us. Anyway, it's one of those things we might lose but a lot of research shows just basic grooming behaviors are really highly ritualized in mammals and their things that reduce our anxiety pretty quickly.
Casey White: It makes a lot of sense. I mean we have to take care of ourselves and that's literally the physical act of taking care of yourself. It's not some abstract Do a three hour Yoga Retreat. that's slightly hard to fit into life.
Jeremy Schumacher: right
Casey White: But can you put a face mask on when you're brushing your teeth or paint your nails Break your hair. Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. yeah, paint your nails brushing your hair is scientifically validated as a way to reduce your stress like yeah.
Casey White: if you have the urge to brush your hair just do it. You're taking care of yourself.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because it's one that slips my mind a lot as a therapist.
Casey White: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: But there's a lot of research that back set up. It's such a relatively accessible thing for people that think about your childhood that might be fond memories of somebody combing your hair or your dad teaching you how to shave or whatever that looks like for people they're all these different ways. We're grooming is part of our community and also is really soothing for our own brains paint your nails. It's good for your mental health.
00:50:00
Casey White: I like that someone needs to borrow that slogan and I know there are plenty of people who will hear this and roll their eyes and be like take care of myself shouldn't be self care and it's like I think we have to take it in small bites do your best with the time and…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: the energy and the resources that you have a spa days not gonna be accessible to everyone. So if what you have is brushing your hair painting your nails and asking to do so perhaps without your child near you that's just about anything you can do without your kid needing you in that moment is going to be really beneficial.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, I spent so much time in therapy with new parents talking about it is okay to ask for help and people want to know if you need food people want to know. How they want to help we're in Wisconsin that Midwest nice people don't want to bother you but they want to be helpful.
Casey White: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: So if you have that plan if you can communicate to them, it'd be helpful. Can I drop my kid off while I go grocery shopping? I think so many people struggle with feeling selfish about that aunt's uncle's grandparents other parents want to help and build that community and collaborate with you on how to be helpful It's good for your kids too. It builds their Village to have more people who care for them and show them love regularly.
Casey White: without question
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, but really hard I don't think it's regional but I think it's probably worse than Wisconsin that Midwest Nice Kicks in…
Casey White: Yes.
Jeremy Schumacher: where we don't want to bother people.
Casey White: And everywhere in a society in a culture as a whole that. emphasizes Independence and You…
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Casey White: you're supposed to do it by yourself, but historically we're not supposed to do this by ourselves. That's how it's been for a hundred years.
Jeremy Schumacher: That's a weird social construct.
Casey White: 
Jeremy Schumacher: That's not based on anything. Yeah. that's Yeah.
Casey White: Ask for the help you need you're worthy of it. You deserve it.
Casey White: You deserve to thrive.
Jeremy Schumacher: yeah, and it's good for your kids. that's my big selling point for a lot of people the more helpful healthy wonderful people that you're child experiences in their life. The better it is for your kid. we know that that's backed by research too like a healthy Community around your kid is good for them. You don't have to do all of the parenting. It's okay to have other parents ants uncles mentors coaches all those people play an important role in our development.
Casey White: Yes email when you look at older people one of the Determinants of longevity is Social Circle. So by building that Village for what feels like ourselves to protect ourselves it's also building that Social Circle and that longevity for your child to know that they are loved and cared for and you'll meet your friends through that. Social Circle building and they'll become friends with your kids and it turns into this. big snowball of love Big snowballs call me Elsa.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah.
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah. Yes Casey, if people want to find out about Mom's mental health initiative events on the calendar stuff upcoming. How do they connect?
Casey White: Yes, our website is Mom's g. Our Instagram page is at Mom's mental health initiative. We're on Facebook as mom's mental health initiative and in October. We have a great event coming up. It's called breaking down the silos and it's aimed at breaking barriers in our Healthcare System to increase equity and access to pairing needle mental health care, so we'd love to see People from across the community come and join us and talk to one another and work toward a more. Equitable barrier-free system
Jeremy Schumacher: Yeah, yeah, that sounds lovely. We'll have all those links in the show notes where people can find it. I'm a big advocate for the resource directory you guys have on your website again,…
Casey White: Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Jeremy Schumacher: that's lovely that helps so many folks again that vetting process being done for people saves them so much time. So as a professional who makes a lot of referrals like that's Great space. We'll have a link to the resources tab as well for folks. So Casey thanks for taking the time to chat with us today.
00:55:00
Jeremy Schumacher: And to all our wonderful listeners, thanks for tuning in again. We will be back next week with another new episode. Take care everyone.
Meeting ended after 00:54:58 👋